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View Full Version : got into a debate with "pan afrikan eductaion" would like feedback



RedBen
3rd December 2013, 10:01
long story short, a native american friend recommended this page. they do post informative things, but, they do seem to post alot about racial segregation and seem to support it. what is fucking with me is i cannot understand how another member of a minority group would further back themselves into a little corner by being a racist AND homophobe. i understand reactionaries, but christ, it was almost as bad as arguing with a white surpremacist. this is literally it word for word.

Pan-Afrikan Education · 4,567 like this
2 hours ago ·
"I mean nothing against any sincere whites when I say that as members of black organizations, generally whites' very presence subtly renders the black organization automatically less effective. Even the best white members will slow down the Negroes' discovery of what they need to do, and particularly of what they can do-for themselves, working by themselves, among their own kind, in their own communities."
-Malcolm X
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13 people like this.

xxxx this why i am done with this page. alot of racist anti-non-black going on. my black fiance caught hell for being with a latino. like she is somehow betraying her whole race because she loves me as much as i love her. reality check, not all black people feel that they cannot mix with others. much like not all whites do. this perpetuates segregation. funny thing, i caught alot of shit from living in black neighborhoods for "being a whiteboy"(i'm not), and she has for being lightskinned(thinkin she white and bourgie). not all black people support the "we cannot mix with outsiders" mentality, and even if they did(which they don't), in america they would be too small numerically to have that real an impact. this is 2013, stop the reactionary separatism, or die off as a fringe element that doesn't speak for the majority. black people not only befriend "others" but also fall in love and marry "outsiders". i also seen homophobic comments on here. keep putting your separatist movement in a smaller corner. gay people are people and there is nothing wrong with them. alot of the black panthers were maoists, and communists reject racism and homophobia. get your minds right.
Like · Reply · 2 hours ago

Pan-Afrikan Education If you are not an Afrikan then this page was not even designed for you first of all. Second of all, I can tell by your defensive response that you may have a black fiance , but you know nothing about the situation Afrikan people are in. It’s 2013 and we are in the same position we were in during the 1960s. If you think marrying “outsiders” will help black people then I suggest you check out Brazil, the so-called mixed racial democracy. You also prove Malcolm X’s point about why whites who think they are being sincere in helping blacks really only hinder our progress. Your vision of black success is a world in which blacks can marry whites, not one in which blacks have any type of meaningful economic or political control when it comes to their destiny.
Like · 2 · 26 minutes ago · Edited

Pan-Afrikan Education And for the record Latino is not a race. Latinos are typically descendants of Europeans, Native Americans, Afrikans or a combination of the three. So just because you think you are a Latino does not mean that you aren’t white.
Like · 1 · about an hour ago

xxx i never though this page was about me, i am a believer in african independence and freedom from exploitation from europe and the west, much like gaddafi believed. i also believe in latin american independence from the eurocentric EU and NATO. second, i do not believe that black people marrying non blacks equals success, not at all. i don't believe it is any kind of "upgrade" or "plus", i only mention my better half because the amount of flak we caught by racists. and a black person hurling a slur is still a racist. i am not some racism apologist who thinks we live in a post racist or imperialist world, i just think any racism is wrong. true, white racism is institutionalized and by comparison black racists are harmless and near non existent. to this " You also prove Malcolm X’s point about why whites who think they are being sincere in helping blacks really only hinder our progress. Your vision of black success is a world in which blacks can marry whites, not one in which blacks have any type of meaningful economic or political control when it comes to their destiny." i do not PROVE shit(malcolm went away from black ultra nationalism later in life), and as far as freedom from exploitation and economic desparity, i am more in line with the black panthers and angela davis. they spoke about a world free of capitalism and racism, a communist/socialist world. when was the last time you heard angela speak? she is a communist, not a racist. assata shakur is also a communist(with asylum in cuba), not a racist or separatist. and finally, i ain't ever been treated lived with white privelege in my life. you further cement that you are racist in that you do not deny being anti non black and that you try to delegitimize my post with "that don't mean you ain't white". i will never understand the whole "you ain't black enough" my faince gets, just like i don't get the whole "you ain't mexican enough" i get. but people with those close minded outlooks are dying off, and ultimately, race mixing is on the rise and reactionaries can't do a thing about it. people gonna have to come up with new slurs. if we make a baby, that child will be beautiful, and if they ask what they are, we'll tell them "human", and that racism is wrong.
Like · about an hour ago

Pan-Afrikan Education This quote from above that seemed to have offended you was taken from Malcolm during the last months of his life. Even after he moved away from the Nation of Islam, Malcolm was still a Black Nationalist who refused to allow whites into his organization for the reasons stated above.

