Ukraine EU Protests

[The Intransigent Faction]

As many as 100,000 demonstrators chased away police to make way for a rally in the centre of Ukraine (http://www.theguardian.com/world/ukraine)'s capital on Sunday, defying a government ban on protests on Independence Square, in the biggest show of anger about the president's refusal to sign an agreement with the EU.
Chants of "revolution" resounded across a sea of EU and Ukrainian flags on the square. The crowd was by far the largest since the protests began more than a week ago.
Many of the demonstrators had travelled to Kiev from western Ukraine, where pro-EU sentiment is particularly strong.
"We are furious," said Mykola Sapronov, a 62-year-old retired businessman. "The leaders must resign. We want Europe (http://www.theguardian.com/world/europe-news) and freedom."
Protests have been held daily in Kiev for more than a week after the president, Viktor Yanukovych (http://www.theguardian.com/world/viktor-yanukovych), backed away from an agreement that would have established free trade and deepened political co-operation between Ukraine and the EU. He justified the decision by saying that Ukraine could not afford to break trade ties with Russia.
The EU agreement would have been signed on Friday; since then the protests have gained strength.
Sunday's demonstration was further fuelled by anger about the violent dispersal of several hundred protesters (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/30/violent-police-crackdown-kiev-protest) at Independence Square early on Saturday. Some of the protesters were bleeding from their heads and arms after riot police beat them with truncheons.
All police left the square as demonstrators approached on Sunday and removed metal barriers blocking it off.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/01/ukraine-protesters-police-kiev-independence-square-eu-rally

8X-uzeyi-LQ

So, where exactly do leftist groups stand on this? Naturally we should oppose the banning and violent suppression of protests, but the EU and its 'free trade' is hardly a bastion of freedom. Where the heck could the left in Ukraine go from here?

[tuwix]

It's movement for money. It's obvious that EU will give to Ukraine more money because ithey are just richer than Russia. And leftists has nothing to do with it. Only we must protest against execssive police power usage. But only for that.

[piet11111]

I think the government did well to stay clear of the EU unless they want to surrender their economic sovereignty to Berlin and get hit with the austerity stick with the same exploding debt levels as all the other "success story's"

[Tim Cornelis]

Ukraine has one of the lowest public debts in Europe and its deficit gravitates around 3% (EU norm), nor is Ukraine in an economic crisis. I doubt that Brussels will impose austerity measures on it. I don't think (though I'm not certain) that austerity measures exist because of the EU, but are a product of neoliberalism.

And what does "economic sovereignty" mean? National economies are highly interdependent. Former president of the Dutch central bank Wim Duisenberg (before the EU's common monetary policy): "If the German Central Bank changes its interest rates I have fifteen minutes to follow. Those fifteen minutes, that is Dutch sovereignty." The very reason neoliberalism exists is because of interdependence of economies.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

The concept of economic sovereignty for a country like Ukraine is pretty absurd I agree. They are either going to be controlled by the EU or by Russia. Given their history it's not hard to understand why people would choose the EU over Russia. I think all this will only result in the gas line being shut down again in order to make it clear that Ukraine or it's government doesn't really get a say in the matter though.

[Niccolo]

I don't think (though I'm not certain) that austerity measures exist because of the EU, but are a product of neoliberalism.

I think this is a good point. Neoliberalism is not discussed as much as it should be, for it should be popping up in every discussion like this. Such is the nature of finance capital, that supranational unions are merely pawns for the bastions of neoliberalism (just read the bolded bits)

The financial and economic crisis that began in 2007 has been a forceful reminder that free markets come with violent boom-bust cycles. By historical standards, government intervention has been relatively quick and extensive. This may suggest that neoliberalism has been abandoned. Such a conclusion interprets neoliberalism essentially as a laissez-faire program, a political project, which wants to do away with state regulation and state intervention. While this is certainly a tempting interpretation, and indeed warranted by some of the neoliberal rethoric, there are other interpretations as well. Harvey highlights a tension in neoliberalism: "We can (…) interpret neoliberalization either as a utopian project to realize a theoretical design for the reorganization of international capitalism or as a political project to re-establish the conditions for capital accumulation and to restore the power of economic elites" (Harvey 203, 19). Indeed, neoliberalism [as] a project to restore class power is a hallmark of the Marxist interpretation of neoliberalism (e.g. Duménil und Lévy 2001, 2004). In this approach the anti-etatism of neoliberalism is instrumentalist, but not essential. It will be pursued when conducive to profitability, but not as an end in itself.

Already in the late 1970s Michel Foucault (2007) had suggested a third interpretation of neoliberalism, which we might call neoliberalism as form of governance by competitive subjectification. Based on a careful reading of the German ordo-liberal school and the US American Chicago School Foucault argues that neoliberalism differs radically from classical liberalism in that it does not aim at liberating markets, but at creating markets and subordinating government activity under this goal. Markets don’t create themselves, if left on their own, but have to be constructed and maintained. Contrary to classical liberalism neoliberalism thus requires permanent and profound state intervention. Stockhammer and Ramskogler (2009) reach a similar conclusion based on an analysis of recent economic policy and (‘New Keynesian’ and Neo-Institutionalist) developments in mainstream economics and call these developments ‘enlightened neoliberalism’. The title of the 2002 World Development report encapsulates this approach: Creating Institutions for Markets. As in the Marxist interpretation, state interventions do not constitute a break with neoliberalism.

Our approach in the following is cast in a regulationist framework and adopts a pragmatic concept of neoliberalism that points out that it came with changes in income distribution and a deregulation of the financial sector. This is hardly a deep analysis of neoliberalism, but it suffices the purpose of this paper, namely to highlight that several constituent components of neoliberalism are closely involved in the mechanisms generating the crisis.

The next quote is also telling, in neoliberalism's logic of austerity:


One might have thought that the economic limitation of the political would produce a space exterior to sovereignty, limiting its reach. There would be an economic domain of purely economic subjects, subjects whose relations could be described entirely in terms of competition. But this is not what happens. There remains a compulsion to governmentalize these subjects, to ensure that they are not outside power. That the limiting of government is not a limiting of its reach but a change in its logic tells us we are dealing with an economy of drive: the inhibition of sovereign reason that posits a limit to what it can know pushes it into a loop; it turns it around so that its aims can be achieved through other means. [...]

In each instance neoliberalism arises out of a critique of excessive governance (2008: 322), as a response to a mode of government that is erring on the side of too much and hence endangering freedom. The interesting twist is that where one would expect such a critique to urge the state to take its hands off the economy, it does something else instead: it subjects the state to the economy.

So we see, that the neoliberals tell us that capitalists ought to more fully own the state and reconfigure it so that it more efficiently serves their interests, and that it should use its ability to project legitimised force (they'll never say the word 'force' though, they'll just leave it to us to try and figure out), to more aggressively break down any barriers to fast profit-making that they can see in society. The consequence being that the social fabric becomes completely shredded, and then they pretend that they are surprised, all the time. But how can they be surprised, liberal-capitalism has always required the use of the state to pave the way for its advance by force, and it has always lead to chaos and suffering for a significant number of people.

And then, in the social chaos, a struggle begins to emerge:

A crisis occurs, sometimes lasting for decades. This exceptional duration means that incurable structural contradictions have revealed themselves (reached maturity) and that, despite this, the political forces which are struggling to conserve and defend the existing structure itself are making every effort to cure them, within certain limits, and to overcome them. These incessant and persistent efforts ... form the terrain of the 'conjunctural' and it is upon this terrain that the forces of opposition organise.

[Communist-USSR]

Ukraine is mostly divided between the pro-EU west and the pro-Russia east.

[Communist-USSR]

A picture of the "peaceful" protesters:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BaaAFhFCAAAwLze.jpg:large

[piet11111]

One of the things they would have to surrender is their tariffs system opening the internal market entirely to european competitors.

And since their own company's are nowhere near as competitive this would result in large job-losses.

Then there is the threatened end of gas supplies and the end of the arms manufacturing agreement with Russia also going to cost them thousands of jobs and a lot of money.

[Queen Mab]

Apparently the protesters tried to topple a statue of Lenin, so fuck them.

Don't care otherwise.

[Igor]

Apparently the protesters tried to topple a statue of Lenin, so fuck them.

Don't care otherwise.

oh no not the statue of lenin

[Igor]

damn

http://i.imgur.com/B6pxfnA.jpg?1

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Those poor pigs :-(

[Rss]

To me it seems that there are mainly two sides in this conflict; running dogs of EU (protestors) and running dogs of Russia (da gubmint).

Protests are seemingly backed by bourgeois liberalist parties All-Ukrainian Union "Fatherland" and UDAR plus nationalist Svoboda.

On the other hand, we have this kind of people on other side;


On the 26th, another anti-Maidan protest was organized in Donetsk, attracting only 30 student protesters. Organizers stated that the European Union had ruined the economies of new members, and that joining would bring corruption and gay marriage.[120] The protest was counter to the pro-EU EuroMaidan protest 200 meters away, which attracted no more than 50 protesters. On the 27th, a small anti-Maidan rally was held by the Russian Bloc and Communists in Mykolaiv.[222]


Later, Communist Party MP Antonina Khromova made statements at the Donetsk regional council, approving the use of force to remove protesters in Kiev, which was met with applause. She continued by saying that Ukraine does not need European values, namely, "same-sex marriage" and "African pan handlers".[225]

So yeah, pick your poison.

[Per Levy]

A picture of the "peaceful" protesters

i dont see the problem really, protestors fighting the oppressive forces of a capitalist state. that the protestors are pro-eu is actually a win/win imo, 2 parts of the bourgeoisie beating each other up over the question under wich sphere of infulence the ukraine should be, the eu sphere or the russian sphere.

except of course you think russian capitalism/imperialism is good and worthy of support i dont see why you care about peaceful or nonpeacful protests.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Hmm I just dont know, I'd still like to get the Lenin statue to weigh in on this before I choose my side.

[Per Levy]

Later, Communist Party MP Antonina Khromova made statements at the Donetsk regional council, approving the use of force to remove protesters in Kiev, which was met with applause. She continued by saying that Ukraine does not need European values, namely, "same-sex marriage" and "African pan handlers".[225]

holy shit, applauding a capitalist state, being homophobic and racist. great communists there. reading stuff like that makes me feel bad calling myself a communist. fuck them, let them go down with their capitalist masters.

[Q]

So, where exactly do leftist groups stand on this? Naturally we should oppose the banning and violent suppression of protests, but the EU and its 'free trade' is hardly a bastion of freedom. Where the heck could the left in Ukraine go from here?
I think the left is missing the point with framing it like "pro-EU" versus "anti-EU". The question we ought to be asking is "is the European working class stronger in a united or divided manner?" and asking the question is answering it.

So, instead of being anti-EU (and therefore be pro-nationalist or pro-some-other-imperialist-bloc like Russia) the left should be putting forward the question of democracy on a continental level. We shouldn't be saying "less Brussels", but "ok, we want more unity, but we want a Europe of the common people, a Europe of the majority, we want a European Democratic Republic". This in turn would immensely strengthen our class against capital and, for that reason, the bourgeoisie will oppose full unification in this manner.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Apparently the protesters tried to topple a statue of Lenin, so fuck them.

Don't care otherwise.

Gee why would people protesting Russia's influence what to topple what unfortunately has become a symbol of Russia? They must really hate the arguments in "State and Revolution".

Seriously though, the OP's question is a good one and I'd like to know more about this. In a very superficial way (I've only read about thin in the US or UK mainstream press so far) it does seem like it's people lining up behind their lesser evil power of choice (Russia or the EU)... not much obvious working class politics at play. But I also don't know enough (or anything really) about politics in the Ukraine to say if there's any dynamic involved where workers alternatives to being subordinate to one power or another might be organized or agitated - or how the economic angst is viewd among working people.

[Ele'ill]

here are some more photos


http://media.salon.com/2013/12/Screen-shot-2013-12-02-at-1.13.50-PM.png
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/audio/video/2013/11/26/1385455950498/Demonstrators-clash-with--001.jpg
http://www.odt.co.nz/files/story/2013/11/a_protester_clashes_with_riot_police_during_a_rall _5293a33859.JPGhttp://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2013/11/25/431313-ukraine-eu-demonstration.jpg
http://media.commercialappeal.com/media/img/photos/2013/11/24/APTOPIX_Ukraine_EU.JPEG-09a70_t607.JPG

and the bulldozer clip

Z6JB_ZYTgkM

Pq2ZtTNp0GQ


i think an extended video of the confrontations with peace police folks getting stuck in the middle

2OKMhOxZEos

[consuming negativity]

So, where exactly do leftist groups stand on this? Naturally we should oppose the banning and violent suppression of protests, but the EU and its 'free trade' is hardly a bastion of freedom. Where the heck could the left in Ukraine go from here?

It seems, in my opinion, like a battle between the traditional social conservatives and their more socially-libertarian counterparts. In that sense, I sympathize with the protesters who probably don't understand or care about the economics of the situation.

However, from an economic perspective, I can't help but be frustrated and saddened by all of this violence by regular people over which capitalists will get to exploit them. My answer to the EU v. Russia question would be neither.

[piet11111]

I think the left is missing the point with framing it like "pro-EU" versus "anti-EU". The question we ought to be asking is "is the European working class stronger in a united or divided manner?" and asking the question is answering it.

So, instead of being anti-EU (and therefore be pro-nationalist or pro-some-other-imperialist-bloc like Russia) the left should be putting forward the question of democracy on a continental level. We shouldn't be saying "less Brussels", but "ok, we want more unity, but we want a Europe of the common people, a Europe of the majority, we want a European Democratic Republic". This in turn would immensely strengthen our class against capital and, for that reason, the bourgeoisie will oppose full unification in this manner.


It seems the intention is to turn the Ukraine into a cheap labor country and as a way to drive down wages here.

And having the EU as big as it is now i havent seen any of this unity being put to use by the left and adding ukraine to the mix wont change much i expect.

[newdayrising]

Anyone seen any leftist organizations picking sides yet?
I haven't been able to find any yet. I'm curious though.

[Sam_b]

Ukraine has one of the lowest public debts in Europe and its deficit gravitates around 3% (EU norm), nor is Ukraine in an economic crisis

Source? We can go back to October to see the IMF predicting 0% growth for Ukraine, after the 1/1% over the summer prompted the Financial Times to speculate about a bailout. According to this economist (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-06/ukraine-spared-the-eu-and-itself.html), Ukraine is at risk of imminent default.
So to say that everything is relatively stable in Ukraine *appears* to be incorrect, and nothing I've heard around the department recently either.

To those talking about the economic sovereignty of the country being surrendered to 'Germany' (i.e the European Union), I broadly agree - but is this any better than losing said sovereignty to Russia? Anyway, the main thing to take from these demonstrations is the idea perpetuated in the post-Soviet environment of EU/structural change as being 'progressive' and 'modern'; and these demonstrators are calling for a closer relationship to the EU as much as for a break with the country's current political direction which was the dominant theme for the country in the early to mid-1990s. It's not as black and white as some here think.

[Tim Cornelis]

Source? We can go back to October to see the IMF predicting 0% growth for Ukraine, after the 1/1% over the summer prompted the Financial Times to speculate about a bailout. According to this economist (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-12-06/ukraine-spared-the-eu-and-itself.html), Ukraine is at risk of imminent default.
So to say that everything is relatively stable in Ukraine *appears* to be incorrect, and nothing I've heard around the department recently either.


Deficit of Ukraine (average since 2004: -2.8%)
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/charts/ukraine-government-budget.png?s=ukrainegb

According to this list: http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/774/economics/

Ukraine had a public debt of 36.5% in 2011. Only Romania, Moldova, Estonia, Macedonia, Luxembourg, and Russia have lower public debts in Europe (excluding Georgia and Armenia).

But you're right. Economic growth rates of previous years and projections are precarious (IMF).

2007 7.9%
2008 2.1%
2009 -14.8%
2010 4.2%
2011 5.2%[26]
2012 0.2%[13]
2013 0% [13]
2014 2.8% [13]

Though technically a growth rate of 0% is not an economic crisis. For some reason I had remembered that the growth rate of Ukraine was a healthy 8% in the last two years or so. Perhaps I confused it with Turkey's.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Later, Communist Party MP Antonina Khromova made statements at the Donetsk regional council, approving the use of force to remove protesters in Kiev, which was met with applause. She continued by saying that Ukraine does not need European values, namely, "same-sex marriage" and "African pan handlers".[225]

What an interesting tip on eurocentrism- go back to the eurocentrism of a hundred years ago. Also "African pan handlers"? Are these filth for real? :laugh:

I'm not surprised. These days the only thing communism really seems to mean in the Black Sea region is right-wing, often fascistoid nostalgia for the 'good ole days'.

[Sam_b]

Thanks for your post Tim, that makes it a lot clearer.


For some reason I had remembered that the growth rate of Ukraine was a healthy 8% in the last two years or so

It's gone in peaks and troughs based on a number of factors really, so I think data has been generally inconsistent. IMF predictions from October are the most recent I've seen. According to Bloomberg in September it was going on at 0.6% so has obviously it's slashed again in predictions based on about a month. It may not be as doom and gloom as I've said but it does show that the situation is pretty precarious and verging on the unstable. I don't see these demonstrations petering out for a while though, which will also cause more upset in the markets.

[Die Neue Zeit]

So, where exactly do leftist groups stand on this? Naturally we should oppose the banning and violent suppression of protests, but the EU and its 'free trade' is hardly a bastion of freedom. Where the heck could the left in Ukraine go from here?

I think the Ukraine should split and have its own Velvet Divorce, and that any split should also affect Kiev.

[The Intransigent Faction]

It seems, in my opinion, like a battle between the traditional social conservatives and their more socially-libertarian counterparts. In that sense, I sympathize with the protesters who probably don't understand or care about the economics of the situation.

However, from an economic perspective, I can't help but be frustrated and saddened by all of this violence by regular people over which capitalists will get to exploit them. My answer to the EU v. Russia question would be neither.

Pretty much. My instinct when seeing people beat down by cops is to oppose that, period, whether or not on they fit some ideal category of class-consciousness. Police brutality can never actually represent the interests of the working class, despite what authoritarians might say.

Though the current protests are an example of false consciousness, this cannot be corrected with a baton or tear gas or whatever sort of weapon. How people can come to realize that both Russia and the EU are symptoms of the real problem is, I think, the important question. I haven't got a damn clue what the answer is, but it's safe to say it's not police brutality under the justification that "We can't afford to piss Russia off".

[Sam_b]

I think the Ukraine should split and have its own Velvet Divorce, and that any split should also affect Kiev.

Explain? I don't think you can put anything in a way comparable to the Velvet divorce considering that Ukraine wasn't a completely artificial amalgamation of territory like Czechoslovakia was.

[Zukunftsmusik]

What role does the fascists have in these protests? I've encountered a guy over at a Norwegian website who claimed they are/were taking a "leading role" in the protests (and, sadly, used this as an argument for violent repression of the demonstrations).

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I keep reading that the dudes attacking the cops on the first page are ultra nationalists but I haven't seen anything to back it up. Given the comments of the different parties there it sounds like ultra nationalists are present on both sides though.

[Communist-USSR]

Bad news:
16:17 GMT: A group of protesters has taken down the monument to Russian revolutionary leader Vladimir Lenin on Kiev’s Bessarabskya Square, reports RT’s Irina Galushko. Dozens of protesters attempted to deface the monument last week, but were repelled by riot police. Ukraine’s Communist Party decried the attempt as unacceptable and placed a patrol to guard the monument. However, neither the party’s patrol, nor police were seen guarding the Lenin’s monument on Sunday.
instagram . com/p/hqq5_rwGLz

[sosolo]

Explain? I don't think you can put anything in a way comparable to the Velvet divorce considering that Ukraine wasn't a completely artificial amalgamation of territory like Czechoslovakia was.

Unless you go back far enough (pre-WWII) and move western Ukraine back to Poland (pre Curzon line).

Not that I think that's a good idea, but I wouldn't be surprised by some sort of Polish irredentism.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)

[Red Commissar]

It seems that some protestors made a show of tearing down a Lenin statue (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25290959), which they see as a symbol of Russian domination of Ukraine, and in turn placing an EU flag and a placard saying "Yanyuvich (I know I butchered his name) it's time to go" or something to that effect.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Why do the pro-EU protesters want to join the EU? What do they think will benefit them as a result? And, why are the anti-EU protesters against joining the EU? What do they think will cause problems as a result of joining the EU?

[Onecom]

Fucking scum knocking down a statue of lenin.

It blows my mind that people would actually WANT to join the EU, and be financially dominated by Germany.:mad:

[Remus Bleys]

Fucking scum knocking down a statue of lenin.

It blows my mind that people would actually WANT to join the EU, and be financially dominated by Germany.:mad:
As compared to being financially dominated by Russia?
I mean, I don't get why people are pro-either but you gotta remember the other side.

Also: I thought this OH NO LENIN shit was a joke, get over yourself. I mean, I like Lenin and all, but he has clearly become a symbol of russian ruling class.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Explain? I don't think you can put anything in a way comparable to the Velvet divorce considering that Ukraine wasn't a completely artificial amalgamation of territory like Czechoslovakia was.

What about Yugoslavia?

Geographically, the Ukrainian Socialist Soviet Republic, a federative mistake (http://www.revleft.com/vb/nationalities-soviet-union-t61251/index.html), was smaller than the WWII-based Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, and was more Russian-cultured. The western portion of the Ukraine was more culturally tied to the Kingdom of Poland and Lithuania.

I favour an independent western Ukraine, whether West-leaning or Russian-friendly, but an eastern Ukraine - including the Crimea - as a "republic" of the Russian Federation.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Bad news:
16:17 GMT: A group of protesters has taken down the monument to Russian revolutionary leader Vladimir Lenin on Kiev’s Bessarabskya Square, reports RT’s Irina Galushko. Dozens of protesters attempted to deface the monument last week, but were repelled by riot police. Ukraine’s Communist Party decried the attempt as unacceptable and placed a patrol to guard the monument. However, neither the party’s patrol, nor police were seen guarding the Lenin’s monument on Sunday.
instagram . com/p/hqq5_rwGLz


Fucking scum knocking down a statue of lenin.


Oh no not the Lenin statue! That statue of Lenin was critical in uniting the working class of the Ukraine. Without that statue, how will we ever have a revolution?



It blows my mind that people would actually WANT to join the EU, and be financially dominated by Germany.:mad:

Because it's better to be Germany's house slave than Russia's cotton picker? The EU is associated with social liberalism, free movement for labor and some kind of limited electoral accountability which doesn't exist in Russia's sphere of influence. Case in point - Ukraine's "Communist" Party complaining about "European values" of diversity leading to things elderly conservative Ukrainians balk at like "African panhandlers" and "homosexuals". I can't blame young urban Ukrainians taking the EU over socially conservative, absurdly nostalgic scumbags like that.

[Remus Bleys]

Eh the EU is an inherently homophobic racist entity so I wouldn't praise it. Its simply more subtle about it.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Eh the EU is an inherently homophobic racist entity so I wouldn't praise it. Its simply more subtle about it.

I'm not praising the EU at all. I think we can still recognize the conditions in the Ukraine that make people idolize it though.

[Illegalitarian]

The very reason neoliberalism exists is because of interdependence of economies.

Neoliberalism exists because of capitalism. The worst that the mode of production has to offer, in my opinion, as it is the bourgeoisie coming together as an internationalist class and collaborating on mass exploitation projects, the likes of which were never seen until it became the widespread flavor of choice among economists on all the right pay-rolls.

It has, however, nothing to do with the interdependence of economics. Economies will always be dependent upon one another for survival as long as resources remain finite.



As for this whole situation, it's rather unfortunate as there really is no victory for the working class here. Economic imperialists trying to outbid one another to see who gets their hands on that sweet, sweet pool of cheap labor just ripe for the picking.


Laughed pretty hard about people unironically losing their shit over the Lenin statue, however.

