What's the far-left views on the left wing

[E-Shock Executioner]

As you know, it's well known in the far-left that the central-left are utter bullshiter free market loving shitheads

Such as social democrats

But what about democratic socialists, the most adverdage ass of the Intire left wing

They seek through democratic means to ban the private sector, put in a welfare state, ban all managers/CEOs in factory's.

Are they seen as merely doomed to fail with good ambitions/ or seen in the same light as social democrats?

[SmirkerOfTheWorld]

Some have good intentions. Some are definitely careerist and cynics...

[Marshal of the People]

I like democratic socialists, I would call them my comrades. I don't dislike social-democrats, it is just that I don't agree with all of their views, but they are far better than anything further right.

[Atsumari]

Hey, I don't like social democrats myself, but to call them "central-left are utter bullshiter free market loving shitheads" is just lazy. Social democrats are very much against the free market and you often see them everywhere at anti-privatization protests. But I guess you do have a point ever since Third Way became mainstream in "socialist" parties

[The Intransigent Faction]

Democratic socialists aren't all bad. George Orwell is a great example. If anything they at least serve to remind us that the goal is not revolution for revolution's sake, but for socialism.

Social Democrats, however, can be relied on to defend the capitalist system when the going gets tough. They try to change the system on its own terms, using its own class system as a backdrop that's taken for granted. At worst they consciously try to rescue capitalism by putting a "human face" on it. At best, they honestly believe that it's the best "realistic" option available, so they fail to challenge the ideology and class system of capitalism, but frame their reforms on its terms.

[Queen Mab]

Engels' view:


Finally, the third category consists of democratic socialists who favor some of the same measures the communists advocate, as described in Question 18, not as part of the transition to communism, however, but as measures which they believe will be sufficient to abolish the misery and evils of present-day society.

These democratic socialists are either proletarians who are not yet sufficiently clear about the conditions of the liberation of their class, or they are representatives of the petty bourgeoisie, a class which, prior to the achievement of democracy and the socialist measures to which it gives rise, has many interests in common with the proletariat.

It follows that, in moments of action, the communists will have to come to an understanding with these democratic socialists, and in general to follow as far as possible a common policy with them – provided that these socialists do not enter into the service of the ruling bourgeoisie and attack the communists.

It is clear that this form of co-operation in action does not exclude the discussion of differences.


As for me, I consider self-proclaimed democratic socialists naive and idealistic, or badly read and incoherent.


Democratic socialists aren't all bad. George Orwell is a great example.

George Orwell was an informer and propagandist for British capitalism. He neatly shows the worst aspects of 'democratic socialism'.

[motion denied]

Democratic socialists sometimes have interesting criticisms, despite they being fundamentally wrong.

What you described, OP, is a social-democrat.

[Remus Bleys]

The left right divide is bourgeois. Communists have "transcended" that spectrum: we are not on it.

[Comrade Jacob]

Left-wingers are good I think, just not left enough. I like people like George Galloway, Hugo Chavez & Dennis Skinner, they are only dem-socialists but are still comrades in my eyes.

[reb]

People on "the Left" tend to be completely adrift from the real world.

[E-Shock Executioner]

Democratic socialists sometimes have interesting criticisms, despite they being fundamentally wrong.

What you described, OP, is a social-democrat.

No no no, what I described was a democratic socialist

A social democrats wants a mixed ecomony, will allow managers and shit in factory's, and uses new-shit-that's-hated-by-conservatives as it's main base of operations

[Yuppie Grinder]

Democratic Socialism is a word American left-liberals use to describe themselves when they want to be edgy but aren't familiar with the term Social Democrat because it's not used often here.

[motion denied]

No no no, what I described was a democratic socialist

A social democrats wants a mixed ecomony, will allow managers and shit in factory's, and uses new-shit-that's-hated-by-conservatives as it's main base of operations

But "[those who] seek through democratic means to ban the private sector, put in a welfare state, ban all managers/CEOs in factory's." are not socialists in any way. DemSocialists that I know, seek to surpass capital through democracy (I'm looking at a certain read of Gramsci here).

[E-Shock Executioner]

But "[those who] seek through democratic means to ban the private sector, put in a welfare state, ban all managers/CEOs in factory's." are not socialists in any way. DemSocialists that I know, seek to surpass capital through democracy (I'm looking at a certain read of Gramsci here).

Scab, the kind of socialism your talking I revolutionary socialism.

Socialism means communinal ownership of the ecomony, through things like co-opts, state enterprises, self managed ecomony, all sorts.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Scab, the kind of socialism your talking I revolutionary socialism.

Socialism means communinal ownership of the ecomony, through things like co-opts, state enterprises, self managed ecomony, all sorts.

hmmmmm how about absolutely not

[E-Shock Executioner]

hmmmmm how about absolutely not

I am sorry.


