Sweden Socialism?

[RedGuevara]

I understand very little as to why people call Sweden Socialist? I heard it said in school and my non-leftist friend called Sweden a Socialist state. I tried arguing against that and realized I know nothing about Sweden in regards to it's apparent "socialism".

Why do people say Sweden was a Socialist state?

[Sabot Cat]

In the Scandinavian nations, there's higher rates of taxation and more state collectivization of national assets than any other bourgeois democracy; these means are often guided by goals shared by socialists (e.g. universal education, healthcare, public pensions, etc.) Most of their workforce is also unionized or employed by the state, and for these reasons, many outsiders perceive them to be waving at least a pink flag.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Because America is a right-wing politically isolated country, meaning many people think that anything even remotely to the left of the rightist duopoly that currently controls the country is socialism.

Hell, I think some libertarians even believe that America is socialist. :rolleyes:


these means are often guided by goals shared by socialists (e.g. universal education, healthcare, public pension, etc.)

How are any of these political talking points relevant to socialism as an economic system?

[Sabot Cat]

How are any of these political talking points relevant to socialism as an economic system?

They're things that most socialists as people would often like a society to have; note that I didn't say that socialism necessarily features these things. Karl Marx would be one example of a person who had universal education and a heavy progressive tax rate as immediate goals.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

I would say Sweden falls under the category of Market Socialist, Mixed Economy, or Capitalist Socialist.

[argeiphontes]

I would say Sweden falls under the category of Market Socialist, Mixed Economy, or Capitalist Socialist.

Sweden isn't market socialist. It's a well-developed capitalist welfare state. Socialism always means changing the relations of production and ownership, which hasn't been done in Sweden. It doesn't have anything to do with redistribution of income or public programs that help the poor and working classes.

[#FF0000]

I would say Sweden falls under the category of Market Socialist, Mixed Economy, or Capitalist Socialist.

Market socialism and mixed economies are very different. "Capitalist socialist" is a totally made up phrase which is meaningless.

Don't take this the wrong way but I strongly urge you to look into your politics a little more. I don't think you very often have a clear idea of what you're talking about.

[Radio Spartacus]

As an addendum to the previous post by #FF0000

If you want to know what market socialism actually entails, try looking into David Schweickart's After Capitalism. Don't bother reading the whole thing unless you're really into market socialism for some reason, but it outlines it. (The whole thing is bunk in my opinion.)

As for a mixed economy, both the United States and Sweden are mixed economies. I know it seems like they're different on the surface, but they have the same mode of production. The state just happens to be more involved in Sweden's capitalism than in the US.

And yes, capitalist socialism isn't really a thing.

[Esoteric]

It's a mixed economy. Social democracy can be a beautiful thing.

[tuwix]

I understand very little as to why people call Sweden Socialist? I heard it said in school and my non-leftist friend called Sweden a Socialist state. I tried arguing against that and realized I know nothing about Sweden in regards to it's apparent "socialism".

Why do people say Sweden was a Socialist state?

Because Scandinavian countries are nearest to socialism from all over the world. Certainly it doesn't mean they are. Socialist country is an oxymorone. But if Obama is considered as communist by many idiots, then considering Sweden as socialist isn't so strange. :)

[Zukunftsmusik]

Because Scandinavian countries are nearest to socialism from all over the world.

Um, yeah, no. Even though you point out that they aren't socialist, I don't think they're "nearest to socialism" in any meaningful way.

To the OP: Most people have already pointed this out, but it's because to many if not most people, socialism means an active state, relatively high taxes, social security etc. In this sense, Scandinavian countries may be "socialist", but not by our standards.

[Aware]

Because America is a right-wing politically isolated country, meaning many people think that anything even remotely to the left of the rightist duopoly that currently controls the country is socialism.

Hell, I think some libertarians even believe that America is socialist. :rolleyes:



How are any of these political talking points relevant to socialism as an economic system?
They're not. Only in the twisted political culture of our country do certain social policies equate to a change in the mode of production. Hell, most Americans don't even know what a mode of production is. There needs to be a left revival in this country.

In regards to Sweden, people consider it socialist since the major parties are social democrats, which, as far as Anglos are concerned, is communism and that it can be characterized as state capitalist with "big government." I'm not sure how socialist they would consider themselves, and I'm not sure how socialist their neighbors consider them, but they certainly are considered socialist/communist in the United States.

[RedGuevara]

See that's what I was thinking and I thank you all kindly for replying. Gives me a better basis from which to argue from. According to those facts presented, Sweden may be more people friendly but they're still capitalist at heart.

Sent from my VS840 4G using Tapatalk

[Hrafn]

In regards to Sweden, people consider it socialist since the major parties are social democrats, which, as far as Anglos are concerned, is communism and that it can be characterized as state capitalist with "big government." I'm not sure how socialist they would consider themselves, and I'm not sure how socialist their neighbors consider them, but they certainly are considered socialist/communist in the United States.

The Social Democrats haven't ruled Sweden since 2006.

Also, the Social Democrats - with the exception of minority members - do not consider themselves Socialist.

