The American mindset?

[empireofred]

A couple of days ago I asked an American (middle class) friend of mine about shrinking the gap between the rich and poor; specifically I said: "Hypothetically speaking, wouldn't you prefer it if your husband didn't have to work two jobs to be able to live decently with the condition of having the working class get paid more and be able to afford to have a house and not struggle to get by?"
She said "No, I don't think minimum wagers deserve to get paid more because then they wouldn't strive to better themselves, that's the 'American way.' I'd rather have my husband work all day long rather than have simple workers get more for flipping burgers or something of the like."

In essence, she said "I don't want to make my life easier if it means shrinking the gap between me and the working class."

It's baffling, I'm wondering if there are many people who agree with that inherently mean-spirited mindset. Is it just me who finds it outrageous?

[ВАЛТЕР]

It's similar to the rabid defense of slavery in the American South during the civil war. Even though slaves were something only wealthy plantation owners had, the working class of the South was willing to throw itself onto bayonets in order to defend this right for the bourgeois land owner to keep slaves. Simply because it meant that even though they were workers and were not well-off and most likely would never own a slave in their life, it comforted them knowing that there is an underclass. No matter how bad it got, they could always say they weren't slaves.

Your friend is defending her privilege which she perceives as being threatened. Even though her "privilege" is an illusion as she is still a proletariat, just with a better paying job. She doesn't want to be equal to the "burger flipper" as she views him as an underclass.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Ah, yes, the popular American myth of bettering oneself.

[RedSunrise]

Your friend is defending her privilege which she perceives as being threatened. Even though her "privilege" is an illusion as she is still a proletariat, just with a better paying job. She doesn't want to be equal to the "burger flipper" as she views him as an underclass.

First, I want to say that was a beautiful example and excellent post. +1 :thumbup:

Second, I think that she is in some cases justified. Although these cases are very rare, there are a decent number of Americans who are lower class, because they are lazy (I am an American and see it every day) These kinds of people are becoming more and more common as our government starts to give out more in Welfare. Walk through any USA city and you will find career welfarers.

This lady is also scared of being equal to the actual losers of society "Burger Flippers", because she refuses to acknowledge hard working people in the working class. The American middle class has been brain washed into thinking work hard = higher class, lazy = lower class

Just my two cents ;) Great thread OP

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

These kinds of people are becoming more and more common as our government starts to give out more in Welfare.
The government has been cutting back on benefits, not giving out more.

[Futility Personified]

The career progression myth is very important. It is an important lie to believe, because noone starts off in a low paying job and genuinely will want to stay there without their prospects being improved in the foreseeable future (although this relies on the idea that the job market is some vast ocean of choice, it really isn't). The trivial gains that you can make through submitting yourself entirely to business are just miniscule compared to what could be achieved if we as workers united. So yeah, it's a another division tactic of turning the workers on themselves.

Redsunrise:

Surely "career welfare" is a symptom of underpay? Being exploited for peanuts is not exactly an exciting prospect, let's be honest. If we must work to live on the margins, then what is the point in trying to "better" ourselves? I can have more free time, to indulge myself in whatever makes me happy, though this is difficult to achieve in poverty conditions, or I can work somewhere that I will absolutely hate, just so I can afford to drink away my misery at the weekend.

[RedSunrise]

Redsunrise:

Surely "career welfare" is a symptom of underpay? Being exploited for peanuts is not exactly an exciting prospect, let's be honest. If we must work to live on the margins, then what is the point in trying to "better" ourselves? I can have more free time, to indulge myself in whatever makes me happy, though this is difficult to achieve in poverty conditions, or I can work somewhere that I will absolutely hate, just so I can afford to drink away my misery at the weekend.

No, I see it in families... Great grandparents may have been under payed, so they may have given up or was just extremely lazy (Lazy can happen for NO reason but lazy), so they started on welfare. Their kids then became entitled. I've heard of a girl in college from a college professor friend of mine: Thought the government gave us welfare, so we didn't have to work. She also didn't know that's what taxes were for (To get money to pay welfare) She also thought the public school system was free. Yes, there are victims of under pay, but that doesn't mean you should be ignorant and lazy.

By taking welfare! You are just making it harder on the other "burger flippers" to pay for your sad existence.

