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Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
11th November 2013, 05:46
I'm posting this in learning because I'd like to start a discussion on how exactly the question of indigenous people should be approached by the Communist movement from a Marxist perspective. Before we get started I think it'd be helpful to develop an understanding of a theoretical framework which could be used to approach this question. First off, it's important to understand that modern america is in essence a colonial state and that the act of displacing a native, under-developed, semi-feudal or tribal population with a colonial settler entity is called settler colonialism. JMP from MLM Mayhem wrote a good introductory paper on this subject that is short and I recommend that everyone read it:

http://www.davidpublishing.com/davidpublishing/Upfile/4/2/2013/2013040205685381.pdf

The important thing to recognize here is that the settler-colonialist entity that we have in the U.S, Canada and other colonial states is a direct continuation of early colonialism. Obviously colonialism has evolved over the years but the point that I am trying to make here is that the question of indigenous peoples simply didn't just disappear. You might not hear about it in the news but the colonial question is still very much a relevant aspect of the structure of American society that needs a fresh, concrete application of Marxism if there is to be any communist movement in that country. What needs to be grasped is the uniqueness of the question. as Franz Fanon said "“Marxist analysis should always be slightly stretched every time we have to do with the colonial problem". What I mean here is that the Marxist framework must be expanded if it is to deal with the question of national oppression. A quote from Stalin exemplifies what I think constitutes as the uniqueness of the question:

“Oppressed nationalities are usually oppressed not only as peasants and as urban working people, but also as nationalities, i.e., as the toilers of a definite nationality, language, culture, manner of life, habits and customs. The double oppression can not help revolutionising the labouring masses of the oppressed nationalities, cannot help impelling them to fight the principal force of oppression – capital."

There's also another article on black self-determination which I think is worth referencing even if it does not directly relate to the matter at hand. It isn't worth reading on its own because it is really little more than a context based sectarian tirade but there are some arguments within it that I think are relevant today.

http://www.marxists.org/history/erol/ncm-7/bl-introduction.htm

Here are a couple of quotes:


Yet, all these “revolutionaries” pursue a disgusting national chauvinist policy in regards to the national question in the U.S. They all deny that the U.S. is a prison-house of nations.... They consider that the struggles for self-determination of the Black and Chicano nations and the Natives peoples are “bourgeois nationalist” and “reactionary movements”. They have liquidated the national question within the U.S. from various perspectives such as: “all nationalism is reactionary;” “all nationalism is nationalism;” “industrialization and the dispersion of Blacks from the Black Belt have changed the concept of Black Nation;” etc. To them, the Black question is only a racial and class question.

The article continues:


In the interest of uniting the multi-national proletariat in the U.S. in the struggle to overthrow the bourgeois dictatorship and establish socialism, revolutionary communists in the U.S. must address the national question, especially the Black and Chicano national question. The proletariat from the various oppressed nationalities in the U.S. will not unite with the white American proletariat if the white proletariat and communists do not in deeds repudiate and fight against the annexations, national inequality, national privileges, national chauvinism and racism that their oppressor white nation propagates and implements on a daily basis. The narrow nationalism and “Bundist” deviations on the national question will not be eradicated unless and until the national chauvinism of the oppressor white nation is fought against and defeated. Failure to recognize the existence of oppressed nations within the U.S. and to uphold their right to self-determination will mean failure in accomplishing the socialist revolution in the U.S.

The article then quotes Marx in what I think is a key point:


England now possesses a working class divided into two hostile camps, English proletarians and Irish proletarians. The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who lowers his standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker he regards himself as a member of the ruling nation and consequently he becomes a tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself. He cherishes religious, social, and national prejudices against the Irish worker. His attitude towards him is much the same as that of the ’poor whites’ to the Negroes in the former slave states of the U.S.A. The Irishman pays him back with interest, in his own money. He sees in the English worker both the accomplice and the stupid tool of the English rulers in Ireland.

