The Pope calls a capitalism a "new tyranny". [Archive]

Fourth Internationalist

28th November 2013, 21:24

This isn't the first time the Church has been against capitalism. Back in late feudal times, the Church considered merchanting and the other early developments of capitalism as sinful. It seems as if God can't make up his mind.

EDIT: For all those who are happy at this, I would consider not being so happy. For one, he isn't against capitalism. He really just wants to fight for regulations, as demonstrated by this quote: "As long as the problems of the poor are not radically resolved by rejecting the absolute autonomy of markets and financial speculation, and by attacking the structural causes of inequality, no solution will be found for the world's problems or, for that matter, to any problems". This sounds like "anti-corporatist" and "against crony-capitalism" liberal talk. In fact, one of the articles says he's fighting against "corrupt" capitalism. He wants capitalism without the consequences that accompany it, which all Marxists know is an impossibility. Second, let's assume he is vehemently anti-capitalist and wants a socialist system. How does he expect to get there? "I beg the Lord to grant us more politicians who are genuinely disturbed by the state of society, the people, the lives of the poor." Well, even if he is anti-capitalist, he is totally counter-revolutionary in that he wants socialism without workers' revolution. Instead, he expects politicians and bureaucrats to bring us these "socialist" changes. In summary, there isn't any good news that the revolutionary left can expect from the Vatican.

Sabot Cat

29th November 2013, 06:15

If we had a Pope that favored the abolition of the capitalist mode of production through revolution with support from his fellow clergymen, it would be a truly interesting scenario. On one hand, you would have large groups of people the world over, especially workers in the developing world, who would finally and suddenly have class consciousness, on a global scale. World revolution would really be within our grasp. On the other hand, you would have one of the most reactionary institutions in the world positioning itself as a sort of vanguard party. It would be kind of strange at least, and a possible tactic the Catholic Church for them to do in response to a populace hungry for justice in the realm of resource distribution and labor valuation, so that the world revolution won't bring about more radical changes like complete women's liberation or freedom from all religions.

Glitchcraft

29th November 2013, 08:55

The Pope and Kshama Sawant should run for president. It would be like Bizzaro McCain and Palin.

tuwix

29th November 2013, 10:43

For one, he isn't against capitalism. He really just wants to fight for regulations, as demonstrated by this quote: "As long as the problems of the poor are not radically resolved by rejecting the absolute autonomy of markets and financial speculation, and by attacking the structural causes of inequality, no solution will be found for the world's problems or, for that matter, to any problems".

And what is a structural problem of inequality?

It's (private) property. And there can't be capitalism without property.

Yes, he's against capitalism.

Brutus

29th November 2013, 11:30

He said "unfettered capitalism"...
The pope appears to be a social-democrat at best. This seems to be similar to the Chavez situation- he's change we can believe in.

DDR

29th November 2013, 12:13

Seeing this, and the "discovery" of a painting with nun priests, I would like to think that maybe for the Midnight Mass or the Urbi et Orbe blessing he will make posible for women to be ordained as priest. But maybe I'm too optimistic.

Hang around the powerful Opus Dei people and you won't be so excited. Words have still not matched deeds with these people. The Catholic Worker movement within the church is still marginalized and LGBTQ rights are nonexistent. Putin's government or the Catholic Church? One pig looks just like the other.

The Opus is in the loosing end of this fight, at least right now. Here in Spain the have lots of power, both in goverment (5 goverment ministers are from the Opus or close to them, the most fanatical the Minister of Interior (homeland security)) and in the Church. The Church hierarchy in Spain is propably one of the most reactionary and militant but they're now traying to chage it's ways (political make-up more than anything), they have chage the whole episcopal conference, even thay have a female speaker, in accordance to the new Roman management.. So seeing this changes, I think they're loosing right now the fight for power, at least in Rome, which I think it will make them to take a low profile for the time being.

reb

29th November 2013, 12:37

Pretty funny that a bunch of communists are saying that this will raise class consciousness. No wonder that social-democrats are all over this.

