Programmer privilege; an asian male's experiences with privilege

[Sasha]

Silent Technical Privilege

As a novice computer programmer, I always got the benefit of the doubt—because I looked the part.

By Philip Guo

Photo courtesy Philip Guo

I started programming when I was 5, first with Logo and then BASIC. The picture above is me, age 9 (with horrible posture). By the time this photo was taken, I had already written several BASIC games that I distributed as shareware on our local BBS. I was fast growing bored, so my parents (both software engineers) gave me the original dragon compiler textbook from their grad school days. That's when I started learning C and writing my own simple interpreters and compilers. My early interpreters were for BASIC, but by the time I entered high school I had already created a self-hosting compiler for a nontrivial subset of C. Throughout most of high school, I spent weekends coding in x86 assembly, obsessed with hand-tuning code for the newly released Pentium II chips. When I started my freshman year at MIT as a computer science major, I already had over 10 years of programming experience. So I felt right at home there.

OK, all of the above was a lie. With one exception: That is me in the photo. When it was taken, I didn't even know how to touch-type. My parents were just like, “Quick, pose in front of our new computer!” (Look closely. My fingers aren't even in the right position.) My parents were both humanities majors, and there wasn't a single programming book in my house. In sixth grade I tried teaching myself BASIC for a few weeks, but quit because it was too hard. The only real exposure I had to programming prior to college was taking AP computer science in 11th grade, taught by a math teacher who had learned the material only a month before class started. Despite its shortcomings, that class inspired me to major in computer science in college. But when I started freshman year at MIT, I felt a bit anxious because many of my classmates actually did have over 10 years of childhood programming experience; I had less than one.

Even though I didn't grow up in a tech-savvy household and couldn't code my way out of a paper bag, I had one big thing going for me: I looked like I was good at programming. Here's me during freshman year of college:


As an Asian male student at MIT, I fit society's image of a young programmer. Thus, throughout college, nobody ever said to me (as they said to some other CS students I knew):

“Well, you only got into MIT because you're an Asian boy.”
(while struggling with a problem set) “Well, not everyone is cut out for computer science; have you considered majoring in bio?”
(after being assigned to a class project team) “How about you just design the graphics while we handle the backend? It'll be easier for everyone that way.”
“Are you sure you know how to do this?”
Although I started off as a complete novice (like everyone once was), I never faced any micro-inequities that impeded my intellectual growth. Throughout college and grad school, I gradually learned more and more via classes, research, and internships, incrementally taking on harder and harder projects, and getting better and better at programming while falling deeper and deeper in love with it. Instead of doing my 10 years of deliberate practice from ages 8 to 18, I did mine from ages 18 to 28. And nobody ever got in the way of my learning—not even inadvertently—probably because I looked like the sort of person who would be good at such things. (The software engineer Tess Rinearson writes about this dynamic from a different perspective in her essay “On Technical Entitlement.”)

Instead of facing implicit bias or stereotype threat, I had the privilege of implicit endorsement. For instance, whenever I attended technical meetings, people would assume that I knew what I was doing (regardless of whether I did or not) and treat me accordingly. If I stared at someone in silence and nodded as they were talking, they would assume that I understood, not that I was clueless. Nobody ever talked down to me, and I always got the benefit of the doubt in technical settings.

As a result, I was able to fake it till I made it, often landing jobs whose postings required skills I hadn't yet learned but knew that I could pick up on the spot. Most of my interviews for research assistantships and summer internships were quite casual—people just gave me the chance to try. And after enough rounds of practice, I actually did start knowing what I was doing. As I gained experience, I was able to land more meaningful programming jobs, which led to a virtuous cycle of further improvement.

For every white or Asian male expert programmer you know, imagine a parallel universe where they were of another ethnicity and/or gender.
This kind of privilege that I and other people who looked like me possessed was silent, manifested not in what people said to us, but rather in what they didn't say. We had the privilege to spend enormous amounts of time developing technical expertise without anyone's interference or implicit discouragement. Sure, we worked really hard, but our efforts directly translated into skill improvements without much loss due to interpersonal friction. Because we looked the part.

In contrast, ask any computer science major who isn't from a majority demographic (i.e., white or Asian male), and I guarantee that he or she has encountered discouraging comments such as “You know, not everyone is cut out for computer science.” They probably still remember the words and actions that have hurt the most, even though those making the remarks often aren't trying to harm.

For example, one of my good friends took the Intro to Java course during freshman year and enjoyed it. She wanted to get better at Java GUI programming, so she got a summer research assistantship at the MIT Media Lab. However, instead of letting her build the GUI (like the job ad described), the supervisor assigned her the mind-numbing task of hand-transcribing audio clips all summer long. He assigned a new male student to build the GUI application. And it wasn't like that student was a programming prodigy—he was also a freshman with the same amount of (limited) experience that she had. The other student spent the summer getting better at GUI programming while she just grinded away mindlessly transcribing audio. As a result, she grew resentful and shied away from learning more CS.

