Fascists topple Lenin statue in Ukraine.

[Comrade Jacob]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAhfS9R1Kvg

This boils my blood.

EDIT: Ok I now know more about this, this wasn't necessary an anti-"communist" but just an anti-Russian-oppression act.

[Czy]

That statue is a symbol of oppression for those people, Jacob.

Get your act together. This isn't an act against "communism" but oppression.

[Czy]

That statue has nothing to do with lenin's arguments set forth in State and Revolution, I can assure you that.

Have you ever thought that the statue represents Russian influence?

[Comrade Jacob]

That statue is a symbol of oppression for those people, Jacob.

Get your act together. This isn't an act against "communism" but oppression.

They are far-right and want to join the EU. How is that not oppression? They hate him because he was a revolutionary.

[Ele'ill]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/ukraine-eu-protests-t185505/index.html?t=185505&highlight=ukraine

[Fourth Internationalist]

People weren't really protesting Lenin as a Marxist revolutionary but rather as a symbol of Russia. Not exactly anything to do with anti-Marxism.

[Zukunftsmusik]

I have yet to see proof that these protesters are "fascist" (though they very well might be). It's not like the established Communist party's response to the protests is any better (see the thread in Mari3L's link), cheering on police violence and what's worse. I don't see how someone toppling down a Lenin statue is something worth letting your blood boil over. It's not really surprising, with the legacy attached to it. I guess it's just stalinists shedding tears over dead great men as usual.

[reb]

You cry about statues being pulled down but don't say anything about leftist rape apologism. Either dedicate your life to worshiping fallen idols in Grutas Park or get your fucking act together.

[Per Levy]

This boils my blood.

the rape of 2 millionen women didnt boil your blood appearantly. but a fallen statue does, priorities i guess. that lenin stature was probally vital for class struggle i guess.

[reb]

They are far-right and want to join the EU. How is that not oppression? They hate him because he was a revolutionary.

And I guess that you're OK with the "far-left" attaching an overtly homophobic and racist tone to their anti-Eu protests?

[Brotto Rühle]

If something like this boils your blood, you must have been super enraged to hear of the formation of revolutionary workers councils in 1953 East Germany, and 1956 Hungary. How dare anyone challenge the soviet ideology and its messiahs. I mean, I just don't understand why the toppling of a statue can "boil" somebody's blood.

[Per Levy]

They are far-right and want to join the EU. How is that not oppression? They hate him because he was a revolutionary.

well the "communist " response was something like that:

" Later, Communist Party MP Antonina Khromova made statements at the Donetsk regional council, approving the use of force to remove protesters in Kiev, which was met with applause. She continued by saying that Ukraine does not need European values, namely, "same-sex marriage" and "African pan handlers".[225]"

lenin would be proud.

[Czy]

This thread has confirmed some things for me:

Stalinists will

1. Always side against anti-russian protesters (here pro-EU protesters are painted 'fascist')

2. Continue espousing great man theory regardless of circumstance

3. Fail to understand in-built dynamics of situations and rather let pre-determined views guide them through every situation (as evidenced by the outright ignorance to the fact that Ukraine is split between a pro-EU west and pro-Russian east).

Both pro-Russian and pro-EU movements are bourgeois movements so why support either side. Oh and stop with this Soviet reminiscence jerkoff, it just confirms my view that every stalinist is a supporter of hierarchy. This 'hooliganism' should be encouraged, let's smash the capitalist state not diddle about this bs

Let me guess, anti-russian protesters are hooligans right?

[Comrade Jacob]

the rape of 2 millionen women didnt boil your blood appearantly. but a fallen statue does, priorities i guess. that lenin stature was probally vital for class struggle i guess.

I said that I didn't agree with his opinion, I didn't get worked up because we were friends and that was very liberal of me and I should have shot him down instead of come to his defence with "oh he speaks a different language" bullshit. I agree that was wrong of me. Rape does get me very angry!
No Lenin's statue isn't vital.

This thread was originally meant as a simple showcasing of the event.

[IBleedRed]

It may be true that the toppling of the Lenin statue is just the consequence of resentment over Russian imperialism, but unfortunately for us leftists, Russian imperialism is very closely linked with communism/socialism and Marxist thought in the eyes of the typical anti-Russian Ukrainian. So, it isn't a good sign to see a Lenin statue toppled.

[Comrade Jacob]

And I guess that you're OK with the "far-left" attaching an overtly homophobic and racist tone to their anti-Eu protests?

What?

[Logical seal]

Un-educated idiots, What Can I say?

[hatzel]

I didn't get worked up because we were friends and that was very liberal of me

What's specifically liberal about that? Are you just saying random words?

[Zukunftsmusik]

What?

Per Levy has already posted the relevant quote from the Wikipedia article on the protests:


well the "communist " response was something like that:

" Later, Communist Party MP Antonina Khromova made statements at the Donetsk regional council, approving the use of force to remove protesters in Kiev, which was met with applause. She continued by saying that Ukraine does not need European values, namely, "same-sex marriage" and "African pan handlers".[225]"

[Comrade Jacob]

What's specifically liberal about that? Are you just saying random words?

"To let things slide for the sake of peace and friendship when a person has clearly gone wrong, and refrain from principled argument because he is an old acquaintance, a fellow townsman, a schoolmate, a close friend, a loved one, an old colleague or old subordinate. Or to touch on the matter lightly instead of going into it thoroughly, so as to keep on good terms. The result is that both the organization and the individual are harmed. This is one type of liberalism." - Mao Tse-Tung (Combat Liberalism)

[Comrade Jacob]

Per Levy has already posted the relevant quote from the Wikipedia article on the protests:

Ok, I must've missed that, thanks.

[WilliamGreen]

Everyone has said the answer over and over

Most of these people have no idea who lenin is or the ideas of that movement. It's an act against Russia and the perceived idea of oppression.

Little do they know the west doesn't have much else for them, it's oppression no matter where you go or who you ally with.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAhfS9R1Kvg

This boils my blood.

EDIT: Ok I now know more about this, this wasn't necessary an anti-"communist" but just an anti-Russian-oppression act.

I'm sure it does.

Also, not every communist agrees with Lenin.

[consuming negativity]

So basically there's no evidence that any fascists at all were involved in the toppling of the statue of great eternal supreme comrade leader Lenin? This is like the third place where I've heard people mourning the loss of this stupid statue. Who gives a shit?

[IBleedRed]

So basically there's no evidence that any fascists at all were involved in the toppling of the statue of great eternal supreme comrade leader Lenin? This is like the third place where I've heard people mourning the loss of this stupid statue. Who gives a shit?

It's an indication that the people of these regions are hostile to socialist thought. It might be true that they're simply expressing "anti-Russian sentiment", but as I said earlier, this sentiment is invariably linked to anti-socialist sentiment regardless of whether or not the USSR was an example of socialism. It is not a good omen for our chances in Eastern Europe that countries such as the Ukraine and Poland are scrambling to try to appease the capitalist powers.

[Remus Bleys]

It's an indication that the people of these regions are hostile to socialist thought. It might be true that they're simply expressing "anti-Russian sentiment", but as I said earlier, this sentiment is invariably linked to anti-socialist sentiment regardless of whether or not the USSR was an example of socialism. It is not a good omen for our chances in Eastern Europe that countries such as the Ukraine and Poland are scrambling to try to appease the capitalist powers.
As compared to appeasing the Russian capitalist power?
Is the west the only capitalist now?

This post makes no sense at all.

[servusmoderni]

The Soviet Union built Ukraine.


By the way, the protest was organized by a party that was once named "The National-Socialist Party of Ukraine." Anyone who's at least informed knows that crap is a EU-US propaganda. It makes me think a lot when the Iraqis tore Saddam's statue down. They regret it now, their country now looks like hell.

