Violence in Venezuela (HEAVY trigger warnings)

[Comrade Chernov]

(TW: Violence, Blood, Death, Gore)

In the midst of a media blackout in the country, peaceful protests against the Venezuelan government have turned into bloodbaths as police and Tupamaros (Marxist-Leninist organizations supportive of the Venezuelan government) opened (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOMolXNJLTo) fire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrpihh6mewQ) on (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3DS2uxihGk) the protestors.

Most of what I've heard about this has been from various tumblr accounts of people living in Venezuela (which I've decided not to link due to the graphic images within, though I can provide them upon request), as well as from the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2014/02/12/world/americas/ap-lt-venezuela-protests.html?ref=americas&_r=1) and El Pais (http://internacional.elpais.com/internacional/2014/02/12/album/1392245581_702382.html#1392245581_702382_139224784 6).

I just...I have no words for this. I'm heartbroken for those poor people, and I'm extremely disappointed in our comrades in the Venezuelan government.

[Marshal of the People]

The people protesting are enemies of the people. I expect they are hired mobs purchased for by the bourgeois. If they aren't they are probably reactionaries.

I realize that the Venezuelan government isn't socialist but if it falls a more right wing one will take it's place making it even harder for the Venezuelan people.

[adipocere]

This seems like a repeat of 2002 snipers shooting into protesters and the rabidly anti-Chavez media editing the footage to frame Chavistas for it. Here is the story according to Venezuelanalysis. (http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/10346)
I think it is very important to really understand what is/has been going on in Venezuela before you rush to conclusions.

[Marshal of the People]

http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/10346

This seems correct.

The fascists (and other right wing groups) started it and are evil liars and criminals.

If I was in charge of Venezuela there would not be a problem like this, ever.

[Bala Perdida]

I did hear about anti-government and pro-government protests in Venezuela. Although I heard about it on Univision, which is a bourgeois propaganda machine which targets the hispanic/spanish speaking community, so the opposition was glorified but I'm not sue to what extent. The pro-government protesters where also barley reported on.

[Dialectical Wizard]

Who are those protesters? Are they right-wingers?

[Marshal of the People]

Who are those protesters? Are they right-wingers?Yep. Usually Far-right.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Yep. Usually Far-right.

Sorry, do you have any evidence to support this?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I have not been able to find coverage thats isn't obviously biased one way or the other. Venezuela news is frustrating as hell to try to follow. On one hand it's a large capitalist government so it's bound to have rampant corruption that can lead to unrest like what's currently going on in every country on the planet to some degree, on the other hand staged violence has been used by foreign governments in the past so who knows.

[Eleutheromaniac]

Yep. Usually Far-right.

I don't think that just because they are violently opposing a failing government necessarily assumes that they are far-right.

[adipocere]

Sorry, do you have any evidence to support this?
The link MoP provided is evidence. Try reading it.

Apparently it is not just opposition protests, but also support rallies. This is fairly frequent in Venezuela. All sides are out there demonstrating in mass practically every month. Violence is nothing new, it is only reported in the west when it can be feasibly blamed on chavistas.

The enthusiastic elements in opposition are known to be far-right, particularly the the ones responsible for burning Cuban clinics & murdering people during periods of political tension and so on.


Eleutheromaniac: I don't think that just because they are violently opposing a failing government necessarily assumes that they are far-right. The government is not failing, it's under siege. Of course not everyone opposed to Maduro is far-right, however the opposition is right wing, so it logically follows that people out there burning shit and shooting people are far-right.

[Red Commissar]

Even US media acknowledges the protests are largely organized and directed by the opposition which is pretty right-wing and getting more desperate as they can't achieve their goals through the legislature or winning municipalities. There's a lot of frustration from them in particular that they couldn't find any real signs of fraud in the last election where Maduro only barely won over Caprilles, and that has pretty much prompted the opposition to be as obstructionist and sensationalist as possible since then. We're nearing almost a year since Maduro's election in April and Venezuela has pretty much since then been hobbled by protests under the direction of the opposition and worsening economic indicators.

That being said, the protests are fueled by problems on the ground- shortages of basic stuff, inflation's effects, crime, etc. which is how they've been able to get more than the usual political stooges out in the street. The government of Venezuela has been having issues with inflation in particular which it has blamed on "economic warfare" being waged by the opposition with the help of the mostly conservative politicians and businessmen who've settled in the US and by extension the US state department as the US government has never seen eye-to-eye with Chavez's Venezuela.

How valid these claims of an economic warfare ala Allende's Chile are I don't know. There is a vested interest by the opposition to engage in this so as to create public support where it has otherwise failed to do so on its own virtue, as well as foreign media to continue smearing Venezuela anyway they can, but at the same time I think there are also problems on Maduro's end. There's only so much you can blame the opposition for before you have to start looking within your own ranks for the same problems. The opposition is feeding off that and is growing stronger. I don't think this will bring down Maduro by any chance, but if the Chavista's are going to look to their political survival they're really going to have to get their game in order.

I believe it may also show the necessity for people there struggling for a better future to not invest so heavily in a capitalist government. They need to begin making themselves more autonomous and independent, as it stands much of the local communes and militias are basically extensions of the PSUV rather than the interests of the people.

Depending on how long the media will be fascinated by this current cycle, it's going to be a nauseating time with emigres here in the states doing their media rounds about how oppressive Venezuela has been to them.

[Comrade Chernov]

The sources I've found much of the info on, as I said, are tumblr blogs from mainly teenagers living in Venezuela. They don't really display political affiliation, but I'm more likely to take their word over the media's word, because kids aren't likely to be biased. And they're scared. They're really fucking scared.

[adipocere]

The sources I've found much of the info on, as I said, are tumblr blogs from mainly teenagers living in Venezuela. They don't really display political affiliation, but I'm more likely to take their word over the media's word, because kids aren't likely to be biased. And they're scared. They're really fucking scared.
You are right that teenagers and young people are less likely to be biased, however they are easier to manipulate if they have no other reference. The vast majority of media in Venezuela is like Fox news on steroids. People don't have to trust a source to be influenced by it. Just look at how poorly informed Americans are on just about everything if you want to see how effective biased media can be. I frequently have to listen to liberals rage on about Fox and yet when it is all said and done, their opinions really aren't substantially different. Of course, pointing that out causes as much outrage as eating a baby.

Anyway - Aside from that, what are they scared of exactly? The protesters, the government, a coup?

[boiler]

Right-Wing Forces Provoke Chaos Across Venezuela

Merida, 12th February 2014 (Venezuelanalysis.com) – Violent opposition groups attacked government buildings and civilians, and clashed with police and government supporters following peaceful marches commemorating the Day of Youth.

The violence has claimed two deaths and left 23 injured across the country. Thirty arrests have been made according to government sources.

Venezuela commemorates the day of the youth on 12 February each year in memory of the role of young people in the decisive independence battle in La Victoria in 1814. Today marked the bicentenary of the historic battle.

Caracas

In mid afternoon President Nicolas Maduro delivered a speech in Caracas, praising the morning’s marches as peaceful. However, shortly later one Chavista was reported to have been killed amid clashes involving opposition activists. Juan Montoya, also known as Juancho was shot. He was a community leader in the Chavista stronghold, Barrio 23 de Enero. This afternoon National Assembly head Diosdado Cabello condemned the shooting, and accused armed right-wing groups of “hunting down” Montoya.

“They are fascists, murderers, and then they talk about dialogue,” Cabello stated, referring to armed right-wing activists. The AN head called for calm, and urged against reprisals.

Violent opposition groups also attacked the attorney general’s office in Carabobo Park, Caracas. Photographs of the scene indicate the building’s exterior was damaged.

A building belonging to the government owned Fundacaracas organisation was also attacked by opposition groups. A few hours later the mayor of Caracas’s Libertador municipality, the PSUV’s Jorge Rodriguez also reported that the judicial offices in Chacao, Miranda, were also attacked. Later in the night the National Guard were deployed to the state owned VTV offices in Los Ruices. Disturbances had been reported in the area, though no further details were available at the time of writing.

In the evening, President Nicolas Maduro stated that violent opposition groups had also set fire to five police patrol vehicles. He also stated that a group of around two hundred violent activists had attempted to attack Miraflores Palace after the attorney general’s office.

Merida

After weeks of small, violent protests in Merida, there was a large march by government supporters in one part of the Andean city, and a larger march by opposition supporters elsewhere. Both were observed to be peaceful by Venezuelanalysis. However, violence began shortly after the opposition march finished. Clashes took place in Merida’s streets after individuals began burning garbage in intersections and erecting barricades.

A larger confrontation took place at a major intersection in the city’s north. Witnesses told Venezuelanalys.com that they saw men in balaclavas occupy a number of apartments, and fire live ammunition into the streets below. Riot police blocked the intersection. Hundreds of government supporters gathered a few hundred metres behind the police lines.

“We’re defending the city centre,” one supporter told Venezuelanalysis.

The Pro-Government March

At the pro-government march in the morning, Roger Zurita told Venezuelanalysis.com, “I’m worried about confrontations but I’m marching because today is the day of the youth, to celebrate the battle of La Victoria, not because of the opposition march. We have to organise ourselves around our values. We’re celebrating with happiness and peace the youth who struggle, our independence, the struggle for political power. Today we have an anti-imperialist youth and people are waking up, we’re not going to fall for the right wing’s games.”

“I’m marching for various reasons, mainly because I still believe in the project of our country, which still hasn’t been fully realised, but if we work just a bit harder we can do it, we have a lot to do. Also because it’s important to show that we are many, there are a lot of people who believe in this. What’s been happening in Merida is sad, regrettable. It’s a shame that they [violent sectors of the opposition] can’t propose anything without violence. We shouldn’t respond with violence. But the only proposal they seem to have is to get people into power who have never cared about the people, they just want to sell our country to the [US] empire,” Raquel Barrios told Venezuelanalysis, referring to the last four days of violence in Merida.

“I’m marching to commemorate the battle of La Victoria, but they [the opposition leadership] are manipulating the youth of Merida and parts of the opposition, they want to put an end to everything we’ve achieved, but they won’t be able to, because we’re peaceful people but ready for any necessary battle,” said Douglas Vasquez told Venezuelanalysis.

“Basically I’m marching to rescue Merida. We can’t let Merida be in the hands of violent people. I’m a teacher at the University of Los Andes (ULA), and I feel very ashamed that the recent violent incidents are mostly promoted by people from the ULA, who hope to create discomfort in the people in order to overthrow a consolidated and democratically elected government,” Katania Felisola said to Venezuelanalysis.

The Opposition March

The opposition march started at the ULA and went down the Americas Avenue after a last minute redirection.

Fernando Peña, a chemical engineering student at the ULA told Venezuelanalysis’s Ewan Robertson, “The students have felt the need to show themselves against [the goverment], because they have taken students prisoner in Mérida and Táchira just for expressing their right to protest. Right now feelings are very tense, because the people are tired of the government, [and] the students are the centre of the mobilisation throughout the country. The people now deeply disagree with the decisions that the government makes…living in Venezuela has become ever more difficult”.

Jan Carlos Lopez, worker in the Medical Faculty of the ULA told VA, “Some of the main reasons [for the march] are the shortages that are being experienced in the country, criminality, and insecurity. There isn’t an organisation that can protect us at night time so that we can go out. That’s what we’re asking for, security so that all Venezuelans can live in peace.”

Other opposition marchers told Robertson that they blamed the government for the violence, for “sending out motorbikes to attack students”.

In the violence after the marches, two people have been reported as injured, both shot in the legs. One of those was Jilfredo Barradas, a state government photographer.

“It’s a show, everyone knew it would turn out like this, it was planned,” one Merida activist told Venezuelanalysis, referring to the violence both in the Americas intersection as well as on Avenue 3.

Further, Gustavo Bazan told Venezuelanalysis, “On Friday they [violent opposition sectors] wanted to store Molotov cocktails [in the apartment where Bazan lives] and break up bricks in order to have rocks. I stepped out of line a bit and I told them that here they weren’t protesting against the government but rather against their own neighbours. I challenged them to take off their balaclavas and said to them they weren’t capable of coming over and having a conversation. They jumped over the fence and three of them started to beat me up. A friend and a building security guard saved me. I filmed them while they prepared the Molotov cocktails”.

Other cities

Electricity minister Jesse Chacon informed through his Twitter account that “violent groups” surrounded an electric substation in San Cristobal and threw Molotov cocktails at it.

According to AVN there was also violence in Aragua and Carabobo states “which left material damage”.

The governor of Carabobo state, Francisco Ameliach said that “violent groups burnt a truck with liquid asphalt”. Ameliach alleged that the head of the MUD in the state, Vicencio Scarano had financed the crimes.

The minister for internal affairs, Miguel Rodriguez Torres, said that violent groups had tried to set the Aragua state government building on fire.

Official response

Tonight Attorney General Luisa Ortega Diaz informed the public that so far there have been a total of two deaths, 23 injured, and thirty arrests. Along with Montoya, student Basil Da Costa died after suffering a gunshot. She added though that public lawyers were investigating and visiting hospitals to determine the exact number. According to Maduro the two men were both shot in the head, “like the sharp shooters who murdered [people] on 11 April [2002]”.

Ortega also said that four CICPC (Scientific Crime Investigation Body) vehicles were set on fire, as well as other private vehicles.

Regarding the march in Caracas, she said “they were guaranteed security from Plaza Venezuela to the Attorney General’s Office, there was nothing to impede them”.

Maduro also warned tonight that “whoever protests or marches without permission will be detained”.

“These are trained groups who… are prepared to overthrow the government in a violent way, and I’m not going to allow this, so I call on Venezuela to be peaceful,” Maduro said.

Foreign minister Elias Jaua alleged that Leopoldo Lopez was the “intellectual author of the deaths and injuries in Caracas”.

The Ecuadorian government emitted a statement today condemning the “acts of violence and vandalism by irresponsible members of the opposition”.

“We hope for the prompt reestablishment of social peace in our brother country and because respect for the government and its legitimately constituted institutions has precedence”.

Opposition statements and response

“This a call put out by the students and supported by the Democratic Unity [MUD opposition coalition], this march on the day of the youth is taking place when the government is repressing, with jail, with torture,” Leopoldo Lopez told CNN yesterday, in anticipation of today’s events.

“The government has an agenda of violence and as they control the monopoly [sic] over communication in Venezuela they hide it…the call that has been made is to be in the street,” he said, blaming the violence over the last week in Merida and Tachira on the government.

Speaking tonight on Noticias 24, Lopez blamed the national government for today’s violence and deaths. “Who is generating the violence? The government… repression by the national guard, the police,” he said.

Some of the top tweets by the opposition at the moment also blamed the Tupamaros groups. The Tupamaros are now quite small, but are often blamed for any violence that takes place. They support the national government.

“They (Tupamaros) are animals and they should all die,” wrote Daniel Garcia.

“Hitler, come back and put all the Tupamaros in gas chambers” wrote Andreina Leonett.

“When the first student dies all the streets of Venezuela will burn,” wrote Jose Gamboa.

Over the last week far right opposition leaders such as Leopoldo Lopez have been calling for people to “go out into the street” in order to achieve an “exit” of the national government.

MORE…

http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/10346

[Comrade Chernov]

You are right that teenagers and young people are less likely to be biased, however they are easier to manipulate if they have no other reference. The vast majority of media in Venezuela is like Fox news on steroids. People don't have to trust a source to be influenced by it. Just look at how poorly informed Americans are on just about everything if you want to see how effective biased media can be. I frequently have to listen to liberals rage on about Fox and yet when it is all said and done, their opinions really aren't substantially different. Of course, pointing that out causes as much outrage as eating a baby.