Thinking about this story always angers me. Here was someone with a natural interest who took the initiative to learn more and was denied the opportunity to do so. I have no doubt that my friend could have gotten good at programming—and really enjoyed it—if she had the same opportunities as I did. (It didn’t help that when she was accepted to MIT, her aunt—whose son had been rejected—congratulated her by saying, “Well, you only got into MIT because you're a girl.”)

Over a decade later, she now does some programming at her research job, but wishes that she had learned more back in college. However, she had such a negative association with everything CS-related that it was hard to motivate herself to do so for fear of being shot down again.

One trite retort is “Well, your friend should've been tougher and not given up so easily. If she wanted it badly enough, she should've tried again, even knowing that she might face resistance.” These sorts of remarks aggravate me. Writing code for a living isn't like being a Navy SEAL sharpshooter. Programming is seriously not that demanding, so you shouldn't need to be a tough-as-nails superhero to enter this profession.

Just look at this photo of me from a software engineering summer internship:


Even though I was hacking on a hardware simulator in C++, which sounds mildly hard-core, I was actually pretty squishy, chillin' in my cubicle and often taking extended lunch breaks. All of the guys around me (yes, the programmers were all men, with the exception of one older woman who didn't hang out with us) were also fairly squishy. These guys made a fine living and were good at what they did; but they weren't superheroes. The most hardship that one of the guys faced all summer was staying up late playing Doom 3 and then rolling into the office dead-tired the next morning. Anyone with enough practice and motivation could have done our jobs, and most other programming and CS-related jobs as well. Seriously, companies aren't looking to hire the next Steve Wozniak—they just want to ship code that works.

It frustrates me that people not in the majority demographic often need to be tough as nails to succeed in this field, constantly bearing the lasting effects of thousands of micro-inequities. Psychology Today notes that according to one researcher, Mary Rowe:

[M]icro-inequities often had serious cumulative, harmful effects, resulting in hostile work environments and continued minority discrimination in public and private workplaces and organizations. What makes micro-inequities particularly problematic is that they consist in micro-messages that are hard to recognize for victims, bystanders and perpetrators alike. When victims of micro-inequities do recognize the micro-messages … it is exceedingly hard to explain to others why these small behaviors can be a huge problem.
In contrast, people who look like me can just kinda do programming for work if we want, or not do it, or switch into it later, or out of it again, or work quietly, or nerd-rant on how Ruby sucks or rocks or whatever, or name-drop monads. And nobody will make remarks about our appearance, about whether we're truly dedicated hackers, or how our behavior might reflect badly on “our kind” of people. That's silent technical privilege.

Ideally, we want to spur interest in young people from underrepresented demographics who might never otherwise think to pursue CS or STEM studies. There are great people and organizations working toward this goal. Although I think that increased and broader participation is critical, a more immediate concern is reducing attrition of those already in the field. For instance, according to a 2012 STEM education report to the president:

[E]conomic forecasts point to a need for producing, over the next decade, approximately 1 million more college graduates in STEM fields than expected under current assumptions. Fewer than 40% of students who enter college intending to major in a STEM field complete a STEM degree. Merely increasing the retention of STEM majors from 40% to 50% would generate three quarters of the targeted 1 million additional STEM degrees over the next decade.
That's why I plan to start by taking steps to encourage and retain those who already want to learn. So here's a thought experiment: For every white or Asian male expert programmer you know, imagine a parallel universe where they were of another ethnicity and/or gender but had the exact same initial interest and aptitude levels. Would they still have been willing to devote the 10,000-plus hours of deliberate practice to achieve mastery in the face of dozens or hundreds of instances of implicit discouragement they would inevitably encounter over the years? Sure, some super-resilient outliers would, but many wouldn't. Many of us would quit, even though we had the potential and interest to thrive in this field.

I hope to live in a future where people who already have the interest to pursue CS or programming don't self-select themselves out of the field. I want those people to experience what I was privileged enough to have gotten in college and beyond: unimpeded opportunities to develop expertise in something that they find beautiful, practical, and fulfilling.

This piece is adapted from Guo’s blog.

Philip Guo is an assistant professor of computer science at the University of Rochester. Follow him on Twitter.

source: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2014/01/programmer_privilege_as_an_asian_male_computer_sci ence_major_everyone_gave.single.html

[the debater]

source: http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/technology/2014/01/programmer_privilege_as_an_asian_male_computer_sci ence_major_everyone_gave.single.html

A major problem for me specifically has been dealing with professors who sometimes don't do a good job of communicating. Unfortunately, people are still going to view intelligence and creativity and personality and other such traits as primarily genetic as long as the Colorado Adoption Project continues to languish in obscurity, while twin studies get all the attention. :(

Of course, at the same time, we as a society need to step up and speak out against corrupt pop cultural influences that steer youth away from academia and towards idiocy.



