Nelson Mandela dead

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-25249520

RIP

[RedAnarchist]

RIP. What a life he led.

[Hrafn]

Rest in peace, warrior.

[hatzel]

http://oi39.tinypic.com/2ekosu9.jpg

The leftovers of a sticker on a lamppost on my road. No idea who it was to start with, but my brother and I decided long ago that it was Mandela. Now it's all pretentious and arty symbolism you know...

[Sasha]

expect the same people who i can remember calling him an terrorist be crying for him

[bricolage]

a year of big deaths it seems.
abahlali obituary will be the only thing worth reading.

[Comrade Chernov]

Rest in peace.

[Hit The North]

He is currently being lionised by the media as the saviour of South African capitalism.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Well, I won't pretend that he was a perfect character or a Communist, or that his actions later in life were admirable, but damn it he was a hero and five times the man anyone of us will ever be, and a legend for people all around the world struggling against oppression

Rest In Power

xOYxLJVBkIM

[bricolage]

He is currently being lionised by the media as the saviour of South African capitalism.
In a way he was yeah.

[BIXX]

I just heard, on the bus. I ended up teaching a bunch of kids who he was.

RIP.

[argeiphontes]

Rest In Peace.

[Hit The North]

In a way he was yeah.

He was totally. Trust me, I was active in the Anti-Apartheid movement in the UK in the 1980s and I remember that there was a lot of concern on the right that a victory for the ANC would be a back door for communism. Nelson soon put their minds at rest.

Don't get me wrong, Mandela was a great man - but only within the horizons of bourgeois ideology. Millions of black South Africans are materially little better off now than they were under apartheid. This is one of the key reasons why the bourgeois media can celebrate his life and struggle with all the worthy liberal sentiment they can muster.

[Hrafn]

Nelson Mandela fought, and achieved not a victory, but not a complete loss either.

[bricolage]

He was totally. Trust me, I was active in the Anti-Apartheid movement in the UK in the 1980s and I remember that there was a lot of concern on the right that a victory for the ANC would be a back door for communism. Nelson soon put their minds at rest.

Don't get me wrong, Mandela was a great man - but only within the horizons of bourgeois ideology. Millions of black South Africans are materially little better off now than they were under apartheid. This is one of the key reasons why the bourgeois media can celebrate his life and struggle with all the worthy liberal sentiment they can muster.
No I agree with you entirely, I was just being half measured in my response.
South African capitalism needed a revolution against apartheid, it was completely unprofitable for racist economics to continue. Groups like the SACP long clung to the stagism of a 'second revolution', that 1994 was just the first step to a future socialist revolution... until they gave up on that entirely and just openly managed capital. The reason I said the Abahlali obituary will be the only thing worth reading is just that, because South Africa is still a country rife with exploitation and oppression but that there are whole hosts of social movements and working class organisations fighting against this. Western liberals have been unwilling to criticise the ANC led state for many years, most often because they are loathe to admit that national liberation does not on its own lead to much more beyond a different capitalist class.

Returning to Abahlali I've always been intrigued by this, albeit slightly problematic, quote. Today it seems more relevant than ever:

“The first Nelson Mandela was Jesus Christ. The second was Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela. The third Nelson Mandela are the poor people of the world"

[Devrim]

He is currently being lionised by the media as the saviour of South African capitalism.

Yes, he certainly was. There isn't any doubt about it.

I don't see why the left should be shedding tears over the death of another bourgeois nationalist.

Devrim

[Hit The North]

Because I'm feeling nostalgic:

AgcTvoWjZJU

[brigadista]

I will pay him respect for doing 27 years hard labour for his beliefs under apartheid and being estranged from his family and friends - that cannot be disputed

[Bolshevik Sickle]

I bet the Neo-Nazis are having beers right now.

[RedAnarchist]

I bet the Neo-Nazis are having beers right now.

A word of advice, don't look on Stormfront, the cancerous pricks are being especially vile tonight.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

A word of advice, don't look on Stormfront, the cancerous pricks are being especially vile tonight.

Yeah I don't lurk that site often, it's an ugly site (litterely, I mean the site is so plain and dull looking) with ugly people (dont know how someone can be brought up to be so intolerant). Nor do I post on there (Apparently StormFront is a honeypot, which makes sense considering people who have posted as a guest in Italy have been arrested).

[d3crypt]

What a great loss:( Mandela was a great man.

[blake 3:17]

Much love to the brother.

I was explaining who Nelson Mandela was a few years ago to some pre-teens at a community centre -- his picture was on the wall -- & I explained that he'd been a school teacher and then had fought his government and been jailed for many many years before being released and becoming president of South Africa. One of the kids asked about him being a bad guy because he'd been in jail for so long. I explained that he was good guy who'd broken bad laws. ------pause ------- "COOL!"

Much respect to all those who do good by breaking bad laws.

[blake 3:17]

Just a few images of Mandela I like. One very Political and the other two just good...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-2bs-f0dVPCY/UOk0QO0xZNI/AAAAAAAAANY/37jOl-Nu6o8/s1600/Mandela.png

http://media.npr.org/assets/img/2013/06/25/nelson-mandela1_custom-451884e26a2e9677b50650949e908433e61f79b9-s6-c30.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39296000/jpg/_39296573_child_ap300.jpg

[Remus Bleys]

http://en.internationalism.org/worldrevolution/201307/8951/mandela-human-face-capitalism
I'm going to go ahead and be the guy who posts this.
Leftists should get over themselves.

[BIXX]

Honestly, I would never call him perfect, but the dude did a lot in his life, and as a picture above noted, supported communism at one point.

[Remus Bleys]

Honestly, I would never call him perfect, but the dude did a lot in his life, and as a picture above noted, supported communism at one point.

That was realpolitik. And were these commies even commie?
I mean, stalin claimed to support communism and you don't accept him as being "good enough"

What actions did mandela do to show his pro communism?

[Skyhilist]

Could he have been more revolutionary in terms of opposing capitalism? Yeah. But he helped pioneer one of the most successful anti-racist struggles and for that deserves to be greatly commended.

RIP.

[BIXX]

That was realpolitik. And were these commies even commie?
I mean, stalin claimed to support communism and you don't accept him as being "good enough"

What actions did mandela do to show his pro communism?

