mass demonstrations and heavy clashes in istanbul again...

[Sasha]

Small background;
The turkish ruling party got embroiled in a corruption scandal after it picked an inter reactionary fight with their former allies the powerful conservative Ghulen movement over ao the state funding of their religious private schools.
The Ghullens used their influence in the police and justice departments (previously happelly exploited by the ruling party to break the grip of the army) to unleash corruption charges against a whole swath of prominent ministers and their family, even the son of prime minister Erdoghan is implicated.
The ruling party in turn is trying to purge the guhlen movement
This seemingly has rekindled the uprisings in turkey of the last summer. While the conflict like said started as an inner reactionary factional fight there are now mass demonstrations again that breeth as far as I hear in everything the progressive spirit of the Taksim movement. Tonight a mass demonstration on Taksim square got before it even started brutally dispersed with teargas and rubberbullets. The protesters replied in kind with heavy fireworks and baricades. Last I heard there are still heavy clashes continuing in the traditional leftist neighborhoods of Istanbul.
I'll post some glorious riotporn later.

[Devrim]

I'll post some glorious riotporn later.

What's the point? Does it help anyone to understand anything?

Devrim

[Ele'ill]

What's the point? Does it help anyone to understand anything?

Devrim

I think videos and photos of events help. A lot of times folks end up asking specific questions about the situation based on something they saw in the videos or photos. And because it is therapeutic to watch cops get shit on by an avalanche of bricks n things

[bcbm]

What's the point?

vicarious living


Does it help anyone to understand anything?


not in the slightest

[Sasha]

tonight there where demonstrations and clashes again, this time more strongly in the capital ankara, the facebookpage "enough is enough" has lots of pictures: https://www.facebook.com/enough14

[Sasha]

also clashes in istanbul after the cops attacked a demonstration in remembrance of an army massacre of Kurdish civilians in 2011

[Qayin]

Victory to the Turkish People!

[Venas Abiertas]

tonight there where demonstrations and clashes again, this time more strongly in the capital ankara, the facebookpage "enough is enough" has lots of pictures: https://www.facebook.com/enough14

I just checked out the Facebook page. Fighting in Turkey, South Korea, and Germany.

I'm totally ignorant about Turkey. If the current government falls, what will replace it? Social democracy, or Islamic fundamentalism? Or both? Or neither? What's going on there? Who are the protesters and what exactly do they want? I see that they're protesting corruption but what is their solution? Are they organized? Do they have leaders?

[Devrim]

I think videos and photos of events help. A lot of times folks end up asking specific questions about the situation based on something they saw in the videos or photos.

I don't think that it helps in anyway at all. I think that it leads to a complete lack of understanding a fetishisation of violence for its own sake. There is no attempt to understand what a particular struggle means and what class forces are represented at all. Just a focus on the methods used.


And because it is therapeutic to watch cops get shit on by an avalanche of bricks n things

If you think that watching violence is therapeutic then you have serious problems.

Devrim

[Devrim]

vicarious living
...
not in the slightest

At least the nihilist view is more honest. I think that it ends up in a sort of Kautskyian the movement is everything, which is sort of ironic in a way.

Devrim

[Devrim]

I'm totally ignorant about Turkey. If the current government falls, what will replace it? Social democracy, or Islamic fundamentalism? Or both? Or neither? What's going on there? Who are the protesters and what exactly do they want? I see that they're protesting corruption but what is their solution? Are they organized? Do they have leaders?

At least some people want to understand. Why don't you inform us Psycho?


Victory to the Turkish people!

...and some people don't.

Devrim

[Ele'ill]

I don't think that it helps in anyway at all. I think that it leads to a complete lack of understanding a fetishisation of violence for its own sake. There is no attempt to understand what a particular struggle means and what class forces are represented at all. Just a focus on the methods used.

