Alexis Tsipras: As Greek, I’m proud to lead Europe’s Left

[Die Neue Zeit]

http://www.euractiv.com/eu-elections-2014/alexis-tsipras-greek-proud-lead-interview-531929


Thus, the candidacy of the European Left aims at being the answer to the policy of permanent austerity; a policy which sets off economic insecurity in tandem with the risk of unemployment, social exclusion, and poverty.


The message that the European Left aspires to send with my candidacy is that the strategy of austerity can be defeated; that the alternative political plan of the Left to refound Europe and give prominence to real democracy, in contrast to the current neoliberal architecture of the European Union, could pave the way for the unity of peoples and workers and thereby block the emergence of nationalism, chauvinism and the extreme right.


We juxtapose the solidarity of the young, the working people, the pensioners and the unemployed to the solidarity of the capital that the current neoliberal management of the crisis materializes.


SYRIZA has proved in Greece that the Left can be a political force which can govern and not only a protest movement.; a political force that has the knowledge, the will and the capability to change α citizen’s everyday life. We don’t want to assume the role of outraged onlookers – we want, instead, to be decisive protagonists.

Though here's a slip-up:


Ideological, since, in its founding declaration, SYRIZA has set Europe as the terrain of political and class struggle.

[F9]

bullshit words, from bullshit people who their one and only true aspiration is to get in charge...tired of listening all of this, and even more important people feeling like they are true leftists and revolutionaries and they support him!0 relevant leftist backround, 0 relevant leftist actions, just yet another reformist if not worse

[tuwix]

He's not my leader although I'm living in Europe and in the EU.

[Queen Mab]

Puke

[TheEmancipator]

We all know what will happen in this tread : Tsipras will get a torrent of abuse on here, because people think bashing the modern left is the equivalent of holding a Marxist line. They will get loads of rep and they'll feel good about themselves.

Meanwhile a Greek loses his pension or can't afford to pay for medecine. I'm sure he all feels our solidarity with him as we like the internet posts above.

But yeah, bashing your own kind on a marxist forum is the priority.

And before you start, this has nothing to do with reformism. It has to do with real life priorities, and recredibilising the left.

The people above are the reason why right-wing parties like ND are voted in.

[Delenda Carthago]

There is no such thing as "Left". There is working class and its power, and bourgeois class and its power. Which side do you think Tsipras is standing on?

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[TheEmancipator]

There is no such thing as "Left". There is working class and its power, and bourgeois class and its power. Which side do you think Tsipras is standing on?

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He is a member of the middle class. Most of whom are working class.

Tspiras doesn't have the power to overthrow a bourgeois system though and he knows that full well.

Instead of clicking on the 'thank member for this post about how I hate radical left party X' on revelft he actually gets off his arse and campaigns for workers' rights.

You can disagree with his politics, but I don't see why he should be vilified.

[Delenda Carthago]

He is a member of the middle class. Most of whom are working class.

Tspiras doesn't have the power to overthrow a bourgeois system though and he knows that full well.

Instead of clicking on the 'thank member for this post about how I hate radical left party X' on revelft he actually gets off his arse and campaigns for workers' rights.

You can disagree with his politics, but I don't see why he should be vilified.
Yes, he should. Because he creates the illusion on people that a change for the better can come though elections. That capitalism can be better. That politics are not a product of economy, but a volontaristic matter of good will.

And while that is happening, greeks are losing political time. He is just as an enemy as every other prime minister in Greece's history.

[Per Levy]

We all know what will happen in this tread : Tsipras will get a torrent of abuse on here, because people think bashing the modern left is the equivalent of holding a Marxist line. They will get loads of rep and they'll feel good about themselves.

what has this "modern left" to do with marxism? this "modern left" is at best the left-wing of capital, but knowing syriza they arnt even left-wing.


Meanwhile a Greek loses his pension or can't afford to pay for medecine. I'm sure he all feels our solidarity with him as we like the internet posts above.

im sure the greek workers feel our "solidarity" if we praise tsipras and syriza, it hungers better then knowing of that "solidarity". it says a lot that the only way you defend syriza is with petty moralism.


But yeah, bashing your own kind on a marxist forum is the priority.

i didnt know that social-dems are of "my kind". and criticizing bourgeois partys isnt a bad thing imo.


And before you start, this has nothing to do with reformism. It has to do with real life priorities, and recredibilising the left.

fuck the left, the lefts only purpose is to canalize the anger, frustration and the dissent into bourgeois politics and illusions that a bourgois parliament can "fix" what is wrong with capitalism.


The people above are the reason why right-wing parties like ND are voted in.

so Fuserg9, tuwix and Auguste Vaillant are the reason why GD sits in the greek parliament, it has nothing to do with bourgeois politics that blame the crisis on immigrants, it has nothing to do with austerity but it has all to do with 3 posters on revleft? good to know.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I certainly appreciate his opposition to the worst excesses of capitalism, and his election in Greece would certainly make a significant material difference to the Greek people in the short-term, but looking to the long-term, he doesn't have a revolutionary solution to capitalism and is thus bound to fail.

A band-aid to cover up the rivers of capital's blood, if you will.

[TheEmancipator]

I certainly appreciate his opposition to the worst excesses of capitalism, and his election in Greece would certainly make a significant material difference to the Greek people in the short-term, but looking to the long-term, he doesn't have a revolutionary solution to capitalism and is thus bound to fail.

A band-aid to cover up the rivers of capital's blood, if you will.

Boss, I see no solution to the problem, so I might as well vote for radical left parties who will play an oppositionary, obstructivist force and hopefully empower a working class to its full potential inside a capitalist system instead.

If somebody had proposed a long term solution he'd be the leader of Europe's left right now, not Tsipras. These forums prove there are many intelligent people with great political ideals and beliefs yet cannot possibly answer the questions that the neo-liberal system is asking of them for the moment. I'm sorry to say but I'd feel more comfortable to have people like Tsipras in power than people like you, even though I prefer your politics over his. Simply because any radical action within a country would be futile.

I just find voting for people who will guarentee the basic needs of hard-working people in Greece ( while suggesting they'll take the bankers who destroyed the country to the criminal courts) is not someting that should be as villified as it is here.

[Thirsty Crow]

But yeah, bashing your own kind on a marxist forum is the priority.

Oh that's a cute assumption. Bashing my own kind - and what kind would that be? The decisive reformists that want to prove they can govern a society based on capital? That's rather strange since last time I checked this board was a meeting place for the revolutionary left.
And yeah, this has got everything to do with reformism and the criticism it needs to be subjected to by pro-revolutionaries.

[Geiseric]

Lol I'm not even going to argue on this thread. You guys need to re examine reality. Supporting Tsipras isn't even a question of lesser evil, it's about showing socialist politics are a serious thing and not some left communist pipe dream.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Boss, I see no solution to the problem, so I might as well vote for radical left parties who will play an oppositionary, obstructivist force and hopefully empower a working class to its full potential inside a capitalist system instead.

You don't have to see a solution, you're not god. Nobody is. You just have to have the belief that the current system needs to be trashed, and we can work from there.


If somebody had proposed a long term solution he'd be the leader of Europe's left right now, not Tsipras.

No he/she wouldn't. Everyone has a solution. The point is that those who run around proposing such solution are windbags.

They start from the self-important point of view that if only they have the correct program, the working class will all of a sudden flock to their party, or movement, or whatever.


I'm sorry to say but I'd feel more comfortable to have people like Tsipras in power than people like you, even though I prefer your politics over his.

Good. I'd rather nobody was in power.


Simply because any radical action within a country would be futile.

Go and vote social democrat then. Let them stab you in the back.


I just find voting for people who will guarentee the basic needs of hard-working people in Greece ( while suggesting they'll take the bankers who destroyed the country to the criminal courts) is not someting that should be as villified as it is here.

I don't think I ever villified it. The point is that voting for people like Tsipras only works if you understand that his type of politics is limited to petty reforms. I think that if you vote for him expecting anything grander than that you're naive at best, and if you vote for him expecting long-term, meaningful change then you're equally foolish.

As I said above, he is short-term, reformist band-aid, not a solution to capitalism.

[Leo]

Lol I'm not even going to argue on this thread. You guys need to re examine reality. Supporting Tsipras isn't even a question of lesser evil, it's about showing socialist politics are a serious thing and not some left communist pipe dream.

I have to say that I'm quite happy to see such a shamelessly open reformist openly state that the alternative to his politics is ours.

[DOOM]

We all know what will happen in this tread : Tsipras will get a torrent of abuse on here, because people think bashing the modern left is the equivalent of holding a Marxist line. They will get loads of rep and they'll feel good about themselves.

Meanwhile a Greek loses his pension or can't afford to pay for medecine. I'm sure he all feels our solidarity with him as we like the internet posts above.

But yeah, bashing your own kind on a marxist forum is the priority.

And before you start, this has nothing to do with reformism. It has to do with real life priorities, and recredibilising the left.

The people above are the reason why right-wing parties like ND are voted in.

And supporting him will REALLY change anything in Greece?
I don't think so. The only solution for Greece is a revolution.

