I have been thinking about becoming a vegetarian

[d3crypt]

Any thoughts and pros and cons for both sides of the argument?

[d3crypt]

Ugh, i made a type in the thread name :-/ Could an admin fix that?

[Per Levy]

i kinda miss the option "only if you want/need to" i mean, if you eat meat on a regular basis it might be hard to change that eating habbit.

[motion denied]

I freaking love meat. My best argument would be: it's bloody delicious.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

I'm an avid meat eater. I revel in it and offer no apologies for it.

But if you feel some strong moral compulsion within you so strong that you want to change your diet, then by all means....modify what you eat according to what your heart is telling you.

Just remember that being vegetarian does not mean you have to cut out the eggs and dairy.

And for God's sake, if you're gonna become a vegetarian do it because YOU want to...not because someone else is trying to guilt you into it.

[argeiphontes]

If you need some information about the benefits, from a non-animal rights perspective (not that there's anything wrong with animal rights) check out this website i'm always pushing: http://www.drmcdougall.com/ There's a helpful forum but don't bring up politics ;)

Dairy should be the first to go, it's completely unnecessary and high in sat fat, a total junk food.

[Thirsty Crow]

I freaking love meat. My best argument would be: it's bloody delicious.
I wanna eat meat so damn hard now.

Some smoked ham. Or grilled sausages. Wiener steak, would be nice. Really, any baloney would do. Anything.

Good thing I got a cat by my side.

Nah just kidding.

But yeah I wanna eat :(

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

I wanna eat meat so damn hard now.

Some smoked ham. Or grilled sausages. Wiener steak, would be nice. Really, any baloney would do. Anything.

Good thing I got a cat by my side.

Nah just kidding.

But yeah I wanna eat :(

Now that you mention it, I could really kill for a Maxwell Street Polish right about now...or a Johnsonville Brautwurst.

With mustard and onions.

Yeah.

[d3crypt]

To be clear: Nobody is pressuring me into this. It's my own choice. I am concerned about the healthiness of eating meat as well as the treatment of animals in factory farms. I would also be interested in your perspectives on animal rights and animal liberation. I love animals and have felt fuilty for eating meat for a long time. But on the other hand Its really tasty.

[Thirsty Crow]

Now that you mention it, I could really kill for a Maxwell Street Polish right about now...or a Johnsonville Brautwurst.

With mustard and onions.

Yeah.
Cruel, just cruel (yeah i googled the pics).


The worst thing is I got deep frozen chicken meat, but man does that take a while to do. It's 5AM. Only crappy cheese available.

[RedSunrise]

I am not against vegetarians, but if I recall it is bad for your health to start off with.

Second, as stated by "Bandeira Vermelha" WHY?!?! Bacon. :wub:

[bcbm]

i eat meat at present but was vegetarian for seven years. i think it is a good thing to be interested in and it really isn't that hard after a month or so. there are lots more non-meat products than meat products! i'd say give it a shot and see how you feel about it.

[argeiphontes]

To be clear: Nobody is pressuring me into this. It's my own choice. I am concerned about the healthiness of eating meat as well as the treatment of animals in factory farms. I would also be interested in your perspectives on animal rights and animal liberation. I love animals and have felt fuilty for eating meat for a long time. But on the other hand Its really tasty.

All those "diseases of affluence" and many cancers are caused by people's diets. Animal protein is cancer promoting and diets low in methionine (IIRC) and protein seem to prolong human life (google CRON or the work of Luigi Fontana).

Animal agriculture also uses antibiotics and is harmful to the environment, not just directly from pig shit runoff into waterways and so forth, but also because it's so inefficient. Slaughterhouse work is some of the shittiest and most dangerous work people do, too.

As for rights, I happen to agree with Peter Singer that animals have a right not to be made to suffer. Capitalist animal factories are extremely cruel, just watch the videos you can find online.

From more of the nutrition perspective, there's these:
PRCM (http://www.pcrm.org/)
Plant Positive (https://www.youtube.com/user/PrimitiveNutrition/videos) "channel" on YouTube. The guy is a nutrition researcher, though he doesn't reveal his identity, but lets slip in one of the videos that he's authored at least one textbook chapter.
This guy (http://www.jeffnovick.com/RD/Home.html)'s pretty good, too. He answers questions on the McDougall board, though.

That's reason enough, but animal rights and environmentalism are damn good ones too. There's no reason to eat any of those meat substitutes unless you're easing into it. The only thing necessary is a B12 supplement, otherwise you'll be fine. There's no reason to mix rice and beans or do any of the macrobiotic crap, it's all been debunked. The American Dietetic Association's official position is that a vegan diet can be healthy for all stages of life, even infants, so there's no real reason not to.

