Bill would prevent sexual-orientation changes efforts for minors

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Bill would prevent sexual-orientation changes efforts for minors (http://blogs.seattletimes.com/politicsnorthwest/2014/01/22/bill-would-prevent-sexual-orientation-changes-efforts-for-minors/)

If passed, this bill would ban so-called "conversion therapy" to "change" the sexual orientation of minors in Washington State. I hope it passes. Such pseudo-therapy is just another form of violence against LGB people, especially against vulnerable LGB youth.

[TheWannabeAnarchist]

It's outrageous--this bill should have been passed years ago. I said that my religion gave me the right to surgically attach a third arm to my kid's fucking head to symbolize the Holy Trinity, who would see that as my "parental right?" And yet trying to tear your kid's brain apart to suit your bigoted agenda is seen as a prerogrative!

[Sabot Cat]

But Danielle, voting for bourgeois politicians lends legitimacy to their regime, and it's all the same either way because neither major party liberates the proletariat and smashes capitalism. Why should we concern ourselves with the laws that they pass as if it affects anyone or anything important?

Seriously though: I hope this gets passed.

[Atsumari]

lol I am waiting for the "small government" dudes to start crying about how their liberty is being destroyed because they cannot control a kid's life.

Americans don't know what freedom of speech or liberty means anymore.

[Future]

lol I am waiting for the "small government" dudes to start crying about how their liberty is being destroyed because they cannot control a kid's life.

Americans don't know what freedom of speech or liberty means anymore.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Johann Goethe

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

But Danielle, voting for bourgeois politicians lends legitimacy to their regime, and it's all the same either way because neither major party liberates the proletariat and smashes capitalism. Why should we concern ourselves with the laws that they pass as if it affects anyone or anything important?

Seriously though: I hope this gets passed.

If you think voting for the Democrats will change anything, you're sorely mistaken.

Sure, this sort of "therapy" is homophobic and harmful, should be prohibited, and honestly, the "providers" and parents in question need to be treated like the miserable little Nazis they are. A genuine prohibition of this practice would be a positive reform.

However, without a strong, militant socialist movement fully committed to gay liberation, these reforms will be passed sporadically, if then, in a very mutilated form, and will be repealed as soon as possible. Just look at the "sliding scale of wages" in France. The bourgeoisie will not give you anything out of the kindness of its heart - you have to have your fingers around their throat. As for this bill - well, notice that it allows for "therapies that provide social support and identity exploration, including 'sexual orientation-neutral interventions to prevent or address unlawful conduct or unsafe sexual practices'". What does that even mean? To me it sounds like politico-speak for "we will allow this as long as the newspapers don't find out".

Voting for the Democrats will change nothing. Organizing in opposition to both Republicans and Democrats will.

[Sabot Cat]

If you think voting for the Democrats will change anything, you're sorely mistaken.

Sure, this sort of "therapy" is homophobic and harmful, should be prohibited, and honestly, the "providers" and parents in question need to be treated like the miserable little Nazis they are. A genuine prohibition of this practice would be a positive reform.

However, without a strong, militant socialist movement fully committed to gay liberation, these reforms will be passed sporadically, if then, in a very mutilated form, and will be repealed as soon as possible. Just look at the "sliding scale of wages" in France. The bourgeoisie will not give you anything out of the kindness of its heart - you have to have your fingers around their throat. As for this bill - well, notice that it allows for "therapies that provide social support and identity exploration, including 'sexual orientation-neutral interventions to prevent or address unlawful conduct or unsafe sexual practices'". What does that even mean? To me it sounds like politico-speak for "we will allow this as long as the newspapers don't find out".

Voting for the Democrats will change nothing. Organizing in opposition to both Republicans and Democrats will.

You're acting as though I can't participate in elections and organize against the bourgeois. Why can't I vote for the people who are better than their opposition so they can attain office whilst being committed to the goal of proletarian liberation? Especially if one party will make it harder to organize than the other one, while making people's lives worse than they would have been. I don't disagree that this bill isn't perfect and the U.S.'s center-right party is not a paragon of justice or whatnot, but I don't think it's completely pointless to vote.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

You're acting as though I can't participate in elections and organize against the bourgeois. Why can't I vote for the people who are better than their opposition so they can attain office whilst being committed to the goal of proletarian liberation? Especially if one party will make it harder to organize than the other one, while making people's lives worse than they would have been. I don't disagree that this bill isn't perfect and the U.S.'s center-right party is not a paragon of justice or whatnot, but I don't think it's completely pointless to vote.