[Geiseric]

I have to say that I'm quite happy to see such a shamelessly open reformist openly state that the alternative to his politics is ours.

You define reformist as anything that falls short of your ideal, which only serves to isolate yourself. This is also happening with KKE, as they find they have less and less of an audience seeing as the Greek mass movement is organizing itself, without any substitutionists to stop them.

[Thirsty Crow]

You define reformist as anything that falls short of your ideal, which only serves to isolate yourself. This is also happening with KKE, as they find they have less and less of an audience seeing as the Greek mass movement is organizing itself, without any substitutionists to stop them.
SYRIZA being part of that movement?

[Remus Bleys]

SYRIZA being part of that movement?
well remember, apparently the petty-bourgeois can be progressive

[Remus Bleys]

You define reformist as anything that falls short of your ideal, which only serves to isolate yourself. This is also happening with KKE, as they find they have less and less of an audience seeing as the Greek mass movement is organizing itself, without any substitutionists to stop them.
Wait, so are you saying SYRIZA isn't reformist?
What do you mean "without any substitutionists to stop them."
And so you are saying communists should collaborate with SYRIZA?
I mean its not like a situation in germany in between social democrats and communists occurred...

[Geiseric]

well remember, apparently the petty-bourgeois can be progressive

If that's the attitude you're going to have then good luck operating in real life politics. Yes he might of had petit bourgeois parents. Does he represent the views of international capital? As yourself this, did or did not SYRIZA rise out of the mass anti austerity movement which has been going on for years? Are its members engaged in mobilizing the working class for feasable political and economic goals? Are most of its members working class? The answer is yes to all of these.

Did KKE rise out of the above? They do have mostly working class membersship. However does their leadership represent the views of the working class? Not really, they blocked the parliament building from the tens of thousands of demonstrators whom were going to break up and occupy the building during a critical vote, the result of which rewarded KKE with several seats in parliament. SYRIZA is the amalgamatation of the increased class consciousness in Greece, and there are MANY communists working with and inside of it. Of course they're going to spout the traditional third period nonsense which failed in Germany. They're idiots for bringing up the history of the SPD and KPD because they themselves don't even know the actual history of how the KPD bureaucracy royally fucked up, like the KKE has done, for a long time.

[Remus Bleys]

Great.
They have left propaganda and they are popular so let's support them.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

So the choice is between reformist social democrats who collaborate with ultra-nationalists, and a Communist party which has re-affirmed the need for armed revolution, refused a coalition with social democrats, but was mean to anarchists once?

Neutrality is of course understandable, but anyone who chooses the social-democrats is objectively siding with counter-revolution and can not possibly be a Communist.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Tsipras is essentially a social democrat and SYRIZA is inadequate to what is needed but I would still, very critically, support Tsipras and his party.He may be the Greek Kerensky, well I would much rather have Kerensky than say, Sergei Witte.There are revolutionaries in and around Syriza.

Syriza could take measures to alleviate the horrific suffering of the Greek people.Beyond that they would, however inadequately, represent a resistance to austerity, which no other party in Greece represents.This would in turn lead to a revolutionary dynamic.Although Syriza isn't revolutionary, its coming to power I feel would create a revolutionary situation.

[Remus Bleys]

I for one don't understand how SYRIZA could possibly create a revolutionary situation.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Syriza by itself won't create a revolutionary situation. The flow of events-unendurable austerity forced on Greece by German bankers and imperialists, the widespread view that the working class is being forced to bailout the criminal mistakes of finance capital, and then the election of a party which, whoever wafffling and half heatedly, has as its platform a semi-repudiation of the debt

.Syriza will either be forced to back down, after which they will be seen as just another bourgeoise party, or they will be forced from mass pressure from below to allow their more radical elements to come forward.

Ats not about Syria, which sucks, its about the dynamic which would ensue when even a semi-communist party is elected. Tsipras isn't Lenin but he;s not Hollande either.

[Remus Bleys]

So then why support SYRIZA at all? Even a little, or "lesser of two evils"?

I am fucking dissapointed. Communists are not for better lives under capitalism they are for communism.

i dont want to get yelled at for tendency/org baiting, but...

[Remus Bleys]

He is a member of the middle class. Most of whom are working class.


:confused:

what


Tspiras doesn't have the power to overthrow a bourgeois system though and he knows that full well.
its not a lack of power fool

Instead of clicking on the 'thank member for this post about how I hate radical left party X' on revelft he actually gets off his arse and campaigns for workers' rights.
and worship tito instead



You can disagree with his politics, but I don't see why he should be vilified.
because fuck the bourgeois

Boss, I see no solution to the problem, so I might as well vote for radical left parties who will play an oppositionary, obstructivist force and hopefully empower a working class to its full potential inside a capitalist system instead.
yeah boss, an organized working class fighting for what little it can. How could you even think that?

If somebody had proposed a long term solution he'd be the leader of Europe's left right now, not Tsipras. These forums prove there are many intelligent people with great political ideals and beliefs yet cannot possibly answer the questions that the neo-liberal system is asking of them for the moment. I'm sorry to say but I'd feel more comfortable to have people like Tsipras in power than people like you, even though I prefer your politics over his. Simply because any radical action within a country would be futile.
what

I just find voting for people who will guarentee the basic needs of hard-working people in Greece ( while suggesting they'll take the bankers who destroyed the country to the criminal courts) is not someting that should be as villified as it is here. dont you ultraleftists get it! He just wants capitalism to be nicer!

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

but was mean to anarchists once?


so selling out fellow workers to the police now just amounts to this.

The Communists were in a coalition with the capitalist parties 20 years ago, too. They are fucking cocksuckers.

[Remus Bleys]

cocksuckers.
Wow there.
Honestly surprised at this. Aren't you former mod even?

[Czy]

They are fucking cocksuckers.

Why is 'sucking cock' an insult? Homophobe.

_

[Yuppie Grinder]

Wow there.
Honestly surprised at this. Aren't you former mod even?

Yea, that term is shitty, but it's part of every day language. I'm sure he wasn't even thinking when he used it. Give him a break. When he sees this he'll probably edit his post and apologize.

[Thirsty Crow]

If that's the attitude you're going to have then good luck operating in real life politics. Yes he might of had petit bourgeois parents. Does he represent the views of international capital? As yourself this, did or did not SYRIZA rise out of the mass anti austerity movement which has been going on for years? Are its members engaged in mobilizing the working class for feasable political and economic goals? Are most of its members working class? The answer is yes to all of these.

You didn't answer the question exactly.
The point here is under which conditions reformism needs to be subjected to a rigorous criticism from the revolutionary perspective - and indeed, as your attitude shows clearly, does it need to be subjected to this at all. Now, you might wish to frame this issue in terms of a naive and not really elaborated criticism coming from the revolutionary position - making one having a hard time "operating in real life politics" (a stinking turd of a phrase, pardon my language, but yeah okay), but that's not at all what is at stake here. What is at stake is the apparent tailing of openly reformist forces with the best of hopes that this time it will all work out (why I think you're actually doing this, maybe unwittingly advocating utter tailing, is the fact that you're trying to produce a vapid dichotomy between "our ideals" which are somehow completely vacuous and thus we can't see reformism for what it is; while, actually it is you who can't draw out the political conclusions from a clear assessment of reformism which is right here under your nose).

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Yea, that term is shitty, but it's part of every day language. I'm sure he wasn't even thinking when he used it. Give him a break. When he sees this he'll probably edit his post and apologize.

So I guess I can call you a faggot then, because it's a 'part of everyday language'? I'm sure most people aren't thinking when they call people faggots. Most people probably didn't think twice about calling people kaffirs a few decades ago either. After all, they didn't mean it in a bad way - just as a derogatory term targeting a certain group as an insult, so how could it be insulting? It's obviously alright if the perpetrator thinks it's okay. I mean, who cares about all the people who it is directly and unfairly insulting towards, right?

This argumentum ad populum is making my head spin.

[Alexios]

So the choice is between reformist social democrats who collaborate with ultra-nationalists, and a Communist party which has re-affirmed the need for armed revolution, refused a coalition with social democrats, but was mean to anarchists once?

Yeah they'd just turn the country into a miserable police state identical to Golden Dawn in almost every way but who cares if they have Communist in their name, right?

[Yuppie Grinder]

So I guess I can call you a faggot then, because it's a 'part of everyday language'? I'm sure most people aren't thinking when they call people faggots. Most people probably didn't think twice about calling people kaffirs a few decades ago either. After all, they didn't mean it in a bad way - just as a derogatory term targeting a certain group as an insult, so how could it be insulting? It's obviously alright if the perpetrator thinks it's okay. I mean, who cares about all the people who it is directly and unfairly insulting towards, right?

This argumentum ad populum is making my head spin.

I don't think you really get what I mean. I'm not arguing that cocksucker is an okay word. Attacking the guy won't do anything constructive, pointing out what's wrong with the word cocksucker will. He's a good dude, and reasonable. Not a homophobe.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

so selling out fellow workers to the police now just amounts to this.

