EDL clash with Anti-Fascists in Bristol [Archive]

Revenant

26th January 2014, 17:06

Neo-Nazi's and fascists throughout history have used misdirection and subversion, Anjem Choudhary is a fascist who lives in this country but he is muslim, David Myatt is another fascist but he is a new age guru, he used to be muslim, after he was a National socialist:

The government and officials of National-Socialist Germany strove hard to uphold and live by the ethics of National-Socialism, as did every genuine National-Socialist, even after the defeat of NS Germany in what has become known as the First Zionist War.

Thus, in NS Germany, groups such as Muslims and Buddhists were accorded full respect, and allowed to practise their religion freely. In the pre-war years, NS Germany helped organize a pan-Islamic world congress in Berlin. Berlin itself was home to thriving Muslim and Buddhist communities, of many races, and the Berlin Mosque held regular prayers even during the war years, attended by Arabs, Indians, Turks, Afghans and people of many other races. Indeed, the Berlin Mosque was one of the few buildings to survive the lethal, indiscriminate, bombing and bombardment, and although damaged, it was clearly recognizable as a Mosque amid the surrounding rubble.
http://gblt.webs.com/

Revenant

26th January 2014, 17:16

Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of UAF or that kind of anti-fascism generally, but to describe them as "fascistic" seems a bit of a stretch. In any case, with the decline of the SWP, UAF has largely ceased to function in any practical sense. They don't seem to be mobilising any kind of opposition at all to the EDL national demo in Slough in about a week, for example. Anti-fascist organisation is increasingly being done by unaligned and autonomous local groups. Ostensibly UAF still exists, but it's not doing anything, not locally or nationally as far as I and others can tell. Does this correlate with what others are seeing?

I'm saying I think EDL people when continuously confronted with reasoned explanation of the facts, referencing the internationalist nature of their own consumption, maybe by taking them to a country where Primark uses slave labour, would develop a greater understanding of the world, history and how they contribute to the things they protest about occasionally.

I'd be interested to know if their protests correspond to the prevalence of "radical islam", or child grooming in the media, but doubt the studies have been done on that.

These people essentially have no idea about history and are thus susceptible to blind patriotism, they are more xenophobic than racist, the AF groups this far seem to think the best solution is to reinforce cultural prejudices, division amongst the working class and just gang up and shout at the EDL when they demonstrate what are, on some level valid concerns, or at least sections of the political class and UKIP voters seem to think so.

Without dialogue tensions are heightening, Tommy Robinson probably got sick of the death threats and saw that very thing, maybe he feels sick he contributed to tensions rising himself, by identifying as an object of identification for those who want somebody to stand up to what they see as a decline in living standards corresponding with mass immigration and the EU.

Nakidana

28th January 2014, 19:30

■ No to scapegoating of immigrants
■ No to Islamophobia
■ Yes to diversity

Diversity includes fear of irrational religious beliefs.

It also includes nationalistic sentiment and people's right to not be particularly well informed.

A lot of people naturally correlate the decline in the economy, and their communities, to the arrival of the foreign language speaking incomers, I don't particularly agree with any form of tribalism, and frequently argue with DM readers about these diversionary tactics to create divisions among the "European Working class", but I am at least sympathetic to their despair (many having watched their countries decline(through the televised narrative of events)) I don't just shout slogans at them or boo them when they speak :)

What a load of rubbish, fuck the EDL. I don't want to hear them speak, I just want them to go away, one way or another. How can I ever be sympathetic to a bunch of racist fools who would take any chance they could get to bash my head in? These are people who go around giving nazi salutes and you want to try and "reason" with them?

What's even more hilarious is that you try to argue the UAF is worse than the EDL. Here's a quick quiz: You're a person with dark skin, walking past which of the aforementioned groups is most likely to get you beat up? :rolleyes:

Trap Queen Voxxy

28th January 2014, 19:42

Diversity includes fear of irrational religious beliefs.

Diversity means everyone is different and that's ok. Fuck assimilationist politics.

Revenant

28th January 2014, 23:00

What a load of rubbish, fuck the EDL. I don't want to hear them speak, I just want them to go away, one way or another. How can I ever be sympathetic to a bunch of racist fools who would take any chance they could get to bash my head in? These are people who go around giving nazi salutes and you want to try and "reason" with them?
You want English people to go away? how do you propose you achieve that, I suggested dialogue, you say fuck that and fuck them. What is your solution?
This is a quote from a facebook group with over 6,000 members:

A page to show the masses that the EDL are not the Racist thugs the media make us out to be. We are in fact normal family orientated working people, that are fed up coming second best in our own country

What does the left have to say about this sense of betrayal British working class people feel, what do we have to say about economic migrants, benefits tourism or radical Islam?

Do you not think more white working class people, in poor socio economic conditions are drawn towards patriotism, nationalism etc than the left, as an outlet for their frustrations and opposition to the political class?

What's even more hilarious is that you try to argue the UAF is worse than the EDL. Here's a quick quiz: You're a person with dark skin, walking past which of the aforementioned groups is most likely to get you beat up? :rolleyes:
The whole point is either group is composed of mere hooligans, or people who care passionately about their cause, whatever way you look at it.

One however (the EDL) has no political platform, no political party, no media outlet, or media coverage that answers their particular concerns.

UAF has David Cameron as a founding signatory, all 3 main parties advance what people who read The Mail consider to be destructive EU, and Immigration policies.

You can't tell me these concerns aren't valid amongst large sections of the British Public?

Look at Nationalist sentiment North of the Border! We're part of the same country yet the English Nationalists don't have a National party when the Scot's have a National parliament and popular Independence movement, is that just an irrelevant fact?

Maybe the English want Independence too?

Trap Queen Voxxy

28th January 2014, 23:45

You want English people to go away?

Well, I mean, your food is pretty horrible, so there's that. Plus, there is also the issue of, if I was in UK, I'd be just another "pikey parasite." Fuck England.

how do you propose you achieve that, I suggested dialogue, you say fuck that and fuck them. What is your solution?

Dialogue? What would I, have to say to say to a fascist, other than, "fuck off"? Are we somehow, through heavy "talk sessions," going to rectify our diametrically opposed politics? Absolutely not, so what's the point? There is none and I wouldn't be caught dead talking to one unless it was a conversation of how I am going to merge a 2x4 with their face.

What does the left have to say about this sense of betrayal British working class people feel, what do we have to say about economic migrants, benefits tourism or radical Islam?

It's misplaced and stupid? Perhaps that? Or more seriously put, it's counter-productive, reactionary and suicidal.

Do you not think more white working class people, in poor socio economic conditions are drawn towards patriotism, nationalism etc than the left, as an outlet for their frustrations and opposition to the political class?

The white proletariat of numerous European/North American countries have historically been co-opted and bamboozled by reactionary politics the same as they have for reformist politics; what's your point? This doesn't make it any less of a problem. Nationalism, patriotism, nativism, etc. are a disease which needs to be cured, if we are to proceed to phase 2. I give two fucks how someone "feels." The real world doesn't operate on "feelings."

The whole point is either group is composed of mere hooligans, or people who care passionately about their cause, whatever way you look at it.

Historically the KKK has engaged in charity works and events to combat their negative image too? Even going so far as to donate money to black Christian congergations to show they aren't "anti-black," but does this somehow make it true and negate their true politics? No.

Does this somehow negate events like the murder of 4 children during the Birmingham bombing? Or, I don't know, decades of lynch mobs? What about Emmett Till? Are we to assume, following this logic, that members of the KKK, which has no governing body, coherent political platform, etc. either, is really just "alienated white workers venting frustration," and that we, in the labor movement, should some how entertain their delusions and or work with them? What is the qualitative difference between the two groups here? The KKK, EDL, etc. are no different than nativist groups of the past like the Know Nothings as seen in movies such as Gangs of New York. It's my understanding that England has a very long and very vile history of nativist politics; it's not a new phenomena.

That's like saying, if the EDL sells enough cookies, we should just forget about that whole Exeter "incident"? William Burnside? Or the guy that decided it was "ok" to assault a deaf man in Hanley? The EDL have such a "stellar," array of cadre, don't they? Pedophiles, rapists, murderers, thugs, etc. and you want us to talk to, these people?

One however (the EDL) has no political platform, no political party, no media outlet, or media coverage that answers their particular concerns.

Neither does the KKK.

You can't tell me these concerns aren't valid amongst large sections of the British Public?

That's exactly what I'm telling you.

Look at Nationalist sentiment North of the Border! We're part of the same country yet the English Nationalists don't have a National party when the Scot's have a National parliament and popular Independence movement, is that just an irrelevant fact?

Fuck national liberation movements; fuck nationalism, patriotism, nativism, etc.

There, is that clear enough?

Maybe the English want Independence too?

From fucking what? Like, huh? Are you seriously suggesting that we should entertain the idea of a national liberation movement to free England from England? An independent England separate from England? The fuck?

Per Levy

29th January 2014, 00:08

What does the left have to say about this sense of betrayal British working class people feel, what do we have to say about economic migrants, benefits tourism or radical Islam?

if the betrayal and anger of the british working class is directed at bourgoisie, then there is no problem, if it is directed at other workers, immigrants, minorities than that is a big problem, cause then the british working class is helping the bourgoisie in its devide and conquer stragety. and seriously, not the "economic migrants" are the problem, not the other workers, but the bosses.

You can't tell me these concerns aren't valid amongst large sections of the British Public?

oh im certain they are, these are stupid concerns though, again the bosses are the enemy, not a brown skinned worker who might has a dialect.

