Cuba & Racism

[Capitalist]

I am sick of Fidel Castro Sympathizers telling me that Fidel Castro ended Racism in Cuba.

Present-Day-Cuba might as well have a sign on the doors of power saying “Whites only.”

Currently, Cuba’s blacks and mulattos make up more than 60 percent of the island’s population but hold less than 20 percent of the leadership positions in government. By one estimate, less than 10 percent of the top leadership in the Politburo is nonwhite.

The overwhelming number of officials working at the highest levels of the Cuban government and military are white.

Check Out the Websites -
http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc.html
http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc_politi...ical_power.html (http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc_political_power.html)
http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc_counci...l_of_state.html (http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc_council_of_state.html)

Not Too Many Black Faces in this list of Current Cuban Leaders?

And let me remind everyone that Batista, former Cuban dictator, was a MULATTO - So I don't want any bullshit about how Batista promoted racism more than Fidel.

[Moskitto]

Problem. How many of them Apply for positions in government?

And racism isn't just against non-white, It's a myth that non-whites can't be racist. eg. Mugabe (against Whites), Pol Pot (against non-Khmers)

BTW of course Fidel didn't remove racism totally from Cuba, Infact Racism which you speak of (disproportionate numbers of races in power) exists in the US, Britain, France, Germany, Russia, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Belarussia, Canada...

[revolutionary spirit]

mugabe i do support in getting whites of the land,but his methods can be quite harsh

[Freiheit]

i dont support fidels regime at all, we had big discussionabout it (somewhere in 'general political topics').
but i read in several books (including western books against the cuban revolution) that fidel ended the racism based society. and that now there is no more racism (or not much).

[Freiheit]

about 20% of the population of the states are black.
but in death cell (ppl who wait to be killed by the american government), the majority is black.

Got it?

[ArgueEverything]

Quote: from Capitalist on 11:03 pm on Dec. 19, 2001
I am sick of Fidel Castro Sympathizers telling me that Fidel Castro ended Racism in Cuba.

Present-Day-Cuba might as well have a sign on the doors of power saying “Whites only.”

Currently, Cuba’s blacks and mulattos make up more than 60 percent of the island’s population but hold less than 20 percent of the leadership positions in government. By one estimate, less than 10 percent of the top leadership in the Politburo is nonwhite.

The overwhelming number of officials working at the highest levels of the Cuban government and military are white.

Check Out the Websites -
http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc.html
http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc_politi...ical_power.html (http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc_political_power.html)
http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc_counci...l_of_state.html (http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc_council_of_state.html)

Not Too Many Black Faces in this list of Current Cuban Leaders?

And let me remind everyone that Batista, former Cuban dictator, was a MULATTO - So I don't want any bullshit about how Batista promoted racism more than Fidel.



positions in leadership is not neccesarily indicative of levels of racism in a society, you know.

incidently, there is a minimum quota of blacks that have to be accepted into the politburo, on fidel's orders. dont find anything like that in US politics do you?

[Capitalist]

I realize that a Che Guevara supporter - doesn't equal an automatic Fidel Castro supporter too. Many support the ideals of Che Guevara, yet dislike Fidel Castro and consider him a dictator - not a communist.

About the Race Inequality in Cuba.

If you think Blacks have it hard in the United States, but easy in Cuba - you are sadly mistaken.

No - what I find in the United States are more black leaders, not political quotas, than in Cuba.

The United States is full of Black Leaders - Colin Powel, Condoleezza Rice, Clarence Thomas, etc.

Cuba has no black leaders - NONE WHAT SO EVER.

Yet the black poulation is more like 35 - 40% on the island, not 20%. Mulattos make up about 20 - 30%. Whites are definitely the minority on the island.

But outside the island?

Another aspect I find interesting is that most of the Exiled Cuban Community is White. They send dollar bills to their white relatives in Cuba. Of course, Castro will not discourage Americans from sending money to Cuba - even if they are Cuban American. Unfortunately the only people receiving hard currency and outside support is the White Cubans not the Black Cubans.

[Capitalist]

To Freiheit.

Personally, I do not support the death penalty - Even for Fidel Castro. Besides the United States Death Penalty has nothing to do with racism in Cuba. Perhaps you may not think of Cuba as racist - but the black PPL definitely will get no where living in Cuba, except maybe as sugar cane worker of the month.

[ArgueEverything]

Quote: from Capitalist on 3:49 pm on Dec. 20, 2001

About the Race Inequality in Cuba.

If you think Blacks have it hard in the United States, but easy in Cuba - you are sadly mistaken.

No - what I find in the United States are more black leaders, not political quotas, than in Cuba.

The United States is full of Black Leaders - Colin Powel, Condoleezza Rice, Clarence Thomas, etc.