Personally, I've been depressed and have cheated. Shame on me. :unsure: You too can start to think that cheese really ruins the taste of a perfectly good pizza. Seriously. :)

You also don't have to worry about protein. 0.8 grams per kilogram of ideal body mass is the WHO recommendation, and that has a safety factor built in. A good site for cultivating orthorexia is cronometer (http://www.cronometer.com/), originally developed for the CRON (Calorie Restriction with Optimal Nutrition) crowd.

[d3crypt]

Fuck it. Gonna go for it.

[argeiphontes]

What's the worst that can happen? You can just quit. But it's hard to feel bad about doing good. Good luck to you, if you have any questions, feel free to PM me, I can probably dig up a link or two.

Try Morningstar breakfast sausages with pancakes and syrup. It's better than the real thing :) (not vegan though and high in fat and sugar obviously).

[Red_Banner]

Allot of animals aren't vegetarians.
So why should you be?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Two notably missing from reasons-that-the-animal-industry-sucks mentioned in this thread:

1. The abhorrent and dangerous conditions for workers, particularly in abattoirs, which employ mostly immigrant people of colour.

2. The mass monocropping of soy to serve as animal feed, which both causes intense ecological damage and displaces communities.

Which isn't to say that fruits, grains, or vegetables are particularly just; only to highlight the ways that the animal industry isn't. I don't think vegetarians have a particular moral high ground, but I also think it's a good choice (for a point of comparison, I'd also say that not doing cocaine is a good choice, but it's not that abstaining from coke makes you a better person).

Anyway, regardless of what you eat, I highly recommend this text (http://libcom.org/library/beasts-burden-antagonism-practical-history).

[Art Vandelay]

Which isn't to say that fruits, grains, or vegetables are particularly just; only to highlight the ways that the animal industry isn't. I don't think vegetarians have a particular moral high ground

This. As a vegetarian, I feel like I must say if you do become one, don't be one of those over zealous types, they're honestly the worst. It can be as bad/annoying as someone who is an over zealous straight edge person, or a really fundamentalist religious person, or even one of those 'I buy fair trade' liberals.

[Stalinist Speaker]

Degenerates, degenerates you will all turn into monkeys!

:laugh::laugh:

[The Feral Underclass]

It doesn't really make sense if you're not going to give up dairy as well.

[Quail]

Loads of vegetarian/vegan food is really tasty as well as being healthy, and you have nothing to lose really by having and go and giving up meat. I'm vegan so if you want any advice or anything, let me know :)

[The Feral Underclass]

The dairy industry is far crueller and far more exploitative than the meat industry.

It's good that people make decisions to become more conscious about the food they eat, but there also has to be a serious discussion around how other animals are viewed by humans. Becoming a vegetarian is fine, but when you consider the dairy industry's impact on other animals, vegetarianism can only really be a stepping stone, otherwise you're not really addressing the issues that you set out to achieve when you say "I'm becoming a vegetarian." If you're still consuming products that come from the abuse and exploitation of other animals, then what is the point in becoming a vegetarian?

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

I often think about vegetarianism and in my day-to-day life I am functionally a vegetarian since it's a lot cheaper that eating meat and dairy. On the other hand, when I get back to my parents' house that goes out of the window within minutes of getting through the door. Happily I am aware that the meat and cheese at least come from "good" sources because my parents are conscious of these things and I guess have the money to go to a very good butcher.

My sister has been a vegetarian since she was about 4 or 5 though and would have been a vegan if it weren't for cheese.

[d3crypt]

The dairy industry is far crueller and far more exploitative than the meat industry.

It's good that people make decisions to become more conscious about the food they eat, but there also has to be a serious discussion around how other animals are viewed by humans. Becoming a vegetarian is fine, but when you consider the dairy industry's impact on other animals, vegetarianism can only really be a stepping stone, otherwise you're not really addressing the issues that you set out to achieve when you say "I'm becoming a vegetarian." If you're still consuming products that come from the abuse and exploitation of other animals, then what is the point in becoming a vegetarian?

i am gonna stop consuming dairy soon. But i can't give it up quite yet. i will though

[Yuppie Grinder]

Go for it. I'm ex-Vegan and quit after being a non-meat eater for 4-5 years. I stopped really thinking about things in a moralistic way. I think it's good for someone living in today's society to learn to deny themselves things, so if vegetarianism or straight edge is someone's way of doing that, great, it'll help them feel good maybe.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

The dairy industry is far crueller and far more exploitative than the meat industry.

It's good that people make decisions to become more conscious about the food they eat, but there also has to be a serious discussion around how other animals are viewed by humans. Becoming a vegetarian is fine, but when you consider the dairy industry's impact on other animals, vegetarianism can only really be a stepping stone, otherwise you're not really addressing the issues that you set out to achieve when you say "I'm becoming a vegetarian." If you're still consuming products that come from the abuse and exploitation of other animals, then what is the point in becoming a vegetarian?