This antagonism is artificially kept alive and intensified by the press, the pulpit, the comic papers, in short, by all the means at the disposal of the ruling classes. This antagonism is the secret of the impotence of the English working class, despite its organization. It is the secret by which the capitalist class maintains its power. And the latter is quite aware of this


Indeed this also explains the impotence of American labor since the early fifties. As the Black movement arose, as the anti-war and student movements arose, the American proletariat was relatively quiet. Although this is due to the objective economic conditions of relative stabilization of capitalism at that time, this is not sufficient to explain the tremendous passivity of much of the white proletariat and the large section of it that regarded itself in comparison to Blacks “as a member of the ruling nation and consequently becomes a tool” of the American bourgeoisie against the Blacks. This strengthens the domination of American capital over all of the working class. These white workers see the Black workers as their competitors, who lower their standard of living. They cherish religious, social, national and racial prejudices towards Blacks. Of course, the Blacks pay them “back with interest” and see in them “the accomplice and the stupid tool of” the white rulers in America.


Some of you might be interested in reading the article and there are indeed other parts of it which are of value, but I thought that I'd do the kindness of presenting the relevant points in order to save time. Another document from time period on the black national question can also be re-appropriated for our purposes, I'll quote some important sections here:


The theory and practice of the Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP), under the slogan, “Workers Unite To Lead the Fight Against All Oppression!,” is a good teacher by negative example. This slogan is dangerous, not because it is wrong, but because it purposefully omits any recognition of the independent revolutionary significance and potential of the Black liberation movement. As practice has shown, the RCP insists that the Black liberation movement be subsumed within the multi-national labor movement, and must abandon its independence. This they term, “Building the fight against national oppression as a component of the overall class struggle.” In short, they liquidate the Black national movement as an independent revolutionary ally of labor. The trademark of the RCP is confusion and inconsistency on this issue, and they continue to speak of the “Black people’s struggle” and of the need for “an alliance”. Where is any RCP practice in building the Black liberation movement? There is none. Why? Because the RCP sees no need for it. In fact, they view the independent Black liberation movement as a threat to multi-national unity.


http://www.marxists.org/history/erol/ncm-5/bacu-2/resolution3.htm

Unlike the other document I personally recommend that you read it because it engages the topic in depth in brevity and in detail without being as unreadable as the other document. All of this brings me to what I want to say next.

The oppression of indigenous peoples is one of those "special oppressions". Alot of people on here are very well read and have good politics regarding the queer question and I think that there is a certain degree of overlap in how it is approached. The whole spiel by some that queer,woman and colonial oppression don't constitute "real" oppression since they aren't directly related to class and capital and therefore should not be engaged by Marxists is something that Marxist Feminists and radical queers have pointed out is patently false because both are apart of the totality of capitalist civilization and its structure and that the argument itself is objectively chauvinist as it lends its hand to support the oppression it claims to be neutral on. Of course then there is the argument made by the opportunist sections of the left that these questions are "divisive" and should be avoided in fear off offending the white proletariat but of course the obvious reply is that the material conditions are what divide the proletariat, not leftists and that these conditions must be engaged if there is to be a living marxism. Then there is the argument that there can be no solution to these questions until the revolutionary overthrow of capitalism and that they can not be posed til that moment. What is wrong with that argument and really all of these arguments is that they have a leftist drap for what in reality doesn't even merit the title "left opportunism" because it is clear that these "leftist" masks are just an attempt to appeal to right-wing conservatism and chauvinism within the workers movement. Since I'd rather not dwell on this too much I'll link a very short piece which deals with these common arguments and refutes them:

http://moufawad-paul.blogspot.com/2012/08/dividing-working-class.html

So what I would like to propose here is that we acknowledge all of the common objections to radical woman and queer politics and apply the same logic in refuting them to refuting the objections to indigenous politics and the politics of oppressed nations in America. These are "special" oppression that deserve "special" attention which should be reflected in theory and praxis and I think arguments against that are chauvinist for the same reason that the "left" opponents to queer politics are chauvinist. Again I know these issues should be engaged in greater length but I'd rather go in detail during the course of this discussion rather than here.

