Question: Why are you a Socialist/Communist?

[tooAlive]

I'm just curious to know what personal experiences have led you all to subscribe to leftist ideologies such as socialism and communism.

You can go into detail about your experiences, or not. It's up to you. I'd just like to know what exactly is it that drives a person to your side of the political spectrum.

Was it a financial struggle, someone you met, a family member, professor, experiencing poverty, seeing others in poverty, ect.. Or perhaps some of you are actually very well off financially. No specifics necessary if you don't want to, just a brief description of what it was that made leftism "click" for you.

Also, I'd like to know if any of you have actually lived in a country that has "claimed to be" socialist or communist or experienced a leftist regime first-hand.

[Ele'ill]

I posted about this in the other thread that's somewhere on the main boards. I'd like to add a question to this thread if that's okay gonna post it anyways, What helped you kill the cop in your head and what was that moment like? No specifics.

[Sinister Intents]

Good question comrade. I am a socialist because I believe wholeheartedly it will lead to a better world where everyone can enjoy the fruits of their labour. Socialism will allow for so much more in this world and it will allow everyone an equal opportunity in life.
Edit: I'll elaborate further on your post when I'm not on a cellphone

[tooAlive]

I posted about this in the other thread that's somewhere on the main boards. I'd like to add a question to this thread if that's okay gonna post it anyways, What helped you kill the cop in your head and what was that moment like? No specifics.

Not sure I quite understand. Is that question directed to me? If so, can you be a little more specific?


Good question comrade. I am a socialist because I believe wholeheartedly it will lead to a better world where everyone can enjoy the fruits of their labour. Socialism will allow for so much more in this world and it will allow everyone an equal opportunity in life.

Thank you for your answer.

I'm glad those are the reasons why you have sided with this ideology as a means which you think will help achieve them.

But I was more interested in knowing what personal experiences led you to side with socialism/communism.

Frankly, I believe a lot of people would want the same things you've written there -- both on the left and right. And each person believes his or her ideology is the best way of achieving those things and they each have a reason for it.

That's what I'd like to know.

What made you side with socialism.

[motion denied]

I'm a German agent.

[Sinister Intents]

I'm just curious to know what personal experiences have led you all to subscribe to leftist ideologies such as socialism and communism.

You can go into detail about your experiences, or not. It's up to you. I'd just like to know what exactly is it that drives a person to your side of the political spectrum.

Was it a financial struggle, someone you met, a family member, professor, experiencing poverty, seeing others in poverty, ect.. Or perhaps some of you are actually very well off financially. No specifics necessary if you don't want to, just a brief description of what it was that made leftism "click" for you.

Also, I'd like to know if any of you have actually lived in a country that has "claimed to be" socialist or communist or experienced a leftist regime first-hand.

I actually got into communism through a politically confused fascist introducing me to the concept through the CPUSA and Communist League website. The more research I did one those sites I realized NO one in my area really knows what socialism is at all. My first interactions helped me to find more and more material. In the ninth grade I did a report on Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin) and the October Revolution. Later on I bought a modified version of Das Kapital and a copy of the Communist Manifesto. As time went on I read significantly more and gained more of an interest and understanding of anarchism.

Certainly financial struggles and growing up and living in poverty helped me to achieve leftist beliefs when I finally learned what socialism was, in the beginning I was extremely reactionary (rape apologia, excessively racist/sexist/homophobic, et cetera.) My experiences in life helped me to discover the realities of capitalism. My families poverty and the poverty of those around me helped show me that capitalism is solely a parasitic system. It's all about profit for the few. There are too many things for me to list, but if you feel I should elaborate I can. Why aren't you a communist/anarchist/socialist of some kind? Why the username TooAlive? What made your views click?

Of course I've never been to any of the so called "socialist countries." Socialism hasn't existed yet because it must be global much like capitalism is. In fact there cannot be a socialist country because socialism seeks a stateless, classless, moneyless society. No more borders, no gods, no masters. These far left nations and far left regimes in fact weren't left at all. You can easily find examples and evidence by browsing this forum. There are so many answers on RevLeft.

[Sinister Intents]

I posted about this in the other thread that's somewhere on the main boards. I'd like to add a question to this thread if that's okay gonna post it anyways, What helped you kill the cop in your head and what was that moment like? No specifics.

What killed the cop in my head was his lack of food and oxygen. :) It was wonderful, just a moment of pure insanity and mental freedom!

[#FF0000]

I posted this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2700091&postcount=5) in the other thread but i can expand on it a little bit. I was raised by a military family that was also broke as fuck. So of course, I was raised on stories about the revolution and asked a lot of questions about my dad's military history and this and that, and I think that influenced my world view in a big way, especially in my distrust of government and "power" in general. I think it's also what got me to empathize with "the little guy", along with my own experiences with poverty and, to a lesser extent, being bullied in elementary/middle school.

Then there was in my dad's (who is somewhat conservative) throwing me all sorts of ridiculous curveballs, such as when I asked "who are the bad guys now that the [Persian Gulf] war is over?" and he said "they were never any bad guys" and told me that the Iraqis were the same as us and it's only their government that was bad and this and that -- which is fucking mindblowing to a toddler.

One way or the other I was still always kinda patriotic as you'd expect a kid with my background to be, up until 9/11. After the attacks I decided to read up on 20th century American history beyond World War 2, and found myself seriously disillusioned by what I found, with the Banana Wars and the US overthrowing democratically elected leaders left and right, etc. etc.

From then on I just started to read everything I could to try to make sense of the world and ended up reading about Marxism after a friend of mine pointed out that every single person you meet says the same thing about communism (human nature/good in theory) but there's no way in hell that even 90% of them have even glanced at the Manifesto.

And yeah, I read up, liked what I was reading for the most part, and here I am.


What helped you kill the cop in your head and what was that moment like? No specifics. I actually wanted to be a cop when I was really, really young. As I grew older, I grew out of it, though. For the most part, even has a vaguely conservative patriotic dummy pre-teen, I always found it natural to distrust people with power whether it comes from a badge and gun, property and a bank account, or office.

[BIXX]

What killed the cop in my head was a cop peppers praying me. It wasn't a fast death, but more like a slow bleed out.

[Ele'ill]

it was a lot of things but work killed the cop in my head, or gave me the gun anyways. It is usually overwhelming like trying to swim in a flash flood, the way cops swarm you and if there's a peep you get killed but they messed up. It was a big slip up on their part, they put too much pressure on at the wrong time and outside of their linear policy book going-ons like the little window with smokey bubble glass in some corner of one in a million industrial parks across the country it broke and I saw the entire night sky for the first time and heard the crickets and cicadas and the light of the earth meant nothing any more.





insurrectionary poetry while drunk fuck off I was like 16

[tooAlive]

I actually got into communism through a politically confused fascist introducing me to the concept through the CPUSA and Communist League website. The more research I did one those sites I realized NO one in my area really knows what socialism is at all. My first interactions helped me to find more and more material. In the ninth grade I did a report on Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Lenin) and the October Revolution. Later on I bought a modified version of Das Kapital and a copy of the Communist Manifesto. As time went on I read significantly more and gained more of an interest and understanding of anarchism.

Certainly financial struggles and growing up and living in poverty helped me to achieve leftist beliefs when I finally learned what socialism was, in the beginning I was extremely reactionary (rape apologia, excessively racist/sexist/homophobic, et cetera.) My experiences in life helped me to discover the realities of capitalism. My families poverty and the poverty of those around me helped show me that capitalism is solely a parasitic system. It's all about profit for the few. There are too many things for me to list, but if you feel I should elaborate I can. Why aren't you a communist/anarchist/socialist of some kind? Why the username TooAlive? What made your views click?

Of course I've never been to any of the so called "socialist countries." Socialism hasn't existed yet because it must be global much like capitalism is. In fact there cannot be a socialist country because socialism seeks a stateless, classless, moneyless society. No more borders, no gods, no masters. These far left nations and far left regimes in fact weren't left at all. You can easily find examples and evidence by browsing this forum. There are so many answers on RevLeft.