[The Idler]

I think the left is missing the point with framing it like "pro-EU" versus "anti-EU". The question we ought to be asking is "is the European working class stronger in a united or divided manner?" and asking the question is answering it.

So, instead of being anti-EU (and therefore be pro-nationalist or pro-some-other-imperialist-bloc like Russia) the left should be putting forward the question of democracy on a continental level. We shouldn't be saying "less Brussels", but "ok, we want more unity, but we want a Europe of the common people, a Europe of the majority, we want a European Democratic Republic". This in turn would immensely strengthen our class against capital and, for that reason, the bourgeoisie will oppose full unification in this manner.
The left might frame it as pro-EU versus anti-EU, but socialists wouldn't.

Anyone seen any leftist organizations picking sides yet?
I haven't been able to find any yet. I'm curious though.
In Britain, the CPB/Morning Star have printed a piece from No2EU http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-806e-Ukraine-the-untold-story
I expect Weekly Worker to criticise both sides but will their conclusion be able to resist the temptation to offer soft support for one side or the other?

[Rafiq]

Communism is a reactionary ideology in places like Ukraine and Russia.

[Sam_b]

What about Yugoslavia?

What about it? Yugoslavia was a supposed federation (or amalgamation) of several different nation states. Ukraine has never historically been composed in this way at all.


Geographically, the Ukrainian Socialist Soviet Republic, a federative mistake, was smaller than the WWII-based Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, and was more Russian-cultured. The western portion of the Ukraine was more culturally tied to the Kingdom of Poland and Lithuania.

Territory wishing to be reclaimed by a country, or indeed the identifying nationalities within a country, is entirely different to that of Czechoslovakia. Czechs never identified as being part of a larger state that was already defined either historically or politically.


I favour an independent western Ukraine

To be honest it's not up to you to 'prefer' how you artificially carve up a country. Why do you always come out with these ridiculous half-hashed theories?

[Zukunftsmusik]

Why do the pro-EU protesters want to join the EU? What do they think will benefit them as a result? And, why are the anti-EU protesters against joining the EU? What do they think will cause problems as a result of joining the EU?


Not the whole movement consists of of supporters of the traditional opposition parties. There is a strong, student-based movement that tries to keep all politicians at a distance. Here is how Marina Lewycka, already quoted, describes it: “For the young people in the square, this whole game of political tit-for-tat is what they reject.” One of the places these wing of the movement appartently gets inspiration from is the Occupy movement, according to Claire Biggs who explains on 25 November: “Unlike the Orange Revolution, the current protests are divided into two separate rallies – one by young nonpartisan activists inspired by the Occupy movement, the second, concentrated on another Kyiv square, by political parties.” Now, the Occupy movement, whatever its failings, was not a very pro-EU movement, as people may recall. It was not a very pro-business movement either. Claire Biggs, 27 November on RFE/ RL : “The demonstrations have brought to the forefront a new generation of protesters that grew up in an independent Ukraine and have few – if any – memories of the Soviet Union. They see themselves as Europeans, they are disillusioned with politics-as-usual, and they feel increasingly at odds with establishment opposition figures.”

From Libcom. (http://www.libcom.org/blog/ukraine-whats-going-what-does-it-mean-03122013)

It seems that "anti-establishment" attitudes takes pro-EU forms.

[brigadista]

Anyone here from Ukraine? My understanding which is sketchy at best is there is a strong right wing presence on these protests - svoboda etc

[Zukunftsmusik]

Anyone here from Ukraine? My understanding which is sketchy at best is there is a strong right wing presence on these protests - svoboda etc

Some guy over at Libcom has made a decent attempt to sort things out. There are clear ultra-nationalist elements present, but the situation is unclear.

Ukraine: what's going on, and what does it mean? (http://libcom.org/blog/ukraine-whats-going-what-does-it-mean-03122013)

[John Lennin]

Svoboda aren't just some right wingers. They are fascists.
Look at this:
https://twitter.com/marax_de/status/407560676530339840/photo/1/large
The german description says:
"Yesterday these pictures went through the german media. The fact that ukrainian neo Nazis were part of the protests and escalations wasn't mentioned at all."

[Tim Cornelis]

Eh the EU is an inherently homophobic racist entity so I wouldn't praise it. Its simply more subtle about it.

Inherently racist and homophobic? How?

[Remus Bleys]

Inherently racist and homophobic? How?
The EU exists solely for the purpose for economic (and political) deals for Western Europe, ie its just an extension of capitalist rule.

How is that not inherently racist/homophobic?

[The Idler]

I'm pretty sure Western Europe and capitalism can be relatively non-racist and non-homophobic.

[Remus Bleys]

The key word their is relatively. Just cause they arent offering up pogroms for gays and jews doesn't make it "not racist"

[The Idler]

The key word their is relatively. Just cause they arent offering up pogroms for gays and jews doesn't make it "not racist"
Doesn't make them inherently racist either. And it's not an argument against capitalism or the EU.

[KurtFF8]

The left might frame it as pro-EU versus anti-EU, but socialists wouldn't.

Why would socialists not do that? The protests are explicitly about moving the Ukraine more towards the EU much in the vein of the Orange Revolution.


Communism is a reactionary ideology in places like Ukraine and Russia.

What do you mean by this?

[brigadista]

Svoboda aren't just some right wingers. They are fascists.
Look at this:
https://twitter.com/marax_de/status/407560676530339840/photo/1/large
The german description says:
"Yesterday these pictures went through the german media. The fact that ukrainian neo Nazis were part of the protests and escalations wasn't mentioned at all."

This is what I thought and also there is some other fascist group in the photos - nazi group dating from WW2 with the red and black flags

[Tim Cornelis]

The EU exists solely for the purpose for economic (and political) deals for Western Europe, ie its just an extension of capitalist rule.

How is that not inherently racist/homophobic?

That's not an argument, explain how the EU is inherently racist and homophobic.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Why would socialists not do that? The protests are explicitly about moving the Ukraine more towards the EU much in the vein of the Orange Revolution.



What do you mean by this?

I don't want to respond for rafiq but I think I get what he means. I work with a guy from Bosnia, we got to discussing politics once and told him I was a communist. His initial reaction was pretty uncomfortable, but he let me explain myself before flying off the handle too much. After I was done he explained that he had read Marx in his youth growing up in Yugoslavia and still agreed with him (this was at the beginning of the 2008 crisis), but that's not the connection he made when he heard the word commnunist. Communists to him were currupt politicians and police informants, not Marx or 20-something year old kids from the US. I imagine this is pretty common in most post-Communist countries.

[Dagoth Ur]

THE APPEAL OF THE FIRST SECRETARY OF CENTRAL COMMITTEE OF THE
COMMUNIST PARTY OF UKRAINE TO SUPPORT THE LEFT FORCES IN UKRAINE
AND CONDEMN ACTIONS OF THE SO-CALLED "OPPOSITION" AND PRO-FASCIST
PARTY "FREEDOM"
DEAR COMRADES!
On 8th of December, 2013 the entire civilized world has witnessed the
sacrilegious act of vandalism - under the guise of European values, while the crowd
cheered of brutal extremists was destroyed the Lenin`s monument in the center of Kiev.
World leading TV channels showed shocking footage how frenzy representatives
fascist "Freedom" party headed by Oleg Tyagnibok broken monument, shouting at the
same time that the next target will be the President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych.
The so-called "opposition" in Ukraine has openly demands punishment of
government officials, while virtually disrupted public order, starting in Kiev pogroms,
built barricades, the center of the Ukrainian capital virtually paralyzed.
At the same time, foreign ministers of Poland, Lithuania and Sweden, as well as
some of the leading politicians of the European Union - do not hesitate to provoke
further the intensity of the situation in Ukraine. Representatives of the European
People's Party openly express approval of the situation in Ukraine. Many Ambassadors
of the European Union in their comments express approval of overthrowing the
government in Ukraine, breaking the immutable principle of non-interference of world
diplomacy. Impossible to imagine a situation where the riots, such as in France or in
Sweden - one of the politicians of other countries have expressed approval of the
actions of aggressive crowd, the same way - it is impossible to imagine interference in
the affairs of another state of the diplomatic corps.
Tragic events in Ukraine are served under the guise of fighting for European
values, but about what European values are we talking about, when in place of the
demolished monument was the flag of the European Union, when there are calls for the
physical destruction of the authorities in the name of European values. European values
can not be considered evidence of severe beatings aggressive crowd of hundreds of
unarmed law enforcement officers under the Administration of the President of Ukraine,
at the same time, many of law officers were seriously injured.
We believe that the actions of the so-called "opposition" and fascist party
"Freedom", which destroy monuments, committing massive provocation against law
enforcement officials and public servants, numerous seizures of state institutions in
Kiev - in no way can be European values.
Unfortunately, pro-Western media only show only part of the truth, in fact, real
events from a neutral point of view are silenced. European public is brought to the
knowledge that, ostensibly, "the entire Ukrainian people defended for the European
choice", but in fact there is a substitution of concepts, and instead of European rhetoric
in Ukraine is carried out a coup d'etat.
I ask you to support the left forces in Ukraine. The current situation in Ukraine is
a continuation of a series of coups in the Arab world, but with European characteristics.
I ask you severely to condemn the "Freedom" party.
I ask you to call to boycott by political elite all over the world as regards leaders
of "Freedom" party and deputies from the faction of "Freedom" in the Parliament of
Ukraine.
I ask you to call the World Community to sober assess of the real situation in
Ukraine and to prevent further extremist and provocative actions of the so-called
"opposition" and "Freedom" party headed by Oleg Tyagnibok.
I ask you to call all deputies in your National Parliaments of all level and officials
who is a member of your party to support by all means the position of Communist party
of Ukraine.
About any your activity please inform the International Department of the CC of
Communist party of Ukraine, because we are going to inform Ukrainian society about
your position.
I sincerely believe in your support.
Yours faithfully
The First Secretary
of the Central Committee
of the Communist party of Ukraine,
The Head of the deputy faction of the communists
in Ukrainian Parliament,
The Member of the Ukrainian permanent delegation
in the Parliamentary Assembly
of the Council of Europe Petro Symonenko

http://www.solidnet.org/ukraine-communist-party-of-ukraine/cp-of-ukraine-the-letter-from-the-leader-of-the-communist-party-of-ukraine-en-ru

(Russian and English texts included)

Courtesy of your friends at Soviet-Empire.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Why is the communist party calling on bourgeois politicians for their support in boycotting the freedom party? Why is the communist party asking me to feel sympathy for the lapdogs of their own bourgeois state? Why is the communist party only interested in resisting EU control of Ukraine while remaining silent about the identical role played by Russia?

[Per Levy]

(Russian and English texts included)

Courtesy of your friends at Soviet-Empire.

i am friends with soviet-empire? i dont think so.

anyway, lets have some fun with that text.


On 8th of December, 2013 the entire civilized world has witnessed the sacrilegious act of vandalism

blasphemers, heretics, heathens, pagans burn them.


under the guise of European values

and under european values the cpu understands "samesex marriage" and "african panhandlers".


while the crowd
cheered of brutal extremists was destroyed the Lenin`s monument in the center of Kiev.

in other news, around 25% of the ukrainian population is considered poor but lets go back to shoking and way more importent events like the toppling of a statue.


World leading TV channels showed shocking footage how frenzy representatives
fascist "Freedom" party headed by Oleg Tyagnibok broken monument, shouting at the
same time that the next target will be the President of Ukraine Viktor Yanukovych.

makes you wonder why the commies arnt doing that, since yanukovych is a bourgeois leader of a capitlalist state.


European values
can not be considered evidence of severe beatings aggressive crowd of hundreds of
unarmed law enforcement officers under the Administration of the President of Ukraine,
at the same time, many of law officers were seriously injured.

let us all shed a tear for the injured pigs, the protectors of private proberty.

sickening that something like that calls itsself "communist", i wish commie parts like that would jsut rename themselfs into social-conservative partys, its way more apropriate.

[L.A.P.]

I don't want to respond for rafiq but I think I get what he means. I work with a guy from Bosnia, we got to discussing politics once and told him I was a communist. His initial reaction was pretty uncomfortable, but he let me explain myself before flying off the handle too much. After I was done he explained that he had read Marx in his youth growing up in Yugoslavia and still agreed with him (this was at the beginning of the 2008 crisis), but that's not the connection he made when he heard the word commnunist. Communists to him were currupt politicians and police informants, not Marx or 20-something year old kids from the US. I imagine this is pretty common in most post-Communist countries.

to add to that, those Communist politicians tend to be very socially-conservative

[khad]

What role does the fascists have in these protests? I've encountered a guy over at a Norwegian website who claimed they are/were taking a "leading role" in the protests (and, sadly, used this as an argument for violent repression of the demonstrations).

Ukrainian Freedom Party Flags, Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) Banners, and a giant portrait of Ukrainian fascist Stepan Bandera:
http://i.lb.ua/120/46/525c289fe6f50.jpeg

Ukrainian protesters with a huge UPA (fascist) flag:
http://i.lb.ua/103/28/525c280f7ff5d.jpeg

Replacing the Party of Regions flag with the UPA banner:
http://directpress.ru/images/stories/2013/V-Ukraine/12-2013/05/08_12_13_UPA_Kabmin.jpg

Fascists marching with UPA and OUN banners:
http://img.nur.kz/foto_images/08/4/151013_142815_42868_20.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_Ukrainian_Nationalists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Insurgent_Army

[KurtFF8]

I don't want to respond for rafiq but I think I get what he means. I work with a guy from Bosnia, we got to discussing politics once and told him I was a communist. His initial reaction was pretty uncomfortable, but he let me explain myself before flying off the handle too much. After I was done he explained that he had read Marx in his youth growing up in Yugoslavia and still agreed with him (this was at the beginning of the 2008 crisis), but that's not the connection he made when he heard the word commnunist. Communists to him were currupt politicians and police informants, not Marx or 20-something year old kids from the US. I imagine this is pretty common in most post-Communist countries.

True, but how does that make Communism, as a political or even ideological movement, reactionary in those places? Just because many associate those ruling parties with corruption and the like doesn't mean that the existing Communist movement, or even Communist ideology is thus reactionary.


to add to that, those Communist politicians tend to be very socially-conservative

But being socially-conservative does not automatically make one's ideology reactionary. This of course is a much wider discussion that would be more appropriate for another thread.

What surprises me more here is that at a place like RevLeft that some are being quite ambivalent about these protests.

[TriPac Dude]

I am Ukrainian, but right now I live in the capitalist dictatorship of America. Anyway, Ukraine still retains some socialist policies. But not enough. Granted I don't want a return to the dictatorship of the old Soviet Union, because that was just as bad as capitalist dictators. Presently most Ukrainians are disgusted with the present Yanukovich regime and his sucking up to Russia. I don't support the Ukrainian communist party because they want a return to the old dictatorship. What do you think me and my fellow Ukrainians should do about the evil that is going on in my country? If you find any news about it let me know!

[Taters]

What are these "socialist policies"? Are they holdovers from the Soviet era?

[SovietCommie]

If you find any news about it let me know!
Here (https://www.google.com/search?q=ukraine&client=safari&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ei=i4bUUonlKMrs2wXUv4HYCA&ved=0CAoQ_AUoAA)
Also, Red salute comrade.

[tuwix]

What are these "socialist policies"? Are they holdovers from the Soviet era?

He means some social services that remained after soviet era. But they have even so-called Western countries. I think the existence of Soviet Union and its empire enforced some social services in so-called Western countries due to fear of revolution. Now they're tried to be deleted only of it is possible according to neoliberal policy...

[Taters]

He means some social services that remained after soviet era. But they have even so-called Western countries. I think the existence of Soviet Union and its empire enforced some social services in so-called Western countries due to fear of revolution. Now they're tried to be deleted only of it is possible according to neoliberal policy...

Yes, a quick google search turned this up:


The Ukrainian health system has preserved the fundamental features of the Soviet Semashko system against a background of other changes, which are developed on market economic principles. The transition from centralized financing to its extreme decentralization is the main difference in the health system in comparison with the classic Soviet model. Health facilities are now functionally subordinate to the Ministry of Health, but managerially and financially answerable to the regional and local self-government, which has constrained the implementation of health policy and fragmented health financing. Health care expenditure in Ukraine is low by regional standards and has not increased significantly as a proportion of gross domestic product (GDP) since the mid 1990s; expenditure cannot match the constitutional guarantees of access to unlimited care. Although prepaid schemes such as sickness funds are growing in importance, out-of-pocket payments account for 37.4% of total health expenditure. The core challenges for Ukrainian health care therefore remain the ineffective protection of the population from the risk of catastrophic health care costs and the structural inefficiency of the health system, which is caused by the inefficient system of health care financing. Health system weaknesses are highlighted by increasing rates of avoidable mortality. Recent political impasse has complicated health system reforms and policy-makers face significant challenges in overcoming popular distrust and fatigue in the face of necessary but as yet unimplemented reforms.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21429862

In sum, an ailing Soviet-era healthcare policy is being further undermined.

[Ele'ill]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25798320




folks attacking and beating cops with pipes, poles, bats, sticks, rocks, bottles, probably other stuff

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6b3_1390161381

[Ele'ill]

and more

vzKn0s-dp8Y

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

True, but how does that make Communism, as a political or even ideological movement, reactionary in those places? Just because many associate those ruling parties with corruption and the like doesn't mean that the existing Communist movement, or even Communist ideology is thus reactionary.



But being socially-conservative does not automatically make one's ideology reactionary. This of course is a much wider discussion that would be more appropriate for another thread.

What surprises me more here is that at a place like RevLeft that some are being quite ambivalent about these protests.

Because in just about every post-Communist county, communism is still synonymous with the Communist Party. In Ukraine's case this would be the party making statements against homosexuals and "African pan-handlers" and siding with the government as it attempts to impose authoritarian anti-protest laws.

The idea that just because a few decades have passed that people will now think of a glorious free and open society when they hear the word communism is a delusion of the left, in reality people still think of bread lines, ugly claustrophobic apartment blocks, and police spies. A wonderful legacy handed down to us from our old comrades :rolleyes:

[khad]

The idea that just because a few decades have passed that people will now think of a glorious free and open society when they hear the word communism is a delusion of the left, in reality people still think of bread lines, ugly claustrophobic apartment blocks, and police spies. A wonderful legacy handed down to us from our old comrades :rolleyes:
It's cute how people in the west have lots to say about the ugly design of apartment buildings when people who actually lived in them remember them as having a place to live after their country was razed to the ground. And the bread lines in Russia/Ukraine are a memory of the Gorbachev era.

I suppose you'd rather have people starve and live in the streets to preserve your artistic critique. How privileged and arrogant do you want to be?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Christ, go find something else to do your time you pathetic shut in.

[The Intransigent Faction]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25798320




folks attacking and beating cops with pipes, poles, bats, sticks, rocks, bottles, probably other stuff

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6b3_1390161381

I'm still not entirely clear on who exactly these "folks" are. The term "fascist" has been thrown around, but aren't fascists often (though not always) Eurosceptics? How many, if any, are supporters of liberal opposition leaders who just decided that chanting "Shame, shame, shame!" wasn't a good enough response to police brutality? Where exactly are the genuine leftists in this situation?

[fractal-vortex]

What's going on in Ukraine?

This article was written as a commentary on an article by an Egyptian anarchist, titled "Ukraine: what's going on and what does it mean?" In particular, the article poses the riddle: the opposition against the Ukrainian government is pro-capitalist, rabidly nationalist, almost fascist, but yet, it gets the support of thousands of people. Why do the people choose to support this opposition? The article below discusses the riddle.

1. The history since the break up of the Soviet Union has been the history of struggle for privatization of state, national assets. The struggle has been headed by "mafia", which in the former USSR means a combination of "nomenclature" ("communist" party high officials) working together with gangsters (see a book "The Great Criminal Revolution. Mafia in Power" by Anatoly Tilley, 2003, in Russian).

2. "Mafia" traditionally, as we know, break up into clans, for example by national and territory criteria. In Ukraine, the mafia from the East of the country is Tatar mafia, headed by the richest man in Ukraine Rinat Akhmetov, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rinat_Akhmetov

He is the man behind the current President of Ukraine, who is also a gangster, appointed to the position by the former President, Leonid Kuchma, as a way of keeping control over the Donetsk region, wild with shootings, etc. (A kind of "Wild West", see a movie about the region, "Criminal occupation"; the movie is in Russian, a documentary of mafia and rise of Yanukovich.)

More, and pictures taken by me, in Ukraine, see here:
http://fractal-vortex.narod.ru/2014/what_is_going_on_in_Ukraine.htm

Fractal-vortex, Kiev, Ukraine

[KurtFF8]

I'm still not entirely clear on who exactly these "folks" are. The term "fascist" has been thrown around, but aren't fascists often (though not always) Eurosceptics? How many, if any, are supporters of liberal opposition leaders who just decided that chanting "Shame, shame, shame!" wasn't a good enough response to police brutality? Where exactly are the genuine leftists in this situation?

Well the real question is where is the genuine Left in the Ukraine in general. And at best this situation shows that it is not nearly strong enough to intervene in any meaningful way. And of course at "worst" this is not really a movement about the capitalist class versus the working class, but rather about pro-Western/EU segments of society versus anti-Western/EU

[khad]

Christ, go find something else to do your time you pathetic shut in.
Go see the world outside of your suburban bubble, kid.

[Sea]

How people can imply that one should have to be homeless when serious war-driven shortages prevent homes from being pretty enough (which is subjective anyway!) is beyond me. Unless there is a third option that I am unaware of.
Christ, go find something else to do your time you pathetic shut in.In the future it would be of the benefit of the forum if you refrained from being full of shit. Thank you for your cooperation.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

ugly claustrophobic apartment blocks, and

While I agree with your sentiment in general terms, don't fucking knock the blocks. The Ukrainian blocks are some fine pieces of engineering. CT16 for ever.

[Ele'ill]

holy shit

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d39_1390402456

[Rss]

I'm still not entirely clear on who exactly these "folks" are. The term "fascist" has been thrown around, but aren't fascists often (though not always) Eurosceptics? How many, if any, are supporters of liberal opposition leaders who just decided that chanting "Shame, shame, shame!" wasn't a good enough response to police brutality? Where exactly are the genuine leftists in this situation?

Just take a look at one of main opposition leaders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleh_Tyahnybok


In the majority of his motions he opposed the introduction of the Russian language as the second official state language, proposed recognition of the fighting role of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists and Ukrainian Insurgent Army during World War II, called for the lustration of former communist officials, security service officers and undercover agents, and demanded the prohibition of communist ideology.[10] None of these motions where adopted.[10]
On July 20, 2004, Tyahnybok was expelled from the Our Ukraine parliamentary faction[8][11] after he made a speech in the Carpathian Mountains at the gravesite of a commander of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army.[11] In the speech, which was aired on television in the summer of 2004, he made comments like:[12]
"[You are the ones] that the Moscow-Jewish mafia ruling Ukraine fears most"[11]
and
"They were not afraid and we should not be afraid. They took their automatic guns on their necks and went into the woods, and fought against the Moskali, Germans, Kikes and other scum who wanted to take away our Ukrainian state."[10]

So yeah. Klitschko is just less of a thug. I repeat the real aforementioned question: Where is the genuine left? Any ukrainians here?

[TriPac Dude]

Hi, I totally agree with you. I am a Ukrainian living in America, but I closely follow Ukrainian news. Yanukovich and his cronies are destroying our beautiful country. I don't know about you, but I am Ukrainian to the very core of my soul, and I really hate the way Yanukovich is trying to sell Ukraines soul to that evil dictator Putin and the Russian supremacists.

[Ele'ill]

https://libcom.org/news/neo-nazis-far-right-protesters-ukraine-23012014

[CamusStyle]

First of all I'm going to state the obvious. Police brutality must be condemned and those murdering pigs,too.