These Ukrainians are begging for their country to be raped and pillaged by the European Union.

[consuming negativity]

It's an indication that the people of these regions are hostile to socialist thought. It might be true that they're simply expressing "anti-Russian sentiment", but as I said earlier, this sentiment is invariably linked to anti-socialist sentiment regardless of whether or not the USSR was an example of socialism. It is not a good omen for our chances in Eastern Europe that countries such as the Ukraine and Poland are scrambling to try to appease the capitalist powers.

The USSR doesn't exist anymore and Russia is also a capitalist country; what the USSR was or was not is irrelevant.

Besides, if the "communists" in the Ukraine are actually homophobic and racist, I can't really blame the Ukrainians for wanting no parts of that. Sure, it says something about the state of the left in the Ukraine - that there apparently isn't much of one at all when Lenin has been reduced to a nationalist figure for a capitalist state. But it is hardly symbolic of any rejection of actual communist theories.

[LeftwingerIndia]

Ukrainian pro EU right wingers demolish Lenin's statue in Kiev. Whats wrong with these fools , I don't understand why they are so much desperate to join the dying European Union.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

And I guess that you're OK with the "far-left" attaching an overtly homophobic and racist tone to their anti-Eu protests?

It's not like the the pro-Eu protesters and parties are any better. At best there's groups like the filthy right-wing "Socially liberal, politically conservative" ODAR, and at worst there are fascistic racist scum.

And seriously? Protesting for annexation by the EU - NATO integrationists - is 'fighting oppression'? You fucking guys, never change. :laugh:

[Sea]

Can't we just accept that they're all full of shit?

I mean, it's not like they were trying to make holodomor a national holiday, lol.

[Sasha]

while extreme-right hooligans certainly have been involved with these protests the title and location of this thread is really misleading, therefor; moved to politics

[Czy]

And seriously? Protesting for annexation by the EU - NATO integrationists - is 'fighting oppression'? You fucking guys, never change

I think you missed the point.

Both the pro-EU and pro-Russia protests are bourgeois movements. We should not side with either. However, it is totally understandable that a Lenin statue would be ripped down. He represents Russian influence and dominance, and his image has nothing to do with far-left politics for those people. This was worth noting considering the OP initially branded those that destroyed the statue 'fascist', which is absurd.

[Sasha]

Ukraine: what's going on, and what does it mean?


http://www.libcom.org/files/imagecache/article/images/blog/Ukraine-protest.jpg (http://www.libcom.org/files/images/blog/Ukraine-protest.jpg)


Some thoughts on the protests happening in Ukraine. Things are not completely what they may seem.



