Israel fascist? (split off debate from Dieudonne thread)

[PhoenixAsh]

At the request of Ed Miliband a split off from the Dieudonne thread about the Quenelle.

The debate posts so far:



How is everyone falling fot this "Anti-Zionism" shit? It's just hidden anti-semitism.
Does anyone have an article on this subject?


Antizionism does not equate antisemitism. Antizionism is being against the fascist Israeli apartheid state. As for articles just do a search on RevLeft.


Accusing Israel of fascism (when it's clearly not a fascist state) is pure antisemitism. And the fact that you are calling me names, shows that you dont have any arguments.
And I have an idea of the treatment of the Palestinians. Yes the situation is shitty but the singular abolition of the Israeli State is pointless anti-semitic bullshit.
It's fucking hilarious how we non-Israelis are using double standards on the Israelis. In Basically every state of the world exists a huge amount of racism and sexism. But there aren't any ideologies like "antiindianism, antirussianism, antiamericanism or antizimbabwemizm" which are longing for the singular abolition of the state xy. This just happens with Israel and is a perfect example on how you antizionists are using unreflected critics to justify your antisemitism.


Well I didn't say that anywhere. But yes, there is a fair amount of self-hatred.
And I also didn't say that Israel represents every jew, but it represents a fair amount of Israelis (jew or not jew).
Unless there is aRevolution, the Israelis have the same right for self-determination as every other nation in the world has.


but of course to be an anti-semite is also to be an 'anti-zionist' in 2014 (but not necessarily the other way round it must be stressed)


Serious?

I not only accuse Israel of fascism...I also accuse them of committing genocide....but what is even more...I also accuse Israel of not only just contradicting the Talmud and Torah but actually of antisemitism. I also would really like you to realize that neither Zionism nor Israel equal Judaism.

**

The Quenelle isn't political in origin. The gesture itself isn't even French as it has been used in Holland decades ago...only breaking off at the wrist. It has been made political by both Dieudonne and the Zionist lobby. And I am sure it is used in an anti semitic fashion by now.


would you please give me a definition of what genocide means to you? 'cause obviously, I must have a totally different concept of this term.


"the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group""


What's your definition? My definition would be:
gen·o·cide
ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun

noun: genocide; plural noun: genocides
1.
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, esp. those of a particular ethnic group or nation.




I just copied and pasted from a google search, but essentially I'd say roughly the same thing


okay, that's fine with me. So Israel is killing large amounts of Palestinians every day, right? I mean, they got the IDF, their military power is absolutely overwhelming. How come there are plenty Palestinians left? I remember Bosnia 95, the Serb army was able to kill 7000 Bosniaks in a few days and it was classified as a genocide.


So how do you feel about the Armenian genocide?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide


How's Israel fascistic? It's not a militaristic state ruled by one party, longing for expansion.

Jeez i hate overused catchphrases.


Let me be honest about it, I don't feel informed (enough) to make a valid statement. The controversy about this one is big and there are good points that make all this a genocide, but I'm just not so super duper awesome informed to say def yes or no.


Whenever I follow leftist discussions in general, Israel seems relevant everywhere. No matter if it's about Palestine, capitalism or worker's rights in Oceania, Israel will appear everywhere.


Basically they are killing large amounts of Palestinians. Yet what I revered to was not the act of shooting civilians but rather the policy of gradual extermination of Palestinians.


you might want to prove this with a non-pallywood source, huh?

[Rosa Partizan]

So I guess it's on!

http://simhq.com/forum/files/usergals/2012/01/full-1725-26080-its_on.jpg

[PhoenixAsh]

you might want to prove this with a non-pallywood source, huh?


Pallywood source? I have no idea what that is. But ok...try B'tselem.


Although I will post a nice graph representation from this page...which is basically the collection of data of the deaths which result from direct hostile action and does not include deaths as a direct result from discriminatory policy or those dying and starving in the refugee camps: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

Note that I have no knowledge as to the origin of the website above. Just posted it for the graph.