If the "free"- yeah, yeah, I know- people of Ukraine want to choose a different master to obey that's their choice. Cypriots did the same thing while AKEL- a """"communist"""" party- was the largest party in th parliament. Christofias' presidency some years later (communist leader of AKEL) did nothing to reverse the membership to EU or use it to help the cypriot people in general. Under AKEL Cyprus functioned exactly as any social-democratic party would. So don't be surprised by CPU' reaction. In my experience very few large communist parties remain true to the goal of a socialist revolution and advocate class struggle. Does the Russian CP, does the French, does the CP of Moldavia, the South African or the Brazilian for that matter behave according to the principles of M-L? No.
EU is a very dangerous organisation, especially when juxtaposed to the US or IMF because it projects a liberal profile. Nobody can disagree that it was created with the goal to unite the capitalits' interests in Europe. Not only that, but after Maastricht, Lisbon and Nice its all the more obvious that its rules and regulations help the upper classes of the richest and exporting states, while sufocating the satellite states. But on the other hand I am more and more concerned with the imperialist tendencies shown by Russia. Its belligerence is climaxing amidst the global recession and it's reminding me a lot of the good ol' US of A lately.

[fugazi]

I am in favor of a continuation of the protests.
The Left (and probably some form of a coalition of *gasp* liberals) should seek to distance themselves from the right-led opposition. To do this they can continue protesting but should just seek to do so in a different location. It would be a good way avoid confrontation and the threat of violence from the right.

[Hexen]

24 January 2014 Last updated at 11:14 ET Share this page



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Ukraine unrest: Protesters storm regional offices

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/72503000/jpg/_72503306_72503305.jpg
Barricades of snowbags, tyres and wooden sticks surround the Lviv regional state administration office, as Steve Rosenberg reports

Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25876807#story_continues_1) Ukraine's protests



Torture allegations (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25858875)
Q&A: What's behind protests? (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25182823)
Protest deaths shake media (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25863570)
First deaths in Kiev (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25843557)



Anti-government demonstrators in Ukraine are expanding their protests after talks between the opposition and President Viktor Yanukovych stalled.
In western Ukraine, activists seized the regional government office in the city of Ivano-Frankivsk and are storming another one in Chernivtsi.
Protests were reported in Lutsk, in the north-west, and Sumy, in the east.
Meanwhile, Mr Yanukovych vowed to use "all legal means" if a solution to the crisis is not found.
At a meeting with religious leaders, he also promised to amend anti-protests laws rushed through parliament last week and reshuffle the government at an urgent session of parliament due to begin on Tuesday.
And he said amnesty would be granted to those detained activists who had not committed "grave crimes".
In the capital, Kiev, new barricades were erected as the main protest camp expanded.
Continue reading the main story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25876807#story_continues_2) Analysis

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49564000/jpg/_49564771_jex_841886_de27-1.jpg Steve Rosenberg BBC News, Lviv
The Lviv regional state administration office resembles something from protest-hit Kiev. All around the building there are barricades of snow bags, tyres and wooden sticks.
On Thursday, hundreds of anti-government protesters seized control here.
Inside, I met "commandant" Andriy, the man in charge here now and the head of the local trade union. Andriy told me that the protesters were motivated by anger at what was happening in Kiev.
They blame the authorities for the violence and for death of anti-government activist Yuri Verbytsky, who was from Lviv. He was found dead in a forest outside Kiev. "People," Andriy said, "have the right to rise up."
It's a similar picture in other parts of western Ukraine, where protesters have been picketing local government offices and, in some cases, taking control.
It's in this region that opposition to President Yanukovych has traditionally been strongest - and pro-Europe sentiment most keenly felt.


In pictures: Ukraine protests (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25885588)


Demonstrators braving freezing conditions in Kiev's Independence Square - widely known as the Maidan - also occupied a government building as a truce with riot police continued.
Meanwhile, the parliament of the Crimean Autonomous Republic - seen as a staunch supporter of Mr Yanukovych - urged the president to declare a state of emergency.
In other developments on Friday:


Germany and France are summoning Ukraine's ambassadors over recent deadly clashes in Kiev
The EU's enlargement commissioner, Stefan Fuele, has held talks in Kiev with Mr Yanukovych and is due to meet opposition leaders
Mr Yanukovych names Security and Defence Secretary Andriy Kluyev as new head of the presidential administration

The crisis escalated earlier this week when the first deaths in the unrest happened.
Two protesters were shot during rioting on Hrushevskyy Street near the Maidan. The opposition says they were killed by riot police or snipers - the government denies the claim.
An activist was also found dead in woods near Kiev after apparently being abducted, tortured and left to die in the snow.
The demonstrations were initially triggered by the government's last-minute decision to ditch a proposed association and free trade deal with the EU in November.
But protesters later widened their demand to include the fight against what activists say are widespread government corruption and abuse of power.
The authorities deny the allegations.
Maidan vote In Ivano-Frankivsk, some 1,500 protesters occupied the regional administration and barricaded themselves in the building, according to the Ukrainska Pravda website.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/72500000/jpg/_72500507_020765219-1.jpg In Kiev, women begged riot police not to attack protesters
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/72495000/jpg/_72495819_020761854-1.jpg A slogan inside the newly occupied agricultural policy ministry reads "Power to the people"
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/72495000/jpg/_72495824_020762306-1.jpg Protesters said they had moved into the building to get out of the cold and to rest
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/72495000/jpg/_72495826_020762656-1.jpg On Independence Square, snow covers the protesters' tents
The protesters are now demanding that the local governor should resign immediately.
In Chernivsti, crowds stormed the governor's office as police tried to protect the building. People shouted "Shame on you!" and "Resign!"
In Lutsk, a big demonstration is being held outside the local administration. Unrest was also seen in Sumy.
Regional offices are being blockaded in the western city of Uzhgorod.
Meanwhile in Lviv, protesters have built barricades around the governor's office that they seized on Thursday. There were also reports that some members of the special police, Berkut, were resigning.
In Kiev, masked activists stood guard around the newly-build defence barriers. Some activists were seen carrying riot shields captured from the police as trophies.
The barricades took shape on Hryshevskyy Street and also closer to the presidential administration building.
One group of protesters took control of the main agricultural ministry building, reportedly meeting no resistance.
"We need to keep people warm in the frost," protester Andriy Moiseenko was quoted as saying by the Associated Press, as temperatures dipped towards minus 16C.
Ministry workers were allowed to take their possessions but not permitted to go to work.
Former boxer Vitaly Klitschko, one of three opposition leaders who met Mr Yanukovych, came back on Thursday evening saying the president had made no real concessions.
"Hours of conversation were spent about nothing," he said.
People on the Maidan later voted to stop any talks with the president, and the decision was taken to expand the main protest camp.
The opposition had been calling for harsh new anti-protest laws to be repealed, a snap presidential election and the resignation of the government.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/72495000/jpg/_72495827_ukraine_protests_624v6.jpg
Appeal for restraint Justice Minister Olena Lukash said on Thursday that further talks would take place, without saying when.
Mr Klitschko, Arseniy Yatsenyuk and fellow opposition leader Oleh Tyahnybok had failed to condemn "extremist actions" at the talks, she added.
Interior Minister Vitali Zakharchenko issued a statement guaranteeing that police would not take action against the protest camp on Independence Square.
He urged police officers to "exercise restraint and not to react to petty provocations".
Earlier, his ministry apologised after video footage emerged showing police humiliating a protester, who was made to walk around naked in the snow.
http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/72416000/jpg/_72416371_kiev_protests_624map_v3.jpg
Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25876807

Now what can we make out of this (the situation in Ukraine) and should the protestors be supported or not?

[Mather]

Now what can we make out of this (the situation in Ukraine) and should the protestors be supported or not?

Absolutely not.

While the government of Viktor Yanukovych is undoubtedly a corrupt bourgeois government tied to the interests of Russian imperialism and capitalism, the protestors are no better. Indeed, a good chunk of them are a lot worse.

The protestors are split into two main camps.

The first is the pro-EU camp represented by the three main opposition parties: All-Ukrainian Union "Fatherland", led by Yulia Tymoshenko; Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform, led by Vitali Klitschko; Svoboda (Freedom), led by Oleh Tyahnybok. The first two are liberal/centre-right formations and Svoboda is a far-right nationalist formation. They are supported by the US and EU (especially the German government) and for good reason as they all wish to 'open up' the Ukrainian economy to the predatory advances of European capitalism and their ruling classes.

The second camp is even worse. They are outright neo-nazis and fascists and while they wish to turn Ukraine away from Russia and it's interests, they do not want Ukraine to join the EU either. This camp is represented by the fascist formation know as Pravy Sektor who reject Russia, the EU and democracy and demand a "national revolution". This group has been behind the most recent wave of violence and have taken to using guns and carrying out attacks, leading many to fear that the crisis in Ukraine could now turn into a civil war.

This crisis is ultimately a battle between rival capitalist and imperialist interests and neither side has anything to offer the working class. It is a sad thing to say but the working class in the Ukraine seems to lack any form of organisation, so the chances of this crisis developing in a progressive direction seem very slim, if not non-existent.

[Skyhilist]

Damn, they protest hard, wish they were less reactionary. Seriously though, they built a catapult to shoot shit off at cops, how badass is that? I wish there were catapults at the protests I went to.

[Mather]

Damn, they protest hard, wish they were less reactionary. Seriously though, they built a catapult to shoot shit off at cops, how badass is that? I wish there were catapults at the protests I went to.

Your post is a good example of why I am critical of this fetishisation of protests, that is the admiration and glorification of protest and violence for it's own sake without ever looking at the wider political and social context.

Whether a protest is reactionary or progressive is down to the class forces at play and whether such a protest serves the interests of the working class or works against it. We must always approach protests and protest movements on this basis and not on whether the protestors ape the radical stereotype with balaclavas, molotov cocktails and fights with the police.

[The Jay]

Damn, they protest hard, wish they were less reactionary. Seriously though, they built a catapult to shoot shit off at cops, how badass is that? I wish there were catapults at the protests I went to.

What kinds of protests did you go to?

[Ele'ill]

there are like three threads now on this can a mod or admin merge them into one preferably the first one

[fugazi]

There was a Ukranian poster who called for some form of program a while ago.
I was wondering if they could weigh in on what is happening there.
At libcom the sentiment seems to be that there are proto-fascist elements within the uprising. Naturally this is disturbing and many people are skeptical about supporting the revolution. I was wondering if anyone could give us some sort of ground truth as to what the actual situation is there.

[Mather]

Naturally this is disturbing and many people are skeptical about supporting the revolution.

The events taking place in the Ukraine are no revolution.

A revolution is when one class rises up and overthrows another, changing the means of production and the structure of society with it. The crisis in the Ukraine is one faction of the capitalist class struggling against another faction of that very same class, with rival imperialist powers (USA and EU vs Russia) backing their preferred sides.

[fugazi]

Uprising, civil unrest, whatever.

[Mather]

Uprising, civil unrest, whatever.

Yes, it is an uprising (though a reactionary one).

I know it may seem like I'm being pedantic with words but it is an important difference.

[fugazi]

reactionary even is a bit of a stretch even
centre-right
they want to join the EU I guess
some things about 'democracy'
http://maidantranslations.wordpress.com/
svoboda isn't mentioned here
their flag isn't even present

[Skyhilist]

What kinds of protests did you go to?

Lame American ones that can barely draw a crowd usually. Well at least in my region, all the protests are usually pretty lame and ineffectual imo.

[Sasha]

AWU Statement on the Current Political Situation in Ukraine

The laws which were passed on January 16th showed that the faction of the ruling class which now controls the government is ready to install a reactionary bourgeois dictatorship on the model of the Latin American regimes of the 1970s. The “dictatorship laws” criminalize any protest and limit the freedom of speech; also, they establish responsibility for “extremism”.
https://www.indymedia.nl/indyfiles/imagecache/cropstrip/raw/acab_0.jpg
Parliamentary mouthpieces of the class dictatorship of corrupted bureaucracy and monopolist bourgeoisie are the Party of Regions and the so called “Communist” Party of Ukraine which has long ago become a political force serving interests of capital.The Ukrainian repressive system leans on the police apparatus and street gangs of pro-government stormtroopers. Sometimes such paramilitary structures are commanded by retired police officers. Death squads are also in action. According to confirmed information, two people were kidnapped from a hospital and tortured. One of them died in a forest. Special forces use pinpoint firing against protesters, and not only from traumatic guns. One of the killed, according to a photo of his body, was shot in his heart. According to all indications he was a victim of a sniper. In the morning of January 23 the number of the killed constituted from 5 to 7 persons. And we don’t know the real scale of violence.
The ideology of the ruling regime is a mixture of Putin-style nationalism, conspiracy theories and conviction in their right, as elite, to rule over stupid populace. Groups of support to Berkut (the main riot police force) in social networks are full of anti-Semitic articles which claim that the opposition leaders are Jews and want to vitiate the people by legalizing same-sex marriages. This hardly differs from the rhetoric of Ukrainian right radicals.
Over the last days not only the far right confront the government, but also people of more moderate views. And they constitute the majority of the protesters. Many of them are indifferent to nationalism or negatively predisposed to it. Many of them don’t support integration into the EU. People go into the streets to protest against police violence. And a significant part of them is unenthusiastic or even skeptical about the clashes in the Grushevskogo street. Often one can hear that right radicals are a “Trojan horse” of Yanukovych and special services, designed to discredit the protest. Certainly there would be many more Kievites participating in the protests if there was a way to take those idiots useful to the government out of the streets. Top of their demands is to give them jobs in the Security Service of Ukraine after the “victorious revolution”.
Anarchists ought to participate in demonstrations and pickets which are dedicated to defense of the rights and freedoms usurped by the laws of January 16th. It makes sense to take action at one’s workplace or neighborhood and to help sabotage the dictatorship’s decisions. There’s not much sense in participating in the activities in Grushevskogo street, which were meaningless from the very beginning. These activities only give the government pretty picture for television and enable it to identify radical elements by locating mobile phones and videotaping.
In the case of the opposition’s victory, as well as in the case of the government’s victory we’ll have to wage long and hard war against any of those regimes. This should be understood. We need to gather forces in order to start propagating our own libertarian and proletarian agenda in Ukrainian politics.
No gods, no masters! No nations, no borders!
Autonomous Workers’ Union, Kiev local
January 23, 2014


http://avtonomia.net/

[Sasha]

from the same site;


To the members of GUE/NGL faction in the European Parliament, Gabriele Zimmer

Dear comrades.,
We, the members of leftist, trade union and human rights organizations in Ukraine, as well as individual activists, would like to draw your attention to the recent events in our country.
On Thursday, 16th of January 2014 without the discussion and contrary to its own regulations and to the Constitution of Ukraine, the Ukrainian parliament, passed a series of laws directed at limiting freedom of speech and citizens’ right to peaceful protest. One of the approved items is the infamous amendment to the Criminal Code which bans so-called “extremism”. In this amendment “inciting social discord” is defined as “extremism”. It is clear that any kind of drawing attention to social problems, to the blatant inequality that exists in Ukrainian society, can be qualified as “inciting social discord”, therefore the activities of left, trade union and social activists in Ukraine can be criminalized to a large extent.
The Communist Party of Ukraine (CPU) plays a particularly shameful part in these events. Not only did the Communist Party’s faction unanimously voted for the repressive bills, but the CPU official website also features materials that condemn the recent protests as being inspired by foreign actors with the aim of destabilizing Ukraine. Spreading such opinion, the CPU in fact fulfills the task of the whitewashing of Yanukovych’s regime.
It is true that open anti-communists do play a significant role on Maidan, but this anti-communism is caused mostly by the arrogant position of the Communist Party itself. It is not the first time the CPU has tried to de-legitimize civil protests and adopted a conservative position. In addition to this, in the country that suffered the catastrophic losses caused by hunger and repressions during the Stalinist regime, the CPU refuses to condemn the actions of the USSR’s leaders or at least apologize for them, which makes socialist ideas less popular in Ukrainian society.
Yanukovych’s regime has demonstrated its readiness for repressions. It is evident today that the CPU will use its international connections in order to justify this regime’s actions. That is why we believe that the left all around the world and especially in the European Union must terminate any relations with the Communist Party of Ukraine and condemn its actions.
We believe that the party that treats popular uprisings with open hatred, the party that speaks out against “inciting social discord”, is not fit to be called communist or leftist and is “communist” in name only.
We ask you to bring this letter to the attention of the leadership of the parties which are members of your Union.

Autonomous Workers Union – Kyiv,
18/01/2014

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

In addition to this, in the country that suffered the catastrophic losses caused by hunger and repressions during the Stalinist regime, the CPU refuses to condemn the actions of the USSR’s leaders or at least apologize for them, which makes socialist ideas less popular in Ukrainian society.

And that excuses the open apologia for Ukrainian fascism? Now there's an old slogan, first used by the Ukrainian fascists themselves, that one would expect "anarchists and libertarian Marxists" to reject.

Why is it so important to attach oneself to every disturbance? It seems that certain segments of the left are so starved for attention that they have nothing against sharing a platform with Banderists.

And yes, Ukraine is a bourgeois state, the Ukrainian communist party is a conservative outfit whose "communism" is on the level of Zyuganov and so on. But that doesn't mean the left should support open fascists.

[Sasha]

Wow, way to cherrypick the statement, als this is an statement by a workers union from Kiev itself, and they are just as critical of the far right parts of the opposition as they are of the regime.

[Ele'ill]

More


Narj_jAlV7M

a94mNfmZ1gc

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

Wow, way to cherrypick the statement, als this is an statement by a workers union from Kiev itself, and they are just as critical of the far right parts of the opposition as they are of the regime.

I quote from the first press release:


Anarchists ought to participate in demonstrations and pickets which are dedicated to defense of the rights and freedoms usurped by the laws of January 16th.

This is not qualified in any way - even though one would expect that, given the prominence of fascist "protesters", the "anarchists and libertarian Marxists" (I think anyone familiar with Ukrainian politics would question the affiliation of alleged left groups) would at least raise the slogan of not giving a platform to Banderists.

I mean, using this sort of illogic, German communists should have joined the NSDAP in protesting repressive measures by the Weimar government.

In the second release they say:


We believe that the party that treats popular uprisings with open hatred[...]

So they view protests infiltrated by fascists and "persons indifferent to nationalism" (how lovely) as a popular uprising. Were the protests of German fascists in interwar Austria a popular uprising as well, then?

[Ele'ill]

i think that statement is simply saying that there should be participation in relevant demonstrations and pickets not that there should be participation in *the* demonstration. It's saying so what if the right is in the street that doesn't mean we let our guard down, forget about solidarity, or miss opportunities to act

[guy123]

http://www.thecommunists.net/worldwide/europe/ukraine-neither-brussels-nor-moscow/
rcit statement
Ukraine: Neither Brussels nor Moscow! For an independent Workers’ Republic!
A reactionary opposition mobilizes against a reactionary government. For independent working class mobilizations against both factions of Ukraine’s ruling class!
Statement of the Revolutionary Communist International Tendency (RCIT), 18.12.2013, www.thecommunists.net

1. For several weeks Ukraine has been marked by mobilizations both against and for the country’s accession to the European Union. At the same time, these demonstrations have also been mobilizations both against and for support of the government of President Viktor Yanukovych. Behind this conflict lies a struggle between different sections of Ukraine’s ruling class. Ukraine is a semi-colonial country which is split between the dominant imperialist powers to its East and West – the European Union and Russia. The RCIT maintains that class conscious workers and socialists must support neither the pro-EU nor the pro-Russian faction of the capitalist class. The present mobilizations don’t represent an independent organization of workers and youth to advance their interests, but rather the attempt of the right-wing and fascist faction of the bourgeoisie to bring down the equally reactionary Yanukovych government. It is urgent that class conscious workers and socialists advance an independent working class viewpoint and build militant trade unions as well as a Workers’ Party based on a revolutionary program.
2. The recent protest demonstrations began in late November after Ukraine’s government of President Viktor Yanukovych refused to sign an Association Agreement with the European Union. These demonstrations were instigated by an alliance consisting primarily of three parties: two right wing capitalist parties (the Fatherland Party of Arseniy Yatsenyuk and the imprisoned Yulia Tymoshenko as well as the Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform [UDAR] led by the professional boxer Vitali Klitschko). In addition, the fascist Svoboda (Freedom) party under the leadership of Oleg Tyagnibok joined this alliance. This opposition coalition has the full support of EU and US imperialism who openly demonstrate this by sending leading representatives like US senators John McCain and Chris Murphy as well as Elmar Brok (chairman of the European Parliament Foreign Policy Committee) to address the protest rallies. This foreign intrusion is the political expression of Western imperialism’s advance in the Ukraine.
3. Russian imperialism is also trying to draw the Ukraine into its sphere of influence. Ukraine is highly dependent on Russia which is by far Kiev’s largest trading partner (accounting for about 22-23% of Ukraine’s imports and exports). Russian monopoly capital is one of the three big foreign investors in Ukraine (alongside Germany and Austria). Russian corporations like Gazprom, Lukoil, TNK BP, RUSAL, and the Alfa Group dominate the oil refining, metallurgy, and aluminum sectors, and also play a leading role in other key industries like gas and telecommunications. Chinese corporations are also increasingly active in making foreign investments in Ukraine’s fertile agricultural sector in addition to others.
4. The Putin regime is pressuring Yanukovych to join the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia as well as the Eurasian Economic Community as a full member. The Eurasian Economic Community is an instrument dominated by Russian imperialism and currently includes the full member states Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan (suspended), as well as Armenia, Moldova, Ukraine as observers. Both EU imperialism and Russian imperialism hope to drag the Ukraine into their respective orbits in order to increase their exploitation of the country and to increase, each its own, geopolitical influence.
5. The current conflict reflects divisions inside the Ukraine capitalist class which is dominated by a handful of oligarchs. The “Donets Clan”, led by the country’s richest billionaire Rinat Achmetov, represents the coal and mining capitalists in the Ukraine’s east, which traditionally has close relations with Russia. President Yanukovych is the representative of the “Donets Clan”. Another clan led by the oligarch Dmitry Firtash is based on corporations in the chemical and gas industry and controls the largest TV group “Inter.” This group also has close connections with the camp of President Yanukovych and his Party of Regions, but gives tactical support for Klitschko’s UDAR as well.
6. These different factions of Ukraine’s ruling class are divided on how they can best raise their profits. They are torn and thus waver between the two imperialist Great Powers on their borders – the EU and Russia. The RCIT sees the campaign of the European Union to have Ukraine’s government sign the Association Agreement as part of its drive to re-colonize the Ukraine. The EU is an imperialist bloc dominated by two great powers, Germany and France. Russia’s pressure to drag the Ukraine into its Customs Union and its Eurasian Economic Community reflects basically the same desire. Moscow also wants to re-colonize the Ukraine.
7. The Ukraine itself is a capitalist semi-colony which is oppressed and exploited by both Western and Eastern imperialist powers. In the Ukraine – like in the rest of the former USSR – the aborted political revolution against the tyrannical Stalinist bureaucracy in 1989-91 led to the victory of the capitalist counter-revolution and the destruction of the planned economy and its social achievements. As a result, mass impoverishment and unemployment spread. According to the IMF, real wages in 1998 had fallen by more than 75% in relation to their 1991 level. Life expectancy declined by four years during this period. The destruction of the productive forces caused by the restoration of capitalism has been so devastating that Ukraine’s output measured by its Gross Domestic Product today is still 35% below its level of 1989! The Great Recession of the capitalist world economy in 2008/09 – which launched an historic world-wide revolutionary period in the wake of the continuing decline of capitalism – had a massive impact on Ukraine’s manufacturing. Industrial production first dropped by 5.2% (2008) and subsequently collapsed a further, staggering 21.9% (2009). Today, official unemployment figures stand at 8.5%.
8. In addition to the increasing domination of Ukraine’s industry by foreign corporations, the country’s banking sector is also characterized by a strong presence of imperialist capital. The share of foreign capital in the Ukraine’s banks amounts to 41.8% (2012), of which the three biggest foreign investors are Austrian, French, and Russian banks. Ukraine is also increasingly indebted to imperialist financial capital. In recent years, the country’s gross foreign debt has grown massively and, at the end of the first half of 2013, totaled $134.4 billion, the equivalent of 75.7% of its Gross Domestic Product. All this further emphasizes that Ukraine is an industrialized but impoverished capitalist semi-colony dominated by Western and Eastern imperialist powers.
9. For these reasons, the RCIT opposes Ukraine’s joining either the European Union or Russia’s empire. We are aware that such a refusal by Ukraine to join both of the imperialist camps can only be a first step on the road to achieving true national independence. Such authentic independence is only possible if the working class in the Ukraine abolishes capitalism and builds an independent Workers’ Republic as part of a socialist federation of Europe and Asia. However, as a first step, we support those workers organizations in the Ukraine which oppose integration into both the EU and Russia’s empire.
10. As we have explained above, the recent mobilizations of demonstrators in favor of signing the Association Agreement with the European Union has absolutely no progressive character whatsoever. Of course, there are a number of people among the protestors who authentically hate the government and the misery in which they are forced to live. In spite of the non-progressive character of the demonstrations, we equally oppose the brutal police tactics against the protestors. But both the reactionary agenda of the protests (attempting to lead the Ukraine into the imperialist EU) and their thoroughly reactionary leadership (the Fatherland Party, UDAR, and the Svoboda-Nazis) make it clear that this is not an authentic popular democratic movement which could or should be supported by communists. Neither would it be legitimate for us communists to give any support to the pro-government mobilizations, or to the counter-demand to lead the Ukraine into the de facto Russian empire (Customs Union and Eurasian Economic Community). We do not exclude, in advance, the possibility that a massive crackdown of the movement by the Yanukovych regime might change the character of the demonstrations and transforms them into legitimate democratic resistance. But this is not presently the case.
11. Bolshevik-Communists condemn the so-called “Communist Party of Ukraine” (KPU). This party supports capitalism and was part of the part of first Azarov Government in 2010-2012 (together with the bourgeois Bloc Lytvyn and the Party of Regions). Today the leadership around Petro Symonenko supports the government and demands Ukraine’s entry into the Russia-dominated Customs Union. So while UDAR and the Fatherland Party are instruments of EU imperialism, the KPU is a tool of Russian imperialism.
12. The RCIT maintains that the working class must adopt an independent position in this conflict, and refuse to side with either camp of the greedy oligarchs and their parties, whether those in the government or in the opposition. Workers’ must equally refuse to side with the EU or Russian imperialism and reject Ukraine’s joining one of the two sides in what amounts to a conflict between two different imperialist camps. The only way forward is for workers to bring together their defense of their living conditions, their democratic rights, and the country’s independence by struggling for a workers’ government and a socialist revolution in Ukraine and throughout Eastern Europe. This can be only be achieved by an organized struggle of the working class, led by a revolutionary party in the tradition of Lenin and Trotsky. Under the present circumstances, where the working class lacks any meaningful mass organizations, it is essential to build strong and militant trade union and mass organizations of working men, women, and youth. Most important, is the creation of an independent workers’ party based on a revolutionary program.
13. From the very start, creating such a revolutionary workers party must be done in conjunction with the efforts to establish a new World Party of Socialist Revolution. In our opinion, such a new party will be the Fifth Workers’ International. The RCIT calls revolutionaries in the Ukraine to unite in a Bolshevik organization based on an internationalist and communist program. We look forward to discussing these issues and collaborating with revolutionaries in the Ukraine, in order to advance the formation of such a revolutionary organization.