The Communists were in a coalition with the capitalist parties 20 years ago, too. They are fucking cocksuckers.

1.I never explicitly endorsed the KKE in this post so this is a bit of an over reaction. I just think anyone who prefers Syriza to them has no right to call themselves a Communist

2. the KKE has denounced this aspect of their past. The recent left turn of the KKE isn't because of "Ultra sectarian Stalinist bureaucracy" that rules the party, but because the KKE functions with a healthy amount of internal democracy, although I won't describe it in detail a recent article pointed out that the primary reason that the KKE didn't enter on a coalition with the social democrats is because the members of the party themselves wanted nothing to do with managing a capitalist government even if that meant losing seats:


the KKE could certainly foretell its bad result (if not the actual numbers, then their gist), chiefly because of its strong organizational power and its tendency to hold frequent internal polls. Speaking in Chalkida approximately a week before the second election of 17 June, KKE General Secretary, Aleka Papariga said: “Ten days before the election of 6 May, polls showed that we had double digit percentages and we lost votes when we revealed what a government of the left would mean, we expected the loss, think, however, of the cost if we had said ‘yes’ … a temporary cost can be reverted when the justice of its position is proven, a durable political mistake, however, cannot be corrected easily and you pay for it for years” (To Vima, 11 June 2012). There seems to have been wide acknowledgement of the above described argument inside the KKE. With one exemption, in the form of a recently constructed blog publishing purportedly internal criticism of the party and its leadership, the KKE seems to have been cohesive and united in its last two electoral campaigns.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/greeceatlse/2012/09/02/understanding-the-greek-communist-party/



So when they say they've corrected their errors, I have a greater inclination to believe them than anything the SYRIZA goons have to say. At least unlike the SYRIZA, the KKE doesn't cooperate with the fash.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/04/04/srza-a04.html

But more importantly, they are Communists, another thing that they have going for them unlike the SYRIZA which would sell out the working class as soon as it gets a majority in parliament.

To be honest I'm on the fence here, traditionally I'm an abstentationist and generally don't endorse official communist parties. But the KKE is pretty close to the real deal, I mean, refusing power to abstain from governing the capitalist state is pretty principled. I don't buy these arguments that just because they did a bad thing once means that they have suddenly soiled their virginity so to speak. And I don't buy the signalfire argument that we should endorse the anarchist just because they blow stuff up occasionally and that endorsing them would be r-r-revolutionary. There just really seems to be no viable revolutionary alternative. But the point I am trying to make here is that as always, anyone who endorses social democrats over any form of Communist is a social democrat, regardless of their subjective opinions and mental gymnastics.

[TheEmancipator]

:confused:

what


its not a lack of power fool

and worship tito instead


because fuck the bourgeois

yeah boss, an organized working class fighting for what little it can. How could you even think that?
what
dont you ultraleftists get it! He just wants capitalism to be nicer!

If this was some kind of demonstration of idiocy, immaturity, stating the obvious, ad hominem attacks, strawman or any other concepts demonstrating the absurdity of the internet, I really like your post.

Otherwise, this is quite possibly the worst post I've seen on Revleft in a long time.

Just because I disagree with your point, doesn't mean you have to act like a massive bellend to prove yours.

[Per Levy]

Otherwise, this is quite possibly the worst post I've seen on Revleft in a long time.

in a long time? you arnt much on revleft then, there are so many bad posts on here lately.


If this was some kind of demonstration of idiocy, immaturity, stating the obvious, ad hominem attacks, strawman or any other concepts demonstrating the absurdity of the internet, I really like your post.

well there are several posts that criticize your positions way better then remus, yet you dont answer those posts and take the easy way out with remus. thats kinda weak.

[TheEmancipator]

well there are several posts that criticize your positions way better then remus, yet you dont answer those posts and take the easy way out with remus. thats kinda weak.

Really? Point them out.

[Per Levy]

Really? Point them out.

just go to the first page of this thread and, i assume you can read, read through the responses to geiserics and your posts there are several of those you didnt bother answering.

[TheEmancipator]

just go to the first page of this thread and, i assume you can read, read through the responses to geiserics and your posts there are several of those you didnt bother answering.

I did answer many of them, although some were just the usual religious lines I'd expect to hear from some autmaton.

I particularly decided to answer Boss' points because he took a sensible stance towards the issue. That's all I wanted. I don't care about the fact you hate Tsipras and his views. But most of the criticism, as usual, has the words 'reformist, petit bourgeois, blah blah' and that's about it in terms of any substantial argument.

Tiring. I want some new content to troll the Stalinists.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

sorry for using that language, was pretty thoughtless.

[Thirsty Crow]

I
I particularly decided to answer Boss' points because he took a sensible stance towards the issue. That's all I wanted. I don't care about the fact you hate Tsipras and his views. But most of the criticism, as usual, has the words 'reformist, petit bourgeois, blah blah' and that's about it in terms of any substantial argument.

Of course, any substantial argument could run along the lines of either clarifying that the politics of SYRIZA represents nothing more than reformism or that the proposed measures are in themselves not practical and are more than likely to be halted in their entirety. The latter approach borders on crystal ball gazing, but yeah sure some compelling arguments can be brought forward, while the former is indispensable for any person claiming class politics - or in other words, social revolution.

This is infinitely more nuanced and subtle than your "hate Tsipras, hate his politics" straw man.

[Geiseric]

You understand that their demands are those which have rose out of the working class itself right? The wriTing class which is now voting for them en masse?

[Thirsty Crow]

You understand that their demands are those which have rose out of the working class itself right? The wriTing class which is now voting for them en masse?
No, I do not understand that actually - can you show that these demands are those which first arose in the broad movement of the working class, apart from political and/or union leadership mediation?

But this is a side issue as yet again you're actually evading the question with this rhetorically loaded statement - as if, under the condition of that being true, demands arising from the workers movement refutes the assessment of reformism. And to be perfectly clear, I'm not disputing what you say here, it is just that it is far from clear what relevance does it hold for very specific questions others and myself are posing here.

[Die Neue Zeit]

While every reply made so far has been on the situation in Greece specifically, nothing has been said about the European elections and symbolic workers unity at the EU level.

If Left Unity wishes not to become another pariah left-nationalist British organization, it should be the affiliate of the GUE-NGL in the UK.

The Irish left should do joint work with the current GUE-NGL affiliate in Ireland, Sinn Fein (a party with quite a party tax), for EU-level campaigns.

If the Besancenot and the NPA lot in France wish to make a political comeback, it had better do some joint work with the Left Front for EU-level campaigns.

[TheEmancipator]

If the Besancenot and the NPA lot in France wish to make a political comeback, it had better do some joint work with the Left Front for EU-level campaigns.

Besancot and the now defunct NPA won't join the Left Front for the same reason the posters on here refuse to give Tsipras an ounce of credit : they are too stuck looking through the ideological rose-tinted glasses calling other legitimate opponents fascists, reformists, petit bourgeois, to care about a broad European workers movement.

They get a lot of rep on revleft though!

I honestly thought I was an armchair revolutionary when I came here but when you listen to the endless bullshit about outdated theories and little details of Cold War history, and realise how some take this more seriously than providing Greek workers with basic food and health, you start to feel better about yourself...

[Per Levy]

While every reply made so far has been on the situation in Greece specifically, nothing has been said about the European elections and symbolic workers unity at the EU level.

why should anything be said about the european elections? they are useless and the majority of peope dont care about them, because all that they do is sending some politicians into a impotent parliament where they get very well paid.

"symbolic workers unity" what is this supposed to be? another one of your madeup phrases?


If Left Unity wishes not to become another pariah left-nationalist British organization, it should be the affiliate of the GUE-NGL in the UK.

yeah, get in touch with a social democratic organization. that will help.


Besancot and the now defunct NPA won't join the Left Front for the same reason the posters on here refuse to give Tsipras an ounce of credit : they are too stuck looking through the ideological rose-tinted glasses calling other legitimate opponents fascists, reformists, petit bourgeois, to care about a broad European workers movement.

you're the one talking, blaming posters on revleft for golden dawns victorys, you dont engage in any discussion at all and only attack made up strawmen. but if you feel better about yourself its ok i guess.


They get a lot of rep on revleft though!

no one gives a damn about rep on revleft.


I honestly thought I was an armchair revolutionary when I came here but when you listen to the endless bullshit about outdated theories and little details of Cold War history, and realise how some take this more seriously than providing Greek workers with basic food and health, you start to feel better about yourself...

lets be honest you could care less about greek workers, they are just a tool to attack posters on here in an appeal to some kind of moralistic duty to vote for reformists. not to mention that you are worse than any armchair revolutionary, you are a armchair reformists and a smug one at that. have fun feeling better about yourself.

[consuming negativity]

So then why support SYRIZA at all? Even a little, or "lesser of two evils"?

I am fucking dissapointed. Communists are not for better lives under capitalism they are for communism.

i dont want to get yelled at for tendency/org baiting, but...

Hold on now. I don't mean to take a side in this silly debate, but I think this might be the crux of the confusion going on here.