The mass protests unfolding in Ukraine are raising a few eyebrows here and there, as well as the usual hyped-up talk of people's revolt and even revolution. The eyebrows are justified. Mass demonstrations of many hundreds of thousands in the winter cold, people blockading government buildings, attacking a presidential palace and occupying the city government office, calls for president and government to resign, talk of a general strike...all in support of closer ties to the EU? It all seems a bit odd. Add to the strange brew a strong element of extreme nationalism, and the picture of a movement that is right wing, reactionary and unsupportable from a radical, libertarian communist point of view becomes even clearer. What has been going on? I think there are at least three elements to all this.
First, there is a cleavage among the political elites of Ukraine. Yanukovych, the current president and his government are based in the East of the country, where the big but ecomomically obsolete factories and mining areas are. People in this area generally speak Russian, not Ukrainian (Yanukovych himself only learned Ukrainian as an adult, for career reasons). The business class in these areas is oriented to Russia, politicians like Yanukovych see the Ukrainian-Russian relationship as vital. In the West, where people speak Ukrainian, elites are much more oriented towards the EU. They hope for investment opportunities and business ties. The Ukrainian state balances between these twee oprions, with the current regime generally leaning more to Russia, but not entirely closing off the road to Brussels.
Now, there was a trade deal being prepared between Ukraine and the EU. At the last moment, Yanukovych rejected the bill. Because of Russian pressure, partly, but also because in Yanukovych' eyes, the price was not right: he is haggling for more financial support. The treaty itself, according to a cheerful explanation on Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty (http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-association-agreement-explained/25181835.html), was mainly about trade liberalization and making Ukrainian law conform to EU regulations. The trade liberalization consisted of skipping EU import duties for Ukrainian exports within seven years, and skipping Ukrainian import duties for EU exports within ten years. This would mean trade opportunities for Ukrainian business oriented to the West. Here lies a likely reason for the anger among right wing politicians rooted in pro-western business circles when Yanukovych skipped the deal: they may well have felt robbed of lucrative opportunities. According to some research, Ukrainian GDP was supposed to grow “more than six per cent over the next decade”, because of this trade liberalization. Better still: “increased competition would bring prices down, fuelling an increase in household consumption percent over 10 years”. Of course, this leaves out another effect of increased competition. As soon as EU companies can freely export to Ukraine, many Ukrainian companies will become outdated and be forced to close or raise productivity, laying off workers. What will rise may not be household consumption, but wholesale unemployment. That is not mentioned in the RFE/ RL piece.
The treaty can be seen as a part of a broader pattrern of EU-Ukraine economic relations. The deal itself did not promise enormous credits. But earlier agreements did. Ukraine received a EY grant of 1 billion euro in 2011, and may get another grant of 600 million, “if Kyiv strikes a deal on a $ 15 billion loan with the International Monetary Fund (IMF)”, according to the already-mentioned RFE/RL article. I don t'know what the conditions of that loan will be, but I can guess. With these kind of deals, austerity, Greek-style, will come to Ukraine, already a land of poverty. And there is more. “If Ukraine throws its lot with the EU, it will have to pay the full market price for gas (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/01/optimistic-young-ukrainians-europe-russian-power), losing the concessionary rate enjoyed at present.” (Marina Lewycka, Guardian, 1 December). That concessionay rate – meaning a lower gas price - is a product of the Russian-Ukrainian ties for Russia is Ukraine's source of gas. Losing that advantage means higher gas bills, for both households and enterprises. So much for boosting household consumption.
Yanukovych and his pals probably wanted the deal off until they get a better deal, because they see their proteced business interests threatened by competition from the EU, by higher energy prices and maybe also by mass anger against EU-style austerity when it comes. And he and his pals have something to defend. “Yanukovych has led the country to the brink of financial collapse as his coterie and his financial backers grow insanely and obscenely rich (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/01/ukrainian-protests-european-union-hope)”(Ian Traynor, Guardian, 1 December 2013, ) The man himself is a “very wealthy man with a a large estate outside of Kiev” (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/02/viktor-yanukovych-ukraine-protests-orange), according to another Guardian piece by the same writer. Where did his wealth come from? Not from heritage, for he was from a rather poor background. Politics-as-business, also known as corroption, may be the name of the game. He and his friends have much to loose, and beyond this, they feel pressurized by Russia, the big gas exporter, former imperial overlord and strong neighbour. The Yakunovych wing of the ruling class, with its entrenched interests and geopolitical ties, and with their armies of riot cops, are no pushover.
So there we have it. Entrenched power-holders, filthily rich and well-connected with Russia, and with armefd force available, on the one hand; strong EU-oriented business and political interestst interests on the other. Modernized austerity as an alternative to traditional corrupt business as usial. Not much to choose there. This is an intra-business conflict, in which the pro-EU wing of the ruling class succeeds in raising an impressive stage army of protesters. There is no reason whatsoever for the taking of sides here.
But then, the riddle begins. One can imagine opposition politicians mobilizing their supporters, in their thousands and in their tens of thousands. But in the last few days, we hear about hundreds of thousands in the capital Kiev alone. Half a million people in the cold streets, confronting riot cops and cold winds and snow, just because they would rather be exploited from Brussel-oriented business than from Moscow-oriented business? People barricading streets, blockading and occupyingh buildings becuase the prefer EU austerity above old-school corruption? It does not sound plausible. It does not make sense. There are more factors at play.
Not the whole movement consists of of supporters of the traditional opposition parties. There is a strong, student-based movement that tries to keep all politicians at a distance. Here is how Marina Lewycka, already quoted, describes it: “For the young people in the square, this whole game of political tit-for-tat is what they reject.” One of the places these wing of the movement appartently gets inspiration from is the Occupy movement, according to Claire Biggs who explains on 25 November: “Unlike the Orange Revolution, the current protests are divided into two separate rallies (http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-new-orange-revolution/25179851.html) – one by young nonpartisan activists inspired by the Occupy movement, the second, concentrated on another Kyiv square, by political parties.” Now, the Occupy movement, whatever its failings, was not a very pro-EU movement, as people may recall. It was not a very pro-business movement either. Claire Biggs, 27 November on RFE/ RL : “The demonstrations have brought to the forefront a new generation of protesters (http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-protests-generational-divide/25182439.html) that grew up in an independent Ukraine and have few – if any – memories of the Soviet Union. They see themselves as Europeans, they are disillusioned with politics-as-usual, and they feel increasingly at odds with establishment opposition figures.”
Here, the story gets interesting. These young people may function – 'objectively speaking', to use some old-fashioned jargon - as a stage army for the opposition. But they don 't see themselves that way, and there is no guarantee that they will behave that way. People assembled in mass protests day after day – for whatever reason - tend to gain in self-confidence, may start to develop ideas of their own, and may get into the habit of acting upon them.. And there is tension between these kind of protesters and the more traditional political opposition. “So far, most of the opposition leaders have refused to heed students' requests to get rid of party symbols.” One side demands, another side does not comply. This is a recipe for people taking a direction that opposition politicians do not like.
As we already saw, there are not one, but two centres of assembly, one for the traditional parties, one for the younger, Occupy-style protesters. On the latter, we read interesting things: “Coordinating committees have been set up, with volunteers distributing blankets, food, and warm clothes donated by supporters. In Kyiv, the coordinating committee also organizes pribate accomodation for demonstrators travelling from other cities.” This is in no sense an anti-capitalist movement, and I have not seen any signs of workers in action for demands of their own. Yes, there have been a calls for a general strike. But one such call was put forward by “the regional authorities” (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/02/kiev-anti-government-protesters-viktor-yanukovych) in and around Lviv, according to Shaun Walker in the the Guardian on 1 December. Now, Lviv is a city in the West of the country where tthe opposition is strong. So this is probably a call by the party political opposition. This means that the action may be general, but not an workers' strike in an serious sense. So, no, no independent workers' role to be seen. But there is that odd bit of horizontal practice, that do-it-yourself-attitude, that characterizes radical movements, combined with the most un-radical political ideas. It is a weird mixture. But clearly, the domination of pro-business, pro-EU right wing politicians is not at all complete.
Of course, the pro-European attitude of even the Occupy-style activists is weird and misplaced. The EU is not the paradise of liberty and modernity that demonstrators may believe it to be. Roma persecuted in France and elsewhere, refugees detained and deported or being left to drown in the Mediterranean, anti-austerity protestors and antifascists being beaten back by riot police in city after city... all these people could tell a story or two of liberty, EU style. If Ukraine ever becomes a EY country, it will not look like Germany. It may look like Spain, or Greece.. Or like Slovenia, where there has been a strong movement against austerity already. 'Europe', for the Ukraine protesters, functions as a kind of myth, juist like the Soviet Union functioned as a myth for too many radicals in the Nineteen Thirties, just like Cuba and China functioned as myths in the Sixties and Nicaragua in the Eighties. We should expose the lies behind the myth; but we should also be able to notice what is behind the attraction of the myth: a desire for freedom, a rejection of politics-Yanukovych-style. The desire and the rejection itself are fully justified; but the political expression in a pro-EU-direction is reactionary.
What makes the developments more negative is the role of Ukrainian nationalism. For behind the pro-European expressions lies not only a desire for freedom. It is also a way of saying no to anything that smacks of Russia. 'We belong to Europe' is a way of saying 'We refuse to belong to Russia, its sphere of influence, its tradition'. Now, Russia has been the imperial overlord of Ukraine, both under the Czar and in the time of the Soviet Union. People have not forgotten the hunger in the Nineteen Thirties, in which people felt that Stalin led people starve both because they were peasants standing in the way of collectivization and because they were Ukrainians standing in the way of Russian domination. People have good reasons d to remember Russia's role as a destructive, oppressive force.
But Ukrainian nationalists exploit this feeling to turn it into anti-Russian chauvinism. As if Russian-language people in Ukraine are the problem. This anti-Russian chauvinism is part of an Ukrainian nationalist tradition with a very ugly past, with episodes like a proto-Nazi regime in 1919 led by pogromist Petlyura, and like the extensive collaboration in Ukraine with the actual Nazis during the Secondf World War as examples. This nationalism is not dead.
Extreme right wing forces play a prominent part in the protests in recent weeks. There has been the effort to storm the presidential palace, using a bulldozer. Before we gasp too much in admiration, some information on participants may be useful. A certain Dmytro Korchinsky has been seen among the crowd, according to several people. Korchinsky heads a group called Brastvo (Brotherhood), “a political organization that describes its ideology as 'Christian Orthodox national-anarchism'”. Nothing truly anarchist, of course, about a mixture of power-abiding Orthodoxy and extreme nationalism. This is clearly a fascist group, and it may have played a role in the effort to storm the building. The occupation of the city government building has been done by the Svoboda (Freedom) party, a nationalist organization led by Oleh Tyahnbok. This person “has called for a visa regime with Russia and argued against the introduction of Russian as a second state language”. I use for this information an overview by Daisy Sindelar of the main protagonists in the protest movement (http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine-euromaydan-protests-profiles/25187534.html) on the RFE/ RL website, a Cold War, pro-Western information source that nevertheless is very informative, if used with care. By the way, Tyahnbok is also accused of anti-Semitism, another reactionary tradition that is not exactly dead in Ukraine.
So there we have it: a combination of three things. An inter-elite struggle between a pro-Russian faction and a pro-EU faction, the latter bringing out its supporters on the street, the former mainly – but not exclusively: there have been pro-Yanuchevych demonstrations) supporting itself by repression and bureuacratic rule. A youth revolt, expressing its anger and desires through a pro-European discourse; but with bits of horizontal and radical practices that point in an entirely different direction. An extremely reactionary eruption of anti-Russian chauvinism and generally nationalist politics, with bits of fascism clearly apparent. On the whole, a rather right wing revolt against a reactionary regime. But within the revolt, there are contradictions. It would not be the first time that an elite struggle, a manipulated, stage-managed power struggle, escaped elite control. Things may get out of hand, and there is no telling yet which way.
Peter Storm



source: http://www.libcom.org/blog/ukraine-whats-going-what-does-it-mean-03122013

[NOT Stalinist Speaker]

the rape of 2 millionen women didnt boil your blood appearantly. but a fallen statue does, priorities i guess. that lenin stature was probally vital for class struggle i guess.

i think you misunderstood what he said.

[G4b3n]

Not everyone who does something that we might be opposed to is a fascist. Lenin may represent solidarity to some of us but to others he represents the imperialism carried out by his successors.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

The Soviet Union built Ukraine.


By the way, the protest was organized by a party that was once named "The National-Socialist Party of Ukraine." Anyone who's at least informed knows that crap is a EU-US propaganda. It makes me think a lot when the Iraqis tore Saddam's statue down. They regret it now, their country now looks like hell.