But what the fuck can socialism possibly be then?

I mean if it has nothing to do with communal management of the ecomony then what it is it good sir?

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

Socialism, oddly enough, implies the socialization of the means of production under the control of the proletariat (not that complete socialization of the m. o. p. is possible otherwise, but try telling that to most "democratic socialists" - "socialists" who want a revolution without a revolution) - state enterprises can and do appear in bourgeois states, and co-ops are just a way for the proletariat to manage their own exploitation.

[Yuppie Grinder]

I am sorry.


But what the fuck can socialism possibly be then?

I mean if it has nothing to do with communal management of the ecomony then what it is it good sir?

the bolded things are what's not revolutionary
Co-opt businesses, even when non-for profit, are still governed by market forces and are largely a liberal yuppie privilege that reeks of snobbery. There are some exceptions to the horrible special snowflake richkid syndrome co-opts tend to have, such as worker run factories in post-68 France, but still these things do nothing to escape Capital.
Nationalization is not socialism because history has shown us that centralizing the MoP into the hands of a state does nothing to end generalized commodity production or worker exploitation. States like the Mao's PRC and Stalin's Russia are not fucked up socialism, they just aren't socialism in the revolutionary sense of the term at all.
I am for all things being held in common. I don't need the state to hold everything for me. Those are two entirely different things.

[ckaihatsu]

As you know, it's well known in the far-left that the central-left are utter bullshiter free market loving shitheads

Such as social democrats


Agreed.





But what about democratic socialists, the most adverdage ass of the Intire left wing

They seek through democratic means to ban the private sector, put in a welfare state, ban all managers/CEOs in factory's.


Right -- the key word there is 'through democratic means'. That belies an approach of parliamentarism, which is 100% fantastical.





Are they seen as merely doomed to fail with good ambitions/ or seen in the same light as social democrats?


Yes.


[3] Ideologies & Operations -- Fundamentals

http://s6.postimage.org/cpkm723u5/3_Ideologies_Operations_Fundamentals.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/cpkm723u5/)

[RedWaves]

There is no such thing as left wing in America.


There is right and then there is ultra right.


The Democrats of America are not "left wing" whatsoever. They do not support us. They are far too concerned about how the gays feel to even think about us. When it's not about that, they are too busy letting the ultra right wing screw with them and they bend over every single time and take it. They sold their souls a long long time ago for money and haven't looked back ever since.

Liberals are as reactionary as ever in America, sure they mean well but they don't get it. That's ultimately why I don't support the gay rights movement. It would be nice if we all were getting a slice of human rights, and not just one group, but that's how liberals do it in America. They might as well become nationalists because that's the idea of it, fighting for one group to get rights and then making a huge deal out of anyone that says anything bad about gays, when they could easily be fighting for all people to get human rights.

I have nothing against gays or anything and it's not about that, it's the joke that has turned into the movement and how they control it. Instead of fighting for one minority or one specific group to get rights, why not fight for everyone gaining equal rights? That's what I would rather see instead of hopping on the gay rights bandwagon of "equality" which gives them human rights but not everyone else.

It's like Lenin said, they are useful idiots. They are useful in the long term cause a few of them really do want to see Socialism rise and eventually Communism, but they are so reactionary and don't understand most things they are doing.


When it comes to the class war, the Democrats look the other way 99% of the time unless it's something about the gay crowd. It's the end of the fucking world if someone says something against gay rights, but meanwhile we can still treat the poor, women, black people, Latinos, and everything else like shit and it's just another day in 'Murica.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

There is no such thing as left wing in America.


There is right and then there is ultra right.


The Democrats of America are not "left wing" whatsoever. They do not support us. They are far too concerned about how the gays feel to even think about us. When it's not about that, they are too busy letting the ultra right wing screw with them and they bend over every single time and take it. They sold their souls a long long time ago for money and haven't looked back ever since.

Liberals are as reactionary as ever in America, sure they mean well but they don't get it. That's ultimately why I don't support the gay rights movement. It would be nice if we all were getting a slice of human rights, and not just one group, but that's how liberals do it in America. They might as well become nationalists because that's the idea of it, fighting for one group to get rights and then making a huge deal out of anyone that says anything bad about gays, when they could easily be fighting for all people to get human rights.

I have nothing against gays or anything and it's not about that, it's the joke that has turned into the movement and how they control it. Instead of fighting for one minority or one specific group to get rights, why not fight for everyone gaining equal rights? That's what I would rather see instead of hopping on the gay rights bandwagon of "equality" which gives them human rights but not everyone else.

It's like Lenin said, they are useful idiots. They are useful in the long term cause a few of them really do want to see Socialism rise and eventually Communism, but they are so reactionary and don't understand most things they are doing.