[fugazi]

Wow, way to cherrypick the statement, als this is an statement by a workers union from Kiev itself, and they are just as critical of the far right parts of the opposition as they are of the regime.

The AWU is a small group and fairly isolated. I read an interview with one of their members. They are critical of both sides and have the best assessment of the situation that I have seen so far. They should be supported

[Sasha]

I quote from the first press release:



like i say, cherry picking, this is the bit you quoted in its relevant paragraph;


Over the last days not only the far right confront the government, but also people of more moderate views. And they constitute the majority of the protesters. Many of them are indifferent to nationalism or negatively predisposed to it. Many of them don’t support integration into the EU. People go into the streets to protest against police violence. And a significant part of them is unenthusiastic or even skeptical about the clashes in the Grushevskogo street. Often one can hear that right radicals are a “Trojan horse” of Yanukovych and special services, designed to discredit the protest. Certainly there would be many more Kievites participating in the protests if there was a way to take those idiots useful to the government out of the streets. Top of their demands is to give them jobs in the Security Service of Ukraine after the “victorious revolution”.
Anarchists ought to participate in demonstrations and pickets which are dedicated to defense of the rights and freedoms usurped by the laws of January 16th. It makes sense to take action at one’s workplace or neighborhood and to help sabotage the dictatorship’s decisions. There’s not much sense in participating in the activities in Grushevskogo street, which were meaningless from the very beginning.

(emphasis mine)

if you are so knowledgeable about the situation in Kiev as you pretend, you would know that Grusheskogo street is the main mobilization point for the extreme-right "national revolutionaries"...

[E-Shock Executioner]

I think the left is missing the point with framing it like "pro-EU" versus "anti-EU". The question we ought to be asking is "is the European working class stronger in a united or divided manner?" and asking the question is answering it.

So, instead of being anti-EU (and therefore be pro-nationalist or pro-some-other-imperialist-bloc like Russia) the left should be putting forward the question of democracy on a continental level. We shouldn't be saying "less Brussels", but "ok, we want more unity, but we want a Europe of the common people, a Europe of the majority, we want a European Democratic Republic". This in turn would immensely strengthen our class against capital and, for that reason, the bourgeoisie will oppose full unification in this manner.

We'll Q, if Ukraine joined the EU, then it would be sort of like in the US.

There's a false consciousness of development, and a shadow goverment that while not as deadly as the USAs CIA/FBI, is still a pain in the ass for some leftists in the EU.

Personally, I think the Ukraine should pursue sorvegionety, or, if the left have the greatest miracle in unitre poltical history, join Venezuelas goverment

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

like i say, cherry picking, this is the bit you quoted in its relevant paragraph;

[...]

(emphasis mine)

if you are so knowledgeable about the situation in Kiev as you pretend, you would know that Grusheskogo street is the main mobilization point for the extreme-right "national revolutionaries"...

Not "national revolutionaries" or "nationalists", fascists. And yes, Grushevskogo u. is the main rallying point for the Banderists - but they are present in other locations, and apparently the AST wouldn't mind sharing a platform with them in "demonstrations and pickets... dedicated to defense of rights and freedoms".

I mean, come on. Not so long ago, when reactionaries went out to protest, communists were there - to disperse them. Now alleged communists join their protests, whether the reactionaries in question are Paulbots or Islamists or, now, Banderists. What's next? Joint EDL-"communist" protests? "Socialist" parties demanding "British jobs for British workers" (oops, that happened)? Nazbol-"communist" pickets? Let's just throw all our principles away and join every little commotion, that will certainly help us carry out our tasks.

Seriously, psycho, if you were a worker in Ukraine now, would you trust the blatantly anti-worker government or those who carry around pictures of Ukrainian fascists and those who give them "left" cover more? I wouldn't trust either. Likewise if you were gay, a Jew, etc. etc.


Personally, I think the Ukraine should pursue sorvegionety, or, if the left have the greatest miracle in unitre poltical history, join Venezuelas goverment

...and remain a bourgeois state to be overthrown in both cases.

[Polciu]

The Communist Party of Ukraine has been banned in 3 regions out of 10 which were supposedly overtaken by the Opposition.

http://merera.livejournal.com/295995.html

[cyu]

Hellow fellow commies! I am new hear. Can u tell me who I should trust more in my country? The Democrats or the Republicans?

</sarcasm>

[fractal-vortex]

this is dead wrong. Neither Ukraine, nor Russia are "capitalist states"!

[Sentinel]

Things are escalating quickly. BBC reports that the protestors now have occupied the ministry of justice and are raising barricades around it. The government is threatening to impose a 'state of emergency'


Ukraine's justice minister has warned anti-government protesters occupying her ministry she will call for a state of emergency if they do not leave.

Olena Lukash told local media she would ask the National Security and Defence Council to introduce the measures.

Protesters seized the building in Kiev late on Sunday and set up barricades outside with bags of snow.

Unrest is spreading across Ukraine, with activists taking over municipal buildings in up to 10 cities.

Buildings have come under attack even in eastern areas which have traditionally had closer ties with Russia and where President Viktor Yanukovych has enjoyed strong support

Full article (http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25908643)

Oh, and then there is this thing: A site called Intellihub claims that according to rumours 1400 Russian Spetznaz troops might be arriving to Kiev. :ohmy: I must say here though, I have never heard of that site before and have no idea if they are serious/reliable.

But Aftonbladet, largest evening newspaper in Sweden, is linking to them on their webpage, in the same article which lead me to the BBC one.

Link (http://intellihub.com/russian-troops-arriving-in-ukraine-to-battle-protesters)

IF it's true that Russia intervenes I think it's fairly certain that those EU plans can be put on the shelf until further notice, so to speak..

Edit: reading about that site, 'Intellihub', it seems to be some kind of open news source thing where anyone can post news.. Also just seems a bit weird somehow. I would not trust these news before they are confirmed elsewhere.

[fractal-vortex]

Things are escalating quickly. BBC reports that the protestors now have occupied the ministry of justice and are raising barricades around it. The goverment is threatening to impose a 'state of emergency'



Full article (http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25908643)

Oh, and then there is this thing: A site called Intellihub claims that according to rumours 1400 Russian Spetznaz troops might be arriving to Kiev. :ohmy: I must say here though, I have never heard of that site before and have no idea if they are serious/reliable.

But Aftonbladet, largest evening newspaper in Sweden, is linking to them on their webpage, in the same article which lead me to the BBC one.

Link (http://intellihub.com/russian-troops-arriving-in-ukraine-to-battle-protesters)

IF it's true that Russia intervenes I think it's fairly certain that those EU plans can be put on the shelf until further notice, so to speak..

Edit: reading about that site, 'Intellihub', it seems to be some kind of open news source thing where anyone can post news.. Also just seems a bit weird somehow. I would not trust these news before they are confirmed elsewhere.
I would like to repost my analysis of January 15, 2014, as nothing has changed, except that the situation has come closer to an all-out civil war.

First point: it should be understood that UKRAINE IS NOT A CAPITALIST COUNTRY.

. The history since the break up of the Soviet Union has been the history of struggle for privatization of state, national assets. The struggle has been headed by "mafia", which in the former USSR means a combination of "nomenclature" ("communist" party high officials) working together with gangsters (see a book "The Great Criminal Revolution. Mafia in Power" by Anatoly Tilley, 2003, in Russian).

2. "Mafia" traditionally, as we know, break up into clans, for example by national and territory criteria. In Ukraine, the mafia from the East of the country is Tatar mafia, headed by the richest man in Ukraine Rinat Akhmetov, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rinat_Akhmetov

He is the man behind the current President of Ukraine, who is also a gangster, appointed to the position by the former President, Leonid Kuchma, as a way of keeping control over the Donetsk region, wild with shootings, etc. (A kind of "Wild West", see a movie about the region, "Criminal occupation"; the movie is in Russian, a documentary of mafia and rise of Yanukovich.)


3. The mafia of the East is opposed by the mafia of the West (as in "The Wizard of Oz", where we have the witch of the East and the witch of the West). The mafia of the West wants to re-take some of the property and power which the Eastern gangsters have taken. They are opposed to the current pro-Russian president, and hence almost automatically win the support of the West, the imperialism, which is hungry for a piece of Ukraine, in a move to surround Russia (known as "NATO expansion to the East", remember Adolf Hitler's "Drang nach Osten"). So, we have a global political vector here. Money which is flowing freely at Maidan (main square in Kiev), in the form of food, blankets, tents, logistics, etc. partially coming from foreign embassies, the United States, first of all.

4. Why is there some popular support for the "Maidan", i.e. protests against the President? When Petro Poroshenko - an oligarch ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poroshenko ) - comes to preach at Maidan, there is very little support for him, because people know who he is (he was called "a dick" in this video of a crowd storming the Administration of the President). We're not fooled by his "popular, fraternal" messages (I am speaking "we" for I am living here, in Ukraine, and I mean "the people"). However, we're very glad to hear someone accusing our government of various crimes, such as stealing money from the state budget, total corruption in all social institutions, such as the schools, medicine, etc. And that is what the "Euromaidan" faction is doing.

"There is a crack, a crack, in everything, that's how the light gets in" - sings Leo Cohen. That's why there is a partial popular support for the current opposition's protests. The ruling caste - the gangsters - has split. And when one faction accuses the other one, we can hear some truth.

The break up of the ruling class has been one of the classical objective pre-conditions for a revolution.

People are learning to stand up, like free people. There are rising up from their feet, the former slaves. "Maidan" is a continuation of "glasnost" (openess, democracy) movement, started by Gorbachev in 1980's. The killers, the mafia are afraid of open exposition by masses. Their palaces are plastered with stickers "Property of gangsters", and they are shit scared. If the current "opposition" didn't call for peaceful protests, you may be sure that there would be blood already. Some people are wounded already, as for example Lutskenko a few days ago ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuriy_Lutsenko ; as a typical representative of "nomenclature" he was drank in the course of his fighting with "Berkut", the Internal Special Forces. That's another weakness of "mafia".) But a lot of effort is made to avoid murder, mass killings. And people are growing hungry and more radical. But the way, that's the basic reason for popular protests at Maidan: people want to survive, physically.

If in Auswitzch ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auswitzch ) concentration camp a protest was allowed against the current regime, even if led by gangsters of another stripe, do you think people would not support these different gangsters, in the hope of things changing? And things are growing worse and worse, from year to year. Believe someone who lives here... We're experiencing degradation of the Soviet era institutes and the whole way of living, Soviet era production, education, medicine, etc. And that which is "new" is mostly for the new rich, i.e. the gangsters and nomenclature.

There is very little chance of counterpropaganda among the people on Maidan, for there are informal security forces there, and they will hurt anyone who speaks out, for example against P. Poroshenko, or his politician, Oleh Tyahnibok ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleh_Tyahnybok ), a modern kind of Fuhrer.

People have tried to speak out, and had their noses broken, arms twisted, etc.

We have no party representing revolutionary aspirations of the people. We - I mean in Ukraine, and internationally. And that's our common problem.

Local anarchists, for example, are discussing Nestor Makhno, but not a word about the current political crisis. And those who discuss the current politics, like the article above, doesn't really understand the history of the country, the former USSR, and the nature of the current social struggle.

What do I propose, as a program?

1. An open debate about the nature of the current government, the current history, the crimes of the rulers and the "opposition".

2. Democracy.

3. Struggle for creating a new International party, with sections in all republics of the former USSR, and world wide. This party I see more of a reinstatement of the Third International, rather than a "Fifth International" called by Chavez, i.e. I see a need for "21 points" formulated by Lenin, only applied to modern conditions.

Only with a party we can talk of a popular protests moving in the right direction, i.e. send to the garbage bin Yanukoviches, Akhmetovs, together with Poroshenkos, Tyahniboks, etc.

Am I right or wrong? You can contact me at: [email protected]

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

this is dead wrong. Neither Ukraine, nor Russia are "capitalist states"!

What are they, if they are not capitalist states? What economic climate does a mafia operate in if not capitalism?

[cyu]

Organized crime itself is generally modelled after capitalist labor relationships - with the mafia boss at the top exploiting the efforts of his minions.

This doesn't have to be true of course - one might imagine an organized criminal institution modelled after more leftist organizational structures, with the rank-and-file voting for their bosses, or no bosses at all.

Still, I wouldn't exactly say that it's a good economic strategy if the organization weren't actually producing anything of value itself. Capitalism itself gives rise to such criminal organizations because capitalists require a large pool of poor, unemployed people to pay low wages to. The result is that many refuse to play their game, and turn to less legal means of making a living instead, rather than accept the capitalist's terms or suffer unemployment.

[Queen Mab]

First point: it should be understood that UKRAINE IS NOT A CAPITALIST COUNTRY.

Fuck off

[Leftsolidarity]

Fuck off

How about explaining why they are wrong? Or really anything else other than "fuck off".

Verbal Warning for one-liner/flaming.

[fugazi]

if the situation cools down and they agree to hold elections which way should the left vote?
(I know ... voting)
A regime change would open up the political discourse
I'm sure there are a lot of disaffected radicals who had a chance to meet there and perhaps they could put forth some sort of coalition
The Pro-Russia faction has promised not to support austerity measures however

A continuation of the conflict seems pretty bleak
I see little promise of anything 'revolutionary' through what looks like it could turn out to be an ethnic civil war

The old regime looks to be pretty stale
There only appears to be a chance at slight reforms under their rule
It also seems pretty paradoxical to support Klitschko if only for the right to protest the austerity measure he would impose

I watched a documentary called the Square about Tahir the other night
One of the arguments made was that the reason the Muslim Brotherhood was able to seize power was because they were the only game in town
Elections were held before the people had enough time to form parties

Perhaps some sort of transitionary period is necessary

[Mather]

reactionary even is a bit of a stretch even
centre-right
they want to join the EU I guess
some things about 'democracy'
http://maidantranslations.wordpress.com/
svoboda isn't mentioned here
their flag isn't even present

You could at least provide a more objective link, one that is not set up by the protestors themselves.

Of course, they are going to deny that their protests are anything but a reactionary mobilisation (with a heavy fascist presence) by one faction of the Ukrainian ruling class to tie their country to the interests of EU and US imperialism and capitalism. It kind of spoils their deceitful rhetoric that these protests are about corruption, democracy and other liberal dross.

Here is some actual evidence of Svoboda's participation in these protests:

US Senator John Mccain with Svoboda party leader Oleh Tyahnybok (http://static2.businessinsider.com/image/52af483beab8ea070b43dd72/john-mccain-went-to-ukraine-and-stood-on-stage-with-a-man-accused-of-being-an-anti-semitic-neo-nazi.jpg)

Svoboda members with their flags (http://archive.thedailystar.net/beta2/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Ukraine-protesters.jpg)

More Svoboda members at the protests (http://m.ruvr.ru/2013/12/01/15/ukr-prot-eu6_1.JPG)

There are many, many more such pictures all over the internet, if you care to look.

Also, it is not just Svoboda we should be worried about as these protests have attracted even more hardline and unhinged fascists of the neo-nazi variety:

LINK (http://theredphoenix.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/1453385_563265287074825_1492756770_n.jpg)

LINK (https://www.indymedia.nl/indyfiles/imagecache/cropstrip/raw/BbIoIdJIcAAFNOp.jpg)

LINK (http://revolution-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/nazi-history-ukraine.jpg)

LINK (http://i.imgur.com/ihsZio2.jpg)

LINK (http://nihilist.li/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/70th-anniversary-of-the-ukraine-upa-marked-in-kiev_1550669.jpg)

[Mather]

http://avtonomia.net/

The Autonomous Workers’ Union should all hang their heads in shame! So-called 'anarchists' urging workers to pick sides in this reactionary showdown over which faction of the ruling class is going to exploit them.

While the AWU makes a few platitudes about not taking sides, if they call on workers to support these protests then they are objectively taking sides, no matter how much they delude themselves into thinking otherwise. The crisis in the Ukraine will have only two outcomes; either the reactionary Yanukovych regime wins and remains in power or the reactionary opposition wins and the gang leading them takes power. At this moment in time there is no third option where the working class is going to take power, no matter how much I would personally like to see that happen.

Any anarchist or communist worth their salt should be concentrating on developing the organisation of the working class so that it fights for it's own class interest, independent of and in opposition to all the different and competing interests of the ruling class. Given that there is no chance of a workers revolution at present, it is vital that anarchists and communists begin the long and hard task of developing working class organisation and class consciousness rather than waste any time on this ruling class faction fight. Anything else is a betrayal of the working class.

I also take issue with what the AWU have to say here:


And they constitute the majority of the protesters. Many of them are indifferent to nationalism or negatively predisposed to it.Most of the flags and symbolism I have seen associated with these protests do indicate that nationalism has been a significant factor in mobilising people onto the streets. Besides the Svoboda and neo-nazi/white pride flags on display, the rest are associated with the Banderist Ukrainian Insurgent Army and of course the Ukrainian national flag itself. Besides the flags and symbols, there have also been reports of ethnic Russians being targeted in racist attacks by opposition thugs. How can anyone deny that nationalism has not been used as an ideological recruiting tool by the opposition when there is plenty of evidence to suggest otherwise.

[Mather]

from the same site;

Great, an appeal to some bourgeois politicians from the EU parliament, addressing them as comrades no less!

The AWU are symptomatic of a good chunk of what passes for 'anarchism' these days. Behind all their radical phrase mongering and rhetoric, when you actually look at their politics and the positions they stand by, they are nothing more than radical liberals and posers.

