A question for Europeans.

[Yuppie Grinder]

What are your thoughts on the EU? Of course I'd hope no one on here would see any bourgeois institution as legitimate, but how do you feel about different movements specifically opposed to the EU? Are they pretty nationalistic in nature? What are they generally like in terms of ideological content. Sorry if this is a really stupid question, I'm an ignorant midwestern American.

[Ocean Seal]

As an American, and correct me if I'm wrong, I think that the most common leftist positions on anti-EU movements is that some of them are legitimate while others rest on romanticized nationalism. For example, there is good reason to believe that the less successful countries of the EU are getting screwed with high interest loans from the IMF that they are forced to take to continue their EU membership, along with the fact that their poor performance keeps their currency cheap which allows more successful countries like Germany to export goods and make quite the profit.

So the Greek anti-EU movement enjoys support from the left, while the British anti- EU movement I would imagine that most leftists are either against or neutral towards.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Fuck the EU, but yes, indeed, there are a lot of misguided nationalists who oppose the EU for all the wrong reasons. The most common leftist trend - and when I say leftist I mean this broadly, not the radical left - it seems to be, is a sort of cautious optimism where they imagine that the EU is a neutral force whose direction they can manipulate through participating in the European parliament and other bodies. This is a sickness I know affects certain users of this site as well.

In the current situation I cannot see much potential for any constructive action. If we are to be idealists, a sort of counter-EU regional collaboration would perhaps be a preferable alternative, but I cannot see this being possible in anyway. The EU remains staunchly conservative and dominated by its heart, which is to say Germany and France, and from its very origins as a economic free-trade zone it's scarcely conceivable it can ever change in fundamental nature.

I would say that the wise thing then would be to simply reject the EU as an organisation, as a structure, but naturally not reject the concept at heart of a regional and international collaboration - but this goes without saying, surely! - but likewise reject most of the anti-EU groups, who mostly are xenophobic nationalists. In its efforts to equalise the conditions over the European area, the EU government typically seeks to deregulate the markets and crush union organisations (particularly in the west where they have been strong; in the east, they work against their formation or assure their compliance).

[GiantMonkeyMan]

There's a group called No2EU, Yes to Workers' Rights or whatever it is mainly fronted by the RMT union but it doesn't get much attention or support. It's pretty clear to most people on the left that even the pretence of democracy as we see in bourgeois parliament is not present in the EU as virtually all the key positions are appointed and not elected but there's an undercurrent among the centre-left, guardian readers, that leaving the EU would be bad for the economy and not to take a knee-jerk position in case of instability and I think that bleeds over a little into the far-left as well.

Frankly, I'm pretty sure that if UKIP weren't about the far-left opposition to the EU would be more vocal but no-one really wants to be tarred with the same brush as those turds. I'm personally against the EU as an organisation, as Takayuki says, but think it's a difficult subject to organise around.

[Axiomasher]

What are your thoughts on the EU? Of course I'd hope no one on here would see any bourgeois institution as legitimate, but how do you feel about different movements specifically opposed to the EU? Are they pretty nationalistic in nature? What are they generally like in terms of ideological content. Sorry if this is a really stupid question, I'm an ignorant midwestern American.

The most vocal opposition to the EU does seem to be right-wing nationalist parties. At root the conflict is between those who support the EU for advancing the machinery of the capitalist class in general terms (the more outright 'liberal' section of the capitalist class) and those who oppose it, seeing it as an obstacle to localised (national) capitalist monopolies and cultural orientations (the more conservative end of the capitalist class spectrum). Capitalists as individuals are, of course, always pragmatic, so they support the EU when its operations are likely to make them more money and oppose it when they think its operations are likely to make them less. Here in the UK the Conservative Party (currently in power) have a big internal problem as there are significant pro-EU and anti-EU camps within it.

[Manic Impressive]

So the Greek anti-EU movement enjoys support from the left, while the British anti- EU movement I would imagine that most leftists are either against or neutral towards.
Actually SPEW of the CWI is on the anti-EU bandwagon trying to cash in on some of the xenophobia that UKIP has stirred up. However, they use a front called NO2EU http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/keyword/No2EU

Don't even have the guts to represent their own policies, it's just sad.

The SPGB position is that it is not a class issue whether we are ruled from Westminster or Brussels. Yet EU membership is probably slightly better as at least workers get certain benefits such as free movement within the EU zone.

