Is British Trotskyism dying?

[The Idler]

Is British Trotskyism dying?
Following the weekend conference which seemed to put the nail in the coffin of the SWP, I was reading through the comments on various blogs and someone mentioned they thought British Trotskyist organisations altogether might be taken down with the SWP sinking ship.
Looking at the other Trotskyist organisations in Britain, they consist of SPEW/CWI, Socialist Appeal/IMT. Maybe the AWL and WRP too. Reckon any will drop Trotskyism?

[Art Vandelay]

Looking at the other Trotskyist organisations in Britain, they consist of SPEW/CWI, Socialist Appeal/IMT. Maybe the AWL and WRP too. Reckon any will drop Trotskyism?

Is your question whether or not the CWI or the IMT will abandon Trotskyism in favor of some other Marxist tendency?

[Le Socialiste]

Could you shed some light on this weekend conference the SWP had, Idler?

[Red Commissar]

Could you shed some light on this weekend conference the SWP had, Idler?

I would like to know too, as best I can understand from blurbs here and there, it appears that there were some resignation(s) again.

[blake 3:17]

Is British Trotskyism dying?
Following the weekend conference which seemed to put the nail in the coffin of the SWP, I was reading through the comments on various blogs and someone mentioned they thought British Trotskyist organisations altogether might be taken down with the SWP sinking ship.
Looking at the other Trotskyist organisations in Britain, they consist of SPEW/CWI, Socialist Appeal/IMT. Maybe the AWL and WRP too. Reckon any will drop Trotskyism?

The blah blah blah of the intricacies are so dull. Let's hope so.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Hmm. I've watched British Trotskyism from the sidelines for a while and I'm not sure. The international marxist tendency seems to be doing just what it usually does, they recently set up some youth Marxism societies around various British universities, and apparently they have gotten 2000 people to sign up, or at least according to their own numbers:

http://www.marxist.com/marxist-student-federation.htm

Also a couple years back they managed to elect some representatives to the Oxford and Cambridge student government, so they are at least present and have an actually existing social base. The CWI branch in Britain, the SPEW spawned off of the IMT and they don't really have anything in particular drawing people to them, they don't have any spectacular coalitions or fronts like the SWP nor do they do anything particularly groundbreaking in theory or practice. But they have been able to elect representatives to various councils and I imagine they will be able to continue doing so. There is really no reason to believe either group is in decline in Britain.

Though what made the SWP unique in British Trotskyism is that it was probably the only group that really came close to entering the political mainstream, they had their odd ball celebrities, various front groups, and those coalitions. Although alot of people make fun of RESPECT it's worth noting that even if they didn't managed to pull off creating a large political force, the fact that they were able to unite with such a wide variety of groups from the Muslim community and beyond, shows that they were probably the most serious, well organized group in Britain. Plus I'd say that they were far more successful with winning over trade unions than either the IMT or the CWI were, which is quite funny to think since both of those groups are far more unhealthy in the way they fetishize the union movement. Before the final collapse, low estimates of the SWP's membership put them at 2000, that's pretty damn impressive for a left sect. The SWP was probably the only trot sect that actually was able to represent a marginal section of the labor aristocracy that all other sects tried to appeal to. The SWP was the only Trotskyist group that had a potential to grow while the CWI and the IMT can only really get enough new members to prevent them from declining. Now that they're gone, Trotskyism has hit its dead end and has dissolved itself into the social democracy of Left Unity. Ah well, I suppose it was inevitable that collapse and social democracy would be the end result of composing ones organizations from the most reactionary elements of the working class.

[Hit The North]

Voted 'other': it never lived. Only two "Trotskyist" groups in the UK have ever really mattered (1) Militant Tendency, who's entry-ism, Trotsky would have found an anathema; and (2) the SWP who have never really been "Trotskyist" anyway.

Re. the recent conference, the left in the UK needs a period of creative destruction anyway, so if the familiar acronyms disappear it will be better than being a kind of mummified ghost like the SPGB.