[Mather]

http://www.thecommunists.net/worldwide/europe/ukraine-neither-brussels-nor-moscow/
rcit statement
Ukraine: Neither Brussels nor Moscow! For an independent Workers’ Republic!
A reactionary opposition mobilizes against a reactionary government. For independent working class mobilizations against both factions of Ukraine’s ruling class!
Statement of the Revolutionary Communist International Tendency (RCIT), 18.12.2013, www.thecommunists.net (http://www.thecommunists.net)

1. For several weeks Ukraine has been marked by mobilizations both against and for the country’s accession to the European Union. At the same time, these demonstrations have also been mobilizations both against and for support of the government of President Viktor Yanukovych. Behind this conflict lies a struggle between different sections of Ukraine’s ruling class. Ukraine is a semi-colonial country which is split between the dominant imperialist powers to its East and West – the European Union and Russia. The RCIT maintains that class conscious workers and socialists must support neither the pro-EU nor the pro-Russian faction of the capitalist class. The present mobilizations don’t represent an independent organization of workers and youth to advance their interests, but rather the attempt of the right-wing and fascist faction of the bourgeoisie to bring down the equally reactionary Yanukovych government. It is urgent that class conscious workers and socialists advance an independent working class viewpoint and build militant trade unions as well as a Workers’ Party based on a revolutionary program.
2. The recent protest demonstrations began in late November after Ukraine’s government of President Viktor Yanukovych refused to sign an Association Agreement with the European Union. These demonstrations were instigated by an alliance consisting primarily of three parties: two right wing capitalist parties (the Fatherland Party of Arseniy Yatsenyuk and the imprisoned Yulia Tymoshenko as well as the Ukrainian Democratic Alliance for Reform [UDAR] led by the professional boxer Vitali Klitschko). In addition, the fascist Svoboda (Freedom) party under the leadership of Oleg Tyagnibok joined this alliance. This opposition coalition has the full support of EU and US imperialism who openly demonstrate this by sending leading representatives like US senators John McCain and Chris Murphy as well as Elmar Brok (chairman of the European Parliament Foreign Policy Committee) to address the protest rallies. This foreign intrusion is the political expression of Western imperialism’s advance in the Ukraine.
3. Russian imperialism is also trying to draw the Ukraine into its sphere of influence. Ukraine is highly dependent on Russia which is by far Kiev’s largest trading partner (accounting for about 22-23% of Ukraine’s imports and exports). Russian monopoly capital is one of the three big foreign investors in Ukraine (alongside Germany and Austria). Russian corporations like Gazprom, Lukoil, TNK BP, RUSAL, and the Alfa Group dominate the oil refining, metallurgy, and aluminum sectors, and also play a leading role in other key industries like gas and telecommunications. Chinese corporations are also increasingly active in making foreign investments in Ukraine’s fertile agricultural sector in addition to others.
4. The Putin regime is pressuring Yanukovych to join the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia as well as the Eurasian Economic Community as a full member. The Eurasian Economic Community is an instrument dominated by Russian imperialism and currently includes the full member states Belarus, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan (suspended), as well as Armenia, Moldova, Ukraine as observers. Both EU imperialism and Russian imperialism hope to drag the Ukraine into their respective orbits in order to increase their exploitation of the country and to increase, each its own, geopolitical influence.
5. The current conflict reflects divisions inside the Ukraine capitalist class which is dominated by a handful of oligarchs. The “Donets Clan”, led by the country’s richest billionaire Rinat Achmetov, represents the coal and mining capitalists in the Ukraine’s east, which traditionally has close relations with Russia. President Yanukovych is the representative of the “Donets Clan”. Another clan led by the oligarch Dmitry Firtash is based on corporations in the chemical and gas industry and controls the largest TV group “Inter.” This group also has close connections with the camp of President Yanukovych and his Party of Regions, but gives tactical support for Klitschko’s UDAR as well.
6. These different factions of Ukraine’s ruling class are divided on how they can best raise their profits. They are torn and thus waver between the two imperialist Great Powers on their borders – the EU and Russia. The RCIT sees the campaign of the European Union to have Ukraine’s government sign the Association Agreement as part of its drive to re-colonize the Ukraine. The EU is an imperialist bloc dominated by two great powers, Germany and France. Russia’s pressure to drag the Ukraine into its Customs Union and its Eurasian Economic Community reflects basically the same desire. Moscow also wants to re-colonize the Ukraine.
7. The Ukraine itself is a capitalist semi-colony which is oppressed and exploited by both Western and Eastern imperialist powers. In the Ukraine – like in the rest of the former USSR – the aborted political revolution against the tyrannical Stalinist bureaucracy in 1989-91 led to the victory of the capitalist counter-revolution and the destruction of the planned economy and its social achievements. As a result, mass impoverishment and unemployment spread. According to the IMF, real wages in 1998 had fallen by more than 75% in relation to their 1991 level. Life expectancy declined by four years during this period. The destruction of the productive forces caused by the restoration of capitalism has been so devastating that Ukraine’s output measured by its Gross Domestic Product today is still 35% below its level of 1989! The Great Recession of the capitalist world economy in 2008/09 – which launched an historic world-wide revolutionary period in the wake of the continuing decline of capitalism – had a massive impact on Ukraine’s manufacturing. Industrial production first dropped by 5.2% (2008) and subsequently collapsed a further, staggering 21.9% (2009). Today, official unemployment figures stand at 8.5%.
8. In addition to the increasing domination of Ukraine’s industry by foreign corporations, the country’s banking sector is also characterized by a strong presence of imperialist capital. The share of foreign capital in the Ukraine’s banks amounts to 41.8% (2012), of which the three biggest foreign investors are Austrian, French, and Russian banks. Ukraine is also increasingly indebted to imperialist financial capital. In recent years, the country’s gross foreign debt has grown massively and, at the end of the first half of 2013, totaled $134.4 billion, the equivalent of 75.7% of its Gross Domestic Product. All this further emphasizes that Ukraine is an industrialized but impoverished capitalist semi-colony dominated by Western and Eastern imperialist powers.
9. For these reasons, the RCIT opposes Ukraine’s joining either the European Union or Russia’s empire. We are aware that such a refusal by Ukraine to join both of the imperialist camps can only be a first step on the road to achieving true national independence. Such authentic independence is only possible if the working class in the Ukraine abolishes capitalism and builds an independent Workers’ Republic as part of a socialist federation of Europe and Asia. However, as a first step, we support those workers organizations in the Ukraine which oppose integration into both the EU and Russia’s empire.
10. As we have explained above, the recent mobilizations of demonstrators in favor of signing the Association Agreement with the European Union has absolutely no progressive character whatsoever. Of course, there are a number of people among the protestors who authentically hate the government and the misery in which they are forced to live. In spite of the non-progressive character of the demonstrations, we equally oppose the brutal police tactics against the protestors. But both the reactionary agenda of the protests (attempting to lead the Ukraine into the imperialist EU) and their thoroughly reactionary leadership (the Fatherland Party, UDAR, and the Svoboda-Nazis) make it clear that this is not an authentic popular democratic movement which could or should be supported by communists. Neither would it be legitimate for us communists to give any support to the pro-government mobilizations, or to the counter-demand to lead the Ukraine into the de facto Russian empire (Customs Union and Eurasian Economic Community). We do not exclude, in advance, the possibility that a massive crackdown of the movement by the Yanukovych regime might change the character of the demonstrations and transforms them into legitimate democratic resistance. But this is not presently the case.
11. Bolshevik-Communists condemn the so-called “Communist Party of Ukraine” (KPU). This party supports capitalism and was part of the part of first Azarov Government in 2010-2012 (together with the bourgeois Bloc Lytvyn and the Party of Regions). Today the leadership around Petro Symonenko supports the government and demands Ukraine’s entry into the Russia-dominated Customs Union. So while UDAR and the Fatherland Party are instruments of EU imperialism, the KPU is a tool of Russian imperialism.
12. The RCIT maintains that the working class must adopt an independent position in this conflict, and refuse to side with either camp of the greedy oligarchs and their parties, whether those in the government or in the opposition. Workers’ must equally refuse to side with the EU or Russian imperialism and reject Ukraine’s joining one of the two sides in what amounts to a conflict between two different imperialist camps. The only way forward is for workers to bring together their defense of their living conditions, their democratic rights, and the country’s independence by struggling for a workers’ government and a socialist revolution in Ukraine and throughout Eastern Europe. This can be only be achieved by an organized struggle of the working class, led by a revolutionary party in the tradition of Lenin and Trotsky. Under the present circumstances, where the working class lacks any meaningful mass organizations, it is essential to build strong and militant trade union and mass organizations of working men, women, and youth. Most important, is the creation of an independent workers’ party based on a revolutionary program.
13. From the very start, creating such a revolutionary workers party must be done in conjunction with the efforts to establish a new World Party of Socialist Revolution. In our opinion, such a new party will be the Fifth Workers’ International. The RCIT calls revolutionaries in the Ukraine to unite in a Bolshevik organization based on an internationalist and communist program. We look forward to discussing these issues and collaborating with revolutionaries in the Ukraine, in order to advance the formation of such a revolutionary organization.

As an anarchist-communist myself, it says a lot when a Trotskyist organisation takes a far more principled and class based position on events in the Ukraine than the likes of the AWU.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Ukraine's PM Azarov and government resign

Ukraine's President Viktor Yanukovych has accepted the resignation of the prime minister and his cabinet amid continuing anti-government protests.
Mykola Azarov had offered to step down as prime minister to create "social and political compromise".
The move came after the Ukrainian parliament voted overwhelmingly to annul a controversial anti-protest law.
The protests have spread in recent days across Ukraine, even to President Yanukovych's stronghold in the east.
Official buildings in several cities have been occupied.
Tuesday saw the interior ministry report that three protesters had stabbed and wounded three policemen in the southern city of Kherson, one of whom later died.
In total, at least five people have been killed in violence linked to the protests.
Parliament - holding an emergency debate on the crisis - voted by 361 to 2 to repeal the protest legislation, which among other measures banned the wearing of helmets by protesters and the blockading of public buildings.
The law had helped fuel the demonstrations which began in Independence Square in the capital, Kiev, after Mr Yanukovych pulled out of a planned trade deal with the EU last November in favour of a $15bn (£9bn) bailout from Russia.
MPs applauded as the result was announced. There was a similar response in Kiev's Independence Square, which remains the focal point of the demonstrations.

(BBC News - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25932352)

[fugazi]

You could at least provide a more objective link, one that is not set up by the protestors themselves.



the point was to show that they themselves didn't seem to want to be associated with Svoboda. I'm sure their presence there is more prevalent than that page lets on. Still there is an obvious attempt at distancing.

[Geiseric]

Haha what an asshole! The fucking nerve on this guy.

[riseupnow]

The Communist party was asked what their solution was, they said "we don't have one". So here we have a bunch of Anarchists, a bunch of fascists and neo Nazis, [not lumping the two together ideologically] throwing stones, trashing buildings, throw fire bombs and burning tires. Meanwhile there is an opportunity that comes around once in a lifetime taking place that is being wasted.

Why? because there isn't a revolutionary party on the scene trying to take control, comprised of theory and propaganda, it's an opportunity lost.

The same here in the U.S, that is why the occupy movement was allow to be taken over by the sickening liberals.

[Sasha]

say what you want about the protest but from a purely "military" strategic point of view its an interesting case study esp compared to the square occupations of tahrir and taksim and the various occupy camps etc etc that didnt have this level of barricading: http://zyalt.livejournal.com/986689.html
on one hand you lock essentially imprison yourself on the other hand you guarantee that conflict can only be resolved through either triumph, successful negotiations or military massacre.
one can wonder whether such militarization of struggle is always opportune but at least you cant be easily swept away by a traditional police operation.
it reminds me of the vondelstraat occupation in amsterdam in 1980:
tCXfXJidFiE

[Ele'ill]

More footage has emerged of the molotov cocktail incident, showing the police in pursuit of the car that pulled up at the mayors office, throwing molotov cocktails as they were being chased.

Footage is from the Police dash cam, and also shows the police arrest from ground level via cameras at ground level.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6a9_1391030769

[The Intransigent Faction]

This made me want to punch a hole in the wall:

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/1/30/debate_is_ukraines_opposition_a_democratic

"Moderates are the first victims of a revolution", lol.
The stuff about Yanukovych and the Oligarchs, though, shows just how firmly bourgeois and no better than the EU the pro-Russian side in this is, in case anyone had any doubts for some reason.

[Blake's Baby]

No-one seems to have posted this yet:

http://eretik-samizdat.blogspot.ca/2014/01/the-declaration-of-kras-iwa-about-power.html

Is it possible do we think to change the title of this thread? This isn't about the EU.

EDIT: text of the declaration linked above, with original links in place:

The Declaration of KRAS-IWA about the power struggle in Ukraine



http://www.aitrus.info/sites/default/files/19170674765277066fce487c6a6c1257.jpg (http://www.aitrus.info/sites/default/files/19170674765277066fce487c6a6c1257.jpg)
http://www.aitrus.info/node/3540


In Ukraine, the spreading struggle for power between rival factions of the bourgeois oligarchy, unfortunately, involved significant sections of the population. Confrontation acquired brutal character and is accompanied by loss of human life. Anarcho -syndicalists can not support any of the warring sides in the conflict. They are equally hostile to Yanukovych regime with its neo-liberal economic policies and repressive laws that criminalize any protest (including workers picketing of enterprises and independent Internet activity) - and to the "opposition", in which the tone is set by Liberal, Nationalists and by openly Nazi group.


Both camps are equally conservative and nationalist, and any significant difference between them is not visible: neither in social-economic area, nor in domestic or foreign policy. Neither submission to the European Union, nor the submission of the Russian oligarchy does not solve the problems of the working people of Ukraine. Moreover, the victory of one or another group of the bourgeoisie, aiming to seize power or tending to hold it, may turn to workers in the country to social disaster.


We consider just the resistance of workers against Yanukovych`s neoliberal policies and dictatorial government. But we consider unacceptable any participation in joint mobilizations alongside the bourgeois nationalist and openly fascist "opposition".
We encourage libertarian groups and activists of Ukraine to act independently, to put forward their own social-economic slogans and demands and to defend them through the working resistance and social-revolutionary struggle.


KRAS, the Section of International Workers Association in the Russian Region (http://www.aitrus.info/)

[Sasha]

Euromaidan: “We Support Your Struggle But Not Your Fascists” 2nd Interview with a Ukrainian Anarchist

This interview with a comrade from the Autonomous Workers’ Union in Kiev was done on January 28, 2014. It sheds some light on the events around the EuroMaidan: the array of reasons behind the protests, their focus on the hated president, the differences to the “orange revolution”, the role of the right, the weakness of social struggles and possible scenarios.

Q: Looking at the pictures from Kiev (for instance, here) it seems that all kinds of people are at the barricades. In your opinion, what brings them together? What do the people at the barricades and all the supporters discuss? Merely the practical issues of the fight against the cops? Or are there assemblies, or other forms of “organized” debates, at the barricades or elsewhere?

A: The main motive for the protests right now is extreme unpopularity of the president. Of course, the actual reasons are economic crisis, social inequality, corruption, decay of social services, poverty, unemployment – the usual set of grievances which make people go into the streets these days. This is not a leftist dogma; people do speak about all these issues. But nevertheless the force which made them stop grumbling at their kitchens and protest loudly is their feelings towards president Yanukovich. The demand of president’s resignation is the ultimate one; unfortunately, this is the most radical thing people can actually think about.

The second thing is the sheer hatred towards the police forces. But then again, protesters just don’t think there’s anything wrong with the fact that one of the leaders of the protests – Yuriy Lutsenko – himself used to be Minister of the Interior; during that time Berkut and other special police forces existed as usual, and Lutsenko himself had announced that he would disperse protesting crowds with tear gas. So, here, too, protest against police as such (it has extremely bad reputation among all social classes here) is channeled into relatively harmless direction.

The president, his government and police are main subjects of discussions, I guess. Protesters’ main task, as they see it, is to get rid of the Party of Regions, that’s all. A small fraction talks about shifting the balance of power in the constitution from president to parliament. But of course, the main topics are indeed the practical matters – tear gas, food, shields, Molotov cocktails, tactics of street battles, and endless rumors – about the imminent threat of introducing the state of emergency, about snipers and riot police (whether they are Russians or not, whether they intend to fight any longer etc.).

About the assemblies – no, I don’t know anything of the sort. The situation is too dynamic and unstable to do any such things, I guess; so, I don’t see any forms of direct democracy evolving at the barricades right now.

Q: It seems that there are a lot of attacks on or occupations of government buildings, but the “normal” life in the city goes on. Is that so? Are people working during the day and going to the barricades at night in Kiev? What other forms of protest play a role? I heard about university faculties being occupied? Is anything going on at work-places against the late or non-payment of wages, for instance?

A: Yes, that’s true. Only the central parts of Kiev are affected by the protests while in other areas business goes as usual, nothing is interrupted. There were several attempts to declare national political strike but they failed miserably: the opposition doesn’t have any instruments for this, no political organization has a nationwide network of workplace cells, and the people themselves are also simply not used to such thing as strike. The only force that could theoretically do this – the old bureaucratic Federation of Trade Unions of Ukraine – is neutral. The student union Direct Action is trying to organize students’ strike – so far they’ve partly managed to do this only in one university, Kyiv-Mohyla Academy. So, yes, most people work or study, spending their free time at the barricades.

There’s an initiative group called Automaidan – car owners who use their vehicles for blocking the traffic, especially in the vicinity of important government sites or near the residences of people in power. One more form of protest employed here is the customers’ boycott of goods manufactured by capitalists who belong to the Party of Regions. It turned out to be relatively successful, at least according to some reports.

There’s been only one university occupation so far, and I’m not sure you can call it that, actually. Our comrades from Direct Action do try to occupy the whole campus and block all activities there but as far as I understand it is not physically occupied yet.

Protests at workplaces concerning wages etc. hasn’t been connected to the political protests so far. For example, workers of Kyivpastrans – the communal enterprise which controls urban transit – held their protests in December, some leftist organizations helped them, but they didn’t go so far as to declare an Italian strike and they didn’t join Maidan. Actually, the local government did their best to pay them all the arrears in the end of December to calm them down.

Q: One of the last huge mobilization in the Ukraine was the “orange revolution”. In comparison, what is different today? Does anyone refer to that “history”?How are the protesters talk about “democracy”? And what hopes are connected with a EU-membership?

A: First of all, the “orange revolution” was a highly personalized protest. People concentrated on a specific goal – to install their leader, Viktor Yuschenko, in the president’s seat. Yuschenko’s political structures controlled the crowd pretty tightly and organized everything very smoothly. Now the three leaders of the parliamentary opposition are not trusted by a majority of protesters. They represent Maidan at the negotiations with the President, but many people are not sure they have a mandate for that. For example, last Thursday they were booed by the crowd, and Maidan didn’t accept their conditions which had been negotiated with Yanukovych. Despite all their anger, the politicians had to obey the crowd; generally, people are much more radical than their “representatives”. The whole mobilization in November came as a surprise for them, and since then they couldn’t grasp the events and take a lead. This vacuum was momentarily filled by the far-right groups.

Another difference is that in 2004 the scope of issues discussed was much wider. The whole “revolution” was dedicated to presidential elections, but still, you could legitimately propose left agenda there, discuss social and economic issues. In that respect, that protest was much more heterodox than the current one; now you can only talk about the matters of bourgeois politics. Any attempt to put forward other issues puts you at risk of being labeled as a “provocateur”.

I wouldn’t say that people imagine many parallels between the events of 2004 and the current protests. First of all, during the last ten years there appeared a new generation of young people who had been schoolkids back then. And now they are an important part of the mobilization. Second of all, Viktor Yuschenko turned out to be a major disappointment for all participants of the “orange revolution”.

Protesters naturally say that they want a truly (bourgeois) democratic state, with the rule of law etc. They imagine that the only thing which separates them from this ideal is Viktor Yanukovych, And they are convinced that the EU membership is synonymous with democracy, also prosperity and all other good things. EU serves as a myth concentrating all their hopes; while Russia is a land of Mordor in this mythological view of the world.

Q: Right-wing parties and fascist groups play a role in the protests. How important are they actually? Do they get much support? How do other protesters relate to them?

A: Far right party Svoboda is the most organized of the three large political forces trying to control the protest. They are the only party which has real active cells in various regions, actual activist base. So, as the most organized and the most ideological of the three, they are gaining the most. Apart from Svoboda, there is an umbrella coalition of neo-nazi militant groups. It is called Right Sector. They were formed in the beginning of the protests, and by now they’ve succeeded to gain enormous prominence and conquer sympathies from apolitical and liberal people. They are mostly famous by their demonstrative militancy and aggression, and the public doesn’t see anything wrong with these cute young patriots. Lately, the same pattern repeats in other regions, where neo-nazi football hooligans turned out to be the main assault force fighting the police and pro-government thugs.

The fascist hegemony was indisputable until January 19th, when the protests were joined by lots of other people –random apolitical citizens, liberals and even the left. That happened because the agenda of the protests shifted to repealing the “dictatorship laws” passed on January 16. Since then they had to step back a bit but nevertheless it’s obvious that in the long run these protests will enormously benefit the far right, whoever wins. In the case of the victory of the opposition, they will surely get themselves the police forces, special services etc. If Yanukovych wins, this means that half of the country will become firm supporters of the far-right as supposedly the only patriotic radical force able to confront the dictator.

Meanwhile, most left activists also joined the protests after January 19 because those laws will severely damage them as well. They found their niche in infrastructural activities, such as vigils in emergency hospitals: they stay there in order to prevent police and thugs kidnap the wounded. Other area of left activity is the above mentioned attempt at igniting the political strike.

Q: From outside the protest seems to have a lot in common with the one in Istanbul last year (well, surely not the temperatures…). Do the protesters in Kiev and elsewhere in the Ukraine see a connection to the uprisings around the globe in the past few years?

A: There may be some parallels drawn indeed, but from the subjective point of view of Ukrainian protesters those other protests don’t exist. They see these events as a purely national struggle, trying to embed them into Ukrainian history, not into the global wave of protests.

Q: Last not least, you have been following the movement from its beginning, and I have read some of your statements. What is your hope for the protest, what positive outcome can you imagine? What is the worst outcome you can imagine? What kind of support do you expect from outside the Ukraine?

A: Like I said, there are two possible outcomes. One is the victory of Yanukovych, which will bring about a harsh authoritarian regime in the mould of Latin American dictatorships of 1970s. Still, it will be problematic to govern the country for Yanukovych because he will still be supported by half of population at best; dictatorships cannot survive in such conditions. One of the probable scenarios then can be emerging of a militant underground guerilla movement not unlike the IRA in Northern Ireland of 1980s and 1990s.

The other outcome will be eventual victory of the parliamentary opposition. This will result in a weak bourgeois democratic republic, politically unstable but retaining the basic freedoms – like Ukraine in 2005-2009. Only now the fascists will be much stronger both in the power lobbies and in the streets.

Now, there is also third scenario – maybe that would the worst one – it’s the full-fledged civil war between Western and Central Ukraine, including Kiev, on the one side, and South and East, on the other. Naturally this would be catastrophic because people will fight for nationalist chimeras on both sides. On the other hand, this still looks unlikely to me because Ukraine is such a large industrial country. The EU, Russia and other global powers are unlikely to allow a chaotic war zone in a country which has major gas and oil transit routes, 15 atomic reactors etc.

I guess in such conditions the best form of support from abroad would be efforts to make the Ukrainian government back off, but without showing solidarity with the far-right. My guess is that such messages – “we support your struggle but not your fascists” – would be optimal form of pressure from abroad

Source: http://revolution-news.com/euromaidan-we-support-your-struggle-but-not-your-fascists-2nd-interview-with-a-ukrainian-anarchist/

[Blake's Baby]

I like 'we support your struggle but not your fascists'.

[fractal-vortex]

I don't know how to insert a photo on the site, so I added URL's of pictures I have taken today on "Maidan"

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=583954891673744&set=pcb.583955608340339&type=1&theater

[Marshal of the People]

Why hasn't the government sent in the Army to utterly annihilate the fascists and their allies? That is what I would have done many weeks ago.

[Sinister Intents]

Why hasn't the government sent in the Army to utterly annihilate the fascists and their allies? That is what I would have done many weeks ago.

Governments often times protect the fascists and reactionaries because they share interests in common with them, while they shit on and disperse the left and revolutionary left for being against there interests. Send the army in? Would you want to be leader of a state or government? Why do you say authoritarian things at times? The army is a tool used by the state, soldiers are tools of class rule and imperialism. If anything the military will be used against the left.

[Marshal of the People]

Governments often times protect the fascists and reactionaries because they share interests in common with them, while they shit on and disperse the left and revolutionary left for being against there interests. Send the army in? Would you want to be leader of a state or government? Why do you say authoritarian things at times? The army is a tool used by the state, soldiers are tools of class rule and imperialism. If anything the military will be used against the left.But the fascist have been lynching communists, anarchists and socialists and have taken control of a lot of Western Ukraine. The fascists also spray paint white-power and nazi symbols on buildings after they have captured them. The fascists are threatening not only the government of Ukraine but heaps of people living there. If the fascists gain power there will be dead Jews, communists, black people and other people dead as well. Yes the military is usually used against the left but it can also be used against everyone else depending on the circumstances, the fascist obviously want to overthrow the government and neither the Ukrainian government or all non-fascist want that. We must stop the fascist from gaining power at all costs. A fascist Ukraine would not be a nice place for non-fascists.

[fugazi]

libertarian communist says send in the army in support of the riot squads

the whole world is upside down

[Leftsolidarity]

I don't know how to insert a photo on the site, so I added URL's of pictures I have taken today on "Maidan"

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=583954891673744&set=pcb.583955608340339&type=1&theater

The link doesn't work. If it's your personal page it's probably a good idea you don't link to it on here. If you save the files on your computer, there's a box next to the "quote" box when you're typing that will let you insert photos.

[Taters]

libertarian communist says send in the army in support of the riot squads

the whole world is upside down

No, he's just a troll. The fascists are not really in a position to 'take over', anyway.

[DOOM]

I support every struggle against the state, but this is rather a bourgeoise uprising, instituted by the established parties, than a real working men uprising. I understand that the situation in Ukraine is shit and that the protestors are indeed very angry at the government. But it bugs me that they are kind of being used by these right wing parties like UDAR or SVOBODA.
But I won't marginalize them as fascists or something, since this isn't true.
I fully support their struggle, but I oppose the parties that are instrumentalizing this struggle.

However, does anyone know anything about leftist activities at the protests? I saw some anarchist emblems but that's it. Could someone provide me some info?

[Ele'ill]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=da2_1391192498

video of folks making a potato cannon that they plan to pack with poop and shoot at cops

[AnaRchic]

No revolutionary situation is going to start off on the terms we would like it to. At least, its not likely. Uprisings are very spontaneous and unpredictable. A revolutionary movement could start off for one reason, and as it develops, could come to a whole different focus.

From what i've seen over these past few years, most of the revolutions we've seen have started from simple and very non-radical demands. In the course of struggle they evolve into wider critiques of instituted power. Given all of this, we need to support uprisings and insurrections where ever they occur, whatever the rhetoric present.