I don't know if you're being serious or trying your hand at trolling here. Part of some situations involves occupations, street fighting, etc.. and there are videos and photos of it. It's part of what's happening. When folks hear about 'clashes' it can be hard to imagine what that actually looks like, it is hard to imagine what various clashes, actions look like. It is hard to imagine for some folks, what open confrontation with state power looks like. Certainly an animated gif of some pig getting molotved in the face isn't a summary of events but tbh neither often is a simple summary of events or detailed analysis.




If you think that watching violence is therapeutic then you have serious problems.

DevrimI think that violent flames licking up violenty from violently barricaded streets filled with cobble stones violently uprooted to be violently thrown at my enemies invokes a feeling I can connect with in solidarity, through struggle. Most of the time when I read or view media on clashes with the state I get scared for the folks risking prison and death but hey without struggle we're risking prison and death.



riot porn makes you smarter

[Sasha]

I just checked out the Facebook page. Fighting in Turkey, South Korea, and Germany.

I'm totally ignorant about Turkey. If the current government falls, what will replace it? Social democracy, or Islamic fundamentalism? Or both? Or neither? What's going on there? Who are the protesters and what exactly do they want? I see that they're protesting corruption but what is their solution? Are they organized? Do they have leaders?

I think the pairlametary outcome is gonna be same shit differnt gravy, its likely the current power of the conservative Islamist AK party might over soon, the only viable alternative is the Kemalist republican party CHP who are no less rightwing and corrupt. But if the streets mannage to unseat the regime, evin if it for now will only end up with an change of assholes in power is still an important thing, not only because through struggle people get politicised (i have seen Turkish former classmates transform from voting here Greens at best, to now building baricades and throwing rocks but also organizing in general assemblies etc on the streets of Istanbul in less than a year) but it also points to a new dynamic possibility in Turkey. The currrent regime might have broken the power of the army so far that maybe in time, radical leftist movements become viable again (till now the army/deepstate always brutally butchered any infant leftist movement in its crib).

[ckaihatsu]

Anti-corruption demonstration turns violent in Istanbul

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNza_j_Furc


Residents fed up with Erdogan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcU5x1ldorU


Protesters clash in Turkey in aftermath of corruption scandal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubvt4pdxdSE


Protests erupt in Turkey over corruption probe into gov.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEp6jEFt1Qw


Trapped - RT crew caught in Turkey tear gas mayhem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38lnJs525Is


Turkish supporters cheer Erdogan as protesters clash with police

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnH1poZrixA

[Devrim]

I don't know if you're being serious or trying your hand at trolling here.

I am completely serious. Deeply object to these sort of politics, and their fascination with violence. I think that they have nothing at all to offer. It is the 'anarchist' equivalent of posting some thread about North Korea or Enver Hoxha, and shows an equal lack of political understanding of anything at all.


Part of some situations involves occupations, street fighting, etc.. and there are videos and photos of it. It's part of what's happening. When folks hear about 'clashes' it can be hard to imagine what that actually looks like, it is hard to imagine what various clashes, actions look like. It is hard to imagine for some folks, what open confrontation with state power looks like.

That might be the case today especially for people living in places with really low levels of class conflict. I grew up in a different time and place to that. For me its hard to imagine that people, on the left, don't know what it is like, but thinking about it it must be true.

Do you think that this fighting with the state is an important part of these movements though? Is it at the herat of these events, or is it just a by-product?

Is violence the sign of the weakness or strength of a movement?

Surely the important thing when these sort of movements burst out is the class composition of the movement, and how it relates to workers acting in their own interests as a class, not whether somebody throws something at the police or not.


I think the pairlametary outcome is gonna be same shit differnt gravy, its likely the current power of the conservative Islamist AK party might over soon, the only viable alternative is the Kemalist republican party CHP who are no less rightwing and corrupt. But if the streets mannage to unseat the regime, evin if it for now will only end up with an change of assholes in power is still an important thing,

How do you think that this can happen? What mechanism would be involved? If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.


but it also points to a new dynamic possibility in Turkey. The currrent regime might have broken the power of the army so far that maybe in time, radical leftist movements become viable again (till now the army/deepstate always brutally butchered any infant leftist movement in its crib).