When it comes to the class war, the Democrats look the other way 99% of the time unless it's something about the gay crowd. It's the end of the fucking world if someone says something against gay rights, but meanwhile we can still treat the poor, women, black people, Latinos, and everything else like shit and it's just another day in 'Murica.

What do you think about 'the gays', please elaborate?

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

Hi.


That's ultimately why I don't support the gay rights movement.

Bye.

[Sinister Intents]

Hi.



Bye.

I've always been suspicious of RedWaves, bothers me what he said...

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

I mean, my post was probably borderline, but seriously, as I recall it homophobia (including a workerist "refusal to support gay rights") is grounds for katorga works a ban from the site. Based on the rhetoric - "'Murica", "against the cult of Ayn Rand", etc., I would say RedWavelets is a radical liberal rather than socialist. Perhaps he would find a kindred soul in old Tim Wohlforth if he's still politically active.

[Althusser]

You can't trust someone who will call him/herself a socialist, but not a communist. You just can't. There's always some liberal petty-bourgeois tendencies that hold them back from militant struggle.

[Catma]

I sometimes use the term "democratic socialism/communism" or say that communism must be "democratic" for it to work when talking to non-leftists. I do this to differentiate the goals of modern leftists (and past leftists, really) from the USSR and so on - state control of the means of production is not collective workers' control of the means of production.

I don't mean to imply parliamentarism, but rather that all workers must have input into the system, or at least the ability to cause change in it.

Have I been making a rhetorical mistake? (I am in the US, maybe these terms have different connotations elsewhere.)

[Regicollis]

Real existing social democrats? - The scum of the earth. Class traitors and hypocrites of the worst kind. Worse than conservatives and libertarians who at least have the decency to stand by their convictions. The social democrats will talk warmly about workers and ordinary people but will wage class warfare on behalf of the bourgeoisie whenever they get the chance.

Old-fashioned "real" social democrats who lacks the imagination to see the end of capitalism and who instead believe in a class compromise where workers get a welfare state to protect them from the worst abuses are another bunch of people. Their ideas of a capitalism with a human face might be naive and ahistorical but at least their intentions are good. They also deserve credit for the huge part they once played in making the lives of workers tolerable in some parts of the world.

Democratic socialists who wants to abolish capitalism through gradual reforms are by and large good decent people. Most of them are just afraid of the violent excesses that characterised past revolutions. While their ideas of socialism through gradual reforms are unrealistic they are fighting for the same cause as we are and in practical political work reformists and revolutionaries can make alliances a lot of the time.

[RedWaves]

I mean, my post was probably borderline, but seriously, as I recall it homophobia (including a workerist "refusal to support gay rights") is grounds for katorga works a ban from the site. Based on the rhetoric - "'Murica", "against the cult of Ayn Rand", etc., I would say RedWavelets is a radical liberal rather than socialist. Perhaps he would find a kindred soul in old Tim Wohlforth if he's still politically active.



This entire forum is full of armchair liberals that like to gang up and point the finger at you when they disagree with you.


You get pissed off that someone disagrees with you. Oh I had the nerve to be honest about how I feel the gay rights crowd is and look how worked up you people get. It makes me 'homophobic' oh God he said something about the gay rights, let's ban him! You all gang up on the little guy and spout this bullshit, "I've been worried about him, he's not right". Cause anyone who disagrees with you is wrong right?


For a forum that also declares itself Anti-Stalin, why do you have moderators and then start crying to ban me cause I said something you didn't like about "the gays".


It goes in one ear and out the other on this forum. You're pissed off cause I said something about 'the gays' and use terms like' Murica and even use the word retarded to describe Libertarians, then tell me what you do like? You want everyone to agree with you, cause here I am as the little guy just doing my thing; giving this forum my time of day to post, even if I don't add anything as nice as some of the other people, it becomes a problem when I disagree with something and give my reason to. All of a sudden it makes me a troll and I deserved to be banned, blah blah blah, I'm being homophobic cause I have the balls to admit why I don't support the Gay Rights parade and why it's reactionary. You assholes were "suspicious" of me, and it's OK to be mocked and treated like shit by you assholes, but the minute I say something you don't agree with, I'm "homophobic" I'm a "fascist".

