Nationalist Anarchist/Leftist

[dylanfenton]

I am very frustrated with the system at the moment and am currently taking notice and liking Anarchist/leftist views, I am also proud of where I come from, the UK, is it possible to be an Anarchist/Commie/Leftist/Socialist who is Proud of where they come from ?, I am avidly interested in current events I am not too familiar with anarchism so if anyone could answer my question it would be greatly appreciated ! :)

[Sinister Intents]

I am very frustrated with the system at the moment and am currently taking notice and liking Anarchist/leftist views, I am also proud of where I come from, the UK, is it possible to be an Anarchist/Commie/Leftist/Socialist who is Proud of where they come from ?, I am avidly interested in current events I am not too familiar with anarchism so if anyone could answer my question it would be greatly appreciated ! :)

Nationalism/patriotism don't mix with anarchism comrade. To be proud of you heritage is alright, but to be proud of atrocities committed by the monarchy wouldn't be so good. Emma Goldman wrote a good essay on patriotism: Patriotism, a Menace to Liberty (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/goldman/works/1911/patriotism.htm). For other information you can do some reading here: Anarchist FAQ (http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/index.html)

[#FF0000]

To be proud of you heritage is alright

Nah it ain't. At best you're insufferable with it like every other Irish-American youth I grew up with who went through a Flogging Molly/Dropkick Murphys and flat-caps phase. At worse you're goose-stepping and crying about immigrants.

[Atsumari]

Organizations that expressed nationalism in a healthy way were groups such as the Black Panthers and I Wor Kuen, but one could argue they were internationalist given their radical anti-racism and solidarity with the working class and oppressed people around the globe.
I do not have a problem with nationalism that seeks to make your existence known against a form of oppression that defines who you are rather than the group themselves, but other than that, most forms of nationalism expressed tends to be pretty damn reactionary, and it is not uncommon for left-wing nationalists to end up becoming jackasses in the end.

[Sinister Intents]

Nah it ain't. At best you're insufferable with it like every other Irish-American youth I grew up with who went through a Flogging Molly/Dropkick Murphys and flat-caps phase. At worse you're goose-stepping and crying about immigrants.

Indeed this is very true, I reject all nationalistic/patriotic bullshit. I'm not proud to be an American.

[The Feral Underclass]

I am very frustrated with the system at the moment and am currently taking notice and liking Anarchist/leftist views, I am also proud of where I come from, the UK, is it possible to be an Anarchist/Commie/Leftist/Socialist who is Proud of where they come from ?, I am avidly interested in current events I am not too familiar with anarchism so if anyone could answer my question it would be greatly appreciated ! :)

What is your pride based upon?

[DOOM]

First of all, an anarchist can't be a nationalist par definition, since the goal of classic nationalism is the creation of a nation state and because the anarchist movement is an international movement. As Marx said, the working men have no country.
And don't get into this shit, nationalism is bullshit. It leads to xenophobia or even racism, which are generally said bad and idiotic things.

[Full Metal Bolshevik]

Being proud of something you had nothing to do with is highly irrational and ilogical.

[boiler]

What's the Anarchist view on national liberation struggles? do they support them?

[Sinister Intents]

What's the Anarchist view on national liberation struggles? do they support them?

I don't support the nationalist bullshit, but I support people liberating themselves from oppression. I guess it would depend on the group and situation, fuck nationalism and patriotic bullshit.

[Skyhilist]

Being proud of something you accomplished is fine, and even great in some cases. Being proud of something that was decided at your birth is just stupid, because it just happened by accident. To quote George Carlin:

“Pride should be reserved for something you achieve or obtain on your own, not something that happens by accident of birth. Being Irish isn't a skill... it's a fucking genetic accident. You wouldn't say I'm proud to be 5'11"; I'm proud to have a pre-disposition for colon cancer.”

That said, I don't think there's anything wrong with having an affinity for certain characteristics. For example, I am from North Carolina and absolutely love southern food (so long as I can make it vegan). I love rooting for the UNC tar heels, and the natural aesthetics of the Outer Banks, and the Smokey Mountains. But I'd never say that I'm "proud" to be from the south because of those things. I may like them, but I'm certainly not responsible for their creation, so they don't represent anything that I can be proud of.

[Skyhilist]

What's the Anarchist view on national liberation struggles? do they support them?

It depends on the context I think. In some cases most anarchists would say that it shouldn't be supported in all. For example, in Syria the "national liberationists" are completely reactionary and wouldn't help anything, so they aren't worth supporting (neither is the regime but that's a different story).