This comment directly below is a must read for everybody! Enlighten yourself:


Isaiah Horbert
September 11, 2011 at 10:08 PM
There is probably something environmentally happening with blacks as they age that is decreasing the IQ. I’m black and I tend to score from about 125-135 on IQ test, 24/30 on Mensa workout (if that means anything) and I actually do things with my life that confirm this score like being the best student in my college level Calculus class, even though Calc is stupid easy and having around a 3.8 at the end of my first year of college, if that means anything. I’m majoring in the hard sciences btw and I’m usually one of the best in my classes. Now a weird environmental thing actually happened with me…I saw myself as white rather than black all my life. I’m dark skinned so this probably sounds weird. As far as the hereditarian idea goes I live with really really stupid parents that fail at everything and are absolutely incompetent…but I don’t see them as my parents…odd but true. I feel like people, blacks, are simply regressing towards the mean black IQ for social reasons rather than genetic reasons. Also, I don’t have any evidence that I was testing higher at any other ages and I was a terrible student in elementary school and middle school. It wasn’t until I decided to do well and study that I improved my grades and stuff…of course grades might not have necessarily been correlated with my intelligence even if I had bad ones. Though I do remember in third grade that I had a difficult time learning long division…if that means anything. Hmm…I doubt that this has much to do with genetics considering that similar IQ’s are seen in countries other than black ones and amongst homogenous ethnic groups. I kinda see blacks as a caste group in America and that could be diminishing their intelligence; if you do some research you’ll find that the lowest members of caste have diminished intelligence but that shifts when they immigrate somewhere else. And immigrants from underdeveloped countries tend to have lower IQ’s…I read something Thomas Sowell wrote about the Irish and Italians having low IQ’s when they came to America, considering their behavior here I wouldn’t doubt it. Furthermore, I’ve always wondered why people focus on the black IQ versus the Indian IQ or the Latino IQ or the Nepalese IQ or Burakumin IQ…I’ve always imagined that people cared so much because it fit in with what folks were already thinking or wanted to think while blacks were slaves, and it fits in with people’s view of Africa as wild and primitive lol…people actually think like this so it’s really funny to me. It would be interesting if blacks turned out to actually have a higher IQ than whites in the end. Then I’m sure racist blacks will argue that Neanderthal DNA in whites explains the differences between whites and blacks and then all this nonsense will continue…oh well :)


Here is a black guy who became really intelligent, not due to genetics, but rather due to a very interesting environmental influence. He thought of himself as a white person culturally! Maybe instead of genetics vs environment, we should start looking into the power of one's mind to shape one's destiny.


And of course, here is the link: http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/01/19/black-iq-gains-in-britain-kenya-and-dominica/

[#FF0000]

And of course, here is the link: http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2011/01/19/black-iq-gains-in-britain-kenya-and-dominica/

lol


from the 'about me' --

"I have been called a liberal race realist. Liberal race realism has been described as “a dash of race realism, positive White racial identity, the leftist view of American history, anti-racism, and a base of liberalism.”"

damn son you read some dumb blogs.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Why the fuck is debater not banned yet? He was pretty sus before but linking fucking RACE REALIST BLOGS is pretty god-damned past the suspicion line.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Hahaha, how can you simultaneously have a positive White racial identity and a leftist view of American history? :lol:

[#FF0000]

Yeah, and that's pulling a quote without even touching the "I'm smart because I saw myself as white". I am extremely curious as to how the debater thinks that isn't racist as hell? I didn't want to draw this off-topic but goddamn, dude.

[the debater]

Why the fuck is debater not banned yet? He was pretty sus before but linking fucking RACE REALIST BLOGS is pretty god-damned past the suspicion line.

I wasn't going for the race-realist blog, but rather for the comment I was seeking. And you can forgive me for mistaking Robert Lindsay as not being a race realist because that was not the impression I was getting from reading his articles. He wrote an article detailing how black IQs were going up relative to white IQs. I would highly recommend getting off your high horse. :)


Hahaha, how can you simultaneously have a positive White racial identity and a leftist view of American history? :lol:

It would be kind of like gay Nazis or some other oxymoronic group.


Yeah, and that's pulling a quote without even touching the "I'm smart because I saw myself as white". I am extremely curious as to how the debater thinks that isn't racist as hell? I didn't want to draw this off-topic but goddamn, dude.

