Opinions on Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Cong

[LeninWithACat]

I do not see this discussed often in Leftist circles. I know we side with the anti-imperialist North Vietnam in the Vietnam War, but what are the actual opinions on the ideology of North Vietnam itself? What are some appraisals and criticisms of the country?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

A nationalist fighter who sided with the Americans against the Japanese and the Russians against the French and American occupiers later, who formed the political and philosophical backbone of the Vietnamese independence movement. When I say nationalist fighter, I mean a fighter who's primary goal, since he was a student at Versailles in 1919, was always Vietnamese sovereignty first, revolutionary socialism second. (I am not saying he was some right wing nationalist like a Vietnamese Chiang Kai-Shek). It just so happened, in my opinion, that the road to sovereignty lay through revolutionary socialism and alliance with the soviets against the then-unwelcome Americans.

Like all other countries in Asia not named China, they are happily working with and becoming stronger allies with the US to stay that way. His successors have made Vietnam an ally of the USA, and our Navy regularly conducts war games with the Vietnamese. The USS John S McCain made a port call in Hanoi, a interesting situation to say the least. after the most recent military exercises between the two countries.


The U.S. will provide an additional $32.5 million to help Southeast Asian nations protect their territorial waters and secure navigational freedom, Kerry said. Vietnam alone will receive up to $18 million, including five fast patrol-boats that will be given to the Vietnamese Coast Guard, he said. With the new contribution, U.S. maritime security assistance to the region will exceed $156 million over the next two years, the State Department said.
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/12/16/kerry-announces-new-us-maritime-security-aid-to-vietnam-amid-china-tensions/
“You fools! Don't you realize what it means if the Chinese remain? Don't you remember your history? The last time the Chinese came, they stayed a thousand years. The French are foreigners. They are weak. Colonialism is dying. The white man is finished in Asia. But if the Chinese stay now, they will never go. As for me, I prefer to sniff French shit for five years than to eat Chinese shit for the rest of my life.”

Uncle Ho

[Brutus]

Leader of a bourgeois-nationalist struggle, and should be seen as nothing more.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I would like to also point out that it was a very brave, long, innovative, and courageous struggle fought against several groups of brutal occupiers whos ultimate victory was an incredible example to the rest of the exploited world.

[Blake's Baby]

So what? Germans in the 1930s praised Hitler for being a brave and strong fighter who stood up to their evil enemies. The British still praise Churchill for being brave enough to stand up to Hitler, etc etc.

What does support for a bourgeois nationalist have to do with socialism?

[Baseball]

So what? Germans in the 1930s praised Hitler for being a brave and strong fighter who stood up to their evil enemies. The British still praise Churchill for being brave enough to stand up to Hitler, etc etc.

What does support for a bourgeois nationalist have to do with socialism?


Marx was fairly "bourgeoise" and a bit of a nationalist- he certainly supported German nationalism with the reciprocal exclusions of non-Germans in a unified German state.

[Sinister Intents]

Marx was fairly "bourgeoise" and a bit of a nationalist- he certainly supported German nationalism with the reciprocal exclusions of non-Germans in a unified German state.

What's your source? I wouldn't call Marx bourgeois at all, he was rather poor. I don't remember seeing anything about him being nationalist, but I haven't read too much Marx, I should, and I will eventually.

[PhoenixAsh]

Right.

Founding member of the French Communist Party. Member of the Comintern. Founding member of the Communist Party of Indochina. Adviser to the communist army in China. Left wing activist from very early age.

Not just a nationalist. In fact Ho Chi Minh was not really friendly to non communist nationalists. He had them killed mostly. Just like Trotskyists...didn't like them either.

US support was during WWII against the Japanese. China hatred...and the basis of the quote posted in this thread about rather having the French...was because Chiang Kai Chek was having a couple of 100.000 men camp in the North of Vietnam. He had Ho Chi Minh captured a few years earlier and now dissolved the communist party and forced a national unity government. So yeah....Ho Chi Minh chose to side with the French seeing as they didn't have 250k troops in Vietnam.

After the Maoist revolution in China the agreement between Vietnam, Russia and China was that China would support the revolution and war of independence in Vietnam.

Now....policy wise...Ho was a realpolitiker and understood how to consolidate power through use of tactics, cunning, force and murder.

He was an authoritarian...so yeah...that says it all really....given my tendency you can fill in what I think of him and the Vietnamese communist party.

Both the Viet Minh, the PAVN and the FLN committed horrible crimes. As well as the RNV government/politbureau....often purposefully killing communists in the process.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Before going to the Soviets he visited America in order to get backing financially and militarily on the assumption that the Americans would be sympathetic to an anti-colonial struggle but he was snubbed and ran to the fSU. I think this speaks volumes. Interesting guy though I guess?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

So what? Germans in the 1930s praised Hitler for being a brave and strong fighter who stood up to their evil enemies. The British still praise Churchill for being brave enough to stand up to Hitler, etc etc.