Don't get me wrong, I'm a vegan, but, realistically, neither vegetarianism, nor veganism, nor any other consumer choice is actually going to "really address" the abuse and exploitation of animals - animal liberation is bigger than that.

I think the point in becoming vegetarian or vegan is cultural, and to raise a point/start a discussion (I mean, on top of the practical, health-related reasons). I think pretensions of it being anything more are just that.

All of that is my round about way of saying, "Go vegan because it's punk, not because you think it will save cows."

[argeiphontes]

All of that is my round about way of saying, "Go vegan because it's punk, not because you think it will save cows."

I like to think that, even if evil is going on, I shouldn't be personally responsible for it. It diminishes my humanity (or something like that ;) ) to just go along with something that's bad, even if the effect size of my refusal is small.

OTOH, shouldn't enough people going vegan save cows?

[Orange Juche]

As long as you make sure you get what you need nutritionally, it's much healthier (I actually eat meat, though sparingly). Environmentally, especially since we're on a path toward climate annihilation, it's a really good choice to make (it takes more grain to produce x pounds of meat, than x pounds of just straight up non-meat products. Something like 40% of greenhouse gasses are thanks to the meat industry).

There's no reason not to unless you have a health issue that a doctor would recommend otherwise, while there are numerous reasons for you to (as I listed, health and environment, and of course, not killing animals if you feel a moral objection to that). So unless you medically couldn't, definitely go for it.

[RedBen]

If you need some information about the benefits, from a non-animal rights perspective (not that there's anything wrong with animal rights) check out this website i'm always pushing: http://www.drmcdougall.com/ There's a helpful forum but don't bring up politics ;)

Dairy should be the first to go, it's completely unnecessary and high in sat fat, a total junk food.

i read in muscle and fitness magazine years ago that low fat dairy was good for lowering body fat. something about dairy calcium inhibiting fat storage to a mild degree. stool samples of high dairy people showed greater amounts of unprocessed fat content than low dairy subjects. point being low fat dairy.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I like to think that, even if evil is going on, I shouldn't be personally responsible for it. It diminishes my humanity (or something like that ;) ) to just go along with something that's bad, even if the effect size of my refusal is small.

OTOH, shouldn't enough people going vegan save cows?

Probably not. Probably they'd slaughter cows and leave their carcasses rotting in refrigerated warehouses in order to artificially maintain the price of beef. This is actually what already happens with eggs and dairy products in Canada, for example.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Why the hell are people against eating cats?

This is a serious damn question. When I was reading about Peruvian history, one of the dishes served was cooked Guinea Pig. Whenever I searched up an online video of this dish being prepared, massive outcries ensued over devouring such a 'cute and innocent animal'. I thought it was pretty rich that these people could claim that eating Guinea Pig is morally wrong while gulping down ham, which comes from an animal that is intellectually on par/ above most dogs, as part of their daily diet. The same applies to cats.

If I got the chance to try some cat, I totally would. As a wonderful comrade of mine once said: "If its deep-fried, then its edible".

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'm not a vegetarian (I eat fish and chicken, sometimes beef) but it's probably healthier for you. Nothing wrong with a little lean animal protein, though, IMO

[Marshal of the People]

I find it hypocritical when meat eaters (people who eat meat) see a problem with eating humans, humans are meat just like any other animal. If we are going to let animals be eaten we may as well let humans be eaten as well if not all meat eating should be banned because it is discriminatory!

P.S. I personally don't advocate cannibalism (I probably wouldn't like the taste of it because I hate the taste of most meat) but I don't see why people who eat meat see anything wrong with it because it is basically the same thing as eating animals (humans are animals in fact). Meat eating should be banned!

[Orange Juche]

Why the hell are people against eating cats?

Even though I occasionally eat meat, I'm 100% against cat-eating. Because I have pet cats and have an emotional attachment. That might not be logical or reasonable, but that's the reason people are against eating cats. Everyone is irrational in one way or another, and anyone who says they aren't is full of shit.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Even though I occasionally eat meat, I'm 100% against cat-eating. Because I have pet cats and have an emotional attachment. That might not be logical or reasonable, but that's the reason people are against eating cats. Everyone is irrational in one way or another, and anyone who says they aren't is full of shit.

This is true. I don't think I could ever think of eating dog.

But that does not excuse ignoring self-criticism. I for one would love to try some Cat McNuggets one day.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I actually heard that low-carbohydrate, high-protein diets, as is similar to the diets of most hunter-gatherer societies, is really good for the human body and basically removes the need to clean ones' teeth (due to bacteria or something).

I remember an anthropological organisation working with various indigenous Australian nations who were still living in traditional societies in the outback were researching the nutritional benefits that came with their diets (e.g. Kangaroo meat, and baked bogong moth bodies near canberra are extremely healthy for you). I'll try to look it up.

Of course this may just be my dodgy memory misinterpreting a news article I've read and me sounding silly.