You are a complete idiot. What the comment's author meant when he said he thought of himself as white was that he wasn't the stereotypical black person. He didn't listen to rap music or use ghetto slang in his vocabulary. It would be like if a white person watched anime, only played video games on Japanese consoles, and would thus consider themselves to be culturally Japanese. Jesus titty fucking Christ monkey balls.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

You are a complete idiot. What the comment's author meant when he said he thought of himself as white was that he wasn't the stereotypical black person. He didn't listen to rap music or use ghetto slang in his vocabulary. It would be like if a white person watched anime, only played video games on Japanese consoles, and would thus consider themselves to be culturally Japanese. Jesus titty fucking Christ monkey balls.

Yeah because what you just said isn't totally fucking stupid? Furthermore, how common is it for anyone to view themselves in a specific way? "I am this, and that" -- maybe our random-commenter-on-awful-blog-poster began to 'see himself as white' because he hung around in white-dominated insular college classes? How many white people listen to rap music and use 'ghetto slang' in their vocabulary? Are they... viewing themselves as black, by doing so? All this nonsense you've been suggesting here is just silly and utterly irrelevant to the social and cultural process that shapes a person's internal relation to their outward appearance anyway.

[#FF0000]

You are a complete idiot. What the comment's author meant when he said he thought of himself as white was that he wasn't the stereotypical black person. He didn't listen to rap music or use ghetto slang in his vocabulary.

No, he didn't say that. He said "I didn't see myself as black -- I saw myself as white". He said specifically he saw himself as "white". What does that mean, exactly? That reading books, having good diction and using proper enunciation is exclusive to being black? Wonder what that makes Ralph Ellison, Booker T Washington, and James Baldwin.


It would be like if a white person watched anime, only played video games on Japanese consoles, and would thus consider themselves to be culturally Japanese. Jesus titty fucking Christ monkey balls.Yeah -- racist, tone-deaf, and cringe-inducing as hell.

For such a staunch "anti-racist" you're exceedingly clueless on these subtle details of these subjects. As I keep reminding you.


I would highly recommend getting off your high horse. :)

The lack of self-awareness is staggering.

[the debater]

Yeah because what you just said isn't totally fucking stupid? Furthermore, how common is it for anyone to view themselves in a specific way? "I am this, and that" -- maybe our random-commenter-on-awful-blog-poster began to 'see himself as white' because he hung around in white-dominated insular college classes? How many white people listen to rap music and use 'ghetto slang' in their vocabulary? Are they... viewing themselves as black, by doing so? All this nonsense you've been suggesting here is just silly and utterly irrelevant to the social and cultural process that shapes a person's internal relation to their outward appearance anyway.

No, because if blacks are considered a lower caste in America, they will have low self-esteem and that can definitely have a negative impact on their morale, and even on their IQ. That's what the black guy was trying to say. He was trying to justify his belief that his IQ was environmental, not genetic. That's all he was trying to say. You can't take anything racist from his comment, because it wasn't racist. If you think it was a racist comment, you're misreading it, and it has become an issue of semantics.

[#FF0000]

No, because if blacks are considered a lower caste in America, they will have low self-esteem and that can definitely have a negative impact on their morale, and even on their IQ. That's what the black guy was trying to say. He was trying to justify his belief that his IQ was environmental, not genetic. That's all he was trying to say. You can't take anything racist from his comment, because it wasn't racist. If you think it was a racist comment, you're misreading it, and it has become an issue of semantics.

Nope. There's hella ways to take what the dude said. The easiest is "wow that's racist as fuck" because it sounds very much as if he's suggesting that intelligence is cultural by saying he has a high-IQ because he saw himself as "white" and not "black", as if intelligence and "black culture" are mutually exclusive (and as if intelligence is quantifiable in a test like that, and as if IQ tests aren't hugely culturally biased, etc. etc.). This "cultural" view is every bit as bigoted and chauvinistic as the scientific racist perspective.

However, if one wanted to be forgiving and chalk it up to poor communication, they could say that he was trying to say that he didn't feel like an outsider -- like an "other" -- and that the kind of marginalization that black people face in the US would lead to poor outcomes on an IQ test (or in anything, really) in any group.

Either way, you sure picked a shitty source. Excruciatingly poorly-worded anecdotal evidence and a racist blog.

[the debater]

No, he didn't say that. He said "I didn't see myself as black -- I saw myself as white". He said specifically he saw himself as "white". What does that mean, exactly? That reading books, having good diction and using proper enunciation is exclusive to being black? Wonder what that makes Ralph Ellison, Booker T Washington, and James Baldwin.

