Polish Solidarity

[kohctpyktop]

What's the general consensus around here about the solidarity movement in Poland back in the 80's?

From what I understand they opposed communism (and the USSR, which I don't believe was communist, but in any case..), which garnered Reagan's support in some way to help bring down the USSR. However, in my understanding their main platform was the ability to unionize workers and gain fairer wages, etc, which sounds somewhat socialist.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

In a sense the nature of the USSR built up a sense of false consciousness among the workers - a kind Marx never talked about - where the exploitation of labor by state capital and the claims by state capital of being "communist" made many workers in Eastern Europe throw in their lot with liberalism, since the freedom to unionize and struggle collectively seemed to be more protected in the US and Western Europe.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

It was a natural response to Soviet imperialism, plain and simple. The U.S.S.R. was at that point a lumbering antique of a system that refused to update with the times. It's no wonder that people began seeking representation outside of the Soviet apparatus.

[Red_Banner]

Instead of fixing things, Solidarity let the country be sold out to full blown capitalism.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Solidarity was formed in opposition to the corrupt and decrepit Polish regime, which was bad even when compared to other bloc states. The ostensibly socialist state showed it's gratitude to it's workers by massacring them in the dozens in Gdnask shipyard. So that's the kind of environment that Solidarity came from. In it's early days there was a significant syndicalist/socialist presence in the movement, but over time it became just another piece of propaganda/national mythology to legitimize the modern Polish state.

[Sam_b]

Solidarity was formed in opposition to the corrupt and decrepit Polish regime, which was bad even when compared to other bloc states. The ostensibly socialist state showed it's gratitude to it's workers by massacring them in the dozens in Gdnask shipyard. So that's the kind of environment that Solidarity came from. In it's early days there was a significant syndicalist/socialist presence in the movement, but over time it became just another piece of propaganda/national mythology to legitimize the modern Polish state.

Broadly agree, but feel this is too simplistic. The Polish state went through a thaw period from the late 1950s all the way through the the 1970s demonstrations, which was in fact far more liberal than many of their other satellite countries (for instance Hungary, Romania, to an extent Czechoslovakia in normalisation). The leadership of Władysław Gomułka in the 1960s was, relatively speaking, quite popular with people. My point being that all the regime states went through peaks and troughs of support and hardline-ism, and it's unhelpful to say that an entire country's Cold War history can be seen as a whole and 'better' or 'worse' than some others. During the hight of Polish Stalinism, for instance, it never reached the extremes of Rákosi's Hungary. For the normalisation process under Husák in Czechoslovakia which was awful you can't really say it was like Romania at the time. So on and so forth.

It would be incorrect to say that the 1970s massacre was in Gdańsk only as it was a wave of demonstrations that were all up the Baltic coast, in areas like Elbląg and Szczecin; and were not solely constricted to the shipyards.

Your last sentence is pretty correct, though we should note that Solidarność in today's Poland is actually relatively unpopular due to their disastrous Akcja Wyborcza Solidarność government after the 1997 elections. In many ways it repeats the problem of CEE and civil society now, when those who were the dissidents were thrust into positions of power and leadership without having any idea how to really run the country. What is interesting about Solidarność though in the early days is how it united many workers from socialists to Church priests who went underground in trying to undermine the state. The second circulation, or the method in which the union grew clandestinely, is extremely fascinating and bases itself on many techniques used by underground communist organisations in the past.

[tuwix]

What's the general consensus around here about the solidarity movement in Poland back in the 80's?

From what I understand they opposed communism (and the USSR, which I don't believe was communist, but in any case..), which garnered Reagan's support in some way to help bring down the USSR. However, in my understanding their main platform was the ability to unionize workers and gain fairer wages, etc, which sounds somewhat socialist.

The case of Solidarity is more complex. At the begining it was movement against
authorities who have led to economic troubles. But it was egalitarian movement. During the strike that began a movement journalists were frequently treated as enemies of poor people. The main demands of them were freedom of speech, free saturdays (in some saturdays people had to work) and increasing of salaries.

Everuthing has changed when the regime inttroduced martial law and delegalised Solidarity. Then it has become elitist organisation financed by US governent. And we all know very well that USA don't finance anything for free... Thusly, Solidarity started to be a force to restore classic capitalism in Poland...

But now it's quite genuine labour union. They are the greatest forse in fight for workers' rights. But their former elites are gaurdians of new capitalist order in Poland.

As you see, the Solidarity (Solidarność) is very complex story...

[RevolucionarBG]

Instead of fixing things, Solidarity let the country be sold out to full blown capitalism.

This is the main thing what "Solidarity" did.

Maybe their idea was humble, by wanting to remove Poland from "evil USSR imperialists" (lol - people actually says this, and those people are from NATO-member-states), but the fact that they were supported by Neo-liberal Reagan, and the fact that they turned to anti-communism gives everyone understanding what it was.
And if you see today what happened to Poland, you understand that Solidarity was FAR WORSE than USSR and Polish government of that time.

[Sam_b]

lol - people actually says this, and those people are from NATO-member-states

Sorry, this is not how this sort of thing works. People who say the USSR was imperialist do not necessarily support NATO. It is a strawman argument.


but the fact that they were supported by Neo-liberal Reagan

So judging by this quote we can assume that you don't think Solidarność could have continued if not supported by the US?


and the fact that they turned to anti-communism gives everyone understanding what it was

The understanding that being in the polarised position that they were, and the entirity of post #2 in this thread, that it is not surprising seeing that a proper working-class alternative was not presented to them? Are you actually surprised this turned out this way?


And if you see today what happened to Poland

Okay, tell me what happened to Poland then, because it's pretty crucial to your conclusion that:


Solidarity was FAR WORSE than USSR and Polish government of that time

Some evidence to make some points would help. For instance if we're talking about political/economic/social factors or whatever.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

So are people assuming that if solidarity had never existed, Poland would still be an ML state today or something? Why is the blame being put on a trade union instead of the idiots running the country that led to people wanting/needing to form it in the first place?

[Sam_b]

Why is the blame being put on a trade union instead of the idiots running the country that led to people wanting/needing to form it in the first place?

As I explained in post #6, Solidarność leaders under the banner of Akcja Wyborcza Solidarność were the idiots running the country at one point.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

That's odd im under the impression that the people's republic of Poland collapsed a little before 1997

[Sam_b]

That's odd im under the impression that the people's republic of Poland collapsed a little before 1997

I've obviously misinterpreted your post, apologies. I obviously got confused with the use of 'running' rather than 'ran'.

[tuwix]

Maybe their idea was humble, by wanting to remove Poland from "evil USSR imperialists" (lol - people actually says this, and those people are from NATO-member-states)


Do you think that citizens of NATO member states don't have the right to say anything true?



, but the fact that they were supported by Neo-liberal Reagan


The first Solidarity that was 10 mln movement against economic crisis of state capitalism didn't support Reagan. But apparenty your knowledge is too low to know it.




And if you see today what happened to Poland, you understand that Solidarity was FAR WORSE than USSR and Polish government of that time.

Labour union who didn't kill anyone is "FAR WORSE" than governemnets who killed thousands or milions? :D