[tachosomoza]

I love beef too much.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

OP: go for it, you won't know whether it's for you until you try it.

Personally I enjoy meat too much, and dairy. Fuckin' love milk. I also don't really see a problem in consuming meat and dairy on a moral level; the issue is the amount we consume as a species, and the distribution of food across the globe that favours developed societies. That's unfair.

I don't see vegetarianism/veganism as an answer to these problems, because I believe that they can be solved by eating far less meat so as to negate the need for mass slaughter, and battery farming. However, I have a certain sort of admiration for people who choose to be vegetarian/vegan.

And, let's face it, a diet of hummas, pitta, lentil daal etc. does sound fucking delicious! :)

[RedBen]

I actually heard that low-carbohydrate, high-protein diets, as is similar to the diets of most hunter-gatherer societies, is really good for the human body and basically removes the need to clean ones' teeth (due to bacteria or something).

I remember an anthropological organisation working with various indigenous Australian nations who were still living in traditional societies in the outback were researching the nutritional benefits that came with their diets (e.g. Kangaroo meat, and baked bogong moth bodies near canberra are extremely healthy for you). I'll try to look it up.

Of course this may just be my dodgy memory misinterpreting a news article I've read and me sounding silly.

any nutrition expert or health freak knows high protein, low simple carb diets are best. exercise also plays a vital role in your health.

[Ele'ill]

does anyone know the extent that produce industrial giants are also involved in meat and dairy because I know that some of the vegan soy and almond drinks and produced by what are primarily dairy companies

[The Feral Underclass]

FUCK! Made a post here, but then came to quote myself, but edited my post instead, so now it doesn't exist...Very sad.

[Comrade Jacob]

Fuck it. Gonna go for it.

Well done on having enough will power.
I know it's wrong of me but meat is too much of a temptation for me to just stop.

[argeiphontes]

High-protein, high-fat diets are pushed by the Atkins fad, Weston A. Price Foundation, Denise Minger, et al. It's all about making money and selling supplements. You can't do that if the health food is plain old potatoes, which it is, because of its low calorie density and high complex carb content.

A thorough, research-based, and fun debunking of the fads is on the Plant Positive YouTube Channel (https://www.youtube.com/user/PrimitiveNutrition). (There was also a funny ad hominem video comparing the physiques of the vegan doctors vs the fat/protein doctors, but I can't find the link right now.)

Sure, simple sugars are bad in general, but not as bad as other things. A low-fat, plant-based diet is best. Exercise is crucial of course. Most people in the Western world eat too much protein, also. Now if only I could get back on track personally.... ;)

Some of the paleo fad is based on primitive societies like the Eskimo (= eski maux, "fat eaters" in French) that were forced to eat high-fat, high-protein diets because of their fringe environment, and did not actually do that well, as their god of farts and constipation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matshishkapeu) humorously attests ;) Meanwhile, other cultures like the famous Okinawan centenarians got >80% of their calories from sweet potatoes and became the longest-lived population on earth. Besides, I would hope we could do better than hunter-gatherers who only had traditional nutrition knowledge.

Never discuss religion, politics, or diet ;)

[Rugged Collectivist]

Even though I occasionally eat meat, I'm 100% against cat-eating. Because I have pet cats and have an emotional attachment. That might not be logical or reasonable, but that's the reason people are against eating cats. Everyone is irrational in one way or another, and anyone who says they aren't is full of shit.

Everyone holds irrational beliefs but that doesn't mean you should embrace them.


I find it hypocritical when meat eaters (people who eat meat) see a problem with eating humans, humans are meat just like any other animal. If we are going to let animals be eaten we may as well let humans be eaten as well if not all meat eating should be banned because it is discriminatory!

P.S. I personally don't advocate cannibalism (I probably wouldn't like the taste of it because I hate the taste of most meat) but I don't see why people who eat meat see anything wrong with it because it is basically the same thing as eating animals (humans are animals in fact). Meat eating should be banned!

A few months ago I would've been all over this but I just don't know anymore. I used to think other animals couldn't perceive pain in the same way a human could. You could rip off an ant's leg and it would squirm but did it think "I'm in pain, woe is me!"? of course not, ant brains aren't that complex. Dogs and pigs and even rats are different though. I've thought about quitting meat until I find proof that eating it is ethical but I haven't done that and I guess that flies in the face of what I said in response to the previous post, but cognitive dissonance is a pretty tough obstacle so maybe rationalism is harder than I thought.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Some of the paleo fad is based on primitive societies like the Eskimo (= eski maux, "fat eaters" in French) that were forced to eat high-fat, high-protein diets because of their fringe environment, and did not actually do that well, as their god of farts and constipation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matshishkapeu) humorously attests ;).

Uh, heads up - Innu =/= Inuit. You're conflating two geographically and culturally distinct nations here. Not to ride you too hard about it, but it's kind of a serious faux pas.