I would argue ending apartheid is more than you'll ever do, in the struggle for freedom. Of course there is still massive inequality, but it was a step.

My point is, he wasn't great, but we can acknowledge the good things he did do. But I personally believe that we should critique him from the "Great Man of History" standpoint, which is what you do. No politician will do truly advance communism, only the oppressed can do that.

But I'm not gonna be shitty about his death. Honestly, in the long run, it matters not, I care more about my own struggles than his. I just appreciate the ending of apartheid.

[Remus Bleys]

Could he have been more revolutionary in terms of opposing capitalism? Yeah. But he helped pioneer one of the most successful anti-racist struggles and for that deserves to be greatly commended.

RIP.

I want you too look at the current state of blacks in south africa and I dare you to show meme how its the most successful movement success.

[Remus Bleys]

I would argue ending apartheid is more than you'll ever do, in the struggle for freedom. Of course there is still massive inequality, but it was a step.

My point is, he wasn't great, but we can acknowledge the good things he did do. But I personally believe that we should critique him from the "Great Man of History" standpoint, which is what you do. No politician will do truly advance communism, only the oppressed can do that.

But I'm not gonna be shitty about his death. Honestly, in the long run, it matters not, I care more about my own struggles than his. I just appreciate the ending of apartheid.

I wasn't using the great man of history at all...
Nelson mandela represented the pacification and bourgeoisifctaion of the anti apartheid movement, simply stopping at ending apartheid, he represented the interests of middle class black south africans.

Where is great man of history used? Where did I say ending apartheid wasn't a good thing, and wasn't a struggle worth having?

[BIXX]

I wasn't using the great man of history at all...
Nelson mandela represented the pacification and bourgeoisifctaion of the anti apartheid movement, simply stopping at ending apartheid, he represented the interests of middle class black south africans.

Where is great man of history used? Where did I say ending apartheid wasn't a good thing, and wasn't a struggle worth having?

You seem to assume that, because he was by no means perfect, he was shitty. You basically made the argument "he didn't institute communism so screw him." Which assumes that he would have been able to do so, and that communism need not come from the masses.

You also fail to realize that many of us have criticized him in the past (I have, though not here, and I've seen others) and so when we are sad that someone who was able to end apartheid has died, you jump to the idea that everyone who does that is liberal/uncritical, but this is not the case.

Like I said, not perfect, but he accomplished more than you. So yes, critique him, but hold that in mind. Give praise where it's due.

I don't know. When push comes to shove, I don't care that much, as he was by no means revolutionary. But at least he was less reactionary than some people even on THIS FORUM.

However, yes, I do believe there is a critique to be made. But I think it's been covered and it's kinda beating a dead horse.

[Art Vandelay]

Eh I'm about as torn up over this as I was over Chavez, ie: not very much. He was definitely coolest when flirting armed struggle in his youth, but ultimately the man was a bourgeois politician/statesman.

[Remus Bleys]

Again, with this "he's more revolutionary than you shit" okay mr how do I agitate my local teacher union.
What does that have to do with anything? Joseph stalin industrialized russia, mao increased standards of living. Hell enver hoxhas movement made albania a somewhat okay place to live. These are all fantastic feats! And guess what? Theyre more than you'll ever do, so why don't you stop critiquing any of those figures because their dead and we all know symbols become less important than when they are dead.
Nor did I call anyone liberal itt. Yet.

And I also like how "he represented the bourgeoisification of the anti racist movement" which means the anti racist movement cannot actually do its point (unless you think we can make a more fair society in capitalism) gets turnecd into "he wasn't full communism1" its fucking dishonest of you.

[blake 3:17]

http://sacsis.org.za/a/cache/images/748c8423fab5c6499469efb6d9b1b783.300.300.jpg

[blake 3:17]

Eh I'm about as torn up over this as I was over Chavez, ie: not very much. He was definitely coolest when flirting armed struggle in his youth, but ultimately the man was a bourgeois politician statesman.

What bourgeois politician spends 30 years imprisoned??? Before they go into office??? That's bullshit. Brother was a freedom fighter.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela#Imprisonment

[blake 3:17]

I would argue ending apartheid is more than you'll ever do, in the struggle for freedom. Of course there is still massive inequality, but it was a step.

My point is, he wasn't great, but we can acknowledge the good things he did do. But I personally believe that we should critique him from the "Great Man of History" standpoint, which is what you do. No politician will do truly advance communism, only the oppressed can do that.

But I'm not gonna be shitty about his death. Honestly, in the long run, it matters not, I care more about my own struggles than his. I just appreciate the ending of apartheid.

Need to get off here but he was great.

Of course it was a mass freedom struggle, workers unrest, international solidarity and basic evil stupidity which undid South African fascism. And if you think Mandela had no role in that? He could've been killed at any time for years and years and years. To survive that with any grace is remarkable.

I'm surprised that people just refer to him as a nationalist or anti-racist??? wtf??? Are people on this board so hostile to oppressed people asserting themselves??? What would you suggest White South Africans do? Just say 'bourgeois nationalist'? HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa {evil laugh}

[Hermes]

What bourgeois politician spends 30 years imprisoned??? Before they go into office??? That's bullshit. Brother was a freedom fighter.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela#Imprisonment


...being imprisoned automatically makes you not bourgeois, or objectively 'revolutionary'?

[Art Vandelay]

What bourgeois politician spends 30 years imprisoned??? Before they go into office??? That's bullshit. Brother was a freedom fighter.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela#Imprisonment

What is your argument here? Is it:

(A)

Members of the bourgeoisie/bourgeois politicians cannot be imprisoned under capitalist society. Because if you are putting forth that argument, than your line of thinking has more issues on this matter than I originally thought and if you're not putting forth that argument, then it makes your entire response to me rather non-sensical.

or (B)

Nelson Mandela was the head of the South African state and (by extension, for your comment to make any sense), South Africa surpassed the capitalist mode of production, without any of us realizing it.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Regardless of your feelings on his Social Democratic politics, I think we can all agree that in terms of personal character Mandela was a very admirable person.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Yea I feel the same way about Mandela as Chavez. Not revolutionaries, but guys who'd I like to have a beer with.