Here is the B'tselem statistics page they reverence to http://www.btselem.org/statistics

[PhoenixAsh]

How's Israel fascistic? It's not a militaristic state ruled by one party, longing for expansion.

Jeez i hate overused catchphrases.

Really? Because the foundation of Israel is the expressed religious obligation by the state and representatives of that state that it is the religious duty to reclaim the entire region to Jewish ownership and restore biblical Israel.

On the other hand we have this handy visual representation of how Israel is NOT expansive:


http://www.palden.co.uk/pop/images/land-loss.jpg

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/01285/israel_1285383g.jpg


I rather call Israel a state fascist country where there is not one party but a dominant umbrella imperative that is rigorously controlling and dominating social and cultural life....and militarizing a very nationalistic society in a continued drive to expand and to survive by creating real and perceived internal and external enemies in specific ethnic groups (such as immigrants and Palestinians) and designating them a danger to society granting them limited rights.

[bricolage]

Here's a post (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1862971&postcount=8) I wrote before referencing another post I wrote before in which I talk about what is and what is not fascist. Seeing as a bit of it is about Israel and I still stand by what I wrote, I'll post that here. And I'll put a bit in bold that I think is most important is why it's essential to not brand a state like Israel fascist.


Zeev Strenhell writes "the hard core and the most radical variety of a far more widespread, far older phenomenon: a comprehensive revision of the essential values of the humanistic, rationalistic and optimistic heritage of the Enlightenment".

(Note, I got these quotes from introduction to political ideology books I had in my first year at university, I still think they are quite useful though.)

This is what I think is most important here the identification of fascism by what it opposed, as he states, 'the essential values of the humanistic, rationalistic and optimistic heritage of the Enlightenment'. Classically fascists have of course been very clear on this;

"We stand for... sheer categorical definitive antithesis to the world which still abides by the fundamental principles laid down in 1789"

"The year 1789 is hereby eradicated from history"

In practical terms probably the clearest example of this is the fascist opposition to liberal representative democracy, of course once again spilling over into the intense statism.

When we look at for example this French action against the Roma people we can see it is not being perpetrated by a state antithetical to this tradition but rather a state that still sees itself as the direct descendant of 1789 itself. Furthermore the entire legitimising principles of the French state are ones inherited from the Enlightenment and the French Revolution. Being able to conflate things like ethnic cleansing with fascism not only, as I said, buys into the discourse of the caring democratic state but actually has profound political implications beyond this. What it does is, by pushing everything 'bad' to the 'right', draws the fault lines at fascism versus not-fascism. However by shifting these lines, by showing ethnic cleansing etc is not unique to fascism we are able to reassert the actual fault lines of society, that the divide is not fascist vs non-fascist, by capital vs labour.

I think another good example of this is Israel. Israel as a state has obviously been responsible for horrific examples of ethnic cleansing, systematic exclusion and national oppression but it is by no means a fascist state. Of course there have been fascist groups in Israel (and in Zionist movements prior to its foundation), like there have been, and are, effectively fascist groups in France, but none of this means that the French state or the Israeli state, or the American state or the Greek state today are fascist states. Like I said this is an essential distinction if we are to redfine the paramaters of political discourse and to reassert where the real divisions in societal life lie.

[Rosa Partizan]

Have you ever heard of "intrafada"? Your stat is alright, but it's incomplete without the context of Hamas killing it's own people.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/archive/news/cameras-record-gazas-gruesome-reality/story-e6frg6tx-1111116374901

I'm not saying that the IDF does not kill civilians. Hell yeah, they do. But you have to consider this is kind of a vicious circle - one side attacks and the other strikes back and in the end you don't know who's started. Israel has the better "equipment", so it's clear that the number of Palestinian victims is higher. Though all this is fucking sad, it is neither one-way nor a genocide. Don't use this term so inflationary, please. If Israel really wanted to, they would smash Gaza in less than three days.