Revenant

29th January 2014, 00:29

Per Levy, is this not snobbery to call the working classes who are subjected to the bourgeois media as "stupid" or "big problem" when they inevitably adopt false consciousness in the absence of revolutionary left wing consciousness?

I am not making excuses for the working classes, but they lack a university or political education and the time to be adequately informed, many who do have the time lack the incentive, merely getting irate at the presence of any political figure on the television.

Revenant

29th January 2014, 01:03

Well, I mean, your food is pretty horrible, so there's that. Plus, there is also the issue of, if I was in UK, I'd be just another "pikey parasite." Fuck England.

Dialogue? What would I, have to say to say to a fascist, other than, "fuck off"? Are we somehow, through heavy "talk sessions," going to rectify our diametrically opposed politics? Absolutely not, so what's the point? There is none and I wouldn't be caught dead talking to one unless it was a conversation of how I am going to merge a 2x4 with their face.

This term "fascist" is in very real danger of becoming meaningless through over use, how do you decide that a Nationalist organization, that cites support of human rights and democratic interests in opposition to Shariah law is fascist?

You sound like the one opposed to human rights, diversity and democracy.

Your comparison to the KKK is ridiculous really, there are groups comparable in the UK but your silence on them speaks volumes, the KKK may not have a political platform, but Libertardians, neo-Cons like Mccain in Ukraine and Ron Paulites do, EDL are more Paulite, the ostracization of large swathes of the British working class, deemed stupid, who's concerns are of no interest to "the left" plays into the hands of, actual, prexisting fascist groups in this country.

"Fuck national liberation movements; fuck nationalism, patriotism, nativism, etc. "To fuck them you need to acknowledge they exist first, then unless you're some kind of bizarre flasher/rapist, you will need to get to know them a bit, then you invite them out, after a period of time you win them round, whisper sweet nothings in their ear, then you fuck them.

Maybe the English want Independence too? From fucking what? Like, huh? Are you seriously suggesting that we should entertain the idea of a national liberation movement to free England from England? An independent England separate from England? The fuck? haha, no silly, UK independence from Europe, UKIP is quite popular in some parts of England, it's kind of seen as a "protest vote" against the political establishment.

Revenant

29th January 2014, 01:14

I don't want to hear them speak, I just want them to go away, one way or another.
Fascism;)

GiantMonkeyMan

29th January 2014, 01:25

You have no idea what the EDL are. The EDL are the type of people that, in my local area, attacked a Kurdish shop and beat up the owners whilst their children watched on. They're the type of people who see women walking about with their children and then attack them just because their wearing a hijab. There's a difference between having reactionary, nationalist views (which the EDL do have) and openly attacking an oppressed minority. There's nothing redeemable about that organisation and it should be opposed wherever it or it offshoots manifest.

WilliamGreen

29th January 2014, 01:29

Good on anyone that stands up to racists and bullies, simple as that :)

Sam_b

29th January 2014, 01:39

What does the left have to say about this sense of betrayal British working class people feel, what do we have to say about economic migrants, benefits tourism or radical Islam?

Except the 'British working class' is comprised of Muslims, Sikhs, POC and people from all sorts of ethnic and religious backgrounds. Which makes your point pretty fucking ridiculous. Also the fact that the EDL are a shadow of their former selves and you're talking them up as some sort of mass of workers is disingenuous to say the least.

Your posts do not sit well with me at all. It's pandering and attempting to legitimise the EDL, real talk. You're also making the mistake of equating anti-immigrant sentiment, which is rife in many areas of the country, with an organisation which has been shown to carry out violent, racist attacks. These are two separate things. The EDL is not some sort of vanguard of the 'white' British working class who oppose immigration.

Nakidana

29th January 2014, 02:21

Revenant you're either a confused motherfucker who's been browsing MigrationWatch a bit too frequently recently, or a delusional stromfront troll who thinks he can weed out a little sympathy for white nationalism.

I hope the first is the case, but I have serious doubts.

You want English people to go away?

No, I want EDL to go away.

how do you propose you achieve that, I suggested dialogue, you say fuck that and fuck them. What is your solution?

No dialogue, confront them (and anyone else peddling anti-immigrant filth and hate) on the streets, workplace and public forums.

This is a quote from a facebook group with over 6,000 members:

Oh my, EDL supporters trying to portray themselves as ordinary peaceful citizens who're just worried about what the country is coming to in order to gain support from people put off by their disgusting racist filth. How freaking surprising. Too bad anyone with half a brain knows they're nazi scum:

GIys_vTYyiI

what do we have to say about economic migrants, benefits tourism or radical Islam?

That it's daily mail trash and always has been? The rich have robbed your house but you're busy complaining about a crumb missing from your table?

Do you not think more white working class people, in poor socio economic conditions are drawn towards patriotism, nationalism etc than the left, as an outlet for their frustrations and opposition to the political class?

Depending on how you define the left, no, not really.

The whole point is either group is composed of mere hooligans, or people who care passionately about their cause, whatever way you look at it.

Wait, why is being passionate about your cause a bad thing? :confused:

However much you try to equate the two groups the fact is this: One of those groups of "hooligans" will kick the living shit out of random people based on their skin color. That to most people is worse than, errr, you know, NOT beating up people because of their skin color. Thus EDL is already infinitely worse than UAF.

It's not really rocket science, you should be able to comprehend this. Unless of course you're one of the moronic knuckle-draggers.

One however (the EDL) has no political platform, no political party, no media outlet, or media coverage that answers their particular concerns.

UAF has David Cameron as a founding signatory,

And how does this not make the EDL nazi scum? It's blatantly obvious what their politics are mate, you don't need a freaking statement written down with signatories.

all 3 main parties advance what people who read The Mail consider to be destructive EU, and Immigration policies.

Hah, if people reading the mail think they're destructive immigration policies, then the policies are probably right up my ally!

You can't tell me these concerns aren't valid amongst large sections of the British Public?

They're concerns among sections of the population, yes, but that does not make them valid.

Look at Nationalist sentiment North of the Border! We're part of the same country yet the English Nationalists don't have a National party when the Scot's have a National parliament and popular Independence movement, is that just an irrelevant fact?

Maybe the English want Independence too?

English nationalism? Really? You're out of your mind.

I want to unite the working class, not divide it. Stop reading the daily mail.

Revenant

30th January 2014, 00:27

Except the 'British working class' is comprised of Muslims, Sikhs, POC and people from all sorts of ethnic and religious backgrounds. Which makes your point pretty fucking ridiculous. Also the fact that the EDL are a shadow of their former selves and you're talking them up as some sort of mass of workers is disingenuous to say the least.

Your posts do not sit well with me at all. It's pandering and attempting to legitimise the EDL, real talk. You're also making the mistake of equating anti-immigrant sentiment, which is rife in many areas of the country, with an organisation which has been shown to carry out violent, racist attacks. These are two separate things. The EDL is not some sort of vanguard of the 'white' British working class who oppose immigration.
I know that's what I was saying, there are actual fascist groups who do that, drawing people from groups like the EDL into fascist ideology and a fascist historical narrative, leading eventually to their participation in Fascism, the Edl is like a gateway drug.

So what are you opposing?

Average white working class Brits, who watch the telly, enjoy the footy, read shitty papers, who find an outlet for their dissatisfaction by opposing Islam, which they perceive as encroaching on Western civilization and values, by opposing immigration which they perceive as destructive to their communities and the economy, by supporting the troops and by street protesting against a political bureaucracy they perceive as out of touch with the reality they live in.

So when they end up street protesting because they feel under-represented, then they see groups backed by the political establishment silencing their protest, forcing them underground into revisionist history and conspiracy theories, then they end up exposed to fascist currents.

The fact UKIP are breaking into the political mainstream, as an "actual conservative" political party probably has a bit to do with "the EDL being a shadow of their former self".

Revenant

30th January 2014, 01:04

Revenant you're either a confused motherfucker who's been browsing MigrationWatch a bit too frequently recently, or a delusional stromfront troll who thinks he can weed out a little sympathy for white nationalism.

I hope the first is the case, but I have serious doubts.

What makes you think I'm the confused one?

No, I want EDL to go away.
No dialogue, confront them (and anyone else peddling anti-immigrant filth and hate) on the streets, workplace and public forums.Wouldn't you listen to what they say about Islam, using your obvious opposition to religious ideology to convince them to listen to you as you espouse the superior cultural practice (of socialism) that is the only alternative to reactionary, delusionary religions, the only true method of actualizing the "Human Rights" and "Democracy" they claim to support?

Oh my, EDL supporters trying to portray themselves as ordinary peaceful citizens who're just worried about what the country is coming to in order to gain support from people put off by their disgusting racist filth. How freaking surprising. Too bad anyone with half a brain knows they're nazi scum:
People doing fascist gestures does not a "Nazi" make, are these people in your opinions, "fascists", "nazi scum", working class nationalists, bigots, or victims of false conciousness?

Is your use of Nazi merely a slur applied to something you don't understand and have shown no interest in analyzing?

Wait, why is being passionate about your cause a bad thing? :confused:

However much you try to equate the two groups the fact is this: One of those groups of "hooligans" will kick the living shit out of random people based on their skin color. That to most people is worse than, errr, you know, NOT beating up people because of their skin color. Thus EDL is already infinitely worse than UAF.I think that's an exaggeration every group has a few bad eggs, not every EDL protest ends in violence and in many cases it takes two opposing forces to escalate a situation, one force, the "anti-fascist" force, is an incoherent mass of usually antagonistic elements of society that unite solely to silence protests they deem to be fascist.

They have no coherent message on any of the subjects they don't want the EDL to talk about.