Anyway - Aside from that, what are they scared of exactly? The protesters, the government, a coup?

They're scared because seemingly harmless people are being shot by the police for (to them) no apparent reason. As one roughly put it (and I'm paraphrasing here): "People are being killed in the street and Maduro is on TV saying 'nothing is happening, everything is okay'? Fuck you, Maduro!"

That's the extent to which they know what's going on.

This is why the Left needs to focus on education and inclusiveness of the people in government more often, because stuff like this breeds discontent, and such a popular-based movement as Communism needs public support and revolutionary fervor.

[Raquin]

From what I pieced together these protests were uneventful and peaceful until most of the people went home and the remaining hooligans began a riot and assassinated a prominent Chavista community leader, Juan Montoya(also a life-long friend of President Maduro). In revenge, the MRT Marxist-Lenisist paramilitary/party went hunting for these rioting imperialist puppets. They bagged a couple of kills and seriously injured like a dozen. Good for them. I've been reading up on the MRT("tupamaros") and I'm really liking their work in the past. For example, they would enter the most crime-infested neighborhoods that cops would be to afraid to venture into and riddle drug dealers, drug distributors and other human garbage with bullets. They even used to kill corrupt cops involved in the drug trade.

Real shame Maduro and his government restrained them and prevented them from killing at least a few more ringleaders. Parasites like that only understand violence and fear.

[hatzel]

I've been reading up on the MRT("tupamaros") and I'm really liking their work in the past. For example, they would enter the most crime-infested neighborhoods that cops would be to afraid to venture into and riddle drug dealers, drug distributors and other human garbage with bullets.

Who needs cops when you're your own cop...

[boiler]

From what I pieced together these protests were uneventful and peaceful until most of the people went home and the remaining hooligans began a riot and assassinated a prominent Chavista community leader, Juan Montoya(also a life-long friend of President Maduro). In revenge, the MRT Marxist-Lenisist paramilitary/party went hunting for these rioting imperialist puppets. They bagged a couple of kills and seriously injured like a dozen. Good for them. I've been reading up on the MRT("tupamaros") and I'm really liking their work in the past. For example, they would enter the most crime-infested neighborhoods that cops would be to afraid to venture into and riddle drug dealers, drug distributors and other human garbage with bullets. They even used to kill corrupt cops involved in the drug trade.

Real shame Maduro and his government restrained them and prevented them from killing at least a few more ringleaders. Parasites like that only understand violence and fear.

This group sound interesting. Do you have any links about them?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

The story seems to indicate that it was left-wing armed groups which are pro-government which did the shooting, not the pigs. It's more than possible that there *were* armed leftists who shot at the protest because of the sometimes violent and extreme political divisions between right and left. It's no secret that there are pro- and anti-government civilian groups which are armed.

The Venezuelan economy is still basically Capitalist, and it's the instability of market forces that are motivating the economy. The middle classes don't like populist social democracy because it cuts into profits.

Really, saying "Maduro is an evil dictator" and "Our comrades in Venezuela are under attack by a sinister right wing" are simplistic analyses of the situation. I think people should be critical and level headed when reading the statements coming out of groups that are sympathetic to the government and groups which oppose it. Both sides are social and political elites with particular factions who need to appeal to the people to preserve their power and authority.


In revenge, the MRT Marxist-Lenisist paramilitary/party went hunting for these rioting imperialist puppets.

Yeah I totally trust a mob of angry armed vigilantes to kill the right guy.


They bagged a couple of kills and seriously injured like a dozen. Good for them. I've been reading up on the MRT("tupamaros") and I'm really liking their work in the past. For example, they would enter the most crime-infested neighborhoods that cops would be to afraid to venture into and riddle drug dealers, drug distributors and other human garbage with bullets.

This gets the award for "most reactionary nonsense on RevLeft outside of OI in a month"

[Igor]

For example, they would enter the most crime-infested neighborhoods that cops would be to afraid to venture into and riddle drug dealers, drug distributors and other human garbage with bullets.

oh its amazing when self-titled socialists take the coppers' job over and help them crack down and attack poor neighbourhoods

[Dagoth Ur]

Big surprise that we have support for right wing hooligans on Revleft. Reminds of when all of revleft was abuzz promoting Svoboda.

[Taters]

Big surprise that we have support for right wing hooligans on Revleft.
Hey guess what? Some people aren't cool with the government and its supporters shooting into crowds. How that translates to support for "right wing hooligans" I'll never know.

Reminds of when all of revleft was abuzz promoting Svoboda.

Who?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

This is why we don't support (or, support extremely critically) the likes of Chavez and Maduro in the first place.

You get to a stage where you end up having to choose between a dead-end social-democratic government, a right-wing opposition backed by the USA, and in the middle a leaderless mass of people whose intentions and politics are unknown and unpredictable.

For what it's worth I always admired Hugo Chavez as a person of great charisma, leadership and personal courage, but this is what you get when you invest everything in one man; you lose to mortality and end up disappointed, and in a complete mess.

[CyM]

This is a right wing coup attempt. Comrades need to be careful before jumping on board.

The revolution has gone on too long, over 10 years, and still has not abolished capitalism. This means the economy is still in the hands of the millionaires, but the profit motive is restricted by reformist measures like price controls. This is actually causing economic chaos, and the right are using it to gain a mass base out of the frustration.

The only solution is mass nationalizations, and finishing the revolution. Comrades should keep in mind that counterrevolution can gain a mass base. So even having mass demos does not discount the fascist nature of the opposition organizing this.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

[Comrade Chernov]

By the same token, though, measures must be taken to ensure that the government of Maduro can, in the process of this finishing of the revolution, keep skeptics at bay (or, even more preferably, convince them that the government's way is the right one). Suppress support for the right-wingers from above, and weaken their support base at the bottom by showing the people that Socialism is the way to go.

[Per Levy]

Big surprise that we have support for right wing hooligans on Revleft. Reminds of when all of revleft was abuzz promoting Svoboda.

oh hey the user who supports the racist, homophobic, nationalistic "communist" party of ukraine is back.

Raquin
I've been reading up on the MRT("tupamaros") and I'm really liking their work in the past. For example, they would enter the most crime-infested neighborhoods that cops would be to afraid to venture into and riddle drug dealers, drug distributors and other human garbage with bullets.

ah ja, killing some poor peeps while not harming pigs and rich people, sounds like the best group ever.


They even used to kill corrupt cops involved in the drug trade.

so they killed the "bad" pigs, not the "good" pigs and they stoped killing pigs in general, good when the left is so pig friendly, with leftist like that the bourgoisie really doesnt have to be afraid


Parasites like that only understand violence and fear.

seems like its also the only thing you understand. internet hardmanship as its worse.

[Per Levy]

The people protesting are enemies of the people. I expect they are hired mobs purchased for by the bourgeois. If they aren't they are probably reactionaries.

I realize that the Venezuelan government isn't socialist but if it falls a more right wing one will take it's place making it even harder for the Venezuelan people.


If I was in charge of Venezuela there would not be a problem like this, ever.

the council communist who supports a bourgois goverment, the bourgois state and talks a lot about "the people" cause "the people" totally doesnt include the bourgoisie and the petit-bourgoisie.

"The people protesting are enemies of the people."

also the people protesting are also part of "the people".

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The revolution has gone on too long, over 10 years, and still has not abolished capitalism. This means the economy is still in the hands of the millionaires, but the profit motive is restricted by reformist measures like price controls. This is actually causing economic chaos, and the right are using it to gain a mass base out of the frustration.

At this stage, given the lack of a revolutionary direction of the Chavez/Maduro governments, it is really difficult to call this period a 'revolution', in the sense that the social relations, and social structure, of capitalist Venezuela are very much intact. Reversion to free-market capitalism would not require significant alteration of current social relations.


The only solution is mass nationalizations, and finishing the revolution. Comrades should keep in mind that counterrevolution can gain a mass base. So even having mass demos does not discount the fascist nature of the opposition organizing this.

1. I don't think there is much point in pushing for further nationalisations before seeking to change the social base of society. Rather, it should be the other way round. Property relations should be changed, and the bourgeoisie eliminated. That goes way beyond mere nationalisations, which only places more power in the hands of the reformists who have failed to come close to Socialism in over a decade.

2. Why are we still using cold war language like 'fascist'? I don't get it. It's not a buzzword. Fascism is a particular ideology. I'm fairly sure that, odious though the right-wing elements in Latin America tend to be, they are generally not fascists, but disciples of the Reagan-era faith in Milton Friedman's supply-side economics, i.e. "make the people scream".

[Tim Cornelis]

I haven't read enough about the situation to judge who is to blame, but it certainly wouldn't be surprising if the government, which has grown increasingly repressive, or a pro-government group killed rioters or protesters.

Incidentally, there's no revolution in Venezuela, and no revolution to complete. The Chavista administration is to the right of Bernstein.

Incidentally II, I don't necessarily disagree with leftist groups acting against criminal gangs in impoverished neighbourhoods as some here do. Many of the members of these criminal gangs, which are lumpen-bourgeois syndicates of sorts, are worse, in terms of violence, than cops. Protecting poor communities from these gangs, as the autodefensas in Mexico, is not necessarily a bad thing. But as described here, it's dubious.


Of course not everyone opposed to Maduro is far-right, however the opposition is right wing, so it logically follows that people out there burning shit and shooting people are far-right.

No it doesn't logically follow as ideological affiliation is not deduced from action. Liberals are perfectly capable of rioting without turning fascist so to speak.

[Bala Perdida]

Parasites like that only understand violence and fear.
Seriously what the fuck! Even if they're anti-chavista, they are a mass and most of them probably don't even want a right wing regime but are unhappy with the government. This is the same thing the israeli government says about arabs. This is a tactic of discrimination, a genuine tactic of exploiters.
There's been a surge of conservitism going through my area, but they just dislike Obama. Seriously that's nearly bourgeois mentality of "you're either with is or against us."

[MaximMK]

Like other comrades pointed out they are just right-wingers who want to abolish the anti-us left wing government. I see no reason to support them

[CyM]

Seriously what the fuck! Even if they're anti-chavista, they are a mass and most of them probably don't even want a right wing regime but are unhappy with the government. This is the same thing the israeli government says about arabs. This is a tactic of discrimination, a genuine tactic of exploiters.
There's been a surge of conservitism going through my area, but they just dislike Obama. Seriously that's nearly bourgeois mentality of "you're either with is or against us."

And what about when that wave of anti-obama sentiment gets manipulated into racism? Do you support it because it's a mass wave?

Or do you recognize it as reactionary?

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

[Comrade Chernov]

Is there anything that would force such a manipulation within Venezuela, though? I could've sworn the media was state-owned.

Protests against the inaction of Maduro's government in regards to existing problems =/= being reactionary.

[CyM]

Is there anything that would force such a manipulation within Venezuela, though? I could've sworn the media was state-owned.

Protests against the inaction of Maduro's government in regards to existing problems =/= being reactionary.

Most of the media remains in the hands of the oligarchy. There are 3 or 4 pro gov stations, the rest are all in the hands of people directly involved in the faking of the government violence news in the 2002 coup.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

[adipocere]

Is there anything that would force such a manipulation within Venezuela, though? I could've sworn the media was state-owned.

Protests against the inaction of Maduro's government in regards to existing problems =/= being reactionary.

Media In Venezuela: Facts and Fiction (http://upsidedownworld.org/main/content/view/2059/1/)

It's a little dated, but not a lot has changed except that Globovision - the one that was assisted the coup in 2002 - was apparently sold in 2013 to an insurance company.

Protests about scarcity (and everything else) that are part of an overt strategy of undermining a government by the same groups that are causing the scarcity is worse than reactionary. These are essentially privileged people demonstrating about a problem they are causing. Certainly not all of them are in on it, but it's no big secret either.

Is there anything that would force such a manipulation within Venezuela?
A (http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/9687) resounding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Venezuelan_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat_attempt) YES. (https://www.greenleft.org.au/node/53422)

[Bala Perdida]

And what about when that wave of anti-obama sentiment gets manipulated into racism? Do you support it because it's a mass wave?

Or do you recognize it as reactionary?
I would recognize it as reactionary, but most of the anti-obamas are just playing this game because they like calling the president incompetent. I can't see these people becoming racist though, they have very liberal social values and don't understand conservatism. When they flip flop to a republican government, they'll go back to being anti-[insert president here] liberals.
Also since they are still a mass of naive uninformed people, I see no reason to fire on them. People that do are similar to Soviet-Nazi Germany rape apologists.

[Bala Perdida]

Also I saw this recently uploaded video from truthloader. This explains the situation okay... it doesn't seem to biased.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ_d7YPxU7o

[khad]

Yeah I totally trust a mob of angry armed vigilantes to kill the right guy.
As much as you'd trust a professional police force to do the same? Rock and a hard place, maybe?

[Rusty Shackleford]

dickhead cops aren't going to help this situation...

[CyM]

Also I saw this recently uploaded video from truthloader. This explains the situation okay... it doesn't seem to biased.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJ_d7YPxU7o

Dude, even the fucking thumbnail says "no a la invasion cubana". What the fuck does that tell you? Tens of thousands of cuban doctors have been brought in in trade with cuba, to provide free healthcare, which did not exist for most before chavez. The extreme wing of the opposition have been burning clinics, and stirring up anti cuban hatred. Cuban doctors have been lynched and beaten in the streets.

Wake the fuck up.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

[tachosomoza]

but most of the anti-obamas are just playing this game because they like calling the president incompetent. I can't see these people becoming racist though, they have very liberal social values and don't understand conservatism.

This is false.

When people in Kentucky were shown literature describing the health care reform plan as "Obamacare", they hated it. When the literature referred to the Affordable Care Act, they loved it. Most of the people who you hear ragging on Obama about doing or continuing the same things that Bush did (and they loved him for doing) simply hate him because he's black and they don't think blacks should be president. They like calling him incompetent, they think he is incompetent because he is black, not because they actually understand anything he's done. That's how racism works, and American style modern conservatism and the free market social Darwinian libertarianism that is so in vogue now is inextricably linked to racism.

[Raquin]

oh its amazing when self-titled socialists take the coppers' job over and help them crack down and attack poor neighbourhoods
"self-titled" as opposed to what? Igor-titled? Next time I'll ask you before daring to call myself a socialist if I'm worthy for that title, oh great king of the socialists.

Anyhow, I understand that talking out of your ass is a very precious personal trait of yours but could you abstain from that for a little while? I don't know why in Igor-speak, liberating terrorized poor neighborhoods from narco-syndicates is translated to "cracking down and attacking poor neighborhoods". Those poor, poor, slum-dwellers, what will they do without their beloved drug overlords. My heart aches for their loss.


This group sound interesting. Do you have any links about them?
Only in Spanish.

[Raquin]

Yeah I totally trust a mob of angry armed vigilantes to kill the right guy.

I'm sure third-world Marxist-Leninists are deeply upset that they have not been able to win the trust of a Western leftist. Heartbroken, even.

[MaximMK]

We shouldn't rush off supporting protests just because they are protests and some cops came out. That doesn't make the people protesting progressive or revolutionary these guys are just american reactionaries who want US influence and more liberalism i mean cmmon its well known the US doesn't like PSUV and they openly hate them, that's proof enough that PSUV is anti-imperialist and progressive. Poverty has been lowered, and Venezuela like the video said was ranked to be the best socio-economic country regarding equality. So what if they shut down some pro-US media and their propaganda. Ofcourse they are gonna stage some shit now and than. I am 100% for the government and see no purpose in supporting the pro-US opposition.