[PhoenixAsh]

Here's a post (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1862971&postcount=8) I wrote before referencing another post I wrote before in which I talk about what is and what is not fascist. Seeing as a bit of it is about Israel and I still stand by what I wrote, I'll post that here. And I'll put a bit in bold that I think is most important is why it's essential to not brand a state like Israel fascist.

Nobody said (yet) that the state of Israel was fascist because it killed people.

What was however said (for example by me) is that the state of Israel is fascists AND that it is committing genocide. Just because something is killing people doesn't mean it is fascist...however...just because it is killing people equally doesn't mean that it is not fascist.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Israel is by no means fascist. Fascism as a historical category is nothing more than an ahistorical mish-mash of regimes and ideologies that "Socialists" (social democrats) use as an excuse for class collaboration and liberal politics. So Marxism would be better off with simply throwing such a term in the trash bin and accepting that there is no such bogyman as fascism lingering behind the corner.

Israel is a settler colonialist state based on the displacement of the native populace by the invading colonists. Historically this has occurred when the imperialist nations of yesterday faced the duel problem of needing to subdue the native populace and increase their territory while needing to dispose of a population of undesirables. The earliest example is the infamous butchery of the first nations in "America" at the hand of the Puritans, Irish, Italians, and all other rejected minorities which eventually earned the title of "white" and became an imperialist power of their own. Such a phenomena has repeated itself in Australia, Canada New Zeeland, Latin America and further. Now it has repeated itself in Israel when the imperialists needed a platform to enforce their partition of the middle east. While the circumstances have changed, the Communist position has not. Complete and total opposition to colonialism and imperialism in all of its forms.

JMP has posted a good essay on this

http://www.davidpublishing.com/show.html?11965

[bricolage]

Nobody said (yet) that the state of Israel was fascist because it killed people.

What was however said (for example by me) is that the state of Israel is fascists AND that it is committing genocide. Just because something is killing people doesn't mean it is fascist...however...just because it is killing people equally doesn't mean that it is not fascist.
My post was from two previous threads on here so I admit that it might not match up completely to the discussion taking place.

I agree that the killing of people isn't really a count of how fascist or not something is, the slave trade killed millions as did the European empires - but these all existed prior to there even being something that could be called fascism. Likewise there was a essentially fascist state in Portugal and in the time it existed the definitely non-fascist USA probably killed a lot more people.

Fascism, in my opinion, was a historical moment more than anything else. It was a response to workers insurrection (ie. Italian bourgeoisie poured money into Mussolini after the Biennio Rosso/the Nazis grew on the back of failed revolutions in Germany) and it was a movement that defined itself by complete state control and disgust of liberal democracy/Enlightenment values. As I said, these can't be applied to Israel and to the extent that we can really call anything fascist these days it doesn't apply to the Israeli state. I've yet to see any argument that Israel is a fascist state that don't rely on the that Palestinians are ruthlessly oppressed (a horrific situation but one that does not determine fascism) or crude comparisons to the Third Reich/a tendency to throw fascist at anything 'bad' (a stupid situation).

[ThePeoplesProf]

How's Israel fascistic? It's not a militaristic state ruled by one party, longing for expansion.

Jeez i hate overused catchphrases.

Google these two words and choose a source you find reasonably trustworthy: Israel + sterilization

...and you'll learn how the state of Israel has forcibly injected Ethiopian women immigrants with birth control. The parallels to the "master race" purity of the Holocaust era are tragic and underscore the utter and unabashed hypocrisy - and yes, also the fascistic character - of Israel...

(I'd post a link myself but I'm too recent of a RevLeft member, and so the site won't let me yet)

I'm curious to see how you'll respond to this!