I posted this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2700091&postcount=5) in the other thread but i can expand on it a little bit. I was raised by a military family that was also broke as fuck. So of course, I was raised on stories about the revolution and asked a lot of questions about my dad's military history and this and that, and I think that influenced my world view in a big way, especially in my distrust of government and "power" in general. I think it's also what got me to empathize with "the little guy", along with my own experiences with poverty and, to a lesser extent, being bullied in elementary/middle school.

Then there was in my dad's (who is somewhat conservative) throwing me all sorts of ridiculous curveballs, such as when I asked "who are the bad guys now that the [Persian Gulf] war is over?" and he said "they were never any bad guys" and told me that the Iraqis were the same as us and it's only their government that was bad and this and that -- which is fucking mindblowing to a toddler.

One way or the other I was still always kinda patriotic as you'd expect a kid with my background to be, up until 9/11. After the attacks I decided to read up on 20th century American history beyond World War 2, and found myself seriously disillusioned by what I found, with the Banana Wars and the US overthrowing democratically elected leaders left and right, etc. etc.

From then on I just started to read everything I could to try to make sense of the world and ended up reading about Marxism after a friend of mine pointed out that every single person you meet says the same thing about communism (human nature/good in theory) but there's no way in hell that even 90% of them have even glanced at the Manifesto.

And yeah, I read up, liked what I was reading for the most part, and here I am.

I actually wanted to be a cop when I was really, really young. As I grew older, I grew out of it, though. For the most part, even has a vaguely conservative patriotic dummy pre-teen, I always found it natural to distrust people with power whether it comes from a badge and gun, property and a bank account, or office.

Thank you both for sharing your experiences so far. It certainly helps a lot in regards to understanding why you believe what you believe.

Looking forward to reading more of your experiences and what ultimately made it click for you.

As for me? I'll hold off until a few more of you have posted before posting why I believe what I believe. :)

Keep em' coming.

[Sinister Intents]

Thank you both for sharing your experiences so far. It certainly helps a lot in regards to understanding why you believe what you believe.

Looking forward to reading more of your experiences and what ultimately made it click for you.

As for me? I'll hold off until a few more of you have posted before posting why I believe what I believe. :)

Keep em' coming.

You might be waiting a while, you should share anyway.

[tooAlive]

You might be waiting a while, you should share anyway.

Perhaps. But that will inevitably bring up another discussion.

I don't mind waiting a bit.

Besides, I see quite a few people have read the thread already. Maybe they're still writing out their experiences.

[Ele'ill]

I think you should just go ahead and post and that will bring in a different audience from the group that is here now who has already posted in the other recent thread on the main boards. imo

[Sinister Intents]

I think you should just go ahead and post and that will bring in a different audience from the group that is here now who has already posted in the other recent thread on the main boards. imo

I second what Mari3L says. There have been similar threads as well.

[Skyhilist]

I'm in it for the money, I don't know about everyone else.

[tooAlive]

Alright, since popular demand seems to want me to post my experiences, lets give the people what they want.

It all started when my parents immigrated from Cuba a few decades ago. They hadn't met yet, but both came for pretty similar reasons a few years apart.

As you've probably guessed, my parents' country of origin has had an influence on my current political beliefs. And yes, before you say that Cuba isn't socialist or communist, and therefore not reflective of your beliefs, I know. ;)

Anyways, flash forward many more years to when I actually started getting interested in politics. A professor at my local community college introduced me to the concept of "redistribution of wealth."

I'm sure you've all heard the story of the professor who told the class if they thought redistribution of wealth to be fair, he'd then redistribute their grades. And as students started to realize there was no point in trying to get A's as they'd simply get the average of everyone's grades, they stopped studying so hard. Eventually, they all started getting F's. Well, that was more or less what we talked about, and that got my gears turning politically.

Shortly afterward, my family and I went through a pretty severe financial situation. Long story short, my dad got sick, had to retire early, his retirement wasn't nearly enough to pay for the house, let alone bills, ect.... Needless to say, it was pretty rough. If it wasn't for the miracle that my dad was finally approved for disability 2 years later, I don't know where we'd be.

I don't mean to post up a sob story, but just so you know that I too have gone through financial struggles and hardships. And my beliefs aren't shaped or influenced by the lack of a struggle, so to speak.

Although during that time I was able to spend a lot of time studying politics (yes, including Marxism), debating politics, ect.

Now, into politics...

Let me start off by saying that I understand communism. I truly do. I think it's a wonderful idea -- no sarcasm intended. If the world could actually operate in such a way, it'd be great. Nobody would starve, we'd all have everything we needed, medical care would be readily available, everyone would be able to cherish the fruits of their labor, ect.. A truly perfect world.

So, how could I possible disagree with such a system?

Go grab a drink, as I'll continue it on the next post. Need to rest the fingers for a little bit. :)

[Sinister Intents]

Alright, since popular demand seems to want me to post my experiences, lets give the people what they want.

It all started when my parents immigrated from Cuba a few decades ago. They hadn't met yet, but both came for pretty similar reasons a few years apart.

As you've probably guessed, my parents' country of origin has had an influence on my current political beliefs. And yes, before you say that Cuba isn't socialist or communist, and therefore not reflective of your beliefs, I know. ;)

Anyways, flash forward many more years to when I actually started getting interested in politics. A professor at my local community college introduced me to the concept of "redistribution of wealth."

I'm sure you've all heard the story of the professor who told the class if they thought redistribution of wealth to be fair, he'd then redistribute their grades. And as students started to realize there was no point in trying to get A's as they'd simply get the average of everyone's grades, they stopped studying so hard. Eventually, they all started getting F's. Well, that was more or less what we talked about, and that got my gears turning politically.

Shortly afterward, my family and I went through a pretty severe financial situation. Long story short, my dad got sick, had to retire early, his retirement wasn't nearly enough to pay for the house, let alone bills, ect.... Needless to say, it was pretty rough. If it wasn't for the miracle that my dad was finally approved for disability 2 years later, I don't know where we'd be.

I don't mean to post up a sob story, but just so you know that I too have gone through financial struggles and hardships. And my beliefs aren't shaped or influenced by the lack of a struggle, so to speak.

Although during that time I was able to spend a lot of time studying politics (yes, including Marxism), debating politics, ect.

Now, into politics...

Let me start off by saying that I understand communism. I truly do. I think it's a wonderful idea -- no sarcasm intended. If the world could actually operate in such a way, it'd be great. Nobody would starve, we'd all have everything we needed, medical care would be readily available, everyone would be able to cherish the fruits of their labor, ect.. A truly perfect world.

So, how could I possible disagree with such a system?

Go grab a drink, as I'll continue it on the next post. Need to rest the fingers for a little bit. :)

Popular demand? democracy? the only democracy possible is direct democracy, the US is a bourgeois democracy. Your teacher represents the state :) communism has nothing to do with wealth distribution, communism involves the elimination of wealth comrade. I get everything you're saying, can I direct you towards some helpful literature?

edit: drunk by the way. I wasn't drunk earlier.

[Sinister Intents]

I don't see any reason why you can't be a communist!

[tachosomoza]

“I don’t know. But I’m flexible. As was stated earlier, all of the countries that are emerging today from under the shackles of colonialism are turning toward socialism. I don’t think it’s an accident. Most of the countries that were colonial powers were capitalist countries and the last bulwark of capitalism today is America and it’s impossible for a white person today to believe in capitalism and not believe in racism. You can’t have capitalism without racism. And if you find a person without racism and you happen to get that person into conversation and they have a philosophy that makes you sure they don’t have this racism in their outlook, usually they’re socialists or their political Philosophy is socialism.”

Pretty simple. That's a Malcolm X quote, by the way.

[tooAlive]

So, how can I possibly not be a communist, given that it is so perfect?

Few reasons.

I've been thinking and reading a lot, and from what I can understand, there would have to be some very drastic changes for communism to take place. Something very significant would have to happen. Some sort of Revolution.

Yes, I'm familiar with that word.

Out of the 5 times I've been to Cuba, it's the one word I can remember being painted almost everywhere.