This actually leads nicely into a point I want to interject on: I think it's really potentially problematic to draw any universal conclusions about eating animals. The relationship between animals, capital, and white people eating animals in the imperial center isn't the only historical or current context in which people have eaten animals. I think grand pronouncements about how, as someone in this thread said, "eating meat should be banned" have, in certain cases, deeply disturbing colonial implications.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I don't really see what the mystery is regarding "diet". Some fats are good (like monounsaturated fat) and some carbs are good, like foods high in dietary fiber. Eat that stuff with lean protein and vegetables, that's my opinion anyway.

[bcbm]

I find it hypocritical when meat eaters (people who eat meat) see a problem with eating humans, humans are meat just like any other animal. If we are going to let animals be eaten we may as well let humans be eaten as well if not all meat eating should be banned because it is discriminatory!

P.S. I personally don't advocate cannibalism (I probably wouldn't like the taste of it because I hate the taste of most meat) but I don't see why people who eat meat see anything wrong with it because it is basically the same thing as eating animals (humans are animals in fact). Meat eating should be banned!

this is stupid

[Zealot]

Enjoy your vegetables and your tofu mate. Personally, I have no desire nor admiration for veganism especially when people use it as a lifestyle choice for "revolutionary" reasons. We may as well just stop buying clothes, food, and technology, all of which is made with wage slavery, often under slave-like conditions. Maybe when there's a cheap, viable meat alternative around i'll consider vegetarianism but there's no way i'm going to live on fucking carrots and beans for the rest of my life.


I find it hypocritical when meat eaters (people who eat meat) see a problem with eating humans, humans are meat just like any other animal. If we are going to let animals be eaten we may as well let humans be eaten as well if not all meat eating should be banned because it is discriminatory!

P.S. I personally don't advocate cannibalism (I probably wouldn't like the taste of it because I hate the taste of most meat) but I don't see why people who eat meat see anything wrong with it because it is basically the same thing as eating animals (humans are animals in fact). Meat eating should be banned!

1. Cannibalism is bad for so many reasons, socially, personally, etc. I think my IQ may have dropped a couple of points just from reading that shit.

2. Are you prophet muhammad or something? Get outta here with your prohibitionist bs.

[Quail]

Enjoy your vegetables and your tofu mate. Personally, I have no desire nor admiration for veganism especially when people use it as a lifestyle choice for "revolutionary" reasons. We may as well just stop buying clothes, food, and technology, all of which is made with wage slavery, often under slave-like conditions. Maybe when there's a cheap, viable meat alternative around i'll consider vegetarianism but there's no way i'm going to live on fucking carrots and beans for the rest of my life.


Living on carrots and beans is great. You can eat carrots with beans, beans with carrots, beans with beans, etc... The possibilities are infitinite and that's not even including which sauce I cook my beans and carrots in! Oh, sometimes I eat a bit of lettuce and grass too. But you know. It's mostly beans and carrots or carrots and beans.


On a more serious note, I don't think that my personal veganism has much of an impact on the animal industries, but as TAT said above, there are reasons beyond that to go vegan. I don't agree with the exploition of animals regardless of the mode of production of the society they're being exploited in so for consistency with my personal beliefs I couldn't eat animal products.

I also don't really get the hostility towards veggie food. I make loads of nice vegan food that non-vegans enjoy eating so I'm guessing if you think all vegetarian food tastes really bad, you've either never eaten any vegetarian food or you're not very good at cooking.

[Eleutheromaniac]

I've become a lacto-ovo vegetarian for health reasons rather than for any moral reason. I don't see anything wrong with eating meat. I believe it is natural for warm-blooded animals to consume other organisms from a general biological standpoint. Coincidentally, however, I was looking for ways to tone down while still gaining muscle. I've found the best way to do this is to limit or eliminate meat consumption before dinner. I'm no nutritionist, but it's worked wonders for me. I learned it from NFL tight end Tony Gonzalez. Just throwing in my two cents. :)

[Brotto Rühle]

I'm not voting cause it's up to you. It's probably a healthy choice to make, to drop red meat at least. I love red meat. Cow, Bear, Bison, Moose, Seal....don't care. It's good, whether it kills me or no.

Though, Vegetarian/Vegan food is pretty delicious.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Any thoughts and pros and cons for both sides of the argument?

Be careful, watch your diet, I tried to once and almost made myself anemic, it was very much lame.

[boiler]

No don't give up eating meat. Meat is lovely and tasty :)

[d3crypt]

Haven't had any meat since i posted this. I have even been a full vegan for 2 days now.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Haven't had any meat since i posted this. I have even been a full vegan for 2 days now.
"Full vegan" strikes me as LOL-worthy for some reason, a la "ALL WE WANT FOR CHRISTMAS IS FULL COMMUNISM".
http://libcom.org/files/imagecache/article/images/libcom-full-communism.jpgAnyway, congrats. How do you feel? If you're doing the "vegan" thing, make sure you're drinking fortified soy/almond/flax/hemp milks or taking supplements unless you have, like, the healthiest-whole-food-every-meal-looks-like-a-rainbow diet ever.