[blake 3:17]

Just in from a South African comrade:


From www.amandla.org.za

Nelson Mandela

"Some are born great,
some achieve greatness,
and some have greatness thrust upon them."
William Shakespeare

Amandla! does not believe in miracles. Mandela is not immortal. He has lived the fullest of lives. Amandla! stands with his family, the ANC (the organisation he lived and died for), his closest comrades, especially the surviving Treason Trialists and Robben Island prisoners, the South African people as well as millions of people around the world to mark the passing of a great man.

Yet Mandela was no God, no saint but a man of the people. He reaffirms that people born of humble beginnings can rise and achieve extraordinary feats. Victory is possible against all odds.

Mandela had all Shakespeare’s attributes of greatness. It is with this sense that the South African nation, such as it exits, in its divisions, polarisations and inequities pays tribute to a man that dedicated his life to the liberation of his people.

People who never knew Mandela have woken up to a sense of numbness, you only feel when told of the death of one’s closest. This is how most of Venezuela felt with the death of Chavez. Strangely in this divided nation, a nation still under construction and at times deconstructing, Mandela’s passing will almost universally be mourned.

He was loved by South Africans, black and white, poor and rich, left and right. He was loved for his honesty and integrity. He was loved because he was neither Mbeki nor Zuma. He was a visionary, he had a grand project. He was political. He had a great sense of strategic timing. Yet he was not Machiavellian. He was loved because he was neither Mugabe nor Blair. His vision consumed his life. He was gentle. And like a good father to be kind, he sometimes could be cruel.

He was dignified and above all he had an immense love for his people and for the project of building a non-racial and non-sexist South Africa.

But above all he was an African man of conscience. He was a man of virtue. Virtue and conscience that made him so acclaimed globally since he led a nation at a time when virtue and morality were universally absent amongst global leaders. He slammed Bush and Blair for the war on Iraq: "What I am condemning is that one power, with a president who has no foresight and who cannot think properly, is now wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust.” For Blair he had these words: “He is the foreign minister of the United States. He is no longer Prime Minister of Britain."

He rose above bitterness and resentment. He was self-sacrificing and could reach out to his enemies and cross many divides. He was great because he was the great unifier. In many ways he was the architect of the New South Africa.

But for all this we must avoid myth making. Mandela was neither King nor Saint

Mandela was not alone. You only have to read Bertolt Brecht’s great poem to know. Questions From a Worker Who Reads (alongside)

The struggle to liberate South Africa was a collective effort. Moreover it was the power of the most downtrodden, the workers in the factories, the poor in the community, working class women and youth that brought the Apartheid government, if not completely to its knees – at least to negotiate the terms of the end of their racist system.

Every struggle needs a vehicle, a movement with a leadership that can give political direction, take the difficult strategic and tactical choices. Mandela’s ANC came to predominate. Yet Mandela was the first to acknowledge the role of a broad range of movements that made up the struggle for national liberation and the mass democratic movement.

And while Mandela was the one to initiate talks with the Apartheid government, he bound himself to the collective leadership of the ANC. He took initiative, he led but he did so as part of a collective. He was an organisational man. He was at pains to explain he was a product of the ANC He was a man of the black, green and gold but he could reach beyond organisational boundaries.

In the words of Fikile Bam, a Robben Island prisoner from the left-wing National Liberation Front:

“Mandela had this quality of being able to keep people together. It didn't matter whether you were PAC or ANC. or what, we all tended to congregate around him. Even his critics -- and he had them -- deferred to him at the end of the day as a moral leader. He still has that quality. Without him I can't visualize how the transition would have gone.''

Yes, millions of words will be spoken and written on Mandela’s legacy, now, in the months to come, next year and thereafter. And we will struggle to do this legacy justice. The most difficult part will be to capture the essential Mandela going beyond myth-making while accurately assessing the contradictory nature of that legacy.

For the present cannot be understood without understanding the past and not all that is wrong with current day SA can be put at the door of Zuma or Mbeki.

The negotiated settlement that brought about democratic SA on the basis of one person one vote will be regarded as Mandela’s greatest achievement. It avoided the scorched earth path of blood letting which we now see in Syria.

''His goal always was the deracialization of South African society and the creation of a liberal democracy, for that end he was willing to make compromises with people of different views. He was able to concentrate on his goal with utter conviction and lucidity, and he was a man of extreme discipline.''

And yet it is those compromises that are now coming apart at the seams. The unresolved social inequality that has given rise, in the words of Thabo Mbeki to South Africa as a country of two nations: one white and relatively prosperous, the second black and poor.

Mandela’s legacy will also have to be weighed by the fact that SA is more divided than ever as a result of inequality and social exclusion. The rich are richer and the poor poorer. The great unifier could undertake great symbolic acts of reconciliation to pacify the white nation but because, by definition, this required sacrificing the redistribution of wealth, reconciliation with the whites was done at the expense of the vast majority of black people.

Mandela was great but not so great that he could bridge the social divide rooted in 21st century capitalism that has given us the era of the 1 per centers. It is the unfortunate timing of SA’s transition occurring as it does in the period in which global power became rooted in the global corporation, empowered through the rules of neoliberal globalisation. Reconciliation required the abandonment of ANC policy as articulated by Mandela on his release from jail, “nationalisation of the mines, banks and monopoly industry is the policy of the ANC and the change or modification of our views in this regard is inconceivable.”

Yet it is this abandonment of nationalization, nationalization symbolizing the redistribution of wealth, which was dictated by the needs of reconciliation not just with the White establishment but with global capitalism. In the words of Mandela in an interview with Anthony Lewsis: ''Private sector development remains the motive force of growth and development.'' His encounters with the global elite at Davos, the home of the World Economic Forum, convinced him that compromises were needed to be made with the financiers. It was also the late night encounters with the captains of South African capitalism such as Harry Oppenheimer that reinforced his belief that there was no alternative but the capitalist road.

In the words of Ronnie Kasrils: “That was the time from 1991–1996 that the battle for the soul of the ANC got underway and was lost to corporate power and influence. That was the fatal turning point. I will call it our Faustian moment when we became entrapped – some today crying out that we ‘sold our people down the river’”.

It is precisely this capitalist road that has proved such a disaster and which may ultimately destroy Mandela’s life’s work of the achievement of one person one vote in a united non-racial, non sexist South Africa. To do justice to Mandela’s life of dedication and sacrifice for equality between black and white the struggle must continue.