[Comrade Chernov]

We're less supporting the protestors, more criticizing the government of Venezuela for OK-ing the killing innocents when it wasn't necessary to do so.

[Bala Perdida]

Dude, even the fucking thumbnail says "no a la invasion cubana". What the fuck does that tell you? Tens of thousands of cuban doctors have been brought in in trade with cuba, to provide free healthcare, which did not exist for most before chavez. The extreme wing of the opposition have been burning clinics, and stirring up anti cuban hatred. Cuban doctors have been lynched and beaten in the streets.

Wake the fuck up.

I'm sorry when did I ever deny that there are some roiters among the protesters. Also the guy holding the sign shows just how naive they are, and he's not hurting anyone. People like that don't deserve to be fired on. Did you even bother to watch the video before you posted this?

[Bala Perdida]

This is false.

When people in Kentucky were shown literature describing the health care reform plan as "Obamacare", they hated it. When the literature referred to the Affordable Care Act, they loved it. Most of the people who you hear ragging on Obama about doing or continuing the same things that Bush did (and they loved him for doing) simply hate him because he's black and they don't think blacks should be president. They like calling him incompetent, they think he is incompetent because he is black, not because they actually understand anything he's done. That's how racism works, and American style modern conservatism and the free market social Darwinian libertarianism that is so in vogue now is inextricably linked to racism.
Are you seriously trying to say that everybody that turns on Obama and then calls themselves a conservative does it because he's black? I don't live in Kentucky, I live in California. I saw these people "vote him into office" and then turn on him months later. I personally know some of these people and I can assure you they're not racist. To insist they are just because of the action is like the bourgeois rally tactic of "your either with us, or your with the terrorists".
Seriously, why are people so black and white about these complex issues?

[Comrade Chernov]

It's entirely possible to dislike Obama while not being a racist. I don't see anyone on this forum praising him, for instance. We all dislike Obama because Obama is a neoliberal imperialist, just like every president America's had since 1990.

[Tim Cornelis]

I'm sure third-world Marxist-Leninists are deeply upset that they have not been able to win the trust of a Western leftist. Heartbroken, even.

Why do Marxist-Leninist(-Maoists) always feel the need to make some appeal to emotion and the third world whenever a group of their liking is criticised?

Incidentally, what is your definition of third world? I wouldn't consider Venezuela a third world country at all.

[ArVictoriLa]

In Spanish but fairly self explanatory:
http://www.telesurtv.net/articulos/2014/02/14/manipulacion-de-imagenes-y-guerra-psicologica-en-venezuela-y-las-redes-776.html

[Raquin]

Why do Marxist-Leninist(-Maoists) always feel the need to make some appeal to emotion and the third world whenever a group of their liking is criticised?

Why are you asking me? I'm neither a Marxist-Leninist nor a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist.


Incidentally, what is your definition of third world? I wouldn't consider Venezuela a third world country at all.
Venezuela is a third world country by virtue of not being a part of the Western-Imperialist bloc. If you wanna be scientific about it, the best measure I guess would be a country's human development index, or the inequality-adjusted human development index.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

As much as you'd trust a professional police force to do the same? Rock and a hard place, maybe?

Generally I don't trust cops OR paramilitaries playing cops to expense justice in the street with guns. It's nice to have some kind of display of evidence before a public tribunal. Both are open to assholes making a wrong assumption based on any number of criteria. I don't want to say that there aren't situations where such actions might be necessary, but I think we should be highly skeptical of any armed group such as that. I think the only way to protect people from anti-social behavior is to use a force which is really accountable to the people, and I don't see how a small clique of self-appointed "vanguardists" would be any more accountable than coppers (certainly we have seen before how self-appointed armed "vanguardists" start acting like coppers once they seize political power).


I'm sure third-world Marxist-Leninists are deeply upset that they have not been able to win the trust of a Western leftist. Heartbroken, even.

Yeah good job at totally missing the fucking point. I don't care what they think, what I care about is some "leftist" with a gun taking it upon themselves to judge who is dangerous, guilty, and worth killing, and not only getting away with it but having other leftists celebrate it.



Anyhow, I understand that talking out of your ass is a very precious personal trait of yours but could you abstain from that for a little while? I don't know why in Igor-speak, liberating terrorized poor neighborhoods from narco-syndicates is translated to "cracking down and attacking poor neighborhoods". Those poor, poor, slum-dwellers, what will they do without their beloved drug overlords. My heart aches for their loss.


I don't think he's defending narcotics gangs at all. I can disagree with the presence of drug traders in a neighborhood and also oppose unaccountable vigilantes targeting them.

Also, drug gangs are symptoms of deeper social problems. Having armed leftists drive around shooting off suspected drug gang members does not fix those deeper social problems. It's certainly not going to help either when people go around calling criminals "human filth" and "human garbage" with is an attitude to crime which just reeks of the most pernicious forms of bourgeois morality. It's a way of making one's membership of the lumpenproletariat a moral issue and not a social and economic issue, and it leads to actions like folks just killing any criminal because of their crime and judging them as people lacking virtue. It's a dangerous way to go down and it's basically the leftwing version of the worst kind of rightwing ideologies relating to crime and policing.

[Tim Cornelis]

Why are you asking me? I'm neither a Marxist-Leninist nor a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist.


Venezuela is a third world country by virtue of not being a part of the Western-Imperialist bloc. If you wanna be scientific about it, the best measure I guess would be a country's human development index, or the inequality-adjusted human development index.

But then Serbia, Malaysia, Georgia, Macedonia, Albania, Ukraine, Armenia, Bosnia would be third world countries as well, as per the HDI.

[Raquin]

But then Serbia, Malaysia, Georgia, Macedonia, Albania, Ukraine, Armenia, Bosnia would be third world countries as well, as per the HDI.
Serbia, Malaysia, Georgia, Macedonia, Albania, Ukraine, Armenia and Bosnia are third-world countries.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Venezuela is a third world country by virtue of not being a part of the Western-Imperialist bloc. If you wanna be scientific about it, the best measure I guess would be a country's human development index, or the inequality-adjusted human development index.

Yeah I don't think that's a good characterization of "3rd world". Then Colombia is a "1st world country" and Venezuela is a "3rd world country" even though Venezuela actually has more infrastructure and wealth per capita. Granted during the Cold War there was the classification of "1st" "2nd" and "3rd" world as referring to the NATO, Warsaw Pact and Non-Aligned/pro-Chinese blocks respectively but the understanding of the term has changed substantially.


Serbia, Malaysia, Georgia, Macedonia, Albania, Ukraine, Armenia and Bosnia are third-world countries.

You can't conflate the living standards of Serbians and Ukrainians with those in Chad and Bolivia.

Also you are contradicting yourself - Georgia is clearly a part of the "western Imperialist bloc" (as opposed to the "Russian Imperialist bloc") so therefore both is and is not "third world".

[Light of Lenin]

The White Power "Left" is "skeptical" of Maduro and supports right-wing fascist murderers against the democratically elected government of Venezuela, yet supports the Fascist Regime in Bogota murdering revolutionary guerrillas waging People's War.

The White Power "Left" is just an appendage of the Democratic Party apparatus.

[Queen Mab]

The White Power "Left" is "skeptical" of Maduro and supports right-wing fascist murderers against the democratically elected government of Venezuela, yet supports the Fascist Regime in Bogota murdering revolutionary guerrillas waging People's War.

The White Power "Left" is just an appendage of the Democratic Party apparatus.

What on earth is the "White Power Left"?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

The White Power "Left" is "skeptical" of Maduro and supports right-wing fascist murderers against the democratically elected government of Venezuela, yet supports the Fascist Regime in Bogota murdering revolutionary guerrillas waging People's War.

The White Power "Left" is just an appendage of the Democratic Party apparatus.

Yeah, that makes all kinds of sense, thank you for your kind and good contribution to this thread and the fruitful discussion it will surely spawn, you are totally not spewing nonsenes out your arse.

[Light of Lenin]

What on earth is the "White Power Left"?

You and your kind. The political line of the White Power "Left" is determined by the needs of US imperialism. The White Power "Left" will say whatever is required of them by their imperialist masters. They serve the White Power.

[Tim Cornelis]

Serbia, Malaysia, Georgia, Macedonia, Albania, Ukraine, Armenia and Bosnia are third-world countries.

Really? I suppose drawing the line somewhere is always arbitrary, but these are generally not regarded as third world countries. Is Croatia a third world country, Argentina, Chile, Lithuania, Qatar, Greece, Czech Republic, Russia, Slovenia?

[Comrade Chernov]

Though your BB coding skills are impressive, I don't see what that post has anything to do with this thread, LoL.

[Raquin]

Yeah I don't think that's a good characterization of "3rd world". Then Colombia is a "1st world country" and Venezuela is a "3rd world country" even though Venezuela actually has more infrastructure and wealth per capita. Granted during the Cold War there was the classification of "1st" "2nd" and "3rd" world as referring to the NATO, Warsaw Pact and Non-Aligned/pro-Chinese blocks respectively but the understanding of the term has changed substantially.
Colombia isn't a part of the Western-Imperialist bloc. It's a third-world vassal of that bloc.


You can't conflate the living standards of Serbians and Ukrainians with those in Chad and Bolivia.
Doesn't mean average Serbians and Ukrainians don't have considerably shittier living standards than the Germans or the Americans.


Also you are contradicting yourself - Georgia is clearly a part of the "western Imperialist bloc" (as opposed to the "Russian Imperialist bloc") so therefore both is and is not "third world".
Georgia is a vassal of the Western imperialist bloc, it's not a part of it. And there is no such thing as the "Russian imperialist bloc".

[Comrade Chernov]

I'd say that Russia is imperialist, certainly, but I wouldn't say it has an entire bloc. It's aligned with China, North Korea, and Iran, sure, but it's not a tight-knit alliance.

I'd say Serbia and Ukraine are second-world. Third-world is poverty-stricken, usually with shortages of supplies/lack of even decent-quality living conditions/etc. Ukraine and Serbia aren't that. Venezuela isn't that.

[Queen Mab]

You and your kind. The political line of the White Power "Left" is determined by the needs of US imperialism. The White Power "Left" will say whatever is required of them by their imperialist masters. They serve the White Power.

So the political line of the left wing of the Communist International was determined by US imperialism. Okay.

[Per Levy]

The White Power "Left" is "skeptical" of Maduro[quote]

in other words, certain people dont support the head of capitalist states.

[QUOTE]and supports right-wing fascist murderers against the democratically elected government of Venezuela

no one has "supported" right wingers but who cares about facts, also "democratically elected government" cause communists care about bourgois elections.


yet supports the Fascist Regime in Bogota murdering revolutionary guerrillas waging People's War.

also no one supported the "democratically elected government" of colombia but, again, who cares about facts. but i dont know why you denounce the "democratically elected government" of colombia as "Fascist Regime" since the colombian goverment was elected in bourgois elections just like the venezuelan goverment.


The White Power "Left" is just an appendage of the Democratic Party apparatus.

says the person who supports capitalist states and who is so high on bourgois elections. seriously with your positions you could easaly be part of the left wing of the democrats.

[Comrade Jacob]

Someone should've told them that this is the kind of thing that happens when you only go so for in your anti-capitalism. These shootings are wrong.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Light of Lenin = LoL.

Just sayin'. :rolleyes:

[Comrade Chernov]

Light of Lenin = LoL.

Just sayin'. :rolleyes:

I already mentioned that earler. ;)

[human strike]

From what I pieced together these protests were uneventful and peaceful until most of the people went home and the remaining hooligans began a riot and assassinated a prominent Chavista community leader, Juan Montoya(also a life-long friend of President Maduro). In revenge, the MRT Marxist-Lenisist paramilitary/party went hunting for these rioting imperialist puppets. They bagged a couple of kills and seriously injured like a dozen. Good for them. I've been reading up on the MRT("tupamaros") and I'm really liking their work in the past. For example, they would enter the most crime-infested neighborhoods that cops would be to afraid to venture into and riddle drug dealers, drug distributors and other human garbage with bullets. They even used to kill corrupt cops involved in the drug trade.

Real shame Maduro and his government restrained them and prevented them from killing at least a few more ringleaders. Parasites like that only understand violence and fear.

Go home, officer, you're drunk.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Colombia isn't a part of the Western-Imperialist bloc. It's a third-world vassal of that bloc.

...

Georgia is a vassal of the Western imperialist bloc, it's not a part of it.

Feudalism finished 200 years ago. This is a third-worldist kind of position which is at best dated and at worst completely misleading. The fact is that nations don't exploit nations, the bourgeoisie exploits the proletariat. There is a Georgian and Colombian bourgeoisie which has interests parallel to the interests of the American bourgeoisie. Colombia is the "periphery" but it is not a "vassal".

How does one actually distinguish between a "vassal" and a country which is not a "vassal"?



Doesn't mean average Serbians and Ukrainians don't have considerably shittier living standards than the Germans or the Americans.


Theres more to 1st world/3rd world than just living standards.

Also in terms of infrastructure and other ways of looking at it, you can't really call these countries "third world". They just have wealth inequality - perpetuated, incidentally, by local elites, not the US or EU


And there is no such thing as the "Russian imperialist bloc".

The whole conflict between Russian and EU domination of the Ukraine sort of shows that Russia is an imperialist country vying for control of other nations.


I'd say that Russia is imperialist, certainly, but I wouldn't say it has an entire bloc. It's aligned with China, North Korea, and Iran, sure, but it's not a tight-knit alliance.


I wouldn't consider Iran or North Korea or China a part of a "Russian bloc" - perhaps Armenia, Belarus, Syria and various ex Soviet countries in Central Asia.

[Rurkel]

Feudalism finished 200 years ago. This is a third-worldist kind of position which is at best dated and at worst completely misleading. The fact is that nations don't exploit nations, the bourgeoisie exploits the proletariat. There is a Georgian and Colombian bourgeoisie which has interests parallel to the interests of the American bourgeoisie. Colombia is the "periphery" but it is not a "vassal".
As much as I may sympathize with your position, that's not a particularly strong argument. I'm pretty sure the poster you're replying to meant by "vassal" what you mean by "periphery" anyway. The parts of Georgian bourgeoisie who cooperate with the US one are definitely in the inferior position in this relationship, despite not minding their subjugation.

Russia is probably an imperialist-wannabe. I don't think it has a reliable "block", although it wants to acquire it.

[Comrade Chernov]

I wouldn't consider Iran or North Korea or China a part of a "Russian bloc" - perhaps Armenia, Belarus, Syria and various ex Soviet countries in Central Asia.

The entire point of my post was saying that Russia doesn't have a "bloc".

[La Guaneña]

Just gonna re-post what I said in the other VZL thread:

There was a 3-5 milion people strong rally in support for the government and the popular measures (~10% of the countries population), and the only people who give a shit about these small, insignificant 500 people strong fascist inflated rallies are Globo, RCTV widows and yall people.


Just sayin'. ;)

[Os Cangaceiros]

I don't know why in Igor-speak, liberating terrorized poor neighborhoods from narco-syndicates is translated to "cracking down and attacking poor neighborhoods". Those poor, poor, slum-dwellers, what will they do without their beloved drug overlords. My heart aches for their loss.