What does support for a bourgeois nationalist have to do with socialism?

Nothing, though comparisons between the anti-colonial struggle in Vietnam and the rise of Nazism in Germany are dubious at best. I merely did not want to suggest the fact that the Vietnamese did not fight long and hard to secure their independence with my earlier post.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Right.

Founding member of the French Communist Party. Member of the Comintern. Founding member of the Communist Party of Indochina. Adviser to the communist army in China. Left wing activist from very early age.

Not just a nationalist. In fact Ho Chi Minh was not really friendly to non communist nationalists. He had them killed mostly. Just like Trotskyists...didn't like them either.

I admit my oversimplification, but the question remains: Was he a communist because of belief in the socialist system or because Comintern was the only force that would provide help to anti-colonial struggles around the world?

How many syrians let Islamists in thinking it was the only force capable of beating assad? A lot larger number than actually want sharia law implemented, that's for sure.



US support was during WWII against the Japanese. China hatred...and the basis of the quote posted in this thread about rather having the French...was because Chiang Kai Chek was having a couple of 100.000 men camp in the North of Vietnam. He had Ho Chi Minh captured a few years earlier and now dissolved the communist party and forced a national unity government. So yeah....Ho Chi Minh chose to side with the French seeing as they didn't have 250k troops in Vietnam. The Vietnamese, to this day, are terrified of the prospect of China encroaching on their sovereignty. Hence the aforementioned naval arrangements with the US Navy, allowing the US and its allies to complete the encirclement of China (at least by sea).


After the Maoist revolution in China the agreement between Vietnam, Russia and China was that China would support the revolution and war of independence in Vietnam. Absolutely...until China stopped following the Sino-Soviet split, began supporting the Khmer Rouge as a counterweight to Vietnam, and restored diplomatic relations with the US while it was carpet bombing Hanoi in order to force peace talks.


Both the Viet Minh, the PAVN and the FLN committed horrible crimes. As well as the RNV government/politbureau....often purposefully killing communists in the process.If you want to make an omelet...

[Baseball]

I admit my oversimplification, but the question remains: Was he a communist because of belief in the socialist system or because Comintern was the only force that could provide help to anti-colonial struggles around the world?

He studied socialism in France. He joined the Communist Party after 1920.
He was yet another in a longline of communists/socialists who were also nationalists, or had drunk from that cooler.

He was a committed believer.

[PhoenixAsh]

Before going to the Soviets he visited America in order to get backing financially and militarily on the assumption that the Americans would be sympathetic to an anti-colonial struggle but he was snubbed and ran to the fSU. I think this speaks volumes. Interesting guy though I guess?

Really? When did he do that then? Visiting America. He did write letters asking for political pressure on the French and for recognition of Vietnam (no country recognized the declaration of independence).

He did this based on the promise of the US OSS of independence during the previous 5 years in return for the assistance of the Viet Minh against the Japanese in their effort to expand guerilla warfare against the imperial armies.

Hence why he thought the US would be sympathetic. Don't forget either that at that point FDR was siding with Chiang Kai Check and Stalin against Churchill on the issue of colonialism. So the bid to the Americans wasn't proof of seeking capitalist help but rather logical wisdom.

Also do NOT forget that Ho Chi Minh was NOT a huge fan of Stalin and Stalin had little to no interest in Vietnam at that point.

Furthermore China was not yet communist. And Ho was just arrested and only released in 1943 (again on the intervention of the US) by Chinag Kai Check

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

He was a committed believer.

I admit I misinterpreted his convictions.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Really?

Yes, I also believe he was staying in the US at one point (for 2 years) and admired American and Wilsonian politics and admired historical American figures like the rapist, Thomas Jefferson, before being snubbed by that douchehole racist Wilson.

go here (http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/war.crimes/US/Wilson.htm#WILSON%20SNUBS%20HO%20CHI%20MINH)

also read dis friend (http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/rendezvous/2012/08/28/did-the-u-s-lose-ho-chi-minh-to-communism/)

[PhoenixAsh]

I admit my oversimplification, but the question remains: Was he a communist because of belief in the socialist system or because Comintern was the only force that could provide help to anti-colonial struggles around the world?


