DPRK purges old school

[TheGodlessUtopian]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia-pacific/2013/12/n-korea-executes-uncle-leader-kim-jong-un-2013121221458939462.html

[The Feral Underclass]

I wonder what the real reason is.

[Sinister Intents]

I wonder what the real reason is.

Me as well, I just heard about this on the local news channel.

[Hrafn]

Having visited Pyongyang earlier this year, I've developed a strange fascination for the country. This really comes as a surprise to me, huh.

[Queen Mab]

All hail the Great Leader!

[adipocere]

I wonder what the real reason is.
To fill some spook's 1 shock-story per month quota

[Alexios]

To fill some spook's 1 shock-story per month quota

nah, this came straight from the NK state news agency. stop inventing dumb conspiracy theories in place of an actual argument.


Having visited Pyongyang earlier this year, I've developed a strange fascination for the country. This really comes as a surprise to me, huh.

lol

[adipocere]

nah, this came straight from the NK state news agency. stop inventing dumb conspiracy theories in place of an actual argument.
KCNA is published from Japan, their photo is another crap photoshop (http://www.nknews.org/2013/12/north-korea-executes-jang-song-thaek-for-factionalism/) from a cheap aggregater out of Washington DC. All of this comes from SK. People's willingness to take bullshit at face value is disturbing.

edit: to see KCNA from NK, you have to type in the KCNA.kp (http://kcna.kp/kcna.user.home.retrieveHomeInfoList.kcmsf) or go here: Voice of Korea (http://www.vok.rep.kp/CBC/english.php?sYear1=2013&sMonth1=12&sDate1=13)

finally found the source article from NK (http://kcna.kp/kcna.user.article.retrieveNewsViewInfoList.kcmsf?l ang=en#this): you have to go to page 2.

[p0is0n]

KCNA is published from Japan, their photo is another crap photoshop (http://www.nknews.org/2013/12/north-korea-executes-jang-song-thaek-for-factionalism/) from a cheap aggregater out of Washington DC. All of this comes from SK. People's willingness to take bullshit at face value is disturbing.
wat

Didn't they also announce it on Voice of Korea? And I'm sure I saw an entire series of pictures of the individual in question being taken away by KPA guards from the congress or what it was.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

Jang is Kim Jung Un's uncle, I believe. Apparently he smoothed the way for Kim to assume power and was something of a "regent" while Lil Kim learned the ropes.As happens with many regents, Jang became too powerful, seems to have developed his own client network and either was a threat to Lil Kim or was perceived to be a potential threat. The kid is quickly learning the ropes.

Jang was taken out in the most humiliating way possible to warn his faction.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25359939


The once-powerful uncle of North Korean leader Kim Jong-un has been executed after being purged for "acts of treachery", state media say.
Chang Song-thaek was dramatically removed from a Communist Party session by armed guards earlier this week.
It was the biggest upheaval since Mr Kim succeeded his father two years ago.
State news agency KCNA said Mr Chang had admitted at a military trial on Thursday to attempting to overthrow the state, and was executed immediately.
Mr Chang, who is thought to have mentored his nephew during the leadership transition from Kim Jong-il to his son Kim Jong-un in 2011, was "worse than a dog", said the agency.
He had admitted abusing his positions of responsibility to form a faction against the state and to harbouring his own political ambitions, it said in a lengthy and detailed report.
In the US, the White House said it could not independently verify the reports but had "no reason to doubt" them.
"If confirmed, this is another example of the extreme brutality of the North Korean regime. We are following developments in North Korea closely and consulting with our allies and partners in the region," it said in a statement.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/71692000/jpg/_71692952_020326084-1.jpg An image of Mr Chang in court, his hands bound, was released on Friday
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/71714000/jpg/_71714900_020326687-1.jpg Before his fall from grace, he was frequently pictured beside leader Kim Jong-un
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/71714000/jpg/_71714902_020291355-1.jpg South Korean President Park Geun-hye said the North was carrying out a "reign of terror"Chang Song-thaek

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/71714000/jpg/_71714230_71714229.jpg