However, other movements we might wish success in the short term, even while hoping for the abolition of all countries in the long term. For example, anarchists usually support Palestinian liberation from Zionist oppression as a short term goal, which might be labelled due to its nature as a "national liberation" movement. But while we support perhaps a one state Palestine (not Israel), for example, as a short term goal, our long term goal is still that all states and countries be abolished.

[boiler]

I don't support the nationalist bullshit, but I support people liberating themselves from oppression. I guess it would depend on the group and situation, fuck nationalism and patriotic bullshit.

Yeah I pretty much agree with you nationalism and patriotism is bullshit.
Say for instance there's a country being occupied by an imperialist power would, you support the people of the occupied country if they fought the imperialist power for their country liberation?

[boiler]

It depends on the context I think. In some cases most anarchists would say that it shouldn't be supported in all. For example, in Syria the "national liberationists" are completely reactionary and wouldn't help anything, so they aren't worth supporting (neither is the regime but that's a different story).

However, other movements we might wish success in the short term, even while hoping for the abolition of all countries in the long term. For example, anarchists usually support Palestinian liberation from Zionist oppression as a short term goal, which might be labelled due to its nature as a "national liberation" movement. But while we support perhaps a one state Palestine (not Israel), for example, as a short term goal, our long term goal is still that all states and countries be abolished.

Thanks for this. Iv Been wonder for a while now what is the anarchist stance on national liberation struggles.

[Sinister Intents]

Yeah I pretty much agree with you nationalism and patriotism is bullshit.
Say for instance there's a country being occupied by an imperialist power would, you support the people of the occupied country if they fought the imperialist power for their country liberation?

Indeed. I would support their efforts for liberation, fuck the imperialists!

[Dodo]

I am very frustrated with the system at the moment and am currently taking notice and liking Anarchist/leftist views, I am also proud of where I come from, the UK, is it possible to be an Anarchist/Commie/Leftist/Socialist who is Proud of where they come from ?, I am avidly interested in current events I am not too familiar with anarchism so if anyone could answer my question it would be greatly appreciated ! :)

Being proud of where you come from is completely an irrational thing. It is, "false conciousness". That is to say, you can identify yourself with things unique to "where you come from". I am from Turkey for instance, I have an immense interest in Turkish history, mainly war history which "nationalists" love so much. But I am aware that this is to me, completely personal and has no "superiority" over others thing. I like the products of this culture(which also includes cultures this one has interactd with) such as music for instance. I find a lot things about collective historical experince fascinating. But that is it.
Long story short, I keep it to myself. It has no place in my political views.

An anarchist or Marxist, by their fundemental definitions are against nationalism/patriotism. They are dismissed for the fact that they are social constructs not connected to material realities of life and reproduce a false-consiousness that makes people tools in politics of ruling classes(and that is a big deal because you can not produce proper politics if you are going through a confusion of that scale). It is a way of manipulation even if it is used unconciously. The ideas that comes with patriotism/nationalism represent a certain class's interests. Not to mention they are metaphysical/idealist just like religion.

So no, you can not be patriot if you are to be an anarchist. Besides, if you actually grasp anarchism, you would either dismiss it right away or dismiss patriotism right away depending on your decision.

[boiler]

Indeed. I would support their efforts for liberation, fuck the imperialists!

I have been reading some anarchist writings over the last while, but I didnt find anything on national liberation. So thank you and Chomsssssssky to for your comments they have helped me understand anarchism a little bit more.

[Ocean Seal]

Nah it ain't. At best you're insufferable with it like every other Irish-American youth I grew up with who went through a Flogging Molly/Dropkick Murphys and flat-caps phase. At worse you're goose-stepping and crying about immigrants.

Allow me to take a controversial point here. Its okay to wave your flag around and do things for the sake of tradition, if you leave it out of anyplace meaningful it actually creates an interesting debate. River dancing has never killed anyone (I hope at least). It might be annoying, but this isn't a subject to which the left should concern itself.

[Blake's Baby]

There's a difference between liking (or even tolerating) a form of dancing, and waving a flag (any flag, except a red or black one).

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Pro-imperialist (i.e. the US or UK) nationalism is one of the worst forms of nationalism.

[WilliamGreen]

Danielle put it best.

When most people say they are proud of the place they come from they are talking about the best of the spirit of the people which has nothing to do with the "nation". That's a great side of humanity, simple as that.

So leftism is about saying yes people have value, yes we should have systems of equality and respect, etc.