Igor

29th November 2013, 13:03

This Pope is a Franciscan, and order which focuses on helping the poor as well as owning little to no personal possessions. He defiantly has less pomp and grandeur that most Popes care to maintain.

the pope's named francis but he's not franciscan - he's a jesuit.

Fourth Internationalist

29th November 2013, 13:27

And what is a structural problem of inequality?

It's (private) property. And there can't be capitalism without property.

Yes, he's against capitalism.

"Corruption" is this structure of inequality he has referred to, not capitalism as a whole. You're assuming here that he shares your view on the source of inequality. Liberals, like the Pope, don't think capitalism is the source of inequality. Rather, the problem is with "crony capitalism". He doesn't clarify what he defines this structure as, but one can imply from the rest of his quotes that it is nothing revolutionary.

The Feral Underclass

29th November 2013, 13:46

I find it interesting how left-wing people can be so naive. The only thing this pope is good at is photo opportunities and rousing rhetoric. He remains a former Peronist, committed homophobe and traditional Vatacanist.

Remus Bleys

29th November 2013, 19:03

The catholic church seems to have given up on some sort of feudal socialism in favor of bourgeois socialism, which is to be expected.
There are some really cool left currents in it, but its nowhere near at the top.

Oenomaus

29th November 2013, 19:14

The Pope and Kshama Sawant should run for president. It would be like Bizzaro McCain and Palin.

Slow down, mate, you'll make the workers dizzy with success.

Also, token radical rhetoric from the Catholic Church is hardly new. Hell, this is below the level of Hilary Belloc and his "distributist" dreams, or a bourgeois Catholic socialists like Peguy - but hell, if people think "socialism" means "worker-managed enterprises", I'm really not surprised they're lapping this up.

Also gay people and women, but who cares, right?

La Comédie Noire

29th November 2013, 19:39

I'd have to agree with the majority of posters in this thread. From time to time, whether from shallow political opportunism or sincere belief in tradition, the Catholic church will bring back the spirit of the early church and actually try to adjust their practices to the Gospel.

It should be remembered that they hate modernism and see even Bourgeois Republicanism as a compromise. However, the attitudes of the Catholic church are a good way to measure the minimum level of progress in society as they are usually 3 or 4 decades behind everybody else.

LOLseph Stalin

30th November 2013, 08:46

It would be a bit far to call him a socialist, but the pope making such statements could really open up potential to win over Catholics. Like if such statements are coming from their spiritual leader then things like Marxism will seem much more accessible since it talks about the exact same stuff. With that said, I think this is something we should embrace and take advantage of instead of just tossing it off as populism or liberalism.

Also, I think it's worth noting that Pope Francis has also made comments essentially condemning the Catholic Church's anti-LGBT stances. Same with atheism too. Even his stances on issues that the Catholic church traditionally takes a regressive stance on have been fairly progressive. At least progressive from a religion's point of view.

The Feral Underclass

30th November 2013, 08:50

It would be a bit far to call him a socialist

That's because he's not.

but the pope making such statements could really open up potential to win over Catholics.

Win them over to what?

Flying Purple People Eater

30th November 2013, 09:47

Win them over to what?

Leftist politics?

I mean no love for the junta loving Pope, but considering how the church has been an ultra-right shill with ultra-right rhetoric, calling stories of Pinochet's massacres and mass arrests from Chile (which where overwhelmingly confirmed to be true) 'communist propaganda', calling Marxism lots of nasty names after the previous Pope's trip to Cuba, and how out of the blue this new guy has suddenly given a speech about the problems with capitalism - I'm shocked.

I mean, they're rich reactionary arseholes, but even to me, that's an insane political development. This guy is politically miles away from Benedict, who was the center of the Catholic world until a year ago.

The Feral Underclass

30th November 2013, 10:06

Leftist politics?

Believing that Pope Francis will help convert people to left-wing politics is as offensive as it is preposterous, especially when you consider the fact he's a right-wing, misogynistic homophobe!

I mean no love for the junta loving Pope, but considering how the church has been an ultra-right shill with ultra-right rhetoric, calling stories of Pinochet's massacres and mass arrests from Chile (which where overwhelmingly confirmed to be true) 'communist propaganda', calling Marxism lots of nasty names after the previous Pope's trip to Cuba, and how out of the blue this new guy has suddenly given a speech about the problems with capitalism - I'm shocked.

