LGBT Friends in Russia

[WilliamGreen]

Last night I was watching some clips on the current protests in Russia regarding LGBT rights, etc.

I couldn't believe my eyes, girls where being punched in the face.

Cops where assisting in the brutalizing.

It was pretty much out of control madness. Is anyone on revleft in that region or involved in the LGBT rights campaign and can educate us on comradery type actions that we in other countries can do to help out those suffering?

Thanks! :)

[The Feral Underclass]

Things are really bad over there at the minute and they are only going to get worse. It's fucking bullshit and comrades in different parts of the world should be doing all they can to show solidarity.

But please remember that the word "girl" is used to infantilise women. If you're referring to female children, then it's fine, but I suspect that's not what you're doing. If you're referring to adult women, then the word 'girl' is not appropriate. Also, I don't understand why you made the distinction between women being punched and men being punched? Is there a difference? Please bear that in mind for the future.

[Jambo]

I have to say how shocked I've been ( although I know I shouldn't be) by the apparent explosion of anti- LGBT activity around the world so far this year. I know oppression and discrimination has been going on for a LONG time and most of it isn't reported but how can people appear so indifferent to what is going on in Russia, Nigeria, the Ugandan presidents sick comments and the rubbish recently spouted by that loony UKIP bloke here in the UK. A paper I read had an entire page dedicated to who the French president was sleeping with and about five lines hidden on a middle page covering the massive human rights injustice in Nigeria.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Yep, that's Russia, refuckingdiculous.

[fugazi]

this song !!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=an_1tpcnfgw

[A Psychological Symphony]

Things are really bad over there at the minute and they are only going to get worse. It's fucking bullshit and comrades in different parts of the world should be doing all they can to show solidarity.

But please remember that the word "girl" is used to infantilise women. If you're referring to female children, then it's fine, but I suspect that's not what you're doing. If you're referring to adult women, then the word 'girl' is not appropriate. Also, I don't understand why you made the distinction between women being punched and men being punched? Is there a difference? Please bear that in mind for the future.

are you serious? The word "Girl" is unacceptable when referring to females? Is the word "boy" unacceptable too? if so then that's ridiculous and if not then that's also ridiculous .

[WilliamGreen]

I'm glad I saw this while I was online.

I used the word girl because it was young woman kissing. It was not meant in a derogatory fashion.

Context is important :)

TAT is right that in some cases the word is used to infantilize women and demean their person hood. However that is an added "content" to the defined meaning of the word.

Many woman studies and feminist writers have written about the usage of the word "Woman" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Womyn

So let's remember where all friends here and trying to make a difference in left politics which is inclusive and progressive in thought. Or at least it should be :P.

So respect and power to our female comrades and to our LGBT friends who we should help in any way we can :)!

girl [gurl] Show IPA
noun
1.
a female child, from birth to full growth.
2.
a young, immature woman, especially formerly, an unmarried one.

[blake 3:17]

Let's keep the tone respectful. If we're talking about young women, then say young women. I would also see the discussion focused on actual struggles rather than semantics.

[blake 3:17]

The Brutal, Bloody Horror of Gay Life in Putin’s Russia

710
624
111
By Mark Joseph Stern

Ever since virulently homophobic Russian President Vladimir Putin pushed through a law effectively outlawing openly gay people, the country’s LGBTQ community has, predictably, been plagued by violence. Now a study published in Harvard University’s Health and Human Rights journal confirms what myriad horrific anecdotes suggest: Gay people in Russia are being beaten, raped, and murdered at record rates—and the government is doing little to stop it.

The issue of violence against gays in Russia is, of course, nothing new. Before the passage of the new federal measure, several regional governments passed identical laws, stripping gay citizens of legal rights and human dignity. More than one-half of Russian gays reported psychological abuse, while 16 percent experienced physical assault, and 7 percent were raped. Yet 77 percent also reported complete distrust of the police, leaving most anti-gay crimes unreported.

Putin’s law has only darkened this already bleak picture. By putting the government’s stamp of approval on rampant Russian homophobia, Putin effectively declared open season on gay people. As the Harvard study notes, violence against gays in Russia isn’t considered violence at all; rather, it’s thought of as a way for young males to prove their own heterosexuality—while simultaneously cleansing society of an aberrant, pedophilic community.