Is all criticism of Islam characterized as "Islamophobia" by the UaF?
■ No to scapegoating of immigrants
■ No to Islamophobia
■ Yes to diversity
Labour Party politicians have been quoted as having admitted they "made mistakes" and that levels were too high, what about talking about failed immigration policies, is that off limits?

Does nobody see the Orwellian contradiction, surely diversity means inclusion so why are some views excluded?

It's not really rocket science, you should be able to comprehend this. Unless of course you're one of the moronic knuckle-draggers.
And how does this not make the EDL nazi scum? It's blatantly obvious what their politics are mate, you don't need a freaking statement written down with signatories.So let's follow this to it's end, EDL encourages it's members to vote for UKIP according to their website, are all UKIP voters also racist Nazi scum?

I see the UaF website characterizes UKIP as racists do you agree with that?

Hah, if people reading the mail think they're destructive immigration policies, then the policies are probably right up my ally!

They're concerns among sections of the population, yes, but that does not make them valid.

English nationalism? Really? You're out of your mind.

I want to unite the working class, not divide it. Stop reading the daily mail.Question, bearing in mind three of the five most popular newspapers in the UK are the Daily Mail, Daily Express and Sun, do you think the working class are more likely to unite to support, the Pro-EU Labour party widely perceived to be out of touch with it's traditional base, or some populist right wing, "anti-political establishment" alternative like UKIP?

As somebody on the left I guess you are planning to unite the working class in opposition to UKIP? Did you read Owen Jones' article about how much him and UKIP have in common?

Sam_b

30th January 2014, 01:26

I know that's what I was saying

No, it's fucking not what you're saying; and the fact you've quoted the post entirely goes to prove the point. You generalise about the nature of the 'British working class' (first it's just that, now they're 'average white workers' whatever the fuck that lazy generalisation means).

there are actual fascist groups who do that, drawing people from groups like the EDL into fascist ideology and a fascist historical narrative, leading eventually to their participation in Fascism, the Edl is like a gateway drug.

The fuck are you on about guy - the EDL does this shit. The fact that you say the EDL draws in people to organisations that assault and intimidate POC should be enough to oppose and not excuse away them, rather than you pandering to them as if they have some sort of point. But there are pages upon pages of evidence of the EDL carrying out racist, xenophobic actions on POC and others. This is 'not what you've been saying' in the slightest.

Average white working class Brits, who watch the telly, enjoy the footy, read shitty papers, who find an outlet for their dissatisfaction by opposing Islam, which they perceive as encroaching on Western civilization and values, by opposing immigration which they perceive as destructive to their communities and the economy, by supporting the troops and by street protesting against a political bureaucracy they perceive as out of touch with the reality they live in.

So apparently the "white British working class" all oppose immigration now? It says a lot you won't back up the assertion with facts.

So when they end up street protesting because they feel under-represented, then they see groups backed by the political establishment silencing their protest, forcing them underground into revisionist history and conspiracy theories, then they end up exposed to fascist currents.

The EDL is a fascist current. Jesus.

Revenant

30th January 2014, 01:49

No, it's fucking not what you're saying; and the fact you've quoted the post entirely goes to prove the point. You generalise about the nature of the 'British working class' (first it's just that, now they're 'average white workers' whatever the fuck that lazy generalisation means).
No it definitely is what I have been saying all along, EDL are one of the few outlets of Nationalist sentiment, patriotism that aren't underground fascist or extremist, or are you going to tell me what I'm saying like you tell the EDL what they are, do and say?

Because you think something doesn't make it so, many people join the EDL because patriotism speaks to their concerns, not because they are adherents to the philosophy and doctrine of fascism.

The fuck are you on about guy - the EDL does this shit. The fact that you say the EDL draws in people to organisations that assault and intimidate POC should be enough to oppose and not excuse away them, rather than you pandering to them as if they have some sort of point. But there are pages upon pages of evidence of the EDL carrying out racist, xenophobic actions on POC and others. This is 'not what you've been saying' in the slightest.You like the word pander don't you, do you think the method employed by UaF type groups, ie to impede their freedom of expression, movement, protest etc is effective or do you think it heightens tensions between the "british working class"?

Do you think if you just boo and shout at people to shut them up they will reassess their views or become even more resolute seeing UaF are supported by the Political establishment?:laugh:

So apparently the "white British working class" all oppose immigration now? It says a lot you won't back up the assertion with facts. I'll repost it in context for you:

the Edl is like a gateway drug.

So what are you opposing?

Average white working class Brits, who watch the telly, enjoy the footy, read shitty papers, who find an outlet for their dissatisfaction by opposing Islam, which they perceive as encroaching on Western civilization and values, by opposing immigration which they perceive as destructive to their communities and the economy, by supporting the troops and by street protesting against a political bureaucracy they perceive as out of touch with the reality they live in.Maybe I'm wrong.

The EDL is a fascist current. Jesus.The obstinacy with which you retain this view to me signifies slightly fascist tendencies.

It's like when the bourgeois media calls peaceful protestors "violent radicals" because a few people chuck things off a roof or smash the shit out of posh shops.

A violent nationalist organization i'm willing to accept they are, but tbh I've seen no evidence the EDL are a fascist group, violent opposition with support from the establishment will push them towards fascism imo.

Tenka

30th January 2014, 15:09

The obstinacy with which you retain this view to me signifies slightly fascist tendencies.

It's like when the bourgeois media calls peaceful protestors "violent radicals" because a few people chuck things off a roof or smash the shit out of posh shops.

A violent nationalist organization i'm willing to accept they are, but tbh I've seen no evidence the EDL are a fascist group, violent opposition with support from the establishment will push them towards fascism imo.

I think you are intentionally ignoring the way people presently use the word "fascism" (to mean violent nationalism, to be actually fairly specific in today's context) just so you can be a nuisance. Yes, Fascism is a specific thing involving class collaborationism; that is not how it's popularly used, and that does not mean class collaboration against nazi scum equals fascism in the little-known true sense just because it involves collaboration of classes.

I don't put it past the bourgeoisie, of course, to equate lefties to nazis because some of the former broke some windows or whatever--in fact they have done that at times--but that doesn't mean shit really. White workers who sympathise with the EDL have real concerns, and that means we should be fine with their giving into racist fervour, OR somehow tweak our rabid leftie rhetoric to address them on their terms (like that isn't done already)? I'm not sure what you're trying to say other than that "UAF r the real fascists 'cause class collaboration, etc." (which, I'm sure you know, is the main drive in popular racist rhetoric--class collaborationism against the dreaded foreigners or people who don't look like us).

human strike

31st January 2014, 05:42

Let's ignore Revenant's stupid shit and go back to talking about the state of the EDL nationally and locally and the opposition to it.

EDL split in Bristol, from their Facebook page:

"STATEMENT FROM BRISTOL DEFENCE LEAGUE....
We have been called disloyal and back stabbers i would say wobble your heads a bit and take in who's actually gone over to BDL.That's right people who have been with the edl for 3 or 4 years.people who have travelled all over this country to demos supporting other divisions in their fight against muslim extremism.People who have lost their freedom people who have supported our troops exposed muslim grooming gangs taken on the council against the building of new mosques protested against hahlal in our schools.people who have been in the front line when it's kicked off watching each others backs.people who are total and loyal patriots.How do they get treated by edl ?with total contempt.
Let''s start with the Bristol demo where they came in and took over. In the carpark people arriving were bombarded by missles from the uaf who were allowed on the road above us.We were then ushered down a back street and on departure we were searched and let out two at a time while the uaf bayed for our blood from the pub opposite.Great organisation.
The south west r.o.s who ran the s.w from their boys club telling everyone what they could and couldn't do and anyone defying them or showing an ounce of initiative were stomped on and dispatched.The r.o. who was reported for bullying members and bullying four women who wrote statements discribing his abuse but were ignored.The same r.o. who got drunk on every demo and then wanted to fight fight fellow edl members.The same r.o. who has been grooming Paul Bradley for the last two months and corrupting his mind with visions of power and glory.
This is the Paul Bradley who posted the venue a of a meeting on f.b,the one who has been plotting and colluding with above r.o. behind everyones backs.The one who on the mosque demo didn't meet in the pub with the rest to go together but arrived an hour early at the demo point and managed not to get his head kicked in.The same person who in the middle of the demo walked through police lines to shake hands with the leader of the uaf and thank him for a peaceful demo.The same paul Bradley who ran crying to managment that he'd been threatened when he showed disrespect to several members.Don't be fooled by this person the people who have stayed with him have only done so because they've just bought their hoodies....duh.
So to Tommy who called us uneducated council estate right wing extremists,so to the ludicrus statement put out by managment last week which is now aparently being blamed on the approval of all r.o.s. The edl has become a joke.Don't get us wrong WE ARE TRUE EDL PEOPLE AT HEART THE PROBLEM BEING THE EDL IS NOT THE EDL ANYMORE.It's a joke.
Bristol has been a rouge division for over a year we just refused to listen to them and got on with what we are here for to fight, muslim extremism,in the end and we grew bigger and stronger for it.So what does managment do?use back handed tactics to corrupt young members and destroy the division.Well you haven't,they will learn and we will go where we want and do what we want.We stand with all the good people who have left the edl for similar reasons.
WE ARE BRISTOL AND WE WILL DEFEND OUR COUNTRY..WE DON'T SURRENDER TO ANYONE.

Note that EDL typically use "UAF" as a blanket term for all anti-fascists. There are two references to militant action taken against them at their demo in Bristol in 2012, but these in fact were not carried out by UAF at all. Some people were branded as "squadists" by swappies and UAF for supporting that action. I don't know anything about this alleged hand-shaking incident from their latest demo.