[Futility Personified]

But honestly, why should they work? What is innately wonderful about slaving away for someone when you will get so little in return? I know a few people from "problem families", they do not have a whale of a time on benefits (UK welfare). Their lives as far as I can discern are a cycle of mental illness and poverty. I have a close relative who doesn't work because he is extremely depressed and has severe anxiety. If people are lazy, there are often causes for this that a cursory glance with a judgemental air will not discern.

The less people want to work, the more that is an indicator of how things are broken. A huge motivator is that if you work, you can buy some fancy ass shite, but now standards of living are slipping it is once more to keep a roof over their heads. Not to mention that do you really want to give your precious time away on earth for a new plasma screen?

Being angry about the welfare lifestyle is missing the problem that causes it. In the UK, the recent dogma of the conservative party has been that of "strivers and skivers" or something to that effect. Newspapers regularly run absurd stories of errors in the welfare state, with the express purpose of running all the protection that we can have in unemployment into the ground. All the while huge corporations evade tax, privatisations occur, as the threadbare rug that is all that remains of the postwar social democrat consensus is pulled out from under us. Problems with welfare are symptoms of capitalism.

[RedSunrise]

Problems with welfare are symptoms of capitalism.

I agree 100%

I do not agree with "everyone on welfare has a good reason"

Please ignore boarder line comments here:

I live in/5 minutes away from one of the best cities for welfare in the country. Walking down the street I can name five houses in a block with illegal immigrants. Four of them are on welfare; one has a small shop and makes a decent living. Can you guess which families I have a problem with? They didn't move to the USA, because they wanted to work (You can do that in other countries) They came here because they didn't have to work.

I have no problem with a victim of capitalism getting welfare.
I have no problem with most illegals.
I have a problem with someone who doesn't try.

[Hermes]

because, god knows, if they worked harder they would not only be better people for it, but would eventually become part of the upper class!

we need more cheap labor and less lazybones immigrants, yeah

[Futility Personified]

Firstly, can you explain the process of which illegal immigrants can claim for state assistance in the US? I wasn't aware that they could.

Second, you are angry at people for not consenting to being exploited? I used to feel it was unfair that some worked while others didn't, but it is not the most wonderful lifestyle. It is cruel to denigrate people instead of find reasons to make them want to work, whether it is better pay, better prospects or control of the workplace that they work in.

Again, "someone having to try", when the system is full of so many problems at the top, when ordinary working people get so shafted so much, it seems misplaced to hold a sense of umbrage at these people.

You could also consider the idea that "illegals" come to the various nations they do because these nations have enriched themselves massively off the backs of the migrant's place of origin. It would make sense to consider them victims of capital. Besides that, nations are arbitrary, we all share this planet. We should be able to wander wherever life takes us. Illegally or not. Who writes the laws anyway?

[Red Banana]

I live in/5 minutes away from one of the best cities for welfare in the country. Walking down the street I can name five houses in a block with illegal immigrants.
Ok, so is that 5 houses per block or 5 houses in one block or what? How do you know all of these people are undocumented? Do they just randomly tell strangers something that could easily get them deported or do you have a close relationship with all of them? You said you have a problem with 4 out of the 5 so I guess that means you don't, right?


Four of them are on welfare; one has a small shop and makes a decent living. Can you guess which families I have a problem with?
So you sympathize with the petite bourgeoisie but not destitute immigrants? Nice.
Is there something wrong with being on welfare? Or how about being an undocumented immigrant? Or maybe they're both fine but when put together are bad, is that it?


They didn't move to the USA, because they wanted to work (You can do that in other countries) They came here because they didn't have to work.
This part is just fucking ridiculous. People come here to work and because of their citizenship status have to work jobs for pay often below minimum wage to get by. Also, I've forgotten to mention this so far but, undocumented immigrants can't get welfare. You know you need to apply for welfare with (guess who?) the government (you know the institution that declares you to be 'illegal') and you need things like a social security number right? Also, do you not think people on welfare have jobs? It's different from unemployment, in fact everyone I know and everyone I have ever met who is/was on welfare has had a job, many times two.

[Aware]

I'm American, and I have to say that there are indeed many people who cannot see passed the illusion of our society, but even still, many people are waking up to the reality.

The brainwashing of the American people has been a meticulous process built on the forms of social control already perfected by Europeans.

