Why is the Turkish Left so nationalist?

[L.A.P.]

I don't have much context for this, but from what I've read, the Left in Turkey is entrenched with a nationalism that idolizes Attaturk and has an indifference, at the least, or opposition, at the worst, to the Kurdish struggle. Why is this?

[Fourth Internationalist]

It's likely due to both the state of the left today, and the fact that not all leftists are communist and internationalist (though, that requires a pretty board definition of what constitutes the "left").

[Tim Cornelis]

Turkey is a very nationalist society -- I don't think there's (m)any political culture(s) more nationalist than Turkey's -- I suppose this rubs off on the self-proclaimed "communists." @Aang. Such communists make frequent references to "the fatherland" and generally use such degenerate chauvinist language. Quite disgusting really. So the question applies to the far-left as well.

Now it's waiting for Devrim.

[Devrim]

Turkey is a very nationalist society -- I don't think there's (m)any political culture(s) more nationalist than Turkey's -- I suppose this rubs off on the self-proclaimed "communists." @Aang. Such communists make frequent references to "the fatherland" and generally use such degenerate chauvinist language. Quite disgusting really. So the question applies to the far-left as well.

Now it's waiting for Devrim.

I think that you are right. The prevelence of nationalism on the Turkish left is a reflection of the nationalism of society as a whole.

By the way, Turkey is the 'motherland', not 'fatherland'.

Devrim

[servusmoderni]

Turkey is a very nationalist society -- I don't think there's (m)any political culture(s) more nationalist than Turkey's -- I suppose this rubs off on the self-proclaimed "communists." @Aang. Such communists make frequent references to "the fatherland" and generally use such degenerate chauvinist language. Quite disgusting really. So the question applies to the far-left as well.

Now it's waiting for Devrim.

Oh c'mon, there's a difference between patriotism and straight up fascism.

[Remus Bleys]

Oh c'mon, there's a difference between patriotism and straight up fascism.no one mentioned fascism except you

[Fourth Internationalist]

@Aang. Such communists make frequent references to "the fatherland" and generally use such degenerate chauvinist language. Quite disgusting really. So the question applies to the far-left as well.

Well, then those "communists" could hardly be considered actual communists, much like Stalinists and other pseudo-communists.

[Tim Cornelis]

Indeed they are Stalinists, and indeed I do not consider them communists proper.

According to this Dutch newssite:

http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2668/Buitenland/article/detail/3388059/2013/02/04/Turkse-terreurgroep-eist-vertrek-Patriots.dhtml?utm_source=scherm1&utm_medium=button&utm_campaign=Cookiecheck

The DHKP/C (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_People's_Liberation_Party-Front) stated on their website 'the Voice of the People' against the Dutch military: "Get out with your bases, your missiles, and your Patriots [anti-missile installment], this fatherland is ours!"


Oh c'mon, there's a difference between patriotism and straight up fascism.

I didn't mention fascism, I said chauvinism. Language such as "this fatherland is ours" is chauvinistic, one can almost hear them use prefixes such as 'glorious' 'people's'. There is a difference between patriotism and fascism, and a substantial one (although fascists could be said to fall within the category of patriotism), but both are based on the bourgeois constructs of nation-states, and to uphold it is contrary to communism.

[Zukunftsmusik]

Oh c'mon, there's a difference between patriotism and straight up fascism.

Are you seriously saying that being a patriot is compatible with being a communist? (this is a rhetorical question, because I'm positive you are, and seeing your tendency and your other posts I'm not surprised)

[servusmoderni]

no one mentioned fascism except you

He said "chauvinist" and I think everyone would agree that it's truly a fascist attribute.

[Fourth Internationalist]

He said "chauvinist" and I think everyone would agree that it's truly a fascist attribute.

One can be chauvinist and not be a fascist.

[Remus Bleys]

He said "chauvinist" and I think everyone would agree that it's truly a fascist attribute.Then you think incorrectly I guess.
Also, are you a patriot?

[servusmoderni]

Are you seriously saying that being a patriot is compatible with being a communist?

Lenin expressed his disagreement with Chauvinism, but agreed to a socialist patriotism and the national-liberation of workers under imperial rule. (which is my case, It surely influenced my way of thinking.)

Mao said the following:

Can a Communist, who is an internationalist, at the same time be a patriot? We hold that he not only can be but also must be.

Stalin: Flawed policy of Russian nationalism. (one of his mistakes)

There's a difference between Bourgeois Nationalism and Proletarian Patriotism.

You've got some serious reading to do.

EDIT: I know most of these communists are Marxist-Leninist, but on the other hand, they're the only ones of kind of succeeded in creating a state that works for the people.

[Remus Bleys]

Marx disagreed with Nationalism, but agreed with a concept of borders to protect the working people.Source.


I know the theory is flawed, but hey activism.
fixed

[servusmoderni]

Source.

I no longer have it, I think I mistook it for Stalin or something. (His fault again I guess)

I'll keep looking for it though, just to be sure.

I'll edit it out for now.

[Zukunftsmusik]

What is proletarian patriotism? Upholding nationalist values in the name of a "worker's state"?

[Fourth Internationalist]

What is proletarian patriotism? Upholding nationalist values in the name of a "worker's state"?

Loyalty to a workers' state, I presume. If that is it, it most certainly is not the worst thing in the world so long as it isn't blindly based on any sort of nationality rather than on working class solidarity.

[Tim Cornelis]

Proletarian patriotism is double speak for red-bourgeois nationalism.

[Zukunftsmusik]

Loyalty to a workers' state, I presume. If that is it, it most certainly is not the worst thing in the world so long as it isn't blindly based on any sort of nationality rather than on working class solidarity.

Most, if not all, the "worker's states" have been confined to national borders and have resulted in nationalism in one way or another.


Also note that servusmoderni just got restricted for this post (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2697432&postcount=3).

[Fourth Internationalist]

Most, if not all, the "worker's states" have been confined to national borders and have resulted in nationalism in one way or another.


I agree. I'd argue that it wasn't proletarian patriotism as I defined it.

[DDR]

Pluri-national countries where there's one big nation oppresing the other/s tend to create this chauvinistic way of thinking. The left in the UK and Spain is a really good example of this.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Proletarian patriotism is double speak for red-bourgeois nationalism.

In the Stalinist states, it was and still is. Though, the concept itself can be how I defined it as, and therefore can be not synonymous with bourgeois nationalism.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Patriotism in leftist movements has often been a way for privileged classes to piggyback on revolutionary demands by changing the nature of the discussion to one between imperialists/nationalists from capitalists/workers. It makes the businessmen and economic elites of that society a part of the revolutionary movement because they share that national identity. It also allows the continuation of the political and social alienation of workers between states.