Born 1946; marries Kim Jong-il's sister in 1972
Joins Korean Workers' Party administrative ranks in 1970s
Elected to Central Committee in 1992
Sidelined in 2004, but rehabilitated in 2006
2011: Gets top military post under Kim Jong-un
Nov 2013: Dismissed from his position
December 2013: Executed as a "traitor"



Profile: Chang Song-thaek (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25197601)
Secretive 'first family' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11297747)


Mr Chang - married to the elder Kim's sister - had held senior posts in the ruling party and the National Defence Commission, the North's top military body.
He was frequently pictured alongside his nephew and seen by some observers as the power behind the throne.
But in early December, it emerged that he had been removed from his senior military position and that two of his aides had been executed.
Then on Monday, KCNA broadcast footage of him being removed from a party session by uniformed guards.
In a long report on Friday, KCNA described Mr Chang as a "traitor" and "human scum".
It said: "Chang dreamed such a foolish dream that once he seizes power by a base method, his despicable true colours as 'reformist' known to the outside world would help his 'new government' get 'recognised' by foreign countries in a short span of time."
It also said Mr Chang:


Attempted to "overthrow the state"
Transformed his department into "a 'little kingdom'" and attempted to "trigger off discontent" within the army to mobilise a coup
Took control of the "major economic fields of the country" and "schemed to drive the economy of the country and people's living into an uncontrollable catastrophe"
Committed corruption by transferring construction units to his contacts
Committed irregularities related to a joint economic zone with China, Rason
Was responsible for unpopular currency reforms in 2009. In December 2009 Pyongyang's reported redenomination of the won knocked two zeros off the nominal value of each banknote.

Mr Chang admitted his "crimes" in court and a death sentence was "immediately executed", KCNA said.
Economic reforms? Analysts say his fall from grace could be seen as the latest in a series of carefully calibrated moves to demonstrate Kim Jong-un's authority and an assertion of his independence.


Analysis

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/56623000/jpg/_56623088_56623087.jpg Lucy Williamson BBC News, Seoul
This purge is striking for its speed and publicity. The crimes Chang Song-thaek was accused of - disloyalty and insurrection - are the most serious North Korea can muster.
His proximity to power and his positions of responsibility had, state media said, led him to see himself as equal to the country's young leader, and seek to topple him.
Chang Song-thaek had a lot of power over economic decisions, and regularly handled relations with China. Some believe that Jang's admiration for China's growth model led to policy differences within the regime.
But others say this is a battle for control of the North Korean state; that its young leader, Kim Jong-un, had outgrown his uncle's protection, and saw him instead as a rival and potential threat.
Chang Song-thaek has already been edited out of official documentaries: his story rewritten by the country's powerful propaganda machine. His dramatic fall from grace, designed to hammer the message home: that no one - not family members, not North Korea's most senior figures - is beyond retribution.
But the worry remains: how much does this story reveal about instability at the heart of the North Korean regime?





In August 2012, Mr Chang made a high profile trip to China, where he met then-President Hu Jintao. The two sides later signed a raft of economic deals, including the development of two special economic zones: Rason, on North Korea's east coast, and Hwanggumphyong, on the border with China.
The BBC's Lucy Williamson in Seoul says there are various theories surrounding Mr Chang's demise, including suggestions that his work with China had led him to admire some of Beijing's economic reforms.
But it is more likely that he presented a perceived threat to his nephew's authority, says our correspondent.
As news of the purge emerged earlier this week, South Korean President Park Geun-hye warned the North was "carrying out a reign of terror" to reinforce Mr Kim's position.
She said the volatile relationship between the two countries was likely to become "more unstable" as a result.
On Friday, South Korea's military said it had tightened surveillance on Pyongyang, news agency Yonhap reported.
Unification Ministry spokesman Kim Eyi-do said the government had "deep concerns" about the latest developments and was "watching the situation closely".
Meanwhile, Japan's top government spokesman Yoshihide Suga said: "We will calmly monitor the situation while communicating with other countries and collect relevant information."
Chinese state media reported on Mr Chang's execution, but there has been no official government response so far.


He admitted his crimes and was "immediately executed" ... I wonder exactly how literal that is? They make it sound like the Flying Circus episode where they end up in Soviet Russia in front of the firing squad.