[human strike]

Bring out your dead. :)

[Alexios]

Trotskyism is basically the most pathetic and lifeless entity on the planet

[goalkeeper]

Hmm. I've watched British Trotskyism from the sidelines for a while and I'm not sure. The international marxist tendency seems to be doing just what it usually does, they recently set up some youth Marxism societies around various British universities, and apparently they have gotten 2000 people to sign up, or at least according to their own numbers:


lol mate, just the IMT blowing their own trumpet. the IMT has an effective monopoly on the name Marxist Society within UK universities for some reason. they usually draw decent numbers from students interested in Marxism and socialism in general at the start of the academic year, but attendance drops off and few actually sign up to their 'organisation' and begin actually embracing the intricacies of the IMT's world-view (which the IMT necessarily doesn't push too hard at the general society meetings, at least at first). getting a couple thousand students to sign up to attending your society in the first couple weeks of term isn't very impressive tbh. its a small number out of something like 2million students in the UK in total and even then, everyone signs up to a bunch of societies in the first weeks of uni just out of interest and in the spirit of 'trying out new stuff'.

[Fourth Internationalist]

I voted dead, though I am sure there are a number of genuine Trotskyists in Britain despite not being organized in a group.

[Sam_b]

Trotskyism is basically the most pathetic and lifeless entity on the planet

Verbal warning for trolling. Don't try and stir up stuff on here with contentless posts.

[blake 3:17]

I really like this piece by Alan Wald on the end of American Trotskyism:

Part 1 http://www.solidarity-us.org/site/node/2968

Part 2 http://www.solidarity-us.org/site/node/2856

Part 3 (the best IMHO)
http://www.solidarity-us.org/site/node/2853

[bcbm]

god willing...

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

hope so

[The Idler]

Is your question whether or not the CWI or the IMT will abandon Trotskyism in favor of some other Marxist tendency?
Apart from the RCG, Trots dropping Trotskyism aren't that common are they?

[Czy]

Voted 'other': it never lived.

/thread

[freecommunist]

If it's not, we can only hope so soon, though whether pro-revolutionaries will gain from it is another story. Stalinists still exists as this site shows, even with the demise of there "socialist paradise" and satellite states.

[ed miliband]

If it's not, we can only hope so soon, though whether pro-revolutionaries will gain from it is another story. Stalinists still exists as this site shows, even with the demise of there "socialist paradise" and satellite states.

and the labour party and its left-wing apologists will linger on and on and on.

[Le Socialiste]

Charlie Hore has resigned apparently, along with a number of other 'high-profile' cadre.

Have to love the number of insightful posts, btw. :rolleyes:

[Hit The North]

If it's not, we can only hope so soon, though whether pro-revolutionaries will gain from it is another story. Stalinists still exists as this site shows, even with the demise of there "socialist paradise" and satellite states.

And, meanwhile, the massed ranks of "left communists" continue to hold their conferences in telephone boxes.

[Remus Bleys]

And, meanwhile, the massed ranks of "left communists" continue to hold their conferences in telephone boxes.
Honestly this depends on the location of the group. Obviously some locations are going to end up with limited militants who are going to have no choice but communicate by phone, and I am sure this is true in the case of some trotskyist groups.
Also the fact that this isn't really - no, it just isn't - true.
Not really sure why you posted this.

[Geiseric]

Hopefully a better group can form out of the ashes, without bureaucrats in the making in charge. Meanwhile the 4th international section in Algeria grows to ten thousand.

[Sam_b]

And, meanwhile, the massed ranks of "left communists" continue to hold their conferences in telephone boxes

This sort of comment is totally unwarranted in a thread like this, you should really know this sort of thing by now.

[Hit The North]

This sort of comment is totally unwarranted in a thread like this, you should really know this sort of thing by now.

Why not? It seems like a tempered response to someone who is wishing the demise of my tendency.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Charlie Hore has resigned apparently, along with a number of other 'high-profile' cadre.

Have to love the number of insightful posts, btw. :rolleyes:

Yeah I'm not sure why the idler hinted at it but then ignored all the requests for details. I just had to sift through a bunch of gross trot blogs as a result. Anyhow it looks like just about the entire opposition faction that grew out of the sexual assault incidents has resigned. I guess someone in the CC made a statement that "women and children sometimes lie" before they all put themselves up for reelection at their last conference lol. Very classy.

[Sam_b]

It seems like a tempered response to someone who is wishing the demise of my tendency.

Except that's not what the OP is doing, if for one second you can in fact separate what the OP has said from the rep that OP has. The SWP is collapsing, there are serious issues which are likely to come to a head with the SPEW and organisational activity is at a critical low in many organisations. A one-liner about how another tendency is doing does not reverse this, nor does it actually have anything to do with the post. Politics is not some sort of dick-swinging contest about strength.

[Hit The North]

Except that's not what the OP is doing, if for one second you can in fact separate what the OP has said from the rep that OP has.