The people within the Venezuelan state who've been responsible for turning Venezuela into a major drug trafficking hub won't like that ;)

Of course, according to Maduro Venezuela's drug problems are merely the result of the Colombian "fascists" next door. It's all very convenient.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

For example, they would enter the most crime-infested neighborhoods that cops would be to afraid to venture into and riddle drug dealers, drug distributors and other human garbage with bullets. They even used to kill corrupt cops involved in the drug trade.

How about no. Wtf?

As to the OP, holy shit, hold the phones, stop the presses, workers are rebeling against capital. :ohmy:

[A Revolutionary Tool]

How about no. Wtf?

As to the OP, holy shit, hold the phones, stop the presses, workers are rebeling against capital. :ohmy:

Workers are rebelling against capital? Really? Under the leadership of the capitalist classes opposition? It's workers rebelling for capital, under the leadership of the opposition working people would be set back, they would not be moving forwards.

[Per Levy]

Workers are rebelling against capital? Really? Under the leadership of the capitalist classes opposition? It's workers rebelling for capital, under the leadership of the opposition working people would be set back, they would not be moving forwards.

venezuelan workers also would not move forward if they throw their support behind a social-democratic gouverment that just organizes capital a slightly bit different than usual.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

venezuelan workers also would not move forward if they throw their support behind a social-democratic gouverment that just organizes capital a slightly bit different than usual.

Yeah because poverty wasn't cut in half, extreme poverty wasn't cut in half, illiteracy wasn't wiped out, healthcare wasn't improved exponentially, etc, etc. Oh right, they were. Can we at least be realistic here and realize that gains have definitely been made for Venezualan workers over the last decade and a half and that if they want to continue to move forward to socialism it's not going to be by being crushed by this opposition whose leadership consists of western backed business people who would like to take any gains made by workers away. Do you not understand how devestating that would be?

[motion denied]

Yeah because poverty wasn't cut in half, extreme poverty wasn't cut in half, illiteracy wasn't wiped out, healthcare wasn't improved exponentially, etc, etc. Oh right, they were. Can we at least be realistic here and realize that gains have definitely been made for Venezualan workers over the last decade and a half and that if they want to continue to move forward to socialism it's not going to be by being crushed by this opposition whose leadership consists of western backed business people who would like to take any gains made by workers away. Do you not understand how devestating that would be?

^This. So much.

Comments itt show a fundamentally abstract notion of class struggle and its dynamics. My man Lukács has a word or two about it:


For Lenin as a Marxist ‘the concrete analysis of the concrete situation is not an opposite of “pure” theory, but – on the contrary – it is the culmination of genuine theory, its consummation – the point where it breaks into practice’

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Thank you, I think it's true that there needs to be a revolution in Venezuela, that this balancing act can't last forever. But if you're a working class person in Caracas who realizes the need for a workers revolution, for the dictatorship of the working class, you should realize backing these right-wing opposition movements that are trying to overthrow the government are only going to make conditions for that fight harder, you want these elements of society as demoralized as possible not strengthened.

[Comrade Chernov]

This (http://alittlesilly.tumblr.com/post/76723450722/this-is-what-is-hapenning-in-venezuela-people-get) doesn't look like fascism to me. (To be fair, I can't speak spanish and therefore don't know what the signs mean.)

Personally, I'd prefer to have the perspective of any comrades who are actually from Venezuela, rather than western POVs. I'm skeptical of the media on both sides; leftist media is just as capable of propaganda as rightist media.

[La Guaneña]

This (http://alittlesilly.tumblr.com/post/76723450722/this-is-what-is-hapenning-in-venezuela-people-get) doesn't look like fascism to me. (To be fair, I can't speak spanish and therefore don't know what the signs mean.)

Personally, I'd prefer to have the perspective of any comrades who are actually from Venezuela, rather than western POVs. I'm skeptical of the media on both sides; leftist media is just as capable of propaganda as rightist media.


Comrade just google statistics that show how much the standard of living has raised for venezuelan workers, look up how much land has been distributed.

I'm not from Venezuela, but I do have lots of personal contacts with militants from the country, and social movements have flourished in the cities and in the rural areas.

Now just look at the last demonstration of support to the Bolivarian Government, with 3-5 milion people depending on sources. This is nearly 10% of the country's whole population, can you imagine what this means?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTXDe_Bk-co

Meanwhile, the leaders erupting from these latest "student protests" have clear ties with the fascist media, foreign capital and the CIA itself:

http://www.popularresistance.org/is-us-supporting-oligarch-coup-attempt-in-venezuela/

These protests do not come alone, they come amidst a big process of economic and mediatic war being waged by the most reactionary and powerful sectors of the ruling class, that manages product shortage and information filters.

And meanwhile, while the undemocratic and unpopular government puts 6 figure rallies on the streets, the opposition manages small groups, and has to fake a popular uprising: http://drdawgsblawg.ca/2014/02/constructing-venezuela-protests-a-photo-gallery.shtml

[motion denied]

This (http://alittlesilly.tumblr.com/post/76723450722/this-is-what-is-hapenning-in-venezuela-people-get) doesn't look like fascism to me. (To be fair, I can't speak spanish and therefore don't know what the signs mean.)

Personally, I'd prefer to have the perspective of any comrades who are actually from Venezuela, rather than western POVs. I'm skeptical of the media on both sides; leftist media is just as capable of propaganda as rightist media.



Oddly enough, Venezuela is a western country too.

The first picture, where we see a young woman crying to a cop, is from Bulgaria.

And it's not like they would show that many pictures of hospital-burning mobs, is it?

[Comrade Chernov]

@La Guaneña: Exactly. That's what I'm not getting. So much has been done for the people of Venezuela, and yet so many of them feel disenfranchised to the point of protesting. And I'm wary of a government that stands by while said government's supporters are killing those who peacefully protest. Were these protests happening in, say, the United States, and people were being shot? We'd call it police brutality and fascism.

@Scab: I wouldn't consider Venezuela to be western. And do you have any sources that say that there ARE hospital-burning mobs?

[motion denied]

@Scab: I wouldn't consider Venezuela to be western. And do you have any sources that say that there ARE hospital-burning mobs?

How is Venezuela not western? Anyway...

'Hospital-burning' was one of the many wonders that the not-so-democratic opposition committed after Maduro got elected. At the time, Capriles was not much of a democrat or pacifist.

You have to understand that Venezuelan opposition has tried at least three coups. history is repeating itself, if in 2002 they manipulated footage of snipers shooting at people, now they're saying that peaceful protesters are being taken down. And yet, they need to use fake pictures to prove it.

The main 'left' tendencies (namely the PSUV, PCV, CWI and even some anarchists) see that the protests have nothing to offer to the working class; quite the contrary.

An interesting link: http://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/10360

Oh also annoying quote problems again.

[La Guaneña]

@La Guaneña: Exactly. That's what I'm not getting. So much has been done for the people of Venezuela, and yet so many of them feel disenfranchised to the point of protesting. And I'm wary of a government that stands by while said government's supporters are killing those who peacefully protest. Were these protests happening in, say, the United States, and people were being shot? We'd call it police brutality and fascism.

@Scab: I wouldn't consider Venezuela to be western. And do you have any sources that say that there ARE hospital-burning mobs?

Comrade, class dynamics are complex. Venezuelans government is pushing lots of popular programs, but that doesn't mean that they satisfy 100% of the problems existant.

Also, there are people who lose a lot in this and get angry, namely the high and certain middle sectors of the bourgeoisie, besides some of the urban petty-bourgeoisie, allthough small shopowners are sympathetic.

These people are very powerful, and by powerful I mean own TV stations, newspapers supermarket chains like Walmart and other large retail stores. They use this power to create popular insatisfaction beyond what would be normal in an advancing 3rd world country, such as product shortages and plain lies on TV.

This adds to the daily problems any government in Venezuela has to face, namely lack of industrialization and infrastructure. This means the country has to rely on a comprador class to buy everything from abroad, and this class controls supply.

And finally, there is cop violence going on. But you have to understand what kind of opposition they are dealing with. Last year, when the right lost the election to Maduro, the mobs led by the same party stormed the streets and burned the PSUV HQ, tried to invade and burn one of the Medical Centres created by Chavez in a public, free system that has thousands of cuban doctors working. The chavistas and communists, while defending the building had one or two militants killed by gunfire.

There were also other reports of gunfire by paramilitary right wing groups, and this is something necessary to understand: in venezuela, like colombia, not only the State is armed, but also left and right wing political groups.

It's not just a bunch of unarmed students, you see?

[Comrade Chernov]

@Scab: I guess we have different definitions of western. When I say western I generally am referring to those countries referred to as "The West", meaning those who actively support/contribute to American imperialism. Venezuela certainly isn't that.

From what I've seen - and I'm talking mainly what I've seen from those within Venezuela - there hasn't been much of that. Certainly, it's not as simple as the left is portraying it to be. Then again, when is something like this ever as simple as anyone portrays it to be?

@La Guaneña: Yes, I realize that the protesters did bad things. Last year. They've done nothing thus far that's worthy of the response that's been given. Socialists - especially those as influenced by populism as the Chavezites (for lack of a better term) - ought to seek to listen to the people of their countries and work out any and all grievances that they can. The people are the backbone of socialism, and the people are those who socialists ought to serve. As you've said, yes, the bourgeois are playing their cards in this game, but it's also sections of the proletariat, and if the proletariat isn't satisfied with their own movement then there's something wrong here.

[La Guaneña]

@La Guaneña: Yes, I realize that the protesters did bad things. Last year. They've done nothing thus far that's worthy of the response that's been given. Socialists - especially those as influenced by populism as the Chavezites (for lack of a better term) - ought to seek to listen to the people of their countries and work out any and all grievances that they can. The people are the backbone of socialism, and the people are those who socialists ought to serve. As you've said, yes, the bourgeois are playing their cards in this game, but it's also sections of the proletariat, and if the proletariat isn't satisfied with their own movement then there's something wrong here.[/QUOTE]

Well, to me it's pretty clear that all of these problems can't be solved without a socialist revolution. First off, there is this duel with the bourgeoisie, who is creating economic difficulties to piss off people. Second, they are already in a country with a full history of poverty and opression. 12 years of heading a bourgeois state sure can't solve those as well.

And these sectors of the proletariat and petty-bourgeois are absolute minorities on the streets right now, but their political affiliation does not only depend on satisfaction. Just look at how many poor, starving people in the USA will still vote on the 2 main parties once agains. This is due to educational and mediatic control, and will only be broken with the expropriation and democratization of the media.

Meanwhile, the big reactionary TV monopolies will keep on pouring fuel on the fire, telling lies and inciting the people to revolt against a government that is better for them.

[Comrade Chernov]

The fact that police and Tupamaros are firing into the protester crowds certainly isn't helping much either, I imagine.

[La Guaneña]

The fact that police and Tupamaros are firing into the protester crowds certainly isn't helping much either, I imagine.

And even though it might not be exactly the same people as the last year mobs, they are from the same sectors of society, affiliated to the same political organizations, using the same tactics...

This year the Tupamaros, JCV and FANB just didn't let them get a big advantage before reacting.

[Comrade Chernov]

Another thing I've heard is that the initial protests this year were about a 14-year-old girl who was raped; the police didn't seem interested in helping her, so fellow students gathered to protest about that, and then it all got out of hand.

[La Guaneña]

Another thing I've heard is that the initial protests this year were about a 14-year-old girl who was raped; the police didn't seem interested in helping her, so fellow students gathered to protest about that, and then it all got out of hand.

Got a good source on that? And who raped her, cops? If it was, I ain't excusing them or anyone else for that kind of attitute.

[cyu]

http://actualidad.rt.com/expertos/eva_golinger/view/110489-documento-evidencia-plan-desestabilizacion-venezuela-golinger

an internal document of three organizations from Colombia and the United States reveals a plan against the Venezuelan government to provoke violence with the intention to justify international intervention.

The document, entitled 'Venezuelan Strategic Plan' was prepared by the Democratic Internationalism Foundation Colombian president Alvaro Uribe Velez, along with the Foundation Center First Thought Colombia and U.S. consulting firm FTI Consulting.

As part of the plan, the authors propose "maintain and increase sabotage affecting services to the population, particularly to the electrical system, enabling blame the government for alleged inefficiency and negligence." Recently, Venezuelan authorities arrested several people involved in sabotage the electrical system and in late September, President Maduro expelled three officials from the U.S. Embassy in Caracas for alleged role in destabilization plans.

this internal document, the product of a meeting of right-wing sectors of Colombia and Venezuela, along with representatives of the U.S. government, demonstrates the destabilization plans in motion against the Government of Maduro.

the document recommends "a military insurrection" against "the Venezuelan State". Proposed "contact groups active military status and retirement to expand the campaign to play down the Government prestige within the Armed Forces. It is vital to prepare the military for a crisis and social unrest spearhead the insurrection against the government, or at least to support foreign intervention or civil uprising."

See also http://www.revleft.com/vb/violence-and-sabotage-t184805/index.html

[adipocere]

Originally Posted by Comrade Chernov
From what I've seen - and I'm talking mainly what I've seen from those within Venezuela - there hasn't been much of that. Certainly, it's not as simple as the left is portraying it to be. Then again, when is something like this ever as simple as anyone portrays it to be?
Exactly why is it that you believe that teenagers in Venezuela you communicate with on social media would be privy to some deeper truth than other, careful observers outside the country. How exactly do you think your contats get the majority of their information, if not media?
Do you think that a Tea Partier in Washington DC has a fundamentally better understanding of Obama than Democrat in Florida? Do you think that an American opinion on Obama should just be taken as gospel because the they are talking to a French person about American politics?

And furthermore, if you believe that leftist mediais so biased as to be invalid, than I think you ought to be doing some serious introspection as to why you are even a leftist.

[ArVictoriLa]

Right wing opposition protesters hanging 'Chavista' effigies:
https://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/t1/999458_577713025651975_211561927_n.jpg

[Comrade Chernov]

Got a good source on that? And who raped her, cops? If it was, I ain't excusing them or anyone else for that kind of attitute.

No legitimate source, though a venezuelan tumblr user contacted me to say that was what had sparked the protests. Most of what I've been hearing about the protests, on both sides, has been second-hand info.


Exactly why is it that you believe that teenagers in Venezuela you communicate with on social media would be privy to some deeper truth than other, careful observers outside the country.

Do you take the word of someone who lives there or someone who doesn't?

When there's news from the middle east, do you trust the word of, say, Al Jazeera over the word of CNN?


How exactly do you think your contats get the majority of their information, if not media?
Well considering they live there I assume they could...oh, I dunno...look out their windows?


Do you think that a Tea Partier in Washington DC has a fundamentally better understanding of Obama than Democrat in Florida? Do you think that an American opinion on Obama should just be taken as gospel because the they are talking to a French person about American politics?

No, because that's not an accurate comparison whatsoever. First off I highly doubt that a 15-year-old that watches anime and reads gay fanfiction (i.e. the majority of the venezuelan tumblr users who I've been hearing this stuff from) is going to be a conservative of any sort. In all likelihood they're going to have no political leaning, if they even care about politics at all. What they're going to know is that the police - the ones who, it's been rumored, don't care about their people in the first place - are shooting protesters. Do you think it's an overreaction for them to be scared of and unwilling to put trust in their government? Or are you trying to simplify everything through your Western Leftist Lenses©?


And furthermore, if you believe that leftist mediais so biased as to be invalid, than I think you ought to be doing some serious introspection as to why you are even a leftist.

