syrian rebels and civilians kick out al-qaida group ISIS

[Sasha]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/03/syrian-opposition-attack-alqaida-affiliate-isis

[IBleedRed]

It doesn't matter IMO. They're all bad, with Assad being only slightly the lesser of the evils what with being secular and having a unified national government, which is, undoubtedly, better than religious fundamentalist tribal government.

None of these groups represents a working class uprising, though.

[DOOM]

I hate to say that, but it's easier to start a revolution in a bourgeois state than in a reactionary islamist state.

[Devrim]

I hate to say that, but it's easier to start a revolution in a bourgeois state than in a reactionary islamist state.

You have experience of doing both, do you?

Devrim

[Le Socialiste]

It doesn't matter IMO. They're all bad, with Assad being only slightly the lesser of the evils what with being secular and having a unified national government, which is, undoubtedly, better than religious fundamentalist tribal government.

None of these groups represents a working class uprising, though.

You're talking about a government that has systematically bombed hospitals, ambulances, and health infrastructure, targeted people's means of acquiring the most basic of necessities like food, water, and electricity, while intentionally releasing captured jihadists from the country's prisons (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/former-prisoners-fight-in-syrian-insurgency-a-927158.html) in order to frame any and all opposition to the regime as the work of al-Qaida:


Around the beginning of the Syrian uprising, in March 2011, Assad once again released jihadists from the country's prisons. Simultaneously, tens of thousands of Syrian students, liberal activists and human rights advocates began being arrested. . .many have been detained arbitrarily, tortured and subjected to unfair trials.

Already at the beginning of the uprising, Assad vilified his opponents as members of al-Qaida, which wasn't true at the time. Some critics of the regime now claim that by releasing the jihadists from prison, Assad's intention was to quickly radicalize the opposition, discrediting it in the process. If that was his aim, it has certainly been a success.

Assad oversaw the wholesale dismantlement of state subsidized and welfare policies and the implementation of neoliberal measures intended to open up the national economy and increase the competitiveness and profitability of Syria's workforce, all on the back of the working-class. His government has overseen a myriad of reforms, from reducing food and oil subsidies (resulting in a 42 percent jump in prices for the latter) to wiping out price controls on products such as animal feed and fertilizer. Even workers and peasants unions have been attacked by the regime as obstacles to its liberalization policies, deliberately deprived of the very funds necessary to continue functioning.

The international community (i.e. the U.S., Saudi Arabia, etc.), intent on seeing these policies seen through to the end, have rewarded Syria by making it the 4th-largest recipient of direct foreign investment (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/04/08/in-syria-follow-the-money-to-find-the-roots-of-the-revolt.html) (upwards of $1.6 billion in 2006 alone). Villages and small to medium-sized cities were by and large abandoned as Assad’s policies continued to exclusively benefit those at the top - at the expense of the wider Syrian population. As a result, Islamic charities and schools stepped in to fill the vacuum left in these areas. It is this sequence of events that supplied the powder keg that was lit in 2011, and helped shape the face and characteristics of the revolt.

Assad's government has also been a willing, if not eager, participant in the United States' so-called "war on terror," detaining, torturing, and imprisoning alleged terrorists at the behest of Washington, D.C. So let's abandon this misguided perception that Assad represents the lesser 'evil' currently at play in Syria. It contributes very little, if anything, to understanding the contours of the conflict, much less its composition.

[CrveniTalas]

The left-wing quite simply has NO ONE to support in Syria. The uprising in the first few days was really about democratic elections, human rights, etc. but then the shooting started. The secular and left-leaning organizations at the forefront of the initial uprising, embodied in the National Coordination Bureau and Local Coordination Committees, were caught unprepared because they figured the Asad regime, like Ben Ali and Mubarak, was unwilling to resort to such violence. They were wrong. This groups were not willing to shoot at the tyrants soldiers, but the FSA (a Western creation, to say the least) was willing to take up the armed struggle. However, the FSA began to be quite rapidly seen as Western puppets, totally out of touch with the true goals and aspirations of the Syrian people. This assessment is correct, especially in regards to the leadership of the FSA. The FSA also began to adopt a sectarian stance and portray itself as a "moderate Sunni Islamic" in response to 1. the propaganda of the Asad regime and 2. the emergence of the fundamentalist rebel groups. The base of support for the rebels has shrunk to only the most radical segment of the Sunni population. The degeneration into a full scale sectarian civil war is complete; it's a war between Sunni fundamentalists and Nusayri Shia hardliners, each aided by their geopolitical allies.

I also want to be totally clear that there is absolutely nothing progressive about the regime of the Asads, neither under Hafiz nor under his son Bashir. In 1970, Hafiz Asad overthrow the pro-Soviet, popular regime of Salah Jadid, in order to very quickly cement a fascist dictatorship. Just because he instituted a few social programs and signed a treaty of friendship and cooperation with the USSR in 1980 does not turn him into some sort of progressive. He jailed, tortured and killed all of the opponents of his sectarian regime, including communists and other real leftists. In 1976, he intervened in Lebanon in order to protect the Maronite Christian right-wing regime against the Lebanese left led by Kamal Jumblatt. He was a coward who feared Israeli intervention into Lebanon and Syria. His son is nothing except a neoliberal, fascist dictator.

The left-wing in Syria has been totally sidelined in the civil war. It has no weapons, weak organization and little outside help so consequently it is not a player in the events. For the left, having to chose either Asad or the rebels is like having to chose death by drowning or death by burning.

[Comrade #138672]

I hate to say that, but it's easier to start a revolution in a bourgeois state than in a reactionary islamist state.Islamist states are also bourgeois states, though.

[khad]

In case you didn't know, the "Syrian rebels" are now known as the Islamic Front.

Infighting among salafist groups happens all the time--like the sun rising and setting every day. Just ask Al-Shabab.


The left-wing in Syria has been totally sidelined in the civil war. It has no weapons, weak organization and little outside help so consequently it is not a player in the events. For the left, having to chose either Asad or the rebels is like having to chose death by drowning or death by burning.
Syrian Guevarists supposedly have a 2000-strong militia operating in the Latakia mountains. I could criticize them for their revanchist focoism (they apparently want to liberate Hatay) or their alliance with the Syrian state, but you know what? I'm not going to waste my breath. It's not like the Euromerican left has any done anything to give it credibility to criticize anyone for anything. Where were they when communists were being killed in Aleppo? Oh yeah, writing checks to Islamic Front and Nusra "charities" operating out of Turkey.

[GerrardWinstanley]

Nothing but inter-jihadist skirmishes. Jabhat al-Nusra has a history of using FSA flags when 'liberating' enemy held territory so as not to disrupt the flow of funds and arms to their non-al-Qaeda allies in the insurgency (persistently referred to by the mainstream media as the FSA or the "moderate" Islamists)

Widespead discontent and commitments in Iraq has thrown ISIS into tactical retreat so this outcome is neither important or unexpected. They will regroup later.

More important to ending the conflict (and thus this neverending nightmare for Syrians) is recent ceasefires between the government (who is offering amnesties) and rebels in Moadamiyet al-Sham and in parts of Damascus.

[Radical Rambler]

This is just a ploy by the Western imperialist powers, Israel, and the Fascist Arab Monarchies to get people to believe one groups of Salafi Fascist fanatics is respectable.

Hope they kill each other, and then Assad kills whoever is left.

[GerrardWinstanley]

You're talking about a government that has systematically bombed hospitals, ambulances, and health infrastructure, targeted people's means of acquiring the most basic of necessities like food, water, and electricity, while intentionally releasing captured jihadists from the country's prisons (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/former-prisoners-fight-in-syrian-insurgency-a-927158.html) in order to frame any and all opposition to the regime as the work of al-Qaida:Even if this wasn't mostly Al-Jazeera/BBC style lies, the rebels have done this and worse. Did the siege of Aleppo and the levelling of Aleppo's al-Kindi hospital escape your attention? And do you actually believe a government would target its own infrastructure staff, as opposed to the people who are known to have systematically slaughtered them in Adra not long ago?


Assad oversaw the wholesale dismantlement of state subsidized and welfare policies and the implementation of neoliberal measures intended to open up the national economy and increase the competitiveness and profitability of Syria's workforce, all on the back of the working-class. His government has overseen a myriad of reforms, from reducing food and oil subsidies (resulting in a 42 percent jump in prices for the latter) to wiping out price controls on products such as animal feed and fertilizer. Even workers and peasants unions have been attacked by the regime as obstacles to its liberalization policies, deliberately deprived of the very funds necessary to continue functioning.

The international community (i.e. the U.S., Saudi Arabia, etc.), intent on seeing these policies seen through to the end, have rewarded Syria by making it the 4th-largest recipient of direct foreign investment (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/04/08/in-syria-follow-the-money-to-find-the-roots-of-the-revolt.html) (upwards of $1.6 billion in 2006 alone). Villages and small to medium-sized cities were by and large abandoned as Assad’s policies continued to exclusively benefit those at the top - at the expense of the wider Syrian population. As a result, Islamic charities and schools stepped in to fill the vacuum left in these areas. It is this sequence of events that supplied the powder keg that was lit in 2011, and helped shape the face and characteristics of the revolt.

Assad's government has also been a willing, if not eager, participant in the United States' so-called "war on terror," detaining, torturing, and imprisoning alleged terrorists at the behest of Washington, D.C. So let's abandon this misguided perception that Assad represents the lesser 'evil' currently at play in Syria. It contributes very little, if anything, to understanding the contours of the conflict, much less its composition.Well I guess that settles it then. Since Syria is not a picturesque haven of social progress (plus, it's capitalist right?). They may as well destroy the place.

[IBleedRed]

You're talking about a government that has systematically bombed hospitals, ambulances, and health infrastructure, targeted people's means of acquiring the most basic of necessities like food, water, and electricity, while intentionally releasing captured jihadists from the country's prisons (http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/former-prisoners-fight-in-syrian-insurgency-a-927158.html) in order to frame any and all opposition to the regime as the work of al-Qaida

The rebels have done all of the above and far worse.


Assad oversaw the wholesale dismantlement of state subsidized and welfare policies and the implementation of neoliberal measures intended to open up the national economy and increase the competitiveness and profitability of Syria's workforce, all on the back of the working-class. His government has overseen a myriad of reforms, from reducing food and oil subsidies (resulting in a 42 percent jump in prices for the latter) to wiping out price controls on products such as animal feed and fertilizer. Even workers and peasants unions have been attacked by the regime as obstacles to its liberalization policies, deliberately deprived of the very funds necessary to continue functioning.

The international community (i.e. the U.S., Saudi Arabia, etc.), intent on seeing these policies seen through to the end, have rewarded Syria by making it the 4th-largest recipient of direct foreign investment (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/04/08/in-syria-follow-the-money-to-find-the-roots-of-the-revolt.html) (upwards of $1.6 billion in 2006 alone). Villages and small to medium-sized cities were by and large abandoned as Assad’s policies continued to exclusively benefit those at the top - at the expense of the wider Syrian population. As a result, Islamic charities and schools stepped in to fill the vacuum left in these areas. It is this sequence of events that supplied the powder keg that was lit in 2011, and helped shape the face and characteristics of the revolt.

Assad's government has also been a willing, if not eager, participant in the United States' so-called "war on terror," detaining, torturing, and imprisoning alleged terrorists at the behest of Washington, D.C. So let's abandon this misguided perception that Assad represents the lesser 'evil' currently at play in Syria. It contributes very little, if anything, to understanding the contours of the conflict, much less its composition.

So Assad is just another capitalist autocrat. Are you surprised? All I said was that whatever he is, he's better than Islamic fundamentalists, and that's true. I do agree with Legenda1 that a revolution, and broad working class consciousness, is more possible in a secular capitalist state than in an Islamic fundamentalist state. These Islamic fundamentalist psychos are not simply "backwards", they are feudal and pre-feudal

[Comrade Chernov]

As I've said before, in my opinion the only side worth supporting is the Kurds. The Popular Protection Units (they being the Kurdish self-defense militias) are against both the Assad regime and the Islamists, they're linked with our comrades in Turkey's Kurdish PKK, they're secular, they have gender equality in place within their ranks, and they've committed no deplorable acts, simply wishing to liberate themselves from the yoke of the Syrian government and do the same for their brothers and sisters in Iraq and Turkey. I'm not seeing a reason to dislike them.

[Devrim]

I do agree with Legenda1 that a revolution, and broad working class consciousness, is more possible in a secular capitalist state than in an Islamic fundamentalist state. These Islamic fundamentalist psychos are not simply "backwards", they are feudal and pre-feudal

Why do you think this? What is the supporting evidence for this belief beyond your opinion that Muslims are worse than backwards?

Devrim

[Devrim]

As I've said before, in my opinion the only side worth supporting is the Kurds.

It is not a football match. You don't have to pick one nationalist gang to support over the others.

Devrim

[Tim Cornelis]

In case you didn't know, the "Syrian rebels" are now known as the Islamic Front.

No they're not. The Islamic Front is one front. ISIS another, FSA another. Pars pro toto.

[khad]

No they're not. The Islamic Front is one front. ISIS another, FSA another. Pars pro toto.
Again with this stupid fiction.

The new Islamic Front consists of the most significant armed groups in the "FSA" dropping out of Salim Idriss's command and rebranding themselves. In terms of personnel, they ARE the FSA. They have territorial disputes with ISIS, and that's what the current fighting is about. If I have to spell it out for you: the "Syrian rebels" cited by psycho in his op refers to this Islamist agglomeration.

http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/major-rebel-factions-drop-exiles-go-full-islamist/



The following groups are listed as signatories to the statement.


Jabhat al-Nosra
Islamic Ahrar al-Sham Movement
Tawhid Brigade
Islam Brigade
Suqour al-Sham Brigades
Islamic Dawn Movement
Islamic Light Movement
Noureddin al-Zengi Battalions
Haqq Brigade – Homs [See update below]
Furqan Brigade – Quneitra [See update below]
Fa-staqim Kama Ummirat Gathering – Aleppo
19th Division
Ansar Brigade

Who are these people?
The alleged signatories make up a major part of the northern rebel force, plus big chunks also of the Homs and Damascus rebel scene, as well as a bit of it elsewhere. Some of them are among the biggest armed groups in the countryNote #2 and #5 on the list, the Salafist Ahrar a-Sham militia and their close allies Suquor al-Sham (Sham Falcons).

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LGMxCpdB2JgJ:www.albawaba.com/news/isis-lebanon-544707+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


An alliance of seven Islamist rebel militias has accused the hard-line jihadists from the Islamic State of Iraq and Greater Syria (ISIS) (http://www.albawaba.com/news/syria-alqaeda-isis-libi-522215) of being “worse than the Assad regime,” after the latest outrage against a fellow jihadist.ISIS militants were blamed this week for the kidnapping and killing of Hussein al-Suleiman, a physician who was also a commander in the Ahrar al-Sham militia.

Ahrar al-Sham (http://www.albawaba.com/news/syrian-rebels-battle-regime-troops-aleppo-501560) is one of the country’s biggest rebel groups, and is a member of the Islamic Front alliance along with six other militias, most of which enjoy a nationwide presence.

A gruesome photograph of Suleiman’s disfigured body has circulated widely on social media.

The Front said that Suleiman was arrested after he went to meet with an ISIS delegation in order to settle a dispute that arose in the village of Maskaneh in rural Aleppo.