[Sampdoria ★ Fan]

Already Vegan here :-)

[IBleedRed]

The most convincing arguments for vegetarianism (since there are no convincing arguments for veganism) have to do with economic efficiency (it's easier to feed people on grain than on meat) and nutrition. The moralistic arguments are all weak IMO.

If you want to be a vegetarian, go ahead. It isn't as though your choice has to be final for the rest of your life. I do agree with everyone else that it'll become easier after you keep at it for a period of time.

[Quail]

The most convincing arguments for vegetarianism (since there are no convincing arguments for veganism) have to do with economic efficiency (it's easier to feed people on grain than on meat) and nutrition. The moralistic arguments are all weak IMO.

Wouldn't this argument also apply to veganism though? Pretty sure it's less resource intensive to make milk out of soya beans than to feed soya beans to cows to make milk for us.

[Yuppie Grinder]

I think vegetarianism and veganism are generally positive things because they teach restraint, which is a good skill to have. Go for it.

[Marshal of the People]

Enjoy your vegetables and your tofu mate. Personally, I have no desire nor admiration for veganism especially when people use it as a lifestyle choice for "revolutionary" reasons. We may as well just stop buying clothes, food, and technology, all of which is made with wage slavery, often under slave-like conditions. Maybe when there's a cheap, viable meat alternative around i'll consider vegetarianism but there's no way i'm going to live on fucking carrots and beans for the rest of my life.




1. Cannibalism is bad for so many reasons, socially, personally, etc. I think my IQ may have dropped a couple of points just from reading that shit.

2. Are you prophet muhammad or something? Get outta here with your prohibitionist bs.

Cannibalism is just the same as eating animals! They are both wrong!

[IBleedRed]

Wouldn't this argument also apply to veganism though? Pretty sure it's less resource intensive to make milk out of soya beans than to feed soya beans to cows to make milk for us.

You have to draw the line somewhere. Cows are domesticated and have been on the farm for a long time now. It's not like they'll stop existing if we stop consuming meat and dairy. Also, veganism extends beyond food and includes industries such as leather and wool. Those are valuable raw materials and many consumer goods that raise the standard of living utilize them.

I said vegetarian diets are more efficient, but the solution to that is to make meat-producing more efficient. I think "growing" meat in the future will be a viable option.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Cannibalism is just the same as eating animals! They are both wrong!

Enh.
Personally, for me, it's about taking animals including people on a case-by-case basis. Y'know.
Like I got no beef (ha) with some cow I've never met, but are there a few people I'd love to chop up and marinade before serving with gravy? I mean, I'm not going to answer that explicitly, but, y'know.
Anyway, so like, my roommate has this dog, Goose. He's really disrespectful, regularly opens the door to my room, goes in, and eats stuff off of my desk. So, like, would I eat my roommate's dog? I mean, it would be pretty hurtful to roommate, so, no, but under the right circumstances . . .

[Psycho P and the Freight Train]

Pros: Does not support the brutal meat industry in its treatment of animals, helps immensely to prevent cancer, prevents antibiotics from getting in your body to weaken your immune system, and is a good mental discipline to practice self control.

Cons: Meat is fucking delicious.

I'm a meat eater by the way, but I plan on going vegan in a few years for health purposes (vegans are healthy as shit). I say in a few years because I want to enjoy meat for a little while longer xD Even though I feel bad for the poor animals being sacrificed simply because I lack self control.

[IBleedRed]

^^ Free range organic meat doesn't involve antibiotics or the threat of cancer. So that's a viable alternative

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I think vegetarianism and veganism are generally positive things because they teach restraint, which is a good skill to have. Go for it.

I'm pretty sure there is vegetarian/vegan gluttonous behavior.

[Quail]

I'm pretty sure there is vegetarian/vegan gluttonous behavior.

This is definitely true, and reminds me I have some nice ice cream in my freezer.

[Sinister Intents]

I'm pretty sure there is vegetarian/vegan gluttonous behavior.

I most definitely over eat when I eat vegetarian quite often haha, It's so good and their is less regret over eating vegetarian, lately I haven't been able to eat fully vegetarian :( makes me sad...
Also vegetarian food is freaking expensive in my area :( and gas prices suck...

[Sea]

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I never really liked meat anyway. It's a pain in the butt to cook well and it usually doesn't taste very good when it's storebought or from a restaurant.

But honestly vegetarianism isn't something that you should have to actively force yourself to do. If it is, it will probably just cause you a lot of stress.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

But honestly vegetarianism isn't something that you should have to actively force yourself to do. If it is, it will probably just cause you a lot of stress.