It now has to focus on overcoming inequality and achieving social justice. In this struggle we will need the greatness and wisdom of many Mandelas. We will need an organisation dedicated to mobilising all South African black and white for the liberation of the wealth of this country from the hands of a tiny elite. We will need a movement like Mandela’s ANC, a movement based on a collective leadership with the combined qualities of Walter Sisulu, Govan Mbeki, Ahmed Kathrada, Fatima Meer, Albertina Sisulu, Chris Hani, Ruth First, Joe Slovo, Robert Sobukwe, Steve Biko, IB Tabata, Neville Alexander and the many greats that led our struggle for national liberation. But most importantly we will need the people who take their lives into their own hands and become their own liberators.

Is that not what Nelson Mandela fought for?

[Sea]

RIP in peace, Nelly!

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

people judging his whole life on his 5 years of presidency when he was in his 70s is a tad unfair. You can't just brush under the fact that he spend decades in prison for his anti-racist principles, and that he spend the overwhelming majority of his life helping to lay the groundwork for the end of apartheid.

Bourgeois president or not, he was no capitalist, he was a friend and, even if he's no hero in terms of his politics as president, he always came across as being an extraordinarily strong character, which on its own is enough for me to want to show some respect.

[BIXX]

Again, with this "he's more revolutionary than you shit" okay mr how do I agitate my local teacher union.

I was actually asking more if it was worth it, and if so, what recommendations there might be (if you read the thread). But that is besides the point, as my next points will hopefully show. And yeah, I probably won't get shit done in my life, however it can't hurt to try. And critiquing Mandela, which has been done over and over again, is a waste of time.

Plus, you don't know what I am doing outside of the possible agitation, so you can't use that as some "you ain't doing shit" card.


What does that have to do with anything? Joseph stalin industrialized russia, mao increased standards of living. Hell enver hoxhas movement made albania a somewhat okay place to live. These are all fantastic feats!

And for each of those feats, I can name another that was fucking gruesome. I can't say I can do the same with Mandela, but I will look more, for you.


And guess what? Theyre more than you'll ever do, so why don't you stop critiquing any of those figures because their dead and we all know symbols become less important than when they are dead.

I don't actively oppress folks (which Stalin and Mao and Enver did). Of course Mandela did some bad shit (being in a bourgeois world kinda does that to you) but he did more good than harm. On the flip side, the three you cited hurt more people than they did.


Nor did I call anyone liberal itt. Yet.

The implication seemed to be there, but if I read too much into that, then whatever. Other points stand independent.


And I also like how "he represented the bourgeoisification of the anti racist movement" which means the anti racist movement cannot actually do its point (unless you think we can make a more fair society in capitalism) gets turned into "he wasn't full communism1" its fucking dishonest of you.

Being in the position he was? Yeah, the anti-racist movement (from his end) couldn't achieve it's full goals. However, to say shit cannot improve is incorrect. Of course things will never be GOOD, but I will say that my position now as a student where my rights are more respected rather than being beaten (which actually happened to several kids at my school) by teachers is much better and allows me to struggle a lot more when I have less shit to worry about. I imagine that apartheid being gone (but not racism, of course) helps blacks struggle more.

And about "he wasn't full communist" thing, that is what your argument essentially implies: nothing that isn't communist can be good. Of course, it won't be "perfect", but fuck, having someone trying to do some shit for you up top never hurts. Again, having a teacher who doesn't beat me allowed me to grow and learn my strengths and UTILIZE THEM, which is what (to an extent) Mandela was able to do.

Furthermore, I am under the impression that a lot of people decide to shit on other people to play the "more revolutionary than you" game. Which is what I am really upset about. Not so much that people critique Mandela (as he is certainly a valid person to critique) but that they wanna make others seem lesser for not doing right after he died. If this isn't the case, then I'm sorry, but that's the impression I tend to get.

In summary, is it really worth your time to try and be "more revolutionary"?

Anyway, I'm out, this thread already turned into a shitfest and that was partially my fault, sorry guys.

[blake 3:17]

@EchoShock -- This evening I've spoken to or emailed or whatever communicated with anarchists, socialists, communists, trotskyists, stalinists and maoists who all lament the death of Mandela and admire him. That includes several comrades in South Africa who are not in the ANC. He was a great man and the struggle he represented was a great struggle.

Much respect to Mandela. Much respect to all those who walk in his footsteps.

[Devrim]

What bourgeois politician spends 30 years imprisoned??? Before they go into office??? That's bullshit. Brother was a freedom fighter.

Because, no bourgeoise politicians spend time in prison. By that token then I will presume that Tayyip Erdoğan, the Turkish prime minister who was at the head of putting down the spring protest movement, is a revolutionary.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Honestly, I would never call him perfect, but the dude did a lot in his life, and as a picture above noted, supported communism at one point.

There was nothing in any way communist about the SACP or the policies supported by Mandela.

Devrim

[blake 3:17]

A lovely piece by Desmond Tutu:
I met Madiba once, fleetingly, in the early 1950s. I was training to be a teacher at the Bantu Normal College near Pretoria, which we jokingly referred to as "Bantu Normal College for normal Bantu", and he was the adjudicator in our debating contest against the Jan Hofmeyr School of Social Work. He was tall, debonair and cut a dashing figure.

Unbelievably, the next time I was to see him was 40 years later, in February 1990, when he and Winnie spent his first night of freedom under our roof at Bishopscourt in Cape Town.

http://mg.co.za/article/2013-12-06-00-tutu-we-thank-god-for-madiba

[Devrim]

Bourgeois president or not, he was no capitalist, he was a friend and, even if he's no hero in terms of his politics as president, he always came across as being an extraordinarily strong character, which on its own is enough for me to want to show some respect.

A capitalist is exactly what he was. He was a multi-millionaire who presumably lived on the interest dirived from this capital. What other definition of capitalist do you want?

Devrim

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

*sigh* The sadly predictable to and fro between those who respect what he was / what he stood for and fought for and those that don't give a shit because he wasn't a communist / anarchist or whatever.

Anywho, rest in peace Tata. Amandla! :)

[The Intransigent Faction]

*sigh* The sadly predictable to and fro between those who respect what he was / what he stood for and fought for and those that don't give a shit because he wasn't a communist / anarchist or whatever.

