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Alonso Quijano
16th November 2013, 13:15
Sorry all for new topic,

I'm getting more and more intersted in this crisis right here next to home. This crisis that proves that Capitalism can shit all over you even if you're white and European, and live close - and then it'll still blame it on you.

I'm very happy to sea the left is getting stronger. SYRIZA seem to me like a worthy party. What do the greek here think, and can tell me about it?

Is there any other way other than default?

A Socialist International could try some people here charged with crimes against humanity. What the bankers and capitalists did to the Greek people was inhumane. No exaggerations here. They never had a platform they believed in, only cared about getting some money out of it. Never thinking about the homeless mother, the starving son, the father sleeping in his car, who can't even see a new alternative. What the EU, and the rest of the world, allowed to happen in Greece, should remind us - no European culture and skin colour will ever make us safe from them.

Now I just try to think about how they can get out of this hell. Any other option than default, than? Is it really so bad? Is there a way to avoid it? And is it worth it?

P.S.
I had a Sephardic-Jew family in Greece, my grandma's (she was burn in Turkey) cousins, in the 40s. Yes, there were some racist Greeks. But most Greeks cooperated together with my community, as communists, and helped each other. My community didn't abandon the Christian Greeks, even when they knew they could get deported very soon.
At first when I saw Golden Dawn I thought you had forgot. I know you didn't. Golden Dawn has nothing with Greek history. I'm against nationalism as superiority, I am in favour of using your grandparents as role models, when they deserve it.

I still respect the left that courageously stood by my family in Greece, and hid some Jews when they could. I'm glad you don't let those neo-Nazis re-write history. Sephardic Jews and Greeks are both people with a strong sense of national heritage. But never racist - that's why could easily collaborate together under the Greek flag that time - but NEVER racist. Or at least, never let the racists hijack your tradition and history.

Unlike the stereotype of the area, for Jews the Balkan is one, at least: Greece, Turkey and Bulgaria. I feel my roots there, and in Spain, but not in one place better than the other. After all, we always had cousins on the other side of the border. But appreciated all cultures. Some still define ourselves as "Balkan Sephardi Jews" regarding our history and heritage. Despite sometimes being used as between the wall and a hard place - we saw the beauty of it all. I never lived in Greek, I never usually cared, don't care about Greek football even - but now - It's the most important thing.

I just hope that SYRIZA manages to get Greece out of it, it will stay in control. And be an oppisition to the capitalist regime crawling back.

Also, important call, Greece: IF YOU DEFAULT YOU WAKE BANKS TO NIGHTMARES

You are the responsible ones here. There's no shame to be the first country whose government spends too much while letting its rich evade taxes. You took your fate in your hands, for once.

GREECE SHOULD NOT APOLOGISE
It was badly run - let the ones responsible apologies. And the rich who didn't contribute their part.

The banks? The bank lost all right to talk about "what's right" after sacryficing human life for their way-too-big-capital. Happens to every investor, doesn't it? Who knows, maybe they'll learn not to convince other governments they're invincible from now on.

In it's up for the rest of the left to support them. Occupied by a market they've been trying to free themselves from, for years. And especially fight the dumb stereotype of "lazy workers".

RevolucionarBG
19th November 2013, 22:09
Syriza? No thanks. I support KKE.

Syriza is a coalition of different national and left-wing parties that are trying to prove that "humanity capitalism" or "democratic socialism" is possible. The problem with them is that they can change their ideas too radical, due to great number of parties/movements/organisations taking place in Syriza, that are even different in ideology (both right-wingers and left-wingers are in there).
And Syriza today don't have anti-EU stance (at least not that openly), also Greece would stay member of NATO if they come to power, they would only withdraw forces from other countries, and Belarus would have more central-planning economy comparing ot Syriza's program.

All in all, Syriza reminds me a bit of National-Bolshevik in Russia.

Alonso Quijano
21st November 2013, 18:09
It's not an anti-EU stance that's important right now, it's anti austerity. It's the view that the Greek people have to pay for something that's problematic.

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RedHal
21st November 2013, 21:02
Syriza is a true Soc Dem party that actually has a chance of winning in a western country that is closest to a revolutionary situation. If you're a revolutionary, siding with a Soc Dem in a situation such as Greece, is insanity.

Alonso Quijano
21st November 2013, 21:20
..

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Geiseric
21st November 2013, 21:52
Syriza is a true Soc Dem party that actually has a chance of winning in a western country that is closest to a revolutionary situation. If you're a revolutionary, siding with a Soc Dem in a situation such as Greece, is insanity.

Engels founded the Social Democratic Party of Germany you know. So did many prominent marxists, in their own countries. You should read Principles of Communism.

Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
21st November 2013, 22:00
Engels founded the Social Democratic Party of Germany you know. So did many prominent marxists, in their own countries. You should read Principles of Communism.