Furthermore another point that I think is the most important to emphasis is that the line of "unite and fight" entirely removes the agency from oppressed peoples and deprives them of the possibility of autonomous action while subordinating them to the politically dominate and strongest section of the working class; the white working class. Real unity can only be grasped as working class solidarity with the movement of oppressed indigenous peoples. As that infamous line from the Enfurt Programme goes "Socialism can only come about through the self-emancipation of the proletariat" it is also correct to say that the colonizers can not free the indigenous proletariat from the chains of imperialism and colonialism. In my opinion the only principled stance is applying the Leninist doctrine of revolutionary defeatism to the indigenous question even if that involves "stretching" it to a degree. Just as the ultimate goal for the organized communist worker is to defeat its own bourgeois, it must be the goal of any Communist worker within a colonial state to stand with the colonized people and to defeat his own nation while assisting the indigenous proletariat in destroying the colonial state which can only be an act of the indigenous peoples themselves.

I think it is too early in this attempt to begin an analysis of the structure of American society to present a coherent strategy of what an American Communist movement might look like. But I think that it is fair to say that there can be no revolutionary movement without the abolition of the vestige of colonialism. This doesn't mean that I envision a two stage revolution where these tasks are completed and then socialism can come afterwards. On the contrary what I am proposing is that in this era of atomization, that the proletariat does not act as a consistent social bloc except as a purely economic relation between the means of production and rather is a loose association of groups with differing and conflicting interests and that we can envision the most oppressed proletariat acting as the natural vanguard and leaders of the class as opposed to the labor aristocracy which has been thus far unable to provide such leadership and as opposed to certain deviationist trends which envision the working class as a homogeneous entity and elevates "the party" to the position of vanguard and assumes that being ideologically Communist makes one a member of the advanced section of the proletariat rather than the relation to capitalist society as a whole.


The reason why I posted this in learning is because what I have said here is simply a suggestion on how the question of indigenous peoples should be approached, I don't think that my thoughts on the question are complete enough for the formulation of a comprehensive theoretical framework to approach the question, nor do I think that I have devloped a theory which could translate into concrete Communist praxis on the question. So with this in mind I am asking you all to share your thoughts and some tools to study so a more comprehensive look at this neglected question could become possible.

I did find this suggested reading list by an indigenous communist organization in Canada and while I disagree with their political line I'll link it here and as I study I'll post what I see as important tid-bits that merit discussion:

http://onkwehonwerising.wordpress.com/resources-for-study/basic-reading-list/

blake 3:17
11th November 2013, 07:01
Great! The Marxist Left has often assumed that native peoples were done with & over with, though that's changed a bit in the past decade. I look forward to reading the papers you've linked to & will comment when I've gone through them.

Flying Purple People Eater
11th November 2013, 07:12
I'm posting this in learning because I'd like to start a discussion on how exactly the question of indigenous people should be approached by the Communist movement from a Marxist perspective. Before we get started I think it'd be helpful to develop an understanding of a theoretical framework which could be used to approach this question. First off, it's important to understand that modern america is in essence a colonial state and that the act of displacing a native, under-developed, semi-feudal or tribal population with a colonial settler entity is called settler colonialism. JMP from MLM Mayhem wrote a good introductory paper on this subject that is short and I recommend that everyone read it:

http://www.davidpublishing.com/davidpublishing/Upfile/4/2/2013/2013040205685381.pdf

The important thing to recognize here is that the settler-colonialist entity that we have in the U.S, Canada and other colonial states is a direct continuation of early colonialism. Obviously colonialism has evolved over the years but the point that I am trying to make here is that the question of indigenous peoples simply didn't just disappear. You might not hear about it in the news but the colonial question is still very much a relevant aspect of the structure of American society that needs a fresh, concrete application of Marxism if there is to be any communist movement in that country. What needs to be grasped is the uniqueness of the question. as Franz Fanon said "“Marxist analysis should always be slightly stretched every time we have to do with the colonial problem". What I mean here is that the Marxist framework must be expanded if it is to deal with the question of national oppression. A quote from Stalin exemplifies what I think constitutes as the uniqueness of the question:

“Oppressed nationalities are usually oppressed not only as peasants and as urban working people, but also as nationalities, i.e., as the toilers of a definite nationality, language, culture, manner of life, habits and customs. The double oppression can not help revolutionising the labouring masses of the oppressed nationalities, cannot help impelling them to fight the principal force of oppression – capital."