And you think because he has slightly altered his rhetoric the Catholic Church has suddenly changed all their positions on these things?

I mean, they're rich reactionary arseholes, but even to me, that's an insane political development. This guy is politically miles away from Benedict, who was the center of the Catholic world until a year ago.

It's not "political development," it's political expedience. It's the same real-politik that all political appointees embark on when trying to cultivate a specific image. He's no different to any bourgeois politician.

Superficially he may appear more relaxed, but in reality the content is exactly the same as it has always been.

his guy is politically miles away from Benedict

No he's not. He's changed absolutely no position of the Church and he has no intention of doing so. It is the same Catholic Church as it was under Benedict.

The Feral Underclass

30th November 2013, 10:08

As so-called revolutionaries, you need to become a little more critical of reality and stop being fooled by bourgeois ideologues just because they suddenly say something you tacitly agree with.

Honestly, it's ridiculous.

Oenomaus

30th November 2013, 10:48

Leftist politics?

So what? Bourgeois "leftist politics" is closer to bourgeois "rightist politics" than either is to communism. And in any case, token opposition to capitalism - or evil, Jewish (well, you can't say that anymore, just like you can't outright say that gay people should be killed, so you adopt some coded language that bourgeois liberals lap up) finance capitalism - has been a part of reactionary ideology from at least Donoso Cortes. That is why I loathe the term "anti-capitalist" and the sentiment that all "anti-capitalists" are the same - one can oppose capitalism from the right as well as from the left, and given the alliances of some allegedly leftist "anti-capitalists", I am no longer sure they know which side is which.

I mean no love for the junta loving Pope, but considering how the church has been an ultra-right shill with ultra-right rhetoric, calling stories of Pinochet's massacres and mass arrests from Chile (which where overwhelmingly confirmed to be true) 'communist propaganda', calling Marxism lots of nasty names after the previous Pope's trip to Cuba, and how out of the blue this new guy has suddenly given a speech about the problems with capitalism - I'm shocked.

I mean, they're rich reactionary arseholes, but even to me, that's an insane political development. This guy is politically miles away from Benedict, who was the center of the Catholic world until a year ago.

He is exactly the same, the only difference being that Benedict wasn't as implicated in the workings of a fascist government. Anyway, why do people think that some token "socialist" rhetoric is some groundbreaking development? It's the same thing with Sawant - people are overjoyed that someone said something socialist and it was popular. But communist politics are not a popularity contest, the revolution is not a poll. We need class consciousness, not vague "socialist-ish" sentiment. Good grief people, you're making me agree with an anarchist, this is how fucked up this entire thing is.

Also, apparently LGBT and womens' liberation is no longer part of "leftist politics" and we should praise any reactionary old bastard that sputters some paternalistic nonsense about poverty. Well fuck leftist politics then.

The Feral Underclass

30th November 2013, 11:01

fuck leftist politics

The best thing I've ever seen written on RevLeft.

Rafiq

30th November 2013, 14:32

The church, one of the last reactionary opponents of capitalism in Europe.

The Feral Underclass

30th November 2013, 14:35

The church, one of the last reactionary opponents of capitalism in Europe.

The Catholic Church is no more an opponent of capitalism as the Green Party.

Rafiq

30th November 2013, 14:49

The Catholic Church is no more an opponent of capitalism as the Green Party.

No, the Green Party isn't reactionary. To be a reactionary and oppose capitalism is to oppose capitalism from the standpoint of the feudal ruling classes

The Feral Underclass

30th November 2013, 14:53

No, the Green Party isn't reactionary. To be a reactionary and oppose capitalism is to oppose capitalism from the standpoint of the feudal ruling classes

What the hell are you on about?

Remus Bleys

30th November 2013, 14:54

No, the Green Party isn't reactionary. To be a reactionary and oppose capitalism is to oppose capitalism from the standpoint of the feudal ruling classes

But the catholic church doesn't do that anymore. They're regular social democrats whose rhetoric is petty bourgeoisie oriented.
The green party is reactionary. They uphold capitalism.