Nations I don't know, maybe have a role maybe don't depends on your political views.

I associate anarchist so I could give a shit less about nation states unless they're in a moment of history towards ridding the world of thinking about our fellow people as "others". ;)

[Os Cangaceiros]

I have been reading some anarchist writings over the last while, but I didnt find anything on national liberation. So thank you and Chomsssssssky to for your comments they have helped me understand anarchism a little bit more.

http://saasha.net/2013/10/09/anarchism-and-the-national-liberation-struggle-bonanno-arm-1994-south-african-edition/

[Ocean Seal]

There's a difference between liking (or even tolerating) a form of dancing, and waving a flag (any flag, except a red or black one).
Suppose there is an event whereby something like sticking with the example of Riverdancing, Irish flags are present and it is an event decided on celebrating Irish culture and heritage. I don't think that this can be considered a wing of nationalist politic simply because nationalists are likely to support it.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Nah it ain't. At best you're insufferable with it like every other Irish-American youth I grew up with who went through a Flogging Molly/Dropkick Murphys and flat-caps phase. At worse you're goose-stepping and crying about immigrants.

I understand what you're saying re: Irish Americans (I lived for a good period of my life on Long Island NY, so the whole "plastic paddy" phenomenon is something I know well, unfortunately, although there are quite a few Irish nationals there as well). But at the same time if someone of indigenous ancestry showed an interest in their heritage, I doubt that leftists would take such a dismissive tone about it. I've met quite a few Athabaskan people up here who have a pretty wide interest and knowledge of their own culture and nation, and I don't really see a problem with that. I've never seen it take a supremacist tone so you could argue that it's not "pride" in the same sense as "white pride" (a concept which doesn't make any sense to me, regardless of how one looks at the issue), but then I think we get into semantics about what is and isn't "pride", etc.

I don't agree with nationalism but I understand why people would retreat into it, just like I can see why people would retreat into religion or, yes, even the far left in order to attempt to ascertain meaning out of what is undoubtedly, to me, a pretty meaningless existence. It would be literally impossible for me to adopt blood and soil nationalism, though (although pure idiocy has never stopped nationalists before). As Kafka put it: "what do I have in common with the Jews? I don't even have anything in common with myself!"

[Devrim]

It depends on the context I think. In some cases most anarchists would say that it shouldn't be supported in all. For example, in Syria the "national liberationists" are completely reactionary and wouldn't help anything, so they aren't worth supporting (neither is the regime but that's a different story).

However, other movements we might wish success in the short term, even while hoping for the abolition of all countries in the long term. For example, anarchists usually support Palestinian liberation from Zionist oppression as a short term goal, which might be labelled due to its nature as a "national liberation" movement. But while we support perhaps a one state Palestine (not Israel), for example, as a short term goal, our long term goal is still that all states and countries be abolished.

I wouldn't say that most anarchists would support Palestinian nationalism. Some of course would. Many, in fact I would think the majority of, anarchist organisations would be opposed to it. Take for example this from the aims and principles of the UK Anarchist federation:


4. We are opposed to the ideology of national liberation movements which claims that there is some common interest between native bosses and the working class in face of foreign domination. We do support working class struggles against racism, genocide, ethnocide and political and economic colonialism. We oppose the creation of any new ruling class. We reject all forms of nationalism, as this only serves to redefine divisions in the international working class. The working class has no country and national boundaries must be eliminated. We seek to build an anarchist international to work with other libertarian revolutionaries throughout the world.

Devrim

[Devrim]

I understand what you're saying re: Irish Americans (I lived for a good period of my life on Long Island NY, so the whole "plastic paddy" phenomenon is something I know well, unfortunately, although there are quite a few Irish nationals there as well). But at the same time if someone of indigenous ancestry showed an interest in their heritage, I doubt that leftists would take such a dismissive tone about it.

I would. When 'heritage' becomes a part of people's politics, it is always reactionary backward nonsense.

Devrim

[consuming negativity]

Whew. For a second I thought this thread was going to be about those "national anarchist" fascist fucks. Their weird combination of anarchism and nationalism led them to want to have little community groups that all say "no non-whites allowed". IIRC (and it's distinctly possible that I don't recall correctly), they were some of the brains behind trying to take over that town in the Dakotas and turn it fash.