The bottom line is, we're all oppressed. It's not just gays, it's not just women, it's not just minorities. That was the point I made, and somehow I'm being "homophobic" and a fascist (you guys sure love slinging that word around when you don't like someone) and all this other bullshit thrown at me cause I don't circle jerk around and kiss enough ass around this place. Oh and I have used the word retarded a couple times and people complain about that, cause fuck freedom of speech, let's worry about playing nice and trying not to offend everyone. Let's all hold hands and not be ourselves cause we might offend somebody, this is exactly the point I made about the gay rights crowd and how no one can even say a bad thing about them without getting harassed and treated like shit over it. It's a fact, the minute you critizie them; bingo you're the enemy. It's proof right here on a forum that calls itself a Communist forum and treats me like shit cause I'm not kissing ass and following along. You can easily critize anything and anyone, but the minute you raise your voice and give a reason why you disagree with the LGBT, that makes you "homophobic", oh please and this place is supposed to be Communist based? I don't see it. All I see is a bunch of arm chair liberals whining and *****ing about everything and what needs to be done, but no one wants to do anything about it.

I'm the bad guy for having a different opinion and not supporting gay rights, and hey that's fine with me. I don't support it and I have the balls to admit I don't support it. I don't believe one group should get the piece of human rights that we all should get. This forum misses the point entirely with the whole sucking up and acting as if these groups are the only ones oppressed, we are all oppressed and treated like shit, not just the gays, not just races, all of us.


I hope what I said really does bother you, I hope it bothers you so much you lose sleep over the fact that someone has a different opinion of you, and someone is willing to call you out on your bullshit, cause I see a lot of that on this forum. None of you believe in freedom of speech if you harass me over using words like retarded, or ***** then want to turn around and fucking ban me cause I'm not kissing ass and supporting the gay crowd. Then in the same breathe, there will be posts about how Marx was homophobic and how he didn't support gay rights either. Not all Communists support gay rights. Joesph Stalin wouldn't have put up with this shit either, and he didn't.

I truly believe the gay rights movement is bourgeoisie controlled and it's not "equality". It's a controlled debate where you have to agree with it, otherwise you're the enemy, and you people on this forum proved that right by calling for a ban cause I made you piss your little panties over my hateful mean words. Oh that Red Waves is so mean! You need to realize that we are in constant warfare everyday of our lives, and that you're dividing yourself more and more with this petty bullshit by supporting the petty bourgeoisie and one group getting their equal rights, but not the entire race of humanity itself gaining equal rights. But you people clearly don't want that. You fail to realize that we as a whole are oppressed. The gay rights movement has turned into a form of class warfare, and you prove it right away with the divide and conquer strategy by turning against one another the minute someone disagrees with the whole gay parade and then treat me like shit over it.

I fight for human rights, not one specific group getting their rights, and then to hell with the rest of us. That's why I don't support the gay rights parade and have the nerve to call you people out cause "OMG he said something about the gays! Let's ban him!". Most of you are not even real communists. You're mostly arm chair liberals that ***** and whine about everything and want to talk about change but don't want to do anything about it.

[Taters]

^holy fuck, dude. Nothing short of impressive how you have so many bad opinions in one rant. "the gays and their parades r hoardin all the rights"

Looks like someone needs an internet break.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Considering the political climate in America, I'd happily take some (actual) social democrats if they actually had any real chance of effecting some sort of change.

I know, that's cynical as all hell. But sadly we Americans have been living through a collective Stockholm Syndrome ever since the second Red Scare. The very concept of socialism is so alien and frightening to the average American, and I honestly wonder if a period of Social Democracy is necessary to allow Americans to get used to the idea.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

For a forum that also declares itself Anti-Stalin [...]

It doesn't.


Oh and I have used the word retarded a couple times and people complain about that, cause fuck freedom of speech [...]

Yeah, let's.


It's a fact, the minute you critizie them; bingo you're the enemy.

You are the enemy.


I'm the bad guy for having a different opinion and not supporting gay rights, and hey that's fine with me. I don't support it and I have the balls to admit I don't support it. I don't believe one group should get the piece of human rights that we all should get. This forum misses the point entirely with the whole sucking up and acting as if these groups are the only ones oppressed, we are all oppressed and treated like shit, not just the gays, not just races, all of us.

Cry us a river, straight boy.


None of you believe in freedom of speech [...]

We don't.


I fight for human rights, not one specific group getting their rights, and then to hell with the rest of us. That's why I don't support the gay rights parade and have the nerve to call you people out cause "OMG he said something about the gays! Let's ban him!". Most of you are not even real communists. You're mostly arm chair liberals that ***** and whine about everything and want to talk about change but don't want to do anything about it.

Follow your leader.

[o well this is ok I guess]

It's like Lenin said, they are useful idiots. And where did he say that

[ArisVelouxiotis]

We don't.

Wat?Are you serious or joking?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Wat?Are you serious or joking?

I'm not. Are you?

[Manic Impressive]

He's 100% right about this at least

"Instead of fighting for one minority or one specific group to get rights, why not fight for everyone gaining equal rights?"

Single issue politics will not bring about socialism.

http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2013/no-1301-january-2013/single-issues-versus-holistic-approach

[ckaihatsu]

The bottom line is, we're all oppressed. It's not just gays, it's not just women, it's not just minorities.