These Ukrainians are begging for their country to be raped and pillaged by the European Union.

I know a lot of Iraqis and I've never heard one say they wish Saddam could come back. They wish the US hadn't invaded or that the sectarians hadn't helped rip the country apart but no one misses that bloodsucker.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I think you missed the point.


I missed no point. You claimed that these people were 'fighting oppression' by swapping the 'symbolic Russian domination' of a Lenin statue for the European Union and NATO, under the guise of the right-wing* protesters 'shattering their chains' (*show me ONE TRUE leftwing party in support of EU integration - not Ukrainian liberal neolibs - but actual leftwing groups involved, and I will change this. So far it has just been US emulators and nazis). I say that if you believe this, then you are either a jingoist for the US or a complete moron.


Both the pro-EU and pro-Russia protests are bourgeois movements. We should not side with either.

What an easy way of avoiding in-depth discussion. Claim neutrality in a scenario that clearly does not warrant it.



This was worth noting considering the OP initially branded those that destroyed the statue 'fascist', which is absurd.

Actually, contrary to your belief, quite a lot of far-rightists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Ukrainian_Union_%22Svoboda%22) - not irrelevant sects, but openly fascist parties that have about thirty seats or so - are involved in the NATO integration protests, and many more are right (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Ukrainian_Union_%22Fatherland%22)-wing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_party_of_ukraine) filth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Democratic_Alliance_for_Reform) parading as progressives, much like the Democrats in America. They were also involved in the tearing down of Lenin statues, so the OP isn't really even half wrong.

EDIT:

Well, what do you know? The OP wasn't just not half-wrong - he was full correct!

http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-opposition-plans-biggest-protest-since-2004-022757930.html




In a hugely symbolic denouement to the rally, dozens of masked protesters, some brandishing flags of the ultra-nationalist Svoboda (Freedom) party, tore down a 3.4 metre (11 feet) high statue of Lenin after putting a rope noose round his neck.

What was that again about absurdity? Fucking idiots.

[Tolstoy]

While I am skeptical of both sides in this dispute, we should keep in mind that the Communist Party of Ukraine is part of the majority coalition that runs the Ukranian Palrliament, whereas the protestors largely represent right to far right Ukranian Nationalists.

Still, Russophilia is a deeply troubling trend and I prefer the EU to the current Russian Federation. While its easy to namecall both sides in this dispute as "Fascists", we should keep in mind that outside the US prison industrial complex, the biggest Fascist in the world is Vladmir Putin, something one can see with his Neo-Czarism, his stirring up hatered for immigrants and homosexuals and his instituting a flat tax in Russia

[servusmoderni]

I know a lot of Iraqis and I've never heard one say they wish Saddam could come back. They wish the US hadn't invaded or that the sectarians hadn't helped rip the country apart but no one misses that bloodsucker.
I never said they missed Saddam, they just miss when it was peace.

[Czy]

I missed no point. You claimed that these people were 'fighting oppression' by swapping the Russian domination of a Lenin for the European Union and NATO

False. How you infer this from what's been posted is beyond me. I never said they were correct for supporting the EU and NATO; I was merely explaining their actions: they perceive Lenin to be a statue of Russian influence and dominance, so obviously they're going to tear it down. He isn't a symbol of far-left politics, that's the point. Case in point: the Ukrainian communist party's response to the situation.


What an easy way of avoiding in-depth discussion. Claim neutrality in a scenario that clearly does not warrant it.

I'm just gonna respond with Q's quote from the other thread which succinctly articulates what I'm trying to say:


I think the left is missing the point with framing it like "pro-EU" versus "anti-EU". The question we ought to be asking is "is the European working class stronger in a united or divided manner?" and asking the question is answering it.

So, instead of being anti-EU (and therefore be pro-nationalist or pro-some-other-imperialist-bloc like Russia) the left should be putting forward the question of democracy on a continental level. We shouldn't be saying "less Brussels", but "ok, we want more unity, but we want a Europe of the common people, a Europe of the majority, we want a European Democratic Republic". This in turn would immensely strengthen our class against capital and, for that reason, the bourgeoisie will oppose full unification in this manner.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

He isn't a symbol of far-left politics, that's the point.


And the protesters are not simply apolitical Ukrainians fighting for national liberation from big bad Russia, either. As you will see from my last post, the opinion Comrade Jacob has held in this thread on the nature of the people who destroyed the Lenin statue wasn't so 'absurd' after all.


Case in point: the Ukrainian communist party's response to the situation

The Ukrainian Communist Party are nostalgic reactionaries. Of course they are going to wail once a Lenin statue crumbles. This does not change the political nature of the protesters who are destroying the statue and rioting against the government.


How you infer this from what's been posted is beyond me. I never said they were correct for supporting the EU and NATO; I was merely explaining their actions: they perceive Lenin to be a statue of Russian influence and dominance, so obviously they're going to tear it down.



:laugh:

So now they are not fighting Russian oppression, but perceiving themselves as doing so? Do you ever make sense?

Anyway, the hypothesis you have made in juxtaposition to Jacob's has already been eloquently terminated by the news that the people involved in the destruction of the statue were all politically aware right-wing groups, a large portion of which were fascists.



I'm just gonna respond with Q's quote from the other thread which succinctly articulates what I'm trying to say:

So in short a very vague commentary on events, and unspoken elevation of EU integration (being anti-EU = lapdog for Russian imperialism!) for an increased chance of a Europe-wide proletarian movement? If that's what you are trying to say then I wholeheartedly disagree with your lopsided pragmatism. The only thing that will come out of a pro-EU change of government is the continuing spread of American influence Eastward and more free-trade agreements for Germany.

[reb]

It's not like the the pro-Eu protesters and parties are any better. At best there's groups like the filthy right-wing "Socially liberal, politically conservative" ODAR, and at worst there are fascistic racist scum.

And seriously? Protesting for annexation by the EU - NATO integrationists - is 'fighting oppression'? You fucking guys, never change. :laugh:

Did I say they were better? At least when the far right goes around being racist people expect it, but when the left does it I guess it's OK then? I assume that you don't understand Ukrainian because some of the stuff that the left have on their banners is truly disgusting but you wouldn't be approving of that just because they're anti-EU, right?

[Queen Mab]

I warned you guys. I fucking warned you all

[Rss]

I'm bloody amazed at this "lol they don't even know who lenin is" cop-out defense of openly right-wing (and in some cases, openly fascist) protestors. Just, wow.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Does it matter if they know who he is or not? Either way the statue is knocked over and it's influence over the class struggle has come to an end. Truly horrifying, RIP concrete rendering of some dead guy.

[LeftwingerIndia]

They can only topple comrade Lenin's statute but they cant remove him from ours hearts

[LeftwingerIndia]

They can only vandalize Lenin's Statue but they wont be able destroy his ideas

[Misericordia]

The statue was actually toppled by genuine fascists from the photos I saw. Most of them were waving flags of the WWII-era Ukrainian Insurgent Army, a far-right fascist group that was set up by Nazi Germany in occupied Ukrainian territories to help them exterminate Soviet partisans(the Germans then almost immediately changed their minds and decided that these Ukrainian fascists were too uppity and started fucking their shit up). Among other wonderful acts of heroism(like Jew pogroms), the UKP massacred close to 100,000 Polish civilians in Galicia and Volhynia during WWII in order to create a pure Ukrainian space in those areas for a future independent Ukrainian state.

But who cares if these hooligans are fascists, they are opposing the ~oppressive State~, how can any leftist condemn them?