There's also another article on black self-determination which I think is worth referencing even if it does not directly relate to the matter at hand. It isn't worth reading on its own because it is really little more than a context based sectarian tirade but there are some arguments within it that I think are relevant today.

http://www.marxists.org/history/erol/ncm-7/bl-introduction.htm

Here are a couple of quotes:



The article continues:



The article then quotes Marx in what I think is a key point:




Some of you might be interested in reading the article and there are indeed other parts of it which are of value, but I thought that I'd do the kindness of presenting the relevant points in order to save time. Another document from time period on the black national question can also be re-appropriated for our purposes, I'll quote some important sections here:



http://www.marxists.org/history/erol/ncm-5/bacu-2/resolution3.htm

Unlike the other document I personally recommend that you read it because it engages the topic in depth in brevity and in detail without being as unreadable as the other document. All of this brings me to what I want to say next.

The oppression of indigenous peoples is one of those "special oppressions". Alot of people on here are very well read and have good politics regarding the queer question and I think that there is a certain degree of overlap in how it is approached. The whole spiel by some that queer,woman and colonial oppression don't constitute "real" oppression since they aren't directly related to class and capital and therefore should not be engaged by Marxists is something that Marxist Feminists and radical queers have pointed out is patently false because both are apart of the totality of capitalist civilization and its structure and that the argument itself is objectively chauvinist as it lends its hand to support the oppression it claims to be neutral on. Of course then there is the argument made by the opportunist sections of the left that these questions are "divisive" and should be avoided in fear off offending the white proletariat but of course the obvious reply is that the material conditions are what divide the proletariat, not leftists and that these conditions must be engaged if there is to be a living marxism. Then there is the argument that there can be no solution to these questions until the revolutionary overthrow of capitalism and that they can not be posed til that moment. What is wrong with that argument and really all of these arguments is that they have a leftist drap for what in reality doesn't even merit the title "left opportunism" because it is clear that these "leftist" masks are just an attempt to appeal to right-wing conservatism and chauvinism within the workers movement. Since I'd rather not dwell on this too much I'll link a very short piece which deals with these common arguments and refutes them:

http://moufawad-paul.blogspot.com/2012/08/dividing-working-class.html

So what I would like to propose here is that we acknowledge all of the common objections to radical woman and queer politics and apply the same logic in refuting them to refuting the objections to indigenous politics and the politics of oppressed nations in America. These are "special" oppression that deserve "special" attention which should be reflected in theory and praxis and I think arguments against that are chauvinist for the same reason that the "left" opponents to queer politics are chauvinist. Again I know these issues should be engaged in greater length but I'd rather go in detail during the course of this discussion rather than here.

Furthermore another point that I think is the most important to emphasis is that the line of "unite and fight" entirely removes the agency from oppressed peoples and deprives them of the possibility of autonomous action while subordinating them to the politically dominate and strongest section of the working class; the white working class. Real unity can only be grasped as working class solidarity with the movement of oppressed indigenous peoples. As that infamous line from the Enfurt Programme goes "Socialism can only come about through the self-emancipation of the proletariat" it is also correct to say that the colonizers can not free the indigenous proletariat from the chains of imperialism and colonialism. In my opinion the only principled stance is applying the Leninist doctrine of revolutionary defeatism to the indigenous question even if that involves "stretching" it to a degree. Just as the ultimate goal for the organized communist worker is to defeat its own bourgeois, it must be the goal of any Communist worker within a colonial state to stand with the colonized people and to defeat his own nation while assisting the indigenous proletariat in destroying the colonial state which can only be an act of the indigenous peoples themselves.

I think it is too early in this attempt to begin an analysis of the structure of American society to present a coherent strategy of what an American Communist movement might look like. But I think that it is fair to say that there can be no revolutionary movement without the abolition of the vestige of colonialism. This doesn't mean that I envision a two stage revolution where these tasks are completed and then socialism can come afterwards. On the contrary what I am proposing is that in this era of atomization, that the proletariat does not act as a consistent social bloc except as a purely economic relation between the means of production and rather is a loose association of groups with differing and conflicting interests and that we can envision the most oppressed proletariat acting as the natural vanguard and leaders of the class as opposed to the labor aristocracy which has been thus far unable to provide such leadership and as opposed to certain deviationist trends which envision the working class as a homogeneous entity and elevates "the party" to the position of vanguard and assumes that being ideologically Communist makes one a member of the advanced section of the proletariat rather than the relation to capitalist society as a whole.