This forum misses the point entirely with the whole sucking up and acting as if these groups are the only ones oppressed, we are all oppressed and treated like shit, not just the gays, not just races, all of us.




You need to realize that we are in constant warfare everyday of our lives, and that you're dividing yourself more and more with this petty bullshit by supporting the petty bourgeoisie and one group getting their equal rights, but not the entire race of humanity itself gaining equal rights.


My take on all of this is that RW is teetering on the borderline of 'identity politics' (see graphic at post #19), as evidenced by the preoccupation solely with matters of civil society and nothing else.





The gay rights movement has turned into a form of class warfare, and you prove it right away with the divide and conquer strategy by turning against one another the minute someone disagrees with the whole gay parade and then treat me like shit over it.


Any and all struggles for civil rights are not comparable with *class* struggle, since the achievement of civil rights on any oppressed-identity basis still leaves overall bourgeois rule intact.


[1] History, Macro Micro -- Precision

http://s6.postimage.org/zbpxjshkd/1_History_Macro_Micro_Precision.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/zbpxjshkd/)

[Manic Impressive]

My take on all of this is that RW is teetering on the borderline of 'identity politics' (see graphic at post #19), as evidenced by the preoccupation solely with matters of civil society and nothing else.
Seems like the opposite to me. More like he's arguing against identity politics, but is being about as eloquent as Goebbels conducting a bar mitzvah.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

Workerists covering for bigots, how unexpected.


Seems like the opposite to me. More like he's arguing against identity politics, but is being about as eloquent as Goebbels conducting a bar mitzvah.

He's arguing against gay people. He said as much himself on his profile. Perhaps you need to stop worrying about "green jobs" and think about the socialist's role as a "tribune for all of the oppressed".

God, what muppets.

[Manic Impressive]

Workerists covering for bigots, how unexpected.



He's arguing against gay people. He said as much himself on his profile. Perhaps you need to stop worrying about "green jobs" and think about the socialist's role as a "tribune for all of the oppressed".

God, what muppets.
who the fuck are you? and what the fuck are you talking about?:confused:

[ArisVelouxiotis]

I'm not. Are you?

Who gives you the right to supress freedom of speech?

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

who the fuck are you?

I'm the god-damned Batman the user The Unknown Zero.


and what the fuck are you talking about?:confused:

Someone posted a long tirade about how they hate gay people but everyone's so mean to them when they say something homophobic, and lo and behold, along comes a sympathizer of a party that has never supported LGBT rights to denounce some "identity politics" bogeyman.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Who gives you the right to supress freedom of speech?

Communism. Liberal rights are folly.

[Manic Impressive]

Someone posted a long tirade about how they hate gay people but everyone's so mean to them when they say something homophobic, and lo and behold, along comes a sympathizer of a party that has never supported LGBT rights to denounce some "identity politics" bogeyman.
Ah so that's your beef, I'm not defending him. Does likening him to Goebbels sound like a defense to you? But don't confuse the fact that I don't let emotions and moral judgements cloud my observations with support for someone who certainly seems to have underlying prejudicial feelings or maybe he's just pissed off with liberals, or both, who knows.

When you are ready to have serious discussion about the ineffectiveness and ultimately harmful tactics of opportunism then let me know.

Probably best you cool off first though. Go take a walk. Have a cup of tea and relax. Then maybe you can have an intelligent conversation without flipping out.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

Ah so that's your beef, I'm not defending him. Does likening him to Goebbels sound like a defense to you? But don't confuse the fact that I don't let emotions and moral judgements cloud my observations with support for someone who certainly seems to have underlying prejudicial feelings or maybe he's just pissed off with liberals, or both, who knows.

When you are ready to have serious discussion about the ineffectiveness and ultimately harmful tactics of opportunism then let me know.

Probably best you cool off first though. Go take a walk. Have a cup of tea and relax. Then maybe you can have an intelligent conversation without flipping out.

It amazes me that someone would devote three entire paragraphs - short paragraphs but still - to completely ignoring the relevant political point. You didn't compare RedWaves to Goebbels, you compared his eloquence to an extremely obtuse situation involving Goebbels. Nor did anyone advocate opportunism or "identity politics" in this thread - unless of course you mean "anything other than screaming FULL FREE ACCESS SOCIALISM NOW at the electorate". It's rather telling that you don't even try to disprove the SPGB's homophobia.

As for the condescending tone, you can take it and do something very heterosexual with it.

[ArisVelouxiotis]

Communism. Liberal rights are folly.

I dont follow.You think that communism is fascist dictatorship?

[Sinister Intents]

Who gives you the right to supress freedom of speech?