Also, this woman mAy not have been fully conscious of the implications of what she was saying. She probably has little understanding of how American society functions in reality. An "opinion" like that is to be expected.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I agree 100%

I do not agree with "everyone on welfare has a good reason"

Please ignore boarder line comments here:

I live in/5 minutes away from one of the best cities for welfare in the country. Walking down the street I can name five houses in a block with illegal immigrants. Four of them are on welfare; one has a small shop and makes a decent living. Can you guess which families I have a problem with? They didn't move to the USA, because they wanted to work (You can do that in other countries) They came here because they didn't have to work.

I have no problem with a victim of capitalism getting welfare.
I have no problem with most illegals.
I have a problem with someone who doesn't try.

:laugh:

Please return to your Texan cotton plantation and continue your rowdy housing. You are not a leftist, and you have no fucking idea of the reality of life in working-class and rural Mexico, welfare or work ethic under capitalism.

[Radio Spartacus]

Leftists referring to human beings as illegal! What next, altruistic objectivists?! :laugh:

Living on welfare is very stressful, and being persecuted for crossing an imaginary line into another bourgeois nation state is also very stressful. Some people on welfare are deluded into thinking they can work their way up the ladder, because in the States we don't give a shit that science says they probably can't regardless of skill. If some of them realize that "opportunity" is a lie in America, more power to them. I only wish they could live in a socialist society where their potential was realized.

[RedSunrise]

You are not a leftist, and you have no fucking idea of the reality of life in working-class and rural Mexico


Leftists referring to human beings as illegal! What next, altruistic objectivists?!

First, do you know what it is like in Mexico? Do you live in Mexico? If you do, I will agree with your points. If not: shut up, since you don't know what you are talking about any more than I do.

Second, it doesn't matter if I agree with the law. It is a law nonetheless. Killing someone is illegal. Do I start shooting at cops to defend a murderer from being arrested?

I do not agree with a large portion of the "rules" of society, but as I am a member of and intended to stay a member of society I will follow its rules. I will follow the rules of society, while fighting against them.

[DasFapital]

The people I usually hear complaining about immigrants receiving welfare and government handouts are usually people receiving state assistance themselves. Stories about welfare "bums" are usually peddled to distract people from the crimes of the bourgeois.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I have no problem with a victim of capitalism getting welfare.
Every single member of the working class is a victim of capitalism. Of course, liberals like you simply don't understand that.

[empireofred]

It's similar to the rabid defense of slavery in the American South during the civil war. Even though slaves were something only wealthy plantation owners had, the working class of the South was willing to throw itself onto bayonets in order to defend this right for the bourgeois land owner to keep slaves. Simply because it meant that even though they were workers and were not well-off and most likely would never own a slave in their life, it comforted them knowing that there is an underclass. No matter how bad it got, they could always say they weren't slaves.

Your friend is defending her privilege which she perceives as being threatened. Even though her "privilege" is an illusion as she is still a proletariat, just with a better paying job. She doesn't want to be equal to the "burger flipper" as she views him as an underclass.

I never thought of that; that's a pretty good comparison. Same idea, different level of cruelty.

About immigrants:
I never blame immigrants who are on welfare, I actually support it. To those who are supposedly "milking the system" I say bravo! Why? If the system wasn't rotten they wouldn't need to “milk” it. But in America there seems to be an "understanding" that the wealthy shouldn't be criticized and they somehow deserve what they have. When one brings this up he's "envious." So they can't/don't want to touch the wealthy, and they focus on the worker who's struggling.

Right Hand of Jah

Being angry about the welfare lifestyle is missing the problem that causes it. In the UK, the recent dogma of the conservative party has been that of "strivers and skivers" or something to that effect.

Agreed, the Republicans have a similar disturbing rhetoric.

[#FF0000]

First, do you know what it is like in Mexico? Do you live in Mexico? If you do, I will agree with your points. If not: shut up, since you don't know what you are talking about any more than I do.

Naw things like books and newspapers exist so you can find out about things without having to actually see it for yourself.


Second, it doesn't matter if I agree with the law. It is a law nonetheless. Killing someone is illegal. Do I start shooting at cops to defend a murderer from being arrested?
Yeah, so is being a revolutionist and calling for the overthrow of the state and capitalist society. Private property is protected by law as well, you know.


I do not agree with a large portion of the "rules" of society, but as I am a member of and intended to stay a member of society I will follow its rules. I will follow the rules of society, while fighting against them.Ah, so civil disobedience is out of the question, since blocking streets/sidewalks/exist/entrances is a crime.