Just because our end-goal cannot be reached through reforming capitalism doesn't mean that no short-term gains can be accomplished at all without a violent uprising. My goal is the betterment of life. If a shitty minimum wage law or something can be enacted and - right now - make life a little bit better for some people, then I am all for that change.

I think it is easy to sit back and criticize people as "reformists" on the internet, but at the end of the day, ideology doesn't matter worth a fuck without results. Dead workers don't revolt, and people scraping by on two jobs to feed their families don't go march in the streets.

[Die Neue Zeit]

why should anything be said about the european elections? they are useless and the majority of peope dont care about them, because all that they do is sending some politicians into a impotent parliament where they get very well paid.

"symbolic workers unity" what is this supposed to be? another one of your madeup phrases?

That's the CPGB's, and they contrast this with nationalist sentiment within the British left, the most recent of which was No2EU.

[Remus Bleys]

Hold on now. I don't mean to take a side in this silly debate, but I think this might be the crux of the confusion going on here.

Just because our end-goal cannot be reached through reforming capitalism doesn't mean that no short-term gains can be accomplished at all without a violent uprising. My goal is the betterment of life. If a shitty minimum wage law or something can be enacted and - right now - make life a little bit better for some people, then I am all for that change.

I think it is easy to sit back and criticize people as "reformists" on the internet, but at the end of the day, ideology doesn't matter worth a fuck without results. Dead workers don't revolt, and people scraping by on two jobs to feed their families don't go march in the streets.
the movement of the working class to make a better lives for themselves is not what is mean by "reformist." The debate is not centered on demands made by the workers or not, it is demands made by the workers or demands made by the petite-bourgeois.
I personally think that Communist should support the working class and working class struggles, not the reactionary petty-bourgeois. But what do i know, Im just, you know, a communist.

[TheEmancipator]

the movement of the working class to make a better lives for themselves is not what is mean by "reformist." The debate is not centered on demands made by the workers or not, it is demands made by the workers or demands made by the petite-bourgeois.
I personally think that Communist should support the working class and working class struggles, not the reactionary petty-bourgeois. But what do i know, Im just, you know, a communist.

In what world is Tsipras serving the interest of the petite bourgeoisie?

[Tim Cornelis]

the movement of the working class to make a better lives for themselves is not what is mean by "reformist." The debate is not centered on demands made by the workers or not, it is demands made by the workers or demands made by the petite-bourgeois.
I personally think that Communist should support the working class and working class struggles, not the reactionary petty-bourgeois. But what do i know, Im just, you know, a communist.

On what basis is the class character of the reforms proposed "petty bourgeois" and how would these differ from reforms as demanded by the working class?

[Remus Bleys]

On what basis is the class character of the reforms proposed "petty bourgeois" and how would these differ from reforms as demanded by the working class?
Well, for one, Syriza seems to only tackle on "big business" and focus on getting them, the bad guys, to give back to society. Whereas a working class demand would not give "little business" that edge, they would demand all businesses, big or small, foreign or national, to be pursued and endangered.

[Geiseric]

Well, for one, Syriza seems to only tackle on "big business" and focus on getting them, the bad guys, to give back to society. Whereas a working class demand would not give "little business" that edge, they would demand all businesses, big or small, foreign or national, to be pursued and endangered.

You have a false dichotomy built up, none of what Syriza is proposing is possible under capitalism, making it not reformist at all. Have you even read their program? How are those things petit bourgeois reformist? Their demands impact the entire economy in ways that are against the interests of the European financiers.

[Die Neue Zeit]

^^^ Geiseric, does SYRIZA propose worker coops?


Well, for one, Syriza seems to only tackle on "big business" and focus on getting them, the bad guys, to give back to society. Whereas a working class demand would not give "little business" that edge, they would demand all businesses, big or small, foreign or national, to be pursued and endangered.

That's a very good point, but a working-class demand at the radical reform level could tackle the "little business" problem by making an explicit public policy preference for workers coops, with state aid at least for start-up. The form of these workers coops needs to be counterposed to sole proprietorships, partnerships, and "privately-held" corporations (those not publicly traded), both small and medium-sized. I don't see left-coms being political enough to address these forms, though.

[Tim Cornelis]

You have a false dichotomy built up, none of what Syriza is proposing is possible under capitalism, making it not reformist at all. Have you even read their program? How are those things petit bourgeois reformist? Their demands impact the entire economy in ways that are against the interests of the European financiers.

What about SYRIZAs programme and demands is not compatible with capitalism? Each and every demand of the 40 point programme is compatible with capitalism and most have existed at some point, in the 1960s and 1970s in Western Europe. As for sparing comments about 'workers' control' and 'direct democracy', both are compatible with capitalism. Moreover, I'm not convinced that these remarks are meaningful. Green parties the world over have been formally committed to grassroots democracy, but the vast majority of green parties do not even pay lip service to this pillar of green politics.
The road SYRIZA walks is the same as 'old school social-democracy' and I anticipate they end up the same, moving gradually to the right.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

^^^ Geiseric, does SYRIZA propose worker coops?



That's a very good point, but a working-class demand at the radical reform level could tackle the "little business" problem by making an explicit public policy preference for workers coops, with state aid at least for start-up. The form of these workers coops needs to be counterposed to sole proprietorships, partnerships, and "privately-held" corporations (those not publicly traded), both small and medium-sized. I don't see left-coms being political enough to address these forms, though.

So reformism is political, anything to the left of 'radical reformism' (another of your made up phrases to mean social democracy, I take it) is what, then?

[Geiseric]

You know what else existed in the 60s? A revolutionary students and workers movement. Its pain and simple, SYRIZAs program is not capable of existing with austerity. If you want to play third period feel free to continue doing so from home. Otherwise participate and push forward when the working class mobilizes which will happen with or without you. Don't complain when real reformists take charge when SYRIZA is isolated by an apathetic European ultraleft, then youll wish you supported Tsipras and the class conscious parts of the Greek working class.

[Tim Cornelis]

You know what else existed in the 60s? A revolutionary students and workers movement.

You know what also existed in the 60s? Colonialism, therefore SYRIZAs programme will lead to colonialism because correlation is causation apparently. How will SYRIZAs programme aid in the creation of a revolutionary student and workers' movement? Though I would say that Greece's social movements are comparable in scale and scope as the 1960s social movements in many Western countries.


Its pain and simple, SYRIZAs program is not capable of existing with austerity.

Obviously, because it's an anti-austerity programme. Is it an anticapitalist programme though? No it's not, unlike what you claimed.


If you want to play third period feel free to continue doing so from home. Otherwise participate and push forward when the working class mobilizes which will happen with or without you. Don't complain when real reformists take charge when SYRIZA is isolated by an apathetic European ultraleft, then youll wish you supported Tsipras and the class conscious parts of the Greek working class.

So many assumptions... First, I simply asked which programmatic demands by SYRIZA were incompatible with capitalism. You respond by something unrelated, namely that the programme will aid the mobilisation of the working class--that's not being discussed. I'm for reforms if they aid in the mobilisation of the working class, but I don't believe these reforms to be incompatible with capitalism.
Second, I'm not an ultralefist.
Third, Third Period? How does that even make sense?

[Geiseric]

It calls for basically a publicly owned economy which is obviously incomparable with a privately owned one I.e. a capitalist one. Capitalist economies can't be publicly owned, if we take the definitions of those terms literally.

[Tim Cornelis]

It calls for basically a publicly owned economy which is obviously incomparable with a privately owned one I.e. a capitalist one. Capitalist economies can't be publicly owned, if we take the definitions of those terms literally.

Do you believe the military to be socialist?
It's unfortunate that you still uphold this belief, you've professed often on this forum, that you think public ownership has anything to do with socialism. If the relations of production are not changed, if a productive establishment continues to operate as independent commodity producer, it doesn't matter what judicial expressions they formally are.

If labour is separated from the objective conditions of their labour, as with state ownership, it's capitalist. Even an enterprise under workers' control is capitalistic if it continues to operate as (an independent) commodity producer.

As far as I know, SYRIZA calls for public ownership in key sectors which were nationalised in much of Europe the 1970s as well, telecommunications, banking, public transportation, etc. They've only made a comment about workers' control here and there, nothing systematic.

http://www.marxisthumanistinitiative.org/alternatives-to-capital/video-the-incoherence-of-transitional-society.html

Let me first address the issue of state ownership and control.

Of course, Marx called for the abolition of private property. But what makes property private, in his view, is not individual ownership, but the separation of the direct producers, workers, from the property they produce. Thus, in the German Ideology, he and Frederick Engels noted that “ancient communal and State ownership … is still accompanied by slavery,” and they referred to the communal ownership of slaves as “communal private property” (emphasis added).

In volume 2 of Capital, Marx wrote, “The social capital is equal to the sum of the individual capitals (including … state capital, in so far as governments employ productive wage-labour in mines, railways, etc. and function as industrial capitalists.” Similarly, in his notes on Adolph Wagner’s critique of Capital, Marx wrote that “[w]here the state itself is a capitalist producer, as in the exploitation of mines, forests, etc., its product is a ‘commodity’ and hence possesses the specific character of every other commodity.”