Also, don't you think St. Paul was a bourgeois revolutionary?

Rafiq

30th November 2013, 15:36

But the catholic church doesn't do that anymore. They're regular social democrats whose rhetoric is petty bourgeoisie oriented.
The green party is reactionary. They uphold capitalism.

Also, don't you think St. Paul was a bourgeois revolutionary?

When the catholic church spews of capitalisms evils, they are not criticizing capitalism but finance capitalism and the "social decadence" it has brought, like the fascists a hundred years ago or islamists today. The bourgeoisie didn't exist until some five hundred years ago.

Remus Bleys

30th November 2013, 16:31

When the catholic church spews of capitalisms evils, they are not criticizing capitalism but finance capitalism and the "social decadence" it has brought, like the fascists a hundred years ago or islamists today. The bourgeoisie didn't exist until some five hundred years ago.

But islamists and fascists weren't feudalist, they were a bourgeois tool.
I know when the bourgeois came about, but I seem to recall someone saying paul was a bourgeois revolutionary and I thought it was you. No worries, sorry if I was wrong and it was a different poster.

nor-commie

30th November 2013, 17:45

Pope Francis is way better than pope Benedict in most ways, but still he's catholic, christian, religious.

LOLseph Stalin

30th November 2013, 18:12

That's because he's not.

Win them over to what?

Yes, leftist politics. The pope's rhetoric could help us approach Catholics. While's he's off criticizing capitalism we're offering solutions.

Taters

30th November 2013, 18:20

The Pope and Kshama Sawant should run for president. It would be like Bizzaro McCain and Palin.

Too much socialism in one post.

Remus Bleys

30th November 2013, 18:33

Too much socialism in one post.

Socialism in one Church.

servusmoderni

30th November 2013, 18:38

it's not like he sits on a fortune of about 50 billions or anything...

Per Levy

30th November 2013, 19:03

Yes, leftist politics. The pope's rhetoric could help us approach Catholics. While's he's off criticizing capitalism we're offering solutions.

are salesmen now? and is the rethoric of the pope just a helpful advertisement? and who are the catholics you want to win over, are they bourgeois, petit-bourgeois or are they workers? and how do you want to approach them? "hey wanna join my socialist/communist group/party? we are against capitalism just like the pope."

Lensky

30th November 2013, 19:11

What the hell are you on about?

you should be more respectful to someone who is about to educate you

BIXX

30th November 2013, 19:33

you should be more respectful to someone who is about to educate you

I disagree, sometimes (actually, often) people who are about to "educate" you are either dumb or complete dipshits.

However, I don't know if this is true about rafiq, my point is just that people have to earn my respect. It I just respect everyone it doesn't mean anything anymore.

The Feral Underclass

30th November 2013, 22:26

Yes, leftist politics. The pope's rhetoric could help us approach Catholics. While's he's off criticizing capitalism we're offering solutions.

The state of the left. (http://www.arrse.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=124386&d=1370078697)

RedHal

30th November 2013, 22:58

There was/is a revolutionary tradition within the Catholic sphere, it's called Liberation Theology, and this Pope opposed it and is accused of turning Liberation Theology priests over to the military junta.

reb

30th November 2013, 23:03

This thread is fucking disgusting. So much for marxism. Yeah, totally supporting an absolute monarch who doesn't say anything revolutionary will totally open up a wedge for us to inject marxism into the labor movement. Totally. Nevermind class struggle or the need for the proletariat to emancipate itself. This thread just shows the total detachment some people here have from the working class. Go out and get a job and see how much of a difference this makes.

Alexios

30th November 2013, 23:06

Yes, leftist politics. The pope's rhetoric could help us approach Catholics. While's he's off criticizing capitalism we're offering solutions.

this is really ignorant

Flying Purple People Eater

1st December 2013, 00:47

I finish a sentence that was meant to be obvious and people suddenly think I'm barracking for the church. :rolleyes:

You people have a really bad problem with overassumption.