¡Viva la Revolución!

Many Cubans are still very patriotic about their revolution. Others not so much. But you can still see those words painted on most street corners and billboards. If there's any advertising allowed in Cuba, it's that one.

So, back to where we were.

If we were to transition from capitalism into communism, there would need to be a revolution.

Now, this could either occur violently or peacefully. Lets think on this for a minute.

Currently, I'm a business owner. When I was at rock bottom I decided to start my own business. It was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do, and have vested countless sleepless nights and days into it. Nonstop grinding away with the faith of a better future for my family.

Now, there's a Revolution unfolding -- threatening to take away the business that I've worked so hard on to get my family ahead. Naturally, I and everyone else in a similar position to mine will not willfully let what we've worked so hard for be taken away. Do you think this revolution will take place peacefully? I don't think so.

So, naturally, if private property is to be taken away at force, there will likely be violence. A lot of it.

(Although in case there is a slight chance a non-violent revolution could take place, I'd also like to point out that most other non-violent revolutions throughout history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_revolution) have been against communist rule [which I know, is theoretically wrong, as technically there should be no rule under communism])

Anyways, lets skip the violence and into the after math of the revolution. Now we have what -- socialism? I guess we could butt heads a little here as to how to practically do this, but I would assume there would have to be some sort of group to "temporarily" take over and make sure things go according to plan.

In any case, that's the impression I've gotten from your writings. As practically, you can't expect to go from an established capitalist society into a state-less, money-less, class-less society all in one go, -- let alone globally (the only way socialism can really work) and without a "state" to ensure things go smoothly. There will inevitably be people that won't want to join your cause. So again, there will need to be a transitional phase into your end-goal of communism with some sort of group leading the way.

I think Marx envisioned it as the "withering away of the state." Am I right?

That's the first big problem I see with socialism/communism. The transitional phase. I just don't see it happening. Since I get the impression you guys are just as against giving ultimate authority to a state or small group of people as I am, this phase should scare you too.

I mean, what's to stop this elected group of people to stay in power indefinitely? It's still happening in Cuba. Their Revolution started out as it should have and most Cubans were thrilled that it was happening, but it didn't continue as it should have.

Instead, it turned into an oppressive state-capitalist dictatorship.

So again, that's one of the reasons I don't support the idea of socialism. As things are now, I don't see it coming forth without a state-capitalist system taking place instead. Because unless a massive global consciousness shift occurred, eliminating the need for a "transition," I don't see your ultimate goal a realistic possibility without turning into a dictatorship of a few capitalists. Because yes, all self proclaimed socialist and communist leaders/dictators have been capitalists. They've controlled all the capital, have they not?

I think this post is long enough for now. This is just one reason, and you wanted to know why I'm not a communist. I have a few more, if you'd like to hear them.

[Sinister Intents]

So, how can I possibly not be a communist, given that it is so perfect?

Few reasons.

I've been thinking and reading a lot, and from what I can understand, there would have to be some very drastic changes for communism to take place. Something very significant would have to happen. Some sort of Revolution.

Yes, I'm familiar with that word.

Out of the 5 times I've been to Cuba, it's the one word I can remember being painted almost everywhere.

¡Viva la Revolución!

Many Cubans are still very patriotic about their revolution. Others not so much. But you can still see those words painted on most street corners and billboards. If there's any advertising allowed in Cuba, it's that one.

So, back to where we were.

If we were to transition from capitalism into communism, there would need to be a revolution.

Now, this could either occur violently or peacefully. Lets think on this for a minute.

Currently, I'm a business owner. When I was at rock bottom I decided to start my own business. It was one of the hardest things I've ever had to do, and have vested countless sleepless nights and days into it. Nonstop grinding away with the faith of a better future for my family.

Now, there's a Revolution unfolding -- threatening to take away the business that I've worked so hard on to get my family ahead. Naturally, I and everyone else in a similar position to mine will not willfully let what we've worked so hard for be taken away. Do you think this revolution will take place peacefully? I don't think so.

So, naturally, if private property is to be taken away at force, there will likely be violence. A lot of it.

(Although in case there is a slight chance a non-violent revolution could take place, I'd also like to point out that most other non-violent revolutions throughout history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_revolution) have been against communist rule [which I know, is theoretically wrong, as technically there should be no rule under communism])

Anyways, lets skip the violence and into the after math of the revolution. Now we have what -- socialism? I guess we could butt heads a little here as to how to practically do this, but I would assume there would have to be some sort of group to "temporarily" take over and make sure things go according to plan.

In any case, that's the impression I've gotten from your writings. As practically, you can't expect to go from an established capitalist society into a state-less, money-less, class-less society all in one go, -- let alone globally (the only way socialism can really work) and without a "state" to ensure things go smoothly. There will inevitably be people that won't want to join your cause. So again, there will need to be a transitional phase into your end-goal of communism with some sort of group leading the way.

I think Marx envisioned it as the "withering away of the state." Am I right?

That's the first big problem I see with socialism/communism. The transitional phase. I just don't see it happening. Since I get the impression you guys are just as against giving ultimate authority to a state or small group of people as I am, this phase should scare you too.

I mean, what's to stop this elected group of people to stay in power indefinitely? It's still happening in Cuba. Their Revolution started out as it should have and most Cubans were thrilled that it was happening, but it didn't continue as it should have.

Instead, it turned into an oppressive state-capitalist dictatorship.

So again, that's one of the reasons I don't support the idea of socialism. Because unless a massive global consciousness shift occurred, I don't see your ultimate goal a realistic possibility without turning into a dictatorship of a few capitalists. Because yes, all self proclaimed socialist and communist leaders/dictators have been capitalists.

They've controlled all the capital, have they not?

I think this post is long enough for now. This is just one reason, and you wanted to know why I'm not a communist. I have a few more, if you'd like to hear them.

Well comrade Cuba never achieved communism in any way. Castroism is Stalinism essentially. Cuba may have a lot better than other Latin American countries, but they're still thoroughly capitalist. I think you just have a lot of reading to do comrade. Reading is good, here are some sources: Kropotkin (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/kropotkin-peter/) Goldman (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/goldman/) I thoroughly advise you read more :)

[tooAlive]

Guess I should post another reason why I dislike Marxism.

Two words I'd like to start off with: Envy and Greed.

Those two things, I believe, are the biggest troubles we have in the world.

Envy leads to violence and greed leads to exploitation.

And as much as I've heard those words attributed to capitalism, I have to say they are not inherent of any one political or socio-economic system. I believe they are inherent of people.

That's why, to this date, true communism has not had the chance to work as it was envisioned. Because people are greedy end envious.

On one side you have the proletariat, that is naturally envious of the bourgeoise. They feel exploited and obviously want what they are not able to acquire.

So they revolt, and the revolution begins.

But, the proletariat is also greedy.

And so a state blossoms, and a new bourgeoise has been born. Why? Because again, we're greedy. Perhaps not all of us, but there will inevitably be someone in the mix that is an envious, greedy bastard. That's why socialism hasn't been truly implemented, and instead we have state-capitalist systems like Cuba's.

That's why I'm against systems like socialism -- because we still haven't found a cure for greed and envy.

[tooAlive]

Well comrade Cuba never achieved communism in any way. Castroism is Stalinism essentially. Cuba may have a lot better than other Latin American countries, but they're still thoroughly capitalist. I think you just have a lot of reading to do comrade. Reading is good, here are some sources: Kropotkin (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/kropotkin-peter/) Goldman (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/goldman/) I thoroughly advise you read more :)

Yes, yes.. I know. I understand that perfectly well.

Perhaps you should re-read my post and what I was trying to get at by referencing Cuba.

There has never been a "truly communist" country to date. Nor has there been a "truly socialist" country to date.

[Sinister Intents]

Guess I should post another reason why I dislike Marxism.

Two words I'd like to start off with: Envy and Greed.Guess I should post another reason why I dislike Marxism.Guess I should post another reason why I dislike Marxism.

Those two things, I believe, are the biggest troubles we have in the world.

Envy leads to violence and greed leads to exploitation.

