Let's talk about Lincoln!

[BIXX]

So, I'm writing an essay for my history class regarding Abraham Lincoln. I was wondering if there were any good radical pieces about him that anyone knew about?

Also, I thought he'd just be an interesting character to discuss in general.

Thank you!

[ArisVelouxiotis]

I am not sure to whether it was his interest in abolishing slavery or just his ideology.But I think capitalism doesnt want slaves(in the literal meaning)since they cant buy anything.

[Comrade #138672]

I am not sure to whether it was his interest in abolishing slavery or just his ideology.I think his ideology reflected his class interest.


But I think capitalism doesnt want slaves(in the literal meaning)since they cant buy anything.I do not think this is true. Value can be realized in different ways.

I prefer the economical explanation on Wikipedia:


Economists have attempted to model the circumstances under which slavery (and variants such as serfdom) appear and disappear. One observation is that slavery becomes more desirable for landowners where land is abundant but labour is scarce, such that rent is depressed and paid workers can demand high wages. If the opposite holds true, then it becomes more costly for landowners to have guards for the slaves than to employ paid workers who can only demand low wages due to the amount of competition.

Also:

Slavery is more common when the labour done is relatively simple and thus easy to supervise, such as large-scale growing of a single crop. It is much more difficult and costly to check that slaves are doing their best and with good quality when they are doing complex tasks. Therefore, slavery was seen as the most efficient method of production for large-scale crops like sugar and cotton, whose output was based on economies of scale. This enabled a gang system of labor to be prominent on large plantations where field hands were monitored and worked with factory-like precision. Each work gang was based on an internal division of labor that not only assigned every member of the gang to a precise task but simultaneously made his or her performance dependent on the actions of the others. The hoe hands chopped out the weeds that surrounded the cotton plants as well as excessive sprouts. The plow gangs followed behind, stirring the soil near the rows of cotton plants and tossing it back around the plants. Thus, the gang system worked like an early version of the assembly line later to be found in factories.[233]
Critics since the 18th century have argued that slavery tends to retard technological advancement, since the focus is on increasing the number of slaves doing simple tasks rather than upgrading the efficiency of labour. Because of this, theoretical knowledge and learning in Greece—and later in Rome—was not applied to ease physical labour or improve manufacturing.Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery#Economics

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

There was a very interesting time, in the 20s and 30s, when the Communist Party USA tried to sell the idea of communism to Americans by appealing to the wisdom of various American historical figures. These included Thomas Paine, Andrew Jackson....

.....and yes, Abraham Lincoln.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Bw0wfgYdmqs/UUyp-YMbwNI/AAAAAAAA43g/8CRCPGZtV88/s1600/PHOTO%2B-%2BCHICAGO%2B-%2BCHICAGO%2BSTADIUM%2B-%2B20TH%2BANNIVERSARY%2BMEETING%2BOF%2BCOMMUNIST%2 BPARTY%2B-%2BEARL%2BBROWDER%2BSPEAKING%2B-%2BPARTY%2BFOUNDED%2BIN%2BCHICAGO%2B-%2B1939.jpg


That's a photograph taken of a Party convention in Chicago in the 30s. As you can see, between the portraits of Lenin and Stalin, is a gigantic bust of Abraham Lincoln.

[Queen Mab]

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1861/us-civil-war/

Some of Marx's writings about the US civil war.

What's interesting is that Lincoln was one of the centrist revolutionaries who actually vetoed the plans of the left-wing Radical Republicans to abolish slavery without compensation and institute root and branch reconstruction of the South.

[Jolly Red Giant]

In Dec 1862, two days after he signed the Emancipation Proclamation abolishing slavery, Lincoln signed an order for the execution of 39 Santee Sioux Indians (38 were actually executed) at the end of the Dakota War of 1862. It was the largest mass execution in US history.

Initially the intent was to execute 303 Sioux warriors engaged in the rebellion. Lincoln was concerned that the scale of such an execution would provoke European powers to enter the civil war on the side of the Confederacy. Lincoln offered a compromise to his political cronies in Minnesota that in return for 39 executions instead of 303, he promised to kill or drive out every Indian from Minnesota. He also promised a bribe of $2million in federal funds. The Santee Sioux were eventually imprisoned on Crow Creek Reservation in South Dakota in 1866.

As an aside - the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in areas where the Confederate rebellion was active. Slaves in Union controlled states were not freed. Secretary of State William Seward commented, "We show our sympathy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free."