Oh don't give me that bullshit. I'm not saying that leftist media is biased as to be completely wrong, but you know just as well as I do that leftist media can be inaccurate. Any ideologically-based media can be. Last year there was an article proclaiming Port Said to be the next Paris Commune because the workers had taken direct control of the port there, and then they never reported on it again. Leftist media is good for perspective, but it doesn't help much when they sensationalize everything, or if they fling the word "fascist" around every other sentence.

[Red Commissar]

TBH, the 'violence' here has been pretty tame, especially in comparison to Ukraine (especially recently) and the convulsions that are still hitting Egypt. I really don't see what's going on here as a crisis on its own, but underscoring the issues the Maduro government has in continuing the programs of Chavez.

What I worry though is that to resolve their inflation, they might decide to introduce some neoliberal reforms to appease business interests and maybe have the opposition lay off them as a result. Maduro has alerady done this I think with some adjustments to fuel subsidies.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

No legitimate source, though a venezuelan tumblr user contacted me to say that was what had sparked the protests. Most of what I've been hearing about the protests, on both sides, has been second-hand info.



Do you take the word of someone who lives there or someone who doesn't?

When there's news from the middle east, do you trust the word of, say, Al Jazeera over the word of CNN?


Well considering they live there I assume they could...oh, I dunno...look out their windows?



No, because that's not an accurate comparison whatsoever. First off I highly doubt that a 15-year-old that watches anime and reads gay fanfiction (i.e. the majority of the venezuelan tumblr users who I've been hearing this stuff from) is going to be a conservative of any sort. In all likelihood they're going to have no political leaning, if they even care about politics at all. What they're going to know is that the police - the ones who, it's been rumored, don't care about their people in the first place - are shooting protesters. Do you think it's an overreaction for them to be scared of and unwilling to put trust in their government? Or are you trying to simplify everything through your Western Leftist Lenses©?



Oh don't give me that bullshit. I'm not saying that leftist media is biased as to be completely wrong, but you know just as well as I do that leftist media can be inaccurate. Any ideologically-based media can be. Last year there was an article proclaiming Port Said to be the next Paris Commune because the workers had taken direct control of the port there, and then they never reported on it again. Leftist media is good for perspective, but it doesn't help much when they sensationalize everything, or if they fling the word "fascist" around every other sentence.

Do you always get your news/views from people who, you say yourself, have no idea about the present political situation? I mean we're supposed to trust the reporting of kids on tumblr who you say are ignorant of the present situation, that they've heard "rumors"? Excuse us if that doesn't sound like the most dependable source of information.

[Red Commissar]

With regards to coverage of the Venezuelan issues in general, you have to be very careful of what you read as sources. A lot of the "citizen reporting" tends to be done by expats residing outside the country passing along what they're hearing from like-minded relatives and friends, or directly from those individuals. Chavista supporters you don't see in English-speaking media circles making rounds- they'll usually be more in the Spanish-speaking circles- and as such will be very underrepresented in places say like reddit or tumblr frequented by American and European audiences the opposition wants to reach out to. Pretty obvious indicators of this is references to Cuba, Sean Penn (who has become the icon of supposed Hollywood Liberal support for Chavez by the opposition), and an all-around persecution complex that the media isn't fairly reporting on their situation, when quite clearly, at least in the US, the media is sympathetic to the opposition's struggle.

It is not beyond them to post outright false pictures as long as they elicit a response from the audience. For example last year in the disputed elections, a fairly popular picture that was passed around even up to reputable media in the states was the supposed burning of ballots which the opposition claimed was an example of vote rigging. It was shown afterwards that said picture was an old press photo from some years prior covering a local election and having a picture of how counted ballots were later disposed of. The only thing bad about that picture was apparently trash disposal in Venezuela still hadn't gone beyond burning. There were several other pictures that came up along the lines of showing alleged vote fraud which were shown in each case to be either from a different country, a different event, or out of context.

It says a lot that even in this current episode, the guy they've assigned to being the leader protests, Leopoldo Lopez, is someone who even puts his allies in MUD scared because he's one of those whose openly disdainful of what Chavez's government has done, whereas say Caprilles tried to cast himself as someone who'd retain the "good" aspects and be like Brazil's Lula acting as a caretaker for the social programs.

[Comrade Chernov]

Do you always get your news/views from people who, you say yourself, have no idea about the present political situation? I mean we're supposed to trust the reporting of kids on tumblr who you say are ignorant of the present situation, that they've heard "rumors"? Excuse us if that doesn't sound like the most dependable source of information.

The average 15-year-old Venezuelan anime nerd doesn't tend to have political bias. They do, however, tend to have perfectly operable legs and eyes, so I imagine they have a good idea of what's happening outside their door in their own damn country. Meanwhile, what media sources are there in the country? Either the right-wing media moguls everyone cites as supporting the protesters and calling for the downfall of Maduro's government, or left-wing media sources that are quick to deem anyone who offers the mildest critique of said government as a Fascist.

[Comrade #138672]

This article seems to be good: http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/02/18/whats-really-happening-in-venezuela/

According to this article fascism is indeed the enemy.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

The average 15-year-old Venezuelan anime nerd doesn't tend to have political bias. They do, however, tend to have perfectly operable legs and eyes, so I imagine they have a good idea of what's happening outside their door in their own damn country. Meanwhile, what media sources are there in the country? Either the right-wing media moguls everyone cites as supporting the protesters and calling for the downfall of Maduro's government, or left-wing media sources that are quick to deem anyone who offers the mildest critique of said government as a Fascist.

Really? Look around America, does your average 15 year old anime nerd have any idea what's going on right outside their door in their own damn country, especially the ones with little to no knowledge of the political situation? No, so even if they do live right on the front line I would take what they say with a grain of salt. Watching street battles from a window doesn't necessarily teach you anything other than there's two sides of a conflict. Or do you watch the videos about what's going on in Ukraine and say I support the demonstrations because the police are hitting them?

[Comrade Chernov]

Really? Look around America, does your average 15 year old anime nerd have any idea what's going on right outside their door in their own damn country, especially the ones with little to no knowledge of the political situation? No, so even if they do live right on the front line I would take what they say with a grain of salt. Watching street battles from a window doesn't necessarily teach you anything other than there's two sides of a conflict. Or do you watch the videos about what's going on in Ukraine and say I support the demonstrations because the police are hitting them?

That's exactly what I mean. The average 15 year old anime nerd would see what? Police forces shooting protesters. Police forces that serve the government of the country, the same government that the country's major media outlets have said is untrustworthy. Is the average 15 year old going to know the news is biased? No. They're going to know that it's the news, which they associate with telling the truth. The average 15 year old is going to be scared of the police, and overall, scared and distrustful of their government, the government that's been carrying out the revolution for their benefit and they don't even know it.

See the problem here?

The average 15 year old isn't a fervent Marxist-Leninist that accepts the killing of their neighbor because they were secretly a fascist collaborator or something. If we let a revolution proceed for such a long time that the first generation born under said revolution grows up with a distrust and fear for the revolutionary government, then we've sewn the seeds of our revolution's downfall. THAT is the point I'm making here; that it isn't wise for Maduro's government to so recklessly endanger their revolution in the long-term by fanatically protecting it in the short-term.

[La Guaneña]

Well, I'm a Latin American, and most 15 year old nerds I know of are usually white, middle to high class and pretty reactionary. Especially if they had a chance to take english courses and have contact with that kind of geeky stuff.

[Einkarl]

That's exactly what I mean. The average 15 year old anime nerd would see what? Police forces shooting protesters. Police forces that serve the government of the country, the same government that the country's major media outlets have said is untrustworthy. Is the average 15 year old going to know the news is biased? No. They're going to know that it's the news, which they associate with telling the truth. The average 15 year old is going to be scared of the police, and overall, scared and distrustful of their government, the government that's been carrying out the revolution for their benefit and they don't even know it.

See the problem here?

The average 15 year old isn't a fervent Marxist-Leninist that accepts the killing of their neighbor because they were secretly a fascist collaborator or something. If we let a revolution proceed for such a long time that the first generation born under said revolution grows up with a distrust and fear for the revolutionary government, then we've sewn the seeds of our revolution's downfall. THAT is the point I'm making here; that it isn't wise for Maduro's government to so recklessly endanger their revolution in the long-term by fanatically protecting it in the short-term.

I don't mean to be rude, condescending or elitist. But I feel that you're giving too much credit to teenagers and not enough to bourgeois outlets and authority. I graduated from High School last year and from my experience most were pretty reactionary and often held very sexist and homophobic positions, even the women. Young people are very susceptible to these forces.

[Comrade Chernov]

I don't mean to be rude, condescending or elitist. But I feel that you're giving too much credit to teenagers and not enough to bourgeois outlets and authority. I graduated from High School last year and from my experience most were pretty reactionary and often held very sexist and homophobic positions, even the women. Young people are very susceptible to these forces.

Young people in general indeed are susceptible, but young people who typically watch anime and read/write gay fanfiction and whatnot usually fall into the liberal-leaning "socially awkward" category rather than being sexist and homophobic. I'm still in high school, and the description I gave is the one that applies to the majority of my friends (both real-life and online ones at that).

@La Guaneña, maybe we have different definitions of reactionary - mine being far-right fascists and whatnot, liberals being (imo) their own category - but I've not met many socially awkward reactionary teenagers. I can imagine the white middle-class ones being snobby, to be sure, but not reactionary.

[∞]

This seems like a repeat of 2002 snipers shooting into protesters and the rabidly anti-Chavez media editing the footage to frame Chavistas for it. Here is the story according to Venezuelanalysis. (http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/10346)
I think it is very important to really understand what is/has been going on in Venezuela before you rush to conclusions.

The anti-Chavez propaganda exists in other states but not there. Although the protesters by and large are idiots are idiots, we cannot act like the state-owned media in Venezuela isn't at least a bit biased.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

People need to get over bias. If we discredit every source becaues it's 'a bit biased', History as a discipline wouldn't exist.

Having had a look at sources from both sides, it seems clear to me that there are indeed genuine elements to the protest (i.e. people who aren't fascists or CIA plants), but they seem to be being used by the right-wing opposition (who most certainly are backed by the CIA) for their own political ends.

It seems very strange to me that the chavistas would win 3 or 4 (admittedly close) elections in the last two years, only to be the subject of mass opposition now.

However, clearly, the close nature of the elections in recent years shows that Venezuela is a divided country; divided between the poor and the chavistas, and the middle class/elites/right-wing.

The thing about the protests is that there is no new social movement that has sprung up. Even if some new protesters such as students have joined the protests, these protests can only lead to a coup d'etat as happened in 2002. The opposition is the same cabal of CIA-backed right-wingers.

[CyM]

The workers' militias must be stepped up. The fascists should have their coup smashed. Every major workplace should be seized and put under worker's control to put a wrench in the financial gears of this coup.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

[La Guaneña]

The anti-Chavez propaganda exists in other states but not there. Although the protesters by and large are idiots are idiots, we cannot act like the state-owned media in Venezuela isn't at least a bit biased.

Yes, the state-owned media is biased, and that is great. That is great because 60-70% of the big media there is oppositionist and very reactionary.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The workers' militias must be stepped up. The fascists should have their coup smashed. Every major workplace should be seized and put under worker's control to put a wrench in the financial gears of this coup.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

Whilst i'm not inclined to disagree, it's a damning indictment of the chavista government that this demand of them only comes about when their own power is threatened!

[CyM]

Whilst i'm not inclined to disagree, it's a damning indictment of the chavista government that this demand of them only comes about when their own power is threatened!

This has been the Hands off Venezuela campaign's demand for years. This is just the right time to intensify it.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

[cyu]

http://roarmag.org/2014/02/venezuela-protests-opposition-coup/

at least two of the protesters’ main grievances have been deliberately escalated by the oligarchic elite itself: through extensive hoarding and smuggling of consumer products (giving rise to shortages and fueling price inflation) and massive speculation on the foreign currency market (pushing down the Bolívar and feeding into further inflation). This is the type of economic warfare that the US-backed Chilean opposition drew upon prior to the overthrow of Salvador Allende in 1973.

the protests have become effectively subsumed under the leadership of the most right-wing section of the opposition alliance, Mesa de la Unidad Democrática (MUD), led by Maria Corina Machado and Leopoldo López. the most anti-democratic faction of the oligarchic elite have shown themselves to be intent on restoring their class privilege at any costs, even if it requires casualties among the general population.

it is publicly known that leading Venezuelan opposition groups receive millions of dollars in financial support from the US government and US-based NGOs and think tanks. In 2008, a leader of Venezuela’s student movement — which organized similar anti-Chávez protests back in 2007 — won the $500.000 Milton Friedman Award from the right-libertarian CATO Institute, which is funded by major corporate sponsors like the Koch Brothers and the Ford Foundation, headed by an “ardent devotee” of Ayn Rand.

it is estimated that various “youth outreach” programs in Venezuela received at least $45 million from US sponsors. Furthermore, the Obama administration has earmarked at least $5 million to directly support Venezuela’s opposition parties through 2014 — not to mention the secret ties that undoubtedly exists between the opposition and the US intelligence community. This comes on top of the dozens of millions of dollars that have been donated to the opposition over the years. Not surprising, given that Venezuela is sitting on top of the largest known oil reserves in the world, just around the corner from the US.

Venezuela’s electoral system has been described by Jimmy Carter as “the best system in the world.” the government has been actively working together with grassroots movements to create one of the world’s most vibrant experiments in direct and participatory democracy, giving rise to thousands of communal councils, hundreds of communes and tens of thousands of worker-run cooperatives.

opposition leaders Maria Corina Machado and Leopoldo López were original signatories of the infamous 2002 Carmona Decree, which temporarily dissolved the Chávez government following an attempted coup d’étât by the oligarchic elite and right-wing elements in the military.

Chávez decided not to pursue vengeance and allowed the conspirators to walk free. Machado went on to found Súmata, an “NGO” that received funding from the National Endowment for Democracy in Washington (where she received a personal welcome from President George W. Bush). López was allowed to remain mayor of Chacao, the wealthiest district of Caracas

Venezuela’s media is overwhelmingly privately owned by the country’s richest business elites. In 2012, the BBC noted that only 4.58% of the country’s TV and radio channels belong to the state. The three national newspapers — accounting for 90% of the country’s readership — are all anti-government. Of the four main national TV channels, three — similarly accounting for 90% of the audience — are aligned with the opposition. The international media (along with the admins of important social movement pages on Facebook and Twitter) simply echo the right-wing narrative emanating from Venezuela’s highly concentrated corporate media landscape.

income inequality in Venezuela — once one of highest in Latin America — has now been reduced to the lowest on the continent, while shared growth and redistributive social programs have cut poverty in half and reduced extreme poverty by 70% since 2002. Illiteracy was eradicated and vast improvements were made in health, housing and education. Just some indicators of social progress: infant mortality fell by more than one-third; the number of social security beneficiaries more than doubled; the amount of primary healthcare physicians in the public sector increased 12-fold from 1999 to 2007; and education enrollment rates more than doubled from 1999 to 2008.

This is the evil anti-democratic regime the US-supported right-wing opposition is trying to overthrow. In reality, it is an experiment in democratic socialism that seeks to build popular power through direct democratic institutions like councils, communes and cooperatives. This is precisely what’s driving the US and the Venezuelan elite so mad: the left in Venezuela is building up its own institutions of communal organization that many hope will supplant the bourgeois state.