[Red Commissar]

The statue was actually toppled by genuine fascists from the photos I saw. Most of them were waving flags of the WWII-era Ukrainian Insurgent Army, a far-right fascist group that was set up by Nazi Germany in occupied Ukrainian territories to help them exterminate Soviet partisans(the Germans then almost immediately changed their minds and decided that these Ukrainian fascists were too uppity and started fucking their shit up). Among other wonderful acts of heroism(like Jew pogroms), the UKP massacred close to 100,000 Polish civilians in Galicia and Volhynia during WWII in order to create a pure Ukrainian space in those areas for a future independent Ukrainian state.

But who cares if these hooligans are fascists, they are opposing the ~oppressive State~, how can any leftist condemn them?

Some sources indicate that they were members of Svoboda who tore down the statue, so that is probably not too far off mark. They apparently did the same thing earlier in the year (http://en.ria.ru/world/20130216/179512172.html), so it makes sense they'd do the samething now when there is a lot more attention on Ukraine.

I suppose what should be established though is just how much influence a group like Svoboda has with the opposition. I was under the impression that Svoboda joined the opposition more because of an attempt to get more popular support and recognition by appearing to be part of an anti-corruption group, and deflect away from their more unsavory positions.

[Rss]

It's hard for me to believe that normal ukrainian who isn't rabid nationalist, but who opposes russian influence would topple statue of Lenin. This is why "they dont even know who he is, he is just a symbol of russia for them" reeks of downplaying fascist activity amongst the protesters.

[Decolonize The Left]

What matters is right-wing mobilization, not whether or not they toppled a statue. Fuck idols.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Thou shalt not worship idols.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's soviet motherland.

Seriously read the bible, man.

Double seriously - who gives a flying fuck about a statue of a guy who died nearly 100 years ago? It's a fucking statue!

[ed miliband]

well, they've got george clooney on their side, err...

QuABLx0rpJU

[Misericordia]

Some sources indicate that they were members of Svoboda who tore down the statue, so that is probably not too far off mark. They apparently did the same thing earlier in the year (http://en.ria.ru/world/20130216/179512172.html), so it makes sense they'd do the samething now when there is a lot more attention on Ukraine.

I suppose what should be established though is just how much influence a group like Svoboda has with the opposition. I was under the impression that Svoboda joined the opposition more because of an attempt to get more popular support and recognition by appearing to be part of an anti-corruption group, and deflect away from their more unsavory positions.
I just read that the basically neo-fascist Svoboda are now claiming responsibility for the vandalism. No wonder, they've vandalised communist monuments in the past and they're huge UKP fanboys(rehabilitation of those genocidal antisemitic Nazi-collaborators is a part of their political programme in fact, or at least it used to be a few years back).

Svoboda didn't join the opposition because of some attempt to get more popular support though, they've been the backbone of the opposition's street strength since the start. They're the third biggest opposition party in the country, with a bigger membership base but a smaller electorate than the second biggest opposition party, their allies UDAR. They got over 2 million votes in the parliamentary elections last year. Them and their close allies Klitschko's UDAR and Tymoshenko's Fatherland Union are the opposition.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Ugh fuck George clooney, why do I need his input on this.

[ed miliband]

because he's handsome i guess.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

If the protesters who tore down that statue are fascists then fuck them - but for being fascists not for breaking a statue.

Really ... Lenin is cool and all but all this moralistic outrage from "Communists" about the statues of their icons reeks of petty moralism.

[Dagoth Ur]

Thou shalt not worship idols.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's soviet motherland.

Seriously read the bible, man.

Double seriously - who gives a flying fuck about a statue of a guy who died nearly 100 years ago? It's a fucking statue!
It wouldn't be a big deal if literal fascists weren't the ones who did it. But who cares of fascists raise their flags above demolished symbols of communism. Anarchists are cool with that apparently.

[Dire Helix]

This isn't an act against "communism" but oppression. The crowd chanting 'a commie goes down' in Ukrainian when the statue was being toppled is a coincidence then?
It's hard for me to believe that normal ukrainian who isn't rabid nationalist, but who opposes russian influence would topple statue of Lenin. Anti-communism is the dominant ideology on the entire post-Soviet space(the only ideology even). The deindustrialization and lumpenization have served to provide perfect conditions for the breeding of far-right sentiments. Add to that 20+ years of state propaganda and you get a population that`s rabidly chauvinist and hostile to socialist ideas. The further it is from the USSR, the more blame is placed on Bolsheviks and Lenin personally for the pitiful state the former Soviet republics are in, as insane as it sounds. An average Russian or a Ukrainian is unlikely to participate in a spontaneous toppling of Lenin`s statue(this privilege is reserved for the far-right militants from Svoboda) just as he is unlikely to give a damn about it. Most would just cheer in front of their TVs while sipping beer.

[Bala Perdida]

An equivalent in US terms would be if they toppled the George Washington statue in Venezuela. They don't see a revolutionary, just a symbol of foreign dominance.

[Sinister Intents]

An equivalent in US terms would be if they toppled the George Washington statue in Venezuela. They don't see a revolutionary, just a symbol of foreign dominance.

Indeed, my first reaction to reading that the fascists toppled the statue of Lenin was its just a statue. It solely to them represents Russian aggression and dominance, if they hurt anyone or killed anyone it would be a different story.

[Dagoth Ur]

Guys they put up a nazi flag and changed anticommunist phrases.

Also that analogy is bullshit. If Venezuelans tore down a statue of Reagan, and put up a communist flag while chanting "people's liberation" it would be equivalent. Also good job defending Nazis Revleft. You cats are lols.

[consuming negativity]

Guys they put up a nazi flag and changed anticommunist phrases.

Also that analogy is bullshit. If Venezuelans tore down a statue of Reagan, and put up a communist flag while chanting "people's liberation" it would be equivalent. Also good job defending Nazis Revleft. You cats are lols.

And? What do you want us to do? It's a statue. I'm not going to rage and throw my keyboard against the wall and go on a shooting spree because a few idiot fascists knocked down a Lenin statue.

In fact, that they were anti-communist fascists makes it better in a way, because it means that it wasn't relatively normal protestors who hate Lenin - just a bunch of reactionary fuckwits. The only bad part is that it means there are actual fascists running around opnely in the Ukraine.

[Dagoth Ur]

Yeah which has been downplayed since the beginning of this thread by anticommunist hacks. Svoboda is running riot in west Ukraine and the anarchists are blowing it off just to make anti-Russian (ie anti-Bolshevik) points.

Also yes you must smash your keyboard and kill as many random strangers as possible to show your grief over this tragic loss. This was never about statues.

[Bala Perdida]

Im sorry I don't speak their dialect. Also I didn't see the nazi flag, so shit I accidentally defended a bunch of fuck-tard nazies.
I was just hoping the post soviet far-right disease didn't hit the Ukraine.

[Illegalitarian]

Yeah which has been downplayed since the beginning of this thread by anticommunist hacks. Svoboda is running riot in west Ukraine and the anarchists are blowing it off just to make anti-Russian (ie anti-Bolshevik) points.

Also yes you must smash your keyboard and kill as many random strangers as possible to show your grief over this tragic loss. This was never about statues.


Is this an actual post or are you shitting me.


No one, NO ONE in this thread as defended fascists or other far-right reactionaries whatsoever, or displayed anti-communist sympathies. The sentiment from the start, even in the other thread, has consistently been "right-wing loons going off and knocking down a Lenin statue because they're upset that their government won't change whip wielders, business as usual in the former soviet republics".


Acknowledging that Ukrainian nationalists tearing down a statue of the father of the Soviet Union is more an act of anti-Russian and pro-nationalists sentiments than it is an act of anti-communism =/= sympathizing with reactionaries.

It's also important to note here that, as the libcom article pointed out, there is an anarchist/revolutionary leftist element there that is somewhat of a silver lining, at least.