This is not true. The 'left' in Turkey is much stronger than the left in Western Europe, and was much stronger before the army's power was recently broken by the current government. The army never managed to destroy the Turkish 'left', and even after the 1980 coup it survived. The real questions are not about the left, but about the working class. The left are all out in the streets now, much of it talking about confrontations with the police and 'struggles'. The question is not what these people do. It doesn't really matter they will do it anyway, but what the working class does.

Devrim

[Ele'ill]

I am completely serious. Deeply object to these sort of politics, and their fascination with violence. I think that they have nothing at all to offer. It is the 'anarchist' equivalent of posting some thread about North Korea or Enver Hoxha, and shows an equal lack of political understanding of anything at all.


so pictures/videos/texts/discussion on everything else is okay but def. not about violence, clashes, sabotage, occupation/repurposing of space, folks violently removing police from neighborhoods, physical acts of solidarity, barricades (all the stuff usually seen in such video and picture montages) Sounds kind of stunted.






That might be the case today especially for people living in places with really low levels of class conflict. I grew up in a different time and place to that. For me its hard to imagine that people, on the left, don't know what it is like, but thinking about it it must be true.

Yes. People doing what others have only read about.



Do you think that this fighting with the state is an important part of these movements though? Is it at the herat of these events, or is it just a by-product? Is violence the sign of the weakness or strength of a movement?

Maybe it's the movements that are problematic and the by product, violent clashes, is because of it. Maybe it's the only healthy functioning part of many of these movements. Maybe it's something that just happpens and the movements cannot function apparently with adventurism because deviation is completely crippling, a snap shot of the future. Some folks don't want to be controlled and the streets is the better offer.






Surely the important thing when these sort of movements burst out is the class composition of the movement, and how it relates to workers acting in their own interests as a class, not whether somebody throws something at the police or not.

so there's no workers working in their class interest right now? If not, when it happens are you saying there would be no clash? Would it be okay to post those pictures and videos?




I think you taking what psycho said about riot porn literally is a bit dishonest and you're taking it a little too far but I understand your concerns and there is valid criticism to be met against the reciprocating imagery and play out of events during these types of situations of unrest. Sometimes it appears like autopilot and there's no sustaining it we all know how it ends.

[Devrim]

so pictures/videos/texts/discussion on everything else is okay but def. not about violence, clashes, sabotage, occupation/repurposing of space, folks violently removing police from neighborhoods, physical acts of solidarity, barricades (all the stuff usually seen in such video and picture montages) Sounds kind of stunted.

No, there is nothing wrong with a discussion of these things. The problem is that this is the only thing that people want to discuss about a situation, and it, obviously due to this being the case, endears particularly ignorant discussions by people who generally have little idea about either the context of the specific situation or the reality of the sort of actions you describe.


Maybe it's the movements that are problematic and the by product, violent clashes, is because of it. Maybe it's the only healthy functioning part of many of these movements. Maybe it's something that just happpens and the movements cannot function apparently with adventurism because deviation is completely crippling, a snap shot of the future. Some folks don't want to be controlled and the streets is the better offer.
...
so there's no workers working in their class interest right now? If not, when it happens are you saying there would be no clash? Would it be okay to post those pictures and videos?

I don't really understand what you are saying here at all. Could you rephrase it for me, please?


I think you taking what psycho said about riot porn literally is a bit dishonest and you're taking it a little too far but I understand your concerns and there is valid criticism to be met against the reciprocating imagery and play out of events during these types of situations of unrest. Sometimes it appears like autopilot and there's no sustaining it we all know how it ends.

I don't think that it is dishonest at all. I think that Psycho exemplifies this sort of fetishism of violent actions. He comes from a political culture (North European autonomism) which is completely obsessed by itself and its 'violent' actions against the state in isolation from any wider social forces (the thread he started recently about some demonstration in German being a good example). It is sort of like 'the movement is everything', but with no focus on goals, understanding, or anything wider than this movement itself. Where have we heard that before?