Fuck free speech. Fascist scumbags don't deserve freedom of speech, they deserve ruthless violence. Free speech is a constructed concept, why do you believe in it?

[Manic Impressive]

It amazes me that someone would devote three entire paragraphs - short paragraphs but still - to completely ignoring the relevant political point. You didn't compare RedWaves to Goebbels, you compared his eloquence to an extremely obtuse situation involving Goebbels. Nor did anyone advocate opportunism or "identity politics" in this thread - unless of course you mean "anything other than screaming FULL FREE ACCESS SOCIALISM NOW at the electorate". It's rather telling that you don't even try to disprove the SPGB's homophobia.

As for the condescending tone, you can take it and do something very heterosexual with it.
I'm sorry you had a point? I didn't see one. Looked to me like you were raging like a petulant child who'd just spat their dummy out of their pram. I see your follow up post is exactly the same. Identity politics is an opportunistic tactic mainly used by Trotskyist parties since the 1960's. It is based upon the Bolshevik idea of appealing to other groups in order to form a larger party which they did prior to the 1917 revolution. It's how they built the RSDLP. In that instance when the tactic succeeded it failed because those people were not socialists. I'm not aware of any minor success it has had since then. In fact many find it extremely patronizing and invasive especially in the case of the SWP. So why, oh why do you keep on banging your heads against a brick wall in the hopes that an obviously flawed tactic might work. And please don't be naive enough to think that it's not a tactic. It may be a moral crusade for you. But for the leaders of your party (I'm pretty sure you're probably a Trot) it most certainly is not. SWP comments about the party being taken over by feminists stands testament to that.

Finally please tell me why you think Marx was wrong about only campaigning for socialism, regardless of whatever current constriction of capitalism you are fighting?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I dont follow.You think that communism is fascist dictatorship?

A fascist dictatorship is not fascist by virtue of suppressing free speech; it's fascist because it's ideology is fascism. We suppress free speech for anti-communists and the enemies of the revolution. The revolution does not hesitate to destroy anything that stands in the way of its success; the proletariat suppresses the free speech of the other classes until such a time as they are all abolished. To arbitrarily provide for liberal granted rights is to let things stand in the way of successful revolution.

[Sinister Intents]

I dont follow.You think that communism is fascist dictatorship?

Yes, we're going to strip you of all of your liberty and put you under a dictatorship that no image of Hell, nor dystopian nightmare could describe! :rolleyes:

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Fuck free speech. Fascist scumbags don't deserve freedom of speech, they deserve ruthless violence. Free speech is a constructed concept, why do you believe in it?

Indeed, the fascist deserves nothing but scorn and blunt objects. They are the enemies of humanity. Any person or group whose objective is the mass subjugation of humanity does not deserve the right to speak freely.

I believe in the right to free speech for the proletariat, the struggling workers. Those who seek to oppress humanit: the fascist, the theocrat, the racist, etc. and all those who oppose the freedom and emancipation of the workers should be opposed with all force. They do not deserve such a right, as they would use it to abuse their fellow man.

Freedom of opinion for workers? Yes. Freedom of ideas for the proletariat? Absolutely.

Freedom of speech for the oppressing classes? FUCK NO.

[E-Shock Executioner]

There is no such thing as left wing in America.


There is right and then there is ultra right.


The Democrats of America are not "left wing" whatsoever. They do not support us. They are far too concerned about how the gays feel to even think about us. When it's not about that, they are too busy letting the ultra right wing screw with them and they bend over every single time and take it. They sold their souls a long long time ago for money and haven't looked back ever since.

Liberals are as reactionary as ever in America, sure they mean well but they don't get it. That's ultimately why I don't support the gay rights movement. It would be nice if we all were getting a slice of human rights, and not just one group, but that's how liberals do it in America. They might as well become nationalists because that's the idea of it, fighting for one group to get rights and then making a huge deal out of anyone that says anything bad about gays, when they could easily be fighting for all people to get human rights.

I have nothing against gays or anything and it's not about that, it's the joke that has turned into the movement and how they control it. Instead of fighting for one minority or one specific group to get rights, why not fight for everyone gaining equal rights? That's what I would rather see instead of hopping on the gay rights bandwagon of "equality" which gives them human rights but not everyone else.

It's like Lenin said, they are useful idiots. They are useful in the long term cause a few of them really do want to see Socialism rise and eventually Communism, but they are so reactionary and don't understand most things they are doing.


When it comes to the class war, the Democrats look the other way 99% of the time unless it's something about the gay crowd. It's the end of the fucking world if someone says something against gay rights, but meanwhile we can still treat the poor, women, black people, Latinos, and everything else like shit and it's just another day in 'Murica.

The fuck

The democrat party aren't leftist, there called liberals for gods sakes

You know, the most adverdage ass of the Intire right wing.