That’s the motivation behind groups like Occupy Pedophilia, which lure in gay teens through social media in order to publicly humiliate them by beating them with sex toys or forcing them to drink urine. The guerrilla group claims that its ultimate goal is to “cure” gay people of their orientation—echoing the Russian health minister’s statement that homosexuality is often a mental illness. Concerned by the violence, one Russian citizen sent 70 appeals to law enforcement agencies, asking them to investigate the attacks. Every request was refused.

full article: http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/2014/01/30/gay_russia_under_putin_brutal_bloody_and_horrifyin g.html

[blake 3:17]

Olympic Sponsors Were Warned About Sochi; Now McDonald's and Coca-Cola Are Having a PR Nightmare
Posted: 01/28/2014 12:06 pm
Follow
2014 Winter Olympics, Fast Food, International Olympic Committee, International Olympic Committee, Russia, #CheersToSochi, 2014 Olympics Winter Games, 2014 Winter Olympics, Coca-Cola Sochi, McDonald's Sochi, Michelangelo Signorile, Procter & Gamble, Procter & Gamble Sochi, Russia Gay Propaganda, Coca-Cola, Coke, Queer Nation, Russia Anti-Gay Law, Russia Anti-Gay Laws, Sochi, Sochi Games, Gay Voices News

Coca Cola
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802

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485
GET GAY VOICES NEWSLETTERS:
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Coca-Cola has been forced into the closet regarding its sponsorship of the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi. It has shut down an interactive feature that allowed people to put messages on Coke cans cheering the Olympic athletes. The scrapping of the feature comes days after LGBT activists hijacked the campaign, urging people around the globe to use the cans to highlight messages about Russian anti-gay brutality and what activists view as Coke's demonstration of its tacit lack of concern about Russia's anti-gay laws by sponsoring the games.

That happened a couple of days after Coke saw its iconic 1971 commercial featuring singers wanting "to buy the world a Coke" re-edited by Queer Nation NY, going viral, with images added showing Russian security officials and police brutally cracking down on LGBT protestors.

McDonald's, meanwhile, has surrendered a hashtag meant to cheer on American athletes, #CheerstoSochi, which was taken over by LGBT activists. It's been used by people around the world -- translated into Japanese, German, French and Russian -- to highlight Russia's repression and the McDonald's Corporation's sponsorship of the Sochi games. Ronald McDonald has been turned into an icon of hate, while Procter & Gamble is being accused of supporting a different kind of cleansing than its soaps and detergents advertise. And there is much, much more to come.

Olympic sponsors were warned. Last August the Human Rights Campaign urged the Olympic sponsors to take specific actions in light of Russia's "gay propaganda" law. The group listed actions the companies could take, including very clearly condemning Russia's anti-gay law, putting pressure on the International Olympic Committee, supporting the Russian LGBT community publicly and putting "marketing and creative advertising resources to use -- helping to build awareness and demonstrate support for LGBT equality in Russia and globally."

The companies did virtually nothing. And in The New York Times today both Coca-Cola and McDonald's responded to the ensuing PR nightmare by continuing to offer only tepid support for "human rights" while glaringly failing to slam Russia's anti-gay law.

What's clear from the companies' initial responses to the social media campaigns -- thinking they could fight off the activists, only to completely cave -- is that the sponsors had no idea what the consequences would be when HRC warned them. The first warning sign should have been last summer's launch by LGBT activists of the boycott of Stolichnaya vodka. People argued about the merits and whether or not Stoli was actually Russian, but that was all beside the point: The campaign went international, a shot across the bow, raising the issue of Russia's brutality dramatically.

Soon after, it became more widely known that Procter & Gamble, in addition to being an official Olympic sponsor, is the largest advertiser on Russian television. Then came the details of just how much the Olympic sponsors and the International Olympic Committee could have done to stop the Russian anti-gay law, passed last June after having worked its way up through provinces since as far back as 2006. In an interview last August, Mindy Worden of Human Rights Watch (HRW) told me how the companies had tracked the law from its inception, years ago, much the way that HRW had. They had ample time to put the pressure on Russia or simply get out:

This piece of legislation worked its way up through the legislative system. The International Olympic Committee, the United States Olympic Committee, the so-called top corporate sponsors -- Coca-Cola, McDonald's, Procter & Gamble -- these companies all, as [HRW] did, tracked the progress of this law. ... [I]f any of the Olympic stakeholders, the sponsors who are literally paying for the Games, or the International Olympic Committee, the U.S. Olympic Committee or the other Olympic committees, if they weighed in on this, I don't think this law would have been signed by Putin or passed by the Duma. If they had leaned on [Russia] before the law was signed, it would not have been signed. That is absolutely true.
LGBT people are not having it anymore. And apparently American multinational corporations had not realized that. They can offer their nondiscrimination policies, domestic partnership benefits and sponsorship of Pride events in the U.S. as evidence that they care about LGBT rights, but that's no longer enough. With the Winter Olympics in Sochi, LGBT activists are making it clear that American companies can no longer get away with tacitly supporting foreign regimes that are brutalizing LGBT people. The backlash against such companies is probably only just beginning and will last long after Sochi.