RedGuevara, there is nothing "people friendly" about our government.

[Zukunftsmusik]

In the Scandinavian nations, there's higher rates of taxation and more state collectivization of national assets than any other bourgeois democracy; these means are often guided by goals shared by socialists (e.g. universal education, healthcare, public pensions, etc.)

"State collectivisation"? There's a lot of state owned property open for "use" for anyone, but I don't think that equals collectivisation in any meaningful way.

Regarding the "goals shared by socialists" - they were enacted as demands rising from the working class (at least to an extent), but in hindsight the state partly taking over reproduction of labour power doesn't bring us any closer to socialism, as someone tried to frame it as in this thread.


Most of their workforce is also unionized or employed by the state, and for these reasons, many outsiders perceive them to be waving at least a pink flag.

I don't think this is true if "most of the workforce" means the majority. The biggest union organises 25% of the workers, according to Wikipedia (I would provide a link, but the English Wikipedia doesn't mention the percentage). I'm aware that this number probably is pretty high, at least compared to American standards, but it's not the majority of the workforce. If and in what way unions actually work in the interest of the workers, is a different matter.

As for being employed by the state, I don't see how that is better or worse than being employed elsewhere. How does the state acting as a capitalist make it any better?


It's a mixed economy. Social democracy can be a beautiful thing.

I don't think "mixed economy" is a fruitful term. It bases itself on the misconception that an "active" state, state property etc. is socialism. Every capitalist country has been a "mixed economy", at least since WWI.

[Zukunftsmusik]

The Social Democrats haven't ruled Sweden since 2006.

To be fair, all the biggest parties can probably be called social democratic in one way or another. (The user said "major parties")

EDIT: I take back this statement.

[Hrafn]

To be fair, all the biggest parties can probably be called social democratic in one way or another. (The user said "major parties")

What kind of twisted definition of Social Democracy do you have? Only one party can today be regarded as Social Democratic in any way, and that's the Left Party. The rest are all neo-liberals to the core.

[Dodo]

Sweden has a long history of Social Democrat rule which shaped the country's institutions.
In addition to that, Sweden, compared to other Euro countries industrialized late, when workers movements were already powerful throughout Europe. They had an already conciouss and well-educated population when they were building the "modern" Sweden. In addition, it was already relatively equal(and poor), lacking a strong aristocratic class.
More addition, their peasents were organized and cooperating with the city-folk. It is highly unionized country even today.

Since 1930s, they were ruled by social democrats, until very recently. Public employment and universalist social policies are pretty big. Therefore, I'd say it is the closest thing one gets to "socialism" as the state and people are actually more "one" and cooperative compared to other countries where state is an obvious tool of oppression.
It is not socialism of course and the means of production are not owned by the working class. They just have a "large" state and in an awesome way, state is much more representative of its working class than many other countries.

Been studying here for 3 years now, loving it. Though they introduced tuition fees for non-EU people :(

[Zukunftsmusik]

Since 1930s, they were ruled by social democrats, until very recently. Public employment and universalist social policies are pretty big. Therefore, I'd say it is the closest thing one gets to "socialism" as the state and people are actually more "one" and cooperative compared to other countries where state is an obvious tool of oppression.

I think you need to read through the thread.


They just have a "large" state and in an awesome way, state is much more representative of its working class than many other countries.

How so?

[Dodo]

I think you need to read through the thread.
How so?

I should have made it more clear. I did not mean Sweden is "socialist".

But if were to assume socialism= means of production socialized, owned by everyone, the state entity built on that(not a state as we know today) would be representative of the dominant class until it abolishes itself.

Everywhere in the world, states are viewed as a force that balances stuff an outside force almost. In Sweden it just feels a lot more like state is the people. I'd say in Marxist perspective, Sweden is a very progressive country and a good model to analyze to see how things work under these circumstances.

I know that since the neo-liberal wave hit, Sweden has also been going through a anti-working class war and fascist movements are on the rise as a result of crises/immigartion..etc

[juljd]

I wouldn't consider Sweden to have ever been socialist, but it has at least been more progressive than many other countries. Nowadays most good things are step by step being destroyed by the right wing government. The Social Democrats have done some good things in the past but doesn't barely have anything to do with social democracy at all anymore. I actually remember when I was younger, before the change of government. I very rarely saw beggars, homeless people, or even police (not saying the old government was good, just saying how everything is getting even worse with this government). Now I see homeless people and police cars almost every day, and there are beggars everywhere. Meanwhile, the rich are getting richer and the only places to live that are being built are ones that nobody but the wealthy can afford. The class differences are increasing more and more. There have been 55 shootings in my city this year. Racists, fascists and antifeminists are on the rise. Refugees are very often deported facing terrible danger in their home countries. Public transportation is getting more expensive all the time, and if you can't pay you're attacked and held down by the uniformed tram inspectors. School is getting more disciplined and harder, having a former military man as Minister of Education. Society is getting alot colder in general. Things are going to shit, more or less. So no, Sweden isn't socialist.