In a statement Wednesday, the Front demanded that ISIS hand over those responsible for Suleiman’s killing, while pointing to the blanket refusal by ISIS militants to cooperate with the Shariah Committees that have been established in rebel-held areas to handle local disputes.http://yallasouriya.wordpress.com/tag/suqoor-alsham/



#Syria -
@Charles_Lister
New pic has emerged of leaders of Ahrar al-Sham, Suqor al-Sham, Liwa al-Tawhid & Jaish al-Islam leaders in #Syria: http://pic.twitter.com/SDXptXtQuB
Important shift: Leaders themselves have tweeted the picture this time. Plus, Abu Issa al-Sheikh indicated possible merger this AM.
Negotiations definitely ongoing re. poss. future merging of #Syria’s key Islamist/Salafist rebel groups: potentially major implications.Now that we've established that groups like Ahrar al-Sham, Suquor al-Sham, Monotheism Brigade et al are part of the Islamic Front, have a look at this tweet a few days ago regarding the recent altercations between ISIS and the Islamic front:


5:42 pm on January 3, 2014
#Syria #ISIS -
@troublejee
Suqur al-Sham said they stopped an ISIS convoy from reaching al-Atareb to attack regiment 46 & seize all his fighters http://m.eldorar.com/node/38285Al-Atareb, Al-Atareb, where have I heard of that place before? Oh yeah...



The most serious clashes yet between the Syrian opposition and a prominent al-Qaida group erupted in the north of the country on Friday as a tribal revolt against the same organisation continued to rage in Iraq (http://www.theguardian.com/world/iraq)'s Anbar province.

Opposition groups near Aleppo attacked militants from the Islamic State of Iraq in Syria (http://www.theguardian.com/world/syria) (Isis) in two areas, al-Atareb and Andana, which are both strongholds of the fundamentalist Sunni organisation.

[greenforest]

The rebels have done all of the above and far worse.


Shoot dead hundreds of peaceful demonstrators and mutilate children (beside ISIS)?

[IBleedRed]

Shoot dead hundreds of peaceful demonstrators and mutilate children (beside ISIS)?
When did the peaceful demonstrators exist?

Yes, they have mutilated children.
http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-backed-rebels-dismember-live-christian-girl

[greenforest]

Again with this stupid fiction.

The new Islamic Front consists of the most significant armed groups in the "FSA" dropping out of Salim Idriss's command and rebranding themselves. In terms of personnel, they ARE the FSA. They have territorial disputes with ISIS, and that's what the current fighting is about. If I have to spell it out for you: the "Syrian rebels" cited by psycho in his op refers to this Islamist agglomeration.

http://www.joshualandis.com/blog/major-rebel-factions-drop-exiles-go-full-islamist/

Note #2 and #5 on the list, the Salafist Ahrar a-Sham militia and their close allies Suquor al-Sham (Sham Falcons).

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:LGMxCpdB2JgJ:www.albawaba.com/news/isis-lebanon-544707+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://yallasouriya.wordpress.com/tag/suqoor-alsham/

Now that we've established that groups like Ahrar al-Sham, Suquor al-Sham, Monotheism Brigade et al are part of the Islamic Front, have a look at this tweet a few days ago regarding the recent altercations between ISIS and the Islamic front:

Al-Atareb, Al-Atareb, where have I heard of that place before? Oh yeah...

What a confusing post. The most powerful group in the Islamic Front is Ahrar al-Sham, and they have never been part of the FSA. Of the four major groups comprising the Islamic Front, only one has previously operated under the banner of the FSA.

Meaning: 'Islamic Front consists of the most significant armed groups in the "FSA" ' and ' In terms of personnel, they ARE the FSA' are both demonstrably wrong.

[greenforest]

When did the peaceful demonstrators exist?

Yes, they have mutilated children.
http://www.examiner.com/article/obama-backed-rebels-dismember-live-christian-girl

So your 'story' does not have a name for the dismembered girl?

And you don't seem to recall the Syrian government's actions that started the insurgency?

[khad]

What a confusing post. The most powerful group in the Islamic Front is Ahrar al-Sham, and they have never been part of the FSA. Of the four major groups comprising the Islamic Front, only one has previously operated under the banner of the FSA.

Meaning: 'Islamic Front consists of the most significant armed groups in the "FSA" ' and ' In terms of personnel, they ARE the FSA' are both demonstrably wrong.
Oh my, what wikipedia knowledge you display! I bet you read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Islamic_Front

The Syrian Islamic Front (Arabic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language): الجبهة الإسلامية السورية‎ al-Jabhah al-Islāmiyya as-Sūriyyah) was a Salafist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salafist) umbrella organisation of Islamist rebel groups fighting the Bashar al-Assad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashar_al-Assad) government in Syria during the Syrian civil war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_civil_war).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Islamic_Front#cite_note-3) Its largest group was the Salafist Ahrar al-Sham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahrar_al-Sham), which reportedly "lead" and "dominated" the Front.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Islamic_Front#cite_note-protest-4)Oh, wait...


In November 2013 the SIF announced that it was dissolving and its components would henceforth operate as part of the newly formed Islamic Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Front_%28Syria%29). [5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Islamic_Front#cite_note-5)Get with the times already, http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/7/70/079Slowpoke.png

In addition to many of the largest formerly SNC allied groups going over to the new Islamic Front


On 22 November, seven Islamist groups agreed to a pact that would dissolve the groups individually and lead to the formation of the Islamic Front. The groups are:

Aleppo's largest opposition fighting force Liwa al-Tawhid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liwa_al-Tawhid)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Front_%28Syria%29#cite_note-MSN22Nov-8) (formerly part of the Syrian Islamic Liberation Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Islamic_Liberation_Front))
Salafist Ahrar al-Sham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahrar_al-Sham)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Front_%28Syria%29#cite_note-MSN22Nov-8) (formerly part of the Syrian Islamic Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Islamic_Front))[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Front_%28Syria%29#cite_note-ISW22Nov-9)
Homs-based Liwa al-Haqq (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Liwa_al-Haqq&action=edit&redlink=1) (formerly part of Syrian Islamic Front)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Front_%28Syria%29#cite_note-ISW22Nov-9)
Idlib-based Suqour al-Sham (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suqour_al-Sham) (formerly part of the Syrian Islamic Liberation Front)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Front_%28Syria%29#cite_note-ISW22Nov-9)
Damascus-based Jaysh al-Islam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaysh_al-Islam)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Front_%28Syria%29#cite_note-MSN22Nov-8) (formerly part of Syrian Islamic Liberation Front)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Front_%28Syria%29#cite_note-ISW22Nov-9)
Ansar al-Sham (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ansar_al-Sham&action=edit&redlink=1) (formerly part of the Syrian Islamic Front)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Front_%28Syria%29#cite_note-ISW22Nov-9)
Kurdish Islamic Front (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Kurdish_Islamic_Front&action=edit&redlink=1)

Liwa al-Tawhid and the Sham Falcons, whom you may or may not know of, both endorsed the SNC at one point or the other, making them nominal former FSA groups. This, however, is not including all the absorption of splintered former FSA units by Islamist formations.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/08/free-syrian-army-rebels-defect-islamist-group


"Fighters feel proud to join al-Nusra because that means power and influence," said Abu Ahmed, a former teacher from Deir Hafer who now commands an FSA brigade in the countryside near Aleppo. "Al-Nusra fighters rarely withdraw for shortage of ammunition or fighters and they leave their target only after liberating it," he added. "They compete to carry out martyrdom [suicide] operations."

Abu Ahmed and others say the FSA has lost fighters to al-Nusra in Aleppo, Hama, Idlib and Deir al-Zor and the Damascus region. Ala'a al-Basha, commander of the Sayyida Aisha brigade, warned the FSA chief of staff, General Salim Idriss, about the issue last month. Basha said 3,000 FSA men have joined al-Nusra in the last few monthshttp://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/11/21/rebels_inc#sthash.JIJYifA4.dpbs



The fate of the Farouk Brigades offers a case study of the forces at work. Once a much-vaunted (http://world.time.com/2012/10/05/syrias-up-and-coming-rebels-who-are-the-farouq-brigades-2/) group that received generous arms deliveries from Turkey, the Farouk Brigades was, at one point, the lynchpin of the West's effort to build a "moderate" opposition. Instead of making the necessary alliances needed to carve out their own fiefdom in resource-rich areas, Farouk's forces embarked (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/09/18/rebel_vs_rebel_syria_jihadists_groups) on a disastrous war with two powerful families: Ahrar al-Sham and Jabhat al-Nusra. The war ended with Farouk's expulsion from oil- and grain-rich Raqqa province; it also lost control over the vital border crossing at Tal Abyad that its fighters had liberated in September 2012. Confined to resource-poor and heavily contested Homs province, it failed to draw smaller groups into its orbit and grew progressively weaker, eventually splintering into bickering factions of a few hundred fighters each. The rebels call this process of decline tarahul, or "limpness," and it often remains imperceptible to those looking in from the outside.There are 7 formal members of the CURRENT Islamic Front, but every one of them has absorbed numerous smaller militias. Jaysh al-Islam, for instance, consists of over 40 former groups, many of which were formerly aligned with the SNC.

You can work your way through Jaysh al-Islam's 43 signatories rejecting the leadership of the SNC and proclaiming Islamism. Spoiler Alert: The list includes the Farouq brigade (what's left of those cannibals, anyway)

nIjtc6At-CU

[Le Socialiste]

When did the peaceful demonstrators exist?

You're kidding, right? Please tell me you're just being facetious.

[greenforest]

Oh my, what wikipedia knowledge you display! I bet you read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Islamic_Front
Oh, wait...

Get with the times already,

Posts copy-paste of Syrian Islamic Front in reply to Ahrar al-Sham being mentioned.

Gets confused and apparently doesn't know that Syrian Islamic Front (SYF) and SNC are two different abbreviations, let alone movements.

Nothing in post refutes point that Ahrar al-Sham is most powerful group of Islamic Front and was never FSA.

Begins mumbling about SNC without explanation why he mentioned SYF in just previous line.


In addition to many of the largest formerly SNC allied groups going over to the new Islamic Front


Liwa al-Tawhid and the Sham Falcons, whom you may or may not know of, both endorsed the SNC at one point or the other, making them nominal former FSA groups. This, however, is not including all the absorption of splintered former FSA units by Islamist formations.Liwa al-Tawhid fought under the FSA's banner?

No?

So they weren't actually part of the FSA. Making your post a red herring.

Good job.




http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/08/free-syrian-army-rebels-defect-islamist-group (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/may/08/free-syrian-army-rebels-defect-islamist-group)

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2013/11/21/rebels_inc#sthash.JIJYifA4.dpbs

There are 7 formal members of the CURRENT Islamic Front, but every one of them has absorbed numerous smaller militias. Jaysh al-Islam, for instance, consists of over 40 former groups, many of which were formerly aligned with the SNC.

You can work your way through Jaysh al-Islam's 43 signatories rejecting the leadership of the SNC and proclaiming Islamism. Spoiler Alert: The list includes the Farouq brigade (what's left of those cannibals, anyway)

nIjtc6At-CUWhy would this information be relevant when it doesn't prove in the slightest that:

A) 'Islamic Front consists of the most significant armed groups in the "FSA"'

Note: It doesn't.


B) ' In terms of personnel, they ARE the FSA'

That's wrong, too. Unless you're trying to make a point that defected Syrian government forces fighting on the opposition side should still be counted as Assad's loyal followers.

Proof would require actual numbers, not YouTube clips.

[khad]

Liwa al-Tawhid fought under the FSA's banner?

No?
These are videos released by Liwa al-Tawhid from last year:

9m6qqZsNQn0
kJ9s_kcL9Dk

What's that in the corner I see? Doesn't look like a black flag to me. Jeepers! It's the spread wings and colors of the FSA.

Hey, look, it's Liwa al-Tawhid's Aleppo commander Abdul-Aziz Salameh:


http://goldandguns.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/image-396.png

Hate to break the news, but it looks like Liwa Al-Tawhid literally fought under the banner of the FSA.


A) 'Islamic Front consists of the most significant armed groups in the "FSA"'

Note: It doesn't. Liwa al-Tawhid, Suquor al-Sham, and the Farouqs WERE THE FSA at one point. Literally the only groups that mattered at all.

Will you or will you not deny that the following men are current or former members of Salim Idriss's Supreme Military Command:

Sheikh Ahmed Issa - Sham Falcons commander and member of the SMC financial committee
Lieutenants Abdel Tlas, Omar Shamsi, and Osama al-Jounedi - Farouq Brigade commanders
Sheikh Zahran Alloush - Commander of Liwa al-Islam (you know, the brigade that formed Jaysh al-Islam by absorbing several dozen smaller militias)


B) ' In terms of personnel, they ARE the FSA'

That's wrong, too. Unless you're trying to make a point that defected Syrian government forces fighting on the opposition side should still be counted as Assad's loyal followers.

Proof would require actual numbers, not YouTube clips.Lol, asking for verifiable guesswork in a conflict like Syria. Do you suppose I should call up the Chechen wahhabist leaders of last year's Latakia operation for a full OOB and disposition map? This is, of course, after I call up the nearest Al-Q recruiting office to find out exactly how many recruits are being sent to what units from 50 different countries. And I suppose I should then phone the Islamist public health ministry to find out exactly how many KIAs, WIAs, DOWs, MIAs, and POWs were incurred. And then I should contact their veterans' support services to find how how many were left permanently disabled, what kind of benefits they're receiving, etc, etc.

Tracking lists of groups and publicly declared alliances is the best you're going to get. I will say this, however. Don't you all find it funny how Uncle Saleem's propaganda office is no longer touting their 100,000 FSA fighters now that the western bourgeois press is admitting that the Islamic Front comprises the bulk of armed groups in the country?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/12/world/syria-islamic-front/

Now for more news from Wahhabi Central AKA Al-Jazeera
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/01/al-qaeda-linked-group-kills-aleppo-captives-2014175161198234.html

On Monday, rebels in northeastern Raqqa province managed to free 50 Syrian prisoners held by the ISIL, who are believed to be holding hundreds of prisoners, including foreign journalists.

Raqqa is the only provincial capital lost by the regime since the Syrian conflict began in March 2011.

The city later fell into the hands of ISIL, which joined the fight against the regime in last spring.

The Observatory said the main group besieging ISIL's Raqa headquarters is Al-Nusra Front, which is also affiliated with Al-Qaeda but is seen as less hardline and has long competed with ISIL to represent al-Qaeda in Syria.

ISIL has struck back, including with a car bombing at a rebel checkpoint in Darkush, Idlib that killed an unknown number of fighters on Monday.

[khad]

"Heroic Martyrs of Al-Nusra Front, the Monotheism Brigades, and the Army of Islam Rain Divine Fury Upon the Apostates of ISIL"

This should be the thread's title.

[IBleedRed]

So your 'story' does not have a name for the dismembered girl? And?

I see no reason to doubt the story given the atrocities that have been committed time and again by the so-called "rebels" during the course of the war. While both groups have killed civilians, the traditional Syrian Army does not kill because of religious denomination or sect. It's more of a "collateral damage" sort of thing - still wrong, to be sure, but something that is altogether easier to stop than religious-fundamentalist-bloodlust.

The Islamist "rebels" have an ideological drive to slaughter non-Sunni minorities.


And you don't seem to recall the Syrian government's actions that started the insurgency?I recall that there was an attempted uprising by hardcore Islamists masquerading as democracy-loving peaceful demonstrators. Western audiences would have been much less sympathetic to jihadist thugs than to "poor old protestors" just fighting for their "freedoms and rights".

The line about "peaceful demonstrations" has been regurgitated time and time again in the mainstream (bourgeois) media.

In fact, history tells us exactly what the 2011 uprising was: an attempt by the Muslim Brotherhood to seize power, just as they tried to do in 1982.

You're kidding, right? Please tell me you're just being facetious.

I'm dead serious. See above.

The revolutionary left truly has no side to be on in this conflict. The only reason I would ever think that the Assadist state is better is because Christians and minorities weren't getting slaughtered day in and day out under that regime.

