Arguments in favor of the min wage hike and support of workers....

[RadioRaheem84]

This is the response I received from a right wing nut job


Labor, my commie friend, is a commodity and its price is set by the marketplace. Don't like minimum wage? Then learn a marketable skill, improve yourself, and get a better paying job. No one is forcing these poor downtrodden proles to flip burgers. No one held a gun to their head and said "flip my burgers for $7.25, peasant, or I'll shoot."

Any responses?

[RadioRaheem84]

I keep getting this response that the market determines this or that. Isn't this fight more of a political one than anything else? The fight for the gains of those profits? They think the fast food workers are meddling with market price mechanisms by artificially setting wages.

[RadioRaheem84]

Anyone?

[Ritzy Cat]

That is a funny comment...


No one held a gun to their head and said "flip my burgers for $7.25, peasant, or I'll shoot.

This is an ironic interpretation of wage slavery. I guess you could say they are symbolically having a gun held to their head, else they have no other option to provide for themselves or their families.

The market is a result of the capitalist state, and thus it does in fact set the "value" of labor, but the value is a product in relation to the bourgeiosie capital.

He is clueless!

[Damon]

I'm neither for nor against the minimum wage increase or decrease, as I do not believe that this is where the problem originates.

However, something to consider is that the more money there is in an economic system, the less it is worth.

Just as if diamonds rained from the sky they'd be worthless - in face, they'd be more than worthless: people would literally pay other people to have those diamonds shoveled off of their lawns and removed.

(As has been said a thousand times in a thousand different places) the solution to this era's current problems isn't to keep throwing money at them.

[RadioRaheem84]

While I appreciate the response I would like it broken down like I'm a total noob. How would you counter the other stuff?

[RedMaterialist]

This is the response I received from a right wing nut job



Any responses?

First, he's right that labor is a commodity, its market-price, like all commodities, is set by supply and demand on the labor market. Humans are treated like cattle at an auction.

When there is an over-supply of a commodity relative to demand, then the price of that commodity goes down. This is what happens when unemployment (the supply of labor) is high. This explains why capitalism is quite happy with 8% unemployment and real unemployment at probably 15%.

But, more fundamentally, the price of labor, like all commodities, is ultimately controlled by its cost of production. If a commodity is cheap to make then its price will be cheap relative to other commodities.

Capitalism needs burger flippers. It is very cheap to produce a burger flipper. Raise them in poverty, give them crappy health care, crappy food and crappy education then you produce a cheap labor commodity.

But even then, since there is an artificial oversupply of cheap labor (high unemployment) the market price is even lower than the cost of production. Thus even the minimum wage is less than the cost of production and maintenance of a burger flipper, which, of course is exactly what McDonalds wants.

It is absolutely essential that society raise the minimum wage to around 15.00 an hour. It is one of the few political issues I have ever seen that socialists and liberals can actually win on. Raising the minimum wage operates to reduce profits. That is why the capitalists hate it so much.

As far as telling the burger flipper to learn a marketable skill, where does the right wing nut job expect the person to get the money to do that? The workers have to live, take care of children, drive a car, pay for college and probably some kind of pre-college to make up for the crappy education the right wing gave them.

If your nut job says that that is their responsibility, I would say that pretty soon several hundred thousand workers and their socialist leaders will be showing up at his house with pitchforks and torches.

[RadioRaheem84]

I'm also getting the typical response that if wages were raised to livable wages that everyone would be lifeguards not engineers.

[argeiphontes]

^ That particular argument assumes that 1) there's nothing that distinguishes different jobs other than pay, and 2) that a rise in the sea level wouldn't lift all boats, so to speak. I'm sorry but I don't have a link that proves #2, but I've read it somewhere online, and I would think that a bigger pool of "acceptable" jobs to choose from would increase the bargaining power of employees a bit.

[tallguy]

This is the response I received from a right wing nut job



Any responses?
Yeah, he's a fucking tosser

But more seriously...

The problem is only partially wages. It is also the cost of living. Some of that cost is due to growing resource constraints and that is a whole new ball game. However, a significant part of the cost of living facing most workers (here in the UK certainly and, I suspect, it is not dissimilar across much of the developed world) is the cost of housing. But, that ever increasing cost of housing (mortgage or rent) is almost wholly due to an inflationary wall of lent-into-existence credit chasing real estate over the last several decades.

The first thing that needs to be done before anything else can change, is the FRB banking system has to be smashed. In the absence of that, everything else is dealing with symptoms.