[Alexios]

Yep, Lincoln was definitely not a communist or even a leftist by any reasonable measure. He was, when necessary, a cold, calculating, and often brutal statesman who was integral to the development of American nationalism (and thus relevant to the question of communism). But to analyze any statesman through a purely communist lens is idiotic, since just about every head of state in every major war in history, no matter what the government type, has resorted to despotic and brutal measures to win their wars.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Butch Lee talks a bit about Lincoln and his administration in Jailbreak Out Of History: The Rebiography of Harriet Tubman, here (http://kersplebedeb.com/posts/jailbreak/).

[Ele'ill]

Didn't he have a secret identity as a vampire hunter?

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I personally believe among other things that he fought vampires, was homo/bi-sexual, didn't care about black people, and was probably a douche. Though aesthetically I think he's incredibly perfect in a very spooky broken kind of way.

[Sixiang]

The most interesting portrait of Lincoln that I have ever read is Gore Vidal's book Lincoln. I'm yet to read it, but Eric Foner's The Fiery Trial: Abraham Lincoln and American Slavery, looks very promising to me. It won the Pulitzer Prize for history. Foner is takes a leftist approach to history and his father was a radical labor historian and activist who was active in supporting the Spanish Republic against the fascists in the 1930s and in labor and the black American rights movement.

[DasFapital]

Every Presidents Day weekend I get hammered to honor Abe's legacy. He was a truly humble war criminal.

[TheWannabeAnarchist]

I'm critical of Lincoln for numerous reasons. As was mentioned before, he did allow the execution of 38 Sioux Indians. Then again, he also pardoned hundreds of them, and only executed those who were believed to have raped women and committed other atrocities against white civilians. And he pardoned them in a context of tremendous pressure--the white outrage against the rebellion was so strong that had there been no executions, there was a good chance that a more private, bloody, and mob-based revenge would taken place.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_War_of_1862#Execution

I'm not trying to justify the mass execution. It was an atrocity. The treatment of the Dakota afterwards was even worse. I am saying we should consider the context.

And there is the fact that he was antislavery long before it was politically expedient for him.


"In 1841 you and I had together a tedious low-water trip, on a Steam Boat from Louisville to St. Louis. You may remember, as I well do, that from Louisville to the mouth of the Ohio there were, on board, ten or a dozen slaves, shackled together with irons. That sight was a continual torment to me; and I see something like it every time I touch the Ohio, or any other slave-border."(The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume IV, "Speech at New Haven, Connecticut" (March 6, 1860), p. 16.)

He was outraged by the Kansas-Nebraska Act, which allowed people in both territories to vote for or against allowing slavery because he saw it as a violation of the Missouri Compromise, which set a firm line above which the "peculiar institution" could never exist.

Near the end of his presidency, he began to even endorse voting rights for blacks. Historian Eugene H. Berwanger maintained that:

During his presidency, Lincoln took a reasoned course which helped the federal government both destroy slavery and advance the cause of black suffrage. For a man who had denied both reforms four years earlier, Lincoln's change in attitude was rapid and decisive. He was both open-minded and perceptive to the needs of his nation in a postwar era. Once committed to a principle, Lincoln moved toward it with steady, determined progress.At least twice as a young lawyer, he defended fugitive slaves from being taken back to their masters in the courthouse, according to Wikipedia.

But he also supported compensation for the former owners of slaves.

(Source: http://www.webcitation.org/66OKu6j1R)

IMHO, he was a politican, a bourgeois politician, and a pragmatic one at that. He was willing to back down on his beliefs in exchange for compromises. There are some admirable things about him, but honestly, JOHN BROWN FTW, THAT GUY'S WHERE IT'S REALLY AT!:laugh:

[IWantToLearn]

#1.) Lincoln cared nothing for enslaved blacks.

"If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."

------
Source: Gabor S. Boritt, "'And the War Came'? Abraham Lincoln and the Question of Individual Responsibility," Why the Civil War Came edited by Boritt (1996), pp 3-30.

#2.) Lincoln was a white supremacist.


"I am not now, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social or political equality of the white and black races. I am not now nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor of intermarriages with white people. There is a physical difference between the white and the black races which will forever forbid the two races living together on social or political equality. There must be a position of superior and inferior, and I am in favor of assigning the superior position to the white man."

-----
Source: Abraham Lincoln said this in a speech he delivered to the people of Charleston, Illinois in 1858.

#3.) Lincoln used black soldiers as cannon fodder.