Valid question and during/after the American phase of the Vietnam war this became a large part of the alternative historical narrative in the US. This was necessary because the US recruited the help of the Viet Minh during WWII when the Viet Minh was a relatively small player and Vietnamese independence was all but ensured. The OSS deer team had stated that Ho was not a communist but rather wanted nothing more than independence. Which was a wrong assessment since the majority of the Vite Minh and its leadership was communist/socialist. They were misled. Because the US miscalculated and official government support became somewhat of a embarrassment when the US became militarily involved the question was raised: did we make Ho Chi Minh a communist because we supported the French and British after WWII? In other words...because of
the Vietnam war and its costs the US historians began to reevaluate the role the US played in it foreign policy.

The evidence they often cite for this viewpoint is that both the USSR and Maoist China questioned Ho Chi Minhs communists position. Which is not surprising because Ho Chi Minh was neither a Stalinist nor a Maoists and did not walk the official Moscow party line.

However...it was more than opportunistic politics.

He became a socialist at a very early age. Became very active in establishing communist parties in both France and Indochina. And was instrumental in establishing the Maoist armies in China before the revolution. During and prior to WWII non communist factions were steadily eliminated from the Viet Minh and nationalist independence groups outside the VietMinh were often targeted and destroyed.

Which all indicate that the primary objective was not only independence but also socialism.

Whether or not he became a communist because that provided the best chance for independence was decided a long long time before he actually had any power or influence on the course of Vietnam.



How many syrians let Islamists in thinking it was the only force capable of beating assad? A lot larger number than actually want sharia law implemented, that's for sure.

Very true. Thompson stated: There is a final result of Vietnam policy I would cite that holds potential danger for the future of American foreign policy: the rise of a new breed of American ideologues who see Vietnam as the ultimate test of their doctrine. I have in mind those men in Washington who have given a new life to the missionary impulse in American foreign relations: who believe that this nation, in this era, has received a threefold endowment that can transform the world. As they see it, that endowment is composed of, first, our unsurpassed military might; second, our clear technological supremacy; and third, our allegedly invincible benevolence (our "altruism," our affluence, our lack of territorial aspirations). Together, it is argued, this threefold endowment provides us with the opportunity and the obligation to ease the nations of the earth toward modernization and stability: toward a fullfledged Pax Americana Technocratica. In reaching toward this goal, Vietnam is viewed as the last and crucial test. Once we have succeeded there, the road ahead is clear. In a sense, these men are our counterpart to the visionaries of Communism's radical left: they are technocracy's own Maoists. They do not govern Washington today. But their doctrine rides high.

Which is exactly what is happening now. They never learn ;)





The Vietnamese, to this day, are terrified of the prospect of China encroaching on their sovereignty. Hence the aforementioned naval arrangements with the US Navy, allowing the US and its allies to complete the encirclement of China (at least by sea).


True. But then again Chiang Kai Checks presence in Vietnam was a horrible experience with rape and murder and pillaging. So this is logical.




Absolutely...until China stopped following the Sino-Soviet split, began supporting the Khmer Rouge as a counterweight to Vietnam, and restored diplomatic relations with the US while it was carpet bombing Hanoi in order to force peace talks.




Very true indeed

[PhoenixAsh]

Yes, I also believe he was staying in the US at one point (for 2 years) and admired American and Wilsonian politics and admired historical American figures like the rapist, Thomas Jefferson, before being snubbed by that douchehole racist Wilson.

go here (http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Reading/war.crimes/US/Wilson.htm#WILSON%20SNUBS%20HO%20CHI%20MINH)

also read dis friend (http://mobile.nytimes.com/blogs/rendezvous/2012/08/28/did-the-u-s-lose-ho-chi-minh-to-communism/)

He lived in the US in 1911-13 and again in 1917-18. Between that he lived in England. After 1918 he lived in France where he joined the communist party in 1920.

He was active in Versailles...after he already joined the socialists.

And the admiration for Jefferson is not some aberration...the declaration of independence was born out of the ideologies of the French Revolution...which are closely tied with socialism. Especially the part where you need capitalist development before you can have a communist revolution.

Lenin called the American revolution one of the "great, really liberating, really revolutionary wars," which began the history of the modern capitalist United States.

The need for capitalism to develop before you can have an effective socialist revolution (in the eyes of some tendencies) also is a very likely explanation why Ho Chi Minh sought close ties with the US. Vietnam was a rural non developed country...and there fore needed rapid development for which it needed resources, finance and knowledge...all of which were more abundantly present in the US.

Also...that Jefferson was a rapist is not widely known these days...let alone back then. Always evaluate history based on contemporary points of view.

[Mrcapitalist]

The Vietcong were brutal.They put these things called Punji sticks in booby traps so you would fall in and get impaled on them and they usually had frog poison or human feces on them.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

The Vietcong were brutal.They put these things called Punji sticks in booby traps so you would fall in and get impaled on them and they usually had frog poison or human feces on them.