Any proof that these jokers started chanting anti-communist phrases and raised a nazi flag? Not saying it doesn't sound likely, but I haven't seen anything indicating that this happened.

[consuming negativity]

Yeah which has been downplayed since the beginning of this thread by anticommunist hacks. Svoboda is running riot in west Ukraine and the anarchists are blowing it off just to make anti-Russian (ie anti-Bolshevik) points.

Also yes you must smash your keyboard and kill as many random strangers as possible to show your grief over this tragic loss. This was never about statues.

Wow, are you actually downplaying the loss of the statue of great comrade Lenin? You're clearly an anti-communist nazi apologist just trying to make anti-Anarchist points. :lol:

[Logical seal]

You cry about statues being pulled down but don't say anything about leftist rape apologism. Either dedicate your life to worshiping fallen idols in Grutas Park or get your fucking act together.

Saying it like a true far-leftist. :)

[Yuppie Grinder]

It's a troubling sign of far-right aggression, but I couldn't care less about a Lenin statue.

[Remus Bleys]

Lenin is probably rolling over in his grave to you poeple going "oh no a statue of lenin"

With that being said it perturbs (is that a word) me a little

[Rafiq]

The Lenin depicted by the Soviet state, the erection of a false Lenin by Leninists, that is a much greater offense to his memory.

[Illegalitarian]

Lenin is probably rolling over in his grave to you poeple going "oh no a statue of lenin"


Let's hope he doesn't roll out of his little glass cult cube :laugh:

[Sinister Intents]

It's a troubling sign of far-right aggression, but I couldn't care less about a Lenin statue.

Indeed! Let's erect a larger one in Washington D.C

[motion denied]

When Lenin represents foreign domination, one should know that something has gone horribly wrong somewhere in the past century.

[Illegalitarian]

When Lenin represents foreign domination, one should know that something has gone horribly wrong somewhere in the past century.

He represents the USSR, which represents social imperialism for the Ukraine and a few other countries.

[RedHal]

He represents the USSR, which represents social imperialism for the Ukraine and a few other countries.

yes because that's how the facists, who did the toppling, view Lenin:rolleyes:

[servusmoderni]

I like how everything resolves around blaming Stalin. Why not put global warming on his back too?

[Sinister Intents]

I like how everything resolves around blaming Stalin. Why not put global warming on his back too?

That's very true, the world is getting very hot and the statue was in the way of a nice cool breeze so they knocked down the statue. I didn't think this thread would last so long as it did.

[Rss]

ITT:

"You stalinists are so infantile! They just expressed their underlying nationalist tendencies by toppling Lenin's statue! It has nothing to do with anti-communism!"

[Illegalitarian]

yes because that's how the facists, who did the toppling, view Lenin:rolleyes:


I've still yet to see this proof that those who did the toppling were fascists specifically.

But no, you're right, Ukrainian nationalists totally wouldn't view Lenin, father of the Soviet Union, as a symbol of foreign domination. After all, what did the USSR ever do to Ukrainians? :o

Or maybe you're saying that fascists or nationalists don't view Lenin as a symbol of Russia, the nation they're vehemently opposed to being close to due to a rough history? Maybe they're red fascists, simply trying to preserve the statue.


ITT:

"You stalinists are so infantile! They just expressed their underlying nationalist tendencies by toppling Lenin's statue! It has nothing to do with anti-communism!"

Yeah what a ridiculously unreasonable position to take, it's not like these protests have anything to do with Russia at all and the nationalists who oppose relations with it, it's clearly been an anti-communist movement out of the gate.

[Dagoth Ur]

You have to not know who Svoboda are to even claim there isn't evidence of fascists.

Also Ukraine was basically the most powerful state in the USSR aside from Russia. So Ukrainians talking about the horrors of communism for Ukraine are either fascists, holodomor revisionists, or ultra-leftist morons who would rather side with imperialism.

[Remus Bleys]

You have to not know who Svoboda are to even claim there isn't evidence of fascists.

Also Ukraine was basically the most powerful state in the USSR aside from Russia. So Ukrainians talking about the horrors of communism for Ukraine are either fascists, holodomor revisionists, or ultra-leftist morons who would rather side with imperialism.
russias not imperialist?
pray tell, what is a holodomor revisionist?

[Illegalitarian]

You have to not know who Svoboda are to even claim there isn't evidence of fascists.

Also Ukraine was basically the most powerful state in the USSR aside from Russia. So Ukrainians talking about the horrors of communism for Ukraine are either fascists, holodomor revisionists, or ultra-leftist morons who would rather side with imperialism.

"Holodomor revisionists"? Brace yourselves, the 'Kulaks did it' arguments are coming. :laugh:


Ukraine being the most powerful state in the USSR in what way? Militarily, perhaps? Certainly not economically.




You're also aware that Svoboda denied responsibility for this, correct? And that, while being nationalist trash, aren't exactly a fascist party, correct? Not defending them in any way, but I've yet to see proof that they were the ones behind this, much less that they are actual fascists.

[Os Cangaceiros]

russias not imperialist?
pray tell, what is a holodomor revisionist?

It doesn't make sense, in order for someone to be a "revisionist" they have to provide a contrarian account of events/revised narrative that goes against the popular norm, and the view accepted by most historians is that, at the very least, the famine in the Ukraine was exacerbated by poor economic planning on the part of the USSR. The "revisionists" are the moonbats who prattle on about the kulak arsonists or whatever.

[Rurkel]

And that, while being nationalist trash, aren't exactly a fascist party, correct?
I am not a tankie, but I think that "fascist" describes Svoboda fairly well. They glorify Ukrainian nationalists who collaborated with Hitler, one of their members was welcome at the neo-Nazi "Vision Europa" conference in Stockholm this may.

[Comrade Chernov]

You have to not know who Svoboda are to even claim there isn't evidence of fascists.

Also Ukraine was basically the most powerful state in the USSR aside from Russia. So Ukrainians talking about the horrors of communism for Ukraine are either fascists, holodomor revisionists, or ultra-leftist morons who would rather side with imperialism.

I'd say that it's more "horrors of the USSR", not "horrors of Communism".

[o well this is ok I guess]

It doesn't make sense, in order for someone to be a "revisionist" they have to provide a contrarian account of events/revised narrative that goes against the popular norm, and the view accepted by most historians is that, at the very least, the famine in the Ukraine was exacerbated by poor economic planning on the part of the USSR. The "revisionists" are the moonbats who prattle on about the kulak arsonists or whatever. revisionism is deviation from the political line, not the
well
real line

[Illegalitarian]

I am not a tankie, but I think that "fascist" describes Svoboda fairly well. They glorify Ukrainian nationalists who collaborated with Hitler, one of their members was welcome at the neo-Nazi "Vision Europa" conference in Stockholm this may.


White nationalists are also extremely sympathetic with Hitler, yet most of them are big into the right-libertarian movement.


They might be fascist, I'm not familiar with their party lines, but nothing I've seen from them indicates that they advocate a fascist Ukraine, or a fascist anything.

[Rurkel]

Svoboda certainly doesn't have any "right-wing libertarian" flavour. This seems to be largely specific to Anglophone countries.

[AntiFascism]

They have no respect! Smash these fake Sorus-funded "revolutionaries" and fascist scum.

If Ukraine chooses "closer ties with the EU" to gain "independence" from Russia, it means becoming a NATO/US puppet like the Baltic states or Poland.

[Dagoth Ur]

Right libertarians are American fascists. Nuff said.

Also Holodomor is revisionist because they rewrote what did happen and instead cobbled together a special communist-led holocaust. Part of the overarching plan to equate fascism and communism. That so many "leftists" gobble up this imperialist propaganda is pathetic to say the least. But when push comes to shove these kinds of "leftists" become right-wing conservatives. Have fun with that.