[Remus Bleys]

Theyre not even called the Communist Party. ugh

[Popular Front of Judea]

Workers World rationalization in 3 - 2 - 1 ...

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Theyre not even called the Communist Party. ugh

Yeah but if we call it the Korea Worker's Party then we can't attribute this style of politics to Communists.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Workers World rationalization in 3 - 2 - 1 ...

It's all about returning to Marxism you see! It's just like when Xi Jinping was talking about clamping down on "western values", it's totally not like Xi Jinping presided over the privatization of the countryside or that Kim Jong Un appointed a pro-reformist minster a few months back and that this guy was the only remainder of the Songun era standing between Kim and complete policy control.....

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Hehe, love that the first reaction, by some, is 'theyr'e not even called the Communist Party, god!' *huff*

No comment on this shining example of the eronenous regime doing what it does best and re-enforcing every suspicion / prejudice held about any 'workers party'-led 'peoples republic' (brutal purges, almost comical state media coverage, editing out the 'traitor' from old footage as if he never existed).

Though I agree the reasoning behind it; always portray such regimes as 'communist' because communism = brutal regimes with military outifts and stern expressions.

[Prometeo liberado]

I'm pretty sure that Stalin was behind this. Pretty sure.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Hardly the worst thing the DPRK has done, but I'm sure some so-called "communists" will defend it.

[Tim Cornelis]

At least one person got something approximating what he deserved.


I wonder what the real reason is.

It looks like corporate power play, except with guns.


KCNA is published from Japan, their photo is another crap photoshop (http://www.nknews.org/2013/12/north-korea-executes-jang-song-thaek-for-factionalism/) from a cheap aggregater out of Washington DC. All of this comes from SK. People's willingness to take bullshit at face value is disturbing.

edit: to see KCNA from NK, you have to type in the KCNA.kp (http://kcna.kp/kcna.user.home.retrieveHomeInfoList.kcmsf) or go here: Voice of Korea (http://www.vok.rep.kp/CBC/english.php?sYear1=2013&sMonth1=12&sDate1=13)

Maybe you should check your own website, Voice of Korea. It says, "...and decided to put him to death according to the article. The decision was immediately executed."

I suppose whenever you hear something on the news you deny it unless you've personally witnessed it, otherwise it's "taking bullshit at face value."

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I'm willing to believe that he was obviously an American spy then. It seems certain after this one execution that Kim is clearing the party of capitalist roaders.

[Os Cangaceiros]

He had been accused of a string of criminal acts including corruption, womanising and drug-taking.

Womanising and drug-taking? That sick bastard...

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Oh come on. Those are such ridiculous reasons for persecution and I wouldn't be surprised if most high-ranking officials in the government did that shit.

What's the real reason? Was he pushing for open-market reforms or something? I heard something about using money loaned to him by the DPRK in Chinese casinos and making shady deals with China-based companies, but not much else.

[servusmoderni]

I think it's because his uncle was trying to create a faction within the party. I think he just showed everyone he's the one in charge.

[Five Year Plan]

This is what happens when you retain Grover Furr as your legal counsel.

[Lensky]

About time they liquidated this capitalist roader.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

^^yeah he's the one that's been stopping north korea doing all that socialism n stuff...

[KurtFF8]

I predict that the rest of this thread will be quite informative, civil, and productive

[TheGodlessUtopian]

About time they liquidated this capitalist roader.

The entirety of the North Korean regime is a revisionist, capitalist-roader one. Taking this idea of yours further would simply amount to some capitalist-roaders liquidating others out of competition. I do not know of any Maoists (aside from yourself) whom (seemingly) uphold the North as an example of proper socialist practice as I know that the RIM took a stand against their policies as well as Kasama, in addition to a wide host of other organizations.

[Prometeo liberado]

This has to be the feel good thread of the year.
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4752026065438339&pid=1.9&m=&w=300&h=300&p=0

[AntiFascism]

This is a proper fate for counter-revolutionaries and capitalist roaders. Even China would not tolerate self-indulgences and opportunism committed by corrupt officials such as Jang Song Thaek who would've opened the DPRK up to Western imperialism, dismantled the DPRK's Juche socialist economic system, sold off industries to foreign investors, and eventually the DPRK would suffer the same fate of the German Democratic Republic!