Our goal should be to inspire a critique of state and ruling class power in the movement, and to encourage tactics that build solidarity, coordinate action, and attack power. We need to support our comrades in Ukraine and encourage their active and relentless involvement in the struggle. We must not dismiss an uprising just because the most prominent voices at the moment aren't ours.

[PhoenixAsh]

Whatever the politics the success of the demonstrations can not be denied...and has rarely been emulated in recent years within Europe. And as such it would be worth it to study the organisation and tactics behind them.

Not only to emulate but also because it should serve as a huge fucking warning to the revolutionary left that rightwing/fascists are noticeably on the rise in (extended) Europe and obviously seem to have far more success than the revolutionary left in garnering support and offering an "alternative" to the crisis.

As for the situation itself:

This is a conflict between factions and not classes. And as such no side deserves any support. It is a huge complex cluster fuck rife with imperialist support and distortions from all sides. It stands to reason that the current government can not be supported by the revolutionary left....and neither can the vast majority of the protesters.

This does not mean we shouldn't get involved...but given the state of the revolutionary left in the Ukraine....this might be extremely low key out of strategic necessity. So the RL needs to voice opposition to both sides. Offer viable alternatives and organize the working class. Which is much easier said than done. IMO the first and foremost priority should be to combat fascist elements.

Eventually whatever the outcome...the losing side of this event will invariably be the working class itself.

[PhoenixAsh]

No revolutionary situation is going to start off on the terms we would like it to. At least, its not likely. Uprisings are very spontaneous and unpredictable. A revolutionary movement could start off for one reason, and as it develops, could come to a whole different focus.

From what i've seen over these past few years, most of the revolutions we've seen have started from simple and very non-radical demands. In the course of struggle they evolve into wider critiques of instituted power. Given all of this, we need to support uprisings and insurrections where ever they occur, whatever the rhetoric present.

Our goal should be to inspire a critique of state and ruling class power in the movement, and to encourage tactics that build solidarity, coordinate action, and attack power. We need to support our comrades in Ukraine and encourage their active and relentless involvement in the struggle. We must not dismiss an uprising just because the most prominent voices at the moment aren't ours.

I understand your point but you do have to realize that not only aren't the prominent voices of this protest not ours...they are the voices of our biggest enemy. Which makes it a very complex situation.

That said...there is a huge momentum in the Ukraine which indeed offers an opportunity.

The main problem however is the state of the revolutionary left in the Ukraine. Which is imo currently a shamble. The official communist party has sold out to bourgeoisie and reactionary politics and has become part of the problem rather than the solution....on one side...and the alternatives on the other side are fragmented.

I question if the position is strong enough to manage to turn the course of the current protests all together...in the face of such a very strong organisation of the extreme right. Which is imo the first priority.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

I support every struggle against the state[...]

But the events in the Ukraine are not a "struggle against the state" as such. No one, not even the anarchists that have joined the Banderists, thinks that this will result in the overthrow of the bourgeois state. Or did you mean to say that you support every struggle of a political group against the current state administration. Would you have supported NSDAP uprisings against Austria, then, or the GIA struggle against the Algerian state?


But it bugs me that they are kind of being used by these right wing parties like UDAR or SVOBODA.
But I won't marginalize them as fascists or something, since this isn't true.

They are literally carrying pictures of the Ukrainian fuehrer. What more do you want?

[DOOM]

But the events in the Ukraine are not a "struggle against the state" as such. No one, not even the anarchists that have joined the Banderists, thinks that this will result in the overthrow of the bourgeois state. Or did you mean to say that you support every struggle of a political group against the current state administration. Would you have supported NSDAP uprisings against Austria, then, or the GIA struggle against the Algerian state?



They are literally carrying pictures of the Ukrainian fuehrer. What more do you want?

You can't marginalize the whole movement because of those nationalist shitheads.
In fact, most of them are pretty normal centrists.

[DOOM]

No revolutionary situation is going to start off on the terms we would like it to. At least, its not likely. Uprisings are very spontaneous and unpredictable. A revolutionary movement could start off for one reason, and as it develops, could come to a whole different focus.

From what i've seen over these past few years, most of the revolutions we've seen have started from simple and very non-radical demands. In the course of struggle they evolve into wider critiques of instituted power. Given all of this, we need to support uprisings and insurrections where ever they occur, whatever the rhetoric present.

Our goal should be to inspire a critique of state and ruling class power in the movement, and to encourage tactics that build solidarity, coordinate action, and attack power. We need to support our comrades in Ukraine and encourage their active and relentless involvement in the struggle. We must not dismiss an uprising just because the most prominent voices at the moment aren't ours.
Word!

[Criminalize Heterosexuality]

You can't marginalize the whole movement because of those nationalist shitheads.
In fact, most of them are pretty normal centrists.

You didn't answer the question.

As for the "nationalist shitheads" (again, they aren't just nationalists, they're outright Nazis), even the anarchists who have joined the protests admit that they have "won the sympathies" of the liberals and apolitical persons joining the protest. And in fact, we can marginalize entire "movements", events etc. because of fascist presence - that is what the left used to do, anyway.

[Queen Mab]

You can't marginalize the whole movement because of those nationalist shitheads.
In fact, most of them are pretty normal centrists.

"Normal centrists" aren't any better than Nazis. Both are anti-working class.

[cyu]

Whatever the politics the success of the demonstrations can not be denied...and has rarely been emulated in recent years within Europe. And as such it would be worth it to study the organisation and tactics behind them.

Not only to emulate but also because it should serve as a huge fucking warning to the revolutionary left that rightwing/fascists are noticeably on the rise in (extended) Europe and obviously seem to have far more success than the revolutionary left in garnering support and offering an "alternative" to the crisis.


Follow the money. I would be disappointed, but not surprised if fascist elements got at least some of their funding for equipment, propaganda, and recruitment from agencies like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Agency_for_International_Development - I also wouldn't count out "independently" wealthy billionaires and their ilk. Fascist thought also needs media support to transmit through society - we all know who owns the media, don't we?

In a way, fascists have an unfair advantage - leftists and the oppressed will never get the same support from the ruling class - that's why the oppressed are the oppressed after all. For those among the ruling class that feel like they must hang on to power, funding anything that will hold back leftists becomes their top priority, because they know a leftist revolution will not leave them in power.

[Blake's Baby]

In a faction fight between different sections of the bourgeoisie, where should workers stand?

I'd argue that we have to oppose both the current government and the fascists. Siding with either of them means siding with our enemies.

[Ele'ill]

In a faction fight between different sections of the bourgeoisie, where should workers stand?

I'd argue that we have to oppose both the current government and the fascists. Siding with either of them means siding with our enemies.


It was previously mentioned that the situation can be used as a temporary model for what will be perhaps future situations elsewhere. It was also pointed out (by me) that there was a call for participation albeit not specifically hand in hand with undesirable tendencies. So what is actually being done, if anything, and what can be done in similar situations? What are some options that aren't broad brush 'organize the masses' kind of nothing replies.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

I was listening to the BBC the other night at work, and they reported "a small amount of right-wing activists."

Huh, that's a really subtle and nice way of saying fascists playing an active role in the protests.

[Rusty Shackleford]

I was listening to the BBC the other night at work, and they reported "a small amount of right-wing activists."

Huh, that's a really subtle and nice way of saying fascists playing an active role in the protests.

Not to mention 15,000 Banderists marching through Kiev with torches and lighting shops on fire on Jan 1.


The AWU opinion was the only Anarcho-syndicalist positon of 4 that I have read that sucked calling for people to participate directly in these protests.

There was an interview with an AWU member on an american station from Asheville that was actually quite good though.

I wouldn't count on the "C"PU taking a proper communist position though.

It is worrisome that they and other communist and anarchist organizations will and are being attacked by the protests.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Apologies, information was dated.

[La Guaneña]

I wouldn't count on the "C"PU taking a proper communist position though.


http://lamanchaobrera.es/los-comunistas-ucranianos-crean-milicias-populares-para-luchar-contra-el-fascismo/

The Ucranian Communists have created popular militias to fight against fascism


The local commities of the CPU have created, in the eastern part of the country, popular militias to fight against the neonazis supported by the EU, known as Euromaidan.

[cyu]

http://lamanchaobrera.es/los-comunistas-ucranianos-crean-milicias-populares-para-luchar-contra-el-fascismo/

From web translator:
The initiative has come from the citizens themselves and the public, alarmed by the fascist threat.

Communists have formed a militia with about 200 people, who are preparing to respond to the neglect and permissiveness of the police

Good to see, even if funding comes from less-than-savory sources - ideally such militia would be joined by enough of the working class to gather enough momentum to break free from any pro-capitalists attempting to restrain them from behind-the-scenes, and bring about real benefits for broad-based Ukraine. Failing that, fighting back fascism would be acceptable enough - even if the old status quo would be meh, at least it wouldn't be a descent into fascism (well, not that capitalism isn't fascist in its own way - just more sly about it :glare: )

[Ele'ill]

From web translator:
The initiative has come from the citizens themselves and the public, alarmed by the fascist threat.

Communists have formed a militia with about 200 people, who are preparing to respond to the neglect and permissiveness of the police

Good to see, even if funding comes from less-than-savory sources - ideally such militia would be joined by enough of the working class to gather enough momentum to break free from any pro-capitalists attempting to restrain them from behind-the-scenes, and bring about real benefits for broad-based Ukraine. Failing that, fighting back fascism would be acceptable enough - even if the old status quo would be meh, at least it wouldn't be a descent into fascism (well, not that capitalism isn't fascist in its own way - just more sly about it :glare: )

So 200 some folks are part of a militia but with what direction? What is broad-based Ukraine? What does that actually look like? From what it looks like most of the demonstrations and attacks against the police and whatever else are being carried out by a lot of 'conservative' leaning people.

[La Guaneña]

So 200 some folks are part of a militia but with what direction? What is broad-based Ukraine? What does that actually look like? From what it looks like most of the demonstrations and attacks against the police and whatever else are being carried out by a lot of 'conservative' leaning people.

The 200 folks are a reference to one city. From what the text gives us: these are anti-fascist militias under the direction of the CPU and some of it's mass fronts, such as the communist youth (kommsomol). They are not being formed to attack the police, they are being formed to respond to these fascists due to the police being negligent in this sense.

There isn't much more info, but I call that being smart... You don't tell your enemy how much troops you have and where they are at.

[Sasha]

So a bourgeois political party formed a para-military group to protect the bourgeois state and to police the proletariat? And this is ANTI-fascist how? I would call it inner-fascist conflict at best.

[Rusty Shackleford]

CPU isn't fascist.


I'm pretty surprised they would take such an action, I'm glad they are implying the fascists and the state go hand in hand as well.

[Per Levy]

CPU isn't fascist.

indeed they arnt, they are a nationalistic, social conservative, bourgois party with lots of homophobia and racism thrown in the mix. that makes them an enemy of the working class, an enemy that needs to be eradicated.


I'm pretty surprised they would take such an action, I'm glad they are implying the fascists and the state go hand in hand as well.

wich might would be more belivable if the cpu wasnt defending the state, the police and the current goverment so very much.

[fractal-vortex]

I am left, and I am in Ukraine. Just came back from Maidan now (the main square of demos). The slogans of the politicians are for "restarting" or "reloading" the institutes of power. In plain language that means they want to re-divide the property again, as the clan which is behind the current opposition is not satisfied with the result of privatizations since 1991. That's why we hear nationalist slogans - they are opposed to people like Rinat Akhmetov, the richest man in Ukraine, not ethnic Ukrainian but from a minority Turkish population.

And what should I do? I don't see anybody around here who is left. And the left that we had are sitting silently in their holes:confused:

[La Guaneña]

wich might would be more belivable if the cpu wasnt defending the state, the police and the current goverment so very much.

Well, in this sort of die or kill situation with fascists, it's kind of smart to side with the people who want to kill the same people as you at the moment...

[Blake's Baby]

No it isn't. Both are enemies of the working class. You may as well claim it makes sense to side with the fascists on the grounds that the government is the enemy of the working class. Whichever side you support, you're supporting the enemies of the working class. Why is supporting either a good idea?

[KurtFF8]

No it isn't. Both are enemies of the working class. You may as well claim it makes sense to side with the fascists on the grounds that the government is the enemy of the working class. Whichever side you support, you're supporting the enemies of the working class. Why is supporting either a good idea?

I don't necessarily agree that the CPU should be siding with the government there, but to claim that all "enemies of the working class" are "just the same" is a bit much.

The obvious example that is bound to come up is the popular front era during WWII where bourgeois countries allied with Communist parties to combat fascism. This "alliance" was of course quickly dissolved after the war, but Communists (and bourgeoisie leaders) both realized that fascism was a threat to both.

That doesn't mean that the bourgeoisie was not opposed to the working class in that period, but it means that these class forces as manifested in political/military/social/etc. movements are a bit more complicated than the picture you're painting.

[La Guaneña]

No it isn't. Both are enemies of the working class. You may as well claim it makes sense to side with the fascists on the grounds that the government is the enemy of the working class. Whichever side you support, you're supporting the enemies of the working class. Why is supporting either a good idea?

If the communists are not able to defeat the fascists themselves, they should struggle for a temporary alliance that allows them to do so.

Bourgeois Democracy is a much more favourable situation than fascism or some sort of exception regime, due to the possibility of developing an open mass struggle.

[Blake's Baby]

I don't necessarily agree that the CPU should be siding with the government there, but to claim that all "enemies of the working class" are "just the same" is a bit much.

The obvious example that is bound to come up is the popular front era during WWII where bourgeois countries allied with Communist parties to combat fascism. This "alliance" was of course quickly dissolved after the war, but Communists (and bourgeoisie leaders) both realized that fascism was a threat to both.

That doesn't mean that the bourgeoisie was not opposed to the working class in that period, but it means that these class forces as manifested in political/military/social/etc. movements are a bit more complicated than the picture you're painting.

Yeah, and that's why the parties that allied with the bourgeois democracies are traitors to the working class.

No defence of the Soviet Union - a murderous imperialist state capitalist regime. No support for the Stalinist social-democrats, no support for the Trotskyist entrists. Class collaboration is class treason. Drumming up workers for support for the bourgeoisie's wars is the worst thing any so-called 'communist' 'socialist' or 'workers' party can do.

[Per Levy]

La Guaneña


Well, in this sort of die or kill situation with fascists, it's kind of smart to side with the people who want to kill the same people as you at the moment...

it isnt smart at all its the stupidest thing a supposed communist party could do, sacrificing their base, their independence to one part of the bourgoisie to fight another part of the bourgoisie. in the process the working class will only be used, once again, as cannonfodder for different wings of capital.


If the communists are not able to defeat the fascists themselves, they should struggle for a temporary alliance that allows them to do so.

the cpu isnt communist its a nationalistic, social conservative party who is part of the russophil part of the ukrainian bourgoisie.


Bourgeois Democracy is a much more favourable situation than fascism or some sort of exception regime, due to the possibility of developing an open mass struggle.

because fascism is what lurks in ukraine right now? come on, the opposition will look much like the current gouverment in its policies only that it will suck up to german/EU capital instead of russian capital.

KurtFF8


I don't necessarily agree that the CPU should be siding with the government there, but to claim that all "enemies of the working class" are "just the same" is a bit much.

why is it a bit much? the cpu defends the the state, secrurity focres, in other words the tools of bourgois opression that will be used to crush workers uprisings.


The obvious example that is bound to come up is the popular front era during WWII where bourgeois countries allied with Communist parties to combat fascism. This "alliance" was of course quickly dissolved after the war, but Communists (and bourgeoisie leaders) both realized that fascism was a threat to both.

yeah the "popular front", sacrificing the working class so a "communist" party can be part of a bourgois gouverment. these fronts were utter failures, they couldnt stop fascism, they weakend working class movements, popular fronts broke strikes and what not.

[La Guaneña]

La Guaneña



it isnt smart at all its the stupidest thing a supposed communist party could do, sacrificing their base, their independence to one part of the bourgoisie to fight another part of the bourgoisie. in the process the working class will only be used, once again, as cannonfodder for different wings of capital.


the cpu isnt communist its a nationalistic, social conservative party who is part of the russophil part of the ukrainian bourgoisie.

because fascism is what lurks in ukraine right now? come on, the opposition will look much like the current gouverment in its policies only that it will suck up to german/EU capital instead of russian capital.



Ukraine does not have a strong communist-oriented working class movement right now, you are struggling against reality. Fascism is what is lurking in Ukraine, as Svoboda and their fascist friends have never been this close to power in recent times.

The working class cannot fend off this threat by itself right now, and this is not time for infantile sectarianism.

[Blake's Baby]

Exactly, suck up to the government because the workers aren't strong enough on their own. Then they'll become strong! Because it's a well-known fact that workers' movements grow stronger when they support the police and the state.

Said no communist ever.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Police Storm Kiev Protest Camp (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26249330)


Police are storming the main protest camp in Ukraine's capital, Kiev, which has been occupied since November.

Explosions are taking place, fireworks are being thrown and large fires have broken out in Independence Square, known locally as the Maidan.

On Tuesday at least 18 people were killed, including seven policemen, in the worst violence seen in weeks.

Opposition leaders later met President Viktor Yanukovych but failed to find a solution to the crisis.

Vitaly Klitschko, leader of the opposition Udar (Punch) party, told Ukraine's Hromadske TV that the president had given the protesters only one option, leave the Maidan and go home.

Meanwhile, Mr Yanukovych's aide said the president was preparing to address the nation, without providing further details.

'Island of freedom'
Security forces had given protesters a deadline of 18:00 local time (16:00 GMT) to leave Independence Square, the scene of a mostly peaceful protest camp since November.

The city's metro service was completely shut down, and there were reports that cars were being prevented from coming in to the capital.

Then shortly before 18:00 GMT, police announced over loudspeakers that they were about to begin "an anti-terror operation".

More at link including pictures.

[Ele'ill]

Graphic, trigger warning, person gets shot, violence, police violence, etc..



Location: Kiev, Большая Житомирская street.

Reports of up to 18 people died in Ukraine's capital in the worst day of violence since anti-government demonstrations erupted 12 weeks ago.

Kiev plunged into chaos when protesters attempted to push towards the parliament and president Viktor Yanukovych's party headquarters. Protesters armed with rocks and petrol bombs fought running battles with riot police, who replied with water canons, stun grenades and rubber bullets.

Opposition leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk told the protesters police were using real bullets. "We see that this regime again has begun shooting people; they want to sink Ukraine in blood. We will not give in to a single provocation," Yatsenyuk said.

Up to seven policemen have died, some by gunshot. . As the riots continue into the night, the death toll is expected to rise, as more reports come in from Kiev.


http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=843_1392762816

[Ele'ill]

Also, more footage intense street fighting

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4e3_1392754077

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fec_1392732158

[Ele'ill]

folks using pistols/rifles

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=34e_1392746107

[PhoenixAsh]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bgzalj1CYAMmn_U.jpg:large


Kiev 2-3 hours ago

[PhoenixAsh]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bgy_YiOCAAErM5p.png

armed protesters according to Reuters.

[PhoenixAsh]

So...anybody know what the position of the army is in this?

[Ele'ill]

From the footage and reports I've seen I don't even understand why the police keep on doing their thing they continuously get cornered, beaten, knocked unconscious, robbed of their shit, and kidnapped (apparently), pelted with bricks, shot at with live ammunition, molotoved, their armored vehicles get shit on everywhere, they are constantly in retreat, the question is when is this going to go from the state being out-demoed to the state authorizing kills. From another thread the police issued a notice stating they were 'going to begin an anti-terror' thing.

[PhoenixAsh]

If the state wants to keep control in this situation they will have to escalate. The police aren't effective so the next step would be a state of emergency and order live ammunition for cops or order the army to move in.

I have read that Svoboda have called on armed citizens to come to the camp to form militia to protect the camp from the police. And authorities claim 9 cops have so far been killed and 39 suffer gunshot wounds.

[PhoenixAsh]

What is very interesting is to see how the protests and demo's are organized. Because we can learn from these tactics. I am very impressed by the way the police are indeed blocked at every turn and how useless the protesters have made them.


It is also interesting to observe that this whole situation is a huge battle of influence between the EU and Russia with both going so far as to downright buy political support. Modern imperialism.

[Ele'ill]

I think there's a lot of difference between the cops there and other places though, how they're acting, and how they're equipped.

[Os Cangaceiros]

From the news reports I've seen on TV, it looks like the riot police there are pretty well-equipped, they look pretty armored up. As far as tactics go it looks like the standard old riot police tactic of marching ******* + tear gas, trying to block access points and so on and so forth.

It looked like a bloody day today, supposedly 20+ dead

[Os Cangaceiros]

why the hell is the word "ph^lanx" blocked out?

[Questionable]

why the hell is the word "ph^lanx" blocked out?

There is a crypto-fascist message board named "Socialist P____x" that used to troll Revleft a bit.

[PhoenixAsh]

They failed to clear the protest camp tonight. The police were repelled. There are 20.000 protesters in the square.

Here is an incredibly boring live stream: http://rt.com/on-air/ukraine-central-kiev-protest/

As it seems...protesters have erected barricades and made a wall of fire which the police is now trying to extinguish.

I have read a tweet somewhere saying that armored vehicles have been moved into the city and that the city is currently on lock down. The metro has been closed and roads in and out of the city are under guard.

[PhoenixAsh]

Lets just agree that we are not on the side of these people:


http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/5595/7lyo.jpg

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

You can't marginalize the whole movement because of those nationalist shitheads.
In fact, most of them are pretty normal centrists.

Subjective opinions are irrelevant. The fact on the ground is that the fascists, popular or not, have been able to give consistent leadership and direction to the movement and are creating a fertile breeding ground for their agenda. Communists can under no circumstance align themselves with fascists. On the otherhand, to violently oppose the fascists when they are the primary force against the state is to render oneself subservient to the state.

So the only position that a Communist can take is complete abstention. Breaking the skulls of the fascist may sound appealing to the angsty social democrat inside of all of us but in such a scenario is to do the pig's work for them and hence anti-fascism can be analogous to fascism in such a case and perhaps I might go as far to say that anti-fascism might be a worse breed of fascism in this case because in addition to aligning oneself to the state one would also align oneself to the imperialist bourgeois of Russia. To do the dirty work of the state is to become inseparable from the state apparatus and is to become a cop without those inconvenient legal restrictions which the police must adhere to.

So in conclusion, fuck the CPU, fuck the Automen, fuck the government, fuck maiden, fuck the fascists. Did I forget anyone else? Well if I did, if you support or participate in these protests or their suppression then fuck you.

[fractal-vortex]

A Sociological Survey With the Purpose of Finding Out Which Social Layers Are the Militant Force of the Modern Revolution in Ukraine?

Read here: http://fractal-vortex.narod.ru/2014/survey.htm

[ckaihatsu]

Ukraine Police Move to Suppress Opposition

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic7Ovjtavw4


Ukrainian protesters and police light up Kiev's main square with petrol bombs and fireworks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNNeGI59uEc


A day of clashes in Kyiv leave a trail of public anger, shock and fear

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tp8qNnmSHdk


Journalist beaten by riot police in Kyiv

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blRNKZntTTE


Opposition MP describes Ukraine bloodshed to euronews

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxZ5s8w-hsw


Ukraine - bill to return to 2004 constitution blocked

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nk3pRhEBJew


Brutal video - Fierce clashes in Kiev as new wave of unrest grips Ukraine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ie0rj0l85Q4


Anger in Ukraine parliament as opposition constitution move blocked

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo7Y2CnCxMc


Scores of Ukrainians injured in worst street battles since January

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XBB4o5rUAHU


Smoke, tear gas & chaos as fresh violence flares in Kiev

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9_CG98eDrI


Ukraine - 'remove riot police' plea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVRTVr6PzuQ


Kiev demonstrators face 'a wall of riot police' in Ukraine protests - BBC News

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19lUaVntSmc


Clashes in Ukraine ahead of crucial parliament vote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oi0LUhaggs


Kremlin promises more cash to Kyiv

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ah6Gt7utsIk

[PhoenixAsh]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bg2D0zOCEAEgsHh.jpg

[Rusty Shackleford]

Two things: "Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich has fired Armed Forces head, Lieutenant-General Vladimir Zamana, and appointed Admiral Yury Ilyin as the new Army chief, Itar-Tass reports citing presidential press-service."