But the response of mine you find problematic is not a response to the OP, it is a response to comrade freecommunist, which is why I quoted him in the offending post (you really should know how this works by now).


The SWP is collapsing, there are serious issues which are likely to come to a head with the SPEW and organisational activity is at a critical low in many organisations. A one-liner about how another tendency is doing does not reverse this, nor does it actually have anything to do with the post.I had already addressed the OP in a previous post where I argue that the left needs a period of creative destruction. Maybe in your haste to wield your moderator authority, you missed this?


Politics is not some sort of dick-swinging contest about strength.
Well that's a point of view you're entitled to. Other points of view, of course, are available.

[Sam_b]

But the response of mine you find problematic is not a response to the OP, it is a response to comrade freecommunist, which is why I quoted him in the offending post (you really should know how this works by now).

This is the point - why aren't you engaging with the OP and the constructive stuff that's been said in the thread, rather than trying to stir stuff up?

What does the post achieve? What point are you making, that left communists are numerically very small? Well congratulations on stating the obvious - it doesn't add anything new or relevant. It's pretty much just flamebait. I know how this works.

Now please, let's get back on topic.

[Hit The North]

This is the point - why aren't you engaging with the OP and the constructive stuff that's been said in the thread, rather than trying to stir stuff up?


I have already engaged constructively with the OP. Have you? What's the ISG view on this question?


What does the post achieve? What point are you making, that left communists are numerically very small?Yes, that's part of the point. Before comrade freecommunist wishes for the destruction of a significant tradition within the British left, he should maybe think about what this might leave us with.


Now please, let's get back on topic.I agree, you've derailed it long enough ;)

[Sam_b]

Saying to get back on topic was not an invitation to post again with this stuff in this thread when visitor messages and PMs are readily available.

[Hit The North]

Saying to get back on topic was not an invitation to post again with this stuff in this thread when visitor messages and PMs are readily available.

I reserve my right to respond on a public forum to criticisms made of me on a public forum. Next time you decide to micro-manage my interactions perhaps you should pm me.

But to get things back on track, what is your opinion on the question of the death of British Trotskyism? Is the ISG nominally a Trotskyist organisation and what do you think of its chances of rebuilding and filling the void left by other disintegrating parties?

[Comrade Jacob]

All of the left in Britain is dead in organisation.
Other than the Swazzers of course, I hope they will go away soon.

[GerrardWinstanley]

If anything is dying in British politics, I might be inclined to say the Left in general (although I hope I'm wrong). I don't think democratic centralism, at least the warped version practiced by the SWP, will entirely recover from the rape scandal that put the secretive party bureaucracy under the spotlight, but whatever fills that vacuum left by the SWP is a very open question.

I expect to see more vague, lowest common dominator stuff like Left Unity to spring up. On the plus side, there should be less swamping of every anti-war or Palestine-related demo with SWP and Counterfire placques from now on. :grin:

[Remus Bleys]

All of the left in Britain is dead in organisation.
Other than the Swazzers of course, I hope they will go away soon.
what are swazzers
i did a google search and could not find anything

[TheEmancipator]

what are swazzers
i did a google search and could not find anything

SWP I believe

[Comrade Jacob]

what are swazzers
i did a google search and could not find anything

swp

[Hit The North]

All of the left in Britain is dead in organisation.
Other than the Swazzers of course, I hope they will go away soon.

So are you saying that you want no socialist or communist organisation at all in Britain?



On the plus side, there should be less swamping of every anti-war or Palestine-related demo with SWP and Counterfire placques from now on. :grin:

Who's placards would you want to see on these demos instead?

[TheEmancipator]

swp

Didn't they ally themselves with Respect at one stage? Is that still on?

[Comrade Jacob]

Didn't they ally themselves with Respect at one stage? Is that still on?

I'm not sure.

[GerrardWinstanley]

Who's placards would you want to see on these demos instead?I don't know, really. Is any small, unpopular party important enough to have their name emblazoned on anywhere up to 50% of the banners at a protest? Actually, to be fair, Counterfire don't seem anywhere near as bad at this.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Counterfire is basically composed of the same people who helped organise a million people marching in London in the anti-war movement and then ran it into the ground to achieve absolutely nothing.

[TheEmancipator]

Counterfire is basically composed of the same people who helped organise a million people marching in London in the anti-war movement and then ran it into the ground to achieve absolutely nothing.