Meh. You should see some of the comment sections in the stream of news articles reporting his death, calling him a terrorist/killer/accusing him of supporting bombings and 'necklacing'.

Compared to that, I'll take the sectarian squabbles here any day.

Anyway...he was not a communist, but he was a good human being who helped bring down an oppressive regime which had a modus operandi of segregation, and suffered for it. Healing racial tensions is absolutely crucial if there's to be any talk of socialism.

That and while words are one thing and actions another,


Like slavery and apartheid, poverty is not natural. It is man-made and it can be overcome and eradicated by the actions of human beings.

I've personally seen words like this turn otherwise apolitical or 'moderate' people on to more leftist thinking, because of the weight his words carry for them.

May he rest in peace. :(

[ed miliband]

it is not sectarianism to critically assess the legacy of a man currently being deified by the global bourgeoisie - and for saving capitalism in south africa, no less! you can feel revulsion at apartheid, you can even respect him as a man... doesn't mean you have to fall into the trap of hero-worship and uncritical praise.

somebody said elsewhere that mandela ceased to be political and became "pure ideology". bit pretentious but i think there's some truth to that.

[Devrim]

Anyway...he was not a communist, but he was a good human being who helped bring down an oppressive regime which had a modus operandi of segregation, and suffered for it. Healing racial tensions is absolutely crucial if there's to be any talk of socialism.

This is bourgeois ideology exemplified. There is no coment about what forces Mandela represented in society. Just the abstract assertion that he was a 'good human being'. It is petit-bourgeois individualism takn to extremes. Classes and their struggles are just ignored and an individual person is just a 'good human being'.

The idea that racial tensions have to be 'healed' before there is any talk of socialism is equally bourgeois. It envisages a capitalist society in which the racial question can be solved and their can be perfect bourgeoise political equality...and then we can talk about socialism.

The working class in South Africa was much stronger in 80s than it is today. Mandela was one of the main ideologues acting against a potential workers revolution in South Africa. His direct political descendants are these days responsible for shooting mine workers and attacking working class living standards. A portion of this blood is on his hands.

Devrim

[piet11111]

What bourgeois politician spends 30 years imprisoned??? Before they go into office??? That's bullshit. Brother was a freedom fighter.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela#Imprisonment

Come on the Apartheid regime was in its last days and the bourgeois turned to someone they could trust to defend capitalism and "respect the private property of the whites" in South Africa.

And that is exactly what Mandela did for them.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

This is bourgeois ideology exemplified. There is no coment about what forces Mandela represented in society. Just the abstract assertion that he was a 'good human being'. It is petit-bourgeois individualism takn to extremes. Classes and their struggles are just ignored and an individual person is just a 'good human being'.

If Mandela had never been born, or if his personal circumstances had led to a different kind of life, then the social and political circumstances that lead to his ascendancy would have occurred to someone else.

The fact that Mandela ended up as the "face" of the anti-apartheid movement, and not someone else, in no way invalidates his achievements. He was a good (not perfect) human being, and he owes his prominence to the mass struggles of others.


The idea that racial tensions have to be 'healed' before there is any talk of socialism is equally bourgeois. It envisages a capitalist society in which the racial question can be solved and their can be perfect bourgeoise political equality...and then we can talk about socialism.

Really? Because my impression was that a society without apartheid is better than a society with it. Is this incorrect? Were Mandela and all the rest who struggled against apartheid wrong to do so, given that, as you claim below, the working class in South Africa ended up weakening?


The working class in South Africa was much stronger in 80s than it is today. Mandela was one of the main ideologues acting against a potential workers revolution in South Africa. His direct political descendants are these days responsible for shooting mine workers and attacking working class living standards. A portion of this blood is on his hands.

I don't think you are being fair here. On the one hand you excoriate those who praise Mandela for engaging in "petit-bourgeois individualism", and yet in the same post you say that Mandela bears personal responsibility for the bad stuff that happened after him.

So in your view, individuals can only be given credit for negative influences?

[Remus Bleys]

Plus, you don't know what I am doing outside of the possible agitation, so you can't use that as some "you ain't doing shit" card.
But you can do that with me?



And for each of those feats, I can name another that was fucking gruesome. I can't say I can do the same with Mandela, but I will look more, for you.
thanks



I don't actively oppress folks (which Stalin and Mao and Enver did). Of course Mandela did some bad shit (being in a bourgeois world kinda does that to you) but he did more good than harm. On the flip side, the three you cited hurt more people than they did.
from my link "In practice ‘liberation’ and an ANC government has marginally increased the ranks of an African middle class. It has also meant repression, the remilitarisation of the police, the banning of protests, and attacks on workers, as in, for example, the Marikana miners’ strike in which 44 workers were killed and dozens seriously injured."
Yeah... being the head of a bourgeois state does mean Mandela had actively oppressed people.



The implication seemed to be there, but if I read too much into that, then whatever. Other points stand independent.
No, this isn't an instance of the left being liberal i think, this is an instance of them being ignorant of the facts and clinging to something.



Being in the position he was? Yeah, the anti-racist movement (from his end) couldn't achieve it's full goals. However, to say shit cannot improve is incorrect. Of course things will never be GOOD, but I will say that my position now as a student where my rights are more respected rather than being beaten (which actually happened to several kids at my school) by teachers is much better and allows me to struggle a lot more when I have less shit to worry about. I imagine that apartheid being gone (but not racism, of course) helps blacks struggle more.
Yeah it probably does. But I'm not going to credit Mandela with ending apartheid, im going to credit the black working class. My position is that Mandela had stifled this movement.