And as much as I've heard those words attributed to capitalism, I have to say they are not inherent of any one political or socio-economic system. I believe they are inherent of people.

That's why, to this date, true communism has not had the chance to work as it was envisioned. Because people are greedy end envious.

On one side you have the proletariat, that is naturally envious of the bourgeoise. They feel exploited and obviously want what they are not able to acquire.

So they revolt, and the revolution begins.

But, the proletariat is also greedy.

And so a state blossoms, and a new bourgeoise has been born. Why? Because again, we're greedy. Perhaps not all of us, but there will inevitably be someone in the mix that is an envious, greedy bastard.

That's why I'm against systems like socialism -- because we still haven't found a cure for greed and envy.

I am an anarchist not a marxist :) but marxism is very important to anarchism. Seems like you're referring to "human nature." Human nature. the definition of it has changed under every culture and through out the centuries, their is no true human nature. Humans are both altruistic and greedy, it's completely normal. A lot of these things are created under capitalism. Cuba is capitalism no matter how you cut it because socialism cannot exist under a globalized capitalist world comrade. How does envy lead to violence? In my experiences I've seen envy and greed and altruism and so much more lead to so many different things. I am not envious in any way of the bourgeoisie, I want socialism for all, not some. I don't want to create a new state or recreate capitalism in any way. Their is no cure for greed and envy, if anything socialism will cure all of humanity of its ills.

[Sinister Intents]

Yes, yes.. I know. I understand that perfectly well.

Perhaps you should re-read my post and what I was trying to get at by referencing Cuba.

There has never been a "truly communist" country to date. Nor has there been a "truly socialist" country to date.

Like I said you should read more :)

[tooAlive]

I am an anarchist not a marxist :) but marxism is very important to anarchism. Seems like you're referring to "human nature." Human nature. the definition of it has changed under every culture and through out the centuries, their is no true human nature. Humans are both altruistic and greedy, it's completely normal. A lot of these things are created under capitalism. Cuba is capitalism no matter how you cut it because socialism cannot exist under a globalized capitalist world comrade. How does envy lead to violence? In my experiences I've seen envy and greed and altruism and so much more lead to so many different things. I am not envious in any way of the bourgeoisie, I want socialism for all, not some. I don't want to create a new state or recreate capitalism in any way. Their is no cure for greed and envy, if anything socialism will cure all of humanity of its ills.

I'm referring to what I see today and I've read throughout history.

You might say human nature is susceptible to the socio-economic conditions in which a person is brought up in. I'd disagree. :)


Like I said you should read more :)

Believe me, I've read my fair share of stuff inside and outside this forum about leftism.

[Sinister Intents]

I'm referring to what I see today and I've read throughout history.

You might say human nature is susceptible to the socio-economic conditions in which a person is brought up in. I'd disagree. :)

Then what do you see today? And I said the definition of human nature is constantly changing, at least what I said hopefully comes across as such. Human nature is not a god given thing, human nature is defined in so many ways. Human nature is not something one can easily define because there is no given human nature. We may do similar things to survive, but that isn't human nature that is survival. We live on a floating rock in this vastness we call space, we have to work together or we go extinct because our efforts under capitalism have devestated this fragile planet.

[Sinister Intents]

and perhaps you shouldn't read stuff on revleft. Read stuff on marxists.org (http://www.marxists.org/)and stuff on anarchist faq. (http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/index.html)

[Sinister Intents]

Let go of your preconcieved notions of communism and anarchism :) they're not what you're thinking

[Ele'ill]

I imagined this turning into one of these threads since there was already a thread about this on the main board area. I still like learning about other people's experiences but doing so on the internet can be problematic and especially so in OI on revleft




Currently, I'm a business owner. When I was at rock bottom I decided to start my own business.


Naturally, I and everyone else in a similar position to mineFolks actually at 'rock bottom' don't have the capacity to start their own business. I don't know your situation but I know a lot of folks who start their own business feel 'lost' but are extremely privileged and thus end up with this 'working class' front to their shit when it isn't. They couldn't come close to describing rock bottom if asked to.




So, naturally, if private property is to be taken away at force, there will likely be violence. A lot of it.if folks work for you and they stop working is that violence what if they refuse you entrance to your formerly privately owned place of work and declare it theirs as this is going on elsewhere

what if you call in the police, what of your engagement in coercion economically before all of this, that led to all of this








I think Marx envisioned it as the "withering away of the state." Am I right?

That's the first big problem I see with socialism/communism. The transitional phase. I just don't see it happening. Since I get the impression you guys are just as against giving ultimate authority to a state or small group of people as I am, this phase should scare you too.yup


I mean, what's to stop this elected group of people to stay in power indefinitely?yup

[tachosomoza]

Did I just see a bourgeois call Marxists "greedy"? What a fucking laugh.

[o well this is ok I guess]

cuz I'm broke as fuck and hate my job

[OfHammersAndSickles]

For the longest time, i was what i can only describe as a progressive libertarian. In my own little opinion of what should be done, included nationalization of much industry, super low taxes while just ultra lenient on social issues. This was due to a skepticism of the state, caused by my own research into marijuana. I realized that it was only illegal to make money for some people who lobbied.
Then one day i was watching videos about socialism. It was going good, i had that whole "uR a $TatIst, NUB" mentality that Ancaps and libertarians get.
But all of a sudden, it decked me in the face. I stopped writing mid-comment. Furiously, i started writing down everything i knew about socialism and communism. This included stuff like anti democracy and the like. Then i did some research on some less than rational websites. THEIR DEFINITIONS OF SOCIALISM AND COMMUNISM WERE DIFFERENT THAN MY OWN. WHAT?! None of this makes sense.
So Then i looked into what socialism and communism meant in the words of actual marxists. DIFFERENT AGAIN. Three different ideas to dick around with. Hmmm. The marxist definitions made the most sense, and seemed the most professional, honestly. So I looked into those. Thats when i learned what capitalism really was, and not just that, i learned the implications of such a system. Then i remembered marijuana...
It hit me again. Holy shit it all makes sense now. Fuck.
I realized like a slave realizing freedom for the first time.. that I didnt know what socialism and communism were.. Because it wasnt profitable for me to know just like it wasnt profitable for marijuana to be legal!
This problem transcended the state, I realized. This problem of what was profitable and what wasnt, could be applied almost universally to problems in our society. Shitty music? Profit. Roaches in your milk? Profit. Third world? Profit.
And i was utterly amazed at everything else marxism had to offer! I finally understood how a business owner made money, how a capitalist market worked.. None of this was offered by libertarians, or progressives, or contemporary economics.
And so it was I became a communist

[Fourth Internationalist]

Anyways, lets skip the violence and into the after math of the revolution. Now we have what -- socialism? I guess we could butt heads a little here as to how to practically do this, but I would assume there would have to be some sort of group to "temporarily" take over and make sure things go according to plan. That would be Blanquism, not Marxism nor anything any socialist has really advocated for since Blanqui.

[tooAlive]

Folks actually at 'rock bottom' don't have the capacity to start their own business.

Why do you say that? A "business" can be started by literally anyone in this country. Capital investment is not required, depending on the type of business you are starting.

In my case, I simply started offering a service other people were willing to pay for.


I don't know your situation but I know a lot of folks who start their own business feel 'lost' but are extremely privileged and thus end up with this 'working class' front to their shit when it isn't. They couldn't come close to describing rock bottom if asked to.

Yes, you're right. There are millions of other people who have it had much, much worse than I have.

Perhaps it was a little insensitive to use the term "rock bottom." Although my circumstance did involve basically starting from scratch, I was blessed to have all my faculties in order and the opportunity to start something.

[tooAlive]

Then what do you see today? And I said the definition of human nature is constantly changing, at least what I said hopefully comes across as such. Human nature is not a god given thing, human nature is defined in so many ways. Human nature is not something one can easily define because there is no given human nature. We may do similar things to survive, but that isn't human nature that is survival. We live on a floating rock in this vastness we call space, we have to work together or we go extinct because our efforts under capitalism have devestated this fragile planet.