[Red Commissar]

Here's another article going through some of the popular images that've been stolen from other events.

http://daily-struggles.tumblr.com/post/76949406427/whats-being-faked-to-be-going-on-in-venezuela-in-a

Truly, it's a small world when Loukanikos, the bane of the Greek Riot Police, ends up in Venezuela :rolleyes:

Not to say that the police in Venezuela haven't been dicks, but still, this highlights how polarized and emotional the politics there are.

[CyM]

This highlights that this is a stage managed coup organized along the same script as the economic chaos and "strikes" which preceded Allende's murder.

This is counterrevolution, pure and simple.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

This highlights that this is a stage managed coup organized along the same script as the economic chaos and "strikes" which preceded Allende's murder.

This is counterrevolution, pure and simple.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

Well, it can't be counter-revolution, as that would imply that there was a revolution to oppose, which there isn't.

But yes, you are right, I think, about the fundamental nature of those who have instigated the protests in Venezuela, even if it must be recognised that there are legitimate grievances which have brought some out onto the streets too.

[aristos]

The thing is that that there will always be grievances. No matter what socio-economic system, somewhere somebody will be angry at something. The question is: where this anger is being channeled and towards what aims.

[Futility Personified]

I am beginning to suspect these protests were organised by the Maduro government to galvanise leftist support towards them. They paid the CIA to pay the opposition protesters to start rabble rousing so that revleft would consider the idea as a whole that this is a revolution under threat. Once the Maduro government has the unquestioning loyalty of all revleft posters, they can begin consolidating the counter-revolution towards the real revolution, which will be a domestic appliance in every shack.

[CyM]

Verbal warning for trolling.

Not funny.

[adipocere]

Good fucking lord.


Retired General to be Arrested Following Decapitation of Motorist at Opposition Blockade (http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/10391)

By Tamara Pearson






Merida, 22nd February 2014 (Venezuelanalysis.com) – President Maduro has ordered the arrest of retired General Angel Vivas, who promoted the use of wire at blockades in order to “neutralise” people on motorbikes. One government supporter on a motorbike died by such a method last night.
On 20 February Vivas tweeted (https://twitter.com/Gral_Vivas_P/status/436544028856057856) “In order to neutralise criminal hordes on motorbikes, one must place nylon string or galvanised wire across the street, at a height of 1.2 metres”.
He also tweeted (https://twitter.com/Gral_Vivas_P/status/436548115521613824), “to render armoured vehicles of the dictatorship useless, Molotov cocktails should be thrown under the motor, to burn belts and hoses, they become inoperative”.
Other tweeters responded to his tweet about decapitating motorbike riders with further advice for the violent blockades, including suggesting that “a lot of oil be used in the streets, it is good for two things, they fall off, and it can set [things] alight. The collectives are the ones in the vehicles”.
Last night a man died in Caracas when his throat was cut by wire that blockaders had erected. Santiago Enrique Pedroza was 29 years old. According to Minister Miguel Rodriguez, Pedroza “didn’t see the wire”.
“Murderers who put the wire there with the intention of causing the death of human beings have to be put in prison,” Rodriguez stated. He said Venezuela’s criminal investigation body (CICPC) was investigating the case.
This afternoon at a march of Women for Peace, Maduro said that those who had set up the wire had been “identified and will be arrested”.
He also denounced the alleged burning of 40 new Metro buses, and “various Mercal and Pdval trucks that were transporting food”. He further accused violent groups of setting a Bicentenario market on fire in Bolivar state. Mercal, Pdval and Bicentenario are state subsidised food programs.

[--Navarro--]

Venezuela actually has more infrastructure and wealth per capita.

Not anymore thanks to Chávez. Colombia has been catching up since a few decades. And Venezuela's income per capita will be corrected downwards because of inflation. On most infraestructure indexes Venezuela scores even worse than Colombia.



also no one supported the "democratically elected government" of colombia but, again, who cares about facts. but i dont know why you denounce the "democratically elected government" of colombia as "Fascist Regime" since the colombian goverment was elected in bourgois elections just like the venezuelan goverment.

why do you put "democratically elected government" on quotes? It IS a democratically elected government.

and what do you mean by "bourgois elections"? (out of curiosity).

[cyu]

You're not really a leftist are you? Pretty much only pro-capitalists think Colombia isn't just another puppet of the US.

[aristos]

Well to be fair, the Venezuelan elections are no different to Colombian elections - both subscribe to bourgeois democracy (the difference being that the Colombian populace has been brutalized and brainwashed long enough to have developed a robust Stockholm syndrome).

That said, even though apparantly Maduro and his party enjoy much more support than say Yanukovich or Assad, the only way out of this mess (and even that way is very perilous and success far from assured) is to act with resolve and without compromise. As people mentioned before in this thread complete expropriation and redistribution of wealth will be the only remedy with long-term effect.
The opposition will not relent and with US help (and those bastards have now perfected channeling and managing uprisings to high art) they will keep on escalating the situation.

In the short term Maduro needs to discredit the opposition by planting his agents into their ranks as provocateurs putting forward barbaric demands and behaving themselves in ways that could not be excused even by the US, without loosing face. A good false flag or two, capture of "CIA" agents and a disguised raid on the US embassy, resulting in "leaking" of documents explicitly implicating the US, should do the trick.

[Einkarl]

why do you put "democratically elected government" on quotes? It IS a democratically elected government.

https://warosu.org/data/jp/img/0116/20/1384469969186.jpg



and what do you mean by "bourgois elections"? (out of curiosity).



Most of us here don't consider the whole "representative democracy" as democratic. It is bourgeois because regardless of whoever wins, the outcome is the same; that of government being run by and for the bourgeoisie. This is the case in all countries. It isn't democratic because the people dont rule it; money does. This applies to BOTH Venezuela and Colombia, the only difference is that Maduro waves a red flag and is slightly annoying to some bourgeois, particularly Americans.

[La Guaneña]

https://warosu.org/data/jp/img/0116/20/1384469969186.jpg



Most of us here don't consider the whole "representative democracy" as democratic. It is bourgeois because regardless of whoever wins, the outcome is the same; that of government being run by and for the bourgeoisie. This is the case in all countries. It isn't democratic because the people dont rule it; money does. This applies to BOTH Venezuela and Colombia, the only difference is that Maduro waves a red flag and is slightly annoying to some bourgeois, particularly Americans.

Please cut the reaction image, this is not Chit-chat.

We're not talking about the mere fact that Maduro is democratically ellected means anything special, we'd like to knock out Santos any day. The thing is, as you recognized yourself, Maduro is annoying to imperialism and the bourgeoisie and he is democratically ellected. That is a card under our sleeve to stick it to the USA and get good PR, are you fucking innocent?

The thing is, Maduro is objectively a good government for the working class and the peasants, because of that is a pain for the hegemonic bloc and we want him to stay in government so the revolutionary forces can grow stronger.

Want me to make some sort of... uh image for you?

[Einkarl]

Please cut the reaction image, this is not Chit-chat.


We're not talking about the mere fact that Maduro is democratically ellected means anything special, we'd like to knock out Santos any day. The thing is, as you recognized yourself, Maduro is annoying to imperialism and the bourgeoisie and he is democratically ellected. That is a card under our sleeve to stick it to the USA and get good PR, are you fucking innocent?

The thing is, Maduro is objectively a good government for the working class and the peasants, because of that is a pain for the hegemonic bloc and we want him to stay in government so the revolutionary forces can grow stronger.

Want me to make some sort of... uh image for you?

So because Maduro denounces US imperialism then we should support him? I guess we should all consider Ali Khamenei as a vanguard for the revolution.

Maduro's government is bourgeois, it is not revolutionary and it is not an ally to the working class. Like all rats, Maduro and his guys are interested in their own pockets. It is social democratic at best. The working class has no dog in this race.

And since when is Maduro good PR? because all I see is the gringo media painting him and Chavez as an evil dictator and most people gobble it up. Not to mention that he isn't nearly as well liked as Chavez. I'm all for sticking it to the USA, and i don't like the opposition; but maduro is an enemy to the working class just as any bourgeois government.


Want me to make some sort of... uh image for you?

Geez sorry you got SO riled up over it.

[La Guaneña]

So because Maduro denounces US imperialism then we should support him? I guess we should all consider Ali Khamenei as a vanguard for the revolution.

Maduro's government is bourgeois, it is not revolutionary and it is not an ally to the working class. Like all rats, Maduro and his guys are interested in their own pockets. It is social democratic at best. The working class has no dog in this race.

And since when is Maduro good PR? because all I see is the gringo media painting him and Chavez as an evil dictator and most people gobble it up. Not to mention that he isn't nearly as well liked as Chavez. I'm all for sticking it to the USA, and i don't like the opposition; but maduro is an enemy to the working class just as any bourgeois government.



Geez sorry you got SO riled up over it.

Maduro's government is not anti-imperialist only in words, and I would like to show me where Venezuela has been so subservient since 1998. Material conditions for the working classes have clearly increased, and that means better food, housing, cellphones, schools, universities and acess to wealth in general.

Popular, grassroots organization has never been so big in Venezuela, as to be seen in the reaction to the last coup attempt in 2013, that mobilized people to the streets everywhere.

Now, your third-path position is a cowardly and irresponsible one, since it claims that the working class has nothing to lose with Maduro falling to the reaction. It does. Us, Latin Americas have everything to lose with a new Op. Condor, something that US and Colombian atitudes indicate is clearly a real possibility.

[redguarddude]

Is Venezuela Burning? Federico Fuente responds to Mike Davis.

http://redguarddude.blogspot.com/2014/02/is-venezuela-burning-federico-fuentes.html

[RedMaterialist]

Is Venezuela on the verge of another U.S. coup attempt? It sounds more and more like it.

[RedMaterialist]

If there is another U.S. engineered coup there doesnt seem to be anything the U.S. left (or the left anywhere) can do to stop it. Can Maduro survive like Chavez did?

[cyu]

Arm everyone. Sure some plutocrats will end up with weapons, but the point is that whenever we're talking about class politics, the poor always outnumber the rich.

Of course, broadbased leftist politics may "get away" from from politicians who dream of continuing to serve as "the most famous leftist" in the country - instead just relegating them to mere "comrade" status. Then again, if defeat means possible capture or assassination, better to be seen in history as "father of real communism" than let sociopathic urges for power get in the way of survival.

[--Navarro--]

You're not really a leftist are you? Pretty much only pro-capitalists think Colombia isn't just another puppet of the US.

I was in my teens but I'm not anymore. I'm linked to some left-leaning organizations in the area where I live, with the purpose of doing certain concrete things, but I have a lot of ideological differences with them.

And, of course, not being a leftist doesn't mean you are pro-capitalist.


(the difference being that the Colombian populace has been brutalized and brainwashed long enough to have developed a robust Stockholm syndrome).


It's funny how you pretend to know better than 46 million Colombians, even when you probably don't really know nothing about the country, just like the average user of this forum. People in here has all kinds of political views, life experiences, etc.



Most of us here don't consider the whole "representative democracy" as democratic. It is bourgeois because regardless of whoever wins, the outcome is the same; that of government being run by and for the bourgeoisie. This is the case in all countries. It isn't democratic because the people dont rule it; money does. This applies to BOTH Venezuela and Colombia, the only difference is that Maduro waves a red flag and is slightly annoying to some bourgeois, particularly Americans.

I agree for the most part.


Material conditions for the working classes have clearly increased

Not in recent years. Purchasing power for Venezuelans went down a lot. Justice system doesn't work, there's a lot of impunity, a hundred thousand Venezuelans have died violently in a decade or so. Venezuelans consider their country the most corrupt of South America.


Popular, grassroots organization has never been so big in Venezuela, as to be seen in the reaction to the last coup attempt in 2013, that mobilized people to the streets everywhere.


That's true, there's millions of people mobilizing against the government.


Condor, something that US and Colombian atitudes

What "attitudes"?



The thing is, as you recognized yourself, Maduro is annoying to imperialism and the bourgeoisie and he is democratically ellected


How so? Just to mention one thing: the USA is the main export and import partner of Venezuela. USA even has a bigger share of the commercial trade of Venezuela than the one Colombia has with them.

[cyu]

not being a leftist doesn't mean you are pro-capitalist


If you don't consider yourself a leftist, please restrict your posts to the Learning section or the Opposing Ideologies section. This part of the forum isn't even for reformist leftists - there's a reason this web site is called revolutionary left. If I wanted to waste my time responding to people who bring no value, I'd be on reddit more.

[--Navarro--]

If you don't consider yourself a leftist, please restrict your posts to the Learning section or the Opposing Ideologies section. This part of the forum isn't even for reformist leftists - there's a reason this web site is called revolutionary left. If I wanted to waste my time responding to people who bring no value, I'd be on reddit more.

I won't and that's a very retarded way of thinking.

[Sinister Intents]

I won't and that's a very retarded way of thinking.

Dude, FUCK YOU :mad: Fuck your use of ableist language, you don't belong here if you're talking like that

[Le Socialiste]

I won't and that's a very retarded way of thinking.

Navarro, stuff like this isn't acceptable. Verbal Warning for ableist language.

[cyu]

I won't and that's a very retarded way of thinking.


Why do spam filters exist? If people want to dedicate a forum to photos of kittens, should they be forced to allow in people who want to post pictures of corpses?

[--Navarro--]

Dude, FUCK YOU :mad: Fuck your use of ableist language, you don't belong here if you're talking like that

but "retarded" is the correct term. To say that the way of thinking of someone who doesn't think exactly like you do brings "no value", is just that. Why so profane?

That thing about restricting my posts to certain area of the forum sounds very "stormfront". I though leftism standed for pluralism, etc.

[Sinister Intents]

but "retarded" is the correct term. To say that the way of thinking of someone who doesn't think exactly like you do brings "no value", is just that. Why so profane?

That thing about restricting my posts to certain area of the forum sounds very "stormfront". I though leftism standed for pluralism, etc.

Why don't you shut up and refrain from using ableist language. Its not tolerated because its a prejudiced word. Also ad hominem arguments are a logical fallacy. "What you're saying is stupid!" That's ad hominem. You're a moron if you're going to argue that "retard" is the proper word, I'm non neurotypical and I take offense to your bullshit, and I'll cuss at you all I want.

[Futility Personified]

No Navarro, no.

Retarded is a pretty emotionally charged word, often thrown around to callously demean people with disabilities. It's an abhorrent way to refer to people are facing some pretty extreme challenges in life. A huge component of leftism is standing up for the marginalized and the oppressed, using degrading language used to dismiss and dehumanize really doesn't belong in any discourse. Additionally, it doesn't really support your grievance and you don't really outline the issues you have. You just chose once really shite word instead.

[Bala Perdida]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx6DjsqbFN8

This video explains the background of the protests. I had no idea of the rivalry within the PSUV.

[CyM]

I wouldn't take that video seriously, since it considers Venezuela to be under Cuban occupation.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

[khad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yx6DjsqbFN8

This video explains the background of the protests. I had no idea of the rivalry within the PSUV.
Love the fake accent. Remind me again how a double-l sounds in Spanish.

Where do you people find this junk?

[Bala Perdida]

Love the fake accent. Remind me again how a double-l sounds in Spanish.

Where do you people find this junk?
The author doesn't speak Spanish, at least not as a first language. He's also from middle eastern decent, or somewhere near there.
Also the Cuba under occupation was just a quote from someone else. As far as I'm concerned.