The reason why I posted this in learning is because what I have said here is simply a suggestion on how the question of indigenous peoples should be approached, I don't think that my thoughts on the question are complete enough for the formulation of a comprehensive theoretical framework to approach the question, nor do I think that I have devloped a theory which could translate into concrete Communist praxis on the question. So with this in mind I am asking you all to share your thoughts and some tools to study so a more comprehensive look at this neglected question could become possible.

I did find this suggested reading list by an indigenous communist organization in Canada and while I disagree with their political line I'll link it here and as I study I'll post what I see as important tid-bits that merit discussion:

http://onkwehonwerising.wordpress.com/resources-for-study/basic-reading-list/

Onkwehonwe is a nutty third-worldist sect. The reading list however is for the most part good - EDIT actually scratch that, it's fairly shit.


And since when has the left ignored indigenous peoples and the oppression of said groups? Maybe in America or something, but in most countries where this has happened indigenous issues are hot on the agenda for most left-wing organizations. I've never seen any major left-wing organizations demonise indigenous groups aside from Russification era USSR and some of the old Turkish political parties with Kurds.

Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
11th November 2013, 07:16
Great! The Marxist Left has often assumed that native peoples were done with & over with, though that's changed a bit in the past decade. I look forward to reading the papers you've linked to & will comment when I've gone through them.

Thanks! I think it is particularly important for the Marxist left to grapple with these questions because I see alot of Communists either ignore these questions or I see them praising the struggle of the indigenous struggles abroad without paying attention to those at home. I think it is unfortunately correct to say that this ignorance is unfortunately caused by an unwillingness of a lot of communists to engage issues within their own national context is due to a certain degree of unconscious contempt they have for their own working class and indifference they have for their own colonial apparatus. Though I think that at least in regard to worker's issues we've seen alot of Communist organizations really shine through in engaging class struggle instead of merely talking about them in their papers but I still don't see alot of groups make an in-depth analysis of the indigenous question which I think is an extremly relevant problem which should not be overlooked. (and this is of course a very broad observation hence why I did not mention any specific groups, however I do think the "ten theses" posted on Kasama recently is within this tendency of unfortunate internalized chauvinism towards indigenous peoples)

And I am also looking forward to reading these works on the reading list. What I appreciate about this list is that it contains a diversity of perspectives from different backgrounds which will definitely be useful in learning about the problem, thus allowing me to engage perspectives I otherwise would ignore due to ideological disagreements. Of course that isn't to say I endorse all of the contents of this reading list simply because I haven't even started reading it yet :P


Onkwehonwe is a nutty third-worldist sect. The reading list however is for the most part good.


As I said before I don't endorse their political line but unlike most of those groups they do have organic links to the movements they support. And as you said the reading list is good on its own merit.

Also Dodger was kind enough to send me some more links in a message:
Here is a news source on indigenous issues
http://bulatlat.com/main/category/ip/

And here is a collection of articles from the Communist Party of the Philippines on indigenous issues in the Philippines
http://www.philippinerevolution.net/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&keyword=indigenous

Thanks Dodger!

Flying Purple People Eater
11th November 2013, 07:23
As I said before I don't endorse their political line but unlike most of those groups they do have organic links to the movements they support. And as you said the reading list is good on its own merit.

I did, until I saw the MTW shit. Some of the reading list is very good, it's true, but I'd take anything other than objective historical and statistical books with a grain of salt.

And which 'most of those groups'? I could link you some organizations barracking for indigenous rights - which are very large and connected with the movement - that are both left-wing and are most certainly not 'unabashedly third-worldist'.

Sinister Cultural Marxist
11th November 2013, 07:26
IMO the traditional analysis of indigenous struggles by Marxists tends to be poor. There are really two options I've come across:

(1) Identify indigenous peoples as "backwards classes". They are nomads, live peasant lifestyles, occasionally eschew types of technology and endorse stupid mythological metaphysics about nature, the sun and their rotting ancestors. The proletariat should drag them out of their historical stupor and into the modern era, by force if necessary, just like every other peasant and nomad.