[Radical Rambler]

The imperialist Euro-Settler "Left" and the pan-European EU-groupie "Left" love murderous Salafi-Fascists on the payroll of their white Israeli Zionist brothers.

[Comrade Chernov]

It is not a football match. You don't have to pick one nationalist gang to support over the others.

Devrim

The Kurds are opposed to the Syrian Government, the FSA, and the islamist militants, so I find it difficult to support them along with another group.

[greenforest]

And?

I see no reason to doubt the story given the atrocities that have been committed time and again by the so-called "rebels" during the course of the war. While both groups have killed civilians, the traditional Syrian Army does not kill because of religious denomination or sect. It's more of a "collateral damage" sort of thing - still wrong, to be sure, but something that is altogether easier to stop than religious-fundamentalist-bloodlust.

I see numerous reasons to doubt the story.

Some story 'picked' ie., fabricated, by Russian media that does not provide a name and no one else ran.

I happen to follow several blogs of various affiliations re: Syria and none, including the rabidly pro-government ones, carried this.

So Syrian rebels uncharacteristically amputated a girl? Err, this isn't Indonesia. I doubt even ISIS rebels would get away with that from their superiors.

The Syrian army might not kill per sect (though, that's somewhat doubtful given their ethnic cleansing in Latakia), but the national defense forces and shabiha have established track records of punishing villages, eg., Sunni Arabs, of supporting rebels, and attempting to create a rump state for Alawites by driving Sunnis from would-be border areas.

Any list of massacres show quite clearly the Syrian government forces have carried out the lion share of murdering sprees and indiscriminate bombings.

I am actually quite surprised at how well behaved the rebels have actually been, considering the atrocities their counterparts in Iraq have committed for over the past decade.

Btw, the Syrian air force has killed over six hundred people in indiscriminate bombings in Aleppo over a week long period just recently. There was no collateral damage there, but a deliberate terror bombing campaign.

The insurgents have not yet carried out such carnage in the form of car bombings against Syrians viewed as supportive of Assad.


The Islamist "rebels" have an ideological drive to slaughter non-Sunni minorities.The ISIS have called for an actual genocide against Alawites, and the al-Nusra Front called for 'an eye for an eye' against Alawites following the government's chemical attack a few months ago. However, beside the ISIS's call for genocide and proven track record for killing Alawites and Shia, whom they view as apostates, the vast majority of Islamist groups do not have marching orders to kill all non-Sunni Muslims in Syria.[/quote]


I recall that there was an attempted uprising by hardcore Islamists masquerading as democracy-loving peaceful demonstrators. Western audiences would have been much less sympathetic to jihadist thugs than to "poor old protestors" just fighting for their "freedoms and rights".

The line about "peaceful demonstrations" has been regurgitated time and time again in the mainstream (bourgeois) media.

In fact, history tells us exactly what the 2011 uprising was: an attempt by the Muslim Brotherhood to seize power, just as they tried to do in 1982.


I'm dead serious. See above.

The revolutionary left truly has no side to be on in this conflict. The only reason I would ever think that the Assadist state is better is because Christians and minorities weren't getting slaughtered day in and day out under that regime.You can be a Muslim Brotherhood member and still be a peaceful civilian protestor.

I don't know how to respond to the above, tbh.

[greenforest]

These are videos released by Liwa al-Tawhid from last year:

What's that in the corner I see? Doesn't look like a black flag to me. Jeepers! It's the spread wings and colors of the FSA.

Hey, look, it's Liwa al-Tawhid's Aleppo commander Abdul-Aziz Salameh:


Hate to break the news, but it looks like Liwa Al-Tawhid literally fought under the banner of the FSA.

Liwa al-Tawhid, Suquor al-Sham, and the Farouqs WERE THE FSA at one point. Literally the only groups that mattered at all.

Will you or will you not deny that the following men are current or former members of Salim Idriss's Supreme Military Command:

Sheikh Ahmed Issa - Sham Falcons commander and member of the SMC financial committee
Lieutenants Abdel Tlas, Omar Shamsi, and Osama al-Jounedi - Farouq Brigade commanders
Sheikh Zahran Alloush - Commander of Liwa al-Islam (you know, the brigade that formed Jaysh al-Islam by absorbing several dozen smaller militias)

Lol, asking for verifiable guesswork in a conflict like Syria. Do you suppose I should call up the Chechen wahhabist leaders of last year's Latakia operation for a full OOB and disposition map? This is, of course, after I call up the nearest Al-Q recruiting office to find out exactly how many recruits are being sent to what units from 50 different countries. And I suppose I should then phone the Islamist public health ministry to find out exactly how many KIAs, WIAs, DOWs, MIAs, and POWs were incurred. And then I should contact their veterans' support services to find how how many were left permanently disabled, what kind of benefits they're receiving, etc, etc.

Tracking lists of groups and publicly declared alliances is the best you're going to get. I will say this, however. Don't you all find it funny how Uncle Saleem's propaganda office is no longer touting their 100,000 FSA fighters now that the western bourgeois press is admitting that the Islamic Front comprises the bulk of armed groups in the country?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/12/world/syria-islamic-front/

Now for more news from Wahhabi Central AKA Al-Jazeera
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/01/al-qaeda-linked-group-kills-aleppo-captives-2014175161198234.html

YouTube videos and a picture of a battalion commander does not prove Liwa al-Tawhid was, as a whole, fighting under the banner of the FSA.

You should also know the al-nusra fighters in Raqqa fighting ISIS were never fully integrated into al-nusra after they made bayah.

https://twitter.com/ajaltamimi

AJE, btw, is somewhat wrong. AS and JN continued having a presence in Raqqa; ISIS shared the city with the other two, which explains how easily ISIS was besieged.

[IBleedRed]

I see numerous reasons to doubt the story.

Some story 'picked' ie., fabricated, by Russian media that does not provide a name and no one else ran.

I happen to follow several blogs of various affiliations re: Syria and none, including the rabidly pro-government ones, carried this.

So Syrian rebels uncharacteristically amputated a girl? Err, this isn't Indonesia. I doubt even ISIS rebels would get away with that from their superiors.

This story is one of many. Are you going to deny the murder of hundreds of Alawites that occurred in late August near Latakia?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/11/syrian-rebels-accused-killing-civilians-latakia


The Syrian army might not kill per sect (though, that's somewhat doubtful given their ethnic cleansing in Latakia), but the national defense forces and shabiha have established track records of punishing villages, eg., Sunni Arabs, of supporting rebels, and attempting to create a rump state for Alawites by driving Sunnis from would-be border areas.

This isn't very surprising, really. For a time, it looked like the government side was losing. A loss would have meant catastrophe for Alawites and most everybody who is a minority, so this may indeed be a program intended to create a "safe zone" for Alawites and minorities in Syria by driving out the sunnis in order to create a new state or autonomous territory.

I don't agree with that policy since I'm not a nationalist, but I can understand its appeal to somebody who lives in Syria and doesn't want his family slaughtered like dogs for not being sunni.



Any list of massacres show quite clearly the Syrian government forces have carried out the lion share of murdering sprees and indiscriminate bombings.
Maybe. But the lion's share of that lion's share are battlefield collateral. The Syrian military doesn't have very many surgical strike teams and crude artillery.


I am actually quite surprised at how well behaved the rebels have actually been, considering the atrocities their counterparts in Iraq have committed for over the past decade.

Maybe you and I have different definitions of "well-behaved"


Btw, the Syrian air force has killed over six hundred people in indiscriminate bombings in Aleppo over a week long period just recently. There was no collateral damage there, but a deliberate terror bombing campaign.

Terror has been utilized by both sides. I think peace is what's needed at this point.


The insurgents have not yet carried out such carnage in the form of car bombings against Syrians viewed as supportive of Assad.

In other words, the majority of Syrians


The ISIS have called for an actual genocide against Alawites, and the al-Nusra Front called for 'an eye for an eye' against Alawites following the government's chemical attack a few months ago. However, beside the ISIS's call for genocide and proven track record for killing Alawites and Shia, whom they view as apostates, the vast majority of Islamist groups do not have marching orders to kill all non-Sunni Muslims in Syria

Says you. Let's look at how Christians are faring in Egypt (i.e getting murdered). And Egypt was alot less bloody and less controversial. Already, Christians have been fleeing Syria in droves since the "rebels" started this war three years ago. Many Islamist groups have expressed a desire for an Islamist-dominated Syria free of Christians.

This is not an uncommon point of view of the sunni extremist. They are, by all accounts, ravenous, bloodthirsty, genocidal vermin.


You can be a Muslim Brotherhood member and still be a peaceful civilian protestor.

If you're a MB supporter threatening genocide against minorities, don't complain when you get shot.


I don't know how to respond to the above, tbh.

You mean the facts? Simple. Talk to some Syrian Christians and ask them what they think. I bet most of them would back up everything I've said.

[Le Socialiste]

I recall that there was an attempted uprising by hardcore Islamists masquerading as democracy-loving peaceful demonstrators. Western audiences would have been much less sympathetic to jihadist thugs than to "poor old protestors" just fighting for their "freedoms and rights".

The line about "peaceful demonstrations" has been regurgitated time and time again in the mainstream (bourgeois) media.

In fact, history tells us exactly what the 2011 uprising was: an attempt by the Muslim Brotherhood to seize power, just as they tried to do in 1982.

Actually, initial protests began after police in Daraa arrested and tortured teenagers and young boys who'd written anti-regime graffiti, based in large part on slogans inspired by the Tunisian and Egyptian revolutions. When family members and other protesters took to the streets, they only appealed for small-scale reforms. The government's response was to open fire on the demonstrators with live ammunition. The events unfolding in Daraa in 2011 sparked similar expressions of anti-regime sentiment, resulting in protests in coastal cities like Baniyas and Latkaia, as well as in industrial centers like Homs. When the military and security forces escalated the scale of their repression, the demands put forward by the movement radicalized around the ouster of Assad himself, eventually taking up of arms in response to the government's 'scorched earth' strategy.

You and others often refer to the sectarian character of the uprising, yet you forget that these divisions were encouraged first and foremost by the regime in order to maintain itself in power for decades. These are not natural divergences, nor were they inevitable. They've been cultivated by governments in the region for over a century, to the detriment of popular uprisings like those we've seen in Syria and elsewhere. Never mind that Christians, Alawites, and Druze have not fared much better under the Assad family than the rest of the population, or that the regime fostered the rise of a Sunni middle class so as to broaden its social base. It also doesn't help to paint the Alawites with the same brush as the Syrian ruling-class. While Alawites dominate many prominent positions within the government, some of the more vocal critics of the regime have come from the Alawite community; it is not unusual, therefore, to see Alawite opposition members imprisoned, even persecuted.

It is easily demonstrated, then, that Assad isn't the bulwark against sectarianism some have made him out to be. He even has a track record of encouraging sectarianism in other parts of the Middle East when it suited Syrian interests, supporting some Sunni groups that've carried out attacks in Iraq and Lebanon. Nevertheless, your assertions reek of conspiracy-addled nonsense. How anyone, let alone someone who supposedly identifies as a revolutionary socialist, can reduce something as wide and diverse as an entire movement to the schemes of a single organization, is baffling.


The imperialist Euro-Settler "Left" and the pan-European EU-groupie "Left" love murderous Salafi-Fascists on the payroll of their white Israeli Zionist brothers.

Now that you've gotten that out of your system:


I prefer the political extremism of Assad over religious extremism.

The above quote was made by one Ayoub Kara, a member of the Israeli parliament from the Likud party, to the Christian Science Monitor a couple years back. I would gladly offer up more examples similar to this that reflect the attitudes of prominent figures within Israel's political and military establishment, should you request them.

[adipocere]

Nevertheless, you're assertions reek of conspiracy-addled nonsense. How anyone, let alone someone who supposedly identifies as a revolutionary socialist, can reduce something as wide and diverse as an entire movement to the schemes of a single organization, is baffling.

You know, your assertions sound like they are underwritten by the fucking US Department of State. Do you even realize how absurd you sound, shilling for mercenaries at this point? I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you (and a couple others) have swallowed all this nonsense about organic grassroots revolution/freedom fighters hook line and sinker and that you don't have some ulterior motive for maintaining this ridiculous narrative - but don't go trying to ridicule the comparatively logical opinions of other people when your own position reeks of bullshit. Seriously, If you're not getting paid for it than you should be.

[Sasha]

so this are all "mercenaries"?


Protests against ISIS, January 3, 2014

Posted on January 3, 2014 (http://syriafreedomforever.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/protests-against-isis-january-3-2014/)
Many protests have taken place today against the Islamic State of Iraq and Sham (ISIS) or Da3ech. Its attacks on revolutionaries, in addition to its authoritarian practices and reactionary ideology, have nurtured the anger of the Syrian revolutionary masses.
Chants “Assad and Da3ech are one” or ” Da3ech, get out” have become widely used for a while now in liberated areas of Syria.
Here are some videos and pictures of today’s protest:
ISIS men firing on a protest against them in Takharim village, in Idlib governorate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RysoFaEpROk
Massaknat, Aleppo against ISIS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee5Zbe_3bXc&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Aleppo, against ISIS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSao-8PHSrs&feature=youtu.be
Salah Eddin neighborhood, Aleppo


Arrest of a ISIS commander by FSA in the city of Atareb. Latest news were saying that FSA kicked out ISIS from Atareb in Idlib and the Syrian regime shelled Atareb immediately after (http://yallasouriya.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/jadbantha-fsa-kicked-out-isis-from-atareb-in/)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1iUVsjgBwY&feature=youtu.be
Demonstration in Achrafieh, Aleppo


http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1490699_600279613361181_743026412_o.jpg?w=300&h=199 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1490699_600279613361181_743026412_o.jpg) http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/1486686_699841003367526_1012527924_n.jpg?w=300&h=200 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/1486686_699841003367526_1012527924_n.jpg) http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/1507237_699855903366036_1846324103_o.jpg?w=300&h=199 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/1507237_699855903366036_1846324103_o.jpg)
http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1493346_599323173456825_643947897_o-1.jpg?w=300&h=199 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1493346_599323173456825_643947897_o-1.jpg) http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1492667_600359120019897_602674604_o-1.jpg?w=300&h=199 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1492667_600359120019897_602674604_o-1.jpg)
Kafranbel, latest news: FSA Brigade freed “Mohammad AlSalloum” the editor and owner of “AL-GHERBAL” magazine. and they’ve given ISIS 24 hour notice to withdraw from the region.
http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/1514548_699825736702386_1298061517_n.jpg?w=300&h=200 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/1514548_699825736702386_1298061517_n.jpg)
http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1501364_583238248436286_1855233658_o.jpg?w=199&h=300 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1501364_583238248436286_1855233658_o.jpg)
Protest in Binnish today against ISIS where protesters are paying tribute to Ahrar al-Sham men killed by ISIS : « We are all the shaheed Abu Rayyan » and « We want justice against the murderers of Abu Obeida al Binnishi »
http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/1545048_1428747177361832_1367028675_n.jpg?w=300&h=168 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/1545048_1428747177361832_1367028675_n.jpg)
Demonstration in Maarat Al-Nouman (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/maaratalnouman), Idlib (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/idlib), denouncing the actions and authoritarianism of ISIS, mourning the assassination of Dr Abu Rayyan by this latter, and demanding the unity of the revolutionaries
http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1512628_1443441309202387_1276289860_n.jpg?w=300&h=225 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1512628_1443441309202387_1276289860_n.jpg) http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1546089_1443441262535725_588746826_n.jpg?w=300&h=225 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1546089_1443441262535725_588746826_n.jpg) http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1525144_1443441235869061_727060672_n.jpg?w=300&h=225 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1525144_1443441235869061_727060672_n.jpg) http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/544160_1443441139202404_1980108678_n.jpg?w=300&h=225 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/544160_1443441139202404_1980108678_n.jpg) http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1544971_1443441129202405_115676427_n.jpg?w=300&h=225 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1544971_1443441129202405_115676427_n.jpg) http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1521285_1443441132535738_953982133_n.jpg?w=300&h=225 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1521285_1443441132535738_953982133_n.jpg) http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1538838_1443441102535741_1733752055_n.jpg?w=300&h=225 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1538838_1443441102535741_1733752055_n.jpg) http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1506567_1443441052535746_257160338_n.jpg?w=300&h=225 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1506567_1443441052535746_257160338_n.jpg) http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1011966_1443441032535748_1751678177_n.jpg?w=300&h=225 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1011966_1443441032535748_1751678177_n.jpg) http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1544946_1443441019202416_1025893934_n.jpg?w=300&h=225 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1544946_1443441019202416_1025893934_n.jpg) http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1501668_1443441029202415_1931404616_n.jpg?w=300&h=225 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1501668_1443441029202415_1931404616_n.jpg)
Updates, January 4 2014, demonstration against ISIS Aleppo
http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1476554_636277056435254_2080794193_n.jpg?w=300&h=261 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1476554_636277056435254_2080794193_n.jpg)
Da3ch (ISIS) our revolution is against every oppressor
http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1525667_636276826435277_109677362_n.jpg?w=300&h=290 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/1525667_636276826435277_109677362_n.jpg)
Da3ech, the Syrian people will not be humiliated
Update January 5 2013
liberation of the city of Harem from Da3ech and discovery of a massacre committed by this latter