"I thought that in your struggle for the Union, to whatever extent the negroes should cease helping the enemy, to that extent it weakened the enemy in his resistance to you. Do you think differently? I thought that whatever negroes can be got to do as soldiers, leaves just so much less for white soldiers to do, in saving the Union. Does it appear otherwise to you? But negroes, like other people, act upon motives. Why should they do any thing for us, if we will do nothing for them? If they stake their lives for us, they must be prompted by the strongest motive—even the promise of freedom. And the promise being made, must be kept."

-----
Source: Abraham Lincoln wrote this in a letter to James C. Conkling dated August 26, 1863.
I dont know if some quotes are cherry picked to make him sound bad but i think that the article is interesting overall.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

JOHN BROWN FTW, THAT GUY'S WHERE ITF'S REALLY AT!:laugh:

The man was a religious fanatic and probably insane....

But he was also the only man in the whole goddamn country who not only wanted slavery destroyed immediately, but was willing to take up arms to destroy the institution entirely. John Brown did NOT fuck around.

In my view he should be seen as the American version of Marat (only with less writing and more axe-swinging).

[Marshal of the People]

He was racist!


There is a natural disgust in the minds of nearly all white people to the idea of indiscriminate amalgamation of the white and black races ... A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation, but as an immediate separation is impossible, the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together. If white and black people never get together in Kansas, they will never mix blood in Kansas ...


In the language of Mr. Jefferson, uttered many years ago, "It is still in our power to direct the process of emancipation, and deportation, peaceably, and in such slow degrees, as that the evil will wear off insensibly; and in their places be, pari passu [on an equal basis], filled up by free white laborers."


I have no purpose directly or indirectly to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so, and I have no inclination to do so.


I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.


Our republican system was meant for a homogeneous people. As long as blacks continue to live with the whites they constitute a threat to the national life. Family life may also collapse and the increase of mixed breed bastards may some day challenge the supremacy of the white man.

[Sea]

There was a very interesting time, in the 20s and 30s, when the Communist Party USA tried to sell the idea of communism to Americans by appealing to the wisdom of various American historical figures. These included Thomas Paine, Andrew Jackson....

.....and yes, Abraham Lincoln.

[snip]


That's a photograph taken of a Party convention in Chicago in the 30s. As you can see, between the portraits of Lenin and Stalin, is a gigantic bust of Abraham Lincoln.Huh. Marx-Engels-Lenin-Lincoln-Stalin. With a combination like that, what can possibly go wrong?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Whoah, Lincoln was a sometimes-authoritarian bourgeois politician who made calculated political choices and may have believed some of the ignorance of his era. Shock. Horror.

As a note, Lincoln did hold some racist views, but then again Marx and Bakunin got caught saying some unflattering things about other races. Obviously quotes like that raise some questions about the uncritical cult of prior Presidents in the United States but it's not like you can really make interesting judgements on a person's place in history or quality of their thought based on a handful of cherry-picked quotes.

Crushing the Southern Aristocracy was a long time coming though. I'm glad someone did it. And evidently, a bunch of European leftists at the time (including Marx) were too.


Huh. Marx-Engels-Lenin-Lincoln-Stalin. With a combination like that, what can possibly go wrong?

Those "The South will rise again!" types would probably just use it to argue "see, we TOLD you that crazy dictator who didn't see that slaves wanted to be slaves was a Communist!"

[RedWaves]

Lincoln was an opportunist.

Most politicians today are opportunist, but he truly was one at heart.

He didn't believe in what he was doing, and only did it because he felt he had to.

He never said he truly wanted to free the slaves, and especially said several times that if he didn't have to free them, he wouldn't. The only reason he did it was to make the Union stronger. It was a business decision. I know Americans love to remind black people how nice he was to them by freeing them, but in reality he didn't do cause he liked them. He wanted to make the Union stronger, and it worked.

Lincoln wasn't the worst president ever, but he certainly wasn't one of the best to earn the pedestal he's put upon and the god status of him being this super awesome guy that can do no wrong.

[RedWaves]

Those "The South will rise again!" types would probably just use it to argue "see, we TOLD you that crazy dictator who didn't see that slaves wanted to be slaves was a Communist!"


The South is fascist in itself. I've lived down here my entire life, and if Fascism exists in America, it's down south. The slavery thing is just another means of property rights to them. But what they don't ever talk about is there were white slaves too only they were called indigent servants.