Yes, I know the human nature topic is a touchy one, as it can fundamentally trump the notion that communism as an ideology is even remotely possible or sustainable.

I think the few thousand years humans have been on this earth has been telling enough that such transitions into collectives aren't possible because of things such as greed.

Humans have been greedy since day 1. There have been accounts of thieves and robbers since history can remember. What do you think drove these thieves to take what was not theirs, if not greed? There are countless other examples of this as well. So the notion that under socialism people will stop being greedy isn't plausible to me.

Perhaps we can indeed change, but like I mentioned earlier, it would take a massive global consciousness shift.

[tooAlive]

Let go of your preconcieved notions of communism and anarchism :) they're not what you're thinking

My friend, don't have any of those.

Your ideology is a state-less, class-less and money-less society? Where trading becomes simple mutual exchanges, and goods and services are freely available to all, is it not?

That's what I perceive "true communism" to be.

[tooAlive]

That would be Blanquism, not Marxism nor anything any socialist has really advocated for since Blanqui.

Perhaps "true socialists" don't advocate violent revolutions and an ensuing state to finish the job.

I would certainly hope not.

But realistically, how do you plan on changing the status quo of things into your ultimate goal?

According to Google there are 7 billion people on earth. I think peacefully getting them all to subscribe to socialism is going to be quite a stretch. So inevitably, force will have to be used.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Perhaps "true socialists" don't advocate violent revolutions and an ensuing state to finish the job.

I would certainly hope not.

But realistically, how do you plan on changing the status quo of things into your ultimate goal?

According to Google there are 7 billion people on earth. I think peacefully getting them all to subscribe to socialism is going to be quite a stretch. So inevitably, force will have to be used.My post was against your point about a temporary group taking power to make sure the revolution goes as planned. Revolution by the working class and the establishment of their class as the wielder of state power is not what I am against at all.

[tooAlive]

And also, I believe personal incentive to be a crucial aspect of any functioning system -- something which seems to be somewhat outlawed in socialist ideology in favor of the collective.

I think personal gain is absolutely essential. You might think it's selfish to say that, but I think it's more selfish to squander ones personal dreams, ambitions and purpose for a collective.

We come to this world as individuals from our individual mothers and fathers. Each (I believe) with a purpose. And although this probably fits better into a discussion about spirituality, I though it to be important to mention, as it's a bid reason why I don't subscribe to socialist train of thought. And you all wanted to know why I didn't.

I also think that the notion that we as people and our children belong to the community is also ill conceived. My parents tell me how in Cuba, they used to say your children belonged to "La Patria." Translation, 'your homeland.'

I completely refuse that notion.

If a young boy were to die fighting for his 'homeland' or 'community', they would not mourn his loss for very long. But I can assure there would be one mother that certainly would.

[tooAlive]

My post was against your point about a temporary group taking power to make sure the revolution goes as planned. Revolution by the working class and the establishment of their class as the wielder of state power is not what I am against at all.

Right, so you're in favor of the working class essentially becoming the state? Albeit temporarily.

That's what my original point was about.

Once they become "the state," who is to say they will not step down from power and let the state "wither away?"

Because if you are a true communist you'd know that there couldn't be a "ruling class" under it. And the proletariat as the "ruling class" is certainly no exception.

No classes means no classes.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Right, so you're in favor of the working class essentially becoming the state? Albeit temporarily.

That's what my original point was about.

Once they become "the state," who is to say they will not step down from power and let the state "wither away?"

Because if you are a true communist you'd know that there couldn't be a "ruling class" under it. And the proletariat as the "ruling class" is certainly no exception.

No classes means no classes.The proletariat is a class whose interests lies in abolishing the capitalist system and class society, and therefore it must oversee the transition to classless society. It's not like the proletariat needs to decide one day to give up power or else somehow the proletariat (the majority of the population, keep in mind) will somehow establish a new class society based on the exploitation of the previous exploiting class, the bourgeoisie, which it was suppressing. Why? Because their role as the ruling class is to destroy class society by eliminating the bourgeoisie as a class and establishing socialism. That is the power they have, not as in to exploit a new class. That would be impossible to do, actually, because the proletariat is such a large section of the world population. Once the working class fulfills their role as a ruling class, there are no more classes. So, there is no class to rule over, no power to give to give up, etc. It's been done. The state and class rule withered away. I'm surprised you're not an anarchist due to your opinions on power and the state.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

In communism everything is free, and nobody has to pay for anything. In capitalism you have to pay like $5 for a pound of bread, or like $400 for an Xbox One. In communism, it's free! :grin:

[Queen Mab]

Once they become "the state," who is to say they will not step down from power and let the state "wither away?"

Because it's not a matter of idealism. Once the dictatorship of the proletariat is established, the direct material interest of the class is in abolishing its own condition of slavery. That is, abolishing capitalism and replacing it with socialism. Once socialism is established the proletariat has been dissolved, since there are no class relations under socialism. Thus there is no longer a dictatorship of the proletariat. Thus there is no state but instead a general administration of common interests in the absence of class antagonism.

The idea that the proletariat would obstruct the withering away of the state is about as likely as the black slaves of Mississippi willingly returning themselves to slavery after the end of the American Civil War.


Because if you are a true communist you'd know that there couldn't be a "ruling class" under it. And the proletariat as the "ruling class" is certainly no exception.

As above, we communists don't advocate for the eternal rule of the proletariat. We advocate the dictatorship of the proletariat because we understand that the proletariat is the only class that has a material interest in abolishing all classes, including itself.

[tooAlive]

The proletariat is a class whose interests lies in abolishing the capitalist system and class society, and therefore it must oversee the transition to classless society. It's not like the proletariat needs to decide one day to give up power or else somehow the proletariat (the majority of the population, keep in mind) will somehow establish a new class society based on the exploitation of the previous exploiting class, the bourgeoisie, which it was suppressing. Why? Because their role as the ruling class is to destroy class society by eliminating the bourgeoisie as a class and establishing socialism. That is the power they have, not as in to exploit a new class. That would be impossible to do, actually, because the proletariat is such a large section of the world population. Once the working class fulfills their role as a ruling class, there are no more classes. So, there is no class to rule over, no power to give to give up, etc. It's been done. The state and class rule withered away. I'm surprised you're not an anarchist due to your opinions on power and the state.


Because it's not a matter of idealism. Once the dictatorship of the proletariat is established, the direct material interest of the class is in abolishing its own condition of slavery. That is, abolishing capitalism and replacing it with socialism. Once socialism is established the proletariat has been dissolved, since there are no class relations under socialism. Thus there is no longer a dictatorship of the proletariat. Thus there is no state but instead a general administration of common interests in the absence of class antagonism.

The idea that the proletariat would obstruct the withering away of the state is about as likely as the black slaves of Mississippi willingly returning themselves to slavery after the end of the American Civil War.



As above, we communists don't advocate for the eternal rule of the proletariat. We advocate the dictatorship of the proletariat because we understand that the proletariat is the only class that has a material interest in abolishing all classes, including itself.

Fair enough; you have your own theories as to how the revolution of the proletariat would/should be like and I won't challenge them. I only base my opinions on history's accounts of the closest things we have to revolutions.

Truthfully speaking, an actual revolution like you envision it has never taken place. So debating over what it may be like is simply speculation.

Nonetheless, I've already given my opinion on how I think they'd be in practice. :)

[tooAlive]

To conclude for now however, I'd just like to post the system which I advocate for.

My proposed system only has one simple rule:

One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.

I don't think there needs to be much more than that, as this one simple rule can apply to virtually any aspect of day to day life.

I also think with this rule, the discussion of social classes, economic policy, ect.. becomes irrelevant.

Simply treat others as you would like others to treat you.

Have a good night. ;)

[Brutus]

To answer the question of the thread: callous self-interest.

[Full Metal Bolshevik]

Let go of your preconcieved notions of communism and anarchism :) they're not what you're thinking
You can't assume that people who aren't Communists or anarchists don't know about Marxism. There's plenty of people who studies Marx and they place themselves on the non communist left or even on the right.

