Was the Soviet Union (USSR) Socialist?

[Marshal of the People]

Was the Soviet Union socialist, communist or as I thought state-capitalist?

I always thought that the Soviet Union was state capitalist because the Soviet government profited of it's workers labour (just like in capitalism only the state replaced the private owners), so could someone please answer this:).

Definition of Socialism:
(Economics) an economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively, usually through the state. It is characterised by production for use rather than profit, by equality of individual wealth, by the absence of competitive economic activity, and, usually, by government determination of investment, prices, and production levels.

Definition of Communism:
The advocacy of a moneyless, stateless and classless society in which private ownership has been abolished and the means of production and subsistence belong to the community as a whole.

Definition of State Capitalism:
A form of capitalism in which the state owns or controls most of the means of production and other capital, often very similar to state socialism

[Art Vandelay]

There are currently at least 2 threads in theory dealing with this topic, I think reading them as opposed to starting a new thread, would be better. Also I just want to point out that your opinion on the class character of the USSR shouldn't come from forum debates, but rather from your own political reading.

[Marshal of the People]

There are currently at least 2 threads in theory dealing with thus topic, I think reading them as opposed to starting a new thread, would be better. Also I just want to point out that your opinion on the class character of the USSR shouldn't come from forum debates, but rather individual political research.

I have researched the topic but okay.

Links please.

[Art Vandelay]

I have researched the topic but okay.

Links please.

I'm on my phone at work so I can't drop links, but I can tonight when Im off. I'd suggest starting off with 'the revolution betrayed' but its only a personal opinion.

[Marshal of the People]

I'm on my phone at work so I can't drop links, but I can tonight when Im off. I'd suggest starting off with 'the revolution betrayed' but its only a personal opinion.

Okay thanks, sorry, I shall try to find them myself.

EDIT: I just discovered the search function and have found two, but thanks anyway. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/member.php?u=37976)

[Art Vandelay]

Okay thanks, sorry, I shall try to find them myself.

Well if you can wait a couple hours, I'd be more than willing to point you in the direction of online sources, detailing the various theories on the class nature of the USSR, just cant from my phone.

[Marshal of the People]

Well if you can wait a couple hours, I'd be more than willing to point you in the direction of online sources, detailing the various theories on the class nature of the USSR, just cant from my phone.

Okay thank you.

[Art Vandelay]

https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1936/revbet/index.htm

http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1955/statecap/

http://libcom.org/library/what-was-the-ussr-aufheben-1

http://vimeo.com/29505740

Hope that helps.

[Remus Bleys]

"Socialism means the abolition of classes." ~ Lenin
Source. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1919/oct/30.htm)
Judging by how Stalin admitted the USSR had classes, I'd say it's really easy to understand the answer is no.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

After the Russian Civil War/Revolution, the newly founded CCCP was Marxist-Leninist (of course), and of course under Stalin's rule it was Stalinist. After that the CCCP became State-Capitalist with just a bunch of puppet leaders.

[Remus Bleys]

After the Russian Civil War/Revolution, the newly founded CCCP was Marxist-Leninist (of course), and of course under Stalin's rule it was Stalinist. After that the CCCP became State-Capitalist with just a bunch of puppet leaders.
1. ML = Stalinism
2. Great Man of History theory.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

1. ML = Stalinism
2. Great Man of History theory.

Yes but by definition Marxist-Leninism isn't exactly the same as Stalinism.
By definition Marxist-Leninism means to be a follower of Marx and Lenin, and by definition Stalinism means to follow Stalin. Not to mention history is a touchy subject and many people side with Lenin and hate Stalin, but they can technically still be Marxist-Leninist.

[Remus Bleys]

Yes but by definition Marxist-Leninism isn't exactly the same as Stalinism.
By definition Marxist-Leninism means to be a follower of Marx and Lenin, and by definition Stalinism means to follow Stalin. Not to mention history is a touchy subject and many people side with Lenin and hate Stalin, but they can technically still be Marxist-Leninist.
See the section entitled "Marxism-Leninism" (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/m/a.htm)
You are wrong. One who claims one's line is with marx and lenin are called leninist, stalinists (ml), or trotskyist.

[Logical seal]

No it wasent

What happended wuz, After the shit started to calm down in the USSR stalin got power, And he and the rest of the nomenklatura got a whole shitload of private pools, money, nice houses.

while the real working people fucking starved, and everyone who said fuck to stalin ended up dead in a grave, and labeled *counter-revoulionary*

a whole lot of bullshit

The USSR was fucked the moment stalin got it, Theres not much to diffrentate the USSR from modern-day china.

Becuse of the soviet pricks, Socialism in the eastern areas is serverly low.