From a friend "The nazi gang that seized prosecutor's office in Ternopyl region (Ukraine) - declred themselves prosecutors"
http://img.pravda.com/images/doc/b/9/b9682b3-600-ternopol-.jpg

[Arlekino]

I am fare for worse and smell of rat, is that mean dead to Socialism. I am not joking this is serious treat against left wing ideology.

[PhoenixAsh]

Rioters have managed to gain access and control over 1500 fire arms, grenades and light machine guns and more than 100.000 rounds of ammunition. According to Aleksandr Yakimenko, head of the security forces.

Several government buildings have been captured around the country for example in Lvov where police HQ was seized.

There is now also serious talk of getting border guards and the military involved.

Protesters are also losing support in parliament after they called for the formation of militia and called for all armed civilians to come in the defense of the maidans.

[ckaihatsu]

Woman shot during protests in Western Ukraine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMNcOqzcAIU


EU calls for dialogue as Russia demands Ukrainian opposition stops bloodshed

Ihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vCwnuyqgM


Kiev erupts in overnight violence, fire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDOhHRyFeBQ


Protesters headquarters catch fire

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIEg4yCbA7Q


Ukrainian Protesters Target NY Federal Reserve

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbNUKlm4leg


Kiev Hospitals Treat Protesters, US Citizen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkQpTcQviUQ


Kerry Threatens Sanctions Against Ukraine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MH_-d76YOE0


At Least 25 Killed in Ukraine Protests

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnHmGxTDlxw


Riot Police Move in Against Kiev Protest Camp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fep3pec8srA


'Ukrainian protests degenerated from hooliganism to terrorism since January'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKkiazCsZ8M


Kiev drone footage: Aerial view of burning Maidan amid Ukranian riots

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MY2pxpwB98s


Kiev plunges into deadly violence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snv0g21Zrtg


Is Ukraine spinning out of control?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYzDzPn0YNE


Violence in Kiev underscores deep divides in Ukraine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jYX0cm9FkQ


Ukraine launches 'anti-terrorist' operation after government buildings attacked

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkjjY-zKf28


Ukrainian police held in check pay with lives

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOLO7gNqt0o


Euronews Kyiv correspondent: 'They say they are not going to provoke the police... but they know...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO5SqdvRzJ8


Unrest in Ukraine: Armed protesters clash with police in Kiev

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq8OzRXUgbk


Francois Hollande and Angela Merkel set to discuss sanctions against Ukraine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SE5hfptu2w


Tension in Ukraine as protesters anticipate more battles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efWJpJzSebc


Ukraine: St Michael's Cathedral, refuge and field hospital for Kyiv protesters

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBJVtzS9yzI


Unrest spreads to other Ukrainian cities in the west

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FQJVwQLN-0


Ukraine Protests: Footage shows soldiers 'surrender' - BBC News

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hsal8dQ8pQ


President Yanukovych blames 'radical elements for Ukraine clashes - BBC News

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQeeN7CZwpA

[PhoenixAsh]

well...


Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych says he had agreed a truce with anti-government opposition leaders and had pledged an end to attacks on protesters.


The news was revealed via a statement on the President’s official website.

It said he had agreed to ‘the start to negotiations with the aim of ending bloodshed, and stabilising the situation in the state in the interests of social peace’.

The statement was issued the night before a planned visit by the foreign ministers of Germany, Poland and France.

It promised that riot police would take no further steps to break up the protest camp in Kiev’s Independent Square.

Former economy minister Arseny Yatseniuk, one of three opposition leaders who held talks with the President tonight said: “The storming of the Maidan (Independence Square) which the authorities had planned today will not take place.

“A truce has been declared. The main thing is to protect human life.”

Yanukovich issued his statement after meeting Yatseniuk and the two other opposition leaders, boxer-turned-politician Vitaly Klitschko and far-right nationalist Oleh Tyahnibok.



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/ukraine-protests-live-updates-armoured-3159677#ixzz2tojHibVV
Follow us: @DailyMirror on Twitter | DailyMirror on Facebook

[Ele'ill]

Lets just agree that we are not on the side of these people:


I don't know for sure. That picture was an old one (or it's new and looks like the old one, still valid though). There are nationalists and fascists amidst the folks throwing down but I have not heard exactly what the make up is. I've heard everything from people are done with the police and their violence, I've heard it is entirely fascists, I've heard that it is anarchists and fascists, I've heard that it is confused conservatives sick of mostly what everyone else is doing their thing along side liberals and 'moderates' etc... tbh I have no idea what is going on there. I do think that if folks are gonna get weapons and fight that they should know what they want. If the government, like it has allegedly done, says 'okay what's up what is your wildest dream we're resigning, we've had enough, have at it', said folks should already be engaged in that activity from the start but I haven't heard anything of it.

[PhoenixAsh]

The hard core of the protests is being formed by nationalists varying from moderate to radical. Svoboda and Right Sector are joined by several para military groups of veterans like Afgantsy and several neo-nazi and fascist groups like UNAp....and national anarchists. That said...there are a lot of liberal groups there too. But the brunt of the violent clashes have been carried by nationalists.

Revolutionary anarchists are really marginal in the protests

[Ele'ill]

trigger warning, seriously injured in the first half of the video, dead folks in second half. It is a battlefield.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a51_1392842183

[Prometeo liberado]

Marie3L, I'm a little confused. Were those government men clearing the street? Looks like they had emblems on their shoulders.

[cyu]

Haven't really thought of it until just now, but I might have to start viewing the Ukrainian conflict as part of a larger conflict that includes Syria. Sure each region has their unique characteristics, but behind the scenes, it seems the major stakeholders are fueled by either Americans trying to gain influence in the region, or Russians trying to gain influence in the region.

The Cold War is back? Or maybe it never really ended.

[Os Cangaceiros]

The EU is a power in it's own right I think, not a vassal of the USA, although definitely affiliated with the USA.

[PhoenixAsh]

Ok...truce is over again and we are back to fighting.

21 dead in a matter of four hours. Some people are shot in the head with rifle bullets.

Protesters claim its a government sniper. Government claims it is protesters trying to escalate.

Protesters threatened Yanukovich would end as Ghaddafi

[Zukunftsmusik]

National newspapers here claim Ukraine is on the brink of civil war. Apparently Lviv has declared independence.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I was reading that government snipers were firing into the crowd, but instead of this dispersing them, they became enraged and charged the building the snipers were in, caught the police off guard, forced their way in and beat the snipers to death.

If nothing else this protest shows how incompetent and out of touch a lot of ruling powers really are. At every point where a decision could be made to difuse the situation or to at least strip legitimacy from the protesters, the government has made a choice that weakens their own position and makes them look like easy targets. It's easy to feel helpless when confronted by ranks of armored pigs, but we should remember that their bosses are still idiots who wreck their own economies and ecosystems on a regular basis. They aren't even very good decision makers, let alone gods.

[Queen Mab]

http://avtonomia.net/2014/02/20/maidan-contradictions-interview-ukrainian-revolutionary-syndicalist/

[Delenda Carthago]

Fuck both Russia and EU. The people should not fight struggles under the banners of no part of the Capital.

[cyu]

If the CIA follows the "Destabilization First" plan, like in Afghanistan where they'd arm any warlord willing to show up for the "Northern Alliance" - then Ukraine may end up like the same mess that Syria is in right now, except that instead of randomly arming any ragtag group willing to fight the Syrian government, they'll be a mess of fascists instead.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

The protesters have been stealing weapons from the state, they aren't being armed by the CIA. I don't think the CIA is even necessary to destabilize Ukraine, the government seems to be doing a perfectly good job at that on their own. Do you have something to backup your CIA theory? In Syria there was tons of evidence that the US was arming people even early on, I haven't seen anything like that for this situation.

[boiler]

Statement about the situation in Ukraine from AWU

Statement about the situation in Ukraine from AWU (Autonomous Workers Union). "This is not our war, but the victory of the government will mean the defeat of the workers. The victory of the Opposition also does not promise anything good."
Statement about the situation in Ukraine from AWU (Autonomous Workers Union).

Civil war began in Ukraine yesterday. A less than peaceful demonstration clashed with state defense forces and divisions formed by the adherents of the current government near the Vekhovna Rada (Parliament).

On February 18, police, together with the paramilitaries, arranged a bloodbath in the governmental quarters during which numerous demonstrators were killed. Butchers from the special divisions finished off arrestees. Deputies of the ruling Party of Regions and their bourgeois lackeys from the “Communist” Party of Ukraine fled from the Parliament through an underground tunnel. The vote for constitutional amendments, intended to limit presidential power, did not take place after all.

After their defeat in the governmental quarters, demonstrators retreated to the Maidan. At 6 P.M., the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Internal Security Bureau (SBU) declared an ultimatum to the protesters, demanding their dispersal. At 8:00 P.M., special police forces and paramilitaries, equipped with water cannons and armored vehicles, began their raid on the barricades.

Police, the special divisions of SBU, as well as pro-governmental troopers made use of their firearms. However, the protesters managed to burn down one of the armored police vehicles, and it turned out that governmental forces were not the only ones in possession of guns.

According to the data released by the police (on February, 19, 4 p.m.), 24 people were killed: 14 protesters and 10 policemen. Thirty-one policemen received gunshot wounds.

Even if their estimate of losses on the side of the police is accurate, the number of victims among the protesters was definitely diminished. Maidan’s medics cite at least 30 killed.

One gets an impression that President Yanukovich was certain that by morning the resistance would be crushed, and so arranged for the Opposition leaders to meet with him at 11 A.M. on February, 19. As the negotiations did not take place, we can conclude that the government’s plan had failed.

During the unsuccessful operation to clear off the Maidan, the citizens of several western regions occupied administrative buildings and chased away the police.

At the moment the police, as an institution, do not exist in L’viv. According to the SBU, protesters have captured 1500 firearms. In less than 24 hours, the central government lost control over a section of the country.

Right now, the only solution may be the stepping down of the President, however, that would mean that he, his family, and their multiple acolytes and dependents, which form a rather large group in the ruling government, would lose their source of profit. It is likely that they will not accept this.

In the event of Yanukovich’s victory, he will become a ruler for life, and the rest will be doomed to a life in which they face poverty, corruption, and the abolition of their rights and freedoms. Rebellious regions are now experiencing massive restorations of “the constitutional order.”

It is not improbable that the suppression of such “terroristic groups” in Galicia will have the character of ethnic cleansing. Mad Orthodox radicals from the Party of Regions have, for a long time, seen the conservative Greco-Catholics as the aids of “Eurosodom.” Such an “antiterrorist” operation would be carried out with the assistance of the army, as the Minister of Defense, Lebedev, has already announced.

Today, Ukraine experiences a tragedy, but the real horror will start when the government breaks down the opposition and “stabilizes” the situation.

Signs of the preparation of a mass-cleansing operation became noticeable as far back as early February, when criminal cases were opened against the Maidan self-defense divisions as illegal military formations. According to Article 260 of the Criminal Codex, members of such divisions may face imprisonment for 2 to 15 years. This means that the government was planning to put more than 10 thousand citizens behind bars.

In the regions, as well as in the capital, special “death divisions” are acting as a supplement to the usual police forces. For example, responsibility for burning alive a Maidan activist from Zaporozhye was claimed by such a “death division,” calling itself “Sebastopol Ghosts.” They announced that they are ready to subject Maidan participants in the East to similar treatment.

In the event of the Opposition’s victory life would be far from perfect as well.

Although fascists form the minority of the protesters, they are quite active and are not the sharpest tools in the shed. A few days of truce in mid-February lead to conflicts between the rightist groups, resulting in several pointless and violent confrontations, as well as attacks on ideological ‘heretics.’

Besides the fascists, old and experienced Oppositionists will also attempt to seize power. Many of them already have some experience with working in government and they are no strangers to corruption, favoritism, and the use of budget funds for personal purposes.

The “concessions” that the Opposition is demanding in Parliament right now are pitiful. Even the Constitution of 2004, that they are trying to restore, gives too much power to the President (control over the riot police and special forces is one example), and the proportional electoral system, with closed listings, hands parliament over to the control of a group of dictator-like leaders, who can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Together with the President they will rule without obstructions.

Their second demand – the appointment of a Cabinet of Ministers composed of Opposition leaders – is altogether shameful. Are people risking their health, freedom, and life for the sake of someone becoming a prime-minister, and someone-else getting an opportunity to control the flow of corrupt-money? This is the logical outcome of preferring pathos-ridden conversations on “the nation,” and focusing on vertical structures tied to the same hated politicians, instead of developing ground-up organizations around financial and material interests.

This is the main lesson that Maidan is yet to learn.

However, we will be able to apply this lesson in practice only if the current government loses the battle.

The Opposition inside and outside of the Parliament is broken into multiple hostile and competing factions. If it wins, the ensuing regime will be unstable and lacking in coherency. It will be as bourgeois and repressive as was the Party of Regions before their first show of force against the protesters in November.

The guilt for the spilled blood is partially on the EU which gladly receives money from the corrupt scumbags in Ukraine, Russia, and several African countries, while diligently neglecting to check the source of such “investments.” It is only after seeing the dead bodies of the victims of such “investors,” that it gets so very sentimental and full of humanitarian pathos.

This is not our war, but the victory of the government will mean the defeat of the workers. The victory of the Opposition also does not promise anything good. We cannot call the proletariat to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the Opposition and its interests. We think that the extent of participation in this conflict is a matter of personal choice. However, we encourage all to avoid being drafted to serve in the internal military forces controlled by Yanukovich, and to sabotage by all means available the actions of the government.

No gods, no masters, no nations, no borders!
Kiev organization AWU (Autonomous Workers Union).

http://www.anarkismo.net/article/26762

[boiler]

Statement about the situation in Ukraine from AWU (Autonomous Workers Union). "This is not our war, but the victory of the government will mean the defeat of the workers. The victory of the Opposition also does not promise anything good."
Statement about the situation in Ukraine from AWU (Autonomous Workers Union).

Civil war began in Ukraine yesterday. A less than peaceful demonstration clashed with state defense forces and divisions formed by the adherents of the current government near the Vekhovna Rada (Parliament).

On February 18, police, together with the paramilitaries, arranged a bloodbath in the governmental quarters during which numerous demonstrators were killed. Butchers from the special divisions finished off arrestees. Deputies of the ruling Party of Regions and their bourgeois lackeys from the “Communist” Party of Ukraine fled from the Parliament through an underground tunnel. The vote for constitutional amendments, intended to limit presidential power, did not take place after all.

After their defeat in the governmental quarters, demonstrators retreated to the Maidan. At 6 P.M., the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the Internal Security Bureau (SBU) declared an ultimatum to the protesters, demanding their dispersal. At 8:00 P.M., special police forces and paramilitaries, equipped with water cannons and armored vehicles, began their raid on the barricades.

Police, the special divisions of SBU, as well as pro-governmental troopers made use of their firearms. However, the protesters managed to burn down one of the armored police vehicles, and it turned out that governmental forces were not the only ones in possession of guns.

According to the data released by the police (on February, 19, 4 p.m.), 24 people were killed: 14 protesters and 10 policemen. Thirty-one policemen received gunshot wounds.

Even if their estimate of losses on the side of the police is accurate, the number of victims among the protesters was definitely diminished. Maidan’s medics cite at least 30 killed.

One gets an impression that President Yanukovich was certain that by morning the resistance would be crushed, and so arranged for the Opposition leaders to meet with him at 11 A.M. on February, 19. As the negotiations did not take place, we can conclude that the government’s plan had failed.

During the unsuccessful operation to clear off the Maidan, the citizens of several western regions occupied administrative buildings and chased away the police.

At the moment the police, as an institution, do not exist in L’viv. According to the SBU, protesters have captured 1500 firearms. In less than 24 hours, the central government lost control over a section of the country.

Right now, the only solution may be the stepping down of the President, however, that would mean that he, his family, and their multiple acolytes and dependents, which form a rather large group in the ruling government, would lose their source of profit. It is likely that they will not accept this.

In the event of Yanukovich’s victory, he will become a ruler for life, and the rest will be doomed to a life in which they face poverty, corruption, and the abolition of their rights and freedoms. Rebellious regions are now experiencing massive restorations of “the constitutional order.”

It is not improbable that the suppression of such “terroristic groups” in Galicia will have the character of ethnic cleansing. Mad Orthodox radicals from the Party of Regions have, for a long time, seen the conservative Greco-Catholics as the aids of “Eurosodom.” Such an “antiterrorist” operation would be carried out with the assistance of the army, as the Minister of Defense, Lebedev, has already announced.

Today, Ukraine experiences a tragedy, but the real horror will start when the government breaks down the opposition and “stabilizes” the situation.

Signs of the preparation of a mass-cleansing operation became noticeable as far back as early February, when criminal cases were opened against the Maidan self-defense divisions as illegal military formations. According to Article 260 of the Criminal Codex, members of such divisions may face imprisonment for 2 to 15 years. This means that the government was planning to put more than 10 thousand citizens behind bars.

In the regions, as well as in the capital, special “death divisions” are acting as a supplement to the usual police forces. For example, responsibility for burning alive a Maidan activist from Zaporozhye was claimed by such a “death division,” calling itself “Sebastopol Ghosts.” They announced that they are ready to subject Maidan participants in the East to similar treatment.

In the event of the Opposition’s victory life would be far from perfect as well.

Although fascists form the minority of the protesters, they are quite active and are not the sharpest tools in the shed. A few days of truce in mid-February lead to conflicts between the rightist groups, resulting in several pointless and violent confrontations, as well as attacks on ideological ‘heretics.’

Besides the fascists, old and experienced Oppositionists will also attempt to seize power. Many of them already have some experience with working in government and they are no strangers to corruption, favoritism, and the use of budget funds for personal purposes.

The “concessions” that the Opposition is demanding in Parliament right now are pitiful. Even the Constitution of 2004, that they are trying to restore, gives too much power to the President (control over the riot police and special forces is one example), and the proportional electoral system, with closed listings, hands parliament over to the control of a group of dictator-like leaders, who can be counted on the fingers of one hand. Together with the President they will rule without obstructions.

Their second demand – the appointment of a Cabinet of Ministers composed of Opposition leaders – is altogether shameful. Are people risking their health, freedom, and life for the sake of someone becoming a prime-minister, and someone-else getting an opportunity to control the flow of corrupt-money? This is the logical outcome of preferring pathos-ridden conversations on “the nation,” and focusing on vertical structures tied to the same hated politicians, instead of developing ground-up organizations around financial and material interests.

This is the main lesson that Maidan is yet to learn.

However, we will be able to apply this lesson in practice only if the current government loses the battle.

The Opposition inside and outside of the Parliament is broken into multiple hostile and competing factions. If it wins, the ensuing regime will be unstable and lacking in coherency. It will be as bourgeois and repressive as was the Party of Regions before their first show of force against the protesters in November.

The guilt for the spilled blood is partially on the EU which gladly receives money from the corrupt scumbags in Ukraine, Russia, and several African countries, while diligently neglecting to check the source of such “investments.” It is only after seeing the dead bodies of the victims of such “investors,” that it gets so very sentimental and full of humanitarian pathos.

This is not our war, but the victory of the government will mean the defeat of the workers. The victory of the Opposition also does not promise anything good. We cannot call the proletariat to sacrifice themselves for the sake of the Opposition and its interests. We think that the extent of participation in this conflict is a matter of personal choice. However, we encourage all to avoid being drafted to serve in the internal military forces controlled by Yanukovich, and to sabotage by all means available the actions of the government.

No gods, no masters, no nations, no borders!
Kiev organization AWU (Autonomous Workers Union).

http://www.anarkismo.net/article/26762

[boiler]

‘Ukraine is just a stepping stone in Europe’s global game’

Protests in Ukraine would not have reached such violence if the forces behind the unrest were not backed by powerful sponsors, Christophe Hoerstal, a consultant to Germany's government, told RT. But is proclaimed democracy in Ukraine really the main goal?

RT: Disturbing developments are taking place in Kiev. Eighteen people have reportedly been killed. What do you make of the situation there? Is it out of control?

Christophe Hoerstal: Not yet. It takes time. But I’m very serious here. This marks a turning point. We had two of these so-called opposition leaders, [Vitaly] Klichko and [Arseniy] Yatsenyuk, yesterday talking to Merkel and she refused sanctions.

What I see is interfering powers in Ukraine, led by Washington. And at the helm of the European action is Germany. They are interfering now in such a way that sanctions become tangible. They are around the corner and armed violence is around the corner.

It’s very close to a civil war steered from the outside and it reminds me of Syria where the US is threatening a no-fly zone...humanitarian concerns will be quoted by the US and Germany to interfere further.

RT: So that explains the timing of this meeting in Germany and this sudden surge of violence after a relative period of calm?

CH: Yes, that’s all planned. I think that this is a planned scheme that Merkel is on Monday refusing sanctions and then this kind of violence in Ukraine starts to erupt, and that means they are making Ukraine reach a stage where sanctions can come in.

RT: Would Germany and other European interests want to see this sort of violence? Obviously they’re supporting the protesters, but are they really supporting those behind this disturbing violence we’re seeing today?

CH: I can tell you from my political experience of a long time that violent protesters would not dare to do this kind of thing if there was not some backing from abroad, very clearly.

RT: But are the moderates in some ways being hijacked by the nationalists and extremists in all of this?

CH: Yeah, that’s happening right now. Look at the face of Mr. Klitchko in the Spiegel weekly newspaper and on the website of Der Spiegel yesterday evening; he looked deeply unhappy and troubled, and Yatsenyuk was looking weary. So this is very clear, they know this game is going against Ukraine, and they are a part of it. And that’s very bad.

RT: So who replaces Yanukovich if that should happen? Nationalists? Extremists? Is that really what Germany wants to see?

CH: I think they will have their ways to replace the government and have a regime change in the way they want it, and they will put an obedient person on top if they can, but I hope it doesn’t come to that because peace in Europe is wearing thin with this kind of action in Ukraine. Very clearly they mean Russia. They are not meaning Ukraine. Ukraine is just a stepping stone. They want Russia. They want the whole cake.

RT: What about the domestic situation there? Would an early election dissolve or solve any of the violence at the moment? After all, that's what the protesters want. But Yanukovich was democratically elected and elections are expected to take place early next year.

CH: As I said in another interview a few days ago, I wouldn’t advise the Ukrainian government to go for early elections, because what would Western countries, the German secret services, the CIA, and the US do with this kind of election? They would try to create a situation with all of their billions of dollars in Ukraine, which is helpful for that kind of regime change. I wouldn’t advise the Ukrainian government – the elected, rightful, legal government – to help Western countries in their interference.

RT: You have talked about the ambitions of Western countries' interference. What about Russia’s position now? What do you make of its reaction to the events so far and how it’s been playing this?

CH: The Russians have done a very good game right now, of being very careful with their reactions, not trying to blackmail the Ukrainian government. They are paying out two billion dollars, no matter what...and that was a very good idea to do that. Also a very clever idea to announce that on Monday afternoon – a few hours before the Merkel government could come up with 600 million euro from the European Union, which is comparably peanuts.

So we have a situation where Russia is prudent, but one thing is very clear – and this is a most important issue. The Ukrainian government has to address the rightful wishes of the people of Ukraine. That has nothing to do with this kind of bloody interference and unless we see very intelligent and wise steps by the government to address these woes, unless we have that, we cannot have a solution for the Ukrainian situation no matter what.

http://rt.com/op-edge/ukraine-europe-global-game-625/

[Ariel88]

don't know enough (or anything really) about politics in the Ukraine to say if there's any dynamic involved where workers alternatives to being subordinate to one power or another might be organized or agitated - or how the economic angst is viewd among working people. There's certainly a throwback to the old communist principles of the Soviet Union at play. Many in the west see links with Russia as repressive and harking back to the old iron curtain days with many favouring closer ties with Europe and more progressive politics. Those in the primarily Russian speaking industrial east favour the old ways, and wish to remain close to Russia. Hence the split and talk of civil war unfolding.