[bricolage]

Was Canada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization_in_Canada) fascist?
Was the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_in_the_United_States#Compulsory_steriliza tion)?
What about Peru (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsory_sterilization#Peru)?

The point is this: democratic bourgeois states are sometimes just as capable as acting as horrifically as fascists.

[Sasha]

Google these two words and choose a source you find reasonably trustworthy: Israel + sterilization

...and you'll learn how the state of Israel has forcibly injected Ethiopian women immigrants with birth control. The parallels to the "master race" purity of the Holocaust era are tragic and underscore the utter and unabashed hypocrisy - and yes, also the fascistic character - of Israel...

(I'd post a link myself but I'm too recent of a RevLeft member, and so the site won't let me yet)

I'm curious to see how you'll respond to this!

Countless countries forcibly sterilized gypsies etc, doesn't make them fascist.
Not everything you don't like is fascist, while there are certainly fascist (like) groups in Israel Israel itself is not fascist. There are certain parallels to be found with different countries through history, most prominently apartheid south Africa obviously but also Germany during the rise, but pre dictatorship foundation, of Nazi Germany but under no way its fascist. Trying to prove it while its not is is just a counterproductive distraction

[ThePeoplesProf]

It seems to me that your vehement insistence that Israel is not fascist is based primarily on how the state treats its own citizens (and through that lens, sure, Israel seems quite democratic and even progressive). However, when I and others claim that it is fascist, we're bringing attention to the way it treats Ethiopian immigrants, Palestinians and others that it oppresses within or close to its borders. I'd rather say let's just agree to disagree because this isn't the sort of debate that will end up being entirely comradely or even productive...

[bricolage]

It seems to me that your vehement insistence that Israel is not fascist is based primarily on how the state treats its own citizens (and through that lens, sure, Israel seems quite democratic and even progressive). However, when I and others claim that it is fascist, we're bringing attention to the way it treats Ethiopian immigrants, Palestinians and others that it oppresses within or close to its borders. I'd rather say let's just agree to disagree because this isn't the sort of debate that will end up being entirely comradely or even productive...
Exactly. But fascism can't be defined solely as type of foreign policy or a way of behaving towards non-citizens, it has to include the fact that fascism is primarily a form of state organisation and a political ideology. A large part of that ideology is often the exclusion from the state/nation/citizenry of those deemed 'other' but that's not all it is. The thing is, by your own admission you're misusing the term fascism.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

I think the most useful characterization of fascism is that due to Trotsky - a mass movement of the petite bourgeoisie, the lumpenproletariat and declassed elements, mobilized for a reactionary purpose by the big bourgeoisie. I think that, by this definition, present Israel is not fascist, although the Zionist administration in Palestine might have been.

Nonetheless, Israel is, as has been noted, a settler-colonial state, like former French Algeria. "Democratic" states aren't any nicer to subject peoples than fascist ones!

[PhoenixAsh]

I think the most useful characterization of fascism is that due to Trotsky - a mass movement of the petite bourgeoisie, the lumpenproletariat and declassed elements, mobilized for a reactionary purpose by the big bourgeoisie. I think that, by this definition, present Israel is not fascist, although the Zionist administration in Palestine might have been.

Nonetheless, Israel is, as has been noted, a settler-colonial state, like former French Algeria. "Democratic" states aren't any nicer to subject peoples than fascist ones!

That is ironic...because I was going to use the exact same quote to argue that Israel was indeed fascist.

Although Paxtons definition of Fascism might more easily illustrate why Israel fits the description. "a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."

[ThePeoplesProf]

Exactly. But fascism can't be defined solely as type of foreign policy or a way of behaving towards non-citizens, it has to include the fact that fascism is primarily a form of state organisation and a political ideology. A large part of that ideology is often the exclusion from the state/nation/citizenry of those deemed 'other' but that's not all it is. The thing is, by your own admission you're misusing the term fascism.