Which causes ulcers and isn't very healthy after all.

[BIXX]

Maybe I'm just lucky, but I never really liked meat anyway. It's a pain in the butt to cook well and it usually doesn't taste very good when it's storebought or from a restaurant.

But honestly vegetarianism isn't something that you should have to actively force yourself to do. If it is, it will probably just cause you a lot of stress.


As a vegetarian, I completely agree. If you have to force yourself to eat a certain way, it probably isn't for you.

[Yuppie Grinder]

I'm pretty sure there is vegetarian/vegan gluttonous behavior.

I just mean that in our society, it's healthy to learn to be able to go without certain things by choice. When I was a vegan I lived unhealthy. I lost a lot of weight on a diet of almost strictly potato chips and sweet tea.

[Fourth Internationalist]

I most definitely over eat when I eat vegetarian quite often haha, It's so good and their is less regret over eating vegetarian, lately I haven't been able to eat fully vegetarian :( makes me sad...
Also vegetarian food is freaking expensive in my area :( and gas prices suck...In what way are they more expensive? Non-meat food (normal food, not any expensive crap) is almost always much much cheaper than meat from what I've seen.

[Sinister Intents]

In what way are they more expensive? Non-meat food (normal food, not any expensive crap) is almost always much much cheaper than meat from what I've seen.

In my area it seems you can only get vegetarian foods at Aldi's and Wegmans :( whichl is more expensive thatn non vegetarian food, for example at the local store Mack's a pack of ground beef costs usually less than four dollars but vegetarian hotdogs are like fucking five dollars, same wiht begetarian chicken. Also evertime I buy vegetarian food I'm spending like $70 for a few items andl itls pisses me the fuck off, that and gas prices suck s o when I can leave to go buy mey own food it costs me from my own pocket so I'm stuck with thel cheakp shit my parensta buy

[Fourth Internationalist]

In my area it seems you can only get vegetarian foods at Aldi's and Wegmans :( whichl is more expensive thatn non vegetarian food, for example at the local store Mack's a pack of ground beef costs usually less than four dollars but vegetarian hotdogs are like fucking five dollars, same wiht begetarian chicken. Also evertime I buy vegetarian food I'm spending like $70 for a few items andl itls pisses me the fuck off, that and gas prices suck s o when I can leave to go buy mey own food it costs me from my own pocket so I'm stuck with thel cheakp shit my parensta buyWhy not just buy other vegetarian food rather than faux meat?

[Sinister Intents]

Why not just buy other vegetarian food rather than faux meat?

I should.... gracias, I be drunk btw

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

if you want to, do it. You might have to think about your diet a bit more but afaik it's not going to do you any harm. I don't eat meat most of the time and I wouldn't if it was less avaliable to me - and this is from someone who certainly loves the texture and taste of meat and offal and disregards the moral arguments of meat-eating. Frankly it's probably better for the good old planet as well.

[IBleedRed]

Why not just buy other vegetarian food rather than faux meat?

What I do is eat less meat but buy free-range, organic, grass-fed (in the case of beef) meat. Since the organic stuff is more expensive, you compensate by eating it less often. It's worth it IMO, and I can usually have meat 1-2 times a week vs nearly every day which is what I used to do.

[Quail]

Instead of faux meats, beans, lentils, chickpeas, etc. are pretty versatile and also cheap. Here a can of chickpeas costs about £0.60 (often cheaper, depending on the shop/brand) and they can go in all kinds of things - I make falafel, curry, peanut stew, couscous/rice salads, etc. I live in a place where you can get fresh veg pretty cheaply too. I don't actually know how much meat costs, but I'm guessing it's more expensive. I do cook from scratch every day though, unless I'm ill (in which case I will probably cook something like frozen bean burgers, veggie nuggets, frozen pizza, etc - the latter two are a bit pricey but since I only eat them on occasion it's kind of okay).

[Art Vandelay]

I honestly don't really enjoy faux meat very much and usually don't ever buy it; seems so pointless to me to become a vegetarian to then eat fake meat.

[Goblin]

I recently started eating meat again after having been a vegetarian for little over 1 year (i think). I personally didn't like being a vegetarian. Most vegetables make my mouth and throat itch, and faux meat is really expensive over here. I know this is gonna sound kinda mean to some of you, but i honestly couldn't care less about some fucking cow or a pig in some slaughterhouse somewhere.

It's totally cool if people wanna go vegan or vegetarian though. It's certainly a much healthier option than eating meat.

[human strike]

If you wanna learn how to cook really well, stop eating meat. Meat eaters seem to think meat is an acceptable substitute for flavour. For a couple of years I've been semi-vegetarian, but more and more I want to eat meat less and less - it's not tasty actually, not compared to good vegetarian and vegan food. I am shocked by the number of vegetarians and vegans I know who are still shit at cooking though, I don't know how they survive.