(2) Identify indigenous peoples as noble savages. Indigenous people are harmless, ethically pure braves who lived egalitarian lives without class and tribal struggle before Europeans arrived. They used every part of the animal, worshipped gaia earthmother pachamama and were all matriarchal instead of patriarchal. Colonialism ruined these otherwise idyllic cultures and the best thing that the Proletariat can do is blindly adopt indigenous culture and lifestyles.


Both views are painfully naive, but each is compelling for different reasons. Really we should be standing in dialogue with these cultures, learning from them what we can and teaching them what we can. This is really what most indigenous people who I've met want anyways.


Some interesting questions I have regard the extent to which these cultures follow communitarian communist models. Certainly this was a facet of Mayan culture which motivated the Zapatista uprising of the 90s. It's also clear though that the market exists in these communities too. Certainly, most indigenous communities in the US are well embedded in the market now - especially with the number of tribes which have become dependent on casinos that are partially tribe-owned.

Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
11th November 2013, 07:28
I did, until I saw the MTW shit. Some of the reading list is very good, it's true, but I'd take anything other than objective historical and statistical books with a grain of salt.

And which 'most of those groups'? I could link you some organizations barracking for indigenous rights - which are very large and connected with the movement - that are both left-wing and are most certainly not 'unabashedly third-worldist'.

By "most groups" I mean third-worldists, not indigenous groups. I mean they are the only sect in which the mere title "third worldism" isn't that ironic (in the sense that they consider indigenous people within the third world)

And yea I just realized after looking at this list that alot more of this is third-worldism that I originally thought. Still worth studying though but of course I'll take it with a grain of salt. Of course if any one else has any recommendations then I'd try them, not that I am close minded to what the third worldists have to say

The Garbage Disposal Unit
11th November 2013, 17:14
Often more of a source of news and analysis than "theory" per se, but I'd like to recommend Gord "Zigzag" Hill's excellent blog at Warrior Publications (http://warriorpublications.wordpress.com/). Gord was an anarchist before (re)connecting with what-I-will-describe-incorrectly-probably as the pan-Indigenous Warrior tradition, his artwork is great, and his analysis is consistently critical.

Gambino
11th November 2013, 17:42
Is it possible that the Marxist approach on indigenous people is based on the fact that they are not proletarians, hence incapable of starting socialist revolutions, and their culture is pre illuminist, therefore extremely unscientific and theocratic?


It seems that Marx wasnīt very keen on peasant revolutions, and, for most parts, indigenous people are peasants, hunter gatherers or even nomads.


Didnīt some Latin American movements (Brazilian, Mexican, Peruvian) and European intellectuals of the new left, like post-structuralism, reread Marxism to accommodate the indigenous people and their cultural relevance?

Sinister Cultural Marxist
12th November 2013, 10:58
Is it possible that the Marxist approach on indigenous people is based on the fact that they are not proletarians, hence incapable of starting socialist revolutions, and their culture is pre illuminist, therefore extremely unscientific and theocratic?


It seems that Marx wasnīt very keen on peasant revolutions, and, for most parts, indigenous people are peasants, hunter gatherers or even nomads.


Yeah and Marx could be wrong. He himself changed his views over time as far as I know, so he was aware of that fact. Being a Marxist doesn't mean dogmatically holding to every argument he made on faith alone.

That said many indigenous people are now workers too, though many in Latin America remain peasants (or in some remote corners, nomads) who are tied to the land. That shouldn't be seen as a mark against them however, but I don't care right now to go into the arguments of why - perhaps if someone challenges me on that I'll bother.



Didnīt some Latin American movements (Brazilian, Mexican, Peruvian) and European intellectuals of the new left, like post-structuralism, reread Marxism to accommodate the indigenous people and their cultural relevance?Yep, the Maoist Mexicans in the EZLN even ended up dropping Maoism in favor of indigenous quasi-socialism, which IMO has worked better for them than rehashing old Trotskyist or Stalinist arguments from the 40s and before.

erupt
12th November 2013, 19:26
Yeah and Marx could be wrong. He himself changed his views over time as far as I know, so he was aware of that fact. Being a Marxist doesn't mean dogmatically holding to every argument he made on faith alone.