[Remus Bleys]

No it wasentAgreed


What happended wuz, After the shit started to calm down in the USSR
What shit? Calmed down?

stalin got power, And he and the rest of the nomenklatura got a whole shitload of private pools, money, nice houses.
So? This is basically the caviar attack and its really dumb.


while the real working people fucking starved, and everyone who said fuck to stalin ended up dead in a grave, and labeled *counter-revoulionary*
yeah

a whole lot of bullshit

wow
very analysis
much nuance

The USSR was fucked the moment stalin got it,
Stalin helped create the USSR...

Theres not much to diffrentate the USSR from modern-day china.What about Maoist China? Why differentiate between Dengist and Maoist?


Becuse of the soviet pricks, Socialism in the eastern areas is serverly low.
As compared to...?

[Evo2]

It aspired to be socialist, and socialist's tried their best to make it socialist

However the failure of the socialist revolution to spread, coupled with the damage and extreme circumstances wrought by WW1 and the war of intervention (as well as Russia being feudalistic and not having developed the economic base needed for socialism, unlike Britain and Germany) meant that it fell into a deformed state, not yet capitalist but not yet socialist.

A system where an ideal was upheld and a new social caste emerged, interested more in their own political survival than any real attempt at socialism.

The USSR was the workers first attempt at Socialism, sadly material conditions conspired against it after the failed uprising in Germany.

[Logical seal]

Well rem

Stalin did help creact it, but he was a subordinate to lenin and the rest of the actual communists, He wasent in a top dog postion which got near the end of the russian civil war

Also the diffrence beetween mao and deng, Was dat mao wasent letting small time buissness-fucks do der shit and just the top party guys got the luxury.

Wheres during the deng area, Small-medium buissness occured and most of the brutel shit disapeared, Doesent mean there not corrupt.

[Remus Bleys]

Stalin did help creact it, but he was a subordinate to lenin and the rest of the actual communists, He wasent in a top dog postion which got near the end of the russian civil war But you see, Stalin didn't make or break the soviet system. That's great man of history theory right there.


Also the diffrence beetween mao and deng, Was dat mao wasent letting small time buissness-fucks do der shit and just the top party guys got the luxury.

Wheres during the deng area, Small-medium buissness occured and most of the brutel shit disapeared, Doesent mean there not corrupt.
You uphold Mao but no Stalin?

[Prometeo liberado]

Hands down the worse thread I've ever read. I get it you hate Stalin. I just wonder if it's all theory with you people? Deng was this but Mao did this 'cus Stalin did this.....blah..blah..blah. Christ, I can't stand the PSL but at least they're attempting to put theory into action.
The OP asks about socialism in the former USSR and instead we get nonsense hair splitting, Deng versus Mao and a regurgitation of the always popular "..that murderer Stalin!!!". Exhausting.

[servusmoderni]

There's technically 10 main objectives in the Communist Manifesto:



Abolition of property of land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. DONE!
A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. DONE!
Abolition of all right of inheritance. DONE!
Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. DONE!
Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. DONE!
Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. DONE!
Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. DONE!
Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. DONE!
Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country. DONE!
Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form and combination of education with industrial production. DONE!




All objectives were completed. And leave us alone with Stalin! The birth rate went up to a million babies a year while he was leading the Soviet Union. Birth rate is the most effective way to see if people are happy with their life in general.

[servusmoderni]

Hands down the worse thread I've ever read. I get it you hate Stalin. I just wonder if it's all theory with you people? Deng was this but Mao did this 'cus Stalin did this.....blah..blah..blah. Christ, I can't stand the PSL but at least they're attempting to put theory into action.
The OP asks about socialism in the former USSR and instead we get nonsense hair splitting, Deng versus Mao and a regurgitation of the always popular "..that murderer Stalin!!!". Exhausting.

Thank God, Sanity. You've arrived!

[Remus Bleys]

There's technically 10 main objectives in the Communist Manifesto:



Abolition of property of land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. DONE!
A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. DONE!
Abolition of all right of inheritance. DONE!
Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. DONE!
Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. DONE!
Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. DONE!
Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. DONE!
Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. DONE!
Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country. DONE!
Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form and combination of education with industrial production. DONE!




All objectives were completed. And leave us alone with Stalin! The birth rate went up to a million babies a year while he was leading the Soviet Union. Birth rate is the most effective way to see if people are happy with their life in general. Jesus Christ. In the 1871 preface, Marx said that the demands were no longer valid.
I mean what the hell?

[Marshal of the People]

There's technically 10 main objectives in the Communist Manifesto:



Abolition of property of land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. DONE!
A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. DONE!
Abolition of all right of inheritance. DONE!
Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. DONE!
Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. DONE!
Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. DONE!
Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. DONE!
Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. DONE!
Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country. DONE!
Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form and combination of education with industrial production. DONE!




All objectives were completed. And leave us alone with Stalin! The birth rate went up to a million babies a year while he was leading the Soviet Union. Birth rate is the most effective way to see if people are happy with their life in general.

Thanks, I think...