[Full Metal Bolshevik]

To conclude for now however, I'd just like to post the system which I advocate for.

My proposed system only has one simple rule:

One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.

I don't think there needs to be much more than that, as this one simple rule can apply to virtually any aspect of day to day life.

I also think with this rule, the discussion of social classes, economic policy, ect.. becomes irrelevant.

Simply treat others as you would like others to treat you.

Have a good night. ;)
Don't you think your employee's would like to be treated better than the way you treat them? Like, not being exploited?
Assuming your business employs people of course.

[G4b3n]

I can recall reading Lenin in high school and coming to the revelation that working people are a class that can and should utilize power for themselves and simply abolish the system that allows for exploiters to live by the labor of others.

[Sinister Intents]

You can't assume that people who aren't Communists or anarchists don't know about Marxism. There's plenty of people who studies Marx and they place themselves on the non communist left or even on the right.

Yeah I get this now, I was rather drunk when I was posting last night.

[G4b3n]

To conclude for now however, I'd just like to post the system which I advocate for.

My proposed system only has one simple rule:

One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.

I don't think there needs to be much more than that, as this one simple rule can apply to virtually any aspect of day to day life.

I also think with this rule, the discussion of social classes, economic policy, ect.. becomes irrelevant.

Simply treat others as you would like others to treat you.

Have a good night. ;)

Your one simple rule doesn't allow for profit and pretty much contradicts the entire bourgeois social system.

[tooAlive]

Your one simple rule doesn't allow for profit and pretty much contradicts the entire bourgeois social system.

Not at all.

What is profit? Is it the mere acquisition of capital you're referring to?

First of all, money is simply a means of exchange. It's done to make trading easier and we assign a value to our fiat currency to accomplish this purpose. Again, it makes trading and bartering much, much easier.

If there is a mutual exchange between two or more people, in which one party is happy to compensate the other party for goods or services they are providing, and this exchange mutually benefits both sides equally, the rule doesn't contradict itself at all.

[tooAlive]

Don't you think your employee's would like to be treated better than the way you treat them? Like, not being exploited?
Assuming your business employs people of course.

Why do you automatically assume my employees are being exploited? You don't know what they do, how much they're paid, or the benefits I provide for them.

Perhaps you just regard someone taking a profit off the labour of another to be automatic exploitation.

I think you revolutionaries are missing a huge point here.

Understandably you're unhappy with the status quo, and are advocating for a change. You have your ideas about profit and exploitation and that's perfectly fine; I won't argue them.

But in the meantime, we still live in a profit-driven world where those that have the power and ability to acquire the most capital live the most comfortably (theoretically, as there are things money can't buy).

In the meantime, people are still in need -- everywhere. The US, in Europe, all over the world pretty much. Besides marching and idealizing on forums, what else are you doing to ease the pain of others?

A lot of you have mentioned you're broke. That sucks, I've been there and it's not a fun place to be in. And perhaps worst of all is, there's not much you can do to help others in a similar condition besides give them hope.

So going back to the original point, you said implied my employees were being exploited because you assumed I was profiting from their labour. I can't imagine you have a very favorable opinion of myself either, but that's fine; I didn't come here looking for one.

But assuming you're right, that what I'm doing is inherently exploitation, what would you like me to do? Should I fire my employees, tell them they are now free from my exploitation and let my business fall to the ground, putting me in the same position as all my now newly-unemployed and broke employees?

Did it ever cross your mind that given the current status quo, my employees were much better off and happier working for me? Why not even ask what I was currently doing to make their lives easier and better, and simply assume they were exploited and unhappy?

The truth is, I currently don't employ anyone. But were I to have other people working for me, my line of work is unique in which a wage system would inherently be unfair (I think it is, in most cases, having worked those jobs myself).

So the best (and perhaps only) way I could compensate my employees for their work would be based on their production. I think this is a much more effective way to lead a business, as compensating employees based on their production or performance tends to make everyone want to perform better, seeing as they can take in a lot more earnings the better they perform, as opposed to a flat wage system that doesn't reward production.

It may not be the perfect world of communism, but given our current state of affairs, we may be waiting an entire lifetime to see the changes we want, while we could start making a difference today.

Happy new year, everyone.

[#FF0000]

Why do you automatically assume my employees are being exploited? You don't know what they do, how much they're paid, or the benefits I provide for them.

Regardless of their pay and benefits, it invariably must be lower than the value of what they produce.

[blake 3:17]

Children die from dirty water while others shit and piss into clean water.

[Full Metal Bolshevik]

snip

#FF0000 pretty much answered.

I can't say what you should do in my opinion without knowing exactly what you do. But for example, wouldn't it be fairer if both you and your hypothetical employee's co-owned the company?

btw #FF0000, I got a doubt, what if a company is not profiting? So the workers are actually receiving more than they produce? Do you consider then, that they are being exploited?

[#FF0000]

#FF0000 pretty much answered.

I can't say what you should do in my opinion without knowing exactly what you do. But for example, wouldn't it be fairer if both you and your hypothetical employee's co-owned the company?

btw #FF0000, I got a doubt, what if a company is not profiting? So the workers are actually receiving more than they produce? Do you consider then, that they are being exploited?

Yeah. Whether the boss knows how exploit effectively or not doesn't change the position of the working class. They're still gonna have to walk out of that factory and use their wages to buy the thing that they just put their labor into. They still have to sell their labor to survive.

[Rational Radical]

What killed the cop in my head was growing up as a working class black boy who didn't understand why he he struggled when his mother had a job, both sides of his family being engaged in some type of illegal activity because of class society(selling drugs/using drugs,robbery, gun possession,possibly worse things that are kept away from me etc.),thhe Autobiography of Malcolm X,reading about the BPP,the words of Frantz Fanon,getting stopped and frisked, the killings of Sean Bell, Oscar Grant, Amadou Diallo and I'm probably missing other shit but yeah,those pigs got lit the fuck up several times.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Personal experiences and "rational self-interest," (lawlz), pretty much.

[NGNM85]

Personal experiences and "rational self-interest," (lawlz), pretty much.

I don't mean to come off like a dick, but I very much doubt that. It's important to distinguish between your self interest, and your class interest. This distinction may seem trivial, but it's really crucial.

As for why I'm a (Libertarian) Socialist, I would say simply that it, at least as I define it, appears to me to be the most just, and equitable form of social organization, the best way to maximize human well-being, otherwise; I wouldn't be.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I don't mean to come off like a dick, but I very much doubt that. It's important to distinguish between your self interest, and your class interest. This distinction may seem trivial, but it's really crucial.

Ugh, I'm lumpenprole, thorough as fuck, it's within my own class and personal interests for the abolition of the state, capital, hierarchy, etc. is it not? Why can't I make a Rand joke? This is why people can't have nice things.

[tallguy]

Why am I a socialist?

I can't stand inequity, I can't stand injustice and I have an overwhelming sense of empathy with anyone who is dealt a hand from the shitty end of the deck. I have no particularly fancy reason to give you as to why. It's just how I'm wired. Probably to do with some boring cliché from my my childhood.

[Tenka]

Capitalism is bad for our future as a species, and it's bad for my present as an individual. Though I feel moral outrage at the countless fatal inequities that result from Capitalism, all the needless deaths and inane restrictions, I am a Communist not out of my moral outrage, but because Capitalism is really quite bad, and was always bad, and will be bad until it is overthrown. Bad, bad, bad. Bad like Cancer. That's not moralistic, then, is it? Of course it's good for the bourgeoisie, but it's bad for most of us as individuals, and all of us as a species. Bad. It's worse than Feudalism because it keeps a certain segment of the global population in Feudalistic conditions, regardless of the clear ability to produce for them, to furnish everyone luxuriously and modernly. Because of Capitalism we can logically conclude the possibility of Socialism, yet by a class wielding finances and all the power they have imbued finances with, we are kept from this possibility. They are not bad people, but they guard the system for the privileges it affords them, and the system is bad.

This post is bad in another way, because my internal editor is interned in Siberia.

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

My answer is embarrassing.