Nakidana

31st January 2014, 15:40

I'm not sure what you're trying to say other than that "UAF r the real fascists

This is why I'm very suspicious of Revenant. Claiming that anti-fascists are the real fascists (or that anti-racism is the real racism) is typical far-right rhetoric.

Revenant

31st January 2014, 21:02

To be honest I prefer Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens, but since we're here to idolize the working classes I thought I would state what I thought about the EDL.

That they are one of the few non-facist or neo-nazi organizations representing actual people's opinions in this country towards Islam, Immigration, the EU and UK Sovereignty.

UKIP are far more aristocratic, yet because they are "willing to let people have a voice on Europe" and echo false consciousness propagated in the media to dupe the working classes, despite having pro-aristocratic, pro-millionaire reforms, we see the working classes are reported to vote for them.

On a superficial level what UAF groups do is fascist, their only purpose is to silence the only working class outlet of nationalism/patriotism available to people, to be objective about the EDL, the things about England they highlight, ie Democracy, our well established concepts of Rights, which rightly are in contradiction to Theocracy and our support of international exchange, though there may have been an Imperialist tendency there has also always been an anti-Imperialist tendency.

People of the UK are literally brought up to respect the country, it's monarchy and institutions so why call them racist, when under the pressures we all experience they react in a way that only demonstrates they haven't been exposed to communist or socialist literature, propaganda or philosophy.

Would you accept the UK has done great things, mainly the working class has been the driving force of this, but also that the last fifty years have been a story of how evil communism and the working class "actually is" (supposed to be)?

I know intelligent people, who've worked in high positions of influence, who's only reference point (many know nothing at all) for communism is how evel Pol Pot, Mao or Stalin were,, I admire the latter two's philosophical contributions however, transfer the word communist for liberalism/spirituality/open mindedness and these individuals are basically good people who aspire to something better than a world system based on exploitation, of land, animals, people etc.

A couple of generations have grown up with a bourgeois state, televised conception of what they are and what history was.

Look at print and news media and what's popular, even the internet is drowned by celebrity culture or memes, (the socialist memes are good though) people who don't go to University or college don't get exposed to communism or actual history, how advanced their sense of passion in opposition appears to you, reflects the absence of any attempt by the Labour Party directly appeal to the sentiments of the working class ie suggesting to raise the millionaire tax rate to 70p to help finance public regeneration works and training for every unemployed person.

Sperm-Doll Setsuna

31st January 2014, 21:13

Revenant

31st January 2014, 21:41

clearly the story of the development of humanity to a general level of well being, but that's besides the point, it's very disingenuous to quote only half of my post, it highlights the kind of behaviour I am speaking about, akin to censorship or revisionism.

People may well reject the validity of the EDL's arguments, I have never seen anybody attempt to do so respectfully on any occasion, disagreement with somebodies opinion is no justification for violently opposing them.

If you try re-reading you may come up with a more constructive criticism or debate some of the facts I mentioned, that the EDL and UKIP are two sides of the same coin, the working class EDL and middle class and aristocratic UKIP, are expressions of genuine concerns poorly or ideologically educated individuals hold, that have arisen in part because of the absence of a Left wing.

I sometimes perceive opposition to the EDL as snobbery or elitism, they aren't even given the honour of a rigorous debunking, people just think they can shout and shout and alienate what is actually a "pan-european" tendency of "Islamophobia" further towards extremism.

Revenant

31st January 2014, 21:52

Anti-Semitism is actually more prevalent amongst the Fascists who often find their ideology completely compatible with Islamic resistance to modernization, democracy or liberalization, Buddhism and Indo-Aryan, Celtic, or Norse offshoots also are compatible completely to actual fascism in Britain, which is long and well established and based not on "human rights" or "democracy" but "ancient pagan rites, and priestly hierarchic castes".

The post above by Whatever Singularity is a good one, if you follow the recent disintegration of the EDL you will see these radical groups are apparently opposed fundamentally to "Zionism", and the EDL leaderships suppport of Israel and also the moderate approach of the EDL.

Eventually people will get sick of being ganged up on and silenced, not taken seriously but violently dismissed, being outnumbered and outflanked, and they will turn to lone wolf extremism, also a long established trend within actual fascist ideology.

This is clearly a bad thing that people are leaving the EDL, to more violently impose their will against the state and immigrant community. What do you think WS of the EDL's public denunciation of White separatism, Neo-Nazis and Anti-Semitism?

Nakidana

1st February 2014, 09:23

What makes you think I'm the confused one?

I didn't say I thought it, I said I hoped it. Tbh, based on your rhetoric I'm leaning the other way atm.

Wouldn't you listen to what they say about Islam

No, because what they say about Islam is bullocks. It's really just an easy way to hate brown people without blatantly exposing yourself. Fortunately this thinly veiled racism isn't really kidding anyone, apart from you maybe.

using your obvious opposition to religious ideology to convince them to listen to you as you espouse the superior cultural practice (of socialism) that is the only alternative to reactionary, delusionary religions, the only true method of actualizing the "Human Rights" and "Democracy" they claim to support?

No, I wouldn't waste time talking to these neo-Nazis. I don't spend time trying to convert policemen to my viewpoint either.

People doing fascist gestures does not a "Nazi" make

Well it's a pretty fucking high on the "stupid shit Nazis do" list, don't you think? :rolleyes:

Today the Nazi salute is solely associated with Nazism, obviously people performing it do it to display their allegiance to said ideology.

, are these people in your opinions, "fascists", "nazi scum", working class nationalists, bigots, or victims of false conciousness?

All of the above.

Is your use of Nazi merely a slur applied to something you don't understand and have shown no interest in analyzing?

No, it's just a fact that the EDL contains neo-Nazis. If it bothers you so much we could also agree to call them far-right nutcases.

I think that's an exaggeration every group has a few bad eggs,

No, the EDL is all bad eggs.

not every EDL protest ends in violence and in many cases it takes two opposing forces to escalate a situation, one force, the "anti-fascist" force, is an incoherent mass of usually antagonistic elements of society that unite solely to silence protests they deem to be fascist.

You don't seem to understand; I don't want the EDL to protest. I don't want them marching up and down the street propagandizing their perverse views. I want them to be silenced. This would be the case even if they weren't violent.

They have no coherent message on any of the subjects they don't want the EDL to talk about.

Is all criticism of Islam characterized as "Islamophobia" by the UaF?
■ No to scapegoating of immigrants
■ No to Islamophobia
■ Yes to diversity

No, not all criticism of Islam is characterized as Islamophobia by the UAF. The three points you listed sound perfectly coherent and agreeable to me. I don't see what your problem is.

Labour Party politicians have been quoted as having admitted they "made mistakes" and that levels were too high, what about talking about failed immigration policies, is that off limits?

No, obviously not as you don't have UAF protesting those politicians. Not that there would be anything wrong with such protests, seeing as how such admissions are just stupid anti-immigration bullshit, espoused in an attempt to pander to racist segments of the population and win votes.

Does nobody see the Orwellian contradiction, surely diversity means inclusion so why are some views excluded?

Because the presence of those views limit diversity. If we want to achieve a truly diverse society, those views need to be combated.

So let's follow this to it's end, EDL encourages it's members to vote for UKIP according to their website, are all UKIP voters also racist Nazi scum?

Nope, but most of them probably vote for Ukip because racism. If the EDL encourages something that something is very likely to be wrong.

I see the UaF website characterizes UKIP as racists do you agree with that?

Yes.

Question, bearing in mind three of the five most popular newspapers in the UK are the Daily Mail, Daily Express and Sun, do you think the working class are more likely to unite to support, the Pro-EU Labour party widely perceived to be out of touch with it's traditional base, or some populist right wing, "anti-political establishment" alternative like UKIP?

Labour.

As somebody on the left I guess you are planning to unite the working class in opposition to UKIP? Did you read Owen Jones' article about how much him and UKIP have in common?

Nope, but I assume you're referring to this (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/an-open-letter-from-owen-jones-to-ukip-voters-9061968.html)? In that article he's not saying he and Ukip have a lot in common, he's saying he and Ukip voters have a lot in common. He argues that the Ukip leadership is actually working against the interests of their working class voters, which is of course completely true.

Anyway, just because they're working class it does not mean their concerns about immigration are valid.

Revenant

1st February 2014, 11:03

I don't necessarily disagree with everything you've said, I just feel things are a lot more nuanced than you appear to believe.

Working class voters and the 'progressive' left: a widening chasm

The triumph of identity politics means too many progressives appear willing to dismiss the white working class as socially backwards and not worth listening to.article (http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/08/working-class-voters-and-progressive-left-widening-chasm)

Revenant

1st February 2014, 11:30

We are Marxists, and Marxism teaches that in our approach to a problem we should start from objective facts, not from abstract definitions, and that we should derive our guiding principles, policies and measures from an analysis of these facts. It's not an objective fact that the EDL are German National Socialists, advocating eugenics programs or "ghettoization" of immigrant communities, in fact there are numerous examples of them publically advocating more integration, from their website:

We don’t want a society in which different communities live apart and there become parts of this country where you can’t walk down the street. And although we’re accepting of people from any number of different cultural backgrounds, we don’t want these cultural traditions to be preserved when they’re at odds with our own culture.

Barbaric practices such as honour-killings or female genital mutilation, for example, can’t be allowed to take root in Britain. We should also be free to assert the supremacy of British law in any cases where individual rights and freedoms are challenged by the cultural practices of any immigrant communities.

This is not a demanding standard, and should form the foundations of any successful approach to ensuring integration. As the government paper proudly asserts, “[t]he overwhelming majority of us believe in treating people fairly and with respect, no matter what their background”.This will be another reason they are opposed by actual fascist, white separatist and neo-nazi groups, because they speak about greater integration, not deportation.