Demonstration in Raqqa demanding the departure of Da3ech


Demonstration against Da3ch in 3Adnan and saluting FSA
Video by Orient TV against ISIS:
تسقط داعش

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fLpGqkytZU¨ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fLpGqkytZU%C2%A8)

Previous demonstrations against ISIS these past few weeks have also occurred for example in Maarat Al-Nouman (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/maaratalnouman), Idlib (https://www.facebook.com/hashtag/idlib), a demonstration took place on December 27 2013 calling for all the opposition forces to unite and condemning the arbitrary detention of activists and residents. Demonstrators also called for the release of all those detained by ISIS (Islamic State of Iraq and Syria).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOD9NBZofbU
http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/1536665_652816918104102_1899435826_n.jpg?w=300&h=168 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/1536665_652816918104102_1899435826_n.jpg)
“The majority of us have become wanted by two states ( the Assad regime and ISIS)”
Picture of a Kafranbel protester, after ISIS attacked their media office, the banner says “overthrow Da3ech (ISIS), raped Kafranbel” December 29 2013
http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/1472883_260463404111143_940822061_n.jpg?w=300&h=213 (http://syriafreedomforever.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/1472883_260463404111143_940822061_n.jpg)



source: http://syriafreedomforever.wordpress.com/2014/01/03/protests-against-isis-january-3-2014/

[Tim Cornelis]

What really bothers me is that some try to paint a monolithic picture of the armed opposition. Or, say refer to them as 'the so-called "rebels"' as if not agreeing with the ideals of armed opposition disqualifies them as "rebels." Or, saying there was no primarily non-violent protests initially until lethal violence by the state was initiated. Or, suggest as if armed opposition is illegitimate.

There's a spectrum of secular - moderate Islamism - 'national' Jihadi Islamism - (International) Salafi Jihadism.

YPG falls in the first category.

The FSA falls in the first two categories, but most secular members are members of moderate Islamist groups like the Farooq brigades so their influence is small. Then the Turkmen Brigades and Liwaa al-Umma are likewise moderate.

The national Jihadis would be the Islamic Front, whom want an Islamic state but have no international aspirations.

The last want to establish a Caliphate and are the most extremist (ISIS).

Of course, the Islamists warrant no support whatsoever, but this is another discussion. The black-and-white narrative some seek to establish is disingenuous.


These are videos released by Liwa al-Tawhid from last year:

9m6qqZsNQn0
kJ9s_kcL9Dk

What's that in the corner I see? Doesn't look like a black flag to me. Jeepers! It's the spread wings and colors of the FSA.

Hey, look, it's Liwa al-Tawhid's Aleppo commander Abdul-Aziz Salameh:


http://goldandguns.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/image-396.png

Hate to break the news, but it looks like Liwa Al-Tawhid literally fought under the banner of the FSA.



No, the symbol used by the Liwaa Al-Tawhid is the symbol of… unsurprisingly, the Liwaa Al-Tawhid:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5b/Tawhid_Brigades.jpg

The symbol of the FSA is this:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTO6VN9kGNF4j18E_TtMfq3It7ZHAvTd zG4ZxLnwRuP_cORTRNX



"Heroic Martyrs of Al-Nusra Front, the Monotheism Brigades, and the Army of Islam Rain Divine Fury Upon the Apostates of ISIL"

This should be the thread's title.

Isn't the ISIS a merger of Jabhat al-Nusra and the Islamic State of Iraq?

[Sasha]

Isn't the ISIS a merger of Jabhat al-Nusra and the Islamic State of Iraq?

no, the origins of ISIS lie in the JTJ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#History

though a internatioanlist faction that separated from jabhat al-Nusra did join ISIS at some point.

edit:


the Islamic State of Iraq (ISOI)
In April 2013, the leader of the Islamic State of Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq), Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_al-Baghdadi), released a recorded audio message on the Internet, in which he announced that Jabhat Al-Nusra was an extension of Al Qaeda in Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Qaeda_in_Iraq) in Syria.[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#cite_note-globalpost-18) Al-Baghdadi said that Abu Mohammed al-Joulani (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abu_Mohammed_al-Joulani&action=edit&redlink=1), the leader of Jabhat Al-Nusra, had been dispatched by the group along with a group of men to Syria to meet with pre-existing cells in the country. Al-Baghdadi also said that the Islamic State of Iraq (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq) had provided Jabhat Al-Nusra with the plans and strategy needed for the Syrian Civil War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Civil_War) and had been providing them funding on a monthly basis.[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#cite_note-memri-75) Al-Baghdadi declared that the two groups were officially merging under the name "Islamic State of Iraq and Al-Sham." (ISOIS)[75] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#cite_note-memri-75)
The next day the leader of Al Nusra, Abu Mohammed al-Joulani (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Abu_Mohammed_al-Joulani&action=edit&redlink=1), denied that any such merger exists, while reiterating that Al Qaeda and Al Nusra Front are still allies. al-Jawlani is quoted as saying "We inform you that neither the al-Nusra command nor its consultative council, nor its general manager were aware of this announcement. It reached them via the media and if the speech is authentic, we were not consulted."[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#cite_note-naharnet-19)

Nusra schisms
In May 2013, a video was released on the Internet showing masked men publicly execute three captured Alawite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alawite) officers in the eastern town of Raqqa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raqqa), the men identified themselves as being members of the Islamic State of Iraq and Al-Sham.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#cite_note-reuters170513-20) In the same month, Reuters (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuters) reported that the leader of the Islamic State of Iraq Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_al-Baghdadi) had traveled from Iraq to Syria's Aleppo Governorate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleppo_Governorate) province and began attempting to take over the leadership of al-Nusra. There were media reports that the group had suffered a split, with many of al-Nusra's foreign fighters operating under the banner of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant) (ISOIL), and many Syrian Nusra fighters leaving the group to join other Islamist brigades.[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#cite_note-reuters170513-20)[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#cite_note-telegraph190513-21) In June 2013, Al Jazeera reported that it had obtained a letter written by Al-Qaeda leader Ayman Al-Zawahiri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayman_Al-Zawahiri), addressed to both Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi and Abu Mohammad al-Jawlani, in which he ruled against the merger of the two organisations and appointed an emissary to oversee relations between them and put an end to tensions.[76] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#cite_note-76) Later in the same month, an audio message from Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_al-Baghdadi) was released in which he rejects Zawahiri's ruling and declared that the merger of the two organisations into the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant was going ahead. This sequence of events is said to have caused much confusion and division amongst members of Al-Nusra.[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#cite_note-aljazeera150613-22)
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#Relationships_with_other_Revolutionary _Forces

[Tim Cornelis]

no, the origins of ISIS lie in the JTJ: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#History

though a internatioanlist faction that separated from jabhat al-Nusra did join ISIS at some point.

edit:

source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front#Relationships_with_other_Revolutionary _Forces

Nevertheless, Press TV (don't know how reliable they are in this regard, but I suppose there's no reason for this to be inaccurate) report that Jabhat Al Nusra and ISIS are fighting against the Free Syrian Army (and the Al Nusra calling for a cease fire).

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=901_1389131707

[IBleedRed]

Actually, initial protests began after police in Daraa arrested and tortured teenagers and young boys who'd written anti-regime graffiti, based in large part on slogans inspired by the Tunisian and Egyptian revolutions. When family members and other protesters took to the streets, they only appealed for small-scale reforms. The government's response was to open fire on the demonstrators with live ammunition. The events unfolding in Daraa in 2011 sparked similar expressions of anti-regime sentiment, resulting in protests in coastal cities like Baniyas and Latkaia, as well as in industrial centers like Homs. When the military and security forces escalated the scale of their repression, the demands put forward by the movement radicalized around the ouster of Assad himself, eventually taking up of arms in response to the government's 'scorched earth' strategy.

That is the "official" story, yes. It seems unlikely to me, however, that the Islamists who have been laying dormant for years, like a virus, would not have immediately seized the opportunity and usurped any popular uprising for their own ends.

In fact, that is what happened. When you have entire armed groups made up of almost entirely of non-Syrians, you know it isn't really a "popular uprising". There are Chechens, Saudis, Bosnians, Tunisians, and many more in Syria fighting for their "Syrian" revolution :laugh:

Islamism was a platform of the "peaceful protestors" from the very beginning.


You and others often refer to the sectarian character of the uprising, yet you forget that these divisions were encouraged first and foremost by the regime in order to maintain itself in power for decades. These are not natural divergences, nor were they inevitable. They've been cultivated by governments in the region for over a century, to the detriment of popular uprisings like those we've seen in Syria and elsewhere. Never mind that Christians, Alawites, and Druze have not fared much better under the Assad family than the rest of the population, or that the regime fostered the rise of a Sunni middle class so as to broaden its social base. It also doesn't help to paint the Alawites with the same brush as the Syrian ruling-class. While Alawites dominate many prominent positions within the government, some of the more vocal critics of the regime have come from the Alawite community; it is not unusual, therefore, to see Alawite opposition members imprisoned, even persecuted. Wrong. These sectarian divisions precede the Assad government. When the French took over Syria nearly a century ago, they exacerbated already-existing sectarian divisions. Alawites used to be an underclass in Syria: poorly treated, abused, landless peasants. It was not until Hafez Assad took over that they even began to become treated like actual human beings worthy of participating in the government apparatus.

I guarantee you that the overwhelming majority of people from minority groups do not support your so-called "rebels". :)

You are also forgetting to mention the many large rallies that have been in support of the government. All you need to do is look at "rebel" administered areas to see why.

Whatever wrongs the Assad government has committed, at least women could go to university and didn't have to wear a headcovering. At least Christians lived in peace with Muslims.

Also, Christians in Syria have fared pretty well, especially compared to their brethren across the region. Syria has no state religion, after all.


It is easily demonstrated, then, that Assad isn't the bulwark against sectarianism some have made him out to be. He even has a track record of encouraging sectarianism in other parts of the Middle East when it suited Syrian interests, supporting some Sunni groups that've carried out attacks in Iraq and Lebanon. Nevertheless, you're assertions reek of conspiracy-addled nonsense. How anyone, let alone someone who supposedly identifies as a revolutionary socialist, can reduce something as wide and diverse as an entire movement to the schemes of a single organization, is baffling.
There's no "conspiracy theory". Islamic extremists (which do exist and abound in the region) want to seize power for their own ends. There isn't one organization, but many hundreds. If only it was just one, it'd be easy to defeat.

[khad]

Of course, the Islamists warrant no support whatsoever, but this is another discussion. The black-and-white narrative some seek to establish is disingenuous.



No, the symbol used by the Liwaa Al-Tawhid is the symbol of… unsurprisingly, the Liwaa Al-Tawhid:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5b/Tawhid_Brigades.jpg

The symbol of the FSA is this:

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTO6VN9kGNF4j18E_TtMfq3It7ZHAvTd zG4ZxLnwRuP_cORTRNX

You are the one being disingenuous. Their Aleppo Branch used both, as their commander is depicted with both here:

http://goldandguns.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/image-396.png

Since joining the Islamic Front, Liwa al-Tawheed has dropped the red, green, and black for the black and green:

https://www.facebook.com/lewaaltawhead.coordination

[khad]

Nevertheless, Press TV (don't know how reliable they are in this regard, but I suppose there's no reason for this to be inaccurate) report that Jabhat Al Nusra and ISIS are fighting against the Free Syrian Army (and the Al Nusra calling for a cease fire).

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=901_1389131707
Outdated info. Get with the times.
http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/18130/


Al-Nusra Front: Schadenfreude

On the afternoon of January 5, reports surfaced that al-Nusra Front had seized the town of Dana, taking advantage of the disarray in ISIS’ ranks. But Al-Akhbar’s sources denied that al-Nusra had taken full control of the town, saying that an agreement was reached whereby ISIS hands over its posts to al-Nusra Front.

Either way, al-Nusra Front, which is designated by many as a terrorist group, has rushed to take advantage of the situation, calling on foreign jihadists who had defected to ISIS to rejoin its ranks. Al-Nusra has proposed itself as a mediator, when it is actually on the side of Army of the Mujahideen.

In the same vein, an opposition source told Al-Akhbar, “It is a known fact that the Chechens would rather die than hand themselves over to the FSA, while al-Nusra Front represents an acceptable party for them to surrender to, in preparation to be reabsorbed into its ranks.”

It is also worth noting that ISIS’ ultra extremist brand has helped promote among some the notion that al-Nusra is a moderate Islamist front, when this is definitely not the case. Interestingly, jihadist sources reported on January 5 that Abu Mohammed al-Golani, emir of al-Nusra Front, has proposed an initiative to ISIS whereby the two groups would unite under one banner and one leadership, in a formation to be called al-Qaeda in the Levant.

You can clearly see the context of their "peace offering" here--it's really more of a corporate takeover scenario.


Army of the Mujahideen: We Will Not Fight al-Nusra Front

Army of the Mujahideen sources were keen to stress that they are not an “extremist group,” while a number of media outlets sought to portray the army as a moderate faction “similar to the FSA.” But this is inconsistent with the message carried by a January 4 statement.

Signed by the political bureau of Army of the Mujahideen, “Statement Two” said: “We distance ourselves from any confrontation with our brothers in al-Nusra Front, or any other jihadi faction, whether through direct fighting or in coordination with any faction against them.”

The statement then added, “We call on the honest ones among our brothers the mujahideen in ISIS to defect and join their brothers in Syria against the Nusairi [derogatory term for Alawi] Assad regime.”All this amounts to is a struggle between rival al-Qaeda branches for money, resources, and recruits. Many ISIS personnel will still be there; they'll just be rebranded under the nominal leadership of Nusra Front and other such groups.

[ckaihatsu]

Why do you think this? What is the supporting evidence for this belief beyond your opinion that Muslims are worse than backwards?