I did not start being politically-minded until three years ago. I used to (well, I still do) like the show, Boondocks a lot, and Huey Freeman served as the voice of reason. And that show made me look at society in a completely different way, as I was raised in an upper middle class suburban white kid kind of lifestyle. So Huey has pretty far left politics, and I noticed that and looked into it, and….. yep. I just developed from there. I've always disliked the government, though. I just never cared about the system or politics or anything like that until that show made me start thinking.

[tallguy]

My answer is embarrassing.

I did not start being politically-minded until three years ago. I used to (well, I still do) like the show, Boondocks a lot, and Huey Freeman served as the voice of reason. And that show made me look at society in a completely different way, as I was raised in an upper middle class suburban white kid kind of lifestyle. So Huey has pretty far left politics, and I noticed that and looked into it, and….. yep. I just developed from there. I've always disliked the government, though. I just never cared about the system or politics or anything like that until that show made me start thinking.You sound like you have always had a good heart and you just needed a trigger to find expression for it. Good on you mate. There are no bad reasons for discovering who you really are..

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I wasn't a worker when I first got interested in leftist ideologies (and by left i'm being broad - sort of social democracy/Tony Benn style old labour stuff), I just found it very interesting and, though I wasn't the poorest person in the world, I came from a household situation we'd call working class as Marxists.

Now i'm in it for the money because i'm poor as fuck and likely to be a worker forever :(

[Marxaveli]

For me, it was a combination of material conditions, as well as simply chance.

Before I went back to school I was your run-of-the mill liberal. However, I never really liked most of the jobs I worked at, since all I ever did was bust my ass and catch grief for it because it wasn't good enough for the bosses. By pure chance I took a political philosophy class and discovered Marx there. I found his work to be highly interesting and I wanted to learn more, so I did further investigation outside the classroom, and my politics began to move sharply to the left. Marx's theories just made complete sense to me, and I realized that we have been being duped all along. So here I am.....a full fledged, unapologetic Marxist, and there is no turning back - I will never look at the world the same way ever again because the Materialist conception of History is by far the most logical and best explanation of our social being ever developed.

[Rugged Collectivist]

I don't know anymore. I'm caught between altruism and egoism.

My borderline pathological disdain for authority probably comes into it as well.

[Scar]

Because I want a fair society.

[tooAlive]

Thanks to everyone for posting -- lots of great insights into what has made each of you gravitate towards the left.

Wishing you all a very blessed and prosperous new year. :)

[Ele'ill]

It's important to distinguish between your self interest, and your class interest. This distinction may seem trivial, but it's really crucial.


billions of dead selves serving the interests of a class

[IBleedRed]

I grew up in a blue-collar family. Watching my parents break their backs at work and still struggling to pay the bills, all the while the media were talking about how "lazy" the poor and those on welfare were, made it all click....but not until years later. I was a Ron Paul libertarian at one point, mostly because I bought into the notion that this wasn't "real" capitalism...but as I started to read more and expose myself to new ideas, I began to see capitalism not ideologically but historically.

[NGNM85]

billions of dead selves serving the interests of a class

....I'm sorry, but it's not clear to me what you mean by this.

[NGNM85]

Ugh, I'm lumpenprole, thorough as fuck, it's within my own class and personal interests for the abolition of the state, capital, hierarchy, etc. is it not? Why can't I make a Rand joke? This is why people can't have nice things.

I got the reference. That would be true if you could abolish capitalism by yourself, but you can't. That requires a mass movement of workers, being organized, having attained a sufficient level of class consciousness, etc., etc. Clearly, we've got quite a ways to go. Look at it this way, if I add up all the time, money, and energy I've devoted to radical politics, not just going to rallies, or whatever, but everything, the time spent on this website, the time, and money spent buying, and consuming radical literature, etc., it's probably a net economic loss, when you add it all up. So, there's the difference between class interest, and self interest. This distinction is most important for two reasons, first; it affirms the centrality of ethics to the socialist project. Unfortunately, Marx wrote very little, next to nothing, about ethics, specifically, and, as a result Marxists, historically, have tended not to write very much about it, and what little there is often tends to be intellectually shallow, with a few exceptions. Alex Callinicos referred to this as Marxisms'; 'ethical deficit.' (Incidentally, for a thorough examination of the ethical dimensions of Marxism, I would highly recommend Marxism and Ethics, by Paul Blackledge.) Anarchism has never had this problem, and, as such, this is one area where the Anarchists' come out ahead. In fact, this is one of the things that first attracted me to Anarchism. Second, this is important because it undermines another pernicious disease of the radical left, being economic determinism, which is, of course, a misunderstanding, a vulgarization of Marx.

[Oenomaus]

Well, Alex, Callincos, would, certainly, know, about; 'ethical', deficits. From his party's support for the mullah-led reaction to the recent scandals, it's as if he and his buddies have been taking pointers from Gerry Healy itself. As is usual, it turns out that the person that presumes to lecture others on morality is the most wretched one of the lot.

Here is the thing; I want to enjoy life without working myself to death, I want to survive curable diseases, I don't particularly want my best friend to be killed for having a girlfriend or being strapped down and forced to give birth. Is any of that moral? Me ne frego. Morality is the morality of the ruling class. All of those things are in my interest - and the only people who separate "class" from "personal" interest are members of the higher middle strata (who really can buy themselves a comfortable place in the present society), or people who, like Pablo in his day, think the transformation of society will take centuries.

[Mrcapitalist]

So, how can I possibly not be a communist,

Out of the 5 times I've been to Cuba, it's the one word I can remember being painted almost everywhere.

¡Viva la Revolución!

Many Cubans are still very patriotic about their revolution. Others not so much. But you can still see those words painted on most street corners and billboards. If there's any advertising allowed in Cuba, it's that one.



Wait are Cubans brainwashed?I thought Fidel El Castro was evil.

[Crabbensmasher]

"So you're saying capitalism demands a certain degree of poverty?"
"Yeah"
"So, like, this is it? This is the best we can possibly hope for?"
"I guess so"
"Well fuck that, I want a refund"

Also, what is money? You can't eat it, you can't sleep in it, you can't live in it. I guess you can burn it to keep warm. Before long, you'll be cold again though.


These are contributing factors, to name a couple

[Usawa]

I believe that happiness is the only intrinsic good and suffering is the only intrinsic bad and by extension that everyone's happiness is equally valuable and should be given equal consideration. The ideal system is one in which resources are distributed on the basis of benefit alone and the sole objective of any political or economic system should be to maximize the greatest possible ratio of happiness to suffering in the universe generally. I would give a utilitarian argument for a global communist economy and not a Marxist-Leninist one. Utilitarianism can justify promoting capitalism only to the extent that it can justify promoting ethical views other than utilitarianism because consistent practicing utilitarians would care impartially about everyone's interests with no special consideration to their own and the best way to maximize happiness or minimize suffering in the long run and on a widespread level is by persuading moral agents to care about everyone's emotional well-being indiscriminately. A communist economy that works on a widespread level will probably have to be achieved gradually through non-violent and democratic means but in principle I don't think that democracy is valuable. I wouldn't be opposed to a dictatorship with an explicitly hedonistic utilitarian agenda if they did not use unnecessary force and cared about the well-being of dissenters.

I don't consider myself to be a practicing utilitarian and I wouldn't call myself a communist but these positions are what my meta-ethical beliefs imply. I still have a lot to learn about politics and economics.

[Orange Juche]

I don't remember an exact moment of change.

But I just look around at the world and I'm just like... "Really? What the hell!" There's tons of vacant houses and tons of homeless people. I see poverty all the time. I've encountered police in circumstances which I then realized my whiteness allowed me to be treated like a human being, and my whiteness alone. I encounter homeless people, some of them really aren't with it... you can tell they need mental health treatment of some sort. I know many products I use and people in the first world (in my case, USA) use are thanks to extreme hyper-exploitation of the third world. Yet we have luxurious buildings and institutions of wealth, and morons think "capitalism works" because it resulted in them owning a fucking X-Box.