Nakidana

1st February 2014, 14:00

It's not an objective fact that the EDL are German National Socialists, advocating eugenics programs or "ghettoization" of immigrant communities,

No, but it's an objective fact that they have members who are neo-Nazis.

in fact there are numerous examples of them publically advocating more integration, from their website:

Integration is just a fancy word for making immigrants jump through silly hoops that people who were born in the country never had to. Second, what they're actually advocating in that piece of trash you posted is that "our culture" (whatever the hell that is) always takes precedence over immigrant culture. This is a completely moronic and bigoted viewpoint that only serves to belittle immigrants.

This will be another reason they are opposed by actual fascist, white separatist and neo-nazi groups, because they speak about greater integration, not deportation.

The only reason they don't speak about deportation etc is because they're trying to appeal to more people by distancing themselves from the "racist" and/or "fascist" label they've quite deservedly received. If they could get away with it they'd definitely go all the way.

Of course this results in them being scorned by the uncompromising principled sections of the far-right (I guess in the same way we scorn social democrats). Regardless, this whole charade does not in any way make the EDL more acceptable.

Anti-Traditional

1st February 2014, 14:42

That they are one of the few non-facist or neo-nazi organizations representing actual people's opinions in this country towards Islam, Immigration, the EU and UK Sovereignty.

Really? I've ran through all the people I see on a regular basis and I can only think of two who would have any sympathy with the EDL.

On a superficial level what UAF groups do is fascist, their only purpose is to silence the only working class outlet of nationalism/patriotism available to people

Wanting to silence a group isn't fascist. Fascism isn't just a word to describe political coercion. It is a nationalist ideology which demands obedience to an authoritarian state and usually arises in opposition to the militant working class.

I know intelligent people, who've worked in high positions of influence, who's only reference point (many know nothing at all) for communism is how evel Pol Pot, Mao or Stalin were,, I admire the latter two's philosophical contributions however, transfer the word communist for liberalism/spirituality/open mindedness and these individuals are basically good people who aspire to something better than a world system based on exploitation, of land, animals, people etc.

They were pretty damn evil.

PhoenixAsh

1st February 2014, 15:31

but since we're here to idolize the working classes

We are not here to idolize the working class. Where the hell did you get that idea? We are here to create class consciousness in the working class in order to create a classless society. This does not mean we pander to parts of the working class when they develop ideas and ideologies which are contrary to this goal.

The fears and concerns you say the "white" working class has and expresses through organisations as the EDL are based within the nature of capitalism where the bourgeoisie specifically creates and exploits fear of and division between groups.

The EDL is a willing tool as well as an accelerator that exploits and furthers this goal.
As such there is no negotiation or debate with the EDL. The organisation is a class enemy working with the system. They do not only act as a channel for false class consciousness but they actively promote this false consciousness by pitting workers against each other.

EDL leadership in the past has stated they do not wish to form a political party because (and I quote) "we know who our masters are and we just want them to do their job". This is tantamount to class collaboration.

They do so under the guise of combating radical islam but in reality target specific ethnic groups by false generalizations. Which is the definition of racism.

The EDL is therefore thoroughly reactionary, racist and large parts of the EDL are fascists pur sang. Maybe not in the traditional definition of the term but definitely in their expression, politics and tactics.

The EDL is not opposed by neo-nazi's and fascist groups. Only when those groups member base are threatened is that the case. In fact a large portion of the EDL members are drawn from fascist and neo-nazi groups and parties. Not to mention the fact that foreign neo nazi groups and fascist participate in EDL demo's and actions.

We however do not give a platform for fascists and racists....not even when they are composed of members of the working class. They need to be rooted out like the poisonous weed they are not debated with so they can spew more of their poison.

The discourse we do have is with everybody outside such groups. That is who we will talk to and whose issues we will address.

We also do not say yes to diversity to include just any ideology and belief or nationalistic sentiment. We very specifically exclude groups, ideologies and sentiments. Especially those who actively oppose the creation of class consciousness and oppose the abandonment of capitalism. Diversity means that everybody is not the same...not that all ideologies should be accepted and tolerated.

Your defense of the EDL is spurious and misguided as the most optimistic interpretation of your motives to do so.

Revenant

2nd February 2014, 02:29

No, but it's an objective fact that they have members who are neo-Nazis.

Integration is just a fancy word for making immigrants jump through silly hoops that people who were born in the country never had to. Second, what they're actually advocating in that piece of trash you posted is that "our culture" (whatever the hell that is) always takes precedence over immigrant culture. This is a completely moronic and bigoted viewpoint that only serves to belittle immigrants.

The only reason they don't speak about deportation etc is because they're trying to appeal to more people by distancing themselves from the "racist" and/or "fascist" label they've quite deservedly received. If they could get away with it they'd definitely go all the way.

Of course this results in them being scorned by the uncompromising principled sections of the far-right (I guess in the same way we scorn social democrats). Regardless, this whole charade does not in any way make the EDL more acceptable.
You are selectively highlighting facts to suit your purpose, by focusing on the "extremist" elements, attracted to an organization that engages in public demonstrations and community organizing, you are doing exactly what the media does when they tarnish "anti-cuts" protesters, by focusing on the masked vandals who smash up people's businesses.

The majority of EDL members are not Neo-Nazi's, the Neo-Nazi's as mentioned make propaganda posters calling the EDL the JDL, and are thoroughly anti-semitic and underground, but they probably recruit people from the EDL, former members of the EDL have also been removed for Nazism, Tommy Robinson has also publically denounced Racism, Fascism and Nazism.

Many of these groups have much more developed ideological systems than the EDL, who are basically a one issue organization highlighting an absence of political/public discourse about Immigration and Islam.

I think people who move to the UK from undeveloped economies are also, if not more susceptible to ideological manipulation.

What do you think of Tommy Robinson's current endeavours with the Quilliam foundation, are you equally as cynical about his motivations for that side of his involvement in opposition to Islam as you are about the EDL and people who join it?

Per Levy

2nd February 2014, 11:35

No it definitely is what I have been saying all along, EDL are one of the few outlets of Nationalist sentiment, patriotism that aren't underground fascist or extremist, or are you going to tell me what I'm saying like you tell the EDL what they are, do and say?

and where do you got this lovely idea about what the edl is? from their website? everytime i see a video of a edl demonstration i see nazi salutes and hear tons of "pakis" wich acording to you isnt racist since the edl is only patriotic and not "extremist"

Because you think something doesn't make it so, many people join the EDL because patriotism speaks to their concerns, not because they are adherents to the philosophy and doctrine of fascism.

you do realize that tommy robinson(a former nazi himself) left the edl because it was filled with nazis and racists, right?

The obstinacy with which you retain this view to me signifies slightly fascist tendencies.

you have no idea what fascism is, obviously.

A violent nationalist organization i'm willing to accept they are, but tbh I've seen no evidence the EDL are a fascist group, violent opposition with support from the establishment will push them towards fascism imo.

if i recall the reason tommy robinson gave to why he left the eld is that the edl was filled with "dangerous, extreme right wingers". yeah nothing fascist about that.

but since we're here to idolize the working classes

you're not working class are you? or otherwise your wouldnt utter such nonsense, there is nothing to be idolized about the working class, we have often times shit lifes, shit jobs, low pay, neither politcal or economic power, we're opressed, shat on, getting devided and what not. there is nothing great about being working class. what we want is to end the class system and that means to abolish the working class as well.

Nakidana

2nd February 2014, 14:26

You are selectively highlighting facts to suit your purpose, by focusing on the "extremist" elements,

Listen, I don't care which part of the EDL we focus on, they'll still be reactionary shitbags. If you participate in an EDL protest you are reactionary, it doesn't matter if you're peaceful or not, if you perform Nazi salutes or not, if you scream paki or not. The purpose of these protests is quite clear.

I mean for christ sake man who do you think you're kidding? In a matter of seconds anyone can go to YouTube, type in "EDL demonstration" and see what kind of people we're dealing with here.

-6_D9J685CQ

attracted to an organization that engages in public demonstrations and community organizing,

Participating in public demonstrations and community organizing does not automatically make your organization progressive.

you are doing exactly what the media does when they tarnish "anti-cuts" protesters, by focusing on the masked vandals who smash up people's businesses.

As mentioned, all EDL people are idiots, but the fact of the matter is that a huge part of the EDL are extreme right wingers.

The majority of EDL members are not Neo-Nazi's, the Neo-Nazi's as mentioned make propaganda posters calling the EDL the JDL, and are thoroughly anti-semitic and underground, but they probably recruit people from the EDL, former members of the EDL have also been removed for Nazism, Tommy Robinson has also publically denounced Racism, Fascism and Nazism.

Per Levy addressed part of this, but I'll just mention that even if you remove all the Nazi elements from EDL, it will still be a reactionary and racist far-right movement. Politically I have nothing whatsoever in common with them.

Many of these groups have much more developed ideological systems than the EDL, who are basically a one issue organization highlighting an absence of political/public discourse about Immigration and Islam.

First of all I disagree that that's the purpose of the EDL. Second even if that was the purpose, it's racist hogwash because there is no "absence of discourse about immigration and Islam". In fact the current discourse in mainstream media is both anti-immigrant and islamophobic.

I think people who move to the UK from undeveloped economies are also, if not more susceptible to ideological manipulation.

That's cute, "immigrants are more susceptible to ideological manipulation" says the guy who takes EDL propaganda at face value.

