Transgender Pathologization

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Transgender Pathologization (http://papierhache.wordpress.com/2014/01/29/transgender-pathologization/)


It is a symptom of the real disease at play here: transphobia. Like with other social ills, transphobia is a disease that causes those affected to stigmatize those whose body, gender identity, and presentation defies their preconceived notions of normalcy.

[Tenka]

Those statistics are depressing. And the pasted screencaps of comments... well, some people are beyond help; they simply refuse to understand, to imagine anything outside the narrow biological reductionism that simplifies the world they live in. I don't know what else to say. Heteronormative culture is a plague to LGBTQ people and any actual feminists (not the popular conservative Roseanne Barr variety of self-proclaimed such who are vehemently a part of this sick culture).

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

As with the word 'homophobia', I think a criticism can be applied the the language of 'transphobia'.

A phobia is an irrational fear or something.

Homophobia and transphobia imply that somebody is irrationally scared of gays and transgendered people. That's bullshit. They're not scared, they're just ignorant/assholes.

I was reading about Piers Morgan being an absolute turd about this earlier today, apparently making a trans-woman feel humiliated by asking her if she felt guilty for mis-leading people she's romantically involved with about once being a man. Fucked up shit - this should be as outrageous as any other social discrimination. Society clearly still has a huge problem with transgendered people, it's fucking sad.

[Comrade Jacob]

9 times the average!? Wow, I knew it was higher but damn, my heart goes out to them.

[Tenka]

As with the word 'homophobia', I think a criticism can be applied the the language of 'transphobia'.

A phobia is an irrational fear or something.

Homophobia and transphobia imply that somebody is irrationally scared of gays and transgendered people. That's bullshit. They're not scared, they're just ignorant/assholes.

I was reading about Piers Morgan being an absolute turd about this earlier today, apparently making a trans-woman feel humiliated by asking her if she felt guilty for mis-leading people she's romantically involved with about once being a man. Fucked up shit - this should be as outrageous as any other social discrimination. Society clearly still has a huge problem with transgendered people, it's fucking sad.


Bold is mine. I used to use "transgendered" even though I am trans myself; only very recently have I learned that being "transgendered" is fairly akin to being "homosexualled"! A small criticism.

Moving on, I think that a genuine fear is often involved in the trans-hate known as transphobia; a perceived threat to a social order with which the transphobe identifies. Mere ignorance often cannot fully account for it, and who would intentionally be an "asshole" to transgender people but someone who hates them or otherwise feels their very existence as a vague threat? The term transphobia is apt, I think; though perhaps a little too generously applied to those who are merely ignorant (as I believe Piers Morgan is, though I have not seen the described parts of the interview, just some clips on The Young Turks).

[Reticential]

Homophobia and transphobia imply that somebody is irrationally scared of gays and transgendered people. That's bullshit. They're not scared, they're just ignorant/assholes.

Yes, yes they are. However there's something to be said by calling it a fear, especially when it comes from 'macho' men. It could be argued that increases how pathetic they are to be afraid of something so harmless that has nothing to do with them.

Plus, it's not like violence and fear are incompatible.

Matryphobic would be the best way to describe people who fear women having equal rights.


being "transgendered" is fairly akin to being "homosexualled"!

This has completely blagged my head...is it? Admittedly I just say trans...I suppose it's different to phrases like 'gendered bullshit'...I'm pretty confused; it does sound like a bit of a redundancy, though, so it is probably a valid argument :P

[blake 3:17]

This page describes the rules around accessing sex reassignment surgery. While it is focused on Ontario, a number of the rules and guidelines are used all over the world (particularly the Standards of Care and the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders).

Click here to see the comic.

Click here for the text version. This version doesn’t have images and will be more accessible for screen readers.

If you are wondering what trans issues have to do with disability issues, the answer is: a lot. In addition to lots of disabled people being trans, trans people are classified as having “mental disorders” in the DSM and often constructed as disabled. Trans and disability are interlocked in many ways.

http://stillmyrevolution.org/2014/02/07/what-kind-of-operation-is-this-guide-to-the-camh-gender-identity-clinic-surgery-process/

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

A phobia is an irrational fear or something.
Merriam-Webster: Phobia = "an extremely strong dislike or fear of someone or something." Transphobia is thus a valid term.

[tallguy]

Transgender Pathologization (http://papierhache.wordpress.com/2014/01/29/transgender-pathologization/)I've just watched a video of Kat Hache. Good on her for doing what she had to do to make herself feel happy and whole.