Devrim


Al-Shabab terrorists find inspiration in Kenya mall attack

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvdBNKswijE

[khad]

More photographic evidence of the Liwa al-Tawhid Aleppo branch fighting under the banner of the FSA.

http://blogs.montrealgazette.com/2012/09/20/photo-of-the-day-september-20-2012-suspected-syrian-police-officer-faces-bleak-future/

http://postmediamontreal.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/514020042.jpg
A suspected pro-Syrian regime policeman (C) sits amidst members of Liwa al-Tawhid rebel group following his arrest in Aleppo on September 20, 2012. More than 29,000 people have been killed in violence in Syria since an anti-government uprising broke out in March last year meeting with a bloody crackdown, a human rights group said. MIGUEL MEDINA/AFP/GettyImages

http://i.imgur.com/x6PHcOV.jpg
Abdulkadir Salih, the leader of Liwa al-Tawhid, the main armed rebel group in Syria's embattled city of Aleppo, gives a press conference on September 4, 2012 in Istanbul. Turkey is home to more than 80,000 refugees registered in Turkish camps set up along the 910-kms border, as well as the rebel leadership. AFP PHOTO / BULENT KILIC (Photo credit should read MUSTAFA OZER/AFP/GettyImages)

[Sasha]

You are the one being disingenuous. Their Aleppo Branch used both, as their commander is depicted with both here:

http://goldandguns.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/image-396.png

Since joining the Islamic Front, Liwa al-Tawheed has dropped the red, green, and black for the black and green:

https://www.facebook.com/lewaaltawhead.coordination

Sigh, the 3 pointed star flag is the historic flag of the Syrian republic (as established under the french mandate) its commonly known as the Syrian independence flag, its used by all nationalist opposition factions, from Islamist to revolutionary leftist.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Syria
A simple google on "syria 3 stars" would have told you that.

[khad]

Suquor al-Sham has also made a similar transition, from back when they were with the FSA (with their fucking leader as a member of Idriss's SMC):

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/archive/c/cc/20130309234443!Suqour_al-Sham.jpeg
q2g2chF0eyA

To their more vowedly salafi banner seen today:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/cc/Suqour_al-Sham.jpeg/200px-Suqour_al-Sham.jpeg
http://sphotos-f.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/537717_491593557544258_1280982621_n.jpg
Ycp0jFQHP4I

[khad]

Sigh, the 3 pointed star flag is the historic flag of the Syrian republic (as established under the french mandate) its commonly known as the Syrian independence flag, its used by all nationalist opposition factions, from Islamist to revolutionary leftist.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Syria
A simple google on "syria 3 stars" would have told you that.
Then why does Liwa al-Tawheed's official official media no longer use it?
https://www.facebook.com/lewaaltawhead.coordination

Why did the Sham Falcons drop the red, green, and black colors when they joined the Islamic front? If it's so UNIVERSAL, shouldn't they have at least retained the colors when they dropped their allegiance to the FSA? Why did these Islamist militia groups feel a need to scrap and redesign their flags after their rejection of the SMC?

News flash: The 3-star flag is seen both in and outside of Syria as the official banner of the SMC/FSA led by Salim Idriss

[Tim Cornelis]

You are the one being disingenuous.

Either you're misinformed or you are being disingenuous.


Their Aleppo Branch used both, as their commander is depicted with both here:

http://goldandguns.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/image-396.png

I have already seen that picture. But both what? The non-FSA flag used by almost the whole of the (non-Jihadi) Syrian opposition (armed and unarmed)? Or the non-FSA symbol used exclusively by the Al-Tawhid Brigade. There are no other symbols.

They use the same colour and same flag, but they are not FSA-flags or colours. The opposition adopted the pre-Ba'athist Syrian nation flag and the FSA and Syrian Islamic Liberation Army, as well as the non-FSA Ahfad al-Rasul Brigade, which uses the same colours and flag despite having no allegiance to the FSA:

http://http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/07/Ahfad_al-Rasul_logo.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/07/Ahfad_al-Rasul_logo.jpg/200px-Ahfad_al-Rasul_logo.jpg


Since joining the Islamic Front, Liwa al-Tawheed has dropped the red, green, and black for the black and green:

https://www.facebook.com/lewaaltawhead.coordination

Yes I know.


Outdated info. Get with the times.
http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/18130/



You can clearly see the context of their "peace offering" here--it's really more of a corporate takeover scenario.

All this amounts to is a struggle between rival al-Qaeda branches for money, resources, and recruits. Many ISIS personnel will still be there; they'll just be rebranded under the nominal leadership of Nusra Front and other such groups.

That doesn't contradict my source though (and apparently is a day newer than yours, but maybe it's dated wrongly).

[khad]

I have already seen that picture. But both what? The non-FSA flag used by almost the whole of the (non-Jihadi) Syrian opposition (armed and unarmed)? Or the non-FSA symbol used exclusively by the Al-Tawhid Brigade. There are no other symbols.
I tire of your semantic games. While the flag originated in Syria's past, to assert that it hasn't been officially adopted by Salim Idriss's SMC is nothing short of a lie.

http://desinformado.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Salim-Idris-Ejercito-Libre-Sirio.jpg

The fact remains that while groups like Liwa al-Tawhid and Suquor al-Sham were at one point or another working for the FSA, and while they were doing so, they flew the flag of the "non-Jihadi" insurgency (officially adopted by the SMC) alongside their own banners sharing the same colors. The commander of the Sham Falcons was even in the SMC's financial committee, ffs.

Since the emergence of the Islamic front, this iconography has disappeared from those organizations.

[Tim Cornelis]

I tire of your semantic games.

That doesn't even make sense.


While the flag originated in Syria's past, to assert that it hasn't been officially adopted by Salim Idriss's SMC is nothing short of a lie.

No one's saying that. They have adopted it, amongst many others. Many of whom have also stopped using them.


The fact remains that while groups like Liwa al-Tawhid and Suquor al-Sham were at one point or another working for the FSA, and while they were doing so, they flew the flag of the "non-Jihadi" insurgency (officially adopted by the SMC) alongside their own banners sharing the same colors. The commander of the Sham Falcons was even in the SMC's financial committee, ffs.

I'm not saying they never cooperated or worked with each other, they still do.


Since the emergence of the Islamic front, this iconography has disappeared from those organizations.

Mostly, yes.

[khad]

That doesn't even make sense.

No one's saying that. They have adopted it, amongst many others. Many of whom have also stopped using them.


I have already seen that picture. But both what? The non-FSA flag used by almost the whole of the (non-Jihadi) Syrian opposition (armed and unarmed)? Or the non-FSA symbol used exclusively by the Al-Tawhid Brigade. There are no other symbols.
I'm through with your non-sense.

[Le Socialiste]

Wrong. These sectarian divisions precede the Assad government. When the French took over Syria nearly a century ago, they exacerbated already-existing sectarian divisions.

That's correct, which is why I said governments played on these divisions in the region throughout the last century or so. It is notable that sectarianism as we understand it didn't emerge until around the 18-19th centuries, when European powers took full advantage of Ottoman capitulations (ahdnames), stipulating the religious freedom and exemption from taxes that non-Muslims had to pay. Over time, the religious aspects of these laws diminished in favor of commercial interests. The Tanzimat reform period (1870s-90s), while intended to foster a pan-Ottoman identity, only exacerbated and contributed to the growing rifts emerging between certain communities. It wasn't until the collapse and subsequent dissolution of the empire, coupled with imperial land grabs and the formation of artificial nation-states, that sectarian differences really came to the fore. It goes without saying that French and British imperialism played on these divisions to the effect of strengthening their respective hands in the region. The Assad family, accordingly, utilized similar methods of manipulation over the course of its reign (as the last couple of years show, Assad has been more than willing to exacerbate sectarian differences in order to play different groups off one another and ensure that some remain firmly in the government's camp).

[Tim Cornelis]

I'm through with your non-sense.

That's not a contradiction, though I can see the miscommunication. Of course, the flag is formally used by the FSA, what I meant with non-FSA flag is that it's not solely an FSA flag. Like, for instance, a red flag used by the KKE and then flown by ANTARSYA, does not mean that ANTARSYA rallies, literally under the KKE flag, as it is a non-KKE flag used by the KKE (disregard that they would use different symbols on that flag).

[Raquin]

Sigh, the 3 pointed star flag is the historic flag of the Syrian republic (as established under the french mandate) its commonly known as the Syrian independence flag, its used by all nationalist opposition factions, from Islamist to revolutionary leftist.
A simple google on "syria 3 stars" would have told you that.
You're cute. In what universe would Syrian "revolutionary leftists" use the flag drawn for the French Mandate's "Republic" of Syria by the Colonial Authorities of the French Empire? That would make as much sense as the Viet Minh or the Vietnamese FNL using the flag of French Indochina, the Makhnovites using the Romanov Imperial Standard or the CNT-FAI using the Cross of Burgundy

[Sasha]

You're cute. In what universe would Syrian "revolutionary leftists" use the flag drawn for the French Mandate's "Republic" of Syria by the Colonial Authorities of the French Empire? That would make as much sense as the Viet Minh or the Vietnamese FNL using the flag of French Indochina, the Makhnovites using the Romanov Imperial Standard or the CNT-FAI using the Cross of Burgundy


hey nationalists are going to nationalist... why do hardline royalist here in the netherlands use the republican flag and only anti royalist fascists wave the royalist flag? (because the former royalist flag was used more recently by the ww2 collaborist party, history changes shit)
if you would have bothered to read my link you would have seen that the flag was used as the national flag of syria from 1932 to 58 and 61 to 63, which means its was used only 4 years under the french mandate during its transition to independence, the 12 years before that (since the fall of the ottoman empire) two different flags where used one with a fucking big french flag in it.
the red/white/black flag as still used in the area's held by the regime and its previous variations are strongly linked to pan-arabism and baathism as such it makes sense to use it as an statement of national liberation of the baathist regime, you saw exactly the same in lybia where insurgents and protesters of all factions used the pre gadaffi royalist flag even though non where royalist restorationists and iraqi kurdistan where its even illegal to fly the 1963 to 2008 national flags but where the pre 1963 flag (which has a Kurdish sun on it) can be flown equally with the current national flag.

[greenforest]

That's correct, which is why I said governments played on these divisions in the region throughout the last century or so. It is notable that sectarianism as we understand it didn't emerge until around the 18-19th centuries, when European powers took full advantage of Ottoman capitulations (ahdnames), stipulating the religious freedom and exemption from taxes that non-Muslims had to pay. Over time, the religious aspects of these laws diminished in favor of commercial interests. The Tanzimat reform period (1870s-90s), while intended to foster a pan-Ottoman identity, only exacerbated and contributed to the growing rifts emerging between certain communities. It wasn't until the collapse and subsequent dissolution of the empire, coupled with imperial land grabs and the formation of artificial nation-states, that sectarian differences really came to the fore. It goes without saying that French and British imperialism played on these divisions to the effect of strengthening their respective hands in the region. The Assad family, accordingly, utilized similar methods of manipulation over the course of its reign (as the last couple of years show, Assad has been more than willing to exacerbate sectarian differences in order to play different groups off one another and ensure that some remain firmly in the government's camp).

How so?

Was it intentional; and how did the British/French get one group of people to consider another group of people 'apostates' and/or 'heretics'?

[greenforest]

This story is one of many. Are you going to deny the murder of hundreds of Alawites that occurred in late August near Latakia?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/11/syrian-rebels-accused-killing-civilians-latakia

No. I also know international bodies have placed the majority of war crimes at the hands of the Assad government.



Maybe. But the lion's share of that lion's share are battlefield collateral. The Syrian military doesn't have very many surgical strike teams and crude artillery.

The recent barrel bombs on Aleppo were terror raids; designed to kill indiscriminately.



Maybe you and I have different definitions of "well-behaved"

I'm going by the definition that I've come to use regarding the region.

That Islamists have not hijacked the uprising with daily mass casualty car bombs as Iraq shows an insurgency, especially al-Nusra, that is not willing to carry out the same atrocities as the Iraqi insurgents.



In other words, the majority of Syrians

The last poll I read showed a majority of support for Assad; but the desertions and defections that eroded his military indicate strong opposition to his rule.




Says you. Let's look at how Christians are faring in Egypt (i.e getting murdered). And Egypt was alot less bloody and less controversial. Already, Christians have been fleeing Syria in droves since the "rebels" started this war three years ago. Many Islamist groups have expressed a desire for an Islamist-dominated Syria free of Christians.

This is not an uncommon point of view of the sunni extremist. They are, by all accounts, ravenous, bloodthirsty, genocidal vermin.

I never said Christians are treated well, but that a genocide against Christians is unlikely.

ISIS has made Iraqi Christians pay jizya rather than kill them as they do Shia, for instance.

I do not suspect Christians will be massacred in Syria if they are not being killed (as often) by ISIS in Iraq.

The MB are more likely to kill Christians in Egypt than insurgent groups in Syria if civil war breaks out between government and anti-government forces; the Brotherhood's messages justifying attacks foreshadow more to come.

[IBleedRed]

That's correct, which is why I said governments played on these divisions in the region throughout the last century or so. It is notable that sectarianism as we understand it didn't emerge until around the 18-19th centuries, when European powers took full advantage of Ottoman capitulations (ahdnames), stipulating the religious freedom and exemption from taxes that non-Muslims had to pay. Over time, the religious aspects of these laws diminished in favor of commercial interests. The Tanzimat reform period (1870s-90s), while intended to foster a pan-Ottoman identity, only exacerbated and contributed to the growing rifts emerging between certain communities. It wasn't until the collapse and subsequent dissolution of the empire, coupled with imperial land grabs and the formation of artificial nation-states, that sectarian differences really came to the fore. It goes without saying that French and British imperialism played on these divisions to the effect of strengthening their respective hands in the region. The Assad family, accordingly, utilized similar methods of manipulation over the course of its reign (as the last couple of years show, Assad has been more than willing to exacerbate sectarian differences in order to play different groups off one another and ensure that some remain firmly in the government's camp).

I agree with you to an extent, but not so much with that last part. Syria has generally been one of the few states in the region with a unified national identity. This is different from Lebanon, for example, where sectarian identity have always been more important than national identity. I've spoken to several Syrians and they all tell me the same thing: "We are Syrian first and foremost, we've always been Syrian first and foremost".

The situation has changed very much in the last few years, and the blame is on both sides. As it is, these sectarian tensions exist now, and so out of interest in protecting Christians and minorities, as I said, the "rebels" are worse.


No. I also know international bodies have placed the majority of war crimes at the hands of the Assad government. These international bodies are not impartial.


The recent barrel bombs on Aleppo were terror raids; designed to kill indiscriminately. Yes. This has been done before (e.g. bombings of Dresden in WW2. A nasty tactic, to be sure.


I'm going by the definition that I've come to use regarding the region.

That Islamists have not hijacked the uprising with daily mass casualty car bombs as Iraq shows an insurgency, especially al-Nusra, that is not willing to carry out the same atrocities as the Iraqi insurgents.
But they have. Car bombs have killed hundreds now, and I've already pointed out some of the massacres and atrocities committed by your rebels. You are talking against the facts, now.


The last poll I read showed a majority of support for Assad; but the desertions and defections that eroded his military indicate strong opposition to his rule.


There are now "rebels" deserting back to the Syrian Army!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10198632/Syria-disillusioned-rebels-drift-back-to-take-Assad-amnesty.html

The massive growth in the NDF suggests that you what you claim is false, as well. There are many Syrians opposed to Assad, for sure, but they are a much smaller group than those in support. That support might be simply out of the belief that he is the lesser of two evils.

Like I said, neither group is an ally of the radical left.


I never said Christians are treated well, but that a genocide against Christians is unlikely.

Not at all unlikely. And, so what, you're saying it's okay for them to mistreat the Christians?:confused:

ISIS has made Iraqi Christians pay jizya rather than kill them as they do Shia, for instance.


How merciful of them.:rolleyes:

[Radical Rambler]

I'm through with your non-sense.