The problem is that many black students think it's "uncool" to be smart, and to try hard at their studies. They've been greatly misled by idiot rappers who try to justify a corrupt lifestyle of drugs, money, etc, etc. If you want to eliminate these negative stereotypes, you need to acknowledge that rap music, at least rap music from the mid 1990s onward, has been a terrible influence for not only blacks, but also other races. That's why Huey Freeman is the best tv show character right now in the U.S. I'm pretty sure he would be on my side right now in this debate. Of course I can only speculate because he's an imaginary character.



For such a staunch "anti-racist" you're exceedingly clueless on these subtle details of these subjects. As I keep reminding you.

You haven't done a good job yet of convincing me that I'm a clueless person. I make it a very strong priority of mine to be accurate, to cite my sources, to write using good grammar and sentence structure, and to not come across as a lunatic. How is any of this clueless? Please respond directly to this point, otherwise, you're going down!



The lack of self-awareness is staggering.

Defending myself. Trust me, you don't have to worry about my self-awareness.

[the debater]

Nope. There's hella ways to take what the dude said. The easiest is "wow that's racist as fuck" because it sounds very much as if he's suggesting that intelligence is cultural by saying he has a high-IQ because he saw himself as "white" and not "black", as if intelligence and "black culture" are mutually exclusive (and as if intelligence is quantifiable in a test like that, and as if IQ tests aren't hugely culturally biased, etc. etc.). This "cultural" view is every bit as bigoted and chauvinistic as the scientific racist perspective.

However, if one wanted to be forgiving and chalk it up to poor communication, they could say that he was trying to say that he didn't feel like an outsider -- like an "other" -- and that the kind of marginalization that black people face in the US would lead to poor outcomes on an IQ test (or in anything, really) in any group.

Either way, you sure picked a shitty source. Excruciatingly poorly-worded anecdotal evidence and a racist blog.

Can I ask if you're a troll?

[#FF0000]

The problem is that many black students think it's "uncool" to be smart, and to try hard at their studies. They've been greatly misled by idiot rappers who try to justify a corrupt lifestyle of drugs, money, etc, etc.

And what on the face of the planet makes you think this is unique to black students? The macho rejection of looking or sounding "too smart" is ubiquitous in schools because of a culture that finds its roots spread much, much farther than just in the music the kids listen to.


If you want to eliminate these negative stereotypes, you need to acknowledge that rap music, at least rap music from the mid 1990s onward, has been a terrible influence for not only blacks, but also other races.

I guess I would if I was the kind of dope that thought that "culture" just came out thin air and thought that social issues were the result of culture informing actions informing society. Maybe I'd be better off then, since it'd mean I was probably shielded from the reality of the situation, which is that children -- and especially black children -- are the poorest people in the United States, exposed to crime, exposed to homelessness, exposed to food insecurity, exposed to a school system that deepens class and racial stratification rather than alleviates it, exposed to a patriarchal society that stifles the emotional development of boys to break them to fit a mold of violent and isolated masculinity, and on, and on, and on.

And I won't even go into your chauvinistic assessment of hip-hop -- how you ignore huge chunks of a culture because it isn't shaped and stamped "conscious", because it's a joke to even talk about "rap music" if you want to talk about issues facing students and especially black and latino students in the United States.


You haven't done a good job yet of convincing me that I'm a clueless person. I make it a very strong priority of mine to be accurate, to cite my sources, to write using good grammar and sentence structure, and to not come across as a lunatic. How is any of this clueless? Please respond directly to this point, otherwise, you've lost the argument.


It's clueless because there's more to "Japanese" culture than video games and anime and there's more to "Black" culture than slang and hip hop -- and if someone said "yeah I feel Japanese because I like anime" then they'd be laughed out of existence.


Can I ask if you're a troll?

Stunning rebuttal, O Paragon of Reason. Try posting again but with substance this time please.

[Jimmie Higgins]

The problem is that many black students think it's "uncool" to be smart, and to try hard at their studies. They've been greatly misled by idiot rappers who try to justify a corrupt lifestyle of drugs, money, etc, etc.or maybe they saw "revenge of the nerds" or any "white" pop culture since pop was added to culture.

Most rap in hip hop is about how skilled the rapper is at any number of things to literary lyric tricks to hooking up with groupies. More white teens listen to hip hop than black teens numerically so this argument is absolute nonsense. People likening gangster movies in the 1930s did not cause immigrant enclaves to suffer during the depression. This argument is simply victim-blaming.

[the debater]

More white teens listen to hip hop than black teens numerically so this argument is absolute nonsense.

Do you understand the concept of over-representation? A higher percentage of black teens still listen to and are negatively influenced by hip-hop than white teens. Likewise, a middle-class white person who listens to hip-hop is probably not going to take their music seriously, because their life is nice enough. They don't feel the burden of being poor and desperate.


People likening gangster movies in the 1930s did not cause immigrant enclaves to suffer during the depression. This argument is simply victim-blaming.