Cuba has no black leaders - NONE WHAT SO EVER.

Yet the black poulation is more like 35 - 40% on the island, not 20%. Mulattos make up about 20 - 30%. Whites are definitely the minority on the island.

But outside the island?

Another aspect I find interesting is that most of the Exiled Cuban Community is White. They send dollar bills to their white relatives in Cuba. Of course, Castro will not discourage Americans from sending money to Cuba - even if they are Cuban American. Unfortunately the only people receiving hard currency and outside support is the White Cubans not the Black Cubans.

no, there are black cuban leaders.

http://www.africana.com/Articles/tt_256.htm

^relatively unbiased article, scroll down to near the bottom and it talks about blacks and the cuban revolution.

6 of the 24 politburo members are black. thats 25% of the politburo, when blacks are only 11% of the population! (yes its 11, i checked, the cia even says so:http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html)

i think you are have fallen victim to a smeer campaign against castro by rich, predominantly white cuban exiles. their hatred for castro is notorious. they are, of course, free to hate castro as much as they wish to, but their hatred lessens the probability of any objectivity in their arguments.

castro's record with blacks, not just in cuba, but everywhere, is inspiring:
he met with malcolm x and many other black panthers
consistently condemned apartheid south africa
he's called for affirmative action
etc etc

and another thing: dont u think its funny that its white cubans fleeing cuba and not blacks? arent THEY supposed to be the oppressed ones?

[gooddoctor]

hey, what about general pombo from the revolution? he is one of castro's most famous lieutenants and black as the night. is it castro's fault that he inherited a state that was practically run by white americans and where blacks didn't have the same rights as a dog? now black people are much better off in cuba, but it is only forty years since the revolution and even in utopia that is not enough time to bring complete equality to cuba, but at least they are trying. but noone will trade with cuba, so how can they fund big anti-racist campaigns. we have loads of money, but because it lies in corporate and shareholder bank accounts we cannot finance them either.

in the states your government is ruled by white supremacists, the religious fascists and extreme conservatives. a few token blacks in power to make it look as though society is equal is just propaganda. bush himself is openly racist, as he more than adequately demonstrated during his whole "civilisation versus afghanistan" fiasco.

it is the same in britain, i mean just look at the state of our governments. women are represented in power, but is it proportionate? no. in the decades since women gained the franchise has discrimination of women in the workplace ended? no. in our society, on average, girls acheive better grades than boys in school, but in the adult world they are passed over for jobs for men, their wages are lower and there is not fifty per cent women in power. it is the same for racial discrimination.

our societies are corrupt. inhuman capitalism means that our states are run by economic rationalism, and issues which affect real people are side-lined in the name of profits. it is a vulgar state of affairs and anyone who supports this system is a traitor to their own family, friends and people. capitalism cannot be the basis of government, it kills people and perpetuates misery for the majority of people. there has to be a mix of everything, but the basis of society must reflect the interests of the vast majority of the people. under socialism, issues of discrimination can be tackled because problems with funding are irrelevant.

[Dreadnaht1]

Capitalist:"And let me remind everyone that Batista, former Cuban dictator, was a MULATTO - So I don't want any bullshit about how Batista promoted racism more than Fidel."

You're right, Batista preferred street riots on a daily basis killing thousands of Cubans who were minding their own buisiness and their own lives.

[Capitalist]

Isn't it funny that more than 10% of the Cuban Poulation has left Cuba for the United States.

That more than 20% of Cubans actually live outside of Cuba.

[el che1220]

no it's not....but it shows that many of them have something to be ashamed of.....who knows...most of them used to own businesses and sugar cane plantations....they problably exploited the blacks that much (and the people too) so that they got scared of possible retaliations from the gvt....and I think they would have deserved it for supporting Batista...and anyway...what turns around comes around like the old saying asserts....:)

[Capitalist]

Dreadnaught1

I do not support Batista - Never have.

Between the two, Fidel Castro is about 100X worse.

Malcom X - you call that a black leader? All he did was spread hatred. He was about as effective as the Grand Dragon of the KKK. Perhaps a leader of hatred - not a leader of black people.

Now - Martin Luther King

He was a true leader. He led his people forward, not backwards like Malcom X.

[el che1220]

how worse? tell me how Castro can be worse than Batista....?

[CommieBastard]

Capitalist, there are more irish people in the states than in ireland. 20% of cubans living outside of cuba is in comparison a minor thing.
And as someone else said, those people are either the people who fucked over everyone else, or the descendants of them. They flee because they know their guilt.
Also, you mention that the reason whites are better off is because Cuban Americans send them money. So, what you're saying is, if i understand fully, that the US is corrupting the Cuban system towards the 'racism' displayed in it's politics... so it's nothing wrong with Cuba, but actually an influence of the US?
hmm.. interesting...