It makes me sick. But more than anything, it's just saddening - heartbreaking. I just don't get it. It's like some mass hysteria that people aren't universally WTFing at this. That even most of the well intentioned people say "small steps for change" and rely on some crooked bureaucracy of a "left-wing" party (HA!) to "reform capitalism" and make it work better - as if A) That will work, and B) The capitalists wont work immediately to undo any reforms they create alongside an astonishing propaganda campaign to stop it from happening again (see: The Red Scare).

That's why I'm a libertarian, a real libertarian (or: communist, socialist... whatever term floats your boat). Because this world is in an awful state, and the people, I mean the ones who say "I vote" or "I don't care about politics" or whatever else, in the societies with the power to change it are mostly limping around armless with one leg going "It's only a flesh wound!". People are apparently fucking delusional and, when things get bad enough that people decide they want to replace this system with a new one, it's good to have people (anarchists, communists, socialists) who understand ideas surrounding working cooperatively, consensus... and to have general ideas on what to build when there's FINALLY a relatively large movement of people who are like "well this sucks, so what should we do?"

[LOLseph Stalin]

Since the OP is actually being civil in the way he asks this question I'll gladly answer. My answer is a bit of a life story though so be forewarned.

Essentially I spent most of my life growing up in poverty so even from a young age I knew there was injustice in that some people had so much while others had so little. As I got older I continued questioning this, at about age 15 turning to what I knew as the most left-wing ideology at the time: social democracy. I also had an interest in history and one day when I was reading about the Russian Revolution the word "Bolsheviks" kept popping up and I seemed to like what they represented. Naturally as I tried to find out more this led me to Marx, which then led me to his writings. I found a link online that allowed me to read The Communist Manifesto. Realizing it contained many of the answers I was looking for, I was almost instantly radicalized once I completed it. I was 16 at the time.

This is the short version of course since I have read a lot more since then, but really that was my first introduction to communist theory. Also, talking to people online helped too as I didn't actually live in a town with an active leftist scene until just this summer. We're still pretty small, but I feel like we're slowly growing!

[Regicollis]

The short answer is that I'm a socialist because I think we should all be nice to each other. And when you think about it letting other people live in poverty or exploiting their labour is not a very nice thing to do.

Furthermore as far as I see it the current capitalist system is not sustainable. We are heading towards environmental disaster and depletion of naturel resources. The western consumerist life style is going to change dramatically whether we like it or not. A civilised and non-violent transition is simply impossible under an economic system that is dependant on growth.

Becoming a father has also reinforced my belief in socialism. I would like to pass a more just and pleasant world on to my children.

Sendt fra min HUAWEI Y300-0100 med Tapatalk

[Comrade Jacob]

To put it simply capitalism is unsustainable and the only was to reach an equal and healthy world is socialism.
The health of humanity and it's equality is something I hold dearly.

[Axiomasher]

Because the needs of the many outweigh the whims of the few.

[reb]

Because it's cool and edgy and I get to piss off my parents with my Stalin posters on my basement walls and my Stalin bust on my empty book case. They totes hate it when I play the Hymn of the Soviet Union on my 1968 east German record player.

[Sinister Intents]

Because it's cool and edgy and I get to piss off my parents with my Stalin posters on my basement walls and my Stalin bust on my empty book case. They totes hate it when I play the Hymn of the Soviet Union on my 1968 east German record player.

Damn sounds cool! I play some nice death metal for my parents and they hate my appearance, and my politics. Think I'm still like an angsty fucking teenager and I'm not, pisses me the fuck off.

[Diirez]

Damn sounds cool! I play some nice death metal for my parents and they hate my appearance, and my politics. Think I'm still like an angsty fucking teenager and I'm not, pisses me the fuck off.
Where I'm from, if you say you're a Socialist or a Communist everyone thinks you're just an angsty teenager. Just say "Down with the system!" every time your parents give you a judgmental look :lol:

[DoCt SPARTAN]

I'm disgusted by the inequality of classes, nations, etc. And all the capitalist imperialism and hypocrisy!

[Future]

I could write a book answering this question in detail, because there are many important reasons why I am a socialist. But to be very brief, I am a socialist because I am convinced of the validity of libertarianism and historical materialism. Capitalism and the state contradict what I believe to be in the best interest of humanity - they stunt human progress and deny human freedom. These systems also create their own grave diggers; they cannot last, they will fall, and the communist society is scientifically bound to emerge.

I, perhaps foolishly, have faith in my species. I believe that we humans, as totally fucked up as we are, have the potential for greatness. We can achieve great things and create a better world if we work together as a people. I am firmly convinced that authoritarianism and capitalism are contradictory to this goal. Socialism is ethically and scientifically superior to the current state of things - and I give it my full support.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'm just curious to know what personal experiences have led you all to subscribe to leftist ideologies such as socialism and communism.

You can go into detail about your experiences, or not. It's up to you. I'd just like to know what exactly is it that drives a person to your side of the political spectrum.

Was it a financial struggle, someone you met, a family member, professor, experiencing poverty, seeing others in poverty, ect.. Or perhaps some of you are actually very well off financially. No specifics necessary if you don't want to, just a brief description of what it was that made leftism "click" for you.

Ok, well I guess the background is that I'm from a racially mixed family and was always disturbed by the racism that seemed to be gaining ground when I was younger. My parents are both union members and went on strikes, so my sort of handed-down politics were sort of post-hippie (my dad was a Vietnam draftee and so was always very suspicious of US militarism in a general way) pre-DLC Democratic Party liberalism but in high school and the Clinton years I really grew disenchanted with that and basically considered myself "apolitical" even though I actually did care a lot about things that were no longer part of the mainstream "politics" (like working class rights, anti-racism/sexism, etc). But I felt alienated and didn't feel like mainstream politics really had much to offer me or people like me. When the anti-globalization movement happened, I saw that there could be an alternative that did talk about the experiences I saw around me (less job security and just a harder time in general while the US was expanding rapidly). So this made me re-conceive how I thought about politics (i.e. it could be real life things, rather than what was talked about in electoral politics). Over a couple of years I began to be interested in syndicalism as a way that workers could fight-back, regain some of the ground lost during my lifetime (80-90s), etc. Essentially my experience was that racism/sexism were getting worse and things were getting harder and harder for people like my family to get by. I saw radical politics as being the best at addressing and connecting these concerns in ways that jived with my lived experience.


Also, I'd like to know if any of you have actually lived in a country that has "claimed to be" socialist or communist or experienced a leftist regime first-hand.No I barely traveled outside of Northern California until I was in my 20s.

[Rosa Partizan]

Some days ago, I read that the 85 wealthiest people in the world have the same amount of money as the 3,5 bn. Facts like these and some voluntary commitment have led to the conclusion that the imbalanced distribution of goods is cause as well as result of so much hardship and misery. One's wealth in this world means that there's always someone who has to compromisse, to cut back massively. And yeah, I know that I'm part of this system and that I can't escape from it as long as I want to be a part of society.

[Blake's Baby]

I'm just curious to know what personal experiences have led you all to subscribe to leftist ideologies such as socialism and communism...

I'm just curious to know what personal experiences have led you to subscribe to rightist ideologies such as liberalism and fascism.


You can go into detail about your experiences, or not. It's up to you. I'd just like to know what exactly is it that drives a person to your side of the political spectrum...

Well, exactly.


Was it a financial struggle, someone you met, a family member, professor, experiencing poverty, seeing others in poverty, ect.. Or perhaps some of you are actually very well off financially. No specifics necessary if you don't want to, just a brief description of what it was that made leftism "click" for you...

I'd say: Was it being born in an easy life, someone you met, a family member, professor, experiencing vast wealth, seeing others withvast wealth, etc.. Or perhaps you are actually very badly off financially. No specifics necessary if you don't want to, just a brief description of what it was that made capitalism "click" for you...

[jakedragonsly3r]

Because it allows everyone to be equal and have a decent life and doesnt make it so that those who own the means to production can abuse and use thier workers for their own benifit.

[Creative Destruction]

i have a deep, unbridled desire to see white people dead.