And about "he wasn't full communist" thing, that is what your argument essentially implies: nothing that isn't communist can be good. Of course, it won't be "perfect", but fuck, having someone trying to do some shit for you up top never hurts. Again, having a teacher who doesn't beat me allowed me to grow and learn my strengths and UTILIZE THEM, which is what (to an extent) Mandela was able to do.
AGAIN, my position is that Mandela had stifled the anti-apartheid movement, preventing it from completing its ultimate goal, the end of racism. Yeah its nice that apartheid was ended. But its like the lgbt movement getting corporatized. Yeah, sure, some gains were made by them, but these gains could have been made without them and in fact, they sacrificed the ultimate goal of the movement in order to get this gains. So, yeah, i think without the black middle class getting involved apartheid could still have been ended, and in fact had they not gotten involved, south africa would be years ahead. Does that make sense or are you still thinking my argument is simply "HE ISNT COMMUNIST111"


Furthermore, I am under the impression that a lot of people decide to shit on other people to play the "more revolutionary than you" game. Which is what I am really upset about. Not so much that people critique Mandela (as he is certainly a valid person to critique) but that they wanna make others seem lesser for not doing right after he died. If this isn't the case, then I'm sorry, but that's the impression I tend to get.
No its not the fucking case.

In summary, is it really worth your time to try and be "more revolutionary"?
I would imagine its worth my time to be revolutionary

Anyway, I'm out, this thread already turned into a shitfest and that was partially my fault, sorry guys.
Not really on both of those.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

My biggest regret about the man is that he let the fucking white-supremacists run free.

"Oh, are you the nazi secret police that have been murdering and torturing non-white South Africans? Don't worry, you can keep your position - peace and love!" As if taking care of the racists in parliament would equal 'racism towards whites'.

A preferable outcome would be that white supremacists in positions of power were given an ultimatum of exile or the guillotine, with those responsible for crimes against humanity during Apartheid sent straight to the chopping block. Of course, if he did that, the media outlets that kissed Boer ass no more than thirty years ago wouldn't be showering him with praise like they do today.

Still, a great person - not a communist, but most certainly progressive. Rest in peace.

[Comrade #138672]

http://en.internationalism.org/worldrevolution/201307/8951/mandela-human-face-capitalism
I'm going to go ahead and be the guy who posts this.
Leftists should get over themselves.Thanks for the wake up call.

[ed miliband]

the line people keep trotting out "eh, he wan't a communist, but..." is whack. nobody is criticising him for 'not being a communist' - it's like gilles dauve says at the beginning of 'communism and capitalism', to paraphrase, the problem with mandela was not that he was not a communist, but that he was a capitalist. it's simple.

i mean, i'm sure he was a lovely man when it came down to it, but there are many lovely people across the world. defending him on how nice or decent or whatever you perceived him to be is also weak.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

the line people keep trotting out "eh, he wan't a communist, but..." is whack. nobody is criticising him for 'not being a communist' - it's like gilles dauve says at the beginning of 'communism and capitalism', to paraphrase, the problem with mandela was not that he was not a communist, but that he was a capitalist. it's simple.

It's not simple, though. He certainly was no capitalist for most of his life. Probably the first 7 decades of his life he was no capitalist. He was an anti-racist who made a significant contribution towards ending apartheid, and a prisoner for nearly 3 of those decades.

I don't think he can be thought of as a hero because of his actions in office in his latter years but, c'mon, let's not forget the struggles the guy was a part of for so much of the 20th century. That alone is worth remembering.

[ed miliband]

It's not simple, though. He certainly was no capitalist for most of his life. Probably the first 7 decades of his life he was no capitalist. He was an anti-racist who made a significant contribution towards ending apartheid, and a prisoner for nearly 3 of those decades.

I don't think he can be thought of as a hero because of his actions in office in his latter years but, c'mon, let's not forget the struggles the guy was a part of for so much of the 20th century. That alone is worth remembering.

assuming this is true - and i think it ignores that mandela was no pauper when he got locked up, but an attorney with his own law firm - he's not currently being spoken about around the globe because of the time he spent in jail. of course, that's a part of it, but supposing he died in jail, we wouldn't be talking about him now. his "latter years" are the reason he's across every news channel and paper, and the name on every bourgeois stateswoman's lips. i don't think it's so easy to separate the two.

[Comrade Samuel]

He is currently being lionised by the media as the saviour of South African capitalism.

Perhaps he was but I still found this interesting....

http://i.imgur.com/RixZ9vA.jpg

[The Intransigent Faction]

This is bourgeois ideology exemplified. There is no coment about what forces Mandela represented in society. Just the abstract assertion that he was a 'good human being'. It is petit-bourgeois individualism takn to extremes. Classes and their struggles are just ignored and an individual person is just a 'good human being'.

It didn't feel necessary to preface every mention of his name with "He was a capitalist". That's all.


The idea that racial tensions have to be 'healed' before there is any talk of socialism is equally bourgeois. It envisages a capitalist society in which the racial question can be solved and their can be perfect bourgeoise political equality...and then we can talk about socialism.

No, it doesn't. What it does mean is that any genuine struggle for socialism can't be carried out when people are segregated and focused on hating each other based on the colour of their skin.


The working class in South Africa was much stronger in 80s than it is today. Mandela was one of the main ideologues acting against a potential workers revolution in South Africa. His direct political descendants are these days responsible for shooting mine workers and attacking working class living standards. A portion of this blood is on his hands.

Devrim

The point about his political descendants was covered pretty well by someone else. As for the working class in the 80s, who does this refer to? Are you really suggesting they would be better off segregated?

I am in no way defending his role in protecting capital. My original post was more of a venting of frustration at his demonization by right-wingers, and to point out that he did do some good in helping to end apartheid, and wasn't meant as a thorough analysis of his relation to the class structure in South Africa, which does definitely merit criticism that had been given in good detail already.

[#FF0000]

A word of advice, don't look on Stormfront, the cancerous pricks are being especially vile tonight.


I bet the Neo-Nazis are having beers right now.

Can't imagine why anyone would care bout that, though.

"heh looks like that guy who struggled against racism and won and then lead a long happy life well into his 90's is dead now. heh heh heh we win!!!"

[freecommunist]

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

Guess that makes me interesting as well. Well maybe not.

"The ANC has never at any period in its history …. condemned capitalist society."
The meaning of these words, proclaimed by Nelson Mandela at his trial in 1964, has now been spelt out in workers’ blood.

[blake 3:17]

Mandela will never, ever be your minstrel.

Dear revisionists, Mandela will never, ever be your minstrel. Over the next few days you will try so, so hard to make him something he was not, and you will fail. You will try to smooth him, to sandblast him, to take away his Malcolm X. You will try to hide his anger from view. Right now, you are anxiously pacing the corridors of your condos and country estates, looking for the right words, the right tributes, the right-wing tributes. You will say that Mandela was not about race. You will say that Mandela was not about politics. You will say that Mandela was about nothing but one love, you will try to reduce him to a lilting reggae tune. “Let’s get together, and feel alright.” Yes, you will do that.