You're not doing a good job of defending your stupid ideas here. And by the way, you seem to be under the impression that illegal immigrants can collect unemployment or welfare or something -- which is flatly untrue because you can't get anything with a fake SSN. You can still have payroll tax taken out of your check though!

[DasFapital]

Redsunrise there is an organization callled the Democratic Party where your center right views will be admired.

[Hrafn]

Madre de Dios. Someone restrict RedSunrise, for god's sake.

[Sea]

Empireofred, remind the person that there must be people to flip burgers. That is a job which needs to be fulfilled. Burger-flippers can't all just go to some loftier job, or else there would be nobody to flip the burgers. In fact, this is a problem we are already facing with the phenomenon of "underemployment" where there are a lot of people with masters and PhDs flipping burgers! And, because burger-flipper is a function in society that needs to be fulfilled, this person is no matter what condemning people to a low wage, solely on the basis of their shallow judgmental opinion that some workers are "better" than others. The same point hold for janitors, garbage collectors, etc.
If you do, I will agree with your points. If not: shut up, since you don't know what you are talking about any more than I do.That doesn't make any sense. You should agree with the person if they are correct, and disagree with them if they are incorrect, no matter where they live. Your agreeing or disagreeing should depend on the content of their argument.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Every single member of the working class is a victim of capitalism. Of course, liberals like you simply don't understand that.

No liberal I know would ever buy into Reaganite fantasies.


This guy sounds like a filthy nativist shitwad.

[Loony Le Fist]

Although these cases are very rare, there are a decent number of Americans who are lower class, because they are lazy (I am an American and see it every day) These kinds of people are becoming more and more common as our government starts to give out more in Welfare. Walk through any USA city and you will find career welfarers.

As a US citizen, all I have seen is the government and politicians cutting back on social and welfare spending. I wonder where you live in the US, because I would love to live in a place where "career welfarers" have decent lives. Where I live, it is impossible to get cash assistance or Medicaid unless you are a senior or have children. Monthly food assistance has been cut by $10-$30. There was $90 billion dollars cut to SNAP recently, with more automatic cuts coming down the pipe. I don't see this coming crisis of career welfarers you describe. I see a coming crisis of poor people with nothing.

[ВАЛТЕР]

The idea of "lazy welfare leeches" is bourgeois propaganda. Have you ever lived on welfare? Let me tell you, it is not living. It's an attempt to turn the working class against each other and redirect the frustration of the working class against their class brothers and sisters.

[RedSunrise]

Naw things like books and newspapers exist so you can find out about things without having to actually see it for yourself.

Yeah, so is being a revolutionist and calling for the overthrow of the state and capitalist society. Private property is protected by law as well, you know.

Ah, so civil disobedience is out of the question, since blocking streets/sidewalks/exist/entrances is a crime.

You're not doing a good job of defending your stupid ideas here. And by the way, you seem to be under the impression that illegal immigrants can collect unemployment or welfare or something -- which is flatly untrue because you can't get anything with a fake SSN. You can still have payroll tax taken out of your check though!

Thank you FF0000! As usual from what I see on other threads you add something intelligent. :)

For the rest of you who settle to insult me: Please glance up at which part of the forum this is on "Opposing Ideologies" If I wanted to talk about leftist ideas I would not be discussing in this section (HOLY **** didn't think of that :lol:) I was attempting to put lame excuses of the right, since that is the point of this section in an attempt to learn. Perhaps later I will summarize what I have learned in a thread in the "normal" sections and actually discuss things left on left.

For those who think the previous paragraph is insane: In philosophy, steel does not sharpen steel. You must understand other before you can debate them. Why is this forum section here? To help solidify and learn from opposing ideologies. I, in the span of a few well written posts, have learned a decent bit and I am grateful to those who taught me.

Call me crazy, but I learned

[#FF0000]

Call me crazy, but I learned

well thats good.

everyone else needs to chill out for real though. losing your shit at someone who says a dumb thing doesn't make you look like a militant as much as it makes you look like a screaming dumb baby. at least include some substance when you call people stupid. c'mon.

[Black_Rose]

First, I want to say that was a beautiful example and excellent post. +1 :thumbup:

Second, I think that she is in some cases justified. Although these cases are very rare, there are a decent number of Americans who are lower class, because they are lazy (I am an American and see it every day) These kinds of people are becoming more and more common as our government starts to give out more in Welfare. Walk through any USA city and you will find career welfarers.