What do you think of Tommy Robinson's current endeavours with the Quilliam foundation, are you equally as cynical about his motivations for that side of his involvement in opposition to Islam as you are about the EDL and people who join it?

Of course, considering the idiot's past who the hell could take it seriously (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/08/tommy-robinson-quits-edl-twitter_n_4062120.html)? Just eight hours before he left the EDL, he had been spewing (https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/387505624444985344/photo/1) the same old EDL trash. Also, it's typical (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/13/tommy-robinson-english-defence-league-far-right)for far-right personalities and movements to reinvent themselves in order to gain a public following.

Revenant

2nd February 2014, 14:30

We are not here to idolize the working class. Where the hell did you get that idea? We are here to create class consciousness in the working class in order to create a classless society. This does not mean we pander to parts of the working class when they develop ideas and ideologies which are contrary to this goal.
No it seems you violently oppose them, actively try to silence them, and dismiss their concerns about Islam and Immigration as delusions.

Also it seems you attempt to force them to conform, to the laws implemented by the Bourgeois state to quash dissent against open borders that only serve to benefit the capitalist class, with some minor benefits for anybody coming from an underdeveloped economy.

The fears and concerns you say the "white" working class has and expresses through organisations as the EDL are based within the nature of capitalism where the bourgeoisie specifically creates and exploits fear of and division between groups.
The EDL is a willing tool as well as an accelerator that exploits and furthers this goal.
As such there is no negotiation or debate with the EDL. The organisation is a class enemy working with the system. They do not only act as a channel for false class consciousness but they actively promote this false consciousness by pitting workers against each other. You say the Bourgeoisie specifically creates and exploits divisions, would you agree that one way they've done this is by opening up the borders and exploiting cheap immigrant labour?

Do you think unchecked, unregulated immigration is a good thing for a disintegrating capitalist economy, why do you support that? How do you think diversifying and increasing cultural divisions within the working class benefits the working class?

When I worked in the factories around Gatwick Airport it was like a micro-United Nations, in my experience the fewest antagonisms existed between English workers and immigrants and the more pronounced divisions, prejudices even, existed amongst immigrants from opposed nations, religious ideologies or cultures. I could recount to you a number of anecdotes highlighting the incompatibility of some forms of Religious ideology, that exist in 21st century Britain only because of the decisions of a political class, that is alienated from it's citizens and growing more so all the time.

Why the fuck are people like Anjem Choudry allowed into this country to try and institute Shariah Law, promote fascist ideology, decry freedom of speech and spit upon our (and his own) democratic rights?

Is the real division amongst the working classes created by this broad, ill defined, rag tag group that affiliates itself with opposition to what it calls fascism, yet uses fascist tactics to enforce will of the political classes against the "white" British working class, dissenting against their freedom of assembly and expression?

Is this not the latest attempt to thoroughly demoralize and destroy the working classes, after 40 years of succeeding in that very task?

Revenant

2nd February 2014, 14:47

They do so under the guise of combating radical islam but in reality target specific ethnic groups by false generalizations. Which is the definition of racism.

The EDL is therefore thoroughly reactionary, racist and large parts of the EDL are fascists pur sang. Maybe not in the traditional definition of the term but definitely in their expression, politics and tactics.

The EDL is not opposed by neo-nazi's and fascist groups. Only when those groups member base are threatened is that the case. In fact a large portion of the EDL members are drawn from fascist and neo-nazi groups and parties. Not to mention the fact that foreign neo nazi groups and fascist participate in EDL demo's and actions.

We however do not give a platform for fascists and racists....not even when they are composed of members of the working class. They need to be rooted out like the poisonous weed they are not debated with so they can spew more of their poison.

The discourse we do have is with everybody outside such groups. That is who we will talk to and whose issues we will address.

We also do not say yes to diversity to include just any ideology and belief or nationalistic sentiment. We very specifically exclude groups, ideologies and sentiments. Especially those who actively oppose the creation of class consciousness and oppose the abandonment of capitalism. Diversity means that everybody is not the same...not that all ideologies should be accepted and tolerated.

Your defense of the EDL is spurious and misguided as the most optimistic interpretation of your motives to do so.

My motives are merely the investigation of what I consider to be reified conceptions applied to a subsection of society, who another more conformist section of society vehemently disagree with but never try to disprove.

Seriously people just gang up on the EDL and throw things at them, including hypostatized ideas about who or what they are.

I'd also like to know more about this UaF and Antifa group, are they really that diverse or are they populated by left wing university students and muslims exclusively?

Are there some misguided people who support these counter demonstrations, saying they are standing up for freedom of speech and diversity, by attempting to silence and eradicate a group exercising their freedom of speech?

I honestly don't think you have a clue about Fascism in this country, Anjem Choudry is closer to a fascist than Tommy Robinson, do the "Anti-Fascist" brigades stand outside his mosque and protest him?

Why not?

Revenant

2nd February 2014, 15:16

Listen, I don't care which part of the EDL we focus on, they'll still be reactionary shitbags. If you participate in an EDL protest you are reactionary, it doesn't matter if you're peaceful or not, if you perform Nazi salutes or not, if you scream paki or not. The purpose of these protests is quite clear.

I mean for christ sake man who do you think you're kidding? In a matter of seconds anyone can go to YouTube, type in "EDL demonstration" and see what kind of people we're dealing with here.

-6_D9J685CQ
Do you think going to youtube and typing in "EDL demonstration" constitutes a thorough analysis of the organization and it's elements?

That just appears to be anti-White working class propaganda and could have been manufactured by anybody..I've asked you fairly respectfully whether you have any clue about the EDL or Fascism and constantly you have responded in the double negative.

Participating in public demonstrations and community organizing does not automatically make your organization progressive.Protesting against harbouring reactionary ideological views that are incompatible to the 21st century is progressive, protesting against Islam and Shariah Law is progressive, protesting in favour of democracy and human rights is progressive, and attempting to redefine what "Patriotism" is, as they do on their official website, highlighting human rights, democracy and pluralism are progressive things.

I don't think the EDL necessarily espouse a Monarchist/aristocratic or bourgeois conception of patriotism, but a democratic one, I think they are actually quite transparent about this all, way more transparant than actual fascist, Neo Nazi or WS groups are.

I don't think the EDL is a trojan horse, but it could have been coopted, which is actually why Tommy Robinson left it, you misrepresent the situation again, maybe you feel you are at war against "fascism" and that I might be the enemy, well rest assured I am not.

As mentioned, all EDL people are idiots, but the fact of the matter is that a huge part of the EDL are extreme right wingers.Most the working class in europe are "idiots" then, because many of them harbour "reactionary" ideas about the EU.

Per Levy addressed part of this, but I'll just mention that even if you remove all the Nazi elements from EDL, it will still be a reactionary and racist far-right movement. Politically I have nothing whatsoever in common with them.In what way is it racist to oppose a religious ideology, and to espouse common sense when it comes to immigration, it's almost like you wilfully deny there are instances of deeply reactionary religious practices amongst immigrant communities, when in reality even many ex muslims, and current muslims working against extremism confirm many of the things Tommy Robinson says.
Would you say you have more in common with Nick Clegg than the EDL on the specific questions of Immigration, EU membership and Islam?

First of all I disagree that that's the purpose of the EDL. Second even if that was the purpose, it's racist hogwash because there is no "absence of discourse about immigration and Islam". In fact the current discourse in mainstream media is both anti-immigrant and islamophobic.The media plays on the absence of political discourse, the reluctance of politicians to cause disharmony in the coalition by bringing up a fundamental point of disagreement for liberals and conservatives, we are so alienated from the political class it can easily be portrayed that all 3 main parties are part of a liberal conspiracy to betray Britain, that's the Daily mail and Express' angle, it's also UKIP's angle, they gain prominence playing on this fact and more accurately reflect Hitler's Nazi party in that they are superficially populist and pro-democracy, but ideologically much more aristocratic.

That's cute, "immigrants are more susceptible to ideological manipulation" says the guy who takes EDL propaganda at face value.I refuse to believe the EDL's manifesto and mission statement, coverage and news that i've read so far is "propaganda", sorry, what I've seen from you are the use of trigger words, accusations, slurs and propaganda to substantiate your position of opposition to "fascism".

Of course, considering the idiot's past who the hell could take it seriously (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/10/08/tommy-robinson-quits-edl-twitter_n_4062120.html)? Just eight hours before he left the EDL, he had been spewing (https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/387505624444985344/photo/1) the same old EDL trash. Also, it's typical (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/oct/13/tommy-robinson-english-defence-league-far-right)for far-right personalities and movements to reinvent themselves in order to gain a public following.I think they are just typical working class people, I think prison for any amount of time does "reinvent" a person, it makes you think deeply about life and the things you value, what you care about and you get used to thinking about the future and immediacy of our problems.

Prison can make somebody a better person or it can make them worse, Tommy's trajectory since coming out of prison tells me you are wrong, but you may be proven right, the Nazi influences may take over, as mentioned earlier in this thread there are already various offshoot groups, "infidels" and small "defense leagues", who parrot the BNP by referring to the EDL as the JDL and suggest Tommy and his cousin are Zionists.

Nakidana

2nd February 2014, 18:29

Do you think going to youtube and typing in "EDL demonstration" constitutes a thorough analysis of the organization and it's elements?

No, but I think it makes the far-right nature of the EDL pretty obvious.

That just appears to be anti-White working class propaganda and could have been manufactured by anybody..

It's a Guardian piece you moron.

I've asked you fairly respectfully whether you have any clue about the EDL or Fascism and constantly you have responded in the double negative.

Yes. There, you happy now?