[CyM]

You lose all legitimacy if you choose to quote someone saying that cuban troops occupy Venezuela, as evidence to prove your point that Cuban special forces are a decisive force in Venezuelan politics.

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

[Sir Comradical]

Love the fake accent. Remind me again how a double-l sounds in Spanish.

Where do you people find this junk?


CabeLLoooo. lol.

[adipocere]

Love the fake accent. Remind me again how a double-l sounds in Spanish.

Where do you people find this junk?
Caspian report is just an "independent" political analysis that tends to favor the West by placing US imperialism on equal footing with everything it goes up against and accommodates in situations where the US is trying to obscure it's footprint. For instance here, he pretends that Caprilles is not an imperial stooge and tries to obfuscate the nature of the protests in Venezuela as a way to legitimize them.

Of course that is my analysis of Caspian Report. I'm sure there are many who think it's "neutrality" is refreshing - the same types who think Al Jazeera is anti-war.

(He's not doing a fake accent, he always sounds like that.)

[La Guaneña]

Do you people try to find pro-imperialist sources on purpouse, to piss us off or are you guys really innocent enough to believe "neutral" sources? :laugh:

[Red Commissar]

Stateside it appears observers have gotten a collective aneurysm after the OAS refused to comment/involve itself in the protests which was seen as support for the government. This is particularly insulting for US hawks since the OAS has generally toed the US's line and has avoided enraging it (for one, Cuba was kept out of the body for the longest time), plus it being headquartered in Washington and all...

Panama has thrown itself onboard with the US and Colombia regarding their position on these protests. It alleges outstanding debt that is on the verge of default which Venezuela denies, and in turn the Venezuelan government has expelled its ambassador from the country. I'm under the impression that besides the country's obvious right wing government that Panama has become a favorite spot for Venezuelan expats who're anti-Chavez by and large and've been flexing their muscles there like they've done in US media circles. Likewise it appears Costa Rica's government has become critical of the government and has given moral support for the protestors, which is interesting since the other "center-left" governments (including those that are decidedly neo-liberal) in LA have mostly preferred to keep themselves out of the issue or give soft support for the Venezuelan government. But it seems for the most part other Latin American countries if they haven't voiced support for Maduro are remaining quiet on the protestors and are not acknowledging their calls for said countries to put pressure on Venezuela.

I can't see this going anywhere really for these protestors. Even Caprilles acknowledged the challenge for their camp if they are unable to break the working and poor base of the PSUV, their protestors being largely drawn from the middle and upper classes, that it'll become increasingly isolated (though something could be said that he's probably peeved he isn't the center of attention again like after he threw his fit following his previous two election defeats). Their media campaign to get sympathizers is failing due to attention on Ukraine-unfortunately not on its blatant falsities at many points. I had thought that it would return after Yanukovich's removal but I didn't see this whole Crimea thing coming. That has given the government breathing space as far as this media battle is concerned.

Short of a full-blown US embargo which I can't see coming (yet) Maduro's government will survive this episode of intrigues from the opposition. For long-term prospects though these issues that are feeding the opposition need to be resolved or it will eventually demoralize their supporters while continuing to embolden the opposition.

I don't know much here, but what would be the effects if the government unpegged the Bolivar from the US dollar with respect to its current inflation and goods shortages?

[cyu]

Maduro's government will survive this episode of intrigues from the opposition. For long-term prospects though these issues that are feeding the opposition need to be resolved


If it were me, I'd encourage workplace democracy at all mass media outlets. Obviously if a media outlet were controlled by rank-and-file employees, rather than well-paid executives, you'd expect a shift in editorial policy - and with the shift in the mass media will come a shift in opinion not just in the middle class, but the former upper class as well. Plus you get to unmask the "pro-democracy" American regime as merely a naked attempt to prop up capitalists.



what would be the effects if the government unpegged the Bolivar from the US dollar


They might try working with other nations interested in the end of the petrodollar or the end of the US dollar as the world reserve currency. (I figure Russia may be particularly keen on this at the moment.) There is a risk though, since American foreign policy circles would see that as a major threat, and come up with any trumped up excuse and redouble their efforts to overthrow you - as has happened before in other countries. Maybe better to first just come up with a plan, discuss with other nations, and save it as a "nuclear option" if the American regime tries anything it shouldn't.

But if you didn't have to worry about an American overthrow of your government, it would be clearly better to abandon any use of the US dollar, either as the reserve currency, or for oil trades. For countries who do a lot of trade in oil, they could just abandon the "middle-man" currency, and conduct trade directly in oil - for example, if you want to import 5000 shipments of wheat, offer them a certain number of barrels of oil - if your partner doesn't actually want to use the oil, just write it down on a ledger - if your partner is really after construction equipment, they can get it from another country that can then "withdraw" the oil you've "saved" for them on the ledger.

[--Navarro--]

Why don't you shut up and refrain from using ableist language. Its not tolerated because its a prejudiced word. Also ad hominem arguments are a logical fallacy. "What you're saying is stupid!" That's ad hominem. You're a moron if you're going to argue that "retard" is the proper word, I'm non neurotypical and I take offense to your bullshit, and I'll cuss at you all I want.


the one using ad hominems was cyu in the first place. He implied that people that doesn't thefine themselves as revolutionary leftist "brings no value". But I guess in that case is ok for you using ad hominem.

"Revolutionary leftist" doesn't mean anything. The points of view on this forum can be as divergent from each other as the ones in the "opposing views" section are to the rest. Because that's what a forum is about, opposing views. Any thread is, by definition, about debate and discussion. To say that my posts bring no value just because I don't tag myself in certain way is wrong.



Retarded is a pretty emotionally charged word, often thrown around to callously demean people with disabilities. It's an abhorrent way to refer to people are facing some pretty extreme challenges in life. A huge component of leftism is standing up for the marginalized and the oppressed, using degrading language used to dismiss and dehumanize really doesn't belong in any discourse. Additionally, it doesn't really support your grievance and you don't really outline the issues you have. You just chose once really shite word instead.

"retarded" has also been used as a slang word for many years, meaning "stupid or foolish".

[cyu]

If people want a forum dedicated to photos of kittens, and others want to post pictures of corpses, I presume you will argue that they bring "value" to the forum.

[Sinister Intents]

the one using ad hominems was cyu in the first place. He implied that people that doesn't thefine themselves as revolutionary leftist "brings no value". But I guess in that case is ok for you using ad hominem.

"Revolutionary leftist" doesn't mean anything. The points of view on this forum can be as divergent from each other as the ones in the "opposing views" section are to the rest. Because that's what a forum is about, opposing views. Any thread is, by definition, about debate and discussion. To say that my posts bring no value just because I don't tag myself in certain way is wrong.



"retarded" has also been used as a slang word for many years, meaning "stupid or foolish".

Can we start another thread on this so that this page isn't derailed further?

Also I'm autistic. I have been called retard and psycho for being autistic. It's prejudiced. To use retarded to state one is stupid or foolish is a pejorative insult and I wouldn't be surprised if you get infracted at some point. Let's move this discussion

[--Navarro--]

to promote violence and murder (oftenly against people who doesn't deserve it: http://www.revleft.com/vb/farc-rebels-kill-t187103/index.html?p=2744043 ) is admissible, but calling "stupidity" by its name is not.

"Revolutionary leftists" have mysterious souls.

[cyu]

to promote violence and murder (oftenly against people who doesn't deserve it


How do you personally decide who deserves to be attacked or killed? What do you think of the Obama regime's signature strike program?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

How do you personally decide who deserves to be attacked or killed?

Neighbourhood councils.

[--Navarro--]

How do you personally decide who deserves to be attacked or killed? What do you think of the Obama regime's signature strike program?

ok, leave that aside, policemen are exposed to kill and get killed.

but my main point wasn't that.

[cyu]

leave that aside
Does that mean you have no personal opinion on the issue? You do realize you're in a political forum, do you not? Or are you not allowed to voice your actual personal opinion, for fear of retaliation from your commanding officer?

[RedWorker]

I can't believe some people here really got tricked by the reactionary bourgeois media. How many times does it need to happen in order to wake up? :laugh:

To summarize:

- Yes, capitalism still exists in Venezuela. That is not to doubt the massive improvements by the left-wing government there though, with poverty dropping from 50% to 25% in about 10 years, etc. Anybody on the Internet can type "shit government, they have not established worldwide higher-stage communism yet! Bourgeois capitalism-retaining scum!". Why not go there and establish that?

- Yes, reactionary leader Leopoldo Lopez got arrested, initially charged for murder. He coordinated the whole protests, which practically started only because of him, and never stopped calling for protests even while tens of people were dying from that shit and between hundreds and thousands injured. If this was not Venezuela which has a nice government the guy would already have been jailed for 50 years for doing a quarter of what he did. President Maduro says: "Thanks to Chavez we have a constitution in which you can collect a certain amount of signatures and force call an election, why can they not do that instead of using all that violence?"

- Available information suggests that the opposition is responsible for most of the deaths at the protests. Even so, President Maduro has created a commission which is set to investigate any possible violence by government supporters or government forces, and apply justice.

- There is a situation of massive chaos. If you see a 30 second bad video of some police unit appearing to be shooting somewhere, with the camera perfectly set so that you can see only them and not any of the context, while there is obviously an extreme chaotic situation going on around them does this tell anything? No. Anything could be going on there, it doesn't mean that they're "cold blooded murderers". The fact that meanwhile there is a very chaotic and violent situation going there the police almost always restricted themselves to simply watching and defending, and in a few instances simply dissolved the protests, says a lot.

- The violence of opposition supporters even went as far as burning vehicles of state food distribution networks. According to government sources, they damaged millions of dollars' worth of public property.

- Pro-government demonstrations involved millions of people.

- Twitter images were probably not intentionally blocked. According to the government this was simply a technical problem, and it lasted only about 3 days. The right-wing media quickly picked up and blamed the government though.

- There was an Internet outage in a certain city affecting about 600,000 people. It was resolved in about 36 hours and was probably simply a technical problem. However the rightist propagandist media quickly picked up on this, claimed the government blocked it and in some cases even reported about "Venezuelan government completely shutting down the Internet".

.

[--Navarro--]

Does that mean you have no personal opinion on the issue? You do realize you're in a political forum, do you not? Or are you not allowed to voice your actual personal opinion, for fear of retaliation from your commanding officer?

but that's my opinion right there and you were right, policemen are
exposed to kill and get killed. but it's also beside the point, which is: people here promote killing and butchering people for the sake of a greater good, but swearing or calling names is wrong for them. Irónico, cuando menos.

what "commanding officer"?

[cyu]

policemen are exposed to kill and get killed. people here promote killing and butchering people for the sake of a greater good
Would you say the same of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_Chiefs_of_Staff ?

[Mikula Mali]

And hypocrisy still rages. From US with utter disrespect: The US House of Representatives disregarded regional consensus on May 28 by voting to impose sanctions against Venezuela.
The vote by acclamation was overwhelming, despite a last-ditch appeal by Michigan’s John Conyers and 13 other progressive Democrats who opposed sanctions and called for restoration of diplomatic relations between the two nations.
They pointed out that regional bodies, including the Organisation of American States, the Caribbean Community and the Union of South American Nations (UNASUR), had all rejected the case for sanctions.
But far-right Florida Republicans Ileana Ros-Lehtinen and Mario Diaz-Balart ― who cut their teeth on campaigns to undermine Cuban independence ― led the charge to attack Venezuela.
The House, with 435 members, took just 20 minutes to pass the bill that would impose sanctions on Venezuelan officials it considers guilty of human rights violations, while funding political opponents of President Nicolas Maduro.
The Senate foreign relations committee, headed by fellow far-right Florida Republican Marco Rubio, has already backed the bill.

If the Senate emulates the House, President Barack Obama’s signature would then make it law.
Maduro has scorned the sanctions process, pointing out that US laws have no jurisdiction outside US territory.
“The North American government cannot approve legislation to sanction the inhabitants of another country … any sanctions law approved by the US is spurious,” he said. “We reject it and will confront it in forums worldwide.”
UNASUR condemned US “interference” in Venezuela ahead of the passing of the bill, calling its meddling an obstacle to national dialogue, and backed the peace process initiated by the Bolivarian government.
Venezuela foreign minister Elias Jaua plans to propose condemnation of US interference at the Summit of the G-77 plus China, which meets in Bolivia on June 14-15, and at the Community of Latin American and Caribbean States.
The Maduro government said on May 28 that US ambassador to Colombia Kevin Whitaker was involved in attempts to destabilise revolutionary Venezuela.
It cited emails from Maria Corina Machado, who was dismissed as a deputy in March for unconstitutional behaviour, to other opposition activists.

[CubanDream]

(TW: Violence, Blood, Death, Gore)

In the midst of a media blackout in the country, peaceful protests against the Venezuelan government have turned into bloodbaths as police and Tupamaros (Marxist-Leninist organizations supportive of the Venezuelan government) opened (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOMolXNJLTo) fire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrpihh6mewQ) on (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3DS2uxihGk) the protestors.

I just...I have no words for this. I'm heartbroken for those poor people, and I'm extremely disappointed in our comrades in the Venezuelan government.


The protesters should be stopped. - Maduro must be supported.

[cyu]

The protesters should be stopped. - Maduro must be supported.

Well, even if you don't like Maduro, crypto-plutocrats must be stopped regardless. :lol:

The amount of money someone has should have nothing to do with whether they are fit to rule, yet in this world, people allow that to happen far too often. Money buys a lot of propaganda, after all.

[(A)]

When does a government stop representing the people ans start oppressing them?

Is it when they refute your right to protest?
to gather peacefully?
To speak your mind?

THE PEOPLE ARE THE POWER is the basis of socialism and communism.

The few have no right to enforce there will on the many. That is fascism.
That is the reason we fight against capitalism.

"Then - in the name of democracy - let us use that power - let us all unite. Let us fight for a new world - a decent world that will give men a chance to work - that will give youth a future and old age a security. By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power. But they lie! They do not fulfil that promise. They never will!"

[Orange Juche]

The inability to question that maybe the Venezuelan government is corrupt and violent against its own people is disheartening - this is a huge problem on the left. Anything we ally ourselves with, if it becomes problematic, we plug our ears and say "nope, it's the opposition".

I have no doubt there's bias on both sides of the reporting - that's kind of the way reporting has, does, and will always work. But the Venezuelan government isn't run by a Choir of Angels, it's run by people - and people do fucked up things, especially when they have power (and if you look at things like the Stanford Prison Experiment - yes, power has a tendency to corrupt even good people).

So we should be questioning both sides of what's going on here at best, not saying "nope, stupid right wingers". Are you there? Because if not, this armchair editorializing and pontificating looks silly and desperate.

[RedWorker]

The thing is that I, as well as probably many others here, believe that the government of Venezuela isn't the best possible, although they have done many good things.

But violent?

There is police abuse anywhere. It just so happens that in Venezuela there is probably one of the lowest rates of police abuse compared to the massive chaos going on.

Sure, that is still wrong. But put it into perspective. It is just as bad as it is virtually anywhere else. Despite how the media tries to completely manipulate things to create an unrealistic vision and perspective into people.

There is corruption, bureaucracy, and inefficiency.

But there is everywhere else too, and the new government is better than the older and any of the current alternatives.

Most of the violence has been caused by the opposition, as anybody who has studied the situation will know. Many government supporters got killed.

Additionally, the government forces alleged of murdering persons are standing in trial. Would this happen anywhere else? Surely not in places like the U.S.A., where Chelsea Manning is jailed forever and the soldiers who committed the murders witnessed in the video Manning leaked are not even looked at.