A small percent of people owned all the slaves in the south. What it all comes down to is class warfare. Even today, there's so much poverty in the southern states, and the people are so fucking dumb and ignorant they take every bait that is thrown at them to blame it among their fellow man instead of looking above at who really is kicking them around; the rich man.

It's because the South in all of it's fascist right wing figure, worships the rich. That's why when election time rolls through, all the poor people voted for Romney, and Bush (both times) in huge land slide numbers.

So many of them are still stuck up with this "The South was right" view on the civil war, there's no hope for them. All that is left from the old era is those attitudes and those attitudes are still going strong today. It's a fascist wasteland, and people down here know this. Look at the poverty numbers, education statistics, and other stats in the bible belt area.

[Bostana]

Didn't he imprison innocent citizens without trials or anything because he believed they were "southern spies"?

[RedWaves]

Didn't he imprison innocent citizens without trials or anything because he believed they were "southern spies"?


Nah, Only Obama would do that :laugh:

[ArisVelouxiotis]

The South is fascist in itself. I've lived down here my entire life, and if Fascism exists in America, it's down south. The slavery thing is just another means of property rights to them. But what they don't ever talk about is there were white slaves too only they were called indigent servants.

A small percent of people owned all the slaves in the south. What it all comes down to is class warfare. Even today, there's so much poverty in the southern states, and the people are so fucking dumb and ignorant they take every bait that is thrown at them to blame it among their fellow man instead of looking above at who really is kicking them around; the rich man.

It's because the South in all of it's fascist right wing figure, worships the rich. That's why when election time rolls through, all the poor people voted for Romney, and Bush (both times) in huge land slide numbers.

So many of them are still stuck up with this "The South was right" view on the civil war, there's no hope for them. All that is left from the old era is those attitudes and those attitudes are still going strong today. It's a fascist wasteland, and people down here know this. Look at the poverty numbers, education statistics, and other stats in the bible belt area.

Generalization.There is no reason why ALL the south is fascist.

[Taters]

The South is fascist in itself. I've lived down here my entire life, and if Fascism exists in America, it's down south. The slavery thing is just another means of property rights to them. But what they don't ever talk about is there were white slaves too only they were called indigent servants.


Flagrant misuse of the word fascism. Fascism does not equal racism.


A small percent of people owned all the slaves in the south. What it all comes down to is class warfare. Even today, there's so much poverty in the southern states, and the people are so fucking dumb and ignorant they take every bait that is thrown at them to blame it among their fellow man instead of looking above at who really is kicking them around; the rich man.

I'm sure this middle-class elitist attitude of yours is very endearing to others. Yes, those stupid and ignint southaners, they only need your guidance, o great RedWaves.


It's because the South in all of it's fascist right wing figure, worships the rich. That's why when election time rolls through, all the poor people voted for Romney, and Bush (both times) in huge land slide numbers.

And others voted for Obama (both times) and Al Gore, what's your point? Do others in more 'enlightened' parts of the country not 'worship the rich'?

[Hermes]

Nah, Only Obama would do that :laugh:

I think he did, actually.

He suspended the writ of habeas corpus, at least.

--

Lincoln, that is.

[tachosomoza]

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races – that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything.”




Lincoln was a racist who believed that blacks and natives were fundamentally inferior to whites and believed that blacks should be deported to Africa. John C. Fremont, William Lloyd Garrison, Thaddeus Stevens and John Brown were real egalitarians.

[Sea]

Lincoln was a racist who believed that blacks and natives were fundamentally inferior to whites and believed that blacks should be deported to Africa. John C. Fremont, William Lloyd Garrison, Thaddeus Stevens and John Brown were real egalitarians.As much as it feels all hip and edgy to be associated with him, John Brown was crazed.

[tachosomoza]

He was a fanatic and a revolutionary.

[Queen Mab]

As much as it feels all hip and edgy to be associated with him, John Brown was crazed.

Crazed how? John Brown was probably the greatest American in history. I don't think that's a particularly edgy opinion, unless opposition to slavery is considered edgy.

[tachosomoza]

Were the Haitians crazy for doing what John Brown wanted to do (and what I personally believe we should have done here)? Drowning slavery in a sea of righteous blood and anger?

[Sabot Cat]

As much as it feels all hip and edgy to be associated with him, John Brown was crazed.

Why? Because he organized and engaged in a revolutionary struggle against slavery?

He was the prototypical revolutionary leftist, and I have no idea why you would think ill of him if you have similar goals and means to achieve them.