Most importantly, in volume 1 of Capital, he implicitly addressed the issue of what would happen if the state’s role as capitalist producer expanded to such a point that it completely crowded out other capitalists. He argued that the tendency toward monopoly, the process of centralization of capitals, “would reach its extreme limit … n a given society … only when the entire social capital was united in the hands of either a single capitalist or a single capitalist company.” As Raya Dunayevskaya noted, Marx’s text implies that such a society “would remain capitalist[;] … this extreme development would in no way change the law of motion of that society.” Engels thus seems to have been stating Marx’s view as well as his own when he wrote, in Anti-Dühring,
[I]“state ownership … does not do away with the capitalistic nature of the productive forces. … The more [of them the state takes over], the more does it actually become the national capitalist, the more citizens does it exploit. The workers remain wage-workers — proletarians. The capitalist relation is not done away with.”

[Geiseric]

State ownership I.e. prussia for the purpose of profit is either a result of the state trying to strengthen capitalism. A workers state ownership as lenin and Marx proposed was run by the working class for the purpose of a transition to a truly socialist economy, ie not one that is for profit of capitalists, but for the appropiation of surplus value into fields recognized for their use value such as public works which are designed by the workers to yield no profit. If the entire economy is run that way out is a class dictatorship. The entire abolition of exchange cannot occur however until capitalism is abolished worldwide. Engels makes this clear on several occasions. His views on the DotP were clarified to be part of the first stage of the class dictatorship, if state ownership is pushed by the workers. Your view is absolute though, the same view that the now "radical," KKE holds now that they are losing support for their betrayals.

[Per Levy]

@geiseric: i find it really sad that you dont adress points but only ever repeat your very flawed understanding of what capitalism and what socialism is.

and syriza is a social democratic party, it doesnt call for the end of capitalism it only calls for the end of austerity. and i get it, a handfull of people of your international is in syriza, that doesnt change the fact that syriza is a social democratic party. it actually enforces that point even more.

and also could you stop lumping everyone you dont like together? that would be very kind.

[TheEmancipator]

@geiseric: i find it really sad that you dont adress points but only ever repeat your very flawed understanding of what capitalism and what socialism is.

and syriza is a social democratic party, it doesnt call for the end of capitalism it only calls for the end of austerity. and i get it, a handfull of people of your international is in syriza, that doesnt change the fact that syriza is a social democratic party. it actually enforces that point even more.

and also could you stop lumping everyone you dont like together? that would be very kind.

So we should support the KKE instead?

[Tim Cornelis]

State ownership I.e. prussia for the purpose of profit is either a result of the state trying to strengthen capitalism. A workers state ownership as lenin and Marx proposed was run by the working class for the purpose of a transition to a truly socialist economy, ie not one that is for profit of capitalists, but for the appropiation of surplus value into fields recognized for their use value such as public works which are designed by the workers to yield no profit. If the entire economy is run that way out is a class dictatorship. The entire abolition of exchange cannot occur however until capitalism is abolished worldwide. Engels makes this clear on several occasions. His views on the DotP were clarified to be part of the first stage of the class dictatorship, if state ownership is pushed by the workers. Your view is absolute though, the same view that the now "radical," KKE holds now that they are losing support for their betrayals.

Nationalisation by a workers' state is different from nationalisation by a bourgeois state. What SYRIZA proposes is a mixed economy, dominated by private enterprise and supplemented by workers' cooperatives and nationalised businesses under the control of a bourgeois state structure, and indeed is a social-democratic party for it. What SYRIZA advocates is fully compatible with the capitalist mode of production -- and indeed panders to the petty bourgeoisie.


(iv) New institutions of social and workers’ control
SYRIZA will create the conditions for the emergence and establishment of new forms of social control ...
All public administration, but especially bodies and structures which manage public funds are accountable to society and the taxpayers.
In parallel, new forms of authentic expression of the will of working people and citizens must emerge, on the basis of direct democracy, removed from clientist, party affiliated, employer or statist rationales of the past, which were nourished by the established two-party system.

Even this is not sufficient to be considered anticapitalist, and quite vague in fact.

Personally, I have a not-entirely-justified weak for broad 'left unity' projects like SYRIZA and Left Unity, so if Greek I would join SYRIZA and work within it. Nevertheless recognising it as social-democratic, bourgeois-socialist at best, reformist, and with petty-bourgeois tendencies.


So we should support the KKE instead?

False dichotomy, both are bourgeois parties.

[Zukunftsmusik]

So we should support the KKE instead?

One would think communists had a perspective beyond mere party politics.

[TheEmancipator]

One would think communists had a perspective beyond mere party politics.

But I want to vote for a party that can improve workers' conditions, regardless of revolutionary potential. I for one believe Syriza has revolutionary potential, because it has successfully ended massive secterian divides in the Greek radical left, which included mostly revolutionary parties.

I would rather vote Syriza than KKE or blank vote and let ND destroy the Greek working class for good.

[Die Neue Zeit]

So reformism is political, anything to the left of 'radical reformism' (another of your made up phrases to mean social democracy, I take it) is what, then?

Define "social democracy." I already place "radical reform" has something further left than left-social-democratic policies, historically.

Revolutionaries can be political, but only if they place class-based democratic changes at the forefront. The stuff of mere labour disputes needs to be subordinated to median skilled workers' standards of living and mass recallability for public officials, not to mention fundamental media overhaul and workers' ability to bear arms, among several other matters.

[Ravachol]

But I want to vote for a party that can improve workers' conditions


Then its tough luck because that isn't gonna happen. Any party with a significant enough position within the state apparatus will end up managing the situation as it is: capital in crisis, and will be forced to prevent a total breakdown which in practice means the implementation of a mix of austerity measures and the occasional (temporary) social measures serving as a steam-valve and guarantee of some basic social reproduction. Rethoric or aspirations have little to do with that.

[Comrade Jacob]

I'm not sure if I should trust these words. Sounds very ultra-opportunist.

[Die Neue Zeit]

State ownership I.e. prussia for the purpose of profit is either a result of the state trying to strengthen capitalism. A workers state ownership as lenin and Marx proposed was run by the working class for the purpose of a transition to a truly socialist economy, ie not one that is for profit of capitalists, but for the appropiation of surplus value into fields recognized for their use value such as public works which are designed by the workers to yield no profit.


Nationalisation by a workers' state is different from nationalisation by a bourgeois state.

Guys, Engels had no problems with permanent nationalizations by a bourgeois state (http://www.revleft.com/vb/permanent-capitalist-nationalizations-t161200/index.html).

I'd like to see advocacy within the GUE-NGL of placing all financial services in Europe, including the money supply, under the public monopoly by and public management of the European Central Bank.

[Full Metal Bolshevik]

Then its tough luck because that isn't gonna happen. Any party with a significant enough position within the state apparatus will end up managing the situation as it is: capital in crisis, and will be forced to prevent a total breakdown which in practice means the implementation of a mix of austerity measures and the occasional (temporary) social measures serving as a steam-valve and guarantee of some basic social reproduction. Rethoric or aspirations have little to do with that.
Never, someone, in just 4 lines managed to make me not want to vote :/

Yes, so far I voted 100% of the times (just 3 times), on the Portuguese Communist Party because they do defend the working class. But what you say makes sense.

However, voting (and gaining representativity) might still be a way to make people more wary.

[Zukunftsmusik]

I'm not sure if I should trust these words. Sounds very ultra-opportunist.

Who or what are you referring to?

[FSL]

Hold on now. I don't mean to take a side in this silly debate, but I think this might be the crux of the confusion going on here.

Just because our end-goal cannot be reached through reforming capitalism doesn't mean that no short-term gains can be accomplished at all without a violent uprising. My goal is the betterment of life. If a shitty minimum wage law or something can be enacted and - right now - make life a little bit better for some people, then I am all for that change.

I think it is easy to sit back and criticize people as "reformists" on the internet, but at the end of the day, ideology doesn't matter worth a fuck without results. Dead workers don't revolt, and people scraping by on two jobs to feed their families don't go march in the streets.
I think many people don't really understand how capitalism works, that's why they confuse socialism with an "advanced social democracy" and can't see the distinction between the two.


One thing in your post is your eagerness to support a party, any party, that promises a however small improvement in the living standards.
That's every party in every country in every election ever.
You also speak about "short-term gains".
We're in 2013 so say short term gains involve any changes achieved say up to 2017, as long as a government lasts.

In 2017 when you need to make the same decision, will you then think about our long term goals? Or will you then follow again the same reasoning and vote for the party that promises a however marginal impovement in life until 2021?
In 2021 what will you do?


You then reduce yourself to a voter who once every few years trusts a party to make your life better. The best case scenario for your plan and your line of inaction is that these parties never lie to you and you've reached 2025 with some raises in the minimum wage. That's it, that's the end of it.