Prometeo liberado

1st December 2013, 08:03

the pope's named francis but he's not franciscan - he's a jesuit.
It is very interesting that he is a Jesuit. The Liberation Theology movement was very much pushed forward by Jesuits. Martin Malachi wrote a very interesting book on the subject of Jesuits doing there own thing in direct opposition to the church universal. Francis may be a by product of those early struggles. The outcome, hopefully, will be a more divided, morally bankrupt and insignificant(if that's at all possible)church. Hopefully.

Red Commissar

2nd December 2013, 04:59

I believe previous Popes have made statements to the effect that "unrestrained capitalism is bad, m'kay?". This is coming more from a position of thinking it's become morally corrupt, ie money rules people and makes them do bad, ungodly things. Historically the Church always tried to present itself as being above the "excesses" of politics of the 20th century, which meant they often slammed capitalism- a product of liberal politics- as much as they did marxism and other socialist viewpoints.

Here is the last Pope, Benedict XVII, making similar statements.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/14/world/americas/14pope.html

APARECIDA, Brazil, May 13 [2007] — In a major speech on Sunday, Pope Benedict XVI condemned capitalism and Marxism as “systems that marginalize God” and urged the Latin American clergy to feed people’s spiritual hunger as the way to ease poverty and halt the Roman Catholic Church’s steady decline in the region.

Speaking to Latin American bishops here for a conference on the church’s direction for the next decade, the pope also condemned abortion and contraception and laws that permit them. Such laws, he said, are “threatening the future of peoples.”

The speech was widely anticipated for how Benedict — on his first visit as pope to the Western Hemisphere — would tackle issues from poverty and social injustice to the evangelical groups eroding Roman Catholicism in some Latin American countries at the rate of 1 percent a year.

...

“Both capitalism and Marxism promised to point out the path for the creation of just structures, and they declared that these, once established, would function by themselves,” he said. “And this ideological promise has proven false.”

Marxism, he said, left “a sad heritage of economic and ecological destruction.” Capitalism, he said, has failed to bridge the “distance between rich and poor” and is “giving rise to a worrying degradation of personal dignity through drugs, alcohol and deceptive illusions of happiness.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20882894

Pope's new year address deplores rampant capitalism

Pope Benedict XVI has condemned "unregulated capitalism" for contributing to world tension, in a new year address to worshippers.

He deplored "hotbeds of tension and conflict caused by growing instances of inequality between rich and poor".

Those "hotbeds" also grew out of "the prevalence of a selfish and individualistic mindset which also finds expression in an unregulated financial capitalism", as well as "various forms of terrorism and crime", he said.
afaik the Vatican's official position towards liberation theology remains unchanged

Sasha

4th December 2013, 18:10

intresting analysis: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/johncassidy/2013/12/pope-francis-is-no-marxist-hes-a-marian.html
tldr: to revolutionary leftists these remarks are nothing special, to the church, coming from the pope they might have a bigger impact than we think.

PigmerikanMao

4th December 2013, 23:11

As much as I dislike Unruhe, I think he basically has the right of it here. This pope isn't much different from the previous Hitler youth, except this one actually turned fellow human beings over to South America juntas (yeah, pronounced "hOOntah," I know).

VIDEO --> MRN Analysis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrEUYKeJW8A&feature=share&list=UUgr5cilTJPILaRYS7f_TkVA&index=2)

cyu

4th December 2013, 23:29

Not directly related, but for anyone interested...

http://www.newsweek.com/gays-and-seminary-145329

There will never be a gay students' group--or gay film series or gay dance--at St. John's Seminary, one of the most respected training grounds for Catholic priests in the nation. Depending on whom you ask, gay and bisexual men make up anywhere from 30 percent to 70 percent of the student body at the college and graduate levels. "I don't want people to think that in a negative way," says a 28-year-old gay alumnus, who believes all seminarians there are chaste, regardless of orientation. "It isn't like Christopher Street or West Hollywood. But some seminarians are gay, openly gay, and very loud about it."

Though they constitute just over 5 percent of the population, gay men may make up half the student body at the 76 high-school, college and graduate-level seminaries across the country. For decades Roman Catholic Church leaders have quietly reckoned with this surprising truth about seminary life. There is no rule against celibate gays as seminarians, theologians say.