But did those gangster movies glorify gang life in a positive light?

[#FF0000]

Do you understand the concept of over-representation? A higher percentage of black teens still listen to and are negatively influenced by hip-hop than white teens. Likewise, a middle-class white person who listens to hip-hop is probably not going to take their music seriously, because their life is nice enough. They don't feel the burden of being poor and desperate.

did it ever

maybe

perhaps

possibly

cross your mind

that the whole "being poor and desperate" thing

is more of a factor than the music they listen to?


But did those gangster movies glorify gang life in a positive light?

Uh, yes? Gangsters and criminals have been folk heroes and legend in the US since the revolution, dude.

[the debater]

And what on the face of the planet makes you think this is unique to black students? The macho rejection of looking or sounding "too smart" is ubiquitous in schools because of a culture that finds its roots spread much, much farther than just in the music the kids listen to.

I think I'm starting to see why there's a disconnect between you and I. You feel embarrassed to acknowledge that a lot of black teens are negatively influenced by rap, whereas I'm not embarrassed to admit it, because acknowledging it is the first step to solving the issue. Trust me, Huey Freeman would be on my side. You strike me as being the type of person who would criticize the Boondocks for being too racist towards black people, when in reality it's an excellent, genius tv show that understands the issues at hand better than almost everyone else.


I guess I would if I was the kind of dope that thought that "culture" just came out thin air and thought that social issues were the result of culture informing actions informing society. Maybe I'd be better off then, since it'd mean I was probably shielded from the reality of the situation, which is that children -- and especially black children -- are the poorest people in the United States, exposed to crime, exposed to homelessness, exposed to food insecurity, exposed to a school system that deepens class and racial stratification rather than alleviates it, exposed to a patriarchal society that stifles the emotional development of boys to break them to fit a mold of violent and isolated masculinity, and on, and on, and on.

Ok look, I never said that corrupt cultural influences are the only thing holding back black people. Obviously there are other factors holding them back as well. I'm just of the opinion that we need to address every single factor that is at play here. All the factors. All of them. We need to address the drug issues plaguing black neighborhoods. We need to address criminal justice issues. We need to address poorly performing schools that don't attract good teachers and that put minorities at a disadvantage. But we also need to acknowledge that modern hip-hop is pretty degenerate. Having said that, I do like a lot of rap songs such as Gang Starr and also Mad Villain. I also like k-pop.


And I won't even go into your chauvinistic assessment of hip-hop -- how you ignore huge chunks of a culture because it isn't shaped and stamped "conscious", because it's a joke to even talk about "rap music" if you want to talk about issues facing students and especially black and latino students in the United States.

See the above text.


It's clueless because there's more to "Japanese" culture than video games and anime and there's more to "Black" culture than slang and hip hop -- and if someone said "yeah I feel Japanese because I like anime" then they'd be laughed out of existence.

Fail. You're really, really good at misunderstanding me. Can you please choose to instead be bad at it, rather than good?

I wasn't going for an accurate portrayal of Japanese culture on purpose. I was just trying to explain why the black guy who wrote the comment wasn't racist towards black people.


Stunning rebuttal, O Paragon of Reason. Try posting again but with substance this time please.

I say this because your posts tend to be pretty embarrassing sometimes. Like when you got angry at Aleistser Granger for simply stating that black people are just as capable of racism as white people. He quoted actual text from a racist black nationalist forum, and you completely dismissed it. That is called denial.

[the debater]

Uh, yes? Gangsters and criminals have been folk heroes and legend in the US since the revolution, dude.

Are we talking about the folks who sold alcohol illegally under Prohibition? I can see why they would be heroes. :laugh:

Let's agree that we should focus on all the factors at work, not just the major ones, but also the minor ones? This thread should just end now. There's nothing left to talk about.

[#FF0000]

I think I'm starting to see why there's a disconnect between you and I. You feel embarrassed to acknowledge that a lot of black teens are negatively influenced by rap, whereas I'm not embarrassed to admit it, because acknowledging it is the first step to solving the issue.

No. The disconnect is that you believe that culture exists in a vacuum and influences society -- rather than culture being a product of society.


You strike me as being the type of person who would criticize the Boondocks for being too racist towards black peopleHuh, and imagine that, you're entirely wrong. Wonder what that says for the rest of your assessments.