[AnaRchic]

I was a vegetarian for seven years and vegan for two, so I think I'm qualified to speak here. I eat meat now, and I do love it, but I will say this; I was MUCH healthier as a vegetarian. So if health is your main issue I would certainly consider it, though a minimal meet diet (occasional chicken/turkey/fish) would be just as good.


I would also be interested in your perspectives on animal rights and animal liberation

As an anarchist this is a very interesting question. I think animal rights are bogus, but that said I also don't put much stock in the notion of human rights either. I believe in liberation, real freedom, not 'rights'.

So what about animal liberation then? On the one hand, given that I oppose hierarchy, exploitation and domination, our current treatment of animals makes me very uncomfortable. I do not like that we currently enslave and exploit entire species of beings we share the earth with. As an anarchist part of me feels that I must oppose this very hierarchical relationship.

However, on the other side of this, we are just playing our part in the food chain. Humans are not herbivores, though a vegetarian diet can be quite healthy. And lets face it, other animals would not think twice about devouring us ruthlessly. I am not going to be some elitist and tell a third world kid who has gone with table scraps his whole life that he can't eat beef because an animal was oppressed. Ultimately, I am a part of team human.

This is a complex issue for me and I am as of yet undecided on it. I think its one of those issues we will all have to think about and come to some consensus on, after the social revolution and the reconstitution of society. Perhaps there is a way we can use animals for our sustenance without systematically enslaving them. That would be a step in the right direction.

One last thing to keep in mind. Your personal consumption patterns will have ZERO effect on the enslavement and exploitation of animals. Don't get trapped in some bourgeois liberal fear of hypocrisy. One can in theory support animal liberation and still eat meet, the notion that one can't is just left-over judeo-christian baggage related to the notions of 'purity' and 'sin'. The sooner we rid ourselves of such mental excrement the better.

[St Pauli Bhoy]

To be clear: Nobody is pressuring me into this. It's my own choice. I am concerned about the healthiness of eating meat as well as the treatment of animals in factory farms. I would also be interested in your perspectives on animal rights and animal liberation. I love animals and have felt fuilty for eating meat for a long time. But on the other hand Its really tasty.

Based on your rationale, I would recommend eating meat in moderation. Remember, all meat is not created equally!

(1) Prioritize wild meats, especially venison, gamebirds, and oceanic fish. Lake fish is fine if eaten infrequently. While you're at it, learn to fish and hunt, if you can't afford to buy them.

(2) Buy pasture-raised (grass fed) beef, pork, and poultry from your local farmers. Find pork that is "fattened" on whatever local tree nuts are present locally, rather than corn/soy. Farm-raised freshwater fish are another option, especially for white fleshed fish. Avoid farm-raised salmon, they are usually given chemicals to acquire the pink colour.

(3) Diversify your diet as much as possible. Try to avoid eating meat from the same species twice in the same week. Whether you are vegetarian or omnivorous, avoid a diet consisting of just a few species. Include as many wild species as possible, animal or vegetable. Just be sure to harvest them in a sustainable manner.

[MarcusJuniusBrutus]

Any thoughts and pros and cons for both sides of the argument?

It's a giant pain in the ass and you will get nothing in return for your almost theistic dietary restriction.

[BIXX]

Ok, I don't know if I've posted in this thread or not, but here is my take on it: if you don't want to eat meat for health reasons, don't eat meat.

If you don't want to eat meat for moral reasons, continue eating meat.

If you see animals as your equals and thus it makes you happy not to eat meat, don't eat meat. If you have no problem eating your equals, continue eating meat.

Basically, I don't eat meat for health reasons plus I like most animals far too much. However I would eat meat if it was something I acquired more naturally (hunting it myself, perhaps?) or if I needed to for survival. I would not feel guilty for eating meat. I don't think it's wrong, I just don't understand it.

[Skyhilist]

If you don't want to eat meat for moral reasons, continue eating meat.

Idk don't you think that wanting animal liberation on a moral basis yet consuming the flesh of those you want to be liberated would be a bit hypocritical?

Also, OP, if you ever go vegan, I hope you see it as a vehicle that facilitates a social movement for animal liberation - not just a consumerist decision. When we look at other important movements, we can see that boycotts alone weren't enough. For example, during the civil rights movement of the 60's, there were mass bus boycotts, and they were useful. But they weren't the only tactic: plenty of direct action needed to be taken as well to ensure any type of success.

[exeexe]

You should eat organic meat .. So i voted NO
http://meatandwildgame.about.com/od/Beef_Veal/a/Organic-Vs-Naturally-Raised.htm

[BIXX]

Idk don't you think that wanting animal liberation on a moral basis yet consuming the flesh of those you want to be liberated would be a bit hypocritical?


It could be, but my point is that you should go for what would suit you the best, not what some abstract rule says you should do.