No one said you shouldn't vote. What you do with your free time is not a political question. If you want to vote, or pray to the gods, or preform elaborate Hermetic rituals, knock yourself out - the end results will be the same in any case.

What is problematic are centrist, reformist "parties" that urge workers and the oppressed to vote for one of the candidates of the bourgeoisie, therefore spreading the illusion that the system can be fixed by parliamentary means, eroding working-class organization and militancy.

As for this sort of "lesser evil" thinking, well, how is Obomber's presidency working out for you? When he sold the women of DC for cheap political points, did you think "well, at least it wasn't Romney doing the same fucking thing"?

[Sabot Cat]

No one said you shouldn't vote. What you do with your free time is not a political question. If you want to vote, or pray to the gods, or preform elaborate Hermetic rituals, knock yourself out - the end results will be the same in any case.

Voting isn't as ineffectual as superstitious rites. In aggregate, votes have a substantive impact in the outcome of an election, and while these elected leaders are illegitimate, they have real power. Power to determine bills like these.


What is problematic are centrist, reformist "parties" that urge workers and the oppressed to vote for one of the candidates of the bourgeoisie, therefore spreading the illusion that the system can be fixed by parliamentary means, eroding working-class organization and militancy.


Wouldn't voting in reactionary parties that actively seek to destroy the foundations of revolutionary society be worse?


As for this sort of "lesser evil" thinking, well, how is Obomber's presidency working out for you?

Not as bad of a bourgeois ruler as Romney would have been, especially with a compliant Republican House.


When he sold the women of DC for cheap political points, did you think "well, at least it wasn't Romney doing the same fucking thing"?

I'm not sure what you're talking about here...? I don't really follow DC very much except to know the operations and policies being carried out there, of which there hasn't been very much of recently.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

What we really need is a bill like this on the federal level, and also banning parents from sending their children out of country to conversion camps.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

Voting isn't as ineffectual as superstitious rites. In aggregate, votes have a substantive impact in the outcome of an election, and while these elected leaders are illegitimate, they have real power. Power to determine bills like these.

M-hm. So, once again, how is that going for you? Democrats have dominated both national and state legislatures a number of times since their "progressive" turn. Yet the only time they - or the Republicans - have enacted any reform legislation was when their backs were blatantly against the wall, for example after the historic defeat of US imperialism in Vietnam.


Wouldn't voting in reactionary parties that actively seek to destroy the foundations of revolutionary society be worse?

What "revolutionary society"? In any case, once again, how were the presidencies of Nixon or Bush worse than the presidencies of Johnson or Clinton?


Not as bad of a bourgeois ruler as Romney would have been, especially with a compliant Republican House.

What has he done that Romney wouldn't have?


I'm not sure what you're talking about here...? I don't really follow DC very much except to know the operations and policies being carried out there, of which there hasn't been very much of recently.

Shortly after being elected, "change the reformists can believe in" Obama colluded with the Republican-dominated House to ban women in DC from using Medicaid funds for abortion.



What we really need is a bill like this on the federal level, and also banning parents from sending their children out of country to conversion camps.

That would be a positive change - although, as with all federal laws, its enforcement by the deeply homophobic state apparatus is an open question. But a joint militant gay - worker mobilization, against these clinics and against homophobic parents would be more effective.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

But a joint militant gay - worker mobilization, against these clinics and against homophobic parents would be more effective.
Yes, provided there were enough militant queers and militant workers to make an impact.

[Wonton Carter]

It disgusts me as a gay man that this was even a thing in the first place. I will honest-to-god never understand what makes people so full of hate that they have to do THIS.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

Yes, provided there were enough militant queers and militant workers to make an impact.

Well, that goes without saying. Of course, we can't expect to mobilize a significant number of people immediately - but I think model actions are important, both as a motivation and in order to prove the effectiveness of such action, especially in comparison to relying on the homophobic pigs.


It disgusts me as a gay man that this was even a thing in the first place. I will honest-to-god never understand what makes people so full of hate that they have to do THIS.

That's not even the worst thing that can happen to gay people, unfortunately. What disgusts me is that even with all that does happen, there are still "socialist" boneheads who think that gay rights are less important than some liberal crusade for "workers' hearts and minds", protection of an Eurocentric notion of "culture" etc. etc.