Like I said earlier, check out Brazil to see how well mixing works in combating racism. Also check out South Africa to see how mixed race blacks are treating their black brothers. The fact is that mixing really has only breed more confusion among Afrikan people. Teaching an Afrikan child that racism is wrong does nothing to address 500 years of psychological conditioning and self-hatred. Mixing with other people fails to correct that problem also.
Like · 1 · 31 minutes ago · Edited

Pan-Afrikan Education What you are giving us is the same tired rhetoric about how communism/socialism is going to somehow erase racism and create a world where blacks will be free to mix with other races. Nothing about your post actually addresses any specific issues in the black community such as self-hatred (which often leads to blacks marrying outside their race in the first place), lack of economic control, lack of political representation, Eurocentric indoctrination, or the fact that many of us still do not know our history and our culture. As I said before, you may have a black fiance , but you know nothing of the total black experience.
Like · 2 · 27 minutes ago · Edited

xxxx i am not personally offended as i do not consider myself white, nor have whites treated me as white. if you think racism is good for you and your people, you would know better than i, i am not african. i do not know if any of my ancestors having any african blood(although as the cradle of life, there may be some far back that may now seem inconsequential). i also never said "teach african kids that racism is wrong!(excluding whites). but what is confusing about racial hatred being wrong? no race mixing does not erase the past, but it allows us to see eachother as something other than an enemy or foe. as far as socialism, here's a quote from paul robeson(maybe you heard him) ""In Russia I felt for the first time like a full human being. No color prejudice like in Mississippi, no color prejudice like in Washington. It was the first time I felt like a human being." in regards to self hatred of african people, i do and will never understand, how could i? i could not, but if you think that is behind people falling in love(how you love that evil "so and so") i don't think anyone could help you. " lack of economic control, lack of political representation, Eurocentric indoctrination", again, some of the biggest and most influential black revolutionary leaders here in the states were believers in communism/socialism. if you are not familiar, why not read what had so passionately inspired some of the greatest social leaders of american history? i'll never claim to understand what it is to be black, but call me crazy, i won't think of "black" as racially intolerant.

Omotayewo Mese There are non Africoids who are just wolves in sheep's clothing who have managed to trick sheep into falling in love with them. They have worn that cloth for so long that they believe that they are no longer wolves. They are very dangerous people and we should be very wary of them and those that they have tricked into their side and thinking.

xxxx no, you figured me out, i'm just a wolf in sheep's clothing, and the poor black woman is a sheep!!! Omotayewo Mese i am incapable of loving her because i am an evil whitey hell bent on a mission to breed you out! gasp! what will i do now that my plans have been found out?! good thing i already tricked her into thinking my way(that she should hate herself). i'd like to see all you enlightened revolutionaries carry out some actions and see where your racist hate gets you. please, i will be waiting with popcorn. i think alot of you are just mad a "whiteboy" is actually listening to the words of black revolutionaries closer than you lot are and loving a black woman. i think it stings and hurts and pisses you off just as much as white racists get pissed when a white woman loves a black man.

i don't normally get into these debates as i write them off and block the poster, but this page quotes black american revolutionaries who are against racism and they cherry pick what they like and ignore what they don't, and i always see racist and anti gay slurs and phrases on there. is there any real way to debate them better than i have? i know i wasn't as sharp but as pissed off as i got and trying to maintain, i dunno. i want criticism on wording, sentence structure, logic. let me have it. maybe i was way more defensive than i should have been but i HATE being told i am an outsider, not good enough or the like. i got tons from my girlfriend's family(and their friends). i just need some advice on these types of discussions. i don't want to fight, i want to counter with facts and knowledge.

Red HalfGuard
3rd December 2013, 11:12
Pan-Afrikan Education If you are not an Afrikan then this page was not even designed for you first of all.