Execution is fitting punishment for treason and counter-revolution, long live DPRK!

[Homo Songun]

The entirety of the North Korean regime is a revisionist, capitalist-roader one. Taking this idea of yours further would simply amount to some capitalist-roaders liquidating others out of competition. I do not know of any Maoists (aside from yourself) whom (seemingly) uphold the North as an example of proper socialist practice as I know that the RIM took a stand against their policies as well as Kasama, in addition to a wide host of other organizations.

Well, Kasama inherits the RCP's line wholesale on the DPRK. But the Nepali affiliate of the erstwhile RIM (UCPNM/CPNM) is quite supportive of the DPRK; as are other important Maoist parties, for example the CPP. So in reality it is Kasama's line that is an outlier here.

Personally, I believe this is just as much a product of alien class pressures on the communist movement in the imperialist centre (as well as plain old national chauvinism I am sorry to say) as it is a worked-out ideological position.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Well, Kasama inherits the RCP's line wholesale on the DPRK.

There are many different opinions in Kasama regarding the DPRK but specifically dealing with the Maoist sect I can say that no one (I know of) in Kasama considers North Korea a "legitimate socialist state" (if that is what you were getting at).


But the Nepali affiliate of the erstwhile RIM (UCPNM/CPNM) is quite supportive of the DPRK;

I am referring to the old RIM, not any recent splinter attempts to restart the group. However, to directly answer you: please post links to the point you are referring to so I may assess this support firsthand. (btw, the UCPNM is another revisionist organization, so one more they are not among the important revolutionary Maoist parties. In addition, the CPNM is the revolutionary splinter: they are not one in the same).


as are other important Maoist parties, for example the CPP. So in reality it is Kasama's line that is an outlier here.

The CCP is a revisionist (capitalist) organization. As an imperialist nation their opinion hardly counts towards the list of "important [revolutionary] maoist parties."

Also, I am curious what you describe as supportive: I say this because I think we might be operating on two different plains where "defending NK from Western imperialism" is equated with defending its policies as revolutionary. This is not my position.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

I think he was refering to the CCP, which actually although they defend north korea from a anti-imperialist perspective I've never see them refer to it as socialist. The UCPN-M views the DPRK as a socialist state but considering the political practice of the UCPN-M I don't think that strengthens your argument. The standard RIM line basically holds for the rest of the Marxist-Leninist-Maoist parties.

[Homo Songun]

There are many different opinions in Kasama regarding the DPRK but specifically dealing with the Maoist sect I can say that no one (I know of) in Kasama considers North Korea a "legitimate socialist state" (if that is what you were getting at).
Sure, but only one that matters :glare:



The CCP is a revisionist (capitalist) organization. As an imperialist nation their opinion hardly counts towards the list of "important [revolutionary] maoist parties."When I said 'CPP' I was referring to the Communist Party of the Philippines, which is ostensibly 'legit' by Kasama standards, last I checked.

But the main point I want to impress is that the mainstream Maoist view is not really the same as whatever Kasama or Avakian is thinking.

For examples just do a search of the forums/google, but here's a couple:

CPP describes Korea as socialist and Kim Jong Il as comrade:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1806180&postcount=19

CPN-M goes to Pyongyang:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1805449&postcount=1

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Sure, but only one that matters :glare:

The merits of how Kasama organizes its collectives is not the point of the current conversation.



When I said 'CPP' I was referring to the Communist Party of the Philippines, which is ostensibly 'legit' by Kasama standards, last I checked.

Ah, I read it as CCP. After so many acronyms and threads the ability to discern fades. Sorry. But yes, "legit" according to some (I have seen Maoists there both defending the CPP as well as denouncing it). There is no consensus.


But the main point I want to impress is that the mainstream Maoist view is not really the same as whatever Kasama or Avakian is thinking.