This lady is also scared of being equal to the actual losers of society "Burger Flippers", because she refuses to acknowledge hard working people in the working class. The American middle class has been brain washed into thinking work hard = higher class, lazy = lower class

Just my two cents ;) Great thread OP

I do see a problem with sloth (in a broad sense) as one should do something to better themselves and enjoy life instead of lying around indolent, but this does not mean one has a moral obligation to be working at all. I am totally unopposed to a life of greater leisure and freedom from having to work low prestige, low remunerating jobs.

I do not know exactly how this woman's mindset was cultivated, by what exposure to American culture and political ideology, but it is certainly reprehensible that she would deny a (hypothetical) opportunity for more leisure and economy security just to immiserate the lives of the less fortunate so she can retain her feelings self-righteousness and superiority over those she regards as "inferior". She would likely think that to believe that one should have more leisure time is a manifestation of the pathological "entitlement mentality". How pathetic! She only has my contempt and, more importantly, the disdain and indifference of those who wield political and economic power who do not give the slightest fuck about her material interests and opinions and only regard her a fungible commodity on the labor market. The media and educational system manipulated her opinions to obedience and complacency by exploiting her sense of status insecurity and perverting her sense of "justice" so she can endorse irrational and anti-utilitarian positions, and it has succeeded in that regard.

Certainly, "betterment" would include: cultivating moral virtues such as charity, sympathy, and sincerity; artistic pursuits such as poetry, painting, and novel writing; intellectual growth by learning higher math, reading classical literature such as Homer's Odyssey, and studying philosophy and science. No, in this context, it means submitting yourself as a wage slave where one would be deprived the leisure time to pursue any meaningful endeavors.

Years ago, I lost all faith in any American social, political, military, or economic institutions, and adopted Marxism-Leninism to commend the accomplishments of Stalin for building a rival power that was able to challenge and restrain capitalist hegemony for a half century and advocate an economic system that treats all with dignity. Political participation in a bourgeois democracy is largely a just a waste of time. At times, I lament that I lost my fervor for Marxist-Leninism, but I have no other political ideology that can fill that vacuum so it is my preference to retain the label.

Sadly, this attitude is not that uncommon and quite vulgar:


In order to feel good about themselves, humans need to feel that there are other people below them on the totem pool. This is a sad but true reality of human nature.



Because of this important human need, we humans spend a lot of time trying to figure out how the social class immediately below us is different and inferior. On the other hand little attention is usually paid to the higher class, because thinking about the class higher than you doesn’t give you any good feelings, and in fact can cause cognitive dissonance. It’s because of this that people know a lot about the difference between themselves and the class immediately below them, but very little about the difference between themselves and the class above them.



One (but certainly not the only) important differentiator is money. Having more money makes you feel superior to those who have less money. But money just sitting in a bank account doesn’t demonstrate this very well. Thus did Thorstein Veblen coined the phrase “conspicuous consumption.” But you should also be aware that people who spend money seldom think about conspicuous consumption, because a lot of this behavior works on the subconscious level. Driving around in a ten-year-old Hyundai just causes people to have feelings of inferiority when they see other people drive by in more expensive cars. We are less likely to feel envy of people’s bank accounts because they are invisible and there’s a social taboo for people to speak about them.



I think the people who are most opposed to an increase in the minimum wage are those making slightly more than the minimum wage. For the guy making $12/hour, an increase in the minimum wage from $7 to $10 would be a mighty blow to his feelings of success. But people making six figures are so far insulated from making $7/hour that they just don’t suffer the least bit of worry that increasing the minimum wage would lower their own status.
http://www.halfsigma.com/2012/04/a-rambling-blog-post-about-class.html

[Sea]

For those who think the previous paragraph is insane: In philosophy, steel does not sharpen steel.Yeah, well, philosophy is to blacksmithing as masterbation is to sex.
You must understand other before you can debate them. Why is this forum section here? To help solidify and learn from opposing ideologies.No, it's here to piss on rightists. If you think it's here for learning, wait a few months and see if you don't change your tune. If you act like a rightist expect to get pissed on.[QUOTE=RedSunrise;2686499I, in the span of a few well written posts, have learned a decent bit and I am grateful to those who taught me.[/QUOTE]Merci, merci!