But, Jesus wept, she is up her own arse. I am fully aware she had a shitty start in life, by the sounds of the ugly patriarchy she had to grow up in. I know all about ugly patriarchy and extreme violence since I grew up in just such an environment and it too me quite a few years of my early adult life to get my head unbent from all that happened to me and my siblings and start facing out into the world instead of disappearing into my own self obsessed vortex of woes. I get the feeling she has not done that and is engaging in a kind of narcissistic self obsession fest and I became frankly a bit bored after a while and so consequently didn't make it to the end of the video. Maybe I was just unlucky and landed on a video that was like that and the rest of them are not so self obsessed.

Despite all that has happened to her, she should perhaps consider that fact that, despite the deeply unpleasant environment she had to grow up in, she at least lived in a broader culture that provided at least sufficient space for her to become the person she needed to become and also afforded her the resources and technology to reach out tot he rest of the world. I'm not saying she should thank that culture. but, should at least recognise her luck in not living in an environment where even starker choices (or, rather lack of them), would have been available. Like, where her next meal was coming from, for example

Life isn't easy for lots of folks.

It's not easy for the girl who has her genitals ripped from her body so she cannot experience sexual gratification for the rest of the life

It's not easy for the kid who has to scrape an existence by sifting through the piles of shit that other people have thrown away.

It's not easy for the various people of non heterosexual orientation around the world who, daily, count themselves lucky if they merely manage to get to the end one still alive.

It's not easy for the billions of people who, every week, face the task of finding enough food to keep them and their loved ones alive to see the next week.

Maybe it's just a British/American thing. Maybe I just find the "look at me" thing doesn't sit so well with my British Northern stiff upper lip sensibilities.

I don't know

[Quail]

words

Sorry, but what? "Some people in the world have it worse than her so she should stop complaining" seems to be the gist of your post, which is not really an acceptable response. For most struggles, you could probably turn around and find someone who "has it worse" but that doesn't mean those struggles aren't important. Did you even read the article? The statistics about transgender people and suicide, self-harm, drug abuse, murder, etc., are really disturbing and that really shows what an important and urgent issue tackling transphobia and patriarchal gender norms is.

Your post comes across as really trivialising the struggle of transgender people so consider this post a verbal warning to think about the implications of your words in future.

[tallguy]

Sorry, but what? "Some people in the world have it worse than her so she should stop complaining" seems to be the gist of your post, which is not really an acceptable response. For most struggles, you could probably turn around and find someone who "has it worse" but that doesn't mean those struggles aren't important. Did you even read the article? The statistics about transgender people and suicide, self-harm, drug abuse, murder, etc., are really disturbing and that really shows what an important and urgent issue tackling transphobia and patriarchal gender norms is.

Your post comes across as really trivialising the struggle of transgender people so consider this post a verbal warning to think about the implications of your words in future.I don't trivialise any suffering of any person or group and it is merely your own preconceived prism of interpretation which causes you to interpret my post as doing that. My post referred to a video that was linked from her site and nothing more. Secondly, I think very carefully about every word I post and so do not need your counsel to do so. Nor do I view you "verbal warning" with anything other than disdain for not considering them in the way in which you would like me to do so.

If you don't like the above, then just get on with it and ban me from this forum. Otherwise, engage in actual, reasoned, open and frank discussion. In which case, I am more than happy to engage in return

I don't take well to bullying and threats Quail.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

Trans* people being hounded until they commit suicide is bullying - receiving a verbal warning on an internet forum because you practically denounced trans* people for their "first world problems", not respecting the western Kultur, attention-seeking etc. - is not.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

This page describes the rules around accessing sex reassignment surgery. While it is focused on Ontario, a number of the rules and guidelines are used all over the world (particularly the Standards of Care and the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders).

From what I have heard second hand, in Sweden, the psychologist and psychiatrists assessing the cases go to the point where they think that if someone has dyed their hair their claim is not "serious", and that (if, say, they are FTM) if they do not properly conform to the stereotypes of gender behaviour (if they do not have short hair as someone who is an ftm), then they might also regard it as not being serious and they are essentially forced to comply with this or be dismissed.

[Tenka]

I skimmed through the article again and cannot for the life of me find anything that could honestly be construed as "narcissistic" or "self obsessed". I guess I'd have to watch the video? But I am not sure how that's relevant to this discussion, nor all those other horrible things tallguy listed to apparently pooh-pooh anyone who has the means to articulate their own struggle actually using them.