For examples just do a search of the forums/google, but here's a couple:

CPP describes Korea as socialist and Kim Jong Il as comrade:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1806180&postcount=19

CPN-M goes to Pyongyang:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1805449&postcount=1

Hmmm... there are some disconcerting views in both articles. Most prominently however is the date on both. Years old does not do a great deal for the present as much has happened in recent years. Because of this I do not feel the need to address the second link (the split and ideological changes as a result). If you provide more recent articles than much would be remedied in this regard. The first article, anyways, seems to be defending it more from a historical and anti-imperialist perspective, not so much from a "they are building socialism" type of thing; there was that Juche line but the focus appeared to be more on defending it from Western imperialism than an overt declaration of socialist construction. Nonetheless, even it is troublesome (though expected).

[Alexios]

Personally, I believe this is just as much a product of alien class pressures on the communist movement in the imperialist centre (as well as plain old national chauvinism I am sorry to say) as it is a worked-out ideological position.

If you actually opposed "imperialism" wouldn't you also oppose the DPRK on account of its relationship with China and Russia

[servusmoderni]

I don't think anyone is going to doubt he's the leader now...

[Sasha]

I don't think anyone is going to doubt he's the leader now...

There are actually many analysts who think this was an move inniated by hawkish anti-Kim factions in the military. I heard speculation that this could even be the start to a overthrow of the kims. But like always with north Korea its just all speculation and guesses I think. Only time will tell.

[Hrafn]

There are actually many analysts who think this was an move inniated by hawkish anti-Kim factions in the military. I heard speculation that this could even be the start to a overthrow of the kims. But like always with north Korea its just all speculation and guesses I think. Only time will tell.

A purely theoretical overthrow of the Kim dynasty from within would be... extremely interesting.

[Sasha]

The new bastards will be just like the old bastards, worst case scenario they will want to assert themselves and shit escalates with the south and many workers will die. Best case scenario the regime collapses, the north becomes a capitalist democracy instead of a semi-feudal capitalist dictatorship and at least the north Koreans get to get taken advantage of under wage slavery instead of worked to death under real slavery.

[Lensky]

The new bastards will be just like the old bastards, worst case scenario they will want to assert themselves and shit escalates with the south and many workers will die. Best case scenario the regime collapses, the north becomes a capitalist democracy instead of a semi-feudal capitalist dictatorship and at least the north Koreans get to get taken advantage of under wage slavery instead of worked to death under real slavery.

Can you please explain how North Korea is semi-feudal? I don't believe there are any nobles such as counts, dukes, or barons. I also don't believe that like India the DPRK forces its citizens into debt slavery.

[Logical seal]

What can I say bro, north koreas goverment is the asboulte worst, Of the worst, But like all tryants, They will fall, A democracy will be formed, And if we the left fali, then it will be chile all over again.

[Remus Bleys]

Can you please explain how North Korea is semi-feudal? I don't believe there are any nobles such as counts, dukes, or barons. I also don't believe that like India the DPRK forces its citizens into debt slavery.
by semi-feudal psycho probably means precapitalism.

marxism is too eurocentric in some of its analyses.

[DasFapital]

Maoist Rebel News and Harpal Brar have been named as his secessors

[Sasha]

Yeah, the lack of capitalism in the north is a lot less about socialism than its about under development.

[DasFapital]

Let us go to the source of the internet's best Marxist analysis:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6Cxsa3rfM0&feature=c4-overview&list=UUgr5cilTJPILaRYS7f_TkVA

[Remus Bleys]

What can I say bro, north koreas goverment is the asboulte worst, Of the worst, But like all tryants, They will fall, A democracy will be formed, And if we the left fali, then it will be chile all over again.

Oh great a bourgeois state will fall and be replaced with.... a bourgeois state!

[KurtFF8]

Best case scenario the regime collapses, the north becomes a capitalist democracy

Yes because that worked out so great for Eastern Europe...

[Sasha]

I wouldnt say, with maybe the exclusion of the DDR, that workers where so much better off under "socialism"

[Remus Bleys]

I wouldnt say, with maybe the exclusion of the DDR, that workers where so much better off under "socialism"
We shouldn't act as if a parliamentary republic would be better for the workers of North Korea than what they have now.

[preacherman]

In this case the official DPRK story is not so far fetched. The idea that an old well entrenched bureaucrat, with deep ties to the government, was attempting to launch a coup against a young upstart, who he felt was under his thumb seems plausible.