One gets the impression from reading their drivel that the defenders of the murderous Western/Zionist/Arab Monarchy backed Salafi-Fascists argue so pathetically because they believe people are too stupid to see right through them. Like they have a belief that merely presenting something against the obvious is enough to persuade people to take a "middle of the road" position between their out-and-out support for these Wahabi-Contras, and the principled anti-imperialism position. They argue so desperately and pathetically simply to not lose ideological ground.

[Comrade Chernov]

I still don't see why so many are unwilling to even acknowledge the existence, it seems like, of the Kurds.

[Raquin]

I still don't see why so many are unwilling to even acknowledge the existence, it seems like, of the Kurds.
Mostly because of their affinity with the Zionists and the general lousyness of what is supposed to be their "national-liberation movement" in the last couple of decades.

[Devrim]

The Kurds are opposed to the Syrian Government, the FSA, and the islamist militants, so I find it difficult to support them along with another group.

The Kurds were allowed to take over the areas that they have by the Syrian government, thus allowing the Syrian army to deploy its forces to fight the rebels. I don't think that they are that opposed to the Syrian government. In fact prior to 1998 the PKK was funded by the Syrian state.

The form of Kurdish nationalism (Apoculuk) has, in its history, murdered members of other leftist groups, murdered workers, and taken part in ethnic cleansing of minority groups.


I still don't see why so many are unwilling to even acknowledge the existence, it seems like, of the Kurds.
Mostly because of their affinity with the Zionists and the general lousyness of what is supposed to be their "national-liberation movement" in the last couple of decades.

I think that this is pretty representative of what national liberation movements are. The Kurdish nationalist movement has, over its history, acted as a proxy force for all of the regional powers as well as the major international ones.

It offers nothing to the working class, but another nationalist gang to support in a spiral of ethnic/sectarian war.

Devrim

[GerrardWinstanley]

I think that this is pretty representative of what national liberation movements are. The Kurdish nationalist movement has, over its history, acted as a proxy force for all of the regional powers as well as the major international ones.

It offers nothing to the working class, but another nationalist gang to support in a spiral of ethnic/sectarian war.

DevrimI've seen no evidence of a sectarian element to the Kurdish insurgency. Nationalist perhaps the movement is entirely secular and besides, I think they have a legitimate claim to self-determination. The PKK is also regarded as an adversary to the US puppet leader Barzani in Iraqi Kurdistan (who, ironically, later became an ally to the reactionary Syrian opposition).

[Devrim]

I've seen no evidence of a sectarian element to the Kurdish insurgency.

What insurgency is that? They were given control of those areas by the state.

I never claimed that it was a sectarian movement today. What I said was this:


It offers nothing to the working class, but another nationalist gang to support in a spiral of ethnic/sectarian war.

Perhaps it is unclear, but I was characterizing the war as 'ethnic/sectarian', not the Kurdish nationalists. I characterized them as a 'nationalist gang'. Of course this current does have a history of making sectarian attacks against Asyrians, but I didn't claim they were doing it in this conflict.


Nationalist perhaps...

No, not perhaps, nationalist to the core.


...the movement is entirely secular

So what?


...and besides, I think they have a legitimate claim to self-determination.

Which is a completely bourgeois idea.


The PKK is also regarded as an adversary to the US puppet leader Barzani in Iraqi Kurdistan (who, ironically, later became an ally to the reactionary Syrian opposition).

The PKK tried as hard as it could to sell itself to Washington, and seemed deeply upset when the US refused outright to take them on as a client. It lost out on that. The PKK's relationship with the Barazanı clan is determined not by principles of any sort, but by realpolitik and as such can fluctuate with changes in the balance of regional power.

Devrim

[Raquin]

What do you mean, "syrian rebels and civilians kick out al-qaida group ISIS"? ISIS is not a rebel group now?The actual title of this thread should be "factional in-fighting between Al-Qaeda affiliated rebel warlords".Anyways, looks like the gains made in Aleppo by Al-Nusra and the Islamic Front have been offset by major ISI victories in Raqqa and all gains made in Idlib are about to be reversed and then some - ISIS are dispatching a fleet of T-72s, T-62s, BMPss and other reinforcements in that direction to relieve the hundreds of ISIS fighters already there.

SBEM7V5Z21o

In other words, this little civil war within a civil war is about to end with an ISIS victory.

Moderator note: edited to embed video

[GerrardWinstanley]

What insurgency is that? They were given control of those areas by the state.I think you're showing your ignorance. The Syrian government recognising the Kurdistan regional government was effectively a concession with YPG forces who captured Kurdish cities in the summer of 2012.
I never claimed that it was a sectarian movement today. What I said was this:
It offers nothing to the working class, but another nationalist gang to support in a spiral of ethnic/sectarian war.Perhaps it is unclear, but I was characterizing the war as 'ethnic/sectarian', not the Kurdish nationalists. I characterized them as a 'nationalist gang'. Of course this current does have a history of making sectarian attacks against Asyrians, but I didn't claim they were doing it in this conflict.But the People's Protection Units are completely absent from the conflict outside of the Kurdish-controlled North of the country and it is Turkey itself (http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/01/vanished-turkish-truck-state-secret.html) who is responsible for the influx of jihadists from the North Western border. What the Kurds have to do with the multiplicity of foreign-backed sectarian brigades in Syria is a mystery to me.
No, not perhaps, nationalist to the core.A massive exaggeration. The party is ideologically Marxist and they are not secessionists, but want regional autonomy. You can read up Ocalan's own words on this.
So what?You said the Kurds bore partial responsibility for the sectarian nature of the conflict even though you might not have called them sectarian outright. To blame the PKK for the targeting of Kurds, Alawites and Shias, even indirectly, is as absurd as blaming Saddam Hussein for the US-backed sectarian civil war that followed the invasion of Iraq
Which is a completely bourgeois idea.And this is just shallow dogma. The fact that class fundamentally underpins other social formations and systems of relations does not make the latter any less real. The Kurds in Turkey and Syria should be supported as a struggle of an oppressed people.
The PKK tried as hard as it could to sell itself to Washington, and seemed deeply upset when the US refused outright to take them on as a client. It lost out on that.Conspiracy theory
The PKK's relationship with the Barazanı clan is determined not by principles of any sort, but by realpolitik and as such can fluctuate with changes in the balance of regional power.I never said anything about principles. The bottom line is interests of the Iraqi KDP and the PKK do not intersect, least of all in Syria. It was only very recently Barzani was caught illicitly selling Iraqi oil (http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/01/12/345220/iraq-summons-turkey-envoy-over-kurd-oil/) to the PKK's sworn enemy in Turkey without the approval of Baghdad.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

What we see here is psycho and tim defending the syrian rebels for.... what reasons? No one here is claiming that any faction will lead the proletariat to victory nor do I see many rational people proclaiming Assad as the last anti-imperialist bastion in the middle east. So it seems that the defense of the rebels is out of some acknowledgement that a liberal democracy would be preferable to the Assad regime. Abstractly this is true, but only when we abstract it from the geopolitical context of the middle east, only when we abstract it from the possibility of the "revolutions" failure or even worse, its degeneration to a Colombia of the middle east which it already seems to have arrived at, only when we abstract it from the fact that the Muslim Brotherhood is a neo-liberal organization which will attack any remainder of social democracy left in Syria. And what would be the end result of this war? An Islamic republic at best, "like the one in Egypt" I vaguely recall one freedom fighter say to an enthusiastic interviewer associated with one of the trotskyite internationals. Oh and I remember how excited the tone of that article was, look we found a rebel that doesn't want a complete theocracy, joy oh joy our party line has been proven and the prophecy has been fulfilled! But behind that joy must have been the lingering dread that this upstanding example of secular moderation was in league with the worse of religious extremism. Let us not mind the fact that such a moderate islamic state would spell the death of the queer and christian proletarians. Of course there is a debate over to what extent they are in league with these elements and how powerful they are but I am not interested in the extange of articles whose merit is based on the date on which they are released. Truth is a relation of power and the hegemony of discourse, nothing more and nothing less. All this nitpickery of details has demonstrated is that there are factions of the left which are willing to take abstract positions on liberal democracy and stretch them to their absolute limit and beyond. For to them it is not a matter of the consequences of these positions, the bloodshed and violence and destruction imposed upon the people of Syria, it is the mere possibility of vindicating a theoretical position which matters. Facts do not exist except to be bended and let the dead bury the dead to quote an old wise man.

You all sicken me.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

It seems like both sides on this board are just going back and forth for abstract theoretical reasons at this point tbh. I actually read these threads just for the ridiculous arguments and the attempts to paint huge segments of a population as this or that based on one or two images someone lifted off some obscure rebel/regime support site lol. I doubt anyone in Syria gives a shit what psycho or khad think

[Raquin]

I doubt anyone in Syria gives a shit what psycho or khad think
Do you? Hundreds of Syrian "opposition" groups have been whoring themselves out for facebook likes. For example:
https://www.facebook.com/lewaaltawhead.coordination

Twitter too:
https://twitter.com/SQORALSHAM

[khad]

Well, it looks like the "rebels" have seriously overestimated their capabilities. The latest from Raqqa indicates that ISIL is in full control and is mopping up by liquidating prisoners.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10568223/Islamists-execute-up-to-100-rivals-as-Raqqa-falls-from-control-of-Western-backed-rebels.html


Islamist rebels in Syria have executed up to 100 fighters from a rival group near the city of Raqqa, as it becomes increasingly unclear who has the upper hand in the civil war.

The al Qaeda-linked Islamist State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) executed dozens of rival Islamists over the last two days as the group recaptured most territory it had lost in the northeastern Syrian province.

One activist said up to 100 fighters from the Nusra Front, another al Qaeda affiliate, and the Ahrar al-Sham brigade were killed. They had been captured by ISIL in the town of Tel Abyad, on the border with Turkey.

"About 70 bodies, most shot in the head, were collected and sent to the Raqqa National hospital," the activist said.

"Many of those executed had been wounded in the fighting. The fact that Nusra Front and Ahrar al-Sham are ideologically similar to the ISIL did not matter," he added.Islamic/Nusra Front has also been put on their heels in Aleppo, where ISIL just executed another 60 northeast of the city after capturing Al-Bab. Another 14 were executed in Homs.
http://gulfnews.com/in-focus/syria/jihadists-seize-town-in-syria-s-aleppo-execute-60-monitor-1.1277129


Beirut: The jihadist Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isil) has seized a town in Syria’s Aleppo province, and executed 60 people in other areas, a monitor said on Monday.

The advance by the group in the country’s turbulent north comes after 10 days of fighting pitting moderate and Islamist opposition forces against the Al Qaida-inspired organisation that has killed nearly 700 people.

“Isil on Monday seized control of the town of Al Bab, northeast of Aleppo city, and took dozens of civilians and fighters prisoner,” said Rami Abdul Rahman of the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights.

“The jihadists called via loudspeakers on the minarets of local mosques for residents to hand over their weapons because Isil had come to apply Islamic law,” he said.ISIL has now opened a special recruiting office in Aleppo intended to pick up defectors from the Islamic Front:
http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13921023000314

I guess if there's any lesson to be learned from this, it's that you shouldn't unleash a caged lion unless you know exactly what you're going to do with him. This will end very badly.

[Sasha]

That last sentence is pretty funny considering that Assad invited Al-Qaeda originally into the country....

[IBleedRed]

That last sentence is pretty funny considering that Assad invited Al-Qaeda originally into the country....
Nice sources bro

[Devrim]

I think you're showing your ignorance. The Syrian government recognising the Kurdistan regional government was effectively a concession with YPG forces who captured Kurdish cities in the summer of 2012.

That's funny because I distinctly remember watching this on TV at the time. The Syrian army withdraw after ceremonially lowering the flag, and shaking hands with the Kurdish nationalist. Government officials are still working with the YPG forces today.

If I were you, I would check your sources.


A massive exaggeration. The party is ideologically Marxist and they are not secessionists, but want regional autonomy. You can read up Ocalan's own words on this.

This too is wrong. Of course there are many organisations which claim to be Marxist. It doesn't mean that there is anything communist about them in any way. In the case of the PKK though, this is not the case. They don't claim to be Marxists at all, and haven't done for about a decade.

If I were you, I would check your sources.


Conspiracy theory

The PKK through PJAK tried to make overtures to the US state prior to 2009. Certainly there was a point where the PKK was receiving arms, again through PJAK. There is certainly nothing of a conspiracy theory about this at all, and both the PKK and PJAK were quite open about it at the time openly expressing their wish to be an "agent of the United States".


If I were you, I would check your sources.


You said the Kurds bore partial responsibility for the sectarian nature of the conflict even though you might not have called them sectarian outright.

Actually what I said was this:


It offers nothing to the working class, but another nationalist gang to support in a spiral of ethnic/sectarian war.

As I have already explained what I meant in case it wasn't clear I will presume you are just distorting what I said to strengthen your argument.

Let's be very clear. The character of the civil war is ethnic/sectarian. The character of the Kurdish nationalists is nationalist.


To blame the PKK for the targeting of Kurds, Alawites and Shias, even indirectly,

But then I didn't blame them for this. The Kurdish nationalists have not, as far as I know, engaged in sectarian behaviour in Syria. Indeed if anything they have made a deliberate attempt to be open to certain other minorities. This may have something to do with the fact that the PKK had established a pretty terrible reputation amongst Assyrians due to in involvement in ethnic cleansing of Asyrian villages in Turkey in the past. In addition to that they also at one point had a very hostile attitude towards Alevis which bordered on open chauvinism. They have made efforts though to distance themselves from this past.

Although they have not been involved in sectarian attacks in Syria, the very fact of setting up an ethnic militia and quasi-state apparatus does, I feel, add to the general breakdown of and fragmentation in Syria today, and as such plays its part, which I am not claiming is the major part, but merely a small part, in the descent of the country into general ethnic/sectarian war.


The Kurds in Turkey and Syria should be supported as a struggle of an oppressed people.

What about Kurds in Iran, and Iraq? Don't they fit into your grand geo-political plans for the region.

In reality this support for Kurdish nationalist groups comes from exactly the same urge as the support for the 'rebellion' or for Assad. It is just another attempt, albeit with slightly more leftist rhetoric, to turn really situations where workers are being massacred into a sort of football game where the left picks sides to 'support'.

Devrim

[ckaihatsu]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_y8qVISwIN0

[Sasha]

Nice sources bro

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2013/aug/19/al-qaeda-rat-line-from-syria-to-iraq-turns-back-ag

[Le Socialiste]

Do you? Hundreds of Syrian "opposition" groups have been whoring themselves out for facebook likes. For example:

I was holding off on saying anything in the hopes that another mod or admin would say something about this, but seeing that no one has - please refrain from using sexist language like the word above. It really has no place on this site.

[Raquin]

That last sentence is pretty funny considering that Assad invited Al-Qaeda originally into the country....

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2013/aug/19/al-qaeda-rat-line-from-syria-to-iraq-turns-back-ag
I've heard this line before and it's nothing more than crude and baseless US State Department propaganda. Then again if you understood the nuances of Middle Eastern geopolitics you wouldn't be a cheerleader for that imperialist-molded monstrosity called the "Syrian" "Opposition".

During the first two years of the insurgency, from 2003 until the Shia al-Jaafari and the Dawa Party government came to power in 2005, the Syrian Government played junior partner to it's closest ally, Iran, and helped them support various anti-occupation Shia armed groups and political parties like the Sadrist Mahdi Army and the Dawa Party. The groups they supported stood in direct opposition to the Iraqi Baathist and Sunni insurgents. After the pro-Iranian(and pro-Syrian and pro-Hezbollah) Dawa Party came to power in 2005 they shifted their support to the Iraqi government and pro-government Shia militias at war with the Sunni Takfiri insurgents like al-Qaeda in Iraq and Iraqi Baathists. When the al-Maliki government replaced al-Jaafari's, Syria's support for the Iraqi government grew even further.