[Reuben]

Rgarding this debate over alleged Cuban raccism you may be interested to know, capitalist, that a number of black panthers fled the U.S.A. where they were suffering discriminationm hrrassment, violence etc. from state authorities, to go and live in cuba.

[Guest]

You can dismiss Cuban exiles as mafiosi, American pawns, or whatever other ridiculous tags you can come up with, but Capitalist's statement reigns true. Over 20 percent of Cubans live outside of Cuba, one-fifth of the Cuban population has fled Castro's socialist state. To say that they were members of the Cuban upper-class, as dreadnaht doesn't change the situation one bit. First since such a statement is based on a gross and most likely faulty assumption; and second, because it would be a tribute to the pre-Castro system if 20 percent of Cubans were of the upper-class.
You ask how can Castro be worse than Batista? Well you didn't see people leaving Cuba in droves when Batista was in power. I don't believe anyone here, communist, socialist, anarchist, or sensible, supports Batista. But the migration patterns of Cubans before and after 1959 should not be ignored.

[el che1220]

well..it's pretty easy to counter your arguments...first of all..the people who left Cuba in 1959 belonged to the elite, the "bourgeoisie" of Cuba...which means they had the money in order to leave the country.....the peasants under Batista had virtually nothing........so how could they leave? second...why would the "bourgeois" leave? They supported Bastista...the laws were tailored to their needs...don't forget one thing...it all started from a little bunvh of people..merely a dozen...to topple that pawn of Batista..and as you know..you can't win a war without winning the heart of the proletariat.....:)

[CommieBastard]

The reason why they didnt leave Cuba when batista was in power is because there was no alternative.
The US was exactly the same.
And as for 20% being upper class, i beleive the assertion was that they were bourgoisie middle class.
i.e. owners of the means of production.
And to be frank, in most other countries there is more than 20% bourgoisie.

As for migration patterns..
interestingly enough there is only one time in US history when more people were leaving than coming in. It was during the Great Deppression, and they were all fleeing to the USSR.
The only way the US has avoided a wholesale fleeing of people is by setting up a war-dependant system which needs war for the economy to work, and for the people to support the govt. There's nothing like the loyalty of those in fear of their life.

[Capitalist]

Black Panthers = Klu Klux Klan = Neo Nazi

All are racist, violent, and hateful. Many of the Black Panthers that fled are wanted on murder charges. Proof that Cuba supports terrorism on all levels.

Irish Americans arrived in the 1800s - Cuban Americans have been arriving since the 1960s. The Irish Community has had more time to grow. The Cubans are just getting here. And about 1.5 million Cubans have exiled from Cuba (Current Cuban Population = 11-12 million). These are Cubans from Cuba - not the U.S.

When the government of today's Cuba grants a dental surgeon, surely a capable and intelligent person, a salary of approximately 18 U.S. dollars a month, is this an example of victory? When it is determined that in the U.S. there are approximately 103,000 businesses owned by Cuban exiles, with 15.8 billion dollars a year in revenues, an amount that is probably higher than the gross national product of Cuba.

[el che1220]

Black Panthers are terrorists?...well......anyway..the word "terrorist" is only a matter of opinion.....it's not an objective word...according to Israel, most of the palestinians are terrorists, according to London, the IRA is a terrorist group, but for the Irish people, they're fighting for freedom......see..it's all a matter of perspective...who knows..with this logic, we can easily assert that the War of Independence was spurred by terrorists...lol...(from an British point of view...)---if having opposite opinions means being a terrorist...well, I'm one of them...:)....hasta la victoria siempre....

[CommieBastard]

What's wrong with a dental surgeon getting $18 a month? why should the intelligent be rewarded more than anyone else? we all have the same needs, and we are all equal in death.
What you have to remember is that $18 will go further in a poor country like cuba, not to mention that comparitive to most other wages that is probably higher.

As for cuban exiles being succesful capitalists, that's because when they moved to the USA they had prior business knowledge, what with them being the bourgoisie, owning capital already, and oh yeah, getting massive subsidies and incentives form the US govt. The US want them rich, they make the perfect little thing to prop up and say "look how well these folks are doing!". Well i guarantee that if Cuba lost its communism then theyd stop giving a damn about any kind of cuban except the kind which has money.

[Moskitto]

Er, How much money is there in Cuba compared to America?

Anyway you said they were all slaves so they can't be paid anything.

[Capitalist]

Cubans are not racist people, evident due to widespread inter-marrying.
CUBAN GOVERNMENT IS RACIST.

The Black Panthers, Neo-Nazis, or Klu Klux Klan would not be allowed in Cuba. Cuban Government does not permit clubs, associations or movements based on race; there is no NAACP in Cuba, nor would one be allowed.