Ok look, I never said that corrupt cultural influences are the only thing holding back black people. Obviously there are other factors holding them back as well. I'm just of the opinion that we need to address every single factor that is at play here. All the factors. All of them. We need to address the drug issues plaguing black neighborhoods. We need to address criminal justice issues. We need to address poorly performing schools that don't attract good teachers and that put minorities at a disadvantage. But we also need to acknowledge that modern hip-hop is pretty degenerate. Having said that, I do like a lot of rap songs such as Gang Starr and also Mad Villain. I also like k-pop. Except that culture is a reflection of the society that breeds it. To say "ugh look at this awful hip hop and these lyrics it's corrupting our youth!!!!" is to miss the crux of the issue entirely (on top of, again, totally ignoring the depth and breadth of hip hop music by writing so much of it off when every criticism you make of the genre could be made of other genres just as easily). Instead of focusing on actual issues that impact people lives, you go on and on and on with these ill-informed generalizations about music, as if that's anywhere close to a priority issue.



Fail. You're really, really good at misunderstanding me. Can you please choose to instead be bad at it, rather than good?

I wasn't going for an accurate portrayal of Japanese culture on purpose. I was just trying to explain why the black guy who wrote the comment wasn't racist towards black people. You're the one who misunderstood -- reducing an entire culture down to stereotypical elements is a racist thing to do. The person who says "I feel japanese" because they like anime and japanese video games is saying some deeply ignorant and, yes, racist nonsense. The same is true of the person who says "I don't feel black because--(or "I never thought of you as black because--" for that matter) I/you don't listen to hip hop or use slang".


I say this because your posts tend to be pretty embarrassing sometimes. Like when you got angry at Aleistser Granger for simply stating that black people are just as capable of racism as white people. He quoted actual text from a racist black nationalist forum, and you completely dismissed it. That is called denial.I said several times over in that thread that people of color are certainly capable of bigotry on an individual level -- but I stressed that there is a difference between that and racism as we define it -- systematic oppression of a group of people based on "race".

Again, the millionth time, you're here talking about issues that you don't know the first thing about.

[#FF0000]

Let's agree that we should focus on all the factors at work, not just the major ones, but also the minor ones? This thread should just end now. There's nothing left to talk about.

Nope, because I'm not going to concede for a second that hip-hop is even a "minor" factor in this. There's all this talk and condemnation of ignorant hip-hop -- but where's the condemnation for the other ignorant-as-fuck music I listen to?

[RHIZOMES]

The problem is that many black students think it's "uncool" to be smart, and to try hard at their studies. They've been greatly misled by idiot rappers who try to justify a corrupt lifestyle of drugs, money, etc, etc. If you want to eliminate these negative stereotypes, you need to acknowledge that rap music, at least rap music from the mid 1990s onward, has been a terrible influence for not only blacks, but also other races. That's why Huey Freeman is the best tv show character right now in the U.S. I'm pretty sure he would be on my side right now in this debate. Of course I can only speculate because he's an imaginary character.

I am blinded by the whiteness of this paragraph.

You're trying to come off as really smart and contrarian, but you're really just regurgitating the same old tired casual racist cliches that i've heard a million white people say before you in a gajillion different ways. Because everything you're saying is so commonplace and not very well-thought out, it isn't very smart or contrarian at all.

All because you're saying that you're a master debater who cites quality sources and has highly reasoned arguments, doesn't actually make it so. Displaying intelligence is something that needs to be shown, not told - and from the kind of 'arguments' you make, it is clear that you are not as intelligent as you repeatedly proclaim yourself to be.

Your attitude to other peoples opinions reminds me of my own attitude when I was about 12 years old, which is roughly around the age I would place you. So I sympathise to a degree, and my advice would be to please just stop embarrassing yourself by spending more time reading books and less time trying to look smart on the internet, it'll do you a lot of good.

[Sea]

race realistYou're not doing yourself any favors if you keep calling it that. Go suck a hotdog, whitie. It's racism, not race-realism.
I am blinded by the whiteness of this paragraph.Probably so white he puts ketchup on his hotdogs.

[Halert]

I'm a programmer myself.
I wish there where more woman who are programmers, the programming world is very much male dominated it's a shame. I wonder why, do woman simply not like programming? or do they not want to enter a male dominated work environment? or is it something else?

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'm a programmer myself.
I wish there where more woman who are programmers, the programming world is very much male dominated it's a shame. I wonder why, do woman simply not like programming? or do they not want to enter a male dominated work environment? or is it something else?when programming began it was dominated by women in the u.s. It was also low paid like other "women's work" and was considered to be something unimportant like data entry or clerical work.

When the work began to be seen as serious, it became better paid and male dominated.