That ends up being your actual long term goal when you act like that. Communism, freedom, all those things are words in your head, maybe they occasionally come out of your mouth but nothing more. Elections are a way to measure the maturity of theworking class. Voting for the "lesser evil" at all times doesn't really show a long term plan nor a very mature stance...

[FSL]

I've split the post because it was hard to read.



...But those things aside, the most important part in what you -and others- said is this: That you believe it's possible, likely even, that the life of the workers, of the majority, improves. Thanks to legislation.
That people will get their pensions back, their jobs back, their full salaries back. Or at least some of their pensions, jobs and salaries.


What you don't understand is that it isn't legislation that took these things away. Legislation is a mere formality to present a demeocratic facade to everyone.
Capitalism took these things away.
Capitalists stop investing cause the competition between them got too intense, because they invested too much in the previous years (when Greece had a growth averaging about 4% and still had many unemployed and poorly paid workers), because salaries rose too high.

For example many companies now are oursourcing their call centers to bring down the wages of their employees. They are hiring young people for 80% of the minimum wage on three-month contracts, always subject to a lay-off.
But as twisted and sad as this is, capitalists need it. This is how they get their profits back up. This is what will lead to a new period of growth.


When you say that Tsipras or Syriza will improve the living standards, how do you imagine that that becomes a reality? You're looking at hollow decisions and not at the fundamentals of the capitalist economy.

And I have to say that in this case it's you who's being naive, not Syriza.
Syriza's union wing had no trouble signing wage reductions in the retail industry together with unionists that just now broke from pasok to carry on doing what they've been doing succesfully from years. Syriza and its leader are constantly speaking of the need to support a healthy enterpreneurship, it supported the local pharmaceutical industry in its fight against the government for higher drugs prices (see, not all of the bourgeoisie is united on every subject, they are all united on only one thing, exploiting workers).

A new thing that broke out recently is how some of its MPs have hundreds of thousands of euros invested in Blackrock and JP Morgan. A hundred times the party has praised Obama and his pro-people policies and someone said that Tsipras is not Hollande yet Hollande was described as a "wind of change in Europe" when he was elected.
Saying Tsipras is not Hollande is seeing things backward. It's Hollande who's Tsipras. Ie someone who's called to manage capitalism (and french capitalism isn't at least as of now in a crisis similar to the greek one in terms of severity) and "finds out" that he can't even give those breadcrumbs he had promised.
And does that lead by itself to a radicalization of the people? No, in France it's the National Front that gains, and it's almost always the quasi-fascists that gain when politicians come out as liars and frauds. People learn to settle even bigger "lesser evils" because even the tiniest hope they had is ridiculed.



So to sum up: 1) I don't think the lesser evil, short-term thing leads anywhere. Not even to the that small, miniscule improvement in living standards it's meant to offer.
2) I really don't think you understand why any meaningful improvement in the living standards just isn't possible during a crisis. This isn't because of a political leadership that just hates workers. Dead workers don't rebel but they don't produce either. Anyone that supports capitalism at this point in time has his hands tied in terms of what policies he can follow.

Small differences can always be found. We haven't had a wave of evictions yet. We still have a public health system. We still have tuition-free education.

Would you then vote for ND over Obama as the pro-people solution?
Would you vote for Tsipras and be happy with your decision if he had one or two similar "achievements" to show when the whole situation has actually gone past tragic?

[GerrardWinstanley]

I don't want to dwell too much on the on the supposed prevalence of social democrats and right-wing Eurocommunists in SYRIZA (which I guess is true), but Tsipras is clearly an egomaniac for that statement alone so I wouldn't blame any Greeks who are less than impressed with him.

And enough with these insinuations that anybody who doesn't support him is responsible for the misery of Greek pensioners and hospital patients. Pathetic.

[MarxSchmarx]

I echo what the emancipator said:


Debate his views instead of crying 'social democrat' ffs. This thread is not about what is or is not DNZ's, and for that matter anyone else's, revolutuionary creds. If you feel someone is insufficiently revolutionary to participate on the main boards, there are plenty of other venues on revleft for making that case.

Do so there.

This is a thread about Alexis Tsipras and an analysis of Syriza in the context of radical left politics.

I don't care which side of this issue you fall on or who you are. Any further OT posts in this thread about whether this or that member is or is not deserving to participate in a discussion will be trashed and will be treated as flaming.

[Die Neue Zeit]

This is a thread about Alexis Tsipras and an analysis of Syriza in the context of radical left politics.

Actually, comrade, I wanted to provide and receive more insight on politics in relation to the European Union, not just Greece.

[Geiseric]

I don't want to dwell too much on the on the supposed prevalence of social democrats and right-wing Eurocommunists in SYRIZA (which I guess is true), but Tsipras is clearly an egomaniac for that statement alone so I wouldn't blame any Greeks who are less than impressed with him.

And enough with these insinuations that anybody who doesn't support him is responsible for the misery of Greek pensioners and hospital patients. Pathetic.
How is inactivity during a revolutionary period on the part of the "left" not responsible for all of the worst tragedies of the century? Such as fascism, which rose because the communists were just as Likely to shoot formally Social dem voting workers as the Nazis? Have you ever heard of the idiocy known as the "third period"?

[Revy]

Well, I know if something SYRIZA existed in the US or UK and was achieving the same level of success, leftists would be overjoyed with excitement. But now we can sit atop our ivory towers and yell "bourgeois reformist" about SYRIZA from afar. Most critiques of Tsipras revolve around a few reformist sounding statements he made while ignoring the more revolutionary sounding statements. Sure, a Tsipras government may not abolish capitalism, but it will certainly weaken it. If capitalism is like a brick wall, and SYRIZA government will continually put holes in that brick wall, making it weaker and more prone to collapse as a system, then why not? A lot of leftists are very moralistic about the idea of an elected socialist government, ignoring the benefits of living under one, as opposed to living under your normal capitalist government. When SYRIZA really moderates its tone and becomes this "social democratic" boogeyman, socialists may ready their arrows of condemnation. No revolution is immediate. They are not created out of vacuums that suddenly appear with much force and are over in seconds. You should look at the history of the RSDLP for some reflections on that. While initially boycotting Duma elections, the Bolshevik-led RSDLP was represented in the Duma, the Parliament of the Tsarist government. That is, the RSDLP was part of the same government it overthrew! Rather than rejecting elections and participation in government outright, the Bolsheviks saw it as part of a path to revolution! How very ironic that many leftists today completely reject such strategies on purist-revolutionary grounds.

Of course there are very real criticisms to be made of SYRIZA, but the best chance the left in Greece has is with SYRIZA. And it is only with the participation of more radical leftists that the "Coalition of the Radical Left" can be genuinely radical enough. If the Bolsheviks simply left the RSDLP instead of trying to gain control, leaving it to the Mensheviks, the RSDLP would most likely have evolved into a social democratic party like the German SDP. If Tsipras is the problem, he can be replaced by a different leader, if the more radical factions struggle for power in the party rather than abandoning it. If only SYRIZA could be blessed with the various splits that have happened all over the left due to the conflicts of ideologies and personalities! Then the voice of the Greek left would be perfect, perfect but small...

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Not being funny, but anybody who really thinks SYRIZA has any revolutionary credentials whatsoever should just check out the following article:

http://neoskosmos.com/news/en/tsipras-sees-syriza-govern-next-year

Tsipras is just a typical, power-seeking, bourgeois social democrat. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Geiseric]

Not being funny, but anybody who really thinks SYRIZA has any revolutionary credentials whatsoever should just check out the following article:

http://neoskosmos.com/news/en/tsipras-sees-syriza-govern-next-year

Tsipras is just a typical, power-seeking, bourgeois social democrat. Nothing more, nothing less.

Your so full of it. Seriously did you read the part where it said "ruling out privatizations"? That seriously makes austerity impossible.

[Ravachol]

Your so full of it. Seriously did you read the part where it said "ruling out privatizations"? That seriously makes austerity impossible.

Oh, I suppose that settles that then. If only the technocrats of the various struggeling economies of the European periphery knew that all it took to evade the actual physical reality of their economic predicament was a populist line in a newspaper interview everybody would be much better off! I predict a very, very short term for a SYRIZA behind the driving wheel if they plan on sticking to that 'promise' haha

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Your so full of it. Seriously did you read the part where it said "ruling out privatizations"? That seriously makes austerity impossible.

OK, and that's great (genuinely), but if socialism = no more privatisations, then we may as well just vote for this guy and go home.

It is classic social democracy to oppose privatisations. I don't see how that changes the situation at all. If you want to support that, go ahead. I see nothing but a dead end supporting this crap.

[FSL]

Well, I know if something SYRIZA existed in the US or UK and was achieving the same level of success, leftists would be overjoyed with excitement.
According to Syriza and Tsipras, something very similar to them already exists in the US. In fact, it is found in the White House.