I also think a unified Europe makes the possibility of world revolution far easier for the working class. By the mere fact that it's easier to topple one government than it is to topple multiple governments. In time having Europe unified may also help to destroy some of the petty national antagonisms Europeans feel towards each other.

[Full Metal Bolshevik]

I don't like EU, but worse is the Euro.

I do think it's great to move anywhere I want in Europe without restrictions, though I recently learned I couldn't just pick a country to live in forever, they make you get a job, and if you can't get one in a few months you have to leave. Of course you can return and start again.

[Futility Personified]

Recently in my volunteering capacity for the job centre, i've been phoning people and asking their opinion on behalf of a political party in the UK. Largely the opposition to the EU lies in xenophobia, though I did have a really nice conversation with one bloke who told me "it's just the rich ****s in another country telling our ones what to do, makes no difference to me". He made my day, that bloke did. I vaguely understand it's role in curtailing workers rights etc, which is to say i've heard it does, but I haven't actively researched myself. Having always wanted to escape England, the looser travel restrictions greatly appeal to me, and a lot of what it does to wind up the right wing are amusing too.

For this tiny brain, ultimately the EU is just capitalist real-politik. Unless future legislature from the EU is brought in that directly impinges on workers rights and the standard of living, I don't really know what to think/do/think about doing about it. Follow the lead of whatever the workers on the mainland do, I guess.

[helot]

Recently in my volunteering capacity for the job centre, i've been phoning people and asking their opinion on behalf of a political party in the UK. Largely the opposition to the EU lies in xenophobia, though I did have a really nice conversation with one bloke who told me "it's just the rich ****s in another country telling our ones what to do, makes no difference to me". He made my day, that bloke did. I vaguely understand it's role in curtailing workers rights etc, which is to say i've heard it does, but I haven't actively researched myself. Having always wanted to escape England, the looser travel restrictions greatly appeal to me, and a lot of what it does to wind up the right wing are amusing too.

For this tiny brain, ultimately the EU is just capitalist real-politik. Unless future legislature from the EU is brought in that directly impinges on workers rights and the standard of living, I don't really know what to think/do/think about doing about it. Follow the lead of whatever the workers on the mainland do, I guess.


That guy sure does sound awesome. What do you mean 'volunteering capacity for the jobcentre'? Only people i've come across that are 'volunteers' and linked to the jobcentre is people on workfare.





Anyway, as for the EU i couldn't give a fuck. The debate on the EU in the UK is bullshit. It's framed as either the EU defends human rights (obvious bullshit) or it's an attack on "our sovereignty" which ofc is more bullshit as the workers don't have sovereignty anyway and the obvious "well, if you don't like a bunch of rich fucks in Brussels deciding your fate why is a bunch of rich fucks in London doing the same any better?" tends to elicit blank stares.


What i do like is the talk of a referendum on the EU as i think it's a con. Any fool would realise that if the UK left the EU there's no way dominant EU states would allow the UK to be part of the EEA. No, they'd want to punish the UK through fears it might exacerbate the EU falling apart. The EU is, afterall, the biggest trading partner for the UK. It'd spell financial ruin. And i'm sure the tories know this they just don't want to lose the pissing contest with UKIP.

[Futility Personified]

Helot: The words used to describe it were "work placement", I can imagine in retail it's got to be the worst thing ever but where I am it's not too bad, the people i'm working with are quite lenient about when I come in, what I do, etc, my travel is paid for too. Though it is constantly in my mind that i'm getting zilch, my CV needs it. Gives me breathing space from looking for jobs that just aren't there too.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Actually SPEW of the CWI is on the anti-EU bandwagon trying to cash in on some of the xenophobia that UKIP has stirred up. However, they use a front called NO2EU http://www.socialistparty.org.uk/keyword/No2EU
The No2EU campaign is mainly the brainchild of the RMT union and Bob Crow. We try to keep a good relationship with the RMT as it's the only large union outside the grip of the Labour Party and so support a lot of their campaigns but, from my personal experience, the No2EU campaign hasn't really come up at all in regards to any organising my branch has done.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

The No2EU campaign is mainly the brainchild of the RMT union and Bob Crow. We try to keep a good relationship with the RMT as it's the only large union outside the grip of the Labour Party and so support a lot of their campaigns but, from my personal experience, the No2EU campaign hasn't really come up at all in regards to any organising my branch has done.