[empireofred]

Thanks for the replies. I'm relieved that you guys find it ridiculous as well. Unfortunately at that time some of the points you made wouldn't come to my mind, I always remember them afterwards :cursing:

After that I actually told her that if that was her belief then there was nothing else for us to discuss/debate.

[RedMaterialist]

What a bunch of goddamned racists.

[Alonso Quijano]

It's similar to the rabid defense of slavery in the American South during the civil war. Even though slaves were something only wealthy plantation owners had, the working class of the South was willing to throw itself onto bayonets in order to defend this right for the bourgeois land owner to keep slaves. Simply because it meant that even though they were workers and were not well-off and most likely would never own a slave in their life, it comforted them knowing that there is an underclass. No matter how bad it got, they could always say they weren't slaves.

Your friend is defending her privilege which she perceives as being threatened. Even though her "privilege" is an illusion as she is still a proletariat, just with a better paying job. She doesn't want to be equal to the "burger flipper" as she views him as an underclass.


:laugh:

Please return to your Texan cotton plantation and continue your rowdy housing. You are not a leftist, and you have no fucking idea of the reality of life in working-class and rural Mexico, welfare or work ethic under capitalism.


Every single member of the working class is a victim of capitalism. Of course, liberals like you simply don't understand that.
You forgot "yet" at the end of her sentence. She doesn't see it the way we do, yet.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

In order to feel good about themselves, humans need to feel that there are other people below them on the totem pool. This is a sad but true reality of human nature.

Well I don't feel the need to have people below me, whether in terms of material wealth or social status, to look down upon. What does that make me? Am I some kind of mutant human? A robot? A changeling?

[Orange Juche]

Ah, yes, the popular American myth of bettering oneself.

Well, that's based on the fact that America had about 150 years of relative economic growth, so each generation seemed to have better than the one before it... I think this myth grew out of that. Of course in the late 70s (and ever since) wages stagnated while productivity and profits still went up, yet the myth continues, and now it's just a clusterfuck.

[Black_Rose]

Well I don't feel the need to have people below me, whether in terms of material wealth or social status, to look down upon. What does that make me? Am I some kind of mutant human? A robot? A changeling?

It seems to be a propensity among the majority, perhaps conditioned by the media. Glad you are immune to it.

But doesn't that explain why the woman in the OP does not want increased financial security while bettering the prospects of those earning minimum wage. She does not want her relative status to be threatened. It is an irrational impulse, but it does drive some people.

[Einkarl]

First, do you know what it is like in Mexico? Do you live in Mexico? If you do, I will agree with your points. If not: shut up, since you don't know what you are talking about any more than I do.

Second, it doesn't matter if I agree with the law. It is a law nonetheless. Killing someone is illegal. Do I start shooting at cops to defend a murderer from being arrested?

I do not agree with a large portion of the "rules" of society, but as I am a member of and intended to stay a member of society I will follow its rules. I will follow the rules of society, while fighting against them.

Jesus, shut the fuck up. I actually am from Mexico and you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. You have no clue how hard it is to be an immigrant, especially if you're "illegal". All your comments reek of reactionary.

Why Hasn't some one restricted this clown?

[Alonso Quijano]

Jesus, shut the fuck up. I actually am from Mexico and you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about. You have no clue how hard it is to be an immigrant, especially if you're "illegal". All your comments reek of reactionary.

Why Hasn't some one restricted this clown?
You're in the Opposing Ideologies section, what did you expect other than reactionary tendencies?

Anyone interested in socialism should be welcome with open arms.

As long as someone doesn't write that Mexicans are genetically deranged I see no reason to restrict a user.

The OP comes from a society that instils fear of immigrants, but didn't come here to convince us that immigrants are bad.

But fear of immigrants has its causes as well. Flawed reason and failing to see other things are reasons to debate, not to restrict.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

[NGNM85]

What the OP is describing sounds a lot like the; 'kicking out the ladder' syndrome. You see this all the time, a family works their way out of poverty, moves into a nicer house, in a nicer neighborhood, then they start voting Republican, and railing against the same social spending that helped people like them, or their parents get out of poverty. There is a somewhat similar phenomenon at work in international relations, whereby rich nations, like the US, or the United Kingdom strongarm poor, underdeveloped countries into free trade agreements, when protectionist policies are largely responsible for their development into the economic powerhouses that they are, today.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

well thats good.

everyone else needs to chill out for real though. losing your shit at someone who says a dumb thing doesn't make you look like a militant as much as it makes you look like a screaming dumb baby. at least include some substance when you call people stupid. c'mon.