Ok, if we really want to get specific (and why shouldn't we, after all?) my original comment used the word "fascistic". Yes, in subsequent comments, I typed "fascist" in haste, but realize that subtle linguistic nuance of that "-ic" suffix. It's the suffix that means "pertaining to or characteristic of" whatever precedes it, in this case fascism. The state of Israel is fascistic, without a shadow of a doubt. It may not 100% fall under the definition of fascism but it has enough of the characteristics that it's disingenuous to even be getting into this semantic debate when the truth is that the U.S.-backed Israeli state is outright oppressing large numbers of people to the dismay of most of the world community which, increasingly, no longer wishes to dignify it by recognizing its sovereignty. As I said before, I'm really not interested in debating this further. I'd much rather be working with leftists who are aware of what's going on and have enough humanity and integrity to be critical, to be organizing, to be active in BDS campaigns, etc.

Edit: I'm just adding that the very name of this thread and the way it frames this debate is part of the problem, as I explained above.

[bricolage]

See, nothing I've said is to say that Israel is not "outright oppressing large numbers of people", or to excuse Israeli colonialism, historical moments of ethnic cleansing, the occupation and carving up of the West Bank, the maintenance of Gaza as an effective prison, the exploitation and oppression of African migrants, the support given to other repressive regimes, and so forth and so forth... What I've always said is that in a situation where all these things occur and when they are being perpetuated by a state that is not fascist it's all the more important to reinforce how that state is not fascist. The flip side of not doing this is that it's assumed that only fascism can organise state oppression and that states that are not fascist (in most cases those descended from liberal democracy) can never do this and are always loving, caring, un-militarised, etc. The British state fought fascism while committing genocide in Bengal, the USA did it while practicing institutionalised racism. It's absolutely essential to remember this. Trying to make clear these facts does not then mean that you are not "aware of what's going on and have enough humanity and integrity to be critical".

[ThePeoplesProf]

What I've always said is that in a situation where all these things occur and when they are being perpetuated by a state that is not fascist it's all the more important to reinforce how that state is not fascist... Trying to make clear these facts does not then mean that you are not "aware of what's going on and have enough humanity and integrity to be critical".

Listen, if you wish to invest your time, political energy and awareness to argue until you're blue in the face that Israel is not fascist, that's entirely your prerogative, but just don't get in the way of the rest of us leftists who are actually actively organizing against the fascistic state of Israel while you're spending your time arguing online... (Incidentally, you still have yet to address this important aspect of my claim, and have preferred instead to focus solely on the term fascist) Perhaps you're actively organizing too, in which case, great (and my apologies for the assumption)... If that is indeed the case, however, then that organizing work should probably be prioritized above intransigently belaboring this point to death on an internet forum...

[bricolage]

Like you've said yourself, you have no idea what organising I'm involved in or what I have been involved it, mostly you are just making assumptions because I don't agree with your 'fascist/fascistic' arguments - and sure if you want to do this in my opinion fascistic is a made up word, but I doubt you want to hear that. If you read what I said I said that understanding that Israel is not fascist is actually integral to being involved in meaningful Palestinian solidarity work.

Oh and it's probably no the best idea to accuse someone else 'belaboring this point to death on an internet forum' when you're doing the exact same thing.

[ThePeoplesProf]

...I don't agree with your 'fascist/fascistic' arguments - and sure if you want to do this in my opinion fascistic is a made up word, but I doubt you want to hear that. If you read what I said I said that understanding that Israel is not fascist is actually integral to being involved in meaningful Palestinian solidarity work.