Protesting against harbouring reactionary ideological views that are incompatible to the 21st century is progressive, protesting against Islam and Shariah Law is progressive,

No, it's not. Islam isn't taking over, Sharia Law isn't taking over, there is no reason to stage racist protests in Muslim communities in the UK, unless you're an islamophobic fool who really just wants to scream at brown people.

protesting in favour of democracy and human rights is progressive, and attempting to redefine what "Patriotism" is, as they do on their official website, highlighting human rights, democracy and pluralism are progressive things.

That's not what the EDL does though. In their official statements they might proclaim it, but when you look at their actual protests it's obvious that it's all about hating Muslims.

I don't think the EDL necessarily espouse a Monarchist/aristocratic or bourgeois conception of patriotism, but a democratic one, I think they are actually quite transparent about this all, way more transparant than actual fascist, Neo Nazi or WS groups are.

What the hell is a "democratic conception of patriotism"? Oh and the EDL supports the monarchy, looking forward to see you wiggle yourself out of that one (I've no doubt you'll try, seeing as how you earlier tried to excuse their Nazi salutes).

you misrepresent the situation again, maybe you feel you are at war against "fascism" and that I might be the enemy, well rest assured I am not.

I won't rest assured. If you support the EDL you are the enemy. I'm actually surprised you haven't been restricted yet.

Most the working class in europe are "idiots" then, because many of them harbour "reactionary" ideas about the EU.

I don't see how that follows from my statement. I was referring to people supporting the EDL, which most of the working class in europe does not.

In what way is it racist to oppose a religious ideology,

It becomes racist when the religious ideology is conflated with people of a specific ethnicity and dress. Which is very much the case in the West today.

and to espouse common sense when it comes to immigration,

I don't think it's common sense at all. I think it's paranoid ramblings.

it's almost like you wilfully deny there are instances of deeply reactionary religious practices amongst immigrant communities,

Well, I don't, I just know that those religious practices have been blown out of proportion by the media adn that they're not isolated to immigrants.

when in reality even many ex muslims, and current muslims working against extremism confirm many of the things Tommy Robinson says.

Not really surprising that there are Muslims out there who're just as big idiots as Tommy Robinson.

Would you say you have more in common with Nick Clegg than the EDL on the specific questions of Immigration, EU membership and Islam?

Immigration and Islam - Probably. I'm not sure what Nick Clegg's exact views are on those issues but I can't imagine them to be worse than the EDL's.
EU - No, but although I'm against the EU it's for very different reasons than the EDL's. I have no problem with immigration.

The media plays on the absence of political discourse, the reluctance of politicians to cause disharmony in the coalition by bringing up a fundamental point of disagreement for liberals and conservatives, we are so alienated from the political class it can easily be portrayed that all 3 main parties are part of a liberal conspiracy to betray Britain, that's the Daily mail and Express' angle, it's also UKIP's angle, they gain prominence playing on this fact and more accurately reflect Hitler's Nazi party in that they are superficially populist and pro-democracy, but ideologically much more aristocratic.

Okay so they're all scumbags, what's your point? This does not in any way excuse the EDL.

I refuse to believe the EDL's manifesto and mission statement, coverage and news that i've read so far is "propaganda",

No wonder you're so clueless.

sorry, what I've seen from you are the use of trigger words, accusations, slurs and propaganda to substantiate your position of opposition to "fascism".

[QUOTE=Revenant;2716996] I think they are just typical working class people,

Easy for a white guy such as yourself to say. You're not the one worried about getting beaten up in the street.

PhoenixAsh

2nd February 2014, 19:06

No it seems you violently oppose them, actively try to silence them, and dismiss their concerns about Islam and Immigration as delusions.

You seem to keep making the inane mistake to equate the EDL with the working class instead of a what it actually is: a small part of the working class. The EDL does not represent THE working class as it is NOT and organisation that is concerned with THE working class.

Also it seems you attempt to force them to conform, to the laws implemented by the Bourgeois state to quash dissent against open borders that only serve to benefit the capitalist class, with some minor benefits for anybody coming from an underdeveloped economy.

No I expect them to be utterly annihilated. I do not even want to spend any effort and time in rehabilitating fascists. We do NOT talk with fascists.

This has nothing to do with bourgeoisie laws but with the basic principles of the revolutionary left of non acceptance for discrimination and zero tolerance for fascism.

In fact...I think you do not belong on this board. I don't think you are a revolutionary leftist but a racist apologizer and a SF troll. Since your rhetorical bullshit in defense of racism and fascism and their organisations is exactly the same as how these movements justify their existence.

You say the Bourgeoisie specifically creates and exploits divisions, would you agree that one way they've done this is by opening up the borders and exploiting cheap immigrant labour?

Which is exactly the reason we need to fight organisations that perpetuate and exploit that ideal for their own gain often by spreading false information. Such as the EDL.

Do you think unchecked, unregulated immigration is a good thing for a disintegrating capitalist economy, why do you support that? How do you think diversifying and increasing cultural divisions within the working class benefits the working class?

I do not think it matters. But you do unmask yourself here as a nationalist ethnicist. Because we are not talking about economic effects of immigration (which are contrary to popular believe perpetuated by organisations like the EDL really minor on the job markets) but about the cultural impact "the other people" have. And THAT is pure racism.

When I worked in the factories around Gatwick Airport it was like a micro-United Nations, in my experience the fewest antagonisms existed between English workers and immigrants and the more pronounced divisions, prejudices even, existed amongst immigrants from opposed nations, religious ideologies or cultures. I could recount to you a number of anecdotes highlighting the incompatibility of some forms of Religious ideology, that exist in 21st century Britain only because of the decisions of a political class, that is alienated from it's citizens and growing more so all the time.

This narrative is ad odds with all other arguments you are making.

Why the fuck are people like Anjem Choudry allowed into this country to try and institute Shariah Law, promote fascist ideology, decry freedom of speech and spit upon our (and his own) democratic rights?

Your democratic rights? Are you taking a piss? You sound like a nationalist asshole....which you apparently are. Why don't you pack up and go back to Stromfront ?

Is the real division amongst the working classes created by this broad, ill defined, rag tag group that affiliates itself with opposition to what it calls fascism, yet uses fascist tactics to enforce will of the political classes against the "white" British working class, dissenting against their freedom of assembly and expression?

Is this not the latest attempt to thoroughly demoralize and destroy the working classes, after 40 years of succeeding in that very task?

Dude...you are a fucking nazi. Exactly the same ideology.

Again...the EDL does not represent the working class. It is nothing to do with working class interests. It isn't concerned with working class interests. It isn't concerned with the position of the working class. It is an organisation which exploits the working class. perpetuates its missery and creates false class consciousness by racism and fascism.

Sperm-Doll Setsuna

2nd February 2014, 19:09

That just appears to be anti-White working class propaganda and could have been manufactured by anybody..

Did this just slip past everyone? The EDL is the end-all-be-all of the working class? The mass-movement of the proletariat, as it were? And, anti-white. Loss of words, etc.

tachosomoza

2nd February 2014, 19:14

Yammering about something being "anti-white" should result in an instant ban.

PhoenixAsh

2nd February 2014, 19:15

My motives are merely the investigation of what I consider to be reified conceptions applied to a subsection of society, who another more conformist section of society vehemently disagree with but never try to disprove.

Seriously people just gang up on the EDL and throw things at them, including hypostatized ideas about who or what they are.

I'd also like to know more about this UaF and Antifa group, are they really that diverse or are they populated by left wing university students and muslims exclusively?

Are there some misguided people who support these counter demonstrations, saying they are standing up for freedom of speech and diversity, by attempting to silence and eradicate a group exercising their freedom of speech?

I honestly don't think you have a clue about Fascism in this country, Anjem Choudry is closer to a fascist than Tommy Robinson, do the "Anti-Fascist" brigades stand outside his mosque and protest him?

Why not?

The more posts I read from you in this topic...the more I am convinced you are a national socialist troll.

Your arguments exactly the same arguments that nazi's and fascists use to argue against immigrants and justify their actions.

Not one single argument you make here is compatible with any revolutionary LEFT wing ideology

In fact...your entire argument is...from the defense of cultural purity, the job stealing by immigrants, the arguments against immigration, the defending of white working class, your anti antifa arguments....are only entirely compatible with rightwing fascist and neo nazi ideology.

Just a warning here. That is seriously how you come across. So if you are not and are only seriously misguided and have no clue what the hell you are talking about...I seriously suggest you start readjusting your ideological position.

edit: O well...I just read your last post and you remarks about antiworking class propaganda, exercising freedom of speech and saying others are more fascist than the EDL...

I have to retract my caveat that you might be merely misguided. Because I do not think you are. I think you know exactly what you are saying and I am no certain you are an SF troll. Word for word the same arguments. Word for word.

Sinister Intents

2nd February 2014, 19:17

This fucker 'Revenant' needs banned now....

Le Libérer

3rd February 2014, 01:42

This fucker 'Revenant' needs banned now....
The fucker 'Revenant' is now banned.

Derendscools

3rd February 2014, 10:40

Interesting, Why was Revenant banned, what am I missing here?
Nakidana, you seem emotional, why are you mad?

PhoenixAsh said

No I expect them to be utterly annihilated. I do not even want to spend any effort and time in rehabilitating fascists. We do NOT talk with fascists.

What!? Right lets not communicate with them... Because that would stupid. AND TO BE UTTERLY ANNIHILATED?! well... good luck friend.

SF troll
Good argument... Calling someone a troll.

nationalist ethnicist
How does he seem like a nationalist ethnicist?

Dude...you are a fucking nazi.
Bravo, bravo........