[E-Shock Executioner]

It doesn't.



Yeah, let's.



You are the enemy.



Cry us a river, straight boy.



We don't.



Follow your leader.

"Cry us a river, straight boy"

Hmm, I wonder what this reminds me of?

"Cry us a river, jewboy"

I wonder why this two sentences seem so damn familiar

Maybe it's becuse zeros a Stalinist turdhead.

[Sinister Intents]

"Cry us a river, straight boy"

Hmm, I wonder what this reminds me of?

"Cry us a river, jewboy"

I wonder why this two sentences seem so damn familiar

Maybe it's becuse zeros a Stalinist turdhead.

I don't want to see a conflict between Stalinists and Trotskyists here.

[E-Shock Executioner]

I don't want to see a conflict between Stalinists and Trotskyists here.

We'll I just wanted a good old fashioned talk about the lesser ones but no

You anti-freedom of speech turdfucking Stalinist, with shit dripping out of your mouths, come in and start using every damn ounce of hatred and prejudice to take down legit guys like red waves

You know what, fuck EVERYSINGLE ONE OF YOU ANTI-FREEDOM OF SPEECH TURDS :mad:

I am fucking out of this forum.

[Sinister Intents]

We'll I just wanted a good old fashioned talk about the lesser ones but no

You anti-freedom of speech turdfucking Stalinist, with shit dripping out of your mouths, come in and start using every damn ounce of hatred and prejudice to take down legit guys like red waves

You know what, fuck EVERYSINGLE ONE OF YOU ANTI-FREEDOM OF SPEECH TURDS :mad:

I am fucking out of this forum.

Huh? Bye I guess?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

We'll I just wanted a good old fashioned talk about the lesser ones but no

You anti-freedom of speech turdfucking Stalinist, with shit dripping out of your mouths, come in and start using every damn ounce of hatred and prejudice to take down legit guys like red waves

You know what, fuck EVERYSINGLE ONE OF YOU ANTI-FREEDOM OF SPEECH TURDS :mad:

I am fucking out of this forum.

Good riddance. I somehow doubt you were even a Trotskyist.

[E-Shock Executioner]

Good riddance. I somehow doubt you were even a Trotskyist.

You know what,

Just to annoy you anti-freedom "if you don't agree with me then your a liberal spy counter revlionary" bullshiting.

I stay here till turds like you piss off my forum

[Sinister Intents]

You know what,

Just to annoy you anti-freedom "if you don't agree with me then your a liberal spy counter revlionary" bullshiting.

I stay here till turds like you piss off my forum

I'm against freedom of speech because of reasons stated above by myself and Takayuki.

If you're gonna be a troll then, fuck you, get the fuck out.

"I stay here till turds like you piss off my forum."
That doensn't even fucking make sense troll.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

You know what,

Just to annoy you anti-freedom "if you don't agree with me then your a liberal spy counter revlionary" bullshiting.

I stay here till turds like you piss off my forum

Ok. Have a nice stay. :wub:

[Ele'ill]

I think you should stay on the forum until you better understand what Takayuki is saying

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

"Cry us a river, straight boy"

Hmm, I wonder what this reminds me of?

"Cry us a river, jewboy"

I wonder why this two sentences seem so damn familiar

Maybe it's becuse zeros a Stalinist turdhead.

Oh look, more straight people crying because someone said mean things about their privileged asses. For the record - Trotskyist turdhead with major leftcom influences.

[E-Shock Executioner]

I'm against freedom of speech because of reasons stated above by myself and Takayuki.

If you're gonna be a troll then, fuck you, get the fuck out.

"I stay here till turds like you piss off my forum."
That doensn't even fucking make sense troll.

There you racist-and facist dickweeds go on again, "oh ur a trull" "oh u said fuck to Stalin, counter-revuilrionary!"

FUCK OFF MY FORUM FACIST :mad::mad::mad:

[E-Shock Executioner]

Oh look, more straight people crying because someone said mean things about their privileged asses. For the record - Trotskyist turdhead with major leftcom influences.

I am not even 100% straight you turd.

I have a interest in male buttsex, alright you fuckterd one ethic group over all asshole.

[Sinister Intents]

There you racist-and facist dickweeds go on again, "oh ur a trull" "oh u said fuck to Stalin, counter-revuilrionary!"

FUCK OFF MY FORUM FACIST :mad::mad::mad:

How the fuck have a said anything fucking racist you insignificant rotting carcass. Yeah we're such fascists, we're gonna take your rights are all belong to us! We're gonna give you Hell.

Fuck off moron. This isn't your forum.

[Sinister Intents]

I am not even 100% straight you turd.

I have a interest in male buttsex, alright you fuckterd one ethic group over all asshole.