[TheWannabeAnarchist]

As much as it feels all hip and edgy to be associated with him, John Brown was crazed.

Every person in history who ever achieved anything was crazed.

[Raquin]

In Dec 1862, two days after he signed the Emancipation Proclamation abolishing slavery, Lincoln signed an order for the execution of 39 Santee Sioux Indians (38 were actually executed) at the end of the Dakota War of 1862. It was the largest mass execution in US history.

Initially the intent was to execute 303 Sioux warriors engaged in the rebellion. Lincoln was concerned that the scale of such an execution would provoke European powers to enter the civil war on the side of the Confederacy. Lincoln offered a compromise to his political cronies in Minnesota that in return for 39 executions instead of 303, he promised to kill or drive out every Indian from Minnesota. He also promised a bribe of $2million in federal funds. The Santee Sioux were eventually imprisoned on Crow Creek Reservation in South Dakota in 1866.

As an aside - the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in areas where the Confederate rebellion was active. Slaves in Union controlled states were not freed. Secretary of State William Seward commented, "We show our sympathy with slavery by emancipating slaves where we cannot reach them and holding them in bondage where we can set them free."
Those 38 men were executed for participating in the slaughter of almost a thousand American civilians. They were, in other words, war criminals.


Lincoln was a racist who believed that blacks and natives were fundamentally inferior to whites and believed that blacks should be deported to Africa. John C. Fremont, William Lloyd Garrison, Thaddeus Stevens and John Brown were real egalitarians.
Recolonization of Africa by Afro-Americans has been a cornerstone of abolitionist thought in the US since the inception of the abolitionist movement itself and it didn't end with the abolition of slavery either, the torch was then carried on by some of the most prominent black civil rights activists:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Colonization_Society
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Star_Line
etc

[TheWannabeAnarchist]

Consider this: maybe Lincoln wanted to deport blacks to Africa because he knew how they'd be treated for the next 100+ years. Maybe he thought that by having them form their own, separate societies, they'd be able to live safer, fuller lives.

That kind of thinking is flawed, but it's not malicious.

We also need to be careful about using Lincoln's quotes to try to understand his motives. Lincoln was a opportunistic politician. When speaking to audiences, he'd usually just say whatever his listeners wanted to hear. According to Howard Zinn:


In his 1858 campaign in Illinois for the Senate against Stephen Douglas, Lincoln spoke differently depending on the views of his listeners (and also perhaps depending on how close it was to the election). Speaking in northern Illinois in July (in Chicago), he said:

Let us discard all this quibbling about this man and the other man, this race and that race and the other race being inferior, and therefore they must be placed in an inferior position. Let us discard all these things, and unite as one people throughout this land, until we shall once more stand up declaring that all men are created equal.

Two months later in Charleston, in southern Illinois, Lincoln told his audience:

I will say, then, that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races (applause); that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people.. . .

And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

We should also note that before he supported immediate emancipation, he did support "containment" of all slavery in the states where it was allowed, and not allowing it to expand one inch further. He was totally uncompromising on this. He also claimed, numerous times, that by "quarantining" slavery, it would wither away.

He didn't go far enough. I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that he was not as bad as some of us are making him out to be--and his motive was not solely to get elected.

If you ask me though, he was a jackass about the draft. He allowed anyone wealthy enough to just buy their way out of military, like a less subtle Vietnam. That lead to violent, murderous rioting in NYC.

[Bala Perdida]

Interesting to read this and see no mention of how Abraham Lincoln was a capitalist lawyer for the bourgeoisie. I mean, I may be throwing around the word "capitalist" but he was definitely looking to make a profit. He was notorious for defending the Illinois central railroad company, and he was also very pro-business eventually going on to help industries as a president. There's more about it in this article: http://www.pantagraph.com/news/lincoln-was-a-well-paid-corporate-lawyer-in-his-hey/article_82797c0f-f6ff-5ba2-8a57-df9706f91715.html.

Also, I'm not sure what the opinion in this community is on Cracked.com, but I usually frequent the site for fun facts and such. Cracked isn't very friendly to radical views such as ours, but they're not brought up often and are defended to an extent in the comments section (I know it's bad to view them, but I can't resist). Anyway, they uploaded an article yesterday that sums the ""capitalist Lincoln lawyer" in a nice short section: http://www.cracked.com/article_20777_5-famous-pieces-presidential-trivia-that-are-total-bs.html