Update on January 28: The Coca-Cola Company released a statement today in response to the controversy surrounding its "Share A Coke" website. It reads in part:
"...The name and message auto-generator on our South Africa "Share A Coke" website would not accept the word "Gay", but did accept the word "Straight". This isn't how the program was supposed to work, and we've pulled the site down until we can fix the problem.
We apologize for this mistake. As one of the world's most inclusive brands, we value and celebrate diversity. We have long been a strong supporter of the LGBT community and have advocated for inclusion, equality and diversity through both our policies and practices."

Read the full statement here.

[blake 3:17]

Olympic Sponsors Were Warned About Sochi; Now McDonald's and Coca-Cola Are Having a PR Nightmare
Posted: 01/28/2014 12:06 pm
Follow
2014 Winter Olympics, Fast Food, International Olympic Committee, International Olympic Committee, Russia, #CheersToSochi, 2014 Olympics Winter Games, 2014 Winter Olympics, Coca-Cola Sochi, McDonald's Sochi, Michelangelo Signorile, Procter & Gamble, Procter & Gamble Sochi, Russia Gay Propaganda, Coca-Cola, Coke, Queer Nation, Russia Anti-Gay Law, Russia Anti-Gay Laws, Sochi, Sochi Games, Gay Voices News

Coca Cola
5,198
802

59
485
GET GAY VOICES NEWSLETTERS:
SUBSCRIBE
Coca-Cola has been forced into the closet regarding its sponsorship of the 2014 Winter Olympics in Sochi. It has shut down an interactive feature that allowed people to put messages on Coke cans cheering the Olympic athletes. The scrapping of the feature comes days after LGBT activists hijacked the campaign, urging people around the globe to use the cans to highlight messages about Russian anti-gay brutality and what activists view as Coke's demonstration of its tacit lack of concern about Russia's anti-gay laws by sponsoring the games.

That happened a couple of days after Coke saw its iconic 1971 commercial featuring singers wanting "to buy the world a Coke" re-edited by Queer Nation NY, going viral, with images added showing Russian security officials and police brutally cracking down on LGBT protestors.

McDonald's, meanwhile, has surrendered a hashtag meant to cheer on American athletes, #CheerstoSochi, which was taken over by LGBT activists. It's been used by people around the world -- translated into Japanese, German, French and Russian -- to highlight Russia's repression and the McDonald's Corporation's sponsorship of the Sochi games. Ronald McDonald has been turned into an icon of hate, while Procter & Gamble is being accused of supporting a different kind of cleansing than its soaps and detergents advertise. And there is much, much more to come.

Olympic sponsors were warned. Last August the Human Rights Campaign urged the Olympic sponsors to take specific actions in light of Russia's "gay propaganda" law. The group listed actions the companies could take, including very clearly condemning Russia's anti-gay law, putting pressure on the International Olympic Committee, supporting the Russian LGBT community publicly and putting "marketing and creative advertising resources to use -- helping to build awareness and demonstrate support for LGBT equality in Russia and globally."

The companies did virtually nothing. And in The New York Times today both Coca-Cola and McDonald's responded to the ensuing PR nightmare by continuing to offer only tepid support for "human rights" while glaringly failing to slam Russia's anti-gay law.

What's clear from the companies' initial responses to the social media campaigns -- thinking they could fight off the activists, only to completely cave -- is that the sponsors had no idea what the consequences would be when HRC warned them. The first warning sign should have been last summer's launch by LGBT activists of the boycott of Stolichnaya vodka. People argued about the merits and whether or not Stoli was actually Russian, but that was all beside the point: The campaign went international, a shot across the bow, raising the issue of Russia's brutality dramatically.

Soon after, it became more widely known that Procter & Gamble, in addition to being an official Olympic sponsor, is the largest advertiser on Russian television. Then came the details of just how much the Olympic sponsors and the International Olympic Committee could have done to stop the Russian anti-gay law, passed last June after having worked its way up through provinces since as far back as 2006. In an interview last August, Mindy Worden of Human Rights Watch (HRW) told me how the companies had tracked the law from its inception, years ago, much the way that HRW had. They had ample time to put the pressure on Russia or simply get out:

This piece of legislation worked its way up through the legislative system. The International Olympic Committee, the United States Olympic Committee, the so-called top corporate sponsors -- Coca-Cola, McDonald's, Procter & Gamble -- these companies all, as [HRW] did, tracked the progress of this law. ... [I]f any of the Olympic stakeholders, the sponsors who are literally paying for the Games, or the International Olympic Committee, the U.S. Olympic Committee or the other Olympic committees, if they weighed in on this, I don't think this law would have been signed by Putin or passed by the Duma. If they had leaned on [Russia] before the law was signed, it would not have been signed. That is absolutely true.
LGBT people are not having it anymore. And apparently American multinational corporations had not realized that. They can offer their nondiscrimination policies, domestic partnership benefits and sponsorship of Pride events in the U.S. as evidence that they care about LGBT rights, but that's no longer enough. With the Winter Olympics in Sochi, LGBT activists are making it clear that American companies can no longer get away with tacitly supporting foreign regimes that are brutalizing LGBT people. The backlash against such companies is probably only just beginning and will last long after Sochi.