TO ARGUE EVERYTHING - who stated some biased statistics:

Let me point out a few statistics you forgot to conviently mention.

According to that Census you read (which by the way was taken in 1980 - before the Mariel Boat Lift - when even more whites left Cuba). You said that it states 11% are Black. You conviently forgot to mention that the same Census shows that 51% of the population is Mulatto and 37% of the Population is White.

You still fail to prove your point. Pure Whites make up 75% of the Leadership - according to your slanted statistics.

What is wrong with that picture? - Maybe you can argue a little more, or can you show me some real reason and truth?

Not a very Democratic, or at least Representative Government, of the people.

Look at the websites again - Not very representative of the Cuban Population. Mostly High Class WHITE PEOPLE RULING CUBA.

Check Out the Websites -
http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc.html
http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc_politi...ical_power.html (http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc_political_power.html)
http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc_counci...l_of_state.html (http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc_council_of_state.html)

[Guest]

"The only way the US has avoided a wholesale fleeing of people is by setting up a war-dependant system which needs war for the economy to work, and for the people to support the govt. There's nothing like the loyalty of those in fear of their life."

Where did you come up with this load of crap?

[Dreadnaht1]

Capitalist:"The Black Panthers, Neo-Nazis, or Klu Klux Klan would not be allowed in Cuba. Cuban Government does not permit clubs, associations or movements based on race; there is no NAACP in Cuba, nor would one be allowed."

Why is there a need to permit anti-rascist clubs when there is no rascism? It does kind of defeat the whole point.

Comrade Dread

[CommieBastard]

Guest - by observation.

[Capitalist]

The Government bans the right to freely assemble.

Therefore, the Governemnt bans black cubans from assembling a group, like a NAACP, to demonstrate for equal representation in government.

[revolutionary spirit]

capitalist u said that the irish r so comfortable these days is that because we have had more time to grow,well erm i think when we first came over here,like in england we were treated like shit,wages being the lowest,only through fighting wars did we earn some respect like the american civil war,the cubans in folrida are being treated a whole lot better because like West Berlin they want to make them a showcase for capitalism

[ArgueEverything]

Quote: from Capitalist on 7:50 pm on Dec. 20, 2001


TO ARGUE EVERYTHING - who stated some biased statistics:

Let me point out a few statistics you forgot to conviently mention.

According to that Census you read (which by the way was taken in 1980 - before the Mariel Boat Lift - when even more whites left Cuba). You said that it states 11% are Black. You conviently forgot to mention that the same Census shows that 51% of the population is Mulatto and 37% of the Population is White.

You still fail to prove your point. Pure Whites make up 75% of the Leadership - according to your slanted statistics.

What is wrong with that picture? - Maybe you can argue a little more, or can you show me some real reason and truth?

Not a very Democratic, or at least Representative Government, of the people.

Look at the websites again - Not very representative of the Cuban Population. Mostly High Class WHITE PEOPLE RULING CUBA.

Check Out the Websites -
http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc.html
http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc_politi...ical_power.html (http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc_political_power.html)
http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc_counci...l_of_state.html (http://www.cubapolidata.com/gpc/gpc_council_of_state.html)



yes, its not as clear cut racist as you make it out to be.

in america blacks are UNDERrepresented in parliament, and whites are overrepresented.

in cuba both blacks and whites are overrepresented in the politburo. it seems to be mullatos that are underrepresentated. and from looking at the links you gave me, maybe many of those ppl ARE mullatos. how do we know? can't really tell by looking at them. cubans are heavily mixed. racial interbreeding is commonplace, america is getting there.

as for malcolm x, im not here to defend or condemn him. the inarguable fact is that he was popular with lots of blacks and therefore was a black leader. and castro met him.

malcolm recanted his racist views about whites btw. he split from the Black Muslims bcos they were racist, and thats why they shot him down.

[Freiheit]

i support ArgueEverything.
Capitalist has no points.

Capitalist, i believe you, your fact are probably right. and you know that i dont fidel castro at all (cuba is another animal farm). but the question is:
"is it racistic, if there are unpropotional many whites in leading positions?"

we have to talk about that.
and not that Capitalist says in every post that there are more whites.

[Griffin]

Capitalist-
so what if the politburo isnt proportional to the people. do you believe americas parliment is exactly proportional to all minorities? i dont think so.

[Guest]

actually there are ridiculous voter districting laws that try to ensure that America's congressional diversity be proportionate to the population diversity.

[Freiheit]

do you really believe in demcoracy in america?

democracy is more than saying it.

by the way, how many americans can even spell democracy?

(Edited by Freiheit at 2:05 am on Dec. 22, 2001)