It could also be belated retaliation for his failed currency reform.

Its also plausible that this was like the killing of Joe Pesci in Goodfellas, an accumulation of stuff over time and some indecent just finally made the upper bosses say enough is enough.

[Sasha]

We shouldn't act as if a parliamentary republic would be better for the workers of North Korea than what they have now.

I think the people starving during the famines or the kids in gulag camps would disagree.

[Remus Bleys]

I think the people starving during the famines or the kids in gulag camps would disagree.Why would a switch to a parliamentary republic change that?

[Sasha]

Excluding a few anamolies like buthan (which is very unlikely that north-korea would turn in to) Life for most (!) workers is tangiably better the more society is like modern western liberal democacies, not that its good but on a lesser evil scale lets say 10% of the people dirt poor but not starving and acces to unions, "freedom" to organise and protest and " free" press is better than 99% of the people dirt poor and regularly starving under a policestate. Again i have no ilusion about the " blessings" of parlemetairy "democracy" but i also dont have the great satan delusions many on the left suffer from. Capitalism sucks and is the enemy and should be combatted in all forms, yet some forms are just worse than others, i for one would a whole lot more want to live in south korea than the north, just as i rather live here in the netherlands than the US.

[Remus Bleys]

Excluding a few anamolies like buthan (which is very unlikely that north-korea would turn in to) Life for most (!) workers is tangiably better the more society is like modern western liberal democacies, not that its good but on a lesser evil scale lets say 10% of the people dirt poor but not starving and acces to unions, "freedom" to organise and protest and " free" press is better than 99% of the people dirt poor and regularly starving under a policestate. Again i have no ilusion about the " blessings" of parlemetairy "democracy" but i also dont have the great satan delusions many on the left suffer from. Capitalism sucks and is the enemy and should be combatted in all forms, yet some forms are just worse than others, i for one would a whole lot more want to live in south korea than the north, just as i rather live here in the netherlands than the US.I see this more as a result that these nations are more industrialized and economically advanced than the way the bourgeoisie organizes itself in Western Europe.

[reb]

The entirety of the North Korean regime is a revisionist, capitalist-roader one. Taking this idea of yours further would simply amount to some capitalist-roaders liquidating others out of competition. I do not know of any Maoists (aside from yourself) whom (seemingly) uphold the North as an example of proper socialist practice as I know that the RIM took a stand against their policies as well as Kasama, in addition to a wide host of other organizations.

How can the North Korean regime be revisionist and a capitalist-roader if it was never composed of Marxists in the first place?

[Remus Bleys]

How can the North Korean regime be revisionist and a capitalist-roader if it was never composed of Marxists in the first place?
Doesn't revisionism also imply their is some traces of marxism still left in the regime anyway?

[reb]

Doesn't revisionism also imply their is some traces of marxism still left in the regime anyway?

According to our conspiracy loving idiot Ismail, it means that they're all evil hand wringing Stalin haters who just proclaim the great theory of marxism-leninism to undermine it. So yes, I guess, if only lip service.

[Tolstoy]

As if power stuggles are something only tied to capitalism.

Yeah OK, this does kind of suck on Kim Jong Un's part, but I dont think it points toward any great failure on the part of the DPRK

[Remus Bleys]

As if power stuggles are something only tied to capitalism.

Yeah OK, this does kind of suck on Kim Jong Un's part, but I dont think it points toward any great failure on the part of the DPRK
>Marxist-Leninist-Titoist-Castroist
>Socilaist Alternative
>Pro-DPRK
You seem really politically confused.

[KurtFF8]

I wouldnt say, with maybe the exclusion of the DDR, that workers where so much better off under "socialism"

You would be mistaken then. There isn't much debate, even amongst bourgeois historians and thinkers, that conditions were better for workers before the collapse of the Communist-led governments in the East.

[Tolstoy]

>Marxist-Leninist-Titoist-Castroist
>Socilaist Alternative
>Pro-DPRK
You seem really politically confused.

I actually do need to change that part about Socialist Alternative, I got fed up with them following my discovery that they support police unions.

My attitude towards the DPRK is tricky, I do not see them as capitalist roaders but definitely as a deformed workers state. It clearly has a number of issues but I still support its right to self determination.