Revenant, if you're reading, its not fair to blame the immigrants with cultural division, I remember one of the things Tommy said was that the Muslims were unwilling or unable to integrate, but I don't think that's true, and these statements only help to alienate everyone.

What Revenant was saying is that people share a concern, and that concern happens to be Islam and Immigration. Why not discuss it?

Nakidana said

I won't rest assured. If you support the EDL you are the enemy. I'm actually surprised you haven't been restricted yet.

Nice, a stupid argument that makes no sense, is that how you make friends?

It becomes racist when the religious ideology is conflated with people of a specific ethnicity and dress. Which is very much the case in the West today.

That doesn't make any sense. Some people want to talk about the religion(which Im assuming is Islam) and others want to add race to it, he was referring to culture and not race... So just FORGET about it, right? and lets not talk about it at all? And how is it very much the case in the west today? Islamaphobia=Having a negative opinion of Islam?

when in reality even many ex muslims, and current muslims working against extremism confirm many of the things Tommy Robinson says.Not really surprising that there are Muslims out there who're just as big idiots as Tommy Robinson.
If we are talking about Islam then what they have said is true, maybe you should study Islam, its pretty sick.

Easy for a white guy such as yourself to say. You're not the one worried about getting beaten up in the street.

Well how do you whats streets are safe and for who? Although this is an area I am not very well aware of. Nakidana, are you worried about getting beaten up on the streets?

And then PhoenixAshs'

The more posts I read from you in this topic...the more I am convinced you are a national socialist troll.

Your arguments exactly the same arguments that nazi's and fascists use to argue against immigrants and justify their actions.

Not one single argument you make here is compatible with any revolutionary LEFT wing ideology

In fact...your entire argument is...from the defense of cultural purity, the job stealing by immigrants, the arguments against immigration, the defending of white working class, your anti antifa arguments....are only entirely compatible with rightwing fascist and neo nazi ideology.

Just a warning here. That is seriously how you come across. So if you are not and are only seriously misguided and have no clue what the hell you are talking about...I seriously suggest you start readjusting your ideological position.

edit: O well...I just read your last post and you remarks about antiworking class propaganda, exercising freedom of speech and saying others are more fascist than the EDL...

I have to retract my caveat that you might be merely misguided. Because I do not think you are. I think you know exactly what you are saying and I am no certain you are an SF troll. Word for word the same arguments. Word for word.

Wow! How could you summarize one person like that, by understanding very little about them, and addressing one concern. Calling him misguided is simply wrong. Just call someone a Nazi and they will disappear apparently?
He shouldn't be banned for childish reasons, like sharing a concern and interest that, according to him, average people like you and me share. But I guess you guys don't converse with fascists, even though he wasn't one. Revenant has clearly stated that he is sympathetic to peoples concerns, and has done nothing to show he is hateful, the people opposed to him were far more hateful.

Yukari

3rd February 2014, 12:22

Interesting, Why was Revenant banned, what am I missing here?

Why is so hard to swallow for all the trolls, idiots and the rest who come here in flocks that the forum is called REVLeft - meaning that the discussions taking place are to be had from a revolutionary standpoint - which is not in conceivable manner to be understood as "where self-styled leftists of all stripes debate the same reactionary and liberal positions time and time again while holding our hats in our hands-left". Go somewhere else if that's what you seek.

What Revenant was saying is that people share a concern, and that concern happens to be Islam and Immigration. Why not discuss it?

So thoroughly has this dead horse been beaten to smithereens, that whatever goo residue happens to be left on the sidewalk has dried up in the sun a long time ago. Our position is clear: Solidarity with immigrants, and there's no compromise in effort to kiss arse to xenophobes which the EDL crowd undoubtedly are - that is unless you take everything at face value and legitimately think that the nationalist organisations are "just lookin' out for their countryy..." and perceive this a phenomena not to be treated with hostility in part of the left. No sympathy is offered to anyone shedding tears for their precious culture and country, the people who all the while rave about anti-whiteness and the low intensity race war being waged by the turban wearing bus driver.

It has been long before established that the workers might be led astray ( so to say ) by reactionary movements. It's nothing new nor interesting that the impoverished folk have now sought to blame their ills on foreigners and the EU as they are for the most part unaware or ignorant of the leftist narrative. We are not ignoring them despite not holding our breath in hopes of recruiting them either, but nevertheless this board is not a place for recruitment drives or having conversations with the xenophobes.

PhoenixAsh

3rd February 2014, 14:12

Interesting, Why was Revenant banned, what am I missing here?

You are missing here that the guy was a nazi troll.

What!? Right lets not communicate with them... Because that would stupid. AND TO BE UTTERLY ANNIHILATED?! well... good luck friend.

Exactly. We do not communicate with fascist organisations like the EDL.

What Revenant was saying is that people share a concern, and that concern happens to be Islam and Immigration. Why not discuss it?

No...what Revenant was saying was that the EDL was a legitimate representation of workers in justified defense of their culture and jobs against the spread of immigrants and Islam which is threatening white working class culture. Any criticism or oppositions to the EDL is anti white worker propaganda and is fascist. He also equated antifa with fascism saying it was dominated by leftwing students and muslims that initiated violence against the EDL which was basically peaceful and wanted to talk but was forced into violence. And he opposed non white immigration because it exploits the working class and because non white immigrants are easily manipulated by unwanted ideology. He sauced that with blanket statements of freedom of speech and pointing out that other non white or non English individuals were attacking his rights and that we should include racist views because we are supposedly for diversity and labeling it as "legitimate concerns".

This entire line of reasoning is literally, word for word, what fascists and neo-nazi's use for legitimizing their position, existence and justification for their actions.

No revolutionary leftist would ever call the EDL a legitimate representation of the working class intent on voicing concern. Rather they would acknowledge that the EDL exploits concerns in a segment of the working class arising from capitalism to further stir nationalism, xenophobia, division and populism...in order to exert power and create an effective street army....which needs to be opposed by any means necessary. They would acknowledge the stated intent by the EDL for class collaboration obedience in exchange for strong position against non white immigrants. They would not advocate dialogue with the EDL...but rather with the working class itself. And they would most definitely acknowledge the EDLs violent opposition towards the revolutionary left in specific and unions in general.

If we are talking about Islam then what they have said is true, maybe you should study Islam, its pretty sick.

Maybe you should study religion and understand that Islam isn't any different from Christianity or Judaism.

Wow! How could you summarize one person like that, by understanding very little about them, and addressing one concern. Calling him misguided is simply wrong. Just call someone a Nazi and they will disappear apparently?
He shouldn't be banned for childish reasons, like sharing a concern and interest that, according to him, average people like you and me share. But I guess you guys don't converse with fascists, even though he wasn't one. Revenant has clearly stated that he is sympathetic to peoples concerns, and has done nothing to show he is hateful, the people opposed to him were far more hateful.

See above. I understand him well enough to know he wasn't addressing the concern so much as defending and legitimizing the EDL through nationalist, racist and bourgeoisie sentiments forming an ideological whole that is akin to the basis of nazism.

Nakidana

3rd February 2014, 17:01

I'll just address the points directed at me. As to the rest I agree with Yukari and PhoenixAsh, no need to restate what they said.

Nakidana, you seem emotional, why are you mad?

Well I'm very sorry sir, but it's hard not to become emotional when faced with an EDL supporter who claims that Guardian footage from EDL protests is "made up" and that performing Nazi salutes does not make you a nazi.

Nice, a stupid argument that makes no sense, is that how you make friends?

What's stupid about it? We're revolutionary leftists. The EDL is a far-right movement. That makes them an enemy. It makes perfect sense.

I don't understand why you're suddenly talking about making friends. I wasn't trying to make a bloody friend! :confused:

That doesn't make any sense. Some people want to talk about the religion(which Im assuming is Islam) and others want to add race to it, he was referring to culture and not race... So just FORGET about it, right? and lets not talk about it at all? And how is it very much the case in the west today? Islamaphobia=Having a negative opinion of Islam?

Of course it does. It's simply a fact that Muslims today are portrayed as Arab terrorists with turbans. People have been targeted simply because they "looked like" Muslims, e.g. Sikhs after 9/11.

Revenant was an admirer of people such as Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens who long ago were rooted out as Islamophobes (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/apr/03/sam-harris-muslim-animus). Thus I think it's perfectly clear that he was not just a guy "criticizing Islam", but that he had an irrational fear of Islam. He supported the EDL's view on Islam which we all know is paranoid and delusional. As I pointed out earlier, Islam is not taking over. Sharia law is not taking over. To make that argument in the UK is to demonize Muslims.

If we are talking about Islam then what they have said is true, maybe you should study Islam, its pretty sick.

If they agree with bloody Tommy Robinson they're not right, they're fucking shitbags, just like him.

Well how do you whats streets are safe and for who?

Wow, fuck you so much for downplaying the threat the EDL poses to immigrants. I don't live in the UK, but earlier in the thread a poster pointed out how the EDL attacked a Kurdish shop. Don't you understand that if you leave these groups alone they get the impression they rule the streets and will just attack more immigrants? Again if you're a white guy it's very easy for you to write them off (btw if they find out you're a communist they'll beat you as well).

Although this is an area I am not very well aware of. Nakidana, are you worried about getting beaten up on the streets?

No, I'm not too worried, thank god! But maybe I should be, Nazi fucks have been mobilizing in my area since the summer of 2013 with filthy nazi stickers all over the place. Just in January three of them jumped a guy and punched his face in. Fortunately since then a strong anti-racist movement has been put together in the area, and I hope we'll be rid of the shitbags soon enough.

If only I could figure out who the hell is putting filthy anti-immigration pamphlets in our mailboxes.