Comrade, first of all, I hope you understand that I agree that Israel is not 100% fascist in the full sense of that term. We really need to stop talking past each other. Furthermore, "fascistic" is indeed a word. Whether you like it or not, that's the wonder of suffixes, prefixes, infixes, etc. in the English language (and in many other languages); such additions add nuance to help explain and understand an extremely complex world. The world is not black and white or divided simply into fascists and non-fascists, but also includes groups with several characteristics of fascism (i.e. fascistic entities), and this is crucial to understand in order to more effectively resist and oppose fascists and fascistic forces alike all over the world. (I would count the National Front here in France as a fascistic force, and a very mighty one at that) All I'm doing is calling you out for willfully choosing to ignore this aspect of linguistics because it happens to suit your argument to ignore it. If you had actually acknowledged the validity of the distinction I've made, which any reasonable person with a grasp of linguistic nuance would, then the point would not have needed to be belabored at all and yet you continued to talk past me, obstinately using a term (i.e. fascist) which I had carefully distinguished in an earlier comment.

I will state one final time, unequivocally, for all who may read this: it is my political conviction that the state of Israel, while not being strictly 100% a fascist state is nonetheless absolutely a fascistic state, that is, one with characteristics of fascism which need to be taken seriously.

In order to avoid contributing to drawing out this thread any further, this is my last post here, regardless of what you respond (unless of course it's reciprocation of my final comradely words, in which case I would thank you). Like I said, the way this thread is even framed in the title automatically makes this about the term fascist. I've introduced an important nuance to the debate and I'd be satisfied with the prospect that hopefully someone reading this thread eventually might find my contribution useful.

Can't we just stop fighting each other comrade, and get back to fighting capitalism?

Solidarity.

[Sasha]

Although Paxtons definition of Fascism might more easily illustrate why Israel fits the description. "a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."

was the netherlands during the indonesian independence war fascist? it fits that description to a tee...

[Sinister Intents]

Has anyone brought up the 14 points of fascism? I'll post it here.
14 POINTS OF FASCISM
http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif

From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.
2. Disdain for the importance of human rights http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif

The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.
3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif

The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people’s attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite “spontaneous” acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and “terrorists.” Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.
4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif

Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.
5. Rampant sexism http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif

Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.
6. A controlled mass media http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif

Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes’ excesses.
7. Obsession with national security http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif

Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting “national security,” and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.
8. Religion and ruling elite tied together http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif

Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite’s behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the “godless.” A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.
9. Power of corporations protected http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif

Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of “have-not” citizens.
10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif

Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.
11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif

Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.
12. Obsession with crime and punishment http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif

Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. “Normal” and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or “traitors” was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.
13. Rampant cronyism and corruption http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif

Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.
14. Fraudulent elections http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif

Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.
http://www.ellensplace.net/space_1.gif
NOTE: The above 14 Points was written in 2004 by Dr. Laurence Britt, a political scientist. Dr. Britt studied the fascist regimes of: Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile).

http://www.ellensplace.net/fascism.html

[bricolage]

Well I'm not convinced that fascistic is a meaningful term. I agree with you that the world is not black and white, I also believe that political ideologies are certain things (and more to the point that communists generally understand fascism to be a very specific thing) and that you can't bend them around to fit individual arguments. Israel may have some of the characteristics of what you consider to be fascism but I'm sure if we actually looked into it they would apply to a lot of countries in a lot of periods, making the whole thing irrelevant again.

But like you said, this argument is only going around in circles.

[blake 3:17]

It's a mistake to call Israel fascist.

It would also be a mistake to treat it as just another bourgeois democracy. It is extremely highly militarized and failure to serve in the military leads to social stigma and economic barriers.

I do encourage people to support the international BDS campaign: http://www.bdsmovement.net/

It was denounced by Netanyahu and local right wing Zionists in the past few days, largely over the Scarlett Johansson thing : http://www.680news.com/2014/01/29/scarlett-johansson-stepping-down-as-oxfam-ambassador-over-sodastream-deal/

[fear of a red planet]

Essentially Israel is a modern liberal democracy, the only one in the region as we're frequently reminded.

This is what liberal democracies do sometimes and to characterise it as something different whether fascist or a "settler" state with unique aspects is to let liberal democracy off the hook.