Devrim

[Sasha]

Mwah, fetishising anti-state violence and existing counter culture seems rather useful compared to fetishising a fordist working-class that has been dissapearing for decades and what remains is drenched in reactionary self interest.

[Devrim]

Mwah, fetishising anti-state violence and existing counter culture...

Well at least you realise what you are doing.


...seems rather useful...

Even if you are deeply confused about its effectiveness.

I don't think that counter-culture is something that is going to destroy capitalism, and the state however many petrol bombs they throw.

Also these sort of counter cultures, by their very nature, tend to be deeply individualistic, and influenced by petite-bourgeois ideology.



...rather useful compared to fetishising a fordist working-class that has been dissapearing for decades...

The working class has been undergoing massive structural changes for decades now, and it is really having difficulty reasserting itself as a class. That is very clear. This doesn't mean though that the working class has ceased to exist, nor that the sections of it that still correspond to the traditional 'mass worker' still have an inordinate amount of potential political power. When the Egyptian state decided to get rid of Mubarak, it was not due to massive demonstrations in the streets alone, but more due to the mere threat of massive strike action.


and what remains is drenched in reactionary self interest.

Self interest has always been seen by communists as a key factor in the development of class consciousness. Personally, I find it much less off-putting than the reactionary individualistic idealist petite-bourgeois self-righteousness that perpetuates counter cultures.

This article (http://libcom.org/library/street-protests-class-power) discusses some of the problems with the relationship between street protests and workplace struggles. You should read it.

Devrim

[Ele'ill]

No, there is nothing wrong with a discussion of these things. The problem is that this is the only thing that people want to discuss about a situation, and it, obviously due to this being the case, endears particularly ignorant discussions by people who generally have little idea about either the context of the specific situation or the reality of the sort of actions you describe.


I don't think that it is dishonest at all. I think that Psycho exemplifies this sort of fetishism of violent actions. He comes from a political culture (North European autonomism) which is completely obsessed by itself and its 'violent' actions against the state in isolation from any wider social forces (the thread he started recently about some demonstration in German being a good example). It is sort of like 'the movement is everything', but with no focus on goals, understanding, or anything wider than this movement itself. Where have we heard that before

Devrim, this thread is not bloated with pictures and videos and honestly you have not contributed anything other than being mopey about the fact that it could possibly eventually be which is incredibly silly. You are the only person forcing conversation about smash, I don't even want to talk about it anymore tbh


*edit i kind of do want to talk about it as a lot of folks do it's far more interesting than what you've proposed, or haven't actually proposed actually




I don't really understand what you are saying here at all. Could you rephrase it for me, please?I don't really know what part of it you didn't understand so I don't know how to rephrase it.

[Sasha]

This article (http://libcom.org/library/street-protests-class-power) discusses some of the problems with the relationship between street protests and workplace struggles. You should read it.

i have read it, and while i agree with many of its criticisms of activism and protest the alternative offered is even worse shit, the only goal for the working class should be its self liquidation.

i hope Ravachol will be able to translate this piece soon into english: http://cerclenoir.wordpress.com/2013/12/23/the-point-of-no-return/
its really good.

[cyu]

http://www.reddit.com/r/Turkey/comments/1u02kj/scenes_from_istanbul_protests/

http://i.imgur.com/2KJya3O.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/1dl8h6a.jpg

[Devrim]

i have read it, and while i agree with many of its criticisms of activism and protest the alternative offered is even worse shit, the only goal for the working class should be its self liquidation.

This is just meaningless jargon to you though. In communist theory the working class liquidates itself by seizing power, establishing its dictatorship, and destroying all classes. You don't believe in the working class seizing power though, so to you this is just another half understood phrase which fuels the sub-cultural nonsense, which you try to pass off as some sort of socialist politics.

Devrim

[Ele'ill]

So Devrim what is the ultra attractive alternative to what's doing on right now (still waiting)

[ckaihatsu]

Clashes go into the night in Turkey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_6EpyTIfBI


Turkish police fire tear gas, water cannons on Istanbul protesters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJRljT7raiQ