The word social democracy has changed meanings in the past two centuries, just how you can't really get away with saying the word "faggot" in America just because it used to mean cigar 50 years ago in another country, social democracy no longer implies the revolutionary overthrow of capitalism as it did in Germany and Russia in the late 19th century and early 20th century. And what does the principles of Communism have to do with it? I am aware of the demand for a democratic constitution, but such a demand no longer remains progressive in the 21st century. Otherwise I don't see where Engels endorses Eurocommunism and reformism in his body of work, and even if he did, I don't see why that would led us to logically conclude that we have to back the greek social democrats out of loyalty to theological interpretations of Marxism

RedHal
22nd November 2013, 00:37
Engels founded the Social Democratic Party of Germany you know. So did many prominent marxists, in their own countries. You should read Principles of Communism.

yeah and don't forget the Soc Dems in the German Revolution

Brotto Rühle
22nd November 2013, 00:40
Engels founded the Social Democratic Party of Germany you know. So did many prominent marxists, in their own countries. You should read Principles of Communism.

I'm going to come out and just drop the bomb here; Engels didn't found the SPD.

Per Levy
22nd November 2013, 00:51
Engels founded the Social Democratic Party of Germany you know. So did many prominent marxists, in their own countries. You should read Principles of Communism.

lassalle, liebknecht and bebel would like to have a word with you. also i dont see how the principles of communism have any importence here, or quote what you think is importent to the discussion.

hashem
22nd November 2013, 07:06
Syriza? No thanks. I support KKE.

true and honest reformists are better than fake revolutionaries. in practice, KKE only leads potentially revolutionary forces into a blind alley. it neither holds a revolutionary proletarian line, nor does it supports possible reforms. internationally, it stands with reactionary political trends.

a true revolutionary fights for immediate reforms and thus should collaborate with honest reformists to some extend without becoming one with them or abandoning an independent proletarian stand.

Delenda Carthago
22nd November 2013, 08:49
true and honest reformists are better than fake revolutionaries. in practice, KKE only leads potentially revolutionary forces into a blind alley. it neither holds a revolutionary proletarian line, nor does it supports possible reforms. internationally, it stands with reactionary political trends.

Lets have fun. Elaborate please.

hashem
22nd November 2013, 11:38
Lets have fun. Elaborate please.

one of the resolutions of 19th congress of KKE is very characteristic:

"The attempts to reform the bourgeois political system will continue towards the formation of two poles: the centre-right based on ND and the centre-left based on SYRIZA. SYRIZA is developing into a social democratic party, which will be more conservative ..."(The reformation of the bourgeois political system).

so ... there is no hope. any attempt for a reform is doomed to fail. revolutionaries! sit in your homes and wait for a revolution! those who are putting forward reforms are doomed to become conservative!

practical result of this policy will be pushing the reformists to the right and making people distrustful towards communists who will seem like a sect and unrelated to them. if KKE was a proletarian party, it would fight for reforms. true communists are vanguard fighters for reforms while they dont stop at them.

KKE is still supporting the USSR model and calls it "socialist". which conscious Greek worker prefers former Eastern bloc conditions to the existing one?

communists prefer to collaborate with true and honest reformists than to trust KKE which only makes the movement passive and disturbs the class consciousness of workers.

Delenda Carthago
22nd November 2013, 12:47
Of course there is no space for reforms. The needs of the Capital in that period have abolished any type of headroom for easing the people's pain. Whoever thinks otherwise should show us how these pro-people reforms can be done in today's capitalism, and also why even SYRIZA has gone from opportunist to completely socialdemocrat at the last year, cutting down its promises to pretty much nothing.


Other than that, "sit on your homes" you say. I dont see anything like that. I see everyday economical struggle by KKE and the People's Allience. And I see victories. For example, SASA(the KKE's high school students front) and PAME(KKE's workers front) accomplished yesterday that a technical high school in Brahami(working class area in Athens) would not shut down. And I see many other everyday working class victories that come from KKE and People's Allience, some of which you can find in the Newswires of the section. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/newswire-greece-iii-t180726/index.html)


On the other hand, what I dont see, is what SYRIZA has accomplished that last year and a half that is no longer a party of 4%, but one of 27%. What have they managed to accomplish? What wins did they brought to the working class? What has changed for the better for the last year? How that 27% is been active on the movement? What significant fights have their forces in the movement gave?


NOTHING.


So, the choice is clear. If you want the elections to solve your problems, go ahead and vote for SYRIZA. If you believe that the solution is gonna come through a strong movement though, you know where to turn your head to.

Delenda Carthago
22nd November 2013, 12:56
And btw, since you mentioned USSR, the view of KKE about the socialism that we experienced in the 20th century is very clear. It does not want another round from the same, it does not accepts uncondionaly everything that had been done, but it also doesnt throw the baby together with the water. It learns from the experience and makes sure that the mistakes are not to be repeated. Thats the communist stance on the history.


Here (http://interold.kke.gr/News/2009news/18congres-resolution-2nd.html)one can find the critic on the construction of socialism in USSR after a 15 years collective study that the party ended in the 18th Congress in 2009.

Oenomaus
22nd November 2013, 13:29
The ICOR/"International Newsletter" Maoists don't just tail SYRIZA, their Greek section, the KOE, is part of it, and hope to transform it into a "broad, popular democratic force for the left" (good luck with that). So much for "honest reformism". It really isn't surprising, though, since the politics of both SYRIZA and the ICOR rely on a vicious and uncritical anti-Soviet attitude.

Generally, relying on reformist, bourgeois parties to win reforms is suicidal. Reforms are won by the class-conscious proletariat exerting pressure on the state, not by outfits of petit-bourgeois (and worse) parliamentarians. Relying on "honest reformists" in this case is analogous to the almost religiously obsequious attitude many British parties have toward the Labour Party.