It could also be the negative influence of soap operas and romance novels which corrupt women and teach them not to try too hard because some rich man will come along and marry them..... Nah.:lol:

[Manic Impressive]

The article was an enjoyable read Psycho. Although I think it does a good job of showing the ridiculousness of "privilege theory". Since when is it a privilege to be racially profiled? As the author has been. Next we'll be hearing that the old trope about Jewish people being naturally good with money is a privilege if you want to work in accounting. Or that being black is a privilege if you want to get far in sports. Or being an attractive woman getting a promotion or pay rise because the boss wants to sleep with her. These things are backhanded compliments, prejudice no less discrimination than outward hostility towards someone of a different ethnicity. Personally I don't call that a privilege, but if it is then just about everyone on the planet is privileged in some way, in some specific field.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I think modern rap music has been a terrible influence on white people, in making them think that the problems of black society is caused by gangsterism and selling rocks and not that these are deep rooted problems with serious social and economic forces underpinning them that go way beyond musical culture.

Yeah, The Boondocks ridicules members of the Black bourgeoisie for exploiting this identity for their own personal advancement, but I doubt Aaron McGruder would agree with the interpretation given by The Debater of his young neo-panther character.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

I think I'm starting to see why there's a disconnect between you and I. You feel embarrassed to acknowledge that a lot of black teens are negatively influenced by rap, whereas I'm not embarrassed to admit it, because acknowledging it is the first step to solving the issue. Trust me, Huey Freeman would be on my side. You strike me as being the type of person who would criticize the Boondocks for being too racist towards black people, when in reality it's an excellent, genius tv show that understands the issues at hand better than almost everyone else.

So the sources you constantly talk about include... a TV series. Really? That's like watching "The Burning Miles" and considering yourself an expert on Soviet society.


Ok look, I never said that corrupt cultural influences are the only thing holding back black people. Obviously there are other factors holding them back as well. I'm just of the opinion that we need to address every single factor that is at play here. All the factors. All of them. We need to address the drug issues plaguing black neighborhoods. We need to address criminal justice issues. We need to address poorly performing schools that don't attract good teachers and that put minorities at a disadvantage. But we also need to acknowledge that modern hip-hop is pretty degenerate.

If only the brown people would abandon their entarete Kunst and take up more healthily Aryan modes of expression.

Your entire shtick seems to be to blame structurally discriminated people for the problems they face in a deeply racist society (those Negroes listen to degenerate jungle music - they take drugs - they don't value hard work and discipline like we folk do - and so on and so on). It's no wonder you can talk to white nationalists on such an intimate basis.

Also, notice how this supposed "socialist" doesn't address the economic discrimination of black workers, the root cause of the murderous anti-black racism in America.


I say this because your posts tend to be pretty embarrassing sometimes. Like when you got angry at Aleistser Granger for simply stating that black people are just as capable of racism as white people. He quoted actual text from a racist black nationalist forum, and you completely dismissed it. That is called denial.

Oh, the poor white people, someone said mean things about them. What you don't seem to grasp is that black people are structurally oppressed, whereas white people are not. You remind me of the extreme moderates and liberals in the gay rights movement (something I have personal experience with) who spend more time crying about "heterophobia" (oh, the poor straight people, someone said mean things about them) than fighting actual discrimination.


The article was an enjoyable read Psycho. Although I think it does a good job of showing the ridiculousness of "privilege theory". Since when is it a privilege to be racially profiled? As the author has been. Next we'll be hearing that the old trope about Jewish people being naturally good with money is a privilege if you want to work in accounting. Or that being black is a privilege if you want to get far in sports. Or being an attractive woman getting a promotion or pay rise because the boss wants to sleep with her. These things are backhanded compliments, prejudice no less discrimination than outward hostility towards someone of a different ethnicity. Personally I don't call that a privilege, but if it is then just about everyone on the planet is privileged in some way, in some specific field.

Ironically, most forms of "privilege theory" fail for the same reason as Professional Poster's theories - they ignore the economic base of society and focus on culture, on ideology, which they conceive as free-floating and unconstrained by the mode of production. But privilege theorists are at least on the right side of the social divide.

[Quail]

I've got quite a bit of uni work to do today, but I'm keeping an eye on this thread and will come back to it later. I can't believe anyone would blame hip-hop music for young black people doing badly in education, and not stuff like their teachers expecting them to do badly and being much more likely to live in poverty.

[Per Levy]

is blaming a music genre for social issues still a thing? i though that died out in the 2000s. and yeah debater is a racist, this thread is all the proof needed.

[Sasha]

Why the fuck is debater not banned yet?


he is now....

[Firebrand]

I think I'm starting to see why there's a disconnect between you and I. You feel embarrassed to acknowledge that a lot of black teens are negatively influenced by rap, whereas I'm not embarrassed to admit it, because acknowledging it is the first step to solving the issue.


Thats a bit of a stupid generalisation. Plenty of Rap music is actually very intelligent and socially aware. Just because you don't personally like it doesn't mean its ok to dismiss an entire genre out of hand.

This guy for example is one of the most intelligent people i've ever heard speak.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjvUMr1-AAU

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

Mistah debater - he banned.