People have left the seminary either in disgust because people are not keeping vows, or in alienation because they're not gay. There does exist a homosexual atmosphere or dynamic that makes heterosexual men think twice. "I think straight priests and seminarians shouldn't be whining," says the Rev. Charles Bouchard. "I just don't think it's a big deal."

As far as sexual abuse within The Church goes, I think that has less to do with gay priests and more to do with their vows of celibacy. Granted that The Church may be better served by people entirely devoted to the faith, who would abandon all other desires, including sexual ones, the fact is that the more requirements you impose, the less likely anybody can meet all the requiements. The result is that if you're trying to grow, you're definitely going to get a lot of people who are unable to meet all the requirements (which is pretty much to be expected of the general population). So if they can't meet all the requirements, and sexual activity of any kind is off limits, what is the difference between sin A and sin B if they weren't supposed to be sinning anyway?

IBleedRed

8th December 2013, 20:09

I think this is a good thing. Let me explain. The Pope's criticism of capitalism does not mean he is advocating socialism or a Marxian worldview. He remains a reactionary. BUT we are not trying to win over the Pope or the entrenched authorities of the Catholic Church. We are trying to win over working class people, and the reality is that many working class people are religious, and some are Catholic. And now, with this statement by the Pope, some of those people might be a bit more open to critiques that are critical of capitalism. Many workers are Catholics (e.g. in Latin America, as well as Latin American migrants in the United States; Irishmen; etc) and we could either approach them by insulting their beliefs, thus making them more reactionary, or in a more nuanced way that opens the door to conversation about capitalism.

I'd say this is definitely a good development. It is certainly better than if the Pope had endorsed capitalism.;)

cyu

8th December 2013, 23:56

It is certainly better than if the Pope had endorsed capitalism

http://www.reddit.com/r/AnythingGoesNews/comments/1rihzp/pope_francis_rips_capitalism_and_trickledown/cdo2mrs

"They can't have a pope actually talking like a Christian. They'll choose another Satanist"

...reminded me of http://www.churchofsatan.com/satanism-and-objectivism.php

"Objectivism, the philosophy of Ayn Rand, is an acknowledged source for some of the Satanic philosophy as outlined in The Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey... Let me conclude this brief overview by adding that Satanism has far more in common with Objectivism than with any other religion or philosophy... The writings of Ayn Rand are inspiring and powerful. If the reader has not yet experienced her power, try her novelette Anthem for a taste. You will almost certainly come back for more."

Remus Bleys

9th December 2013, 00:17

Fuck Reddit

BIXX

9th December 2013, 01:39

Fuck Reddit

Some of the anarchists there aren't too bad. I can't speak for anyone else though.

cyu

23rd August 2014, 16:04

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-28845998

Pope Francis has lifted a ban on the beatification of murdered Salvadoran Archbishop Oscar Romero.

For years, the Roman Catholic Church blocked the process because of concerns that he had Marxist ideas.

An outspoken critic of the military regime during El Salvador's bloody civil war, Archbishop Romero was shot dead while celebrating Mass in 1980.

Francis's decision flies in the face of what his two predecessors advocated.

many Catholics have been puzzled as to why a man killed for standing up for the Poor, has for so long been ignored by a Church which claims to speak for them. for many Catholics, Oscar Romero is already a saint - in practice, if not in name.

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/77025000/jpg/_77025325_funeral_afp.jpg
Romero's funeral was also attacked and dozens were killed

Romero denounced right-wing death squads and the oppression against the poor.

Left-wing rebels fought an insurgency against the US-backed right-wing government.

Some 75,000 people were killed in the civil war, which began in 1980.

Romero was killed on 24 March 1980, aged 62, after ending his sermon in the capital, San Salvador.

No-one has ever been convicted in connection with his murder.

In 2010, President Mauricio Funes - El Salvador's first left-wing leader since the end of the civil war - unveiled a mural honouring Oscar Romero at El Salvador's international airport.

The archbishop, he said, was a victim of right-wing death squads "who acted with the protection, collaboration or participation of state agents".