Update on January 28: The Coca-Cola Company released a statement today in response to the controversy surrounding its "Share A Coke" website. It reads in part:
"...The name and message auto-generator on our South Africa "Share A Coke" website would not accept the word "Gay", but did accept the word "Straight". This isn't how the program was supposed to work, and we've pulled the site down until we can fix the problem.
We apologize for this mistake. As one of the world's most inclusive brands, we value and celebrate diversity. We have long been a strong supporter of the LGBT community and have advocated for inclusion, equality and diversity through both our policies and practices."

Read the full statement here.

[The Feral Underclass]

are you serious? The word "Girl" is unacceptable when referring to females?

Adult women aren't girls. It is a problem when men refer to adult women as children.

[WilliamGreen]

Thanks blake for those posts,

I think I will contact some of the LGBT groups in Russia to see how best we can help :)

[blake 3:17]

This video by Queer Nation NY is brilliant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g11nN5yee7U

[blake 3:17]

Russian LGBT Teen Supporters Accused of ‘Gay Propaganda’

MOSCOW, January 31 (RIA Novosti) – The creator of an online support group for Russian gay teenagers faces a fine of up to 100,000 rubles ($2,800) for “gay propaganda,” activists said Friday.
The case against Lena Klimova was opened at the request of Vitaly Milonov, an ultraconservative regional lawmaker who has spearheaded anti-gay legislation in Russia.
Milonov confirmed to RIA Novosti that he requested a check into the Children-404 pro-LGBT group on the Russian social networking site Vkontakte.
The group publishes personal statements by Russian gay teens on their struggle for acceptance and against homophobia in the country’s conservative provinces.
The group, created by Klimova, inveigles teens into questioning their sexuality, Milonov said.
“Without such groups, no kids like that would exist,” said Milonov, who has also campaigned against MTV, modern opers, abortion and the teaching of evolution in schools.
Klimova faces administrative charges in her native Nizhny Tagil, an industrial city in the Urals, she said on her own Vkontakte page.
Police charged her with violating a June law that prohibits “promotion of nontraditional sexual relations to minors,” she said, adding that the trial is expected within a month.
Nizhny Tagil police did not return calls for comment on Friday afternoon.
This is the fifth court case under the “gay propaganda” law, which has caused a furious backlash in the West and prompted some activists to demand a boycott of the Sochi Olympics, according to GayRussia.ru.
The most recent case, in the far eastern Khabarovsk Region, saw the editor-in-chief of a local newspaper fined 50,000 rubles ($1,400) earlier this week for reporting about a local geography teacher claiming to be mistreated for being gay.

The case marked the first time a Russian media outlet has been prosecuted under the “gay propaganda” law, which, Russian officials repeatedly claim, does not constitute discrimination against LGBT people.

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140131/187090159/Russian-LGBT-Teen-Supporters-Accused-of-Gay-Propaganda.html

[PhoenixAsh]

Adult women aren't girls. It is a problem when men refer to adult women as children.

The term girls as boys is used to refer to children between the ages 0 and adulthood and for young adults of either sex....which can be used as an insult but also as a term of endearment. It is also used to denote son or daughter. Or used as an expression between members of the same sex. Or used as an expression of camaraderie.

As said...these same definitions apply to both the term girl and boy.

The term however CAN be used as a slur or in a derogatory fashion. This is not always the case....and it isn't always a problem....and depends on intent and context as well as the interpretation of the person who it is used against and the inter relationship of the communicators.

Outside these parameters the term is probably used derogatory or to denote a subservient or lower social status in the eyes of the person who uses it. For a man to use it to a strange woman....would be extremely sexist given the context of the status of men and women in society.

edit: Ironically...I know some women who prefer to not be called women by me. They feel the term is not appropriate in close relationships and designates distance and exclusion (I am not making this shit up). Reversely they wouldn't think about calling me a man but use the term boy. Would a stranger call them girls...they would probably be insulted. Unless that person would be accompanied by somebody they know well...in which case it would be fine. Human interaction is complex.

[WilliamGreen]

The term girls as boys is used to refer to children between the ages 0 and adulthood and for young adults of either sex....which can be used as an insult but also as a term of endearment. It is also used to denote son or daughter. Or used as an expression between members of the same sex. Or used as an expression of camaraderie.