I think the heart of the unrest stems from increased presidential powers and increasingly draconian government policies restricting people's right to question government decision makers. Its certainly much more complex than a simple disagreement over who to sign a trade agreement with.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

hmm. So the CIA are directing operations in Syria, Ukraine and Venezuela all at the same time?

Doubtful.

Venezuela I can definitely believe, because they have form there. Syria too, perhaps. But Ukraine? No. Why would they?

[boiler]

I would say if the CIA were to direct operations in Ukraine it would to get one over on Russia.

[cyu]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

The Revolutions of 1989 and the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact in 1991 removed the de facto main adversary of NATO. NATO began a gradual expansion to include newly autonomous Eastern European nations, and extended its activities into situations that had not formerly been NATO concerns.

To secure Soviet approval of a united Germany remaining in NATO, it was agreed that foreign troops and nuclear weapons would not be stationed in the east. Stephen F. Cohen argued that a commitment was given that NATO would never expand further east, but according to a State Department official no formal commitment was made. In May 2008, Gorbachev repeated his view that such a commitment had been made, and that "the Americans promised that NATO wouldn't move beyond the boundaries of Germany after the Cold War".

Russia continues to oppose further expansion, seeing it as inconsistent with understandings between Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev and US President George H. W. Bush that allowed for a peaceful German reunification. NATO's expansion efforts are seen by Moscow leaders as a continuation of a Cold War attempt to surround and isolate Russia. After the 2010 election in Ukraine, pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych declared his administration would not be pursuing NATO membership.

[Sasha]

Fuck both Russia and EU. The people should not fight struggles under the banners of no part of the Capital.

maybe its time your dear KKE should start to reconsider their ties with the CPU then? :rolleyes:

[Sasha]

I was reading that government snipers were firing into the crowd, but instead of this dispersing them, they became enraged and charged the building the snipers were in, caught the police off guard, forced their way in and beat the snipers to death.

If nothing else this protest shows how incompetent and out of touch a lot of ruling powers really are. At every point where a decision could be made to difuse the situation or to at least strip legitimacy from the protesters, the government has made a choice that weakens their own position and makes them look like easy targets. It's easy to feel helpless when confronted by ranks of armored pigs, but we should remember that their bosses are still idiots who wreck their own economies and ecosystems on a regular basis. They aren't even very good decision makers, let alone gods.

the cops and special forces are shooting at the protesters with kalashnikovs on full auto, even if they are in part fascists i cant blame the protesters from starting to shoot back, this can only end in civil war now...

[ckaihatsu]

Death toll mounts in Ukraine as leaders scramble for peace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxj4Z9kbk_A


Ukraine government, opposition agree to a truce

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNfGMNOKhZE


Obama: No revival of "Cold War" with Russia over Ukraine, Syria

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQt_XjVtKO0


Kiev demonstrators rally into the night as opposition leaders meet with the presidency

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbCJ98cezJY


White House Voices Great Concern Over Ukraine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1e_43lu7hY


New Ukraine Clashes As Truce Collapses

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQ3BfiZTpiA


Ukraine's President, Protesters Agree on Truce

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LikDtFQi09I


Obama Warns of Consequences for Ukraine Violence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SftUiaHst58


CrossTalk: Kiev's Violent Agony

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQQ1J1QOtOU


Ukraine riots according to Obama: 'Peaceful protesters' oppressed by govt

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbHvvKmTfuI


Inside Kiev Riot: Close-up view of Independence Square warzone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3WPsNohqQA


Death toll rising in Kiev's spiral of violence, protesters capture cops

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEiJfkjboe8


Shots fired at RT crew in Kiev as riots reignited

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPsxyKRkuCU


From bricks to bullets: Police footage shows Kiev rioters going ballistic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0kTv_8lwiQ


Obama urges restraint in Ukraine crisis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqIGVKaNFwk


Violence in Kiev underscores deep divides in Ukraine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jYX0cm9FkQ


The Ukraine Divide, Explained | The New York Times

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBteQg56DOk


Bloodiest day in Kyiv: EU announce sanctions and talks with President Viktor Yanukovych set to...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1z27T6T6Vo


Ukrainian 'love' split between 'motherland' and EU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sV1ycKCjnc


Sniper fire brings disturbing new dimension to Ukraine violence

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OazbXhqMgmI


Ukraine's regions begin to rise against Yanukovych

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gguE84Vty3g


Ukraine launches 'anti-terrorist' operation after government buildings attacked

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkjjY-zKf28

[PhoenixAsh]

The question is who shot first. Accounts really seem to vary throughout the last few days. So it is a vicious circle.
It could all be a conscious effort to provoke more violence.

But what is interesting is that it were the right wing groups and Afghan veterans that first armed themselves. I have read accounts of civil servants being trapped in buildings by protesters who used molotovs and fireworks in order to burn them on several occasions.

[The Intransigent Faction]

hmm. So the CIA are directing operations in Syria, Ukraine and Venezuela all at the same time?

Doubtful.

Venezuela I can definitely believe, because they have form there. Syria too, perhaps. But Ukraine? No. Why would they?

Why wouldn't they? They consider the entire globe their area of jurisdiction, and Ukraine is part of the former Eastern Bloc in which the West wants to maintain a presence, ideologically and otherwise.

[aristos]

Actually it is not clear yet who it is that is shooting at the protesters. I have heard doubts expressed about the identity of the supposed security troops. Their tactics and outward appearance seem to be raising a few doubts (strange uniform, out of place armbands, civilian shoes, outdated and generally wrong weapons, mismatching behavior, "snipers" sniping in full view and from the same distance as non-snipers)

Let's not be naive, everyone pulling the strings here is completely cynical (whether Russia, US, EU, fascists, Ukrainian oligarchs) - so I wouldn't put it above the backers of the protest to stage stuff. Unidentified snipers escalating the situation were frequently present in similar past scenarios. A notorious case of escalating conflict to achieve a desired outcome was the use of these very tactics back in 1993 with the Moscow popular uprising.

[Comrade Chernov]

the cops and special forces are shooting at the protesters with kalashnikovs on full auto, even if they are in part fascists i cant blame the protesters from starting to shoot back, this can only end in civil war now...

From what I've heard, these were actually members of the Right Sector dressed up as Berkut special police forces in order to further radicalize the protesters by making them think the police were firing on them.

Compare these "policemen" (http://24.media.tumblr.com/377fa69f23df5ef32af05d61f5a34977/tumblr_n1awbm73kz1r2zn66o1_500.jpg) to members of Right Sector and Svoboda (http://i.imgur.com/YfiMypj.jpg). (Especially note the armbands.) My understanding is that the Berkut phased out AK47s from their arsenals a while ago, as well as that particular design of SWAT-like body armor.

EDIT: I see that aristos ninja'd me. Damn.

[Geraldo]

:grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin::grin:

http://www.bediro.com/images/3/w1.png

[Lily Briscoe]

From what I've heard, these were actually members of the Right Sector dressed up as Berkut special police forces in order to further radicalize the protesters by making them think the police were firing on them.
And where are you getting this from?

[Comrade Chernov]

Rumors. Everything about what's happening right now is rumors. But the pictures don't lie.

[∞]

I need to know the answer to these questions:

What overall is the political alignment of the protesters as a majority?

If theoretically the protesters got their way in parliamentary politics what political acts would that bring?

Would these political actions be inherently reactionary?


If so, then these protests are done by people who would rather stamp and shout then actually figure out what they are protesting about.

[sixdollarchampagne]

PBS (US public television) just broadcast a very disturbing report, in which one can see police or military snipers, "government forces," acting in support of Yanukovich and his regime, killing anti-government protesters, shooting down innocent people for exercising basic democratic rights, to paraphrase a PBS commentator. So I very much doubt that there is anything "socialist" about such a regime.

At the same time, obviously, sanctions by the US and European imperialist powers are not supportable, either.

Humanity pays a *big* price when genuine workers' revolution is postponed, I think.

[tachosomoza]

Both sides are against the Ukrainian worker. In one hand you have the corrupt national bourgeoisie in your President and his family, in the other you have the corrupt EU international bourgeois union.

[Sasha]

I need to know the answer to these questions:

What overall is the political alignment of the protesters as a majority?

impossible to say, uprisings, especially divisive ones, dont tend to be the optimal time to hold regular and representative census polls among the people.
"Sorry sir, if you can stop lobbing firebombs for a moment and mister police offcier can stop shooting at us i would like to ask you some time to take this survey".


If theoretically the protesters got their way in parliamentary politics what political acts would that bring?i think the AWU statement Boiler linked to above is probably as best we can get on possible scenario's, though maybe the early ellections that are now given will temper it all a bit.


Would these political actions be inherently reactionary? probably, but at least equally will a victory of the current regime


If so, then these protests are done by people who would rather stamp and shout then actually figure out what they are protesting about.or maybe this is a very heterogeneous mess with all kinds of different motivations and where cause, effect, chicken and egg all got mixed up ages ago.
people took to the streets in november 2013 over whether to forge stronger alignments with russia or the EU, by now in februari 2014 people are on the streets because cops are shooting at people and a delegitimized president is refusing to step down, likewise the popularity of the fascists is no indication of popular support for their ideology or likely political actions if they get (partly) in power, they are popular because they are the most effective fighting force taking on the regime, even though maybe they could be in majority reactionary the majority of the protesters is not nazi, their increased support is an indication of the appreciation and appeal they have over their uncompromising fighting, not their politics.
if the CPU e.a. wouldnt have fucked shit up so badly by being corrupt stooges with a stalin fetish radical leftism might have been in the position the fash are now.

[boiler]

Ukraine protest leaders sign deal with government
Details of confirmed agreement remain unclear after all-night talks led by foreign ministers of Poland, France and Germany

EU ministers mediating fraught negotiations between government and opposition factions in Ukraine have said the protest council has signed a deal with the president.

The breakthrough was confirmed in a tweet from the German foreign office: "After talks with [foreign minister Frank-Walter] Steinmeier, Maidan's civic council [the protest leadership] decided to mandate opposition leaders to sign agreement."

Ukrainian opposition leader Oleh Tyahnibok confirmed the protest council had reached an agreement with the acting minister of interior to resolve the crisis, in which 100 people are thought to have been killed in the last three days.

Poland's foreign minister, Radek Sikorski, was caught on video telling a protest leader: "If you don't support this deal you will have martial law, the army. You'll be dead."

Herman Van Rompuy, the president of the European council, welcomed the deal in more diplomatic terms with a tweet: "#Ukraine: welcome the agreement; necessary compromise, launch of indispensable political dialogue for democratic, peaceful way out of crisis."

The agreement, published in full on the German foreign ministry website, states that presidential elections should be held no later than December and says the authorities will not impose a state of emergency on condition that the authorities and opposition refrain from further use of violence.

The sides have also agreed that an investigation must be launched into the acts of violence committed, under joint monitoring from the Ukrainian authorities, opposition and the Council of Europe.

European mediators have been cautious in welcoming Russian-backed President Viktor Yanukovych's claims of success following a series of concessions to pro-European protesters, including an agreement to hold early elections by December.

In a statement published on the presidential website, he said: "There are no steps that we should not take to restore peace in Ukraine." He said the country would revert to a previous constitution under which the president has less authority.

The Germans said the talks had been "very difficult", continuing all night and stopping for a break after 7am. Sikorski also voiced scepticism that a deal had been reached that could resolve the crisis. He said Ukraine was at a "delicate moment" and "all sides need to remember that compromise means getting less than 100%".

It is not clear whether protesters will accept the deal as it stands. Anton Solovyov, 28, an IT worker in the central square, said: "This is just another piece of paper. We will not leave the barricades until Yanukovych steps down. That's all people want."

After the worst bloodshed in the country's 23 years of independence, Kiev awoke to a bright, sunny and peaceful day, with the city centre firmly in the hands of the anti-Yanukovych protest movement, and the riot police – ubiquitous until Thursday morning – barely to be seen. It was not long, however, before shots rang out through Independence Square as police clashed with protesters.

"Participants in the mass disorder opened fire on police officers and tried to burst through in the direction of the parliament building," a police statement said.

The opposition leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk, speaking in the parliament building a mile away, said armed police had entered the premises, but the deputy speaker said they had been forced out.

Thousands remained on Independence Square, or Maidan, after police pitched battles on Thursday. The protesters have vastly expanded the area of the city centre under their control and have quickly built huge barricades and reinforced positions to keep the security forces at bay. There was no let-up in the speech-making, singing and praying led from the stage at the centre of the square.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/21/ukraine-president-says-deal-has-been-reached-opposition-bloodshed?CMP=fb_gu

[Delenda Carthago]

maybe its time your dear KKE should start to reconsider their ties with the CPU then? :rolleyes:
"My dear KKE" has not ties with CPU you fuckin moron, but with a small communist organisation called "Union of Communists of Ukraine (http://www.solidnet.org/ukraine-union-of-communists-of-ukraine)" you lying piece of shit. Fuck you and fuck those that "liked" your fuckin lies.








Statement of the Press Office of the CC of the KKE about the development in Ukraine

http://inter.kke.gr/export/sites/inter/.content/images/news/ukraine.jpg_571038298.jpg The bloody events in Kiev are linked to the intervention of the EU and the USA in the developments in Ukraine, are the result of the fierce competition of these powers with Russia over the control of the markets, raw materials and the country’s transport network.

From this standpoint, the interventions of the EU and the USA in favour of the demonstrators of the opposition, who are allegedly fighting for “freedom” and “democracy”, for the accession of Ukraine to the EU, are extremely hypocritical . In reality, the EU and the USA support and utilize even armed fascist forces, which are active inside the Ukrainian opposition in order to promote their geopolitical goals in the Eurasia region.

Of course that attachment of Ukraine to the tank of contemporary capitalist Russia is not a solution for the people. The attempt to divide the Ukrainian people and to lead them to a bloodbath, with immeasurably tragic consequences for their country, so that they choose the one or the other inter-state capitalist union is entirely alien to the interests of the workers.

The KKE denounces the foreign interventions in the internal affairs of Ukraine. It denounces the activity of fascist forces, anti-communism and acts of vandalism against the Lenin monument and other Soviet monuments.

We express our solidarity with the communists and the working people of Ukraine and the conviction that they must organize their independent struggle with their interests as the criterion and not with the criterion of the imperialist which is chosen by the one or the other section of the Ukrainian plutocracy. They must chart the path for socialism, which is the only alternative solution to the impasses of the capitalist development path.

The peoples, particularly of the countries of the former USSR, lived with peace and prosperity in the years of socialism. For this reason, in any case, the majority of the population fondly recalls socialism, despite the fact that over 20 years have passed and the younger generations have not experienced its achievements.

ATHENS 19/2/2014 THE PRESS OFFICE OF THE CC OF THE KKE

[cyu]

What overall is the political alignment of the protesters as a majority? If theoretically the protesters got their way in parliamentary politics what political acts would that bring?



If the fascists get in power, they're not going to respect any majority vote anyway. If they did get their way, there would probably be a marked increase in physical attacks against immigrants and Jewish people.

...but the money men behind the scenes funding fascist groups believe they can reign them in after the Ukrainian government has been destabilitzed. The fascists are merely being used as "shock troops" - after they serve their purpose (overthrowing the pro-Russian government), their backers hope to sideline them.

Kind of like how the money men behind the American Republican party use rank-and-file "tea partiers" and Bible-thumpers to get elected, but then generally try to ignore them as much as possible once elected, as long as they have enough of a base of support to continue to be the ruling class.

[MaximMK]

Both sides are reactionary but i still feel less keen on a openly far right nazi party coming to power. The protests are dominated with their symbol ( the hand with three fingers ) and they carry around pictures of WWII fascists. Sad that there isnt a leftist alternative strong enough.

[Sasha]

"My dear KKE" has not ties with CPU you fuckin moron, but with a small communist organisation called "Union of Communists of Ukraine (http://www.solidnet.org/ukraine-union-of-communists-of-ukraine)" you lying piece of shit. Fuck you and fuck those that "liked" your fuckin lies.


so the CPU was not a invited participant in your IMCWP in 2012 and 2011 and 2010 together with the UCU?

weird, not only the wiki says so here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Meeting_of_Communist_and_Workers%27_ Parties

so does your own frigging website;

http://www.solidnet.org/14-international-meeting-of-communist-workers/14-imcwp-parties-participated-en

right back at ya... :rolleyes:

[Sasha]

and hey, in last november (the 2013 congress) neither are listed as participants admittedly but lo and behold, the UPC–CPSU was, and remind me again, which ukranian communist party is the second most important member of the UPC–CPSU?

i'll give you a hint, its not the UCU...

so who is lying here? :rolleyes:

[Delenda Carthago]

so the CPU was not a invited participant in your IMCWP in 2012 and 2011 and 2010 together with the UCU?

weird, not only the wiki says so here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Meeting_of_Communist_and_Workers%27_ Parties

so does your own frigging website;

http://www.solidnet.org/14-international-meeting-of-communist-workers/14-imcwp-parties-participated-en

right back at ya... :rolleyes:
Ooooh. IMCWP is the "ties"? Well then, KKE has way worse parties to care about than CPU.:lol::lol::lol:


But, for anyone that has even a vague connection to reality knows two things.

A. IMCWP is a totaly loose meeting in which participate from eurocommunists and revisionists to godamn Workers Party of North Korea. Prety much, the majority of anyone still left considered a communist massive(or not so) organisation.

In fact, KKE is steering thing up in that shithole creating buzz to the reformists inner peace.
http://inter.kke.gr/en/articles/On-the-15th-International-Meeting-of-Communist-and-Workers-Parties-in-Lisbon/

That has lead to the point that the reformist majority of the meeting to denounce KKE as "ultraleftist" and "sectarian".
http://www.peoplesworld.org/world-communist-parties-debate-strategy-for-the-road-ahead#PageComment_230247



Which leads us to...

B. KKE has created a more closed meeting, for parties that are more close to its perceptions.
http://www.initiative-cwpe.org/

Still, this is not a new International yet, the parties have not come to a 100% agreement, but its something that is working on that direction. On this one, CPU is not participating. The other ukrainian guys are.




So... if you want to judge KKE and you want to have a serious discusion about it, do it based on what the party says and/or what the really close organisations of it say. Not what it suits well your intentions.

[Sasha]

Ooooh. IMCWP is the "ties"? Well then, KKE has way worse parties to care about than CPU.:lol::lol::lol:

yes they do, thats hardly dispelling my point now is it?
what self respecting communist party proudly displays their internationale on their website, publishes joint statements, is instrumental in the organisation of the congresses etc etc with parties like the north-koreans and the CPRF (and the dutch SP :-) )? the KKE is just another relic of bankrupt counter-revolutionary reactionary crap just like all your bedfellows.
considering how aggressively sectarian the KKE is towards to other (actual?) leftist groups its all rather telling

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

the KKE is just another relic of bankrupt counter-revolutionary reactionary crap just like all your bedfellows.
considering how aggressively sectarian the KKE is towards to other (actual?) leftist groups its all rather telling

You mean like Syriza? The social dem group that recently became bed buddies with a "moderate" fash group in parliament?

[Delenda Carthago]

I say




A. IMCWP is a totaly loose meeting in which participate from eurocommunists and revisionists to godamn Workers Party of North Korea. Prety much, the majority of anyone still left considered a communist massive(or not so) organisation.

In fact, KKE is steering thing up in that shithole creating buzz to the reformists inner peace.
http://inter.kke.gr/en/articles/On-the-15th-International-Meeting-of-Communist-and-Workers-Parties-in-Lisbon/

That has lead to the point that the reformist majority of the meeting to denounce KKE as "ultraleftist" and "sectarian".
http://www.peoplesworld.org/world-communist-parties-debate-strategy-for-the-road-ahead#PageComment_230247



Which leads us to...

B. KKE has created a more closed meeting, for parties that are more close to its perceptions.
http://www.initiative-cwpe.org/

Still, this is not a new International yet, the parties have not come to a 100% agreement, but its something that is working on that direction. On this one, CPU is not participating. The other ukrainian guys are.






He replies


what self respecting communist party proudly displays their internationale on their website, publishes joint statements, is instrumental in the organisation of the congresses etc etc with parties like the north-koreans and the CPRF (and the dutch SP :-) )? the KKE is just another relic of bankrupt counter-revolutionary reactionary crap just like all your bedfellows.



Logic is commiting suicide right about now.

[Delenda Carthago]

And btw, lets see all these parties, what do they think about KKE?



The Communist Party of Greece appears to be falling into the same trap as the Left-Wing communists in Lenin's time, particularly those in Germany and Britain.

Because of the gross errors and ultimate failure an uncompromising, purist approach generates, Lenin wrote a significant pamphlet on this.
It is titled "Left-Wing Communism, an Infantile Disorder" where he points out the absurdity of a "no compromises" position and specifically recommends working within existing systems and governments to advance our goals.

What he replies


the KKE is just another relic of bankrupt counter-revolutionary reactionary crap just like all your bedfellows


Is it clear the level of the lying we are dealing here?

[ckaihatsu]

Political Changes Come Fast, Furious in Ukraine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw0VdZ79-Yk


Ukraine President Promises Early Elections

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iYIjhag1GI


Deadly Day of Violence in Kiev

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoWvuBbUFvM


Ukraine MPs vote for release of ex-PM Tymoshenko, return to 2004 constitution

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FsHOp0eWHo


Rada Riot: Massive brawl erupts in Ukraine parliament amid Kiev crisis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8SpihSawM0


Celente: America's overt actions destabilizing Ukraine as never before

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjCh2kiWHoQ


World powers deeply involved in the Ukrainian crisis

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPfsq69PuI8


US and Europe impose sanctions against Ukraine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jfCCbLpTDU


Deadliest day in Ukraine protests yet, despite truce

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5jOY-ruwsY


Ukraine President Reportedly Agrees to Election Deal

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1n5xAA1M1f8


Peace deal brings Maidan protest in Kiev to an end

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSKOh9O9pBs


Police defectors welcomed to Independence Square in Kyiv

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hBK1R7NykU


Armed police expelled from Ukrainian parliament

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB7XdXAXwNg


Ukraine: Yanukovych reaches deal to end crisis, France urges caution

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOxXEwwPig8


EU approves Ukrainian sanctions

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1n3qydraxI


Ukraine protest: How long will the truce last? BBC News

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk6nz-HjK8g


Ukraine protests: Fight breaks out between politicians in parliament

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN5Vv2ltATA

[Ele'ill]

Marie3L, I'm a little confused. Were those government men clearing the street? Looks like they had emblems on their shoulders.

Don't know for sure but I think they were the lightly armored/free uniforms of police that people had stripped off them after beating them unconscious. I thought I saw some cop riot helmets and other assorted gear and there are plenty of videos showing it happen.

[Ele'ill]

Here is some more footage of the shootings during the clashes

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=58b_1392877307

[Os Cangaceiros]

This is one of the more impressive sustained street movements I've seen since 2011, even if the politics of it are all messed up. Especially the construction of the barricades, they've been out-barricading the Turks and back in the summer of 2013 they were building some pretty good ones in Istanbul. Really impressive.

[sanpal]

The Russian nazis left to Kiev to adopt Maidan experience (got from the Russian mass media). I think US/West imperialists will play the same scenario in Moscow as it was in Kiev, staking on nazis as the most trained for street fights.

[Left-Wing Nutjob]

From what I have read and been hearing, the single strongest identifiable faction in these protests are one or two steps removed from fascists, if that.

Of course, the Western liberals would have you believe that these protests are about freedom and democracy against the big, bad, corrupt Russians.