You will make out that apartheid was just some sort of evil mystical space disease that suddenly fell from the heavens and settled on all of us, had us all, black or white, in its thrall, until Mandela appeared from the ether to redeem us. You will try to make Mandela a Magic Negro and you will fail. You will say that Mandela stood above all for forgiveness whilst scuttling swiftly over the details of the perversity that he had the grace to forgive.
You will try to make out that apartheid was some horrid spontaneous historical aberration, and not the logical culmination of centuries of imperial arrogance. Yes, you will try that too. You will imply or audaciously state that its evils ended the day Mandela stepped out of jail. You will fold your hands and say the blacks have no-one to blame now but themselves.

Well, try hard as you like, and you’ll fail. Because Mandela was about politics and he was about race and he was about freedom and he was even about force, and he did what he felt he had to do and given the current economic inequality in South Africa he might even have died thinking he didn’t do nearly enough of it. And perhaps the greatest tragedy of Mandela’s life isn’t that he spent almost thirty years jailed by well-heeled racists who tried to shatter millions of spirits through breaking his soul, but that there weren’t or aren’t nearly enough people like him.

Because that’s South Africa now, a country long ago plunged headfirst so deep into the sewage of racial hatred that, for all Mandela’s efforts, it is still retching by the side of the swamp. Just imagine if Cape Town were London. Imagine seeing two million white people living in shacks and mud huts along the M25 as you make your way into the city, where most of the biggest houses and biggest jobs are occupied by a small, affluent to wealthy group of black people. There are no words for the resentment that would still simmer there.

Nelson Mandela was not a god, floating elegantly above us and saving us. He was utterly, thoroughly human, and he did all he did in spite of people like you. There is no need to name you because you know who you are, we know who you are, and you know we know that too. You didn’t break him in life, and you won’t shape him in death. You will try, wherever you are, and you will fail.

http://www.okwonga.com/?p=869

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

assuming this is true - and i think it ignores that mandela was no pauper when he got locked up, but an attorney with his own law firm - he's not currently being spoken about around the globe because of the time he spent in jail. of course, that's a part of it, but supposing he died in jail, we wouldn't be talking about him now. his "latter years" are the reason he's across every news channel and paper, and the name on every bourgeois stateswoman's lips. i don't think it's so easy to separate the two.

When was he no pauper in jail? I'm curious.

I should be clear - Mandela is no hero of mine. I just think that, for what he did in his lifetime overall, he deserves respect, not the scorn that some people decide to reserve for him because he wasn't this or that.

To me it's quite clear that he spent the overwhelming majority of his life fighting for a cause that was to improve the lives of south african workers immeasurably.

[Queen Mab]

You will try to smooth him, to sandblast him, to take away his Malcolm X.

I think Mandela took his Malcolm X away himself.

[Devrim]

It's not simple, though. He certainly was no capitalist for most of his life. Probably the first 7 decades of his life he was no capitalist. He was an anti-racist who made a significant contribution towards ending apartheid, and a prisoner for nearly 3 of those decades.

He was hardly a proletarian. He was born into the Thembu royal family, and his father was a chief and hereditary adviser to the King (a position Mandela would have inherited).


I don't think he can be thought of as a hero because of his actions in office in his latter years but, c'mon, let's not forget the struggles the guy was a part of for so much of the 20th century. That alone is worth remembering.

There were real struggle, but what was Mandela's role in them? He was a second rate nationalist guerrilla, who became a symbol of a movement when he was imprisoned.

Devrim

[Devrim]

It didn't feel necessary to preface every mention of his name with "He was a capitalist". That's all.

He was a capitalist though. Perhaps it wouldn't be necessary to point it out if virtually the entire left weren't following the world bourgeois media in their hero worship.


No, it doesn't. What it does mean is that any genuine struggle for socialism can't be carried out when people are segregated and focused on hating each other based on the colour of their skin.

To struggle for socialism the working class must overcome the divisions within itself. This is self evidently true. That does not mean that racism has to be eliminated from society before there can be a struggle for socialism.


The point about his political descendants was covered pretty well by someone else.

Yes, they shoot striking workers.


As for the working class in the 80s, who does this refer to? Are you really suggesting they would be better off segregated?

I think that it is quite well known that living standards for the working class and the poor are lower today than they were in the apartheid era, so materially people are worse off now. This isn't confined to South Africa though. It is a world wide phenomenon. Workers in all countries have been underact and have seen reductions in living standards.

The conclusion to be drawn from this is not that they were better off segregated, but that for all its fine words about dignity and improving the lot of South Africans, the ANC in power has not only not managed to improve living standards, but has actually seen them decrease. Just like in other capitalist countries. That is because it is just another capitalist party.

Devrim

[ed miliband]

When was he no pauper in jail? I'm curious.

I should be clear - Mandela is no hero of mine. I just think that, for what he did in his lifetime overall, he deserves respect, not the scorn that some people decide to reserve for him because he wasn't this or that.

To me it's quite clear that he spent the overwhelming majority of his life fighting for a cause that was to improve the lives of south african workers immeasurably.

he didn't just get thrown into jail, did he? from nothing. as i pointed out, he was an attorney with his own law firm, and as devrim pointed out, he was born into the thembu royal family. now we can have a really boring technical discussion about what class that would make him, but as devrim put it - hardly proletarian.

and as i said, nobody is pouring scorn on him because he "wasn't this or that" but for what he was. you're disputing that by saying he was only that for a small portion of his life, i'm saying it's not so easy to separate the two.

btw, if anybody is interested, this is a really interesting take on mandela, you can see just how true it is to say he rescued south african capitalism:

http://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2013/12/06/mandelas-economic-legacy/

[ed miliband]

how incredibly telling is this, from his trial:


“As far as the Communist Party is concerned, and if I understand its policy correctly, it stands for the establishment of a State based on the principles of Marxism. Although it is prepared to work for the Freedom Charter, as a short term solution to the problems created by white supremacy, it regards the Freedom Charter as the beginning, and not the end, of its programme.