As said...these same definitions apply to both the term girl and boy.

The term however CAN be used as a slur or in a derogatory fashion. This is not always the case....and it isn't always a problem....and depends on intent and context as well as the interpretation of the person who it is used against and the inter relationship of the communicators.

Outside these parameters the term is probably used derogatory or to denote a subservient or lower social status in the eyes of the person who uses it. For a man to use it to a strange woman....would be extremely sexist given the context of the status of men and women in society.

edit: Ironically...I know some women who prefer to not be called women by me. They feel the term is not appropriate in close relationships and designates distance and exclusion (I am not making this shit up). Reversely they wouldn't think about calling me a man but use the term boy. Would a stranger call them girls...they would probably be insulted. Unless that person would be accompanied by somebody they know well...in which case it would be fine. Human interaction is complex.

Very well put :)

[Sea]

If you're referring to female children, then it's fine, but I suspect that's not what you're doing.To be honest actually I wouldn't be surprised if children were getting punched in the face too.
Let's keep the tone respectful. If we're talking about young women, then say young women. I would also see the discussion focused on actual struggles rather than semantics. Did you really just brush off degrading, sexist language as "semantics"?

[xxxxxx666666]

The term girls as boys is used to refer to children between the ages 0 and adulthood and for young adults of either sex....which can be used as an insult but also as a term of endearment. It is also used to denote son or daughter. Or used as an expression between members of the same sex. Or used as an expression of camaraderie.

As said...these same definitions apply to both the term girl and boy.

The term however CAN be used as a slur or in a derogatory fashion. This is not always the case....and it isn't always a problem....and depends on intent and context as well as the interpretation of the person who it is used against and the inter relationship of the communicators.

Outside these parameters the term is probably used derogatory or to denote a subservient or lower social status in the eyes of the person who uses it. For a man to use it to a strange woman....would be extremely sexist given the context of the status of men and women in society.

edit: Ironically...I know some women who prefer to not be called women by me. They feel the term is not appropriate in close relationships and designates distance and exclusion (I am not making this shit up). Reversely they wouldn't think about calling me a man but use the term boy. Would a stranger call them girls...they would probably be insulted. Unless that person would be accompanied by somebody they know well...in which case it would be fine. Human interaction is complex.

Interesting, I decided to start a "anti discrimination language" thread, which I've done so here:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/anti-discrimination-language-t186754/index.html?p=2716429#post2716429

Please post all the anti discrimination language knowledge everyone knows there: whether it deals with males, females, gays, bisexuals, transsexuals, and maybe some I may not know of.

Back to topic, I sincerely hope it gets better for LGBT people in Russia

Here some current situation from wikipedia if it is of help to anyone:



The age of consent currently stands at 16 since 2003, regardless of sexual orientation
Transsexuals and transgender people can change their legal gender after corresponding medical procedures since 1997.
Homosexuality was officially removed from the Russian list of mental illnesses in 1999 (after endorsement of ICD-10 ).
As far as adoptions of children: Single parents living within Russia, regardless of their sexual orientation, can adopt children. Russian children can be adopted by a single homosexual who lives in a foreign country provided that country does not recognize same-sex marriage. A couple can adopt children together, as a couple, only if they are a married heterosexual couple.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Russia

[consuming negativity]

The term girls as boys is used to refer to children between the ages 0 and adulthood and for young adults of either sex....which can be used as an insult but also as a term of endearment. It is also used to denote son or daughter. Or used as an expression between members of the same sex. Or used as an expression of camaraderie.

As said...these same definitions apply to both the term girl and boy.

The term however CAN be used as a slur or in a derogatory fashion. This is not always the case....and it isn't always a problem....and depends on intent and context as well as the interpretation of the person who it is used against and the inter relationship of the communicators.

Outside these parameters the term is probably used derogatory or to denote a subservient or lower social status in the eyes of the person who uses it. For a man to use it to a strange woman....would be extremely sexist given the context of the status of men and women in society.

edit: Ironically...I know some women who prefer to not be called women by me. They feel the term is not appropriate in close relationships and designates distance and exclusion (I am not making this shit up). Reversely they wouldn't think about calling me a man but use the term boy. Would a stranger call them girls...they would probably be insulted. Unless that person would be accompanied by somebody they know well...in which case it would be fine. Human interaction is complex.

I don't really disagree with anything you posted here but it really bothers me how quickly people ITT jumped on AT over this.

[E-Shock Executioner]

Quite essentially, there's only one thing comrades should be doing russia:

BLOWING THE FUCKING BRAINS OUT NAZIS/COPS.

It's what we should've been doing the minute this anti-LGBT movement arised.

[PhoenixAsh]

I don't really disagree with anything you posted here but it really bothers me how quickly people ITT jumped on AT over this.