[Os Cangaceiros]

revisionism is deviation from the political line, not the
well
real line

History is a "political line" in many respects

But yeah, what is relevant here I suppose are the actual facts (as much as they can be ascertained), and I think when one looks at said facts it's pretty clear that the USSR had a significant role in some of the terrible things that happened in the Ukraine during that period of time and that these terrible things were not unavoidable.

I don't know. Historical resentments are complicated and toxic things that are often manipulated by bad people. I guess I do agree with your post in general even though I've kind of gone off topic.

[Dagoth Ur]

Still not genocide.

[Remus Bleys]

That so many "leftists" gobble up this imperialist propaganda is pathetic to say the least.
Unlike Defense of the Motherland, right?

But when push comes to shove these kinds of "leftists" become right-wing conservatives. Have fun with that.
Well, your "communists" have "liquidated" thousands of actual communists. Have fun with that.

[Dagoth Ur]

I'd rather be behind communists who never stopped being communists despite any mistake made than rats who end up being neocons.

[Remus Bleys]

I'd rather be behind communists who never stopped being communists despite any mistake made than rats who end up being neocons.
What? Who are you arguing against here even?

[Fourth Internationalist]

Right libertarians are American fascists. Nuff said.

Such an unscientific analysis of fascism and right-wing libertarianism will result in poor practice in the real world. You should consider reading about a Marxist analysis of fascism.


Also Holodomor is revisionist because they rewrote what did happen and instead cobbled together a special communist-led holocaust. Part of the overarching plan to equate fascism and communism. That so many "leftists" gobble up this imperialist propaganda is pathetic to say the least. But when push comes to shove these kinds of "leftists" become right-wing conservatives. Have fun with that.

We don't believe communists caused Holodomor. The Stalinist government of the USSR, however, did.

[Comrade Jacob]

We don't believe communists caused Holodomor. The Stalinist government of the USSR, however, did.

Kulaks

[Remus Bleys]

Kulaks
Got a source for that?
I don't know either way but...
The "revisionists" are the moonbats who prattle on about the kulak arsonists or whatever.

[Remus Bleys]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/fascists-topple-lenin-t185653/index.html There is already a couple threads, and the OP in this one lines up with yours.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Right libertarians are American fascists. Nuff said.

Also Holodomor is revisionist because they rewrote what did happen and instead cobbled together a special communist-led holocaust. Part of the overarching plan to equate fascism and communism. That so many "leftists" gobble up this imperialist propaganda is pathetic to say the least. But when push comes to shove these kinds of "leftists" become right-wing conservatives. Have fun with that.


Still not genocide.

Dagoth's argument is like the Turks fussing over whether or not the massacre of Armenian was a "genocide" or not when it so obviously misses the point.

The USSR let a bunch of people starve in the 30s in the Ukraine as a part of a program to extract food from workers and collectivize agricultural labor. It was a terrible decision and it motivated many Ukrainians to side with fascists during WWII. Whether or not we call it "genocide" is missing the point - a bunch of peasants starved to death because of poorly justified bureaucratic choices.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Kulaks

Yes, yes. It's always someone other than the Stalinists. :rolleyes:

[Tim Cornelis]

Ugh, time and time again the Marcy-drones proof themselves to be the most laughable idiots that exist on the far-left.

[KurtFF8]

Anyway to stay on topic before this gets quite off topic, this is a statement from the Communist Party of the Ukraine (http://www.systemiccapital.com/communist-party-of-ukraine-warn-of-fascist-coup-attempt/):



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The Communist Party of Ukraine has issued an urgent call for solidarity from the international workers’ movement, warning that an attempted fascist coup is underway in the former Soviet republic.
On the afternoon of Dec. 8, protesters in Kiev, the capital of Ukraine, toppled a statue of Soviet leader V.I. Lenin. The Svoboda (“Freedom”) party set up its flag and also the flag of the World War II era Nazi collaboration regime on the pedestal. The group’s leader, Oleg Tyagnibok, declared this vandalism to be the “political murder” of communists.
Protests began in Kiev on Nov. 21, uniting various pro-Western opposition forces under the name “Euromaidan,” after the government of Viktor Yanukovich announced plans to delay agreements toward integrating Ukraine into the European Union.
Yanukovich, who had strongly supported joining the EU, pulled back as European and U.S. officials poured on pressure to undermine the sovereignty of Ukraine’s bourgeois government. This pressure included extremely harsh terms for an International Monetary Fund loan.
While the numbers have been exaggerated in Western media reports, the pro-imperialist protests have grown and undertaken numerous provocations — including ramming a government building with a bulldozer.
The Svoboda group plays a leading role in the protest movement. Party leader Oleg Tyagnibok, a member of the Ukrainian parliament, has built his political career on appeals to anti-Russia nationalism and anti-Semitism.
Following the destruction of the Lenin monument, Anatoli Sokoliuk, head of the Foreign Affairs Department of the Communist Party of Ukraine, reported: “At 19:00 Kiev time, crowds of opposition in the city center are saying that their next target will be the President of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovich. They are calling for the arrest of the Ukrainian government.
“The fascists have also called for the destruction of the Communist Party of Ukraine office and expressed a desire to kill all of our workers,” said Sokoliuk. “That is why I and my comrades will defend our headquarters.”
The German daily Junge Welt reported Dec. 9 that the Ukrainian government had begun raids against organizations involved in the Euromaidan movement. It is unclear what impact these steps will have on quelling the U.S./European-backed forces.
Anti-war and solidarity activists in the U.S. must be on alert to respond to further provocations by the West and by fascists inside Ukraine.

MORE…
http://www.workers.org/articles/2013/12/09/pro-imperialists-besiege-ukraine-communists-warn-fascist-coup-attempt/ (http://www.workers.org/articles/2013/12/09/pro-imperialists-besiege-ukraine-communists-warn-fascist-coup-attempt/)
(http://twitter.com/share?url=http://www.systemiccapital.com/communist-party-of-ukraine-warn-of-fascist-coup-attempt/&text=Communist%20Party%20of%20Ukraine%20warn%20of% 20fascist%20coup%20attempt)

[Remus Bleys]

The Communist Party of Ukraine has also referred to Europe as liking homosexuals and "African handlers"

They are reactionary filth and to use them on a communist website is absurd

[Comrade Chernov]

*Panhandlers, Remus.

[KurtFF8]

The Communist Party of Ukraine has also referred to Europe as liking homosexuals and "African handlers"

They are reactionary filth and to use them on a communist website is absurd

Wow that's quite disturbing language from them.

[Per Levy]

Wow that's quite disturbing language from them.

to give the full quote:


Later, Communist Party MP Antonina Khromova made statements at the Donetsk regional council, approving the use of force to remove protesters in Kiev, which was met with applause. She continued by saying that Ukraine does not need European values, namely, "same-sex marriage" and "African pan handlers".[225]

yeah that "communist" party is filth and they are lackeys of the russian and russophiliatic ukranian bourgeoisie.

[Tifosi]

Was watching this from Vice...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oei0AoCn2A

Fascists within the student occupation. You can see the Svoboda banners up on the balcony.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-Ukrainian_Union_%22Svoboda%22

[DOOM]

An upcoming revolution wouldn't change anything, like in 2004. I feel kind of sorry for the ukrainian people.

Gesendet von meinem GT-I9300 mit Tapatalk

[The Intransigent Faction]

it motivated many Ukrainians to side with fascists during WWII.

Really...? Why?

Also, what seems most important is asking who exactly is involved in these protests. I have a hard time believing that every last one of them are fascists, but what sort of motivation could drive someone to face that kind of police violence all in the name of pushing Ukraine into joining a neoliberal organization?

[KurtFF8]

Really...? Why?