Castroism and Titoism are less full positions of mine and more my way of stating how I find Cuba and SFR Yugoslavia to be ideal states

[Fourth Internationalist]

My attitude towards the DPRK is tricky, I do not see them as capitalist roaders but definitely as a deformed workers state.

Workers' states can only be created from proletarian revolution, which did not occur in Korea (and, in fact, that's exactly why it's "deformed").

[Tim Cornelis]

You would be mistaken then. There isn't much debate, even amongst bourgeois historians and thinkers, that conditions were better for workers before the collapse of the Communist-led governments in the East.

That's highly dubious. There was certainly a dramatic collapse of the standard of living, as indicated by the growth rates:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Eastern_bloc_economies_GDP_1990.jpg/797px-Eastern_bloc_economies_GDP_1990.jpg

But in some Eastern European countries, the growth rates recovered within ten years (above 1989 levels), and with it, to a considerable extend at least, the standard of living. Now (20 years later) it would seem most workers would be, generally, better off in liberal capitalism in the East.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I actually do need to change that part about Socialist Alternative, I got fed up with them following my discovery that they support police unions.

My attitude towards the DPRK is tricky, I do not see them as capitalist roaders but definitely as a deformed workers state. It clearly has a number of issues but I still support its right to self determination.

Castroism and Titoism are less full positions of mine and more my way of stating how I find Cuba and SFR Yugoslavia to be ideal states

I lolololove how some "leftists" are shocked - outraged - that some Leftist group in the US or Europe seems too soft on cops, so they join up with a group that supports regimes with corrupt, violent police forces.

[Lensky]

That's highly dubious. There was certainly a dramatic collapse of the standard of living, as indicated by the growth rates:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Eastern_bloc_economies_GDP_1990.jpg/797px-Eastern_bloc_economies_GDP_1990.jpg

But in some Eastern European countries, the growth rates recovered within ten years (above 1989 levels), and with it, to a considerable extend at least, the standard of living. Now (20 years later) it would seem most workers would be, generally, better off in liberal capitalism in the East.

I am from Poland, a supposed success story. Life is shit. There are no jobs, everyone has left or is trying to leave the country.

[Fourth Internationalist]

I am from Poland, a supposed success story. Life is shit. There are no jobs, everyone has left or is trying to leave the country.

I don't think they were trying to argue that it is all good now in the East. After all, it is still capitalism. Unless your point is just in general against the bourgeois propaganda saying it's all good, then never mind. I can't tell which you mean.

[Lensky]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6Cxsa3rfM0 thank you Jason

[Fourth Internationalist]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6Cxsa3rfM0 thank you Jason

Oh god, not MRN... :(. Seriously?

[KurtFF8]

That's highly dubious. There was certainly a dramatic collapse of the standard of living, as indicated by the growth rates:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Eastern_bloc_economies_GDP_1990.jpg/797px-Eastern_bloc_economies_GDP_1990.jpg

But in some Eastern European countries, the growth rates recovered within ten years (above 1989 levels), and with it, to a considerable extend at least, the standard of living. Now (20 years later) it would seem most workers would be, generally, better off in liberal capitalism in the East.

Where is that graph from exactly?

Also it's interesting that it only goes to 2002, when some scholars have noted that the world financial crisis seriously threatened these gains.

And with the EU being quite austerity happy, I wouldn't be surprised to see another downturn in the post 2002 period here.

[Prometeo liberado]

I'm pretty sure that Stalin was behind this. Pretty sure.

"Jang's execution has 'echoes of Stalin, ' said Korean expert Daniel Snyder at Stanford University. "
From the weekend issue of the always groundbreaking USA Today.
Told you so.

[Full Metal Bolshevik]

You would be mistaken then. There isn't much debate, even amongst bourgeois historians and thinkers, that conditions were better for workers before the collapse of the Communist-led governments in the East.
Do you have sources or statistics to prove that?