So why did you go there, again?

RedBen
3rd December 2013, 18:21
So why did you go there, again?

because i like to get outside of my own culture, i think it's good to. there are alot of great african revolutionaries. the page was suggested to me by someone and they posted informative things, but lately it's all been homophobia in the comments and anti-race mixing propaganda on the page. i am looking for critique of my side of the debate. not that i was right, but how i can be more effective going forward.

Sinister Cultural Marxist
3rd December 2013, 18:44
The guy sounds like an idiot - but technically he's right that Latino isn't a race.

#FF0000
3rd December 2013, 19:35
The guy sounds like an idiot - but technically he's right that Latino isn't a race.

It's not as if these things have solid definitions.

Sinister Cultural Marxist
3rd December 2013, 20:12
It's not as if these things have solid definitions.

True, but talking about "Latino" as a race demolishes the very real differences within Latin America and how a history of racism and casteism structured the lives of Blacks, Native American, Mulatto, Mestizo and White in Latin America. It's like a white saying "we're not African-American, Caucasian-American or Asian-American, we're just American!" Latino is a linguistic determination and includes people from a variety of social and economic backgrounds. Overlooking this problem just allows racism to persist in Latin America and Latin American communities.

Red HalfGuard
4th December 2013, 05:50
because i like to get outside of my own culture, i think it's good to. there are alot of great african revolutionaries. the page was suggested to me by someone and they posted informative things, but lately it's all been homophobia in the comments and anti-race mixing propaganda on the page. i am looking for critique of my side of the debate. not that i was right, but how i can be more effective going forward.

You're looking for critique? Don't go into a PoC-only space if you're white. Don't go into a women-only space if you're male. Don't go into a trans*-only space if you're cis. This is basic shit.

There you go. Critique. Just happy to help a comrade out.

Jimmie Higgins
4th December 2013, 11:15
Yeah, you are probably not going to convince a black separatist through debate... Especially over the internet. This general tendency within black nationalist traditions tends to be very politically pessimistic and based out of a profound buy not unwarranted suspicion of multi-ethnic organizing. It also tends to reflect middle class ideologies and so adapts to capitalism which leads to the answers for the problems of instability and poverty among poor blacks being an emphasis on creating black owned businesses and a strong patriarchal nuclear family. Without a class understanding of the system this makes a kind of sense as a reaction to current problems because of the way capitalism has disrupted any stability in the daily lives of black people. Black women are employed more than black men, unemployment and targeted policing of young black men means that shetero-patriarchal families are disrupted... So many black liberals buy into the "family responsibility" shit and nationalists even more so. Anyway, I'd guess that this is where a lot of the homophobia and frustration over inter racial couples springs from.

At any rate, it would be hard to argue for pan-ethnic solidarity when the ideology is based out of suspicion of this. Black Liberals and other kinds of black nationalists would be much more sympathetic and can be allies and even won to class politics, but I think the only way to win arguments against separatism is actually building successful pan-ethic struggles that can win ground in practice. Until then it's just a circular argument with black separatists because we do live in a racist society and white liberals and radicals have sold out or misled black movements and that's where these ideas of separatism come from.

Flying Purple People Eater
5th December 2013, 09:08
You're looking for critique? Don't go into a PoC-only space if you're white. Don't go into a women-only space if you're male. Don't go into a trans*-only space if you're cis. This is basic shit.

There you go. Critique. Just happy to help a comrade out.

Are you seriously chalking up political criticism of racial nationalists as racial discrimination? Get the fuck out.

Also, while we're talking about 'cultural spheres', the concept of 'people of colour' and their juxtaposition with 'white people' does not exist outside America. Someone travelling and/or living in a place like China, Korea, Vietnam, Iran, Arabia etc. as someone who is African will know this first hand. People who have dark skin who go to the PRC are not welcomed as comradely 'people of colour'. They are hit in the face with a racism that is nearly as prevalent and much less subtle and much more in-your-face than the US (people will abuse you in public for having a partner from that country). I can speak Farsi and know for a fact that the amount of Iranian racist insults for someone with dark skin is astronomically larger than that of English.

You're a hop skip and a jump away from 'etcetera for the etceterans' filth logic.