I'd assume people who have actually been on the dole for a large portion of their lives shouldn't have to tolerate fucking moronic reaganite crybabies who regurgitate thinly-veiled racist and right-wing garbage. I'd like to see entitled shits like red sunrise drop their job and live off foodstamps to see just how much of a 'privileged life' being unemployed is.

Anyone who buys into the dated protestant work-ethic is a running dog of the capitalists. This isn't rhetoric - it's fact. By shifting momentary (and exaggerated and unfounded) blame onto the poor and lowest rungs of society, you are ignoring the insane amount of privilege enjoyed by capitalists, who make immensely larger amounts of wealth than any and all of their employees (kind of the point) and do jack shit in terms of actual labour. That and the whole economic dynasties shit where Bill Gate's daughter is awarded 3 million dollars for coming out of the fucking uterus while the average Ethiopian worker in Addis Ababa could work for 2000 years straight under current wages and wouldn't even be able to afford your average middle-class American home. The blame of undeservedness should be reserved for the bourgeoisie, not people on the edge who barely struggle to get by as it is.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I'd assume people who have actually been on the dole for a large portion of their lives shouldn't have to tolerate fucking moronic reaganite crybabies who regurgitate thinly-veiled racist and right-wing garbage. I'd like to see entitled shits like red sunrise drop their job and live off foodstamps to see just how much of a 'privileged life' being unemployed is.

Anyone who buys into the dated protestant work-ethic is a running dog of the capitalists. This isn't rhetoric - it's fact. By shifting momentary (and exaggerated and unfounded) blame onto the poor and lowest rungs of society, you are ignoring the insane amount of privilege enjoyed by capitalists, who make immensely larger amounts of wealth than any and all of their employees (kind of the point) and do jack shit in terms of actual labour. That and the whole economic dynasties shit where Bill Gate's daughter is awarded 3 million dollars for coming out of the fucking uterus while the average Ethiopian worker in Addis Ababa could work for 2000 years straight under current wages and wouldn't even be able to afford your average middle-class American home. The blame of undeservedness should be reserved for the bourgeoisie, not people on the edge who barely struggle to get by as it is.

Well, bully for you that you can understand and articulate such notions. Unfortunately it's not the sort of thing which comes easily to most people, what with the nigh-omnipresent propaganda against welfare and in favour of the Protestant slavery ethic. In such circumstances is it any wonder that people can have difficulty intuitively grasping such facts?

Taking the time to explain things, as you have just done an admirable job of doing, is valuable because it's more likely to break up the pervading narrative on work and welfare, rather than trading insults.

[RedWaves]

it's the usual "pick yourself up by your own boot straps" bullshit.

[Bourgeois]

A couple of days ago I asked an American (middle class) friend of mine about shrinking the gap between the rich and poor; specifically I said: "Hypothetically speaking, wouldn't you prefer it if your husband didn't have to work two jobs to be able to live decently with the condition of having the working class get paid more and be able to afford to have a house and not struggle to get by?"
She said "No, I don't think minimum wagers deserve to get paid more because then they wouldn't strive to better themselves, that's the 'American way.' I'd rather have my husband work all day long rather than have simple workers get more for flipping burgers or something of the like."

In essence, she said "I don't want to make my life easier if it means shrinking the gap between me and the working class."

It's baffling, I'm wondering if there are many people who agree with that inherently mean-spirited mindset. Is it just me who finds it outrageous?

And why exactly is this an inherently mean-spirited mindset? I'm intrigued! :)

[#FF0000]

And why exactly is this an inherently mean-spirited mindset? I'm intrigued! :)

I can't speak for that poster but I think the issue is that the people he's talking about would rather see other people suffer than come closer to doing as well as them, for no reason whatsoever.

[Bourgeois]

I can't speak for that poster but I think the issue is that the people he's talking about would rather see other people suffer than come closer to doing as well as them, for no reason whatsoever.

"Suffer?" I was under the impression that jobs like "flipping burgers" is not suffering?

[Slavic]

"Suffer?" I was under the impression that jobs like "flipping burgers" is not suffering?

Maintaining a job "flipping burgers" is not suffering.

Maintaining a job "flipping burgers" in a capitalist society were your job is deemed so unimportant that your wages can not even guarantee you steady food and housing. That is suffering.