[servusmoderni]

Jesus Christ. In the 1871 preface, Marx said that the demands were no longer valid.
I mean what the hell?

He also said the manifesto is a historical document that shouldn't be altered.

[Remus Bleys]

He also said the manifesto is a historical document that shouldn't be altered.
Caj made this meme in response to bordigist parties, but...
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/43386370.jpg

[Niccolo]

He also said the manifesto is a historical document that shouldn't be altered.

Your spirit is very un-Marxist. Marxism is not intended to be a religion, so of course old documents should be altered and adapted to the changing material conditions and logic of capitalism. Capitalism is an evolving system and Marxism is used to analyse it.

Things are in constant flux and motion and although Marx got some things right in terms of predictions, there were some things he could not predict. Treating original Marxist texts as gospel makes no sense whatsoever. Those texts should serve as a compass, not as religious narrative.

[Niccolo]

Oh and I would strongly read the 1872 German edition preface if I was you:

[quote=Marx & Engels]However much that state of things may have altered during the last twenty-five years, the general principles laid down in the Manifesto are, on the whole, as correct today as ever. Here and there, some detail might be improved. The practical application of the principles will depend, as the Manifesto itself states, everywhere and at all times, on the historical conditions for the time being existing]

[RedMaterialist]

Jesus Christ. In the 1871 preface, Marx said that the demands were no longer valid.
I mean what the hell?

He didn't say the demands were no longer valid. He said the following:

"The practical application of the principles will depend, as the Manifesto itself states, everywhere and at all times, on the historical conditions for the time being existing, and, for that reason, no special stress is laid on the revolutionary measures proposed at the end of Section II. That passage would, in many respects, be very differently worded today."

Marx might have been surprised, however, at how many of the demands were achieved in the Soviet Union, as well as how the Bolsheviks did not just lay their hands on the existing Russian state, but destroyed it and replaced it with their own state.

[reb]

The problem you are having is with this thing called "socialism". Stalinism relies on this revision of marxism to be able to justify itself. They insert this new thing called "socialism" which is in contradiction to the marxian conception of everything, from the understanding of capital, to revolution, to class, etc. It's a very bourgeois notion of socialism.

The bottom line is that capitalist relations were not overcome in the soviet union at any period, despite a proletarian revolution, and what came next has been described as state-capitalism by other marxists and basically anyone else who isn't a supporter of bourgeois economics. Stalinists just call this state-capitalism socialism, and trots call it a workers state.


Hands down the worse thread I've ever read. I get it you hate Stalin. I just wonder if it's all theory with you people? Deng was this but Mao did this 'cus Stalin did this.....blah..blah..blah. Christ, I can't stand the PSL but at least they're attempting to put theory into action.
The OP asks about socialism in the former USSR and instead we get nonsense hair splitting, Deng versus Mao and a regurgitation of the always popular "..that murderer Stalin!!!". Exhausting.

Wow, such a great contribution to the thread. Do you have any politics apart from just supporting the USSR cause I'm really struggling to find anything in your posting history.


There's technically 10 main objectives in the Communist Manifesto:



Abolition of property of land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. DONE!
A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. DONE!
Abolition of all right of inheritance. DONE!
Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. DONE!
Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. DONE!
Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. DONE!
Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. DONE!
Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. DONE!
Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country. DONE!
Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form and combination of education with industrial production. DONE!




All objectives were completed. And leave us alone with Stalin! The birth rate went up to a million babies a year while he was leading the Soviet Union. Birth rate is the most effective way to see if people are happy with their life in general.

At first I thought you were being sarcastic, which would have been a funny but not really informative joke. But this has been answered already, these went out of date in Marx's life time.

EDIT: I should also point out that none of those demands actually entail the end of capitalism. And most of them were only in operation in the soviet union on paper only, and even saying that would be being generous. Such as the idea that education was free to everyone. It plainly wasn't. You had to pay for higher education and it was mostly the children of party bureaucrats who managed to get into it. Education was free in about the same way that education in other social-democratic countries were free.

[Brutus]

There's technically 10 main objectives in the Communist Manifesto:



Abolition of property of land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. DONE!
A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. DONE!
Abolition of all right of inheritance. DONE!
Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. DONE!
Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. DONE!
Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. DONE!
Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. DONE!
Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. DONE!
Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of the population over the country. DONE!
Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form and combination of education with industrial production. DONE!




All objectives were completed. And leave us alone with Stalin! The birth rate went up to a million babies a year while he was leading the Soviet Union. Birth rate is the most effective way to see if people are happy with their life in general.

They we're demands Marx and Engels thought would improve capitalism...

[spiritof56]

The USSR was social-democracy writ large. It essentially had to develop capitalism within itself, but tried to use that capitalism to the workers benefit. Turns out its basically impossible to do, and ended up developing all sorts of weirdness (labor discipline, economic stagnation, mutated property forms etc.) because of it and it eventually led to its collapse