Haha, I remember seeing this on the internet back then...


http://www.quickmeme.com/img/e4/e49f086f2a321ce88ff4a5f908f2846943d88432d411beb894 c5f70fcae53ad4.jpg

[Hit The North]

I don't know, really. Is any small, unpopular party important enough to have their name emblazoned on anywhere up to 50% of the banners at a protest? Actually, to be fair, Counterfire don't seem anywhere near as bad at this.

It's not about being "important enough" it's the fact that the SWP put a lot of energy and resources into building these demonstrations, getting people bused down, etc. and provide placards with slogans that people are free to ignore or tear off the top strap line which proclaims 'Socialist Worker' if they appreciate the slogan. My fear is that the absence of these placards will signify the absence of people on the ground. Without activist organisation will the demonstrations get organised in the first place?


Counterfire is basically composed of the same people who helped organise a million people marching in London in the anti-war movement and then ran it into the ground to achieve absolutely nothing.

Yeah, but there's only so much you can do with an anti-war movement. Look at the heritage of the anti-Vietnam war movement.

[Le Socialiste]

Since The Idler doesn't seem all too interested in actually discussing what occurred during the SWP's weekend conference, I'll post this resignation letter from Pat Stack which shines a light on some of the proceedings:


Dear Charlie Next May I would have been in the SWP for 40 years. In my 39 years in the IS/SWP, 20 of those working full time for the organisation, there were of course many ups and downs. But I was always sure that this was my political home.

I was chosen to be our representative on the NUS executive, became a full-timer, got elected onto the Central Committee, on which I served for 12 years. I look back on that time as an honour made all the greater by having worked alongside the likes of Tony Cliff, Duncan Hallas, Chris Harman and Paul Foot.

However after a year of shooting in the dark trying to put right a wrong, I feel I have been brought to a crossroads. The SWP’s failure to deal with the dispute arising from the complaint of the two women against the former national secretary, its failure to correct the errors that arose from that dispute, and the complete lack of honest accounting as to what went wrong, have all brought me to this point.

The leadership had so many opportunities to do the right thing, to make decisions that would save the SWP from a huge cost to its reputation and huge loss of membership. It remains a source of heartbreak and bewilderment for me that you failed so badly at every turn.

Leaderships can only be judged on what they have done, what results they have achieved. Whatever way we look at it, this leadership failed to deal with the issue that lies at the heart of the biggest crisis the SWP ever faced.

If the problem were exclusively one of failed leadership I might just still be considering my continued membership. Sadly it is clear that for a large section of the loyal membership, a short-sighted “defence of the party” has overridden every other consider
ation, including principles, and furthermore for them “defence of the party” has become synonymous with “defence of the leadership”.

The full horror of this was exemplified at conference by the standing ovation for Maxine’s
disputes committee report, followed by the complete lack of response to the revelations of dispute committee members C and J (neither of them faction members) that Maxine and the majority on the disputes committee had indeed blocked the second case from being heard.

Those who gave the standing ovation for Maxine – about a third of the conference – long ago decided that the two women were lying, either for factional reasons or because they were stooges of the state. They decided this way despite having no reliable knowledge of either case.

It is laughable to pretend this group of people has not broken fundamentally with our principles over women’s liberation.

In the light of this I feel I have no choice but to resign from the SWP. I do so with much sadness. I do so, however, in the company of many others alongside whom I have fought and who, like me, now feel they have to move on. They have been outstanding examples of how to fight for what is right in very difficult circumstances, and I stand by them with pride.

I know that in doing so I am saying goodbye to something that has been a huge part of almost my entire adult life. I am also saying goodbye to those members of the faction who will choose to stay inside the SWP. I would say to them: we fought an honourable fight together, we did the right thing, we defended principle rather than organisation. So never ever apologise for what you have done this past year. I know you think the SWP can still be changed. I think you are wrong, but wish you every success in your efforts.

I am further saying goodbye to many comrades who despite their horror at the behavior of the IDOOM “ultras” (the undeclared faction committed to defending the former national secretary at all costs), didn’t join our faction. A number of them have contacted me asking
me not to leave, to stay and to try to prevent the party being taken over by those representing this sectarian distortion of our traditions. I hate having to tell them I am going, but I fear they are fighting a losing fight. I will always regard them as comrades and hope to see them in the struggles of the future.

For myself, I remain a committed revolutionary, a champion of socialism from below, and a believer in revolutionary organisation. I am just sad that the vehicle I chose to travel on has hit the buffers, and angry that some of those still on it have betrayed everything it once stood for.

Pat Stack

http://www.scribd.com/doc/192705508/Pat-Stack-Resignation-letter