[#FF0000]

"Suffer?" I was under the impression that jobs like "flipping burgers" is not suffering?

Damn, son. Have you ever had a fast-food job?

Either way, I meant "suffer" as in "continue to make very little money". It's mean spirited because the people that user was talking about were saying "I'd rather other people make less money, even if their income has no effect on my income".

[Bourgeois]

Maintaining a job "flipping burgers" is not suffering.

Maintaining a job "flipping burgers" in a capitalist society were your job is deemed so unimportant that your wages can not even guarantee you steady food and housing. That is suffering.

Have you thought if there is a reason why such job may be deemed unimportant?


Damn, son. Have you ever had a fast-food job?

Either way, I meant "suffer" as in "continue to make very little money". It's mean spirited because the people that user was talking about were saying "I'd rather other people make less money, even if their income has no effect on my income".

The claim I saw was that his friend was not keen on rewarding mediocrity... There's a reason they make less money...

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I had much the same experience with one of my old coworkers. He's 21, this is his first job, and within a week he already felt superior to "burger-flippers" because we made $12/hour not the $8 minimum wage(and of course in the awesome irony of capitalism our labor was unproductive labor while "burger flipping" is productive labor). We go through the McDonald's drive thru and he tells me something like "look at those guys, flipping burgers for us. I look at these people now and think 'you're below me, you make my food for me *****'". Like what? Seriously? No way.

But people think like this. Like most oppressed marginalized people we see our oppression but we don't know how to deal with it so we take it out on ourselves because we don't want to be seen as weak within our own communities. Then we have the bourgoeis propaganda machine telling us that our situation is bad, therefore you need to work with us to get yourself out of your situation. The mission is to make you hate yourself, hate your community, hate your class. But we already know that most of the time it doesn't mean shit. At best you're most likely to get a promotion to manager, which when I worked at McDonalds was a 90 cents raise with a ton of more work while having the same duties as before and you just get blamed for all the failings that could happen. As for the upper management people, the corporate douchebags that come in and make everybody a nervous wreck who don't actually work at the stores; most of them are hired from outside of McDonalds. People with business degrees and shit who never had to do any of the burger flipping themselves. The whole work hard, work your way up, American dream is bullshit.

[empireofred]

Damn, son. Have you ever had a fast-food job?

Either way, I meant "suffer" as in "continue to make very little money". It's mean spirited because the people that user was talking about were saying "I'd rather other people make less money, even if their income has no effect on my income".

That's what I meant, i didn't think it needed further explanation. That guy (Bourgeois) was intentionally playing dumb.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Have you thought if there is a reason why such job may be deemed unimportant?it's not deemed unimportant, it's deskilled in order to make the burger flipper as a person interchangeable. If you have a pool of people who need to find wages and you ensure that their position is interchangeable, then you can pretty much name your terms as an employer. What do management programs recommend to middle class people when they fear their positions: make yourself indispensable. Well on the other end of things, most of the trajectory for working class positions by bosses is to prevent workers from being indispensable, to make positions insecure, keep people afraid and willing to do whatever it takes to keep the position.


The claim I saw was that his friend was not keen on rewarding mediocrity... There's a reason they make less money...well what kind of attitude is that, if we all had that view... Well no one would ever respond to the mediocre thinking and arguments of pro-capitalists.

If you think merit really has anything to do with wages, you don't know the first thing about capitalism.

[Jay NotApplicable]

Yeah, people are assholes like that. Up is down. Slavery is freedom.

[radiocaroline]

"it's called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it" - George Carlin

[Baseball]

it's not deemed unimportant, it's deskilled in order to make the burger flipper as a person interchangeable. If you have a pool of people who need to find wages and you ensure that their position is interchangeable, then you can pretty much name your terms as an employer. What do management programs recommend to middle class people when they fear their positions: make yourself indispensable. Well on the other end of things, most of the trajectory for working class positions by bosses is to prevent workers from being indispensable, to make positions insecure, keep people afraid and willing to do whatever it takes to keep the position.

Why would a socialist system not worry about improving the quality of its workforce? I mean, work needs to be completed in a socialist community as well. If workers do not need to make themselves "indispensable" in production, what is the impact of that upon production?


If you think merit really has anything to do with wages, you don't know the first thing about capitalism.

What does "merit" have to do with socialism? A problem of capitalism as defined here is that it forces workers to do "whatever it takes to keep the position." Why is this a value of which the socialist community would dispose?