[argeiphontes]

The fight for the gains of those profits?

Yes. It seems to me that there is a relatively fixed relation between equipment and what not (capital) and the amount of labor needed to work it. You can't just fire your people because the minimum wage went up.

There might be some flexibility, and some ability to intensify production, but there are limits. Capitalists are already trying to minimize the cost of labor, regardless of its price. It's not like they're keeping extra people around for no reason. The ratio of capital to labor isn't going to change just because wages increase, though it might spur technological development in that direction eventually, but technology also can't just be developed out of thin air.

(If anybody has links to studies or something I'd like to see them, esp. from a Marxian econ perspective. It seems to be a mixed bag depending on the ideology of the institution that's putting it out, e.g. CEPR versus Heritage.)

So yeah, they are asking for a bigger piece of the profit pie.

[RadioRaheem84]

I would use the fact that McDonald's already pays its workers 15 an hour in Australia but all the articles on the matter also say it cuts more corners and uses automation. Also the prices for the meals goes up higher

[argeiphontes]

Also the prices for the meals goes up higher

I hate hearing this argument, personally. From a utilitarian perspective (maximizing utility to the greatest number of people), the worker gains more than you lose, when you pay a few more cents per burger.

If the gain/loss was proportional between the customer and the worker, it might make sense, but even then, the customers are not all working minimum wage jobs and can afford to pay more. It's like Fair Trade coffee, basically.

[RedMaterialist]

I'm also getting the typical response that if wages were raised to livable wages that everyone would be lifeguards not engineers.

Not true. The law of commodity value still applies. It costs more to produce an engineer than a lifeguard, thus the labor price of an engineer will, on average, be higher. Also, not everybody wants to be an engineer. Some guys think women are more attracted to beach types than nerds.

And, the livable wage is only the minimum wage needed to live. It doesnt mean everybody will receive that wage.

[Slavic]

I would use the fact that McDonald's already pays its workers 15 an hour in Australia but all the articles on the matter also say it cuts more corners and uses automation. Also the prices for the meals goes up higher

That's the issue though with living wage and minimum wage reform. They are wonderful ideas at heart but they still maintain a capitalist system. When the price of labor goes up the price of the commodities produce will rise accordingly. It is old business practice to pass the increase cost of labor onto the customers.

[reb]

This is the response I received from a right wing nut job



Any responses?

You're a communist, you should know that the value of commodities are not determined by markets.

[RadioRaheem84]

Who or what determines the livable wage is another one I always get? What criteria?

[argeiphontes]

The cost of living in a geographical area. Just basic necessities like food, clothing, shelter, etc.

Here's one from MIT: http://livingwage.mit.edu/

(That one looks a little low for my area, maybe it's old.)

Of course, ethically you could argue for different levels of livable. And from a socialist perspective, the laborer is entitled to the full value of their labor anyway, so any level up to and including equal distribution of all profits to the workers is justifiable. (And desired.)

edit: It's not a "little low", it's very low. I wouldn't have a phone or internet for example, or any entertainment at all. People have psychological requirements too, also they're not serfs so need the ability to find better jobs and whatever. Of all reform suggestions, I like the Guaranteed Basic Income the most, it would give workers more power to negotiate better conditions and pay. (I think.)

[Sea]

Who or what determines the livable wage is another one I always get? What criteria?You'd be a lot better off educating yourself than referring to us. If you absolutely have to, refer your capitalist friend to us and let those who are better-armed conduct the argument. This is really basic stuff and it's sad to see someone who has been on revleft since 2007 have to report in for answers.

Wage, when not forced above its value such as by minimum-wage laws, is determined by the cost of those things which the worker needs to continue working, or, as Marx put it, the necessaries of life. Obviously, the cost of the worker's training plays a part in this too, and this is why, amongst other reasons, why doctors are paid far more than burger-flippers.

This is all covered in the first volume of Capital. Read it before you go on calling yourself a Marxist.
Of course, ethically you could argue for different levels of livable. And from a socialist perspective, the laborer is entitled to the full value of their labor anyway, so any level up to and including equal distribution of all profits to the workers is justifiable. (And desired.)This is absurd. You're comparing apples to oranges, or, just as silly, labor-time to productivity. This is the same basic mistake of all those idiots who talk about "fairness" or "unfairness" of wages.

[blake 3:17]

The language of the piece below isn't in left rhetoric, but it's right and part of a campaign I am supportive of. It's a positive sign that a major union is pushing a class wide demand like this.