To imply that Bashshar Assad supported Sunni Takfiris in Iraq is simply ludicrous. Especially considering that at the same time Assad was supposedly training and smuggling Sunni Takfiris into Iraq(to fight his own allies, no less), these same Takfiris associated with al-Qaeda were waging a terrorist campaign against his government(precisely because Assad's Syrian Arab Army was cracking down on Sunni Takfiris that were stationed on the Iraq-Syria border). Damascus alone was attacked by them in April 2004, June 2006, September 2006, and bombed in September 2008 and December 2009.


I was holding off on saying anything in the hopes that another mod or admin would say something about this, but seeing that no one has - please refrain from using sexist language like the word above. It really has no place on this site.
"Sexism or gender discrimination is prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender.[1] Sexist attitudes may stem from traditional stereotypes of gender roles,[2][3] and may include the belief that a person of one sex is intrinsically superior to a person of the other.[4]"
The noun "whore" has two meanings. It can mean prostitute, or promiscuous woman. The former, prostitute, is a noun of common gender, since both male and female prostitutes are just called "prostitute". The latter meaning is clearly sexist, for obvious reasons. The former meaning(which is clearly the one I was going for), cannot, by definition, be sexist, unless you're some sorts of Men's Rights Activist that considers it sexist to imply men can be prostitutes even though male prostitution is a widely observed and documented phenomenon. So I don't really see any basis in your objection.

[khad]

Well, it's official. ISIL has achieved a decisive victory in Raqqa, but we already knew this from the reports of Nusra/Islamic Front fighters being executed by the hundreds over the past several days. The "rebels" have now withdrawn behind Syrian Army units, who are now leading the defense against ISIL.

http://syriahr.com/en/index.php?option=com_news&nid=1330&Itemid=2&task=displaynews#.UtWwFtzH2xQ

There is also a negotiation between ISIL and Ahrar al-Sham and Suquor al-Sham in Idlib. More on this later.

[Raquin]

ISIS has apparently killed a significant part of Liwa Al-Tawhid's(the biggest "rebel group" in and around Aleppo and the main faction of same Islamic Front which started this war against ISIS) leadership in an IED attack in Aleppo. That's funny, their old leader was just killed in November along with his intelligence chief in an airstrike in Aleppo too I think, or maybe in the countryside around Aleppo. They just can't get a break, can they?

And apparently, the Kuwaiti-sponsored Ahrar al-Sham and the Qatari/Bahraini-sponsored Suqour al-Sham, the Islamic Front's main players in Idlib and Hama Governorates, have set up an arbitration committee with ISIS to negotiate their capitulation to ISIS in Idlib and Hama.
http://www.hanein.info/vb/image/imgcache/2014/01/238.jpg:large

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Pretty interesting, it seems uncomfortably similar to leftist sectarian fighting from the past century. Are there any meaningful ideological differences between the groups or is it just competition amongst their foreign backers?

[Comrade Chernov]

What about Kurds in Iran, and Iraq? Don't they fit into your grand geo-political plans for the region.

In reality this support for Kurdish nationalist groups comes from exactly the same urge as the support for the 'rebellion' or for Assad. It is just another attempt, albeit with slightly more leftist rhetoric, to turn really situations where workers are being massacred into a sort of football game where the left picks sides to 'support'.

Devrim

So we're going to ignore the plight of an oppressed people just because we don't know who to support in a civil war between two undesirable sides and an actually desirable one who no-one wants to acknowledge?

There's no Left in Syria, Devrim. There's no workers' movement to overthrow Assad. There's no reason for us to care. Assad's government is a puppet of imperialist Russia, and the islamist rebels are puppets of the imperialist United Nations.

[khad]

So we're going to ignore the plight of an oppressed people just because we don't know who to support in a civil war between two undesirable sides and an actually desirable one who no-one wants to acknowledge?

There's no Left in Syria, Devrim. There's no workers' movement to overthrow Assad. There's no reason for us to care. Assad's government is a puppet of imperialist Russia, and the islamist rebels are puppets of the imperialist United Nations.
What organization are you a part of? If you are part of an organization, does your organization reserve half of its leadership roles to those registered as workers and peasants in occupational status?

Whatever criticisms one may have for the Syrian communists and their support of the Syrian Arab Republic, it's pretty laughable coming from you.

And if you support the PKK, why not the little Guevarist foco out of Latakia that wants to take back Hatay?

[Comrade Chernov]

What organization are you a part of? If you are part of an organization, does your organization reserve half of its leadership roles to those registered as workers and peasants in occupational status?

Whatever criticisms one may have for the Syrian communists and their support of the Syrian Arab Republic, it's pretty laughable coming from you.

And if you support the PKK, why not the little Guevarist foco out of Latakia that wants to take back Hatay?

I'm not part of an organization. And how is it laughable that I support the people and despise the bourgeois (Assad; and seriously, there's absolutely no questioning that Assad is bourgeois, so don't even go there) and the imperialists (Russia and America)? Pardon me for my ignorance, but I thought that combating the bourgeois and imperialists was the job of a Communist. I may, of course, be wrong.

Also, what guevarist foco in Latakia are you speaking of?

I'm also still waiting for a legitimately good reason to not support the modern PKK/YPG, by the way.

[Devrim]

There's no Left in Syria, Devrim. There's no workers' movement to overthrow Assad. There's no reason for us to care. Assad's government is a puppet of imperialist Russia, and the islamist rebels are puppets of the imperialist United Nations.

I absolutely agree with your general point here. The working class is in a terrible situation. There is certainly no possibility of it posing any sort of alternative. Also I agree that neither the government or the rebels have anything progressive to offer.


So we're going to ignore the plight of an oppressed people just because we don't know who to support in a civil war between two undesirable sides and an actually desirable one who no-one wants to acknowledge?

There are a lot of people who are oppressed in Syria at the moment. Communists don't support either side in the war, but just because both of sides are reactionary, it doesn't mean that we have to find another one to sport.

At a time when workers are being urged by different factions to go out and murder each other, and when the working class is being fragmented into different ethnic and sectarian groups, the setting up of one more ethnic militia does nothing to reverse this process. What it does, in however small a way, is to accelerate it.


...an actually desirable one who no-one wants to acknowledge...

I don't think there is anything at all desirable about the PKK. It is a murderous anti-working class gang with a history of attacks against socialists, workers, and ethnic minorities.

Devrim

[Le Socialiste]

"Sexism or gender discrimination is prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender.[1] Sexist attitudes may stem from traditional stereotypes of gender roles,[2][3] and may include the belief that a person of one sex is intrinsically superior to a person of the other.[4]"
The noun "whore" has two meanings. It can mean prostitute, or promiscuous woman. The former, prostitute, is a noun of common gender, since both male and female prostitutes are just called "prostitute". The latter meaning is clearly sexist, for obvious reasons. The former meaning(which is clearly the one I was going for), cannot, by definition, be sexist, unless you're some sorts of Men's Rights Activist that considers it sexist to imply men can be prostitutes even though male prostitution is a widely observed and documented phenomenon. So I don't really see any basis in your objection.

That's some clever footwork, right there. Then you'll understand that, this being an internet message board, it is difficult (nigh on impossible) for me or anyone else happening to moderate this site to not take what you or any other user says at face value. You can contort the original meaning behind your use of the word "whore" through as many hoops as you like, but you and I both know how that word is typically used beyond this website (which is, in turn, usually directed toward women - hence the sexism part).

[Comrade Chernov]

There are a lot of people who are oppressed in Syria at the moment. Communists don't support either side in the war, but just because both of sides are reactionary, it doesn't mean that we have to find another one to sport.

At a time when workers are being urged by different factions to go out and murder each other, and when the working class is being fragmented into different ethnic and sectarian groups, the setting up of one more ethnic militia does nothing to reverse this process. What it does, in however small a way, is to accelerate it.

Kurds have a history of being abused by the governments in the region that goes back centuries. It wasn't too long ago that Saddam gassed thousands of them at Halabja, for example. No matter which side wins this civil war - the Government or the Islamists, and the YPG have engaged both in combat operations thus far - they'll be the victims of violent backlash. I'll bet that those in Iraq will be, too, should they even so much as protest about it.


I don't think there is anything at all desirable about the PKK. It is a murderous anti-working class gang with a history of attacks against socialists, workers, and ethnic minorities.

Devrim

Well it appears that this history is over, then, because the YPG is a self-defense force that only occupies Syrian Kurdistan, not to mention has a clean slate when it comes to war crimes committed in this conflict.

I support the entirety of the working class, but I first and foremost support the oppressed minority of that working class. In this case, that would be the Kurds.

[Tim Cornelis]

At a time when workers are being urged by different factions to go out and murder each other, and when the working class is being fragmented into different ethnic and sectarian groups, the setting up of one more ethnic militia does nothing to reverse this process. What it does, in however small a way, is to accelerate it.

I disagree with your characterisation of the YPG as ethnic or sectarian:


The Syriac Military Council affiliated to the Syriac-Christian Syriac Union party joins the Kurdish YPG militia that now includes not only Sunni Arabs, but also Christians and tries to represent itself as a non-ethnic force.

http://vvanwilgenburg.blogspot.nl/2014/01/syrian-christians-join-kurdish-militia.html


The PYD was accused of attempting to monopolize power in northern Syria by other Kurdish parties and the Syrian National Coalition −opposition's largest umbrella. However, the PYD emphasized that the proposed Administration will be inclusive to all components in the region, "among them Arabs and Christians".


He added that joint security committees have been founded by Kurdish, Arab and Christian parties, "in order to preserve our areas against the continuous attacks by extremist Islamic group".

"Those security units (YPG, Asayish, Sorto and others) will receive their orders directly from the Transitional Administration," Barsoum told ARA News.


"We deeply appreciate the PYD's efforts to protect the region against the al-Qaeda affiliations over the last few months, and the Kurds sacrifice was not to only maintain the Kurdish people, but also the Christians and Arabs of the region."

http://aranews.org/en/interview/806-christians-support-kurdish-proposed-transitional-administration-north-syria-syriac-leader.html


One of the YPG fighters at the place we went to see the fighting draws my attention. He has dark skin, tattoos written in Arabic and stands our for his serenity. I ask Rojin who he is.

“Salem” she says introducing the man. “Salem is an Arab who fought with al-Nusra and later he joined us. He is married and has two children. In order to build a free future for his children he is fighting with us.”

I speak with Salem and and when we speak I see more cleary hat the clashes between the YPG and al-Nusra are not – as some people would like to represent them – clashes between Arabs and Kurds.


Hasan is another Arab fighting with the YPG from Aleppo.He is only 17. He doesn’t know any Kurdish. He speaks with YPG fighters who don’t know Arabic through a translator. He is reserved, calm and very shy. He says he has taken the name Azad and asks that I address him using the name Azad. Timidly he explains why he joined the YPG.

“I witnessed the activities of the YPG in Aleppo. I saw that they did not discriminate among Arabs, Kurds, Christians, Armenians and Assyrians.

http://rojavareport.wordpress.com/2013/09/30/the-pyd-and-ypg-are-not-just-for-kurds-but-all-the-people-of-rojava/


The Democratic Union Party (PYD), which is the strongest Kurdish party in Syria and affiliated with the YPG, announced on Nov. 11 they would form three cantons in cooperation with local Christians, Arabs and Chechens in the PYD-controlled Kurdish areas in the province of Hassakeh, Afrin and Kobane (Ain al-Arab), which is located in the province of Aleppo.

http://www.ekurd.net/mismas/articles/misc2013/11/syriakurd955.htm

The YPG tries to be a non-sectarian, multi-ethnic and multi-cultural force.

[celticnachos]

I absolutely agree with your general point here. The working class is in a terrible situation. There is certainly no possibility of it posing any sort of alternative. Also I agree that neither the government or the rebels have anything progressive to offer.



There are a lot of people who are oppressed in Syria at the moment. Communists don't support either side in the war, but just because both of sides are reactionary, it doesn't mean that we have to find another one to sport.

At a time when workers are being urged by different factions to go out and murder each other, and when the working class is being fragmented into different ethnic and sectarian groups, the setting up of one more ethnic militia does nothing to reverse this process. What it does, in however small a way, is to accelerate it.



I don't think there is anything at all desirable about the PKK. It is a murderous anti-working class gang with a history of attacks against socialists, workers, and ethnic minorities.

Devrim

Why should communists not support Syria against US imperialism? In these types of situations we must devote our support against imperialism, which is objectively preferred for the Syrian people. The primary contradiction in the Syrian conflict is imperialism, which must be resolved, then focusing efforts to resolve the contradiction of labor and capital. The understanding of contradiction is required for communists. This doesn't mean we subordinate ourselves to the actual plans of the Syrian government, we don't attach ourselves to their politics. However, we share a similar interest in fighting against imperialism which is a positive compromise we must make. Whilst doing so we maintain our autonomy as communists, by not making demands that would disrupt our parties. The Popular Front for the Liberation of the Sanjak of Alexandretta understands the objective task at hand, they are a group of Marxist guerrillas fighting alongside Syria.

[Comrade Chernov]

Why should communists not support Syria against US imperialism? In these types of situations we must devote our support against imperialism, which is objectively preferred for the Syrian people. The primary contradiction in the Syrian conflict is imperialism, which must be resolved, then focusing efforts to resolve the contradiction of labor and capital. The understanding of contradiction is required for communists. This doesn't mean we subordinate ourselves to the actual plans of the Syrian government, we don't attach ourselves to their politics. However, we share a similar interest in fighting against imperialism which is a positive compromise we must make. Whilst doing so we maintain our autonomy as communists, by not making demands that would disrupt our parties. The Popular Front for the Liberation of the Sanjak of Alexandretta understands the objective task at hand, they are a group of Marxist guerrillas fighting alongside Syria.

1. We'd be compromising on our ideological duties to support the people against a corrupt, abusive, authoritarian government if we supported Syria

2. Syria is a puppet of imperialist Russia, so why support one imperialist over another?

[celticnachos]

1. We'd be compromising on our ideological duties to support the people against a corrupt, abusive, authoritarian government if we supported Syria

2. Syria is a puppet of imperialist Russia, so why support one imperialist over another?

I already answered your first point. You have to understand ample amount of power the US and it's NATO allies have in the foci of imperialism, which is innumerable compared to that of Russia's. The understanding of national development and contradiction still applies.

[Raquin]

1. We'd be compromising on our ideological duties to support the people against a corrupt, abusive, authoritarian government if we supported Syria

2. Syria is a puppet of imperialist Russia, so why support one imperialist over another?
Puppet of imperialist Russia? That's a new one. The usual Jihadist line is that they are a puppet of the Persian Apostates, not the pig-eating kuffar of Russia.

[Comrade Chernov]

Russia is without a doubt Syria's largest supporter in terms of materiel. The Russians have ships stationed there, and have been supplying small arms, helicopters, and fighter jets to the Syrian army. The Syrian army even uses Soviet tanks!

@celticnachos: Does that mean Communists should have supported Japanese occupation of Vietnam in WWII because they were a smaller empire than the French? Supporting the smaller imperialist nation is still supporting imperialism.

[Raquin]

Russia is without a doubt Syria's largest supporter in terms of materiel. The Russians have ships stationed there, and have been supplying small arms, helicopters, and fighter jets to the Syrian army. The Syrian army even uses Soviet tanks!

@celticnachos: Does that mean Communists should have supported Japanese occupation of Vietnam in WWII because they were a smaller empire than the French? Supporting the smaller imperialist nation is still supporting imperialism.
Are you fucking with me or something? I honestly can't tell. The SAA even uses Soviet tanks? How dare they! Don't they know, Damascus is just overflowing with tank factories producing domestically designed tanks!