Also, yeah I know there's some thread about the toppling of the Lenin statue, but what seems most important is asking who exactly is involved in these protests. I have a hard time believing that every last one of them are fascists, but what sort of motivation could drive someone to face that kind of police violence all in the name of pushing Ukraine into joining a neoliberal organization?

Well obviously it isn't as if thousands are mobilizing because they think that orienting towards the EU over Russia is primarily about austerity and imperialism but more likely about the perception of higher standards of living and "liberal" values perhaps?

That of course is when the Left should be clear about how joining the EU doesn't really mean what the EU oriented folks say it means.

[Ele'ill]

i think i've seen the red and black a couple times now in videos and pictures but mostly with the line straight across isn't that some official 'nationalist anarchist' flag?

[Tifosi]

i think i've seen the red and black a couple times now in videos and pictures but mostly with the line straight across isn't that some official 'nationalist anarchist' flag?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army

[Ele'ill]

that probably makes more sense, thanks

[Comrade Jacob]

Yes, yes. It's always someone other than the Stalinists. :rolleyes:

Yes, yes. It's always Stalin, anything bad that happened in his time was his fault and was planned for the lulz.

[Remus Bleys]

Yes, yes. It's always Stalin, anything bad that happened in his time was his fault and was planned for the lulz.
No, its simply the natural result of capitalist industrialization in the USSR.

Anyway im a bit lost - did fascists topple a statue of lenin or not?

[Comrade Jacob]

Anyway im a bit lost - did fascists topple a statue of lenin or not?

To sum up: Quiet a few of them where part of far-right parties/support them, it wasn't an anti-communist act by some it was just an anti-Russia act. However by the fascist element the topple of the statue was no doubt anti-communist.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Yes, yes. It's always Stalin, anything bad that happened in his time was his fault and was planned for the lulz.

Considering the Tea Party movement is Stalin's fault, it's not that big of a stretch! :D

[The Intransigent Faction]

Well obviously it isn't as if thousands are mobilizing because they think that orienting towards the EU over Russia is primarily about austerity and imperialism but more likely about the perception of higher standards of living and "liberal" values perhaps?

That of course is when the Left should be clear about how joining the EU doesn't really mean what the EU oriented folks say it means.

So in other words they aren't turning to the EU because they're blatantly reactionary, but just because they need the Left to pull their heads out of the sand?

The standard of living that European workers fought for (and still are fighting for), and even the "liberal values", didn't suddenly appear because they all went out and decided to join the EU...

[KurtFF8]

So in other words they aren't turning to the EU because they're blatantly reactionary, but just because they need the Left to pull their heads out of the sand?

No, that's not what I said at all. I said that it isn't because they just want austerity but because they have an ideological conception of what joining the EU is and that the Left's role is to combat it.


The standard of living that European workers fought for (and still are fighting for), and even the "liberal values", didn't suddenly appear because they all went out and decided to join the EU...

Right, I'm not sure what your point here is though.

[The Intransigent Faction]

No, that's not what I said at all.

Indeed it's not. It's what I said.
My 'point' is have these people never heard of Greece or something...?
I just can't wrap my head around how this "ideological conception" wouldn't have been shattered by now. It's not making sense to me. That's all.

[human strike]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAhfS9R1Kvg

This boils my blood.

EDIT: Ok I now know more about this, this wasn't necessary an anti-"communist" but just an anti-Russian-oppression act.

And nothing of value was lost.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Really...? Why?


Because they blamed policies such as the famine on the rule of the Communist Party and so adopted the policy of alliance with a powerful invading power? Asking "why" is like asking "why" so many kingdoms in Mexico sided with the Spanish during the conquest. Of course, it should also be noted that many Ukrainians, whatever their initial opinions, ultimately sided with the USSR.

[Rurkel]

Because they blamed policies such as the famine on the rule of the Communist Party and so adopted the policy of alliance with a powerful invading power?
Maybe this applies to some rank-and-file collaborators, but nationalist leaders like Bandera would have probably collaborated no matter what.

[Nihilism]

I don't understand the arguing in this thread.

If I get the gist of the situation in Ukraine correct, a Right Wing Capitalist party is fighting with a Pseudo Communist party? Or was the argument about the fact that some people on the thread didn't care about a statue of Lenin being toppled?

[The Intransigent Faction]

Because they blamed policies such as the famine on the rule of the Communist Party and so adopted the policy of alliance with a powerful invading power? Asking "why" is like asking "why" so many kingdoms in Mexico sided with the Spanish during the conquest. Of course, it should also be noted that many Ukrainians, whatever their initial opinions, ultimately sided with the USSR.

It's a bit of a jump from blaming the USSR for famine to collaborating with fascist invaders, though. Just like it's a jump from opposing Russia to somehow thinking it will all be OK if they just go and get brutalized by cops for the sake of being exploited by Europe.

I'm just trying to figure how Ukraine can go from here to anything like a socialist movement without a party, or vanguard, or whatever...How does the left work its way in at all in a confrontation between neoliberals and nationalists or pro-Russian groups, if even in the current conditions they seem to have pretty much no role and people don't realize what they're asking for by seeking 'free trade' with the EU?

[tanklv]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAhfS9R1Kvg

This boils my blood.

EDIT: Ok I now know more about this, this wasn't necessary an anti-"communist" but just an anti-Russian-oppression act.

Thanks for your edited response. The Ukrainians are more reacting to Russian Imperialism, which for a good many centuries treated Ukraine as a colony of Russia. The west is occupied by mainly native Ukrainians, while the east is occupied by decendants of Russians the Czars and Dictators of Russia sent to occupy the Ukraine to make them conform to what Russia wanted. This is a very sore point to Ukrainians, especially since the forced starvation and death by Russia of over 2 million Ukrainians during the early 20th century.

[TheEmancipator]

The fact that Eastern Europeans equate communism with Russian nationalism is a testament to how badly the Stalinists hid their blatant Russian nationalism and pan-slavism.

[Rurkel]

The west is occupied by mainly native Ukrainians, while the east is occupied by decendants of Russians the Czars and Dictators of Russia sent to occupy the Ukraine to make them conform to what Russia wanted.This starts to have chauvinist nativist hints. Neither Svoboda nor Yanukovich are something to sympathize with.

[tanklv]

This starts to have chauvinist nativist hints. Neither Svoboda nor Yanukovich are something to sympathize with.

Unfortunately, in hard economic times such as what the world is experiencing now due to the greed and fascist policies of the ruling class in the west as exemplified by Wall Street, there is a tendency to find scapegoats - the "other" - to blame for the pain one suffers - the less educated are more succeptable to such actions.

That is why people carry grudges that can last centuries, whether it is racism as exemplified by the US South and the republican/teabagger party, to old colonial grudges as seen in present day Ukraine.

Also unfortunately, too many persons are falling victim to the uniquely American pathology of being "temporarily impoverished millionaires" who are "going to make it rich any day now", instead of realizing that we are all but one paycheck away from poverty and starvation and homelessness.

Russia is no longer the USSR - it is run more like the criminal enterprise known as the "mafia" or drug lords, than anything even remotely resembling socialism.

So the choice has become to align with the International Monetary Fund and Wall Street criminal fascists who run the west/EU, or the drug lords/Russian Mafia criminals who run Russia.

Do not look to the USA for any sort of social consciousness raising of the Socialist variety - there is no "left" existing anymore here. And that attitude is creeping into Europe and the East. But it is the workers in Europe and the East who hold the most hope for leading the socialist change, since they have at least experienced it and have an understanding of it.

In order for Socialism to grow in the world, there first has to be a way to be determined how to - literally - destroy Wall Street and the US Military Industrial Complex and all of its incarnations/tentacles throughout the world.