Minimum wage is 21 per cent below poverty line – CUPE Ontario report to Minimum Wage Advisory Panel calls for increase to $14/hr
NOV 1, 2013 11:44 AM
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A full-time worker earning minimum wage in Ontario has an income 21 per cent below the poverty line, the Canadian Union of Public Employees (CUPE) Ontario told a provincial minimum wage advisory panel in Guelph today.

“Ontario hasn’t raised the minimum wage since 2010, while most other provinces have. It needs to be raised above the poverty line to $14 an hour,” said Janice Folk-Dawson, who works at the University of Guelph and is chair of CUPE Ontario’s University Workers’ Coordinating Committee.

The current minimum wage is $10.25. Since the last increase, inflation has reduced the purchasing power of those wages by 7 per cent. About 534,000 Ontarians work for minimum wage.

“Raising the minimum wage isn’t just good for low-wage earners, it’s good for the economy,” said Folk-Dawson. “History shows that raising the minimum wage creates an economic boost and creates jobs.”

Most of Ontario’s recent job growth has been in part-time and casual positions, which often pay minimum wage. People working for minimum wage are also more likely to work multiple jobs to eke out a living.

“This is an equality issue. Minimum wage earners are disproportionately women, racialized workers, people with disabilities and new immigrants,” she said. “They are also the people doing difficult, front line service jobs like cleaners, food service workers, the child care workers who look after our kids, the personal support workers who look after our aging parents, and the social service workers who support people with developmental disabilities.”

CUPE is Ontario's community union, with members providing quality public services we all rely on in every part of the province every day. CUPE Ontario members are proud to work in social services, health care, municipalities, school boards, universities and airlines.

To download a PDF of the report, “Towards a Living Wage,” visit http://cupe.on.ca/2013wagesubmission

http://cupe.ca/minimum-wage/minimum-wage-21-cent-below-poverty-line

[argeiphontes]

This is absurd. You're comparing apples to oranges, or, just as silly, labor-time to productivity. This is the same basic mistake of all those idiots who talk about "fairness" or "unfairness" of wages.

I just meant that any wage hike is justifiable, since the laborer is entitled to all of the value produced. It's just a "negotiation" for a piece of the surplus. I don't expect the target audience to be taking over the workplace or revolting.

[blake 3:17]

You're comparing apples to oranges, or, just as silly, labor-time to productivity. This is the same basic mistake of all those idiots who talk about "fairness" or "unfairness" of wages.

I'm not sure what you're saying about fair wages. I'm used to some Marxists and anarchists attacking the idea entirely which I think is silly. I'm all for commodified/waged labour but if it means no wages...

Anyways on fairness...

"A moral economy, in one interpretation, is an economy that is based on goodness, fairness, and justice."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_economy

And a link to E.P. Thompson's main essay on the subject : http://libcom.org/history/moral-economy-english-crowd-eighteenth-century-epthompson

These are a bit outside the frame of 'wages' proper but very much about exploitation under capitalism and why and how people resist.

[RadioRaheem84]

Shareholders are little old grannies? Is that true? I've made headway but now they think shareholders are all pension earners and little old grannies getting dividend.

[Klaatu]

An argument in FAVOR of raising minimum wages:

A) lower-wage workers will not have to rely on public assistance (food stamps, etc)
to supplement their meager incomes, if they can earn a decent wage.

B) the higher-earning worker spends his money RIGHT IN HIS OWN COMMUNITY,
and this goes on to help raise others out of poverty, because then THEY have jobs
(which may not otherwise exist.) It's really a no-brainer, yet conservatives still just
don't get it; higher paychecks actually create higher levels of employment!

In fact, the more that wages overall are equalized, the greater the economic activity
of the society improves as a whole (Henry Ford realized this 100 years ago, when
he paid his employees well enough so they could buy the same cars they had built)

[argeiphontes]

Shareholders are little old grannies? Is that true? I've made headway but now they think shareholders are all pension earners and little old grannies getting dividend.

Yeah, they'll make a big deal about institutional investors like pension funds. That's how they get away with saying things like "50% of Americans own stocks."

I don't think those grannies would lose a lot of money. If they lost a couple of cents, it's still better for the workers to earn more, based on the utilitarian argument.

They could invest in more profitable companies ;) (Seriously, though, there are people who are managing those pension funds and mutual funds who would ditch low-performing stock.)

[Sam_b]

You're a communist, you should know that the value of commodities are not determined by markets.

Please don't belittle people who are posting in the Learning forum. This is the place to ask questions, not for listing whether or not someone 'should' know something.