Because it was his post that was second in the thread and consisted for 2/3 out of preaching lingo...regardless of whether he was right to do so...this kind of railroaded the direction of the thread.

He has a point...but (from what I read of him) he sometimes has a tendency to oversimplify/generalize towards political correctness on the basis of false presumptions. Plus the whole language thing usually hits a nerve here on the board.

[The Feral Underclass]

Because it was his post that was second in the thread and consisted for 2/3 out of preaching lingo...regardless of whether he was right to do so...this kind of railroaded the direction of the thread.

He has a point...but (from what I read of him) he sometimes has a tendency to oversimplify/generalize towards political correctness on the basis of false presumptions. Plus the whole language thing usually hits a nerve here on the board.


The fact that you interpreted my post as an exercise in preaching says more about your insecurities and projections than it does about anything else, especially since you agree with me.

Your verbiage about the words usage says nothing about the nature of patriarchal society or the need to moderate ourselves as people in positions of privilege when faced with the potential to reinforce patriarchy.

In that respect it's not I who is oversimplifying this. I'm not the one conveniently sidestepping the issue of structural oppression and presenting a common usage defence for using words that infantilise women. And if that's not what you're doing why are you wasting your time making that point?

There are other ways to use the word girl? Yeah, so?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WilliamGreen]

We have enough of a fight on our hands going up against neo-nazis, bigots, politicians, corporations, rich and power men/woman, armies, spy agencies, informants, etc.

I think we can lay off each other. It kinda comes off as highschool (ish).

[WilliamGreen]

From the militant stand point I wonder if there are any groups that are targeting those predator gangs that lure and or ambush LGBT people and assault and in some cases kill them.

Like EE said, sometimes you don't just let things play out. You have to put actions to words.

[The Feral Underclass]

We have enough of a fight on our hands going up against neo-nazis, bigots, politicians, corporations, rich and power men/woman, armies, spy agencies, informants, etc.

The implication of this being that there are no problematic attitudes, views and behaviour within the left, which is an incredibly naive belief to have...Or at the very least we shouldn't bother ourselves with dealing with them.


I think we can lay off each other. It kinda comes off as highschool (ish).


I don't think challenging behaviour that reinforces patriarchal oppression is "highschoolish."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[WilliamGreen]

Not all of your comments focused on those important issues TAT. You know as well as everyone that.

[A Psychological Symphony]

The implication of this being that there are no problematic attitudes, views and behaviour within the left, which is an incredibly naive belief to have...Or at the very least we shouldn't bother ourselves with dealing with them.




I don't think challenging behaviour that reinforces patriarchal oppression is "highschoolish."


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You are the righteous flame of feminism, I apologize. Oh, if only I had read my PC bible more closely I would've known the patriarchal oppression caused by referring to females as girls.

[WilliamGreen]

I think a big problem is native english speakers vs those in which it is a second language.

Sometimes we go to heavily by the dictionary and don't understand the cultural "content" that is attached to certain phrases and ways of wording things.

As people in a common cause hopefully we can all help educate each other in a good environment and better develop. :)

Additionally PhoenixAsh made an excellent point that it is complex. Sometimes as humans we get to narrow on something and realize that not all instances fit a certain paradigm.

:) Liberation and strength to all our comrades!

[blake 3:17]

This is a verbal warning to all. Do refer to women as women, not girls. Off topic posts will not be tolerated. An inability to follow these guidelines will result in infractions.

[WilliamGreen]

Well said, and hopefully soon I will hear back from some of the groups i've contacted and anyone that is interested in helping can maybe follow some of their ideas :)

[Luís Henrique]

Let's keep the tone respectful. If we're talking about young women, then say young women.

Is there a rule that we cannot use the word "girl" when referring to a young woman?


I would also see the discussion focused on actual struggles rather than semantics.

It is hard to focus on actual struggles when we have to be all the time worried about complying with unwritten rules.

Luís Henrique

[blake 3:17]

Luís Henrique infracted for not following the rules.

See post #30.

[Igor]

It is hard to focus on actual struggles when we have to be all the time worried about complying with unwritten rules.

Luís Henriquenah you dont to sweat about that but when you do get called out for something like that the decent thing to do tends to be just assuming their issues with it are real or at least much more real than your need to use a specific word

its actually much harder to focus on actual struggles if people wont be willing to change their ways in little things an react to calling out w a kneejerk contrary reaction as if it somehow challenged you on a personal level

people who 'pc police' (ugh) word choices are not trying to crucify you as a lesser revolutionary

[blake 3:17]

Igor infracted for not following the rules.

See post #30.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Adult women aren't girls. It is a problem when men refer to adult women as children.