Anyway, nationalism is shit and that's already been covered. As far as "American indians being interested in their heritage", what does that even have to do with anything? I think it's great that people from historically oppressed racial/ethnic groups are taking steps to make sure that the thoughts and traditions of all people and not just white people are known... or, at least, not destroyed under the jackboot of imperialism. That's a lot different than nationalism as in "murka!" "patriotism", or nationalism as in "we're going to take up arms against the government and demand our own separate state apparatus to oppress us". Although, frankly, I can sympathize with and understand a group of people who haven't become proper revolutionary leftists wanting to at least be oppressed by people who look like them and live in their area - it all goes back to a desire that many of us share, to not want to be ruled over by some fuckass miles and miles away who has no idea what your life is like. They just don't take it as far. Whatever.

[PhoenixAsh]

am also proud of where I come from, the UK, is it possible to be an Anarchist/Commie/Leftist/Socialist who is Proud of where they come from ?,

Well...yeah...sure...you can be whatever you like. But ideologically this doesn't mix with anarchism for several reasons.

Anarchism in its core rejects the notion of the state and of nations. These are seen as instrumental constructs by the economic and social elites in order to subdue by creating division between people, and most specifically: the working class. They are also constructs that automatically create hierarchy within society and monopolizes the power of force.....and thus contradicts the autonomy of individuals.

Ideologically Anarchism rejects and opposes any form of society that is not based on non-hierarchical free association. As such it would be very strange to take pride in the past accomplishments of a country which absolutely will not only not conform to these ideals but also be based on actions, policies, economic systems and elites we would absolutely oppose.


the best of the spirit of the people which has nothing to do with the "nation". That's a great side of humanity, simple as that.

Culture and traditions are shaped by the history and institutions of the (evolution of the ) nation and the hierarchical structures within that nation
and therefore the nation shapes "the people".

You also have to ask yourself: What people? What constitutes "people" in this sense? Why is this specific to the region of England/UK and what sets it apart from all other people?

And when you answer those questions you will see that that has everything to do with nation and the history and evolution of the nation.
But the real fact is...you can not define "the <insert country> people". It is impossible. You can't even do this on a village level and you most definitively can't do it on a national level without extreme subjective generalization.

Even more so when you consider the fact that Anarchism is an internationalist ideology it would be strange to create what effectively constitutes a "we are better than" label.

But even outside the scope of ideological incompatibility.

Most of it wasn't by choice. You were born there. So far you haven't contributed to either the nation or to the general spirit of the people. Nor have you contributed to the historical achievements of individuals.

And if you are proud of your heritage...and the best of the spirit of the people....does it then not follow you should also be ashamed of the worst of the people and the worst of the heritage? And when you realize these two can not be separated because they are all integral part of the same generalization...can you even still be proud?

(for example: Your son got a big promotion. You could be proud of it, because it is an achievement. But he got it through dumping waste in an other country where children are now dying. Can you now still be proud
of the achievement?...it is after all an integral part of the achievement. )

So you should really ask yourself what it is that you are actually proud of.


traditions and cultural heritage & anarchism

* Traditions and cultural expressions fall into several categories. Those which are created by the state and/or elite and are there to glorify either. * Those which serve to remember or recognize achievements in service of the state and elite perpetrated against other countries/or people.
* Those of religious origin
* Those of folk origin.
etc.

There is nothing wrong with partaking in certain cultural and traditional expressions or enjoying them....but it would be extremely weird if anarchists support those which either glorify state, elite or religion.


National liberation

Anarchists are somewhat ambivalent on this subject because it entirely depends on certain prerequisites.

But generally speaking the notion of national liberation is rejected when it isn't part of a socialist internationalist orientated revolution because its aim is to create a nation state.

On the other hand...the choice between imperialism/colonialism and national liberation is a tougher nut to crack.

Generally speaking...revolutionaries ideologically should not take sides in bourgeoisie conflicts. Because ultimately it is the international working class unity we should be concerned with. Not which bourgeoisie faction wins.

[Five Year Plan]

I am very frustrated with the system at the moment and am currently taking notice and liking Anarchist/leftist views, I am also proud of where I come from, the UK, is it possible to be an Anarchist/Commie/Leftist/Socialist who is Proud of where they come from ?, I am avidly interested in current events I am not too familiar with anarchism so if anyone could answer my question it would be greatly appreciated ! :)

Why are you proud of where you came from? Did you choose to be born where you were born? Does it reflect on your superior intellect or hard work? Or, as happens with literally every person in the history of civilization, did you happen to be born on some arbitrary spot on the planet that you had no role in selecting, and that is controlled by ruling classes who want you to believe you should be proud of being exploited by them, and not some other ruling class?