Unfortunately those traps are ineffective against napalm.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

The Vietcong were brutal.They put these things called Punji sticks in booby traps so you would fall in and get impaled on them and they usually had frog poison or human feces on them.

i suppose that begins to seem like a fairly reasonable choice after your home has been carpet-bombed, your family napalmed and liquid cancer pissed all over your fields and forests :P

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

The Vietcong were brutal.They put these things called Punji sticks in booby traps so you would fall in and get impaled on them and they usually had frog poison or human feces on them.

Unlike, you know, delicious land-mines spraying shrapnel and shredding limbs to stumps? Those truly are the hallmark of civilisation. Then having to spend 40 years trying to get rid of all the mines all over the place...

[Bostana]

Marx was fairly "bourgeoise"
You can tell he was by the way he lived in the slums of soho and how he didn't own any private property

[boiler]

I think Ho Chi Minh was a mixture or nationalist and socialist, similar to James Connolly.

[boiler]

The Vietcong were brutal.They put these things called Punji sticks in booby traps so you would fall in and get impaled on them and they usually had frog poison or human feces on them.

I think its a nice fitting death to an imperialist invader :) There is only one thing worse than been impaled on a bamboo spike and that's impaled on a bamboo spike that is covered in shit. When your pulled off it you'll die a horrible death by some type of disease lol
Maybe not as good as napalm but it they done the trick nicely.

[Illegalitarian]

You can tell he was by the way he lived in the slums of soho and how he didn't own any private property


Or, you know, by the way he had a "maid" that he uh.. never paid.. ever.


Irrelevant, though. Just as irrelevant as the fact that Ho Chi Minh's Vietnam eventually ended up as another mixed market comprador state, or the fact that he placed the liberation of his homeland above the liberation of the working class.

What a load of privileged Trotskyist horseshit that is as a criticism. Ho Chi Minh and his Viet Cong liberated the people of French Indochina and dealt a devastating blow to imperialism for over 40 years, giving many people the best socialistic society possible under such circumstances, at least for a few years.

He wasn't perfect but let's not start shitting on revolutionaries who dedicated their lives to fighting for the freedom of oppressed and exploited peoples, and successfully, just because they didn't take home the gold in the proleier-than-thou Olympics.

[blake 3:17]

Much respect to Ho Chi Minh and the people's struggle to free Vietnam.

Saw an old comrade on May Day & we got talking and it came around to him having seen some French military commander heaping praise the Vietnamese on their willingness to fight. They had nerve and audacity.

I do admire Ho's prison poems.

[thriller]

I do not see this discussed often in Leftist circles. I know we side with the anti-imperialist North Vietnam in the Vietnam War, but what are the actual opinions on the ideology of North Vietnam itself? What are some appraisals and criticisms of the country?

As far as actually implementing socialism, well... Capitalism really didn't exist to the point of massive industrialization needed for a highly developed proletariat at the time of US imperialism in the area. Vietnam at the moment seems quite developed for the area. Part of this is due to policies set in place by Vietnam once the North took Saigon. The rebuilding that took place was extensive and difficult but quite impressive. Part of it is due to opening up towards the West. It does not seem to be moving towards socialism at the present moment. Didn't McDonalds and Pizza Hut get introduced right before the fall of the fSU? :)
Ho Chi Minh is quite well respected in Vietnam itself, IMHO. He helped lead the fight against both French and American imperialism. I guess some people refer to him as "Uncle" (not sure if this is a play off of Uncle Sam). I think it is important for myself to remember the cultural lens in which Ho Chi Minh can be viewed considering I have no history or connection in which I can associate with imperialism and being part of a systemically oppressed group. I would not compare him to George Washington, but to Sitting Bull in the sense that he was leading a fight to allow native rights to predominate in the face of imperialism. First Vietnam had to endure the hardships of colonialism under the guise of "the white mans burden" and then imperialism in the form of anti-Communism. He did study in France. He was very dedicated to national sovereignty. He was not a proletariat. Do these three negative aspects make his struggle or his legacy non-revolutionary or non-socialist? To me, probs not.


So what? Germans in the 1930s praised Hitler for being a brave and strong fighter who stood up to their evil enemies. The British still praise Churchill for being brave enough to stand up to Hitler, etc etc.

What does support for a bourgeois nationalist have to do with socialism?

Honestly, this seems like a straw man argument considering the material conditions are EXTREMELY different. Germany invading other areas, it was not being occupied. Power structures and historical context within those constructs are crucial to understand the difference, significance, and uniqueness of armed conflicts. People cheered on W. Bush for being strong enough to stand up against big bad "terrorists" and go to war in Afghanistan and Iraq. Does that mean Ho Chi Minh is the imperialist or is W the national liberator?

[tachosomoza]

A tireless fighter for the liberation of the Vietnamese nation from imperialism.