Midlands Discussion Forum - Workers Councils or Parliament?

[Baritz]

The 'events' page of the SPGB website is advertising a discussion/debate at the M.D.F. on "Workers' Council, Parliament - which way forward to socialism?"

Adam Buick is speaking for the SPGB.

It's in Birmingham on February 15th, 2014, at 2.00 p.m.

Venue: Anchor Pub, 308 Bradford St, Birmingham B5 6ET
(About 13 minutes walk from Birmingham New Street rail station)

[whichfinder]

http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/event/workers-councils-or-parliament-which-way-forward-socialism

[Sabot Cat]

Workers' Councils, of course. They're decentralized, autonomous units of proletarian power expressed through the principle of direct democracy and consensus decision-making. You can't get much better than that, in my opinion.

[The Idler]

I would like to see who is speaking against the SPGB. Even just what tendency or organisation they are representing.

[freecommunist]

I would like to see who is speaking against the SPGB. Even just what tendency or organisation they are representing.

An independent Left Communist will be putting forward a anti-parliamentary perspective, if that is what you are asking.

[The Idler]

A poster at Libcom.org suggests this is a discussion not a formal debate
http://libcom.org/forums/announcements/midlands-discussion-forum-workers-councils-or-parliament-27012014

[Blake's Baby]

No, I think ALB is suggesting it's not going to be a 'sterile' debate. Our (from the MDF's side) understanding is that is a 'formal' debate as such, with an MDFer and a SPGBer each making a presentation.

I like the bit on LibCom about how the SPGB 'refused' to be put in the position of counterposing councils to parliament; firstly because the MDF (which isn't a Left Communist organisation anyway) never said that it should counterpose them, and the meeting notice with the oh-so-wrong title was the one the SPGB published anyway.

[The Idler]

If this 'refusal' is more sloppy language, I'm not going to be happy.

By the way, if it's a debate, then surely it's not SPGB against MDF? MDF is composed of anyone who turns up so would include the SPGB? My understanding was it was SPGB debating against a left communist. The MDF is not exclusively left communist?

[Blake's Baby]

The MDF is not 'exclusively Left Communist'. For the first 6 years I was going I was an Anarchist, we have had a long-term member who's a Council Communist, we even had an SPGB sympathiser turn up for a year or so. The MDF is open to whoever comes to it.

I think it is, to an extent, 'the SPGB against the MDF'. Which is a bit strange, as the MDF isn't a political organisation and doesn't have a 'line' that it defends. The comrade who will be putting the presentation for the MDF is putting his personal opinion - one which to a greater or lesser extent, the majority of the people who are likely to be there as 'the MDF' are going to share to be sure; but his personal opinion nevertheless.

It sounds a bit weird to me, and I have had some qualms about it, but this is (in my understanding at least) what we were offereed by the SPGB and we decided to take it. It might not work, in which case we'll have learned not to do it again, and we'll try to meet the SPGB under different 'rules' in the future. If it does work, that's fine.

As to the relationship between the MDF an the SPGB, it's never been entirely clear to the MDF how the SPGB conceived of the members who have come along. The ICC and ICT send delegates. They're there as representatives of their organisation. The AF and IWW on the other hand don't send delegates, members of those organisations who turn up do so as individuals. We're not sure if SPGBers speak for their organisation or not (though obviously this time, it's a meeting with 'official' SPGB representatives).

[The Idler]

If the weathers not too bad, I might go to this.

[Blake's Baby]

If the weather's too bad, I might not go to this!

[freecommunist]

The two introductory texts can be found here from the meeting along with a link to the audio which is still being processed.
http://www.freecommunism.org/introductory-texts-from-the-meeting-the-role-of-workers-councils-in-socialist-revolution/

[freecommunist]

NH97bFQPz7Q

[The Idler]

I just downloaded the audio file of this and will give it a listen.

[Blake's Baby]

Shame you couldn't have stayed for longer Idler, your input would have been appreciated.

[The Idler]

I stayed long enough to cringe at one person rudely interrupting you more than once. It so happens that I have just been reading an article in the Socialist Standard from September 1964 entitled The Futility of Legality. This notion is something I'm tempted to raise, particularly if it persists, although it was even discussed last year at ADM.