As for repression, only Leopoldo Lopez was arrested. And I don't agree with that. Meanwhile I also don't agree with a one-sided way to look at it.

If this civil unrest with the violence, chaos and murders it unleashed would have happened anywhere else, the leader of the protests would probably be jailed forever or something. Meanwhile Leopoldo Lopez is just probably going to be released somewhen soon.

Is it truly possible that with the situation currently in Venezuela, the government acts in any other way that it is currently doing?

In fact, I find that they are doing much better than almost anyone else would.

There is nothing wrong with peaceful protesting. And many of the people are probably not right-wing but simply protesting about a bad situation.

But the fact is that the protests have been redirected to support the right-wing, and that a minority sector of the protests has been very violent.

[motion denied]

When does a government stop representing the people ans start oppressing them?

Is it when they refute your right to protest?
to gather peacefully?
To speak your mind?

THE PEOPLE ARE THE POWER is the basis of socialism and communism.

The few have no right to enforce there will on the many. That is fascism.
That is the reason we fight against capitalism.

"Then - in the name of democracy - let us use that power - let us all unite. Let us fight for a new world - a decent world that will give men a chance to work - that will give youth a future and old age a security. By the promise of these things, brutes have risen to power. But they lie! They do not fulfil that promise. They never will!"

You talk like a democrat, a bourgeois democrat... Like, everything you wrote (take and add few things) could have been written by John Locke himself.

[cyu]

No system is perfect. If there exists some system where you can't point out something they're doing wrong, then you're not doing your job.

Still, siding with pro-capitalists is just ridiculous. If Ukrainian fascists went to Venezuela and were about to take over the government, do we hope that the fascists would do a better job than the current "socialists"? Do we prefer wage-slavers instead?

I'll believe there's a free press in Venezuela when the 1% has 1% of the say in the mass media. If the richest 1% are whining about not having more control of the media, they might as well be kings whining about losing the right to execute anyone as they please.

[Ismail]

The inability to question that maybe the Venezuelan government is corrupt and violent against its own people is disheartening - this is a huge problem on the left. Anything we ally ourselves with, if it becomes problematic, we plug our ears and say "nope, it's the opposition".

I have no doubt there's bias on both sides of the reporting - that's kind of the way reporting has, does, and will always work. But the Venezuelan government isn't run by a Choir of Angels, it's run by people - and people do fucked up things, especially when they have power (and if you look at things like the Stanford Prison Experiment - yes, power has a tendency to corrupt even good people).Then give examples of the Venezuelan government (relative to the right-wing opposition) being "corrupt and violent against its own people." Just saying "hey guys maybe the truth is in the middle" isn't an analysis. You have a government pursuing moderate social reforms against those who want to dismantle them, and who are willing to resort to coup plots and destabilization to do so.

As Hoxha noted (http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/hoxhachile.htm) concerning the downfall of Allende, "History has proved, and the events in Chile, where it was not yet a question of socialism but of a democratic regime, again made clear, that the establishment of socialism through the parliamentary road is utterly impossible.... The main parts of the bourgeois state machine are the political and economic power and the armed forces. As long as these forces remain intact, i.e., as long as they have not been dissolved and new forces created in their stead, as long as the old apparatus of the police, the secret intelligence services, etc., is retained, there is no guarantee that a parliament or a democratic government will be able to last long. Not only the case of Chile, but many others have proved that the counter-revolutionary coups d’état have been carried out precisely by the armed forces commanded by the bourgeoisie.... [the Christian Democratic Party] bears responsibility also because it used all possible means to sabotage the normal activity of the government, because it united with the forces of the Right to undermine the nationalized economy and to create confusion in the country, because it perpetrated a thousand and one acts of subversion. It fought to create that spiritual and political climate that was the prelude to the counter-revolution."

Since the ideology of Chávez and Maduro seeks to "reform" the bourgeois state, and since its conception of "socialism" is petty-bourgeois, the government cannot go beyond the contradictory and limited nature of bourgeois democracy, much less help organize an actual revolutionary situation inside the country. The FSLN in Nicaragua in the 80s faced a similar problem.

[(A)]

You talk like a democrat, a bourgeois democrat... Like, everything you wrote (take and add few things) could have been written by John Locke himself.

While I do not enjoy having my beliefs being insulted I would never censor you. I would stand up for your right.

[Futility Personified]

Is this a liberal application of trolling, or the application of liberal trolling?

[motion denied]

While I do not enjoy having my beliefs being insulted I would never censor you. I would stand up for your right.

You have successfully trolled me.

I actually raged,

[Atsumari]

No system is perfect. If there exists some system where you can't point out something they're doing wrong, then you're not doing your job.

Still, siding with pro-capitalists is just ridiculous. If Ukrainian fascists went to Venezuela and were about to take over the government, do we hope that the fascists would do a better job than the current "socialists"? Do we prefer wage-slavers instead?

I'll believe there's a free press in Venezuela when the 1% has 1% of the say in the mass media. If the richest 1% are whining about not having more control of the media, they might as well be kings whining about losing the right to execute anyone as they please.
No because fascism in Ukraine and Venezuela is pretty fringed, especially in the later. Something tells me that most of the protesters in Venezuela would happily vote for Obama over Mussolini. Most of these protesters are free market liberals or social democrats, simple as that.
And if anyone listened to the pro-government press, even without knowing anything about Venezuelan politics you can get the feeling that something is off about what is being said.

[GodOfEvil]

Venezuela might side in to more chaos

[cyu]

Something tells me that most of the protesters in Venezuela would happily vote for Obama over Mussolini. The Obama that happily supported the coup in Honduras, and calmly looked the other way when death squads killed the opposition openly and in broad daylight.

Makes me wonder how many CIA shills we have to put up with here xD

[(A)]

You have successfully trolled me.

I actually raged,

I am truly sorry I did not mean to troll you. I was very upset with what you had said about me. I was just trying to make my point that freedom of speech is important for the fight against Fascism and Capitalism.

Please accept my apology.

[cyu]

How much freedom of speech do the wealthy deserve? As much as they can buy?

[(A)]

I would say the exact same amount as the poor.

Justice denied for one is justice denied for all is it not.

[cyu]

In which countries in the world, do the wealthy currently have as much free speech as the poor? If there are none, do any countries have a free press?

[Futility Personified]

I would say the exact same amount as the poor.

Justice denied for one is justice denied for all is it not.

I don't mean to be unpleasant, but this is one of those comments that seems to lead to the graveyard of brief posting stints on revleft.

That is a principle that seems to be held as true in a lot of bourgeois democracies, but has been shown time and time again to be a falsehood, and an unhealthy one at that. If you can accrue yourself a lot of money, you can accrue yourself a lot of influence. There should not -be- a rich. The workers should be suppressing the rich until they disappear as a sociological construct.

You could argue that using the label of 'bourgeois' to suppress a criticism is what that entails, but i'd like to think that at least something has been learnt from stalinism. The bourgeois will want to extend their power and influence to protect their interests, accordingly it is in our interests to deny them the opportunity to do so.

[(A)]

I don't mean to be unpleasant, but this is one of those comments that seems to lead to the graveyard of brief posting stints on revleft.

That is a principle that seems to be held as true in a lot of bourgeois democracies, but has been shown time and time again to be a falsehood, and an unhealthy one at that. If you can accrue yourself a lot of money, you can accrue yourself a lot of influence. There should not -be- a rich. The workers should be suppressing the rich until they disappear as a sociological construct.

You could argue that using the label of 'bourgeois' to suppress a criticism is what that entails, but i'd like to think that at least something has been learnt from stalinism. The bourgeois will want to extend their power and influence to protect their interests, accordingly it is in our interests to deny them the opportunity to do so.

I think that's a slippery slope. Without equal rights how can we create a classless society. I am not saying inequality should exist I am saying no person should be oppressed by another. That is why I believe in Socialism.

Maybe I don't belong here on this thread and I will let the moderators decide that. But I think the capitalists are thief's and they should be stopped; But I don't want to slay them and their family's.

I wont stop you from killing the %1 but I want to pass with as little blood on my hands as possible.

[La Guaneña]

[QUOTE=Democracy;2766768 But I don't want to slay them and their family's.

I wont stop you from killing the %1 but I want to pass with as little blood on my hands as possible.[/QUOTE]

And what about when they form the White Army 2.0?

[(A)]

I don't want to kill the rich and there children in there homes.
But if I have to defend myself or my family I will do so with all of the strength and wisdom I acquire threw my life. Are you a killer? Will you go out tonight to your bosses house and make him pay for his profiteering off of your labor?

[La Guaneña]

I don't want to kill the rich and there children in there homes.
But if I have to defend myself or my family I will do so with all of the strength and wisdom I acquire threw my life. Are you a killer? Will you go out tonight to your bosses house and make him pay for his profiteering off of your labor?

No, I'm talking about in a revolutionary situation, do we put up an army or not?

[cyu]

When the poor die under capitalism, the rich consider it unfortunate but not their problem.

When the rich die during revolution, OMG, how barbaric they are!

The imposition of "property rights" may not kill anybody directly - instead, the poor die of starvation. The pulling of a trigger doesn't kill anybody directly either - instead, those who are shot die of bleeding.

[Atsumari]

The Obama that happily supported the coup in Honduras, and calmly looked the other way when death squads killed the opposition openly and in broad daylight.

Makes me wonder how many CIA shills we have to put up with here xD
And your point?

And before you call me anything else, let me say that I find the left in Venezuela to be preferable to the liberals and right-wing, but holy shit is this government bad with policy. Even though I am sure Maduro means well, his economic ideas suck. Even Noam Chomsky who has been a pretty vocal supporter of the Venezuelan left has share of criticisms.

[Црвена]

Um, comrades in Venezuela? Haven't you heard of this thing called freedom of speech, which socialists should be upholding when capitalists aren't?

Seriously, even if these protesters are extremely reactionary, they have the right to protest. The only reason that they should be stopped is if they're actually preaching hate against a specific group simply because they exist, and even then they shouldn't be shot at.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I don't want to kill the rich and there children in there homes.
But if I have to defend myself or my family I will do so with all of the strength and wisdom I acquire threw my life. Are you a killer? Will you go out tonight to your bosses house and make him pay for his profiteering off of your labor?

I think one can fight the wealthy without butchering their children.


Um, comrades in Venezuela? Haven't you heard of this thing called freedom of speech, which socialists should be upholding when capitalists aren't?


Being patronizing doesn't help.

Free speech is nice to have, but why treat it like a tenant of faith?



Seriously, even if these protesters are extremely reactionary, they have the right to protest. The only reason that they should be stopped is if they're actually preaching hate against a specific group simply because they exist, and even then they shouldn't be shot at.

Protests don't exist in some abstract realm. If you have very reactionary protesters, and they put in place a reactionary regime, who is to say that they will respect the "right to free speech" of others? Moral principles are nice but moral principles completely abstracted from practical consequences are naive and dangerous.

In Venezuela, a number of protesters were putting chicken wire at neck height to decapitate pro-government motorcyclists. The right to assemble is used as a cover for violence against activists on the other side. It has also been used historically as a cover for coups.

I think the Venezuelan state has a much bigger problem than its inability to respect the perfect ideals of liberal democracy - incidentally, perfect ideals which have never really been recognized in a truly absolute manner by any liberal society.

[(A)]

I think one can fight the wealthy without butchering their children.

Yes but if you fail in overthrowing the government then they will just inherit the wealth.

I Know capitalism will fail. I just don't want to slit throats to speed things up.

Now If you want to me to choke out some security guards or lay down some rib cracking, arm breaking Judo I can help you out. Let me know when. :ninja:

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Yes but if you fail in overthrowing the government then they will just inherit the wealth.

I Know capitalism will fail. I just don't want to slit throats to speed things up.

Now If you want to me to choke out some security guards or lay down some rib cracking, arm breaking Judo I can help you out. Let me know when. :ninja:

I think it goes without saying that inheritance rules would change during and after a revolution.

[(A)]

I think it goes without saying that inheritance rules would change during and after a revolution.

1. That assumes that the revolution succeeds. If not you will just end up with a bunch of pissed of rich kids who will want you and your family's heads.

2. Even if you win and inheritance in eliminated there will still be people out there who want your head and will probably be radicalized against your new society.

Violence breeds violence. If I have to I will kill but even in a revolution only as a last resort. The Reds had other methods available to them. Forced loans, eviction, imprisonment (second least favorite) and so on.

Change society first, then clean up whatever radical capitalists are left.

Look at the thread about Worker self-determined enterprises and what I talk about there. Replace the capitalists with the workers threw competitive means and teach the people the better way of living first. Then when the Capitalist elite falter and the people are truly ready then you can make real change.

Social democracy wont work & I don't think the people ready for the Revolution. Until they are I will work to change the people around me and their ideas about working together and fighting against equality of all kinds.

What are you going to do?

[cyu]

Social democracy wont work & I don't think the people ready for the Revolution.
Control over the mass media (whether by the wealthy, by a single party, by a few parties, by the military, or by anarchists) determines whether people are ready for revolution. In other words, it's not a state of the population itself, it is an aspect painted onto the population by the means of communication.

1. Encourage everyone to assume direct control over their local media outlets. The wealthy may complain about losing their "freedom of speech" but there's nothing about freedom of speech that says the wealthy deserve to be heard more than the poor. (The wealthy do try to use self-rationalization to delude themselves that they "know better" than the poor - but those are merely attempts to prop up their own ego and ignore their conscience.)

2. If people expect resistance when assuming control of their local media, help ensure the people are well armed and able to protect themselves.

3. If people are attacked while assuming control of their local media outlets, protect them just as police are supposed to protect their people.

[ClawsandAwws]

The amount of slander people put out against Venezuela is ridiculous. I've never heard a news station not introduce Chavez has a dictator, he was democratically elected (more than can be said for Bush). What do these protesters think will happen if they topple their government? They will get a banana republic leader willing to do anything Washington says and their oil in the control of U.S. industry. These protesters don't make any sense.

[Siant]

Um, comrades in Venezuela? Haven't you heard of this thing called freedom of speech, which socialists should be upholding when capitalists aren't?

Seriously, even if these protesters are extremely reactionary, they have the right to protest. The only reason that they should be stopped is if they're actually preaching hate against a specific group simply because they exist, and even then they shouldn't be shot at.

Hello PreteenCommunist. I'm from Venezuela. I was born in Caracas. Now, let me explain you something. Those protesters weren't peaceful. They've destroyed public property like buses, subway stations, even nurseries.

The have murdered pro-government persons, military officers, etc. Then... Should we accept this behavior of the protesters? I don't think so. I'm sad about the people that were murdered, but our government isn't the only responsible of that situation.

Regards.

(Sorry for my english, I'm just learning).

[Mikula Mali]

Honor to the fallen comrade. Looks like this attack went unnoticed. Reactionary forces always feel untouchable. EspañolLate on Wednesday evening, one of Chavismo’s youth leaders in the National Assembly, Robert Serra, was murdered in his home. The attackers also killed the girlfriend and assistant of the 27-year-old representative from Caracas, María Herrera, as reported by state-sponsored outlet TeleSUR.
The revelation came with the finding of their bodies at 10:30 p.m. local time in La Pastora, a poor barrio in the north of the capital district. Initial reports suggest it was a vicious, bloody attack, presumably with knives, and allegedly carried out by a group of four culprits, as tweeted by El Universal crime reporter Deivis Ramírez Miranda.