I would add to this and say if we are saying boys and girls/girls and boys, fine. But if we're talking about adults and saying men and girls/girls and men, then that's a problem.

A kid in one of my classes (who is not usually noted for his pro-feminist points) made a fantastic point the other day which chimes with what TAT says: why do we say men and women or boys and girls, instead of women and men, or girls and boys?

It may seem like semantics and, indeed, it is qualitatively a different type of social oppression to someone being physically abused, but language is definitely a tool that is used to oppress social groups. Language is the basis of propaganda, and as such plays a pretty important role in not only the oppression of social groups, but also the exploitation of the working class through the great debt swindle and constant encouragement of the labouring classes to consume, consume, consume.

Having posted without seeing Blake's warning, i'll also add to the thread: we should be doing all we can to make sure that comrades and non-comrades alike over here recognise the seriousness of the abuse facing the LGBT community in Russia. That's the only way we can put pressure on the Russian state to stop its harassment of the LGBT community. We also have to recognise at the same time the problem of Russia being a fundamentally conservative society (historically, there can be blame laid at many doors for this), and that there is only so much that we ourselves can do outside of Russia; attitudes need to change inside Russian society to force the Russian state to adopt a more progressive social attitude. Further, the class make-up of society too needs to change to facilitate this. Currently, the Russian state is really rather powerful; it has been powerful enough in recent years that it has been able to pick fights with the richest, scabbiest members of the bourgeoisie as and when it pleases. Pretty frightening shit.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

It is hard to focus on actual struggles when we have to be all the time worried about complying with unwritten rules.

Luís Henrique

Have you not considered that this is, especially in the context of Russia, part of the real struggle though?

I'm fairly sure that, as I said above, language is a key component of the propaganda used against the LGBT community in Russia. A first step, before legislation was passed against the LGBT community. I'm sure I remember various reports of Russian lawmakers referring to the LGBT community in derogatory terms.

Whilst you may not view the use of 'girl' as that bad, you should consider that a woman might think differently, and that its use is just one step on the road towards anti-women propagandising and, ultimately, discrimination through the law.

[Sasha]

HRW published this vid today (huge trigger warning obviously);
zMTbFSJ_Tr4
in al the soshi and ngo whohaa and esp with all the "we are so much better than you" from world leaders from places where the same shit happens or used to happen only a few years ago its easy to forget but this ^ is why we should care about the anti-gay situation in russia
it sickens me to see "leftists" with too much anti-imp luggage pretend that this is a non-issue where only the pink dollar and imperialists care about.
this is pure fascist violence that thrives under the wings of the homphobic legislation and atmosphere whipped up by putin and the orthodox church and only on that base we should fight them tooth and nail.
first they came for.......

[Devrim]

A kid in one of my classes (who is not usually noted for his pro-feminist points) made a fantastic point the other day which chimes with what TAT says: why do we say men and women or boys and girls, instead of women and men, or girls and boys?

I think you are wrong on two points here. First in English we do say girls and boys. It doesn't sound unnatural to me at all. In fact it is what they used to say at the start of 'Listen with Mother'. I think your friend is correct with the phrase 'men and women' though.

Secondly what of it? They are cognative pairs. There are many if them which have no relationship to sexism at all. How do the phrases 'white-and-black TV' 'chips-and-fish' and 'fork-and-knife' sound to you? There is no logical reason for it rather than habit. In other languages some of these come up as more natural.

Also in English there are phrases where the feminine is used first. You would never say 'gentlemen and ladies' for example. Personally I also think that 'Mum and Dad' sounds much more natural than 'Dad and mum', but I am not sure of that.

Now you could construct a grand argument that explains each of these phrases on its individual peculiarities. Then again, you could have better things to do with your time, and accept that this is how we reefer to them and not draw any great significance from it.

Devrim

[blake 3:17]

Devrim infracted.

See post #30.

[The Feral Underclass]

I can't cope with watching those videos any more, it's all just getting to e too much for me to handle. Channel 4 are running a documentary tomorrow called Hunted, which basically charts the violence and lives of LGBT people in Russia. It's all so bleak, it breaks my heart. :crying:

[WilliamGreen]

Hopefully the left in Russia will stand up for the people. In time it will be shown as heroic.

Like TAT said, it's heart breaking to see.

[xxxxxx666666]

I wonder how the people in Russia could live with themselves when people of LGBT are going through such things?

As many have said it also breaks my heart and makes me sad.:crying:

[Atsumari]

One of the most common arguments against the acceptance of LGBT people is anti-imperialism. They persecute their gays to show that they will not be colonized by the Western powers. A damn shame that such an idea is abused in such a way =/

[Devrim]

This is a verbal warning to all. Do refer to women as women, not girls. Off topic posts will not be tolerated. An inability to follow these guidelines will result in infractions.