That's highly dubious. There was certainly a dramatic collapse of the standard of living, as indicated by the growth rates:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/11/Eastern_bloc_economies_GDP_1990.jpg/797px-Eastern_bloc_economies_GDP_1990.jpg

But in some Eastern European countries, the growth rates recovered within ten years (above 1989 levels), and with it, to a considerable extend at least, the standard of living. Now (20 years later) it would seem most workers would be, generally, better off in liberal capitalism in the East.
That graph doesn't tell much.
Besides, before the colapse, the standard of living was rising, so you can't really take many conclusions with just that graph.

[Per Levy]

I actually do need to change that part about Socialist Alternative, I got fed up with them following my discovery that they support police unions.

My attitude towards the DPRK is tricky, I do not see them as capitalist roaders but definitely as a deformed workers state. It clearly has a number of issues but I still support its right to self determination.

Castroism and Titoism are less full positions of mine and more my way of stating how I find Cuba and SFR Yugoslavia to be ideal states

from a supporter of SAlt and the sawant campaign to a sympathizer of wwp in a couple of weeks? quite an impressive feat. may marcysim be strong with you. also funny that you are against police unions and partys who support those(wich is good) to supporting police states. also what was "ideal" about cuba and yugoslavia?

[Sasha]

I am from Poland, a supposed success story. Life is shit. There are no jobs, everyone has left or is trying to leave the country.


sure, life sucks, i have been to poland, i have many friends from poland that are here for good reasons, though, and i suppose i'm a bit older than you and so are my friends, they can remember living behind the ironcurtain and most are still happy that "communism" fell. not because its so good now and it was that horrible then but how it would likely now be if it didnt happen. it wasnt that there was anything remotely socialist about it anymore, the choice wasnt between vulture capitalism and the DDR in the 60's, the choice was between vulture capitalism and hopefully in time some functioning social democracy and at best what belarus is today.
i remember shit like this coming out on TV for the first time: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4630855.stm
and yes i know romania was pretty much the worsed of the worse of the east block and it would be unfair to project that on say poland but this thread is originally about north-korea and the situation seems to be at least as bad there, maybe even whole lot worse

[G4b3n]

Surely Chang Song-thaek and Stalin were conspiring to overthrow the state and install and even more brutal and violent regime.

[KurtFF8]

Do you have sources or statistics to prove that?

I'm genuinely surprised that this is even being asked on this website. For example, in the 1990s the economic catastrophes in those countries were on par with the Great Depression of the 1930s. Much of the growth since is simply compared to that era. Although the graph posted above demonstrates that they were starting to catch up to the socialist era, the great financial crisis has certainly threatened that perceived capitalist stability.


Anyway I'm not really sure what sources or "proof" you're looking for here.

[Alexios]

If you actually think you can compare the DPRK with any of the former Eastern Bloc countries, even the most poor ones, then you are an idiot

[KurtFF8]

If you actually think you can compare the DPRK with any of the former Eastern Bloc countries, even the most poor ones, then you are an idiot

This post contributed quite a bit to this discussion.

[Ismail]

According to our conspiracy loving idiot Ismail, it means that they're all evil hand wringing Stalin haters who just proclaim the great theory of marxism-leninism to undermine it. So yes, I guess, if only lip service.I don't know why you feel the need to randomly name-drop me.

Anyway, revisionism means to distort the content of Marxism to deprive it of its revolutionary and scientific character. The WPK does nominally adhere to Marxism even though they theoretically hold that Juche is superior to it in some way. If you were to read economic journals and whatnot from the DPRK they do use Marxist analyses, obviously not in a profound or sincere way. Even the bevy of denunciations against Jang include cliché communist terms. And seeing as how, among other things, the DPRK upholds states like China and Cuba as socialist, not to mention the metaphysical content of Juche, I'd say that it is correct to call its ideology revisionist.

As for Jang himself, this is what I wrote a few days ago elsewhere:

To be fair, most of the actual charges against Jang were that he was exceptionally corrupt and that he was confronted with this fact various times in the past. Corruption is a big problem in the DPRK and Jang is identified by Western analysts as having been a "pro-market" figure, meaning that it's quite likely he wanted to liberalize trade and other rules to legitimize the illicit profits he was already making.

Of course this doesn't mean those denouncing him aren't corrupt themselves.The outcry in the West, plus China's guarded comments about the affair, make it pretty clear that Jang wasn't a "hardliner" as far as economics and politics went.