“The ANC, unlike the Communist Party, admitted Africans only as members. Its chief goal was, and is, for the African people to win unity and full political rights. The Communist Party’s main aim, on the other hand, was to remove the capitalists and to replace them with a working-class government. The Communist Party sought to emphasise class distinctions whilst the ANC seeks to harmonise them. This is, My Lord, a vital distinction.

“It is true that there has often been close co-operation between the ANC and the Communist Party. But co-operation is merely proof of a common goal – in this case the removal of white supremacy – and is not proof of a complete community of interests.”

“My Lord, the history of the world is full of similar examples. Perhaps the most striking illustration is to be found in the co-operation between Great Britain, the United States of America, and the Soviet Union in the fight against Hitler. Nobody but Hitler would have dared to suggest that such co-operation turned Churchill or Roosevelt into communists or communist tools, or that Britain and America were working to bring about a communist world.”

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

He was hardly a proletarian. He was born into the Thembu royal family, and his father was a chief and hereditary adviser to the King (a position Mandela would have inherited).

But by thembu royal family, you don't really mean the sort of royal family that lives in buck house or whatever.

Essentially the thembu people, if I understand it correctly, were a pre-capitalistic clan. That Mandela was born into this clan didn't really mean much in the modern sense of 'monarchy', since to all intents and purposes he wasn't a royal - nobody in his family was educated, could read etc. Further, his dad was appointed and quickly sacked as a chief of the thembu people.



There were real struggle, but what was Mandela's role in them? He was a second rate nationalist guerrilla, who became a symbol of a movement when he was imprisoned.

Devrim

What makes you say he was second-rate? I imagine, semantics and technicalities aside, this is the real crux of where we disagree. I would actually say that, for all his fault as a President, he was politically something of a genius.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

how incredibly telling is this, from his trial:

For what it's worth, I think at the time the Communist Party should have supported the Africans-only membership policy as a strategic move, in a way that the black panthers were generally african-american only during the 1960s.

But yeah you are right, Mandela was no communist. I hope you don't think i'm supporting him as such.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Also ed whilst i'm loathe to make a third post, I just want to make a couple of comments on the article (http://thenextrecession.wordpress.com/2013/12/06/mandelas-economic-legacy/) you linked to.

Firstly, i'd agree with its main conclusions. The ANC has proven itself, as we can i'm sure all agree, to be a corrupted body that has bent backwards over the past 15 years or so to capital's will.

However, there are two problems with the article:

One is technical in nature. Namely - what data is he using to support his graphs? As far as I can see, the data is un-substantiated and, until it is substantiated, only a very trusting (read: naive) person would use such a blog post in support of their argument because the argument of the blog post itself is based on nothing verifiable. It is basically conjecture.

The second point is a bit more important, from an analytical point of view. The article starts by talking about the anti-apartheid struggles of African people:


The death of Nelson Mandela reminds us of the great victory that the black masses of South Africa achieved over the vicious, cruel and regressive apartheid system first encouraged by British imperialism and then adopted by a reactionary and racist white South African ruling class to preserve the privileges of a tiny few. Mandela spent 27 years in prison and the people he represented fought a long and hard battle to overthrow a grotesque regime, backed by the major imperialist powers, including the US, for decades.

However, in literally the next sentence, it then decides to dismiss the importance of the role played by activists and resistance fighters in the end of apartheid, ascribing causation to top-down decisions by capital:


But the timing of the end of apartheid was also due to a change of attitude by the white ruling class in South Africa and the ruling classes of the major capitalist states. The white leadership under FW de Klerk reversed decades of previous policy and opted to release Mandela and go for black majority government that could restore labour discipline and revive profitability.

I have to question the historical veracity of such an assertion from what i'm assuming is meant to be a leftist blog, that such radical, permanent change in society, in terms of the overthrowing of racist structures, happened at all because of the will of the ruling classes. One of the things that we know as leftists is that, generally speaking, any gains we make under capitalism come through struggle. To ascribe agency in progressive causes to the capitalist class seems to me to not chime with reality. I don't think we can accept such an argument.

[Devrim]

But by thembu royal family, you don't really mean the sort of royal family that lives in buck house or whatever.

Essentially the thembu people, if I understand it correctly, were a pre-capitalistic clan. That Mandela was born into this clan didn't really mean much in the modern sense of 'monarchy', since to all intents and purposes he wasn't a royal - nobody in his family was educated, could read etc. Further, his dad was appointed and quickly sacked as a chief of the thembu people.

I am not an expert on Southern African clans, but he certainly wasn't a proletarian. He attended private English style boarding schools (racial segregated of course), and was being educated to be councillor to the King. Yes, his father had been sacked from this position for corruption, but it was a hereditary position, and Mandela stood to inherit.

I think that you read too much into the fact that his parents were illiterates. You are judging by today's standards. One of my grandmothers, who would have been born later than Mandela's parents, couldn't read. Mass literacy is a relatively modern phenomenon, and we are talking about the parents of a man born nearly 100 years ago.



What makes you say he was second-rate? I imagine, semantics and technicalities aside, this is the real crux of where we disagree. I would actually say that, for all his fault as a President, he was politically something of a genius.

Umkhonto we Sizwe was pretty second rate. When compared with other national liberation movements of the period, it was small weak and ineffective. I don't quite see why you view him as a genius politically. I genuinely can't think of one think that brings that term to mind.

Devrim

[The Feral Underclass]

Honestly, the way people have been going on, it's almost as if they forgot 95 year old people die.

[tachosomoza]

Just finished re-reading Long Walk to Freedom. Recommended to any who haven't read it.

[bricolage]

"The killing of the youth in struggle that started in 1976 is not yet finished."
http://abahlali.org/node/13303

[Tolstoy]

What im enjoying is watching the people on Ted Cruz's facebook page yelling at the guy for writing something nicew about Mandela, lamenting the fact that this "RINO senator" loves "communists"

[bcbm]

skimmed the thread. don't feel like 'picking a side' and shitting on him/lauding him or whatever it is people are doing here. he obviously has a lot of faults. i still he had an interested life and have some measure of respect for the man and the struggle he was part of. heard obama's eulogy on 'democracy now!' today on the radio and thought it was a very good speech and just a real shame it was obama giving it for another politician.