P.S. You know you're on the wrong path when good ol' dodger's thanking your posts.

[tallguy]

From what I have heard second hand, in Sweden, the psychologist and psychiatrists assessing the cases go to the point where they think that if someone has dyed their hair their claim is not "serious", and that (if, say, they are FTM) if they do not properly conform to the stereotypes of gender behaviour (if they do not have short hair as someone who is an ftm), then they might also regard it as not being serious and they are essentially forced to comply with this or be dismissed.The above hit on a very important thing, I think.

If someone want to wear some clothes, then they want to wear some clothes. If someone wants to wear their hair a certain way, then they want to wear their hair a certain way. If someone wants some surgery to reassign their physical sexual feature, then that is what they want to do. If they want to label themselves as male/female/whatever, then fine. If someone wants or feels compelled to adopt a particular interpersonal/social behavioural repertoire, then fine. Where the problems occur is if the wider culture coerces them to conform to any gender role of any kind.

When we all just stop giving a shit is when this particular battle is won.

[tallguy]

I skimmed through the article again and cannot for the life of me find anything that could honestly be construed as "narcissistic" or "self obsessed". I guess I'd have to watch the video? But I am not sure how that's relevant to this discussion, nor all those other horrible things tallguy listed to apparently pooh-pooh anyone who has the means to articulate their own struggle actually using them.

P.S. You know you're on the wrong path when good ol' dodger's thanking your posts.
To repeat, my post referred to a video I liked to from the site and, in terms of that video, my interpretation of it's tone remains.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Life isn't easy for lots of folks.
No, it isn't, but your tone comes off as dismissive of what trans people experience just because some other people might have it bad, too.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

From what I have heard second hand, in Sweden, the psychologist and psychiatrists assessing the cases go to the point where they think that if someone has dyed their hair their claim is not "serious", and that (if, say, they are FTM) if they do not properly conform to the stereotypes of gender behaviour (if they do not have short hair as someone who is an ftm), then they might also regard it as not being serious and they are essentially forced to comply with this or be dismissed.
A friend who transitioned in Australia in the 1980s had trouble getting care because she liked to wear leather jackets and blue jeans, which in the eyes of the psychiatric gatekeepers meant she wasn't a "real woman."

[tallguy]

No, it isn't, but your tone comes off as dismissive of what trans people experience just because some other people might have it bad, too.In which case, I suggest you put the ideological knee jerk reaction to one side and re-read all of my posts on this thread.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

In which case, I suggest you put the ideological knee jerk reaction to one side and re-read all of my posts on this thread.
What's ideological about it and how is it kneejerk?

[tallguy]

What's ideological about it and how is it kneejerk?
Re-read my posts and you may have an answer.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Re-read my posts and you may have an answer.
I did read them. As a trans woman, I still feel like you're saying "well, at least...", which trivializes my experiences.

[Niall]

This may be a silly question but is it possible to be transgender without being transsexual?

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I did read them. As a trans woman, I still feel like you're saying "well, at least...", which trivializes my experiences.

Agreed, tbh, my initial thoughts when reading the typically Western "but the starving pygmies in the Congo..." emotional distancing behavior, were that I found it disturbing in that its usually not stated in the spirit of genuine concern but within this context (and others) is used as a means to invalidate the subject by characterizing the problems, subject or issues as seemingly minuscule, absurd or infantile by way of comparison. Not to be hypocritical but I also wanna say, ok? So? What's that have to do with the OP? The so called pathological behavior observed in transgender persons? The suffering of one doesn't negate the suffering of the other nor does the discussion or telling of personal struggles of a complex and serious psychological, social, political and economic situation.

[Tenka]

This may be a silly question but is it possible to be transgender without being transsexual?

I sure hope so, otherwise my transcredibility is thrashed to smithereens. The SRS operations are not affordable for many trans who want them, and to others the operation is not entirely satisfying and full of seemingly needless complications. Then there is the transgender label applied more broadly to people who do not identify as any gender, whom we shan't expect to be surgically de-sexed (that sounds dangerous, not to mention expensive).

Of course the old saying that "sex is what's between your legs, gender is what's between your ears" could apply, though I don't like its phrasing personally. I don't even believe genders have anything more to them than what society attributes to them, nor do I believe that the sexes are fundamentally different, but that's an irrelevancy, especially to the present-day struggles of people who do not conform to sex and gender norms or expectations.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

This may be a silly question but is it possible to be transgender without being transsexual?
Yes. Transgender covers multiple modalities of identification.