Mr. Tsipras sought to shed the caricatures that have shaped the international image of the Greek left. In a country where leftists have historically been incendiary, prone to violence, and aggressively anti-American, Mr. Tsipras came across as genial, courteous, pragmatic, and eager to hear American views. While he certainly has strong ideological leanings, he showed himself to be someone genuinely interested in hearing suggestions and even criticisms. He spoke warmly about President Obama’s inaugural calls for social justice.
http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-front/posts/2013/01/25-tsipras-washington-antholis-lombardi



You should look at the history of the RSDLP for some reflections on that. While initially boycotting Duma elections, the Bolshevik-led RSDLP was represented in the Duma, the Parliament of the Tsarist government. That is, the RSDLP was part of the same government it overthrew! Rather than rejecting elections and participation in government outright, the Bolsheviks saw it as part of a path to revolution! How very ironic that many leftists today completely reject such strategies on purist-revolutionary grounds.
You don't seem to understand that Duma was just a parliament. Not a government. The bolshevicks did participate in those parliamentary elections on some occasions and did boycott them on other ones.

See? The debate then was on whether workers' revolutionary parties should abstain from elections altogether or just take part when they see fit.
Now, it's not the "taking part in elections" we've come to debate since that seems the end all be all for everyone.
It's governing a capitalist state, with a programme similar to Obama's that will somehow make capitalism humane and leave everyone, workers and capitalists alike, satisified.


That this joke has even gained traction among people who consider themselves revolutionary only shows the backwardness of our time. Our political backwardness.

[Per Levy]

Your so full of it. Seriously did you read the part where it said "ruling out privatizations"? That seriously makes austerity impossible.

so "ruling out privatisation" is revolutionary now? is that what counts as revolutionary for you?
i mean i get it, your international is part of syriza so you support it, but why arnt you supporting the spd then? i mean your german comrades are all in the spd after all and you dont defend the spd.

also geiseric, the only one who really is "so full of it", is you.

[KokkinoTsakali]

Without the ultra-leftist criticism, that many have made on this post, I'd say that I'm surprised to see people really understanding what SYRIZA is, without having any delusions.

I won't defend Tsipras on his personal, or his now-disbanded organisation's views, because they do a horrible job in understanding Marxism. I will defend SYRIZA however, because even if the majority is comprised of reformists, it's not something that cannot be changed.

In the party's 1st Congress in July, the leadership went all out on the organisations that comprise SYRIZA. They called for the "unification of SYRIZA" meaning that the organisations should decide to disband. Practically, they tried to enhance Tsipras's role as president of the party, while minimizing the ability of the dissidents to express their opinion equally.

Despite the leadership's efforts, my organization, among others, refused to disband, which led them to back off. The "Left Platform" (a coalition among the left-wing members of SYRIZA) increased its popularity within SYRIZA from 25% in autumn 2012 to 30% in July 2013. Generally, this shows that the situation within SYRIZA is dynamic, and can change in the favor of the revolutionary Left if the social democrats keep being exposed and pressed.

No one supports the notion that SYRIZA is a revolutionary party. It's not. However, when capitalists fight even reformists that dream of a Keynesian economy, because even that is enough for them to be displeased, it does say something. If SYRIZA fails (which will happen if the social-democrats are on its helm) then Golden Dawn will most likely win the next elections. If SYRIZA wins (which will happen if the radical left within it 'win') then there lies an open way to a period in which the working class will be radicalized and will escalate its struggle, a period which is necessary for a revolution.

PS. SYRIZA isn't the left party that keeps been congratulated by the bourgeoisie since 2008. That's KKE. ;)

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

[QUOTE=KokkinoTsakali;2703285]I will defend SYRIZA however, because even if the majority is comprised of reformists, it's not something that cannot be changed.

Yet pretty much every social democratic party in history that has a revolutionary left wing has abandoned even pretences of social democracy and moved to the centre, or centre-right. There is so much historical evidence going against what you're saying, it is pure fantasy to suggest that you can turn a rotten corpse into something revolutionary and alive.



No one supports the notion that SYRIZA is a revolutionary party. It's not. However, when capitalists fight even reformists that dream of a Keynesian economy, because even that is enough for them to be displeased, it does say something.

This makes no sense. Reformists are capitalists. Keynes was pretty much the arch-capitalist, Keynesian economics is perfectly compatible with the most classical of capitalist economic approaches. The fighting between the conservatives and reformists is nothing more than ideological capitalist in-fighting, it has no bearing itself on the wider class struggle.


If SYRIZA fails (which will happen if the social-democrats are on its helm) then Golden Dawn will most likely win the next elections. If SYRIZA wins (which will happen if the radical left within it 'win') then there lies an open way to a period in which the working class will be radicalized and will escalate its struggle, a period which is necessary for a revolution.

What do you mean by fail and win? For the working class, SYRIZA can be nothing other than a failure, in the long-run. If they lose the next election, then one of the capitalist parties will probably get in, with GD having a higher proportion of the vote. If SYRIZA win the next election, they will govern like any other social democratic party: left rhetoric disguising standard Keynesian economic policies that are in line with any capitalist economic theories on how to run the economy on the side of the bourgeoisie.

[laoch na phoblacht]

true leftists in Europe should oppose the European union it is a neomedieval empire and does nothing to help its citizens.

[FSL]

This makes no sense. Reformists are capitalists. Keynes was pretty much the arch-capitalist, Keynesian economics is perfectly compatible with the most classical of capitalist economic approaches. The fighting between the conservatives and reformists is nothing more than ideological capitalist in-fighting, it has no bearing itself on the wider class struggle.


This. It's the same thing everywhere, that's why there are many different capitalist parties. In fact there aren't really any ideological differences. Just different sides. Say republicans in the US are close to the defence and oil industries while democrats subsidize renewable energy and insurance companies.

At the end some rich guy is getting richer and claims that that's a good because patriotism or because ozon. They of course couldn't really care less about anything other than their pocket.



Same thing in Greece. There are just two sides that the capitalists have split into. Bankers and companies that import and resell mostly support the government. Industrialists and others are against the memorandum and "silently" in favor of Syriza.
So you get people like the one above who'll be oh so proud when one capitalist speaks against them but will keep his mouth shut when the head of the industrialist's union repeats Syriza's arguments or when the heads of a pharmaceutical industry attack the current health minister. They'll keep their mouth shut when the head of the party expresses his sincere love for investors and enterpreneurs.
And of course DEA isn't any better than Syriza overall. That's why they don't mind being there. They basically say the same things and describe a humane capitalism but want to substitute the euro with the drachma. Class politics!


If that's not hypocrisy, don't know what is.

[KokkinoTsakali]

Yet pretty much every social democratic party in history that has a revolutionary left wing has abandoned even pretences of social democracy and moved to the centre, or centre-right. There is so much historical evidence going against what you're saying, it is pure fantasy to suggest that you can turn a rotten corpse into something revolutionary and alive.

Yeah, these parties introduced neoliberalism in Europe. What has SYRIZA to do with them?



This makes no sense. Reformists are capitalists. Keynes was pretty much the arch-capitalist, Keynesian economics is perfectly compatible with the most classical of capitalist economic approaches. The fighting between the conservatives and reformists is nothing more than ideological capitalist in-fighting, it has no bearing itself on the wider class struggle.

You miss the point. The capitalists fear SYRIZA not for its current political line, but its potential. It is the first radical left party in decades that has mass appeal and that is actually close to taking over the state.



What do you mean by fail and win?

SYRIZA will win if the reformists are pressed to keep their electoral programme promises. Alleviating the suffering of the working class would enable them to escalate their struggle. SYRIZA will lose if after it wins the elections, chooses the conservative way of dealing with the crisis.







Same thing in Greece. There are just two sides that the capitalists have split into. Bankers and companies that import and resell mostly support the government. Industrialists and others are against the memorandum and "silently" in favor of Syriza.



So you get people like the one above who'll be oh so proud when one capitalist speaks against them but will keep his mouth shut when the head of the industrialist's union repeats Syriza's arguments or when the heads of a pharmaceutical industry attack the current health minister.They'll keep their mouth shut when the head of the party expresses his sincere love for investors and enterpreneurs.

Do you have any proof for your claims? What I see is that you're clearly ignorant of our work within SYRIZA. We're among the few within SYRIZA that never stop criticizing the leadership and constantly arguing with it.


And of course DEA isn't any better than Syriza overall. That's why they don't mind being there. They basically say the same things and describe a humane capitalism but want to substitute the euro with the drachma. Class politics!


Right.

People like you are the ones that have the worst delusions. The ones that don't get their hands dirty, but rather keep criticizing all others who actually do something. Lenin has written a book about you; I'd suggest you read it to learn something about yourself. ;)

Also, cooperating with the reformists (you know those capitalists you mentioned before) to attract the working class to support a revolution is the essence of the united front. Wanna read something about that, or you'll call Lenin a counter-revolutionary, too?

PS. FSL what organization/party are you into?

[Per Levy]

Yeah, these parties introduced neoliberalism in Europe. What has SYRIZA to do with them?

syriza is a social democratic party of course and has all the flaws of a social democratic party.