You're not even fucking making sense! What fucking drugs have you taken? I'd like to get as mind numbinbly, beligerantly fucking high as you.

[Ele'ill]

Some folks need to step away from this thread and relax I think

[E-Shock Executioner]

How the fuck have a said anything fucking racist you insignificant rotting carcass. Yeah we're such fascists, we're gonna take your rights are all belong to us! We're gonna give you Hell.

Fuck off moron. This isn't your forum.

I ment thread, but of course you juche-douchists are sooooo innocent

I mean your wonderful SPECTALE of a state that's called North Korea is just so equality oriented

BOOM.

[Sinister Intents]

I ment thread, but of course you juche-douchists are sooooo innocent

I mean your wonderful SPECTALE of a state that's called North Korea is just so equality oriented

BOOM.

Lol, the Kimilsungism group isn't serious. I'm an anarchist communist FYI.

[E-Shock Executioner]

Some folks need to step away from this thread and relax I think

You know what.

That's exactly what I am going to do.

Thank you :)

[ArisVelouxiotis]

A fascist dictatorship is not fascist by virtue of suppressing free speech; it's fascist because it's ideology is fascism. We suppress free speech for anti-communists and the enemies of the revolution. The revolution does not hesitate to destroy anything that stands in the way of its success; the proletariat suppresses the free speech of the other classes until such a time as they are all abolished. To arbitrarily provide for liberal granted rights is to let things stand in the way of successful revolution.

I thought you were talking about all people not just anti-communists.And you said communism not during the dotp so you can understand my confusion.I stand corrected.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

I'm sorry you had a point? I didn't see one. Looked to me like you were raging like a petulant child who'd just spat their dummy out of their pram. I see your follow up post is exactly the same. Identity politics is an opportunistic tactic mainly used by Trotskyist parties since the 1960's. It is based upon the Bolshevik idea of appealing to other groups in order to form a larger party which they did prior to the 1917 revolution. It's how they built the RSDLP. In that instance when the tactic succeeded it failed because those people were not socialists. I'm not aware of any minor success it has had since then. In fact many find it extremely patronizing and invasive especially in the case of the SWP. So why, oh why do you keep on banging your heads against a brick wall in the hopes that an obviously flawed tactic might work. And please don't be naive enough to think that it's not a tactic. It may be a moral crusade for you. But for the leaders of your party (I'm pretty sure you're probably a Trot) it most certainly is not. SWP comments about the party being taken over by feminists stands testament to that.

Finally please tell me why you think Marx was wrong about only campaigning for socialism, regardless of whatever current constriction of capitalism you are fighting?

For the record, I wouldn't touch the British SWP (or the American one, for that matter, but that's neither here nor there) with a ten-foot pole if that pole had a condom at the end and I wasn't even holding the pole. The rest of your post, however, is garbage of the worst sort - and I would advise you to drop the condescending tone, you hypocritical, liberal homophobic shit.

"Identity politics" is a slur used by the "old left" (old in the sense of sclerotic and ossified) to bemoan the commitment of some newer socialist groups - pretend or real - to things like women's liberation, gay liberation etc. Of course the SPGB, who haven't updated their program since Hyndman died, pretend that women, gay people etc. don't exist - how could they do anything else? They need all the support from homophobes and misogynists they can get if they're to reach their mythical 50% + 1 vote.

Before WWI, RSDLP (Central Committee) was a fairly small party - during the war, of course, the developing revolutionary situation and the Bolsheviks' clear line on the war and the tasks of the proletariat led to their ranks swelling. Of course, the Bolsheviks stood for national liberation unlike the Mensheviks the SPGB idolzes, who wanted to preserve Great-Russian chauvinism under an Entente-allied bourgeois government.

And no one suggested that socialist parties should not fight for socialism - of course, to the SPGB, fighting for concrete reforms rather than shouting "FULL FREE ACCESS SOCIALISM NOW AFTER THE NEXT GENERAL ELECTION" means abandoning the fight for socialism, but that simply means the SPGB has a ridiculous notion of the class struggle. In fact, given the importance of the traditional family to the reproduction of the proletariat, smashing homophobia is very much a part of fighting capitalism. But I don't expect that a party whose "theory" consists of scripture-quoting and appeals to people who want "green jobs" would understand that.

Why isn't RedWaves' head on the chopping block yet? For that matter, why is a party that not only refuses to fight for things like free abortion on demand, reform of immigration, family etc. policy when it comes to LGBT people and so on, but directly attacks those who do, even allowed here?

[Remus Bleys]

You know what.

That's exactly what I am going to do.

Thank you :)

God damnit logical seal why don't you actually do it? What the fuck is the point of getting a sock if you are just going to riddle threads with nonsense about how you don't want to be here. If you didn't, don't get a sock.