Enviromentalism

[Bolshevik Sickle]

Just a quick question. Are environmentalists welcome here on RevLeft?

[Stalinist Speaker]

doesn't that depend if they are right or left wing? as i know they can be both.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

doesn't that depend if they are right or left wing? as i know they can be both.

Left-wing of course. I like to call it "Green Bolshevism".

[Stalinist Speaker]

Left-wing of course. I like to call it "Green Bolshevism".

in that case yes they most likely are

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Green Bolshevism?

As in, the Bolsheviks who built all those factories and nuclear weapons and space vehicles?

[Comrade Jacob]

Of course environmentalists are welcome, you can't build socialism if the world is uninhabitable.

[hatzel]

you can't build socialism if the world is uninhabitable

But...INTERSTELLAR SOCIALISM!!!

[Remus Bleys]

But...INTERSTELLAR SOCIALISM!!!
Comrade, do not follow the Pabloite line.
Socialism in One Planet, please.

[Ele'ill]

Just a quick question. Are environmentalists welcome here on RevLeft?

yes

[Quail]

Well, it's not hard to come to anti-capitalist conclusions from an environmental perspective. Capitalism is destroying the planet. So yes, environmentalists are welcome provided of course that they're also revolutionary leftists.

[Skyhilist]

Well, it's not hard to come to anti-capitalist conclusions from an environmental perspective. Capitalism is destroying the planet. So yes, environmentalists are welcome provided of course that they're also revolutionary leftists.

If they aren't revolutionary, they aren't real environmentalists because they uphold the system that's destroying the planet.

So given that I'd say all real environmentalists are welcome :)

[WilliamGreen]

But...INTERSTELLAR SOCIALISM!!!

Haha I spit tea all over the screen Lol

[bcbm]

they uphold the system that's destroying the planet.


industrialism?

[Skyhilist]

industrialism?

No, I don't have a problem with modern technology or industries if that's what you mean.

I mean the grow-or-die nature of capitalism that inherently leads it to destroy the environment.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Environmentalism is a tool to be harnessed. Once we can free ourselves of the chains that keep us bound to this planet, we will drain it's resources and travel to new and healthier hosts.

Like a cancer, humanity will spread throughout the universe, devouring all that lie in their wake.

[Dagoth Ur]

Green Bolshevism?

As in, the Bolsheviks who built all those factories and nuclear weapons and space vehicles?
Because industry is dumb, nuclear power "isn't" safer for the environment than basically every other energy source, and space is for monsters who hate our dear little blue-green pearl. /eyeroll

Bolsheviks were the only group to ever come even close to ending capitalism. Unlike all the ultraleftists who bemoan them.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Green Bolshevism?

As in, the Bolsheviks who built all those factories and nuclear weapons and space vehicles?

I'm curious as to why you feel space vehicles are worth mentioning in this context given that

A) construction and deployment of space vehicles represents an insignificant proportion of industrial activity even during the height of the Space Race and

B) It is thanks to data gathered by satellites and other space vehicles that we have a clearer picture of things like climate change and deforestation, than we would have had in the absence of such things. And it's not just observations of the Earth that are valuable in this way - by gathering data from other planets in the Solar system, we can more accurately account for solar flux in climate models of the Earth. By observing various phenomena on other planets, we gain more insight into similar processes occurring on Earth.

This is aside from the fact that Soviet (later Russian) participation in the Space Race has laid the foundations for further forays into the rest of the Solar system, providing a wealth of both data and practical experience (the record (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spaceflight_records#Ten_longest_human_spac e_flights) for the longest spaceflight is held by a Russian) that will be invaluable if we are to ever take further steps towards the stars.

Spaceflight is one of greatest achievements of the human species, up there along with vaccines and municipal sanitation. It has the potential to be greater still, and to serve the interests of the vast body of humanity as well, if we could only get our act together as a global civilisation. Which is why I consider such snide sneering to be unbecoming of anyone who wants humanity to do better than it does now.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Because industry is dumb, nuclear power "isn't" safer for the environment than basically every other energy source, and space is for monsters who hate our dear little blue-green pearl. /eyeroll

Bolsheviks were the only group to ever come even close to ending capitalism. Unlike all the ultraleftists who bemoan them.

I love how people seem to start tendency wars over the slightest things on this forums.

The USSR was ridiculously environmentally destructive and that fact is undeniable. There's no 'this tendency is better than this tendency' flexing going on here.

I mean, due to historical Soviet influence, one of the world's only inland seas no longer exists (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea).

[Dagoth Ur]

Every capitalist country was worse. The USSR was the closest to ending capitalist environmental destruction. And really compare USSR industrial pollution to 1890's American pollution. It's all about context.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Every capitalist country was worse. The USSR was the closest to ending capitalist environmental destruction. And really compare USSR industrial pollution to 1890's American pollution. It's all about context.

Ah, yes, mass monocropping cotton for export, a sure strategy for smashing capitalist environmental destruction. :rolleyes:

I mean, I get the kneejerk need to defend the Soviet Union, but couldn't you have at least used something true? Like, I don't know, vacations?

Man, I wish I had Soviet-style vacations.

[Dagoth Ur]

The objective facts of the situation is that the USSR was the closest to abolishing capitalism, which by default makes them the most environmentalist (as the long term socialist system cannot be anything but more efficient). The capitalist countries only played enviro-friendly to win a political battle against the USSR. As soon as it exited the stage every single environmental gain in western countries has been dialed back or outright repealed.

Also it's not a kneejerk, it's a stated position. I'm a Marcyite. The USSR deserves full and uncritical support, at least until we build something better.

[bcbm]

haha who are these people

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The USSR deserves full and uncritical support, at least until we build something better.

You DO know it doesn't exist anymore, right? You literally want to flog a dead corpse.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Every capitalist country was worse. The USSR was the closest to ending capitalist environmental destruction. And really compare USSR industrial pollution to 1890's American pollution. It's all about context.

Environmental pollution was far worse in the 20th century than it was at any other point in history, including the 19th century.

Wrong again, tankie.

[La Comédie Noire]

Socialism and Capitalism were economic systems that treated ecology as an externality. Of course, we now know this is not the case.

Welcome to Revleft.

[goalkeeper]

Unfortunately, yes they are welcome.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

I'd call myself an environmentalist of one stripe or another, yes. Probably not a very good one, but I try my best.

[goalkeeper]

The objective facts of the situation is that the USSR was the closest to abolishing capitalism, which by default makes them the most environmentalist (as the long term socialist system cannot be anything but more efficient). The capitalist countries only played enviro-friendly to win a political battle against the USSR. As soon as it exited the stage every single environmental gain in western countries has been dialed back or outright repealed.

Also it's not a kneejerk, it's a stated position. I'm a Marcyite. The USSR deserves full and uncritical support, at least until we build something better.

haha u stalinists sure are efficient at creating laughs. (Also death and repression, which is less fun)