You miss the point. The capitalists fear SYRIZA not for its current political line, but its potential. It is the first radical left party in decades that has mass appeal and that is actually close to taking over the state.

you say syriza is close to take over the state, the state is the tool of the ruling class to supress the working class, and that nature of the bourgois state wont change with syriza forming a goverment. personally i doubt that the ruling class fears syriza, they probally see it just as any social democratic party, saving the bourgoisie from the revolting working masses.


Do you have any proof for your claims? What I see is that you're clearly ignorant of our work within SYRIZA. We're among the few within SYRIZA that never stop criticizing the leadership and constantly arguing with it.

so in one post you state the radical wing of syriza gains more and more popularity in the party(and might even win over the party), yet now you say that you are part of only a few who criticize the reformist leadership. how does that work?


People like you are the ones that have the worst delusions. The ones that don't get their hands dirty, but rather keep criticizing all others who actually do something. Lenin has written a book about you; I'd suggest you read it to learn something about yourself. ;)

mmh wich book could that be? if it is "left communims an infantile disorder" id be very much disapointed. especially since fsl isnt even close to be a left-com.
anyway, "doing something" is counterproductive and counterrevolutionary if you're actually doing the wrong thing. and trying to push a social democratic party to become "radical" is certantly a wrong thing, since it doesnt work. also your doing something will only bring one thing and one thing only, that tsipras will get a cushy chair and a nice title like president or primeminister.


Also, cooperating with the reformists (you know those capitalists you mentioned before) to attract the working class to support a revolution is the essence of the united front.

are you a salesman? do you sell the revolution to the working masses who have no idea? is that why you support reformists? try to put them in power? and working together with reformists helps the working class to support a revolution? aka "hey vote for syriza to support a revolution". will the revolution that the working class is supposed to support(who makes the revolution then if the working class is only there to support it?) just magically happen once syriza is in power? please tell me more.


Wanna read something about that, or you'll call Lenin a counter-revolutionary, too?

oh that appeal to authority, that is always a great argument, because the situation lenin wrote about some 90 years ago in another country is totally the same as in greece right now isnt it?


PS. FSL what organization/party are you into?

if i remember correctly, he is in the kke.

[KokkinoTsakali]

syriza is a social democratic party of course and has all the flaws of a social democratic party.

Well, actually, no. SYRIZA is not (yet) a bureaucratic, figure-oriented, bourgeois party claiming to be social-democratic. If you can't see the difference between SPD-PASOK-etc and SYRIZA, then you have some studying to do. SYRIZA is still a multi-party coalition, despite the unification progress that its leadership wanted to impose. Power correlation is subject to change.




you say syriza is close to take over the state, the state is the tool of the ruling class to supress the working class, and that nature of the bourgois state wont change with syriza forming a goverment. personally i doubt that the ruling class fears syriza, they probally see it just as any social democratic party, saving the bourgoisie from the revolting working masses.

You can doubt it. But that doesn't really change the truth, does it?



so in one post you state the radical wing of syriza gains more and more popularity in the party(and might even win over the party), yet now you say that you are part of only a few who criticize the reformist leadership. how does that work?

Yeah, how does the one cancel out the other? Indeed, we are part of a few who criticize the leadership. 30% is still a minority isn't it?



mmh wich book could that be? if it is "left communims an infantile disorder" id be very much disapointed. especially since fsl isnt even close to be a left-com.

Unfortunately, he is.



anyway, "doing something" is counterproductive and counterrevolutionary if you're actually doing the wrong thing.

True. But since what the revolutionaries within SYRIZA do is something that Leninists judge as practically right, you should use this argument towards other parties.



are you a salesman? do you sell the revolution to the working masses who have no idea?

Uhm, what? What's the point in calling yourself a revolutionary if you don't try to organize the working class and cultivate its class consciousness?



and trying to push a social democratic party to become "radical" is certantly a wrong thing, since it doesnt work.


is that why you support reformists? try to put them in power? and working together with reformists helps the working class to support a revolution?

I don't 'support' reformists. I work with them, in a coalition called SYRIZA that was formed by my organization's iniative, too, for a reason. If you don't know what this reason is, I suggest you read again about the united front.


aka "hey vote for syriza to support a revolution". will the revolution that the working class is supposed to support(who makes the revolution then if the working class is only there to support it?) just magically happen once syriza is in power? please tell me more.

I mean to support the notion of realising a revolution. To crush the social democratic delusions of managing capitalism by winning them over in favor of a revolution. Got it?



oh that appeal to authority, that is always a great argument, because the situation lenin wrote about some 90 years ago in another country is totally the same as in greece right now isnt it?

Yeah, right, what can Lenin provide us with? What about the party of a new type which is also 90 years old? Should we scratch that out, too?



if i remember correctly, he is in the kke.

Well, that makes sense.

[Die Neue Zeit]

An interesting detail at the EU level that hasn't been talked much is the use of national interest clauses for European Council vetoes. (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/greece-could-use-veto-to-force-shift-in-euro-policy-2013-12-06)

[robbo203]

Your so full of it. Seriously did you read the part where it said "ruling out privatizations"? That seriously makes austerity impossible.


How does state capitalism make austerity impossible? It has become awfully trendy for a large swathe of the reformist Left to pin the blame for workers' woes on something nebulously defined as "neoliberalism". Our problems are thus attributed to a set of misguided economic policies rather than the economic system we live under. People seem to have short memories: it was the utter failure and bankrutpcy of the state regulated-cum-Keynesian policy to nullify capitalism's built in trade cycle that paved the way to neoliberalism which will equally fail in its foredoomed attempt to deliver what the politicians promise

It is capitalism that runs the government not the other way round and it is high time the lesson began to sink in. The pathos of the reformist forever grasping at straws and opportunistically formulating so called "transitional demands" - a bankrupt concept if there ever was one - is not a road going anywhere but a roadblock on the way to a better society

[FSL]

People like you are the ones that have the worst delusions. The ones that don't get their hands dirty, but rather keep criticizing all others who actually do something. Lenin has written a book about you; I'd suggest you read it to learn something about yourself.
So communist politics are meant to get your hands dirty?


I'm pretty sure Lenin has written something very applicable to this situation.

Oh, yes, gentlemen! You are free not only to invite us, but to go yourselves wherever you will, even into the Swamp. In fact, we think that the Swamp is your proper place, and we are prepared to render you every assistance to get there. Only let go of our hands, don’t clutch at us and don’t besmirch the grand word freedom, for we too are “free” to go where we please, free to fight not only against the Swamp, but also against those who are turning towards the Swamp!


The swamp would get your hands dirty enough, no?
It wouldn't change anything about the fudamentals of capitalism of course, it wouldn't change at all the fact that in order to get out of the crisis, workers need to suffer and profits need to rise.
But if getting your hands dirty is what you care about, you have nothing to worry.

[FSL]

I mean to support the notion of realising a revolution. To crush the social democratic delusions of managing capitalism by winning them over in favor of a revolution. Got it?
To crash the social democratic delusions constantly propagated by
a) the coalition you are currently in
b) the faction of the coalition you are currently in
c) the very party you're in.

Or maybe saying that a looser monetary police will help save workers isn't cultivating socialdemocratic delusions?
Isn't that a way to substitute marxist analysis with keynesianism?
That's what even the left platform and DEA focus on, isn't it? All the factory owners will keep their factories. All the hotel owners will keep their hotels. Pretty much every capitalist keeps his property. But you appoint someone to some public bank, print a load of drachmas and voila, happiness for everyone! For investors and for workers!
Isn't that exactly what even you, the radical ones, are proposing?
And to call that "revolutionary"! The nerve.

[KokkinoTsakali]

So communist politics are meant to get your hands dirty?


The swamp would get your hands dirty enough, no?
It wouldn't change anything about the fudamentals of capitalism of course, it wouldn't change at all the fact that in order to get out of the crisis, workers need to suffer and profits need to rise.
But if getting your hands dirty is what you care about, you have nothing to worry.

You can play dumb if you want, but it's not going to lead anywhere. It's quite obvious that I meant to cooperate with the reformists in order to win the people in favor of the revolution. What your party does is criticising the reformists, calling for a revolution. If the Greek working class was ready for a revolution it wouldn't be fooled by reformists in the first place.

What the KKE's doing right now, this "purist" view that it has about forming coalitions with other parties, including the fact that does not participate in any struggle not controlled by PAME, is not what revolutionaries do. I would expect it from an anarchist group, but not from a party that has the nerve to call itself the "vanguard" of the working class.


To crash the social democratic delusions constantly propagated by
a) the coalition you are currently in
b) the faction of the coalition you are currently in
c) the very party you're in.

Besides the obvious fact that SYRIZA (not all of it) promotes social-democratic delusions (what a surprise; it's composed by soc-dems in its majority!), all I see is lies. If you have some proof, share it with us please.


That's what even the left platform and DEA focus on, isn't it? All the factory owners will keep their factories. All the hotel owners will keep their hotels. Pretty much every capitalist keeps his property.

Wishing for the workers to seize the means of production, isn't going to lead to a revolution. Just telling the workers that you're a revolutionary, isn't going to convince them either. Don't expect the workers to follow the so-called communist party, just because it has a long history.