RMT, eh? What is with them and taking xenophobic and reactionary positions? Dodger was, unsurprisingly, a member.

[GerrardWinstanley]

I think people on the left who think they could take advantage of some potential emergence of Brussels as a rival power to the Washington are mistaken, since it is has always been, and will continue to be, a servant of American foreign policy by design and and actually has no agency of its own in foreign affairs that does not concern NATO's interests. It is a vehicle for the immiseration of countries at its economic periphery, including the former Eastern bloc, for the benefit of multinational, generalised monopolies. SYRIZA's willingness to accommodate Greece's membership of the EU under intolerable conditions and its leader Alexis Tsipras' manifest ambitions are no coincidence.

With that said, the political culture of the UK is even further to the right than the IMF, let alone the EU (Jacques Delors, then President of the European Commission, had to guarantee certain modest labour protections as a condition for persuading the big unions to accept the Maastricht Treaty... something the Thatcherite Brit right never forgave him for) so in many ways, it's a moot point in this country. Outside of some sections the ruling class --principally in financial services-- anti-EU politics in England is virtually the exclusive domain of racists and fascists, who supply it with its provincial petty-bourgeois rank and file. What they hate about the EU has less to do with hatred of the ruling class (except for reasons of anti-intellectualism and moral hygiene... they are the dreaded 'elites') than with the unwelcome presence of immigrants and human rights legislation. This also holds true for people who falsely presume to be speaking on behalf of the Left. (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/28/we-need-eurosceptic-party-centre-left)

[GiantMonkeyMan]

RMT, eh? What is with them and taking xenophobic and reactionary positions? Dodger was, unsurprisingly, a member.
All unions have their share of reactionaries. It comes with the territory of representing large sections of the working class though the RMT is actually pretty good in this regard, though what that says about the other trade unions (particularly the likes of USDAW of which I'm a member) I don't know... I think the No2EU campaign is crap, not framing the debate in the right way, but I wouldn't call it 'xenophobic'.

[tuwix]

What are your thoughts on the EU? Of course I'd hope no one on here would see any bourgeois institution as legitimate, but how do you feel about different movements specifically opposed to the EU? Are they pretty nationalistic in nature? What are they generally like in terms of ideological content. Sorry if this is a really stupid question, I'm an ignorant midwestern American.

I have mixed feelings about the EU. From one side, it's very nice to travel thousand kilometers without any passport. Before there were controls on borders and you could get into the jail for trespassing border in unauthorized place. And now nobody cares about that in the EU.
Besides for us, form poorer countries of the EU, there is chance for better or any job in richer countries. And it is obvious that for 60 years there weren't build so many highways than in the last decade of the EU membership of my country.

Nonetheless, I don't forget the EU purpose. All those things I listed above were just side-effects because the main purpose to create the EU was an
expansion of capital to conquest further and further...

In terms of anti-EU organisations, I cant; say anything good about them. They are appealing to hatred against other nations frequently maintained by historical education. In the UK, those organisations want to "get rid of Poles". In Poland, those organisations want to "get rid of German capital" and only German.... And so on...

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

As Tenka already said, there's a lot of Nationalists against the EU for the wrong reasons, namely Nationalism!

I hear a lot of people here in the Netherlands who claim we should gtfo of the EU because we need to keep the foreigners from flooding the national jobmarkets (which, funny enough, is warned for every couple of year, but is still to happen).
Pure nationalist thoughts.
There are even some who claim the Netherlands should become selfsufficient, which only shows their stupidity (the Netherlands are way to small, with way to many people and virtually no industry or farming).


So now my stance on the EU...

I am against the EU. They are gaining a lot of power and control fast. They tend to ignore national and regional problematique. Plus, it is inherently capitalist and it looks like it's corporatism is gaining more and more momentum.
It's large, centralised government is higly susceptible to the increasing amount of lobbyist groups that have found their ways to it. For example: last year the EU was planning on a law to ban all seeds but those from Monsanto, Bayer and DuPont. It was, so they claimed, "to make an end to pests and diseases plagueing the European farmers". Sadly for them, as a reaction, a lot of countries and farmers burned down large fields of GMO-crops.


Just look at the purpose of the EU. What is it made for? Economic benefits for it's members. Nothing more.