I don't refer to women as girls, and if I am off topic, then so is 'the boss'.

Devrim

[Alexios]

Devrim infracted.

See post #30.

Devrim is one of the only people on this site who makes valuable contributions and you feel it's your duty as moderator to reprimand him for something as insignificant as saying girl instead of woman? What about the countless users who go around making idiotic one-liners and dragging the quality of discussion down to a 5th grade level?

[Rurkel]

Don't we already have a thread about the validity of such language monitoring? Regardless of whether it was a good move to introduce such monitoring in this thread, bickering about it stuffles discussion of the rather important topic this thread is about.

[reb]

Devrim infracted.

See post #30.

Devrim's post was in reply to the boss' though.

[Raquin]

we should be doing all we can to make sure that comrades and non-comrades alike over here recognise the seriousness of the abuse facing the LGBT community in Russia. That's the only way we can put pressure on the Russian state to stop its harassment of the LGBT community.
I'm certain that a couple of dozen angry Western leftists on the internet is going to convince the government of the Russian Federation to adopt a pro-LGBT stance.

[blake 3:17]

In pictures: Being lesbian/gay in Yekaterinburg
The Globe and Mail
PublishedWednesday, Feb. 05 2014, 9:11 PM EST
Last updatedThursday, Feb. 06 2014, 2:04 AM EST


Correspondent Mark MacKinnon and photographer John Lehmann asked members of an LGBT support group to describe life in a single word. Here are some of their answers

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/olympics/in-pictures-being-lesbiangay-in-yekaterinburg/article16723203/

[WilliamGreen]

I'm certain that a couple of dozen angry Western leftists on the internet is going to convince the government of the Russian Federation to adopt a pro-LGBT stance.

Agreed

I think a lot of people over-estimate how powerful their opinion is.

Force and pressure. It can come in the form of violent operations or in simply shows of strengths in protests, etc.

But you have to have something visible and tangible to cause change.

It's the law of casuality ;)

[PhoenixAsh]

Hopefully the left in Russia will stand up for the people. In time it will be shown as heroic.

Like TAT said, it's heart breaking to see.

Since homosexuality was only decriminalized in 1993 after the fall of the USSR I hardly think we are going to see any substantial support from that corner. Maybe from Anarchist and Autonomous groups...but not from whatever communist is left in the communist groups. But the Communist Party itself voted in favor of the limitation of rights both on a federal and local level.

But it is going to get much much worse since Zhuravlev introduced a new bill in September which will allow the state to terminate parental rights for the LGBTQ community or for persons who are suspected of engaging in "homosexual behavior".

The rationale behind the law is that the anti propaganda laws should be expanded to include the family to protect the children and getting them away from the propaganda that is manifest in the lives of their parents.

As I understand it the proposal has been `watered down` a bit in the sense that it would `only` mean that after a divorce parental rights would automatically fall on the parent with the hetero sexual life style. But you can see the huge potential for even more abuse.

In 2004 and 2006 Zhukov argued anti gay laws much like the anti propaganda law passed last year could not be passed because they were in violation with the charter for human rights and in violation of the constitution. Arguing that in effect you can not criminalize propaganda for non criminal behaviour.
Zhukov is now on some olympic committee and doesn´t speak out against the laws any more. The question is then when homosexuality will again be criminalized.

To give you some very very worrying statistics. I believe there was a poll done some 24 years ago...of which the absolute majority of respondents were in favor of either executing gay people or exiling them in some isolated colony.





One of the most common arguments against the acceptance of LGBT people is anti-imperialism. They persecute their gays to show that they will not be colonized by the Western powers. A damn shame that such an idea is abused in such a way =/

This is ironic since there is some serious lobbying going on in the US and Europe by "human rights groups" (which is a euphemism for right wing conservative Christian traditionalist bigots) to support these laws...even at the level of the UN.
edit --> Spanish organisations and French seem to be vocalizing support too.



snip

When I read OP; I read and understood an underage woman was beaten. You however immediately assumed OP was talking about an adult woman.

You obviously associate the word girl with women. And I think this is an issue you need to address personally.

[blake 3:17]

Here's a link with addresses and phone and fax numbers of the Russian embassy and and consulates in the US: http://www.russianembassy.org/page/russian-consulates-in-the-u-s

Here's one to consulates and embassies in Europe: http://www.russianconsulates.com/countries.aspx?Type=3&RegionID=1


Let them know you disagree with their state's homophobic hate.

[Sam_b]

I ended up writing a bit of a rant about Sochi and the Western response to it for a blog over the weekend (http://athousandflowers.net/2014/02/09/sochi-2014-so-far-so-gay/), thought it might be appropriate to put in this thread.