Here is an alphabetically sorted list of countries whose main battle tanks(just main battle tanks) are of Soviet or Russian origin:

Afghanistan
Algeria
Angola
Armenia
Azerbaijan
Belarus
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Bulgaria
Cambodia
Cape Verde
Central African Republic
Chad
Cuba
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Georgia
Guinea
Guinea-Bissau
Hungary
India
Iran
Iraq
Kazakhstan
Kenya
Kyrgystan
Laos
Latvia
Lebanon
Libya
Macedonia
Malawi
Mali
Mauritania
Mongolia
Morocco
Mozambique
Myanmar
Namibia
Nicaragua
Nigeria
North Korea
Peru
Poland
Romania
Russia
Rwanda
Serbia
Slovakia
Slovenia
South KOrea
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Syria
Tajikistan
The Democratic Republic Of Congo
Togo
Uganda
Ukraine
Urugauy
Uzbekistan
Venezuela
Vietnam
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe

In other words, Russia has a colonial empire of what, 70 countries? How impressive. Somebody should alert the Kremlin, I don't think they know exactly how many puppets they posses.

Would you please explain how buying munitions, weapons and vehicles from another country suddenly turn the buyer into a "puppet". Hey, the Bundeswehr' main IMV is the MOWAG Eagle. Does that mean Germany is a Swiss puppet? The Armée française uses Swedish Bandvagn 206 APCs. Damn Swedes and their colonialist agenda in France. And don't even get me started on the Belgisch leger and their American F-16s. Brussels simply cowers at the sight of Uncle Sam's jackboots.

[Devrim]

It is a murderous anti-working class gang with a history of attacks against socialists, workers, and ethnic minorities.Well it appears that this history is over, then, because the YPG is a self-defense force that only occupies Syrian Kurdistan,

I am not sure if you understand the ethnic make-up of the region. The Kurdish region is not only inhabited by Kurds. It is a patchwork of different minorities. The PKK's attacks on Assyrians in the past all took place within Turkish Kurdistan. There are no neat lines where you can say that this area is Kurdish, that area is Assyrian, that area is Yazidi...


I disagree with your characterisation of the YPG as ethnic or sectarian:

I don't classify the YPG as sectarian. I think that if you look back over the thread I have been pretty clear about this. I do classify it as nationalist. The YPG is an ethnic militia. If you read through the articles that you link to, you will see that this is not a single unitary organisation including people of all backgrounds, but that there is a coalition of different organisations of various ethnic/sectarian interests. This is nationalist politics.

The PKK has changed. While in the past it held what could only be called a genocidal view of what to do with minorities in the region, it now has come to understand that it had to change.

It is still nationalist to the core though. Look at this quote, taken from the same pro-PYD website that you linked to, from the leader of the PYD, Salih Muslim Muhammad:


"One day those Arabs who have been brought to the Kurdish areas will have to be expelled," said Muslim in an interview with Serek TV.

The PYD leader said that the situation in Qamishli and Hasakah is particularly explosive and that "if it continues the same way, there will be war between Kurds and Arabs."

Is this not ethnic politics? Is this not advocating ethnic cleansing? The PKK has changed its stance to minorities within the Krdish region, who it believes it can dominate. It is actually a lot less accepting with those who refuse to go along with it. Arabs, however, are different. They are not a minority and can not be dominated in the same way. Thus we see the solution; Ethnic cleansing.

Are you still going to tell me that you disagree with my charecterisation of them as a nationalist, or ethnic militia?


Kurds have a history of being abused by the governments in the region that goes back centuries.

Well, no it doesn't, does it? You could construct an argument saying that it goes back to the late nineteenth century, which would be just over 130 years, but centuries. Anyway, never late the facts get in the way of a good bit of exaggeration.


It wasn't too long ago that Saddam gassed thousands of them at Halabja, for example.

As you rightly point out though the governments of the region have done terrible, terrible things to Kurdish people. I remember a friend of mine who was at Halajba during the attack, who was blinded for two weeks by the gas, and who had to live in a tent in a refuge camp in Iran for two years refusing to come to Turkey because, in her words, "In Turkey they really hate Kurds"


No matter which side wins this civil war - the Government or the Islamists, and the YPG have engaged both in combat operations thus far - they'll be the victims of violent backlash.

This is entirely possible. I would imagine that it might be possible for them to make some sort of deal with the state, but not with the Islamicists.


I support the entirety of the working class, but I first and foremost support the oppressed minority of that working class. In this case, that would be the Kurds.

But what does it mean to support "the oppressed minority of that working class"? To me it seems that you mean supporting nationalist organisations who perpetuate ethnic conflict, and are opposed to working class interests as a whole.

Devrim

[Tim Cornelis]

Communists should have supported Nazi Germany against the USA's imperialist might, obviously.

[Raquin]

Communists should have supported Nazi Germany against the USA's imperialist might, obviously.
That's not so ridiculous actually. Half the forum here wouldn't have supported the Soviet Union against Nazi Germany during the GPW.

Sometimes it's so consoling the left is irrelevant and impotent.

[Comrade Chernov]

Are you fucking with me or something? I honestly can't tell. The SAA even uses Soviet tanks? How dare they! Don't they know, Damascus is just overflowing with tank factories producing domestically designed tanks!

Here is an alphabetically sorted list of countries whose main battle tanks(just main battle tanks) are of Soviet or Russian origin:

Afghanistan
Algeria
Angola
Armenia
Azerbaijan
Belarus
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Bulgaria
Cambodia
Cape Verde
Central African Republic
Chad
Cuba
Cyprus
Czech Republic
Egypt
Equatorial Guinea
Eritrea
Ethiopia
Georgia
Guinea
Guinea-Bissau
Hungary
India
Iran
Iraq
Kazakhstan
Kenya
Kyrgystan
Laos
Latvia
Lebanon
Libya
Macedonia
Malawi
Mali
Mauritania
Mongolia
Morocco
Mozambique
Myanmar
Namibia
Nicaragua
Nigeria
North Korea
Peru
Poland
Romania
Russia
Rwanda
Serbia
Slovakia
Slovenia
South KOrea
Sri Lanka
Sudan
Syria
Tajikistan
The Democratic Republic Of Congo
Togo
Uganda
Ukraine
Urugauy
Uzbekistan
Venezuela
Vietnam
Yemen
Zambia
Zimbabwe

In other words, Russia has a colonial empire of what, 70 countries? How impressive. Somebody should alert the Kremlin, I don't think they know exactly how many puppets they posses.

Would you please explain how buying munitions, weapons and vehicles from another country suddenly turn the buyer into a "puppet". Hey, the Bundeswehr' main IMV is the MOWAG Eagle. Does that mean Germany is a Swiss puppet? The Armée française uses Swedish Bandvagn 206 APCs. Damn Swedes and their colonialist agenda in France. And don't even get me started on the Belgisch leger and their American F-16s. Brussels simply cowers at the sight of Uncle Sam's jackboots.

Okay, I admit I phrased it poorly.

What I meant when I said "the Syrian army uses Soviet tanks" was "Syria and Russia have had relations for a substantial period of time, because Soviet-designed tanks are still in use in the Syrian army".

As for the countries using Soviet tanks, it could be argued that many of them were under the social imperialist grip of the USSR in the midst of the Cold War, yes.


I am not sure if you understand the ethnic make-up of the region. The Kurdish region is not only inhabited by Kurds. It is a patchwork of different minorities. The PKK's attacks on Assyrians in the past all took place within Turkish Kurdistan. There are no neat lines where you can say that this area is Kurdish, that area is Assyrian, that area is Yazidi...

The area is mainly Kurdish, though. And indeed, like the ethnic tensions in the breakup of Yugoslavia, there's no neat lines you can draw to declare the ethnic makeup of a state. So the boundaries of Kurdistan, should it ever be declared, would be extremely messy, though I think it's impossible to fully incorporate 100% of an ethnic group into a country without including members of ethnic groups there. Syrian Kurdistan is mainly Kurdish.


The PKK has changed. While in the past it held what could only be called a genocidal view of what to do with minorities in the region, it now has come to understand that it had to change.

It is still nationalist to the core though. Look at this quote, taken from the same pro-PYD website that you linked to, from the leader of the PYD, Salih Muslim Muhammad:

Is this not ethnic politics? Is this not advocating ethnic cleansing? The PKK has changed its stance to minorities within the Krdish region, who it believes it can dominate. It is actually a lot less accepting with those who refuse to go along with it. Arabs, however, are different. They are not a minority and can not be dominated in the same way. Thus we see the solution; Ethnic cleansing.

Then where is the ethnic cleansing currently occurring within Syrian Kurdistan? Because from what I've seen, there has been none. Those who "refuse to go along with it" are currently fighting the Civil War that will determine the fate of Syrian Kurds for their, from the Syrian Arab point of view, "insolent rebellion"/"treacherous backstabbing"/etc. As Tim pointed out, there are non-Kurds serving in the YPG who are being treated as brothers-and-sisters-in-arms. Just because there are tensions between groups doesn't mean that there's tensions between 100% of one group and 100% of another.


Are you still going to tell me that you disagree with my charecterisation of them as a nationalist, or ethnic militia?
They're "ethnic" because they've been massacred by other ethnic groups, and they're "nationalist" because they have no nation. They lack the brutality of other ethnic and nationalist movements, though, and they actually treat women like people as opposed to other nationalist movements. I'd say they're more akin to socialist factions of the IRA than to a murderous racist militia in 1990s Yugoslavia.


Well, no it doesn't, does it? You could construct an argument saying that it goes back to the late nineteenth century, which would be just over 130 years, but centuries. Anyway, never late the facts get in the way of a good bit of exaggeration.

I suppose I'm not as good a history buff as I thought. :o

Still, though, the end of the last-existing Kurdish state was in 1843 when the Ottomans conquered Vedr-Khan Bek, so it's roughly 170 years ago.


As you rightly point out though the governments of the region have done terrible, terrible things to Kurdish people. I remember a friend of mine who was at Halajba during the attack, who was blinded for two weeks by the gas, and who had to live in a tent in a refuge camp in Iran for two years refusing to come to Turkey because, in her words, "In Turkey they really hate Kurds"
Goodness, that's awful. I hope everything's alright for her now.


This is entirely possible. I would imagine that it might be possible for them to make some sort of deal with the state, but not with the Islamicists.

Something tells me that a government willing to shoot fellow Arabs when they're peacefully protesting is going to do awful things to a rebellious group of Kurds. Not to mention, as you said, they're not friendly with the Islamists, either; they've openly battled them numerous times, actually. The Free Syrian Army, or what's left of it at least, have a tense ceasefire with the Kurds, though I think that's mainly out of mutual convenience than anything else.

Personally, if I were the YPG right now, I'd attempt to sure up any gaps in the line, consolidate their forces, attempt secession, and seek international recognition as a free state. Hell, Iraqi Kurdistan could try it, too, there's practically a civil war happening there as well. It just hasn't been declared yet.


But what does it mean to support "the oppressed minority of that working class"? To me it seems that you mean supporting nationalist organisations who perpetuate ethnic conflict, and are opposed to working class interests as a whole.

The Kurds are oppressed, without question they are. They've shown willingness to work with non-Kurdish ethnicities, the problem is that practically every non-Kurdish group in Syria has shot at them already. I'm sure they'd be willing to work with a working class group provided that said group didn't try to kill them for being inferior Kurdish scum. Sadly, that doesn't seem to have happened yet.

[Devrim]

I suppose I'm not as good a history buff as I thought. :o

Still, though, the end of the last-existing Kurdish state was in 1843 when the Ottomans conquered Vedr-Khan Bek, so it's roughly 170 years ago.

This doesn't make any sense at all. It is meaningless to talk about a 'Kurdish state' in the 1840s. Kurdish nationalists themselves date the emergence of the modern Kurdish nationalist movement to 1908. I was referring to the Ubeydullah revolt when I gave a date of 130 years ago. To talk about Kurdish nationalism before that is essentially lacking in any substance as the whole idea of ethnic nationalism didn't have any traction in the Middle East at this point. Kurds were a part of the Muslim millet (translated as nation but a slightly different concept).


The area is mainly Kurdish, though. And indeed, like the ethnic tensions in the breakup of Yugoslavia, there's no neat lines you can draw to declare the ethnic makeup of a state. So the boundaries of Kurdistan, should it ever be declared, would be extremely messy, though I think it's impossible to fully incorporate 100% of an ethnic group into a country without including members of ethnic groups there. Syrian Kurdistan is mainly Kurdish.

The Yugoslav wars were a disaster for the working class. When you get to a situation where people are divided into ethnic/sectarian communities, and fighting against other communities, class struggle becomes effectively impossible, and workers kill and are killed on behalf of the nation state.

This talk about whether an area is 'mainly Kurdish' falls exactly into that logic.

Even whether it is actually true though depends upon how you define 'Kurd'? Are the Zaza Kurds? Are the Yazidi Kurds? Are the Yarsan Kurds? Are the Assyrians even Kurds? Currently the PKK define 'Kurdishness' in a very encompassing way. This hasn't always been the case, and whilst many in some of these communities would define themselves as Kurds, others would object to it.

So is the area of Kurdistan "mainly Kurdish"? it depends how you define 'Kurdish'. The whole argument though falls directly in to nationalist communal based mindset.


Then where is the ethnic cleansing currently occurring within Syrian Kurdistan? Because from what I've seen, there has been none.

So this is an organisation which has been involved in attacks on minorities in the past, and openly talks about expelling members of other ethnic groups in the future, but because they are not it the position to do it at the moment you believe they should be supported?


As Tim pointed out, there are non-Kurds serving in the YPG who are being treated as brothers-and-sisters-in-arms.

I don't think that this reflects the actual situation. While they may be the odd member from other groups the YPG is a primarily an ethnic Kurdish militia. They do co-operate with other groups, particularly one faction of Sutoro, an Assyrian organisation. This is a two nationalist organisations collaborating with each other. It is a continuation of nationalist politics.


They're "ethnic" because they've been massacred by other ethnic groups, and they're "nationalist" because they have no nation. They lack the brutality of other ethnic and nationalist movements, though, and they actually treat women like people as opposed to other nationalist movements. I'd say they're more akin to socialist factions of the IRA than to a murderous racist militia in 1990s Yugoslavia.

The IRA was not above sectarian murders either, such as shooting 11 unarmed protestant building workers.

As for the PKK's attitude towards women, this statement would be funny if the reality wasn't so tragic. The leadership of the PKK has an attitude towards women, which makes the SWP leadership look like radical feminists. A founder member of the PKK put it like this:


Apo has forced dozens of our female comrades into immoral relations with him, defiled most and declared the ones who insisted on refusing, to be people "who haven't understood the party, who haven't understood us" and has heavily repressed them, and even order the murder of some claiming they are agents. Some of our female comrades who are in this situation are still under arrest and under torture, being forced to make confessions appropriate to the scenarios that they are agents...The relations between men and women within the party have turned into a harem in Apo's palace and many female comrades were treated as concubines by this individual.


Something tells me that a government willing to shoot fellow Arabs when they're peacefully protesting is going to do awful things to a rebellious group of Kurds.

The Kurds are not in such a state of rebellion as you seem to imagine. There are still government officials working in YPG controlled areas. If the present government of Syria is to survive, which I personally believe it will, it will need to rally the support of all of the minorities of Syria behind it. The Kurds are a part of this and are aware of this need.


The Kurds are oppressed, without question they are.

This is undoubtedly true. It is not so long ago that speaking Kurdish even in the privacy of your own home was punishable by a six month prison sentence in Turkey. I have no doubt of this. What my question was about was not whether they are an oppressed people, but what it mean to support them.

Devrim