That said many indigenous people are now workers too, though many in Latin America remain peasants (or in some remote corners, nomads) who are tied to the land. That shouldn't be seen as a mark against them however, but I don't care right now to go into the arguments of why - perhaps if someone challenges me on that I'll bother.

Yep, the Maoist Mexicans in the EZLN even ended up dropping Maoism in favor of indigenous quasi-socialism, which IMO has worked better for them than rehashing old Trotskyist or Stalinist arguments from the 40s and before.

I'm sure if Marx was alive he'd welcome all criticism and consider it constructive. He wasn't an all-knowing, never-erring theorist. The vast majority of his theories and writings are, no doubt, excellent and prove/proved to be correct. This doesn't mean, however, that everything he thought is 100% correct.

Nomadic and peasant indigenous groups still have plenty of potential in revolutionary activity, in my opinion. Generally, they would be much more open to collectivization; their own micro-societies are usually very collectivized, just not exactly in the Marxist manner.

Not ostracizing the religious community with their quasi-socialism, instead of militantly opposing it, also helped them a lot, in my opinion. It allowed more ordinary people to be involved, and strength in numbers certainly wouldn't have negative repercussions for their movement/s.

blake 3:17
13th November 2013, 02:09
@YAbM --

Yes absolutely there needs to be a rejection of a homogeneous conception of the proletariat. I'm not so sure that Marxist methods are always that useful in addressing questions of oppression and specifically the oppression of indigenous peoples. To be honest, I've found much more useful work from liberals on issues related to First Nations.

The other related issue is how Marxists & socialists relate to nature which is huge.

blake 3:17
13th November 2013, 03:03
Colonialism in action.

From yesterday:


TORONTO, ON – Social media lit up with outrage this afternoon with video of an Onkwehon:we War Veteran, Davyn Calfchild, being arrested at a public Toronto Remembrance Day Ceremony. The video showed Davyn refusing to put away two traditional flags – the Hiawatha and the Unity Flag – and refusing to leave the public ceremony at the request of Toronto Police.

Davyn, who served in the Former Yugoslavia from 1992 – 1997, repeatedly tells the officer that he is a War Veteran and is defiant and adamant about his right to be at the ceremony. As the officer continues to make the ask to put away the flags and or leave – Davyn responds, “This is supposed to be for us – so fuck off!” The officer then moves to arrest and remove both Davyn and two friends with him – one of whom was videotaping the incident.

The flags were all confiscated and the men were held by the Police until the end of the ceremony and then released without ticket or charge.

http://dylanxpowell.com/2013/11/12/what-crime-did-i-commit-showing-up-with-my-flag/

Zealot
13th November 2013, 04:24
I'm an indigenous person in my country and we are all 100% proletarian or lumpen proletariat. That said, anti-authority, anti-colonial sentiment still runs strong and we've managed to keep our culture alive. For a number of reasons, indigenous struggle here has been relatively successful in a way and some whites will often complain of indigenous "privileges". In reality, there's a lot of work to be done but there is now an indigenous bourgeoisie that often claims their class interests are one and the same with the struggle. So for instance, when the state returns land to a tribe they tout this as a victory for the struggle, which is bullshit since a lot of these "tribes" are basically corporations replete with their own board of directors who run the lands like a capitalist enterprise and most indigenous people don't benefit at all from the land claims. Sadly, even some leftist organisations here support these land claims but then again it's hard not to when these are traditionally tribal lands that were stolen by colonialism. Articulating a position on things like this can be quite difficult.

FreedomForAll
18th November 2013, 11:26
They need to be integrated into society... when we have an actual society we can appreciate. Until then they are pretty much outsiders of the class struggle at this point, at least the ones who segregate. The rest are basically in the same category as other people.

The Garbage Disposal Unit
19th November 2013, 17:15
They need to be integrated into society... when we have an actual society we can appreciate. Until then they are pretty much outsiders of the class struggle at this point, at least the ones who segregate. The rest are basically in the same category as other people.

I see you've really put a lot of thought into understanding colonialism. Thank-you for this insightful post. [/sarcasm]

For real though, attitudes like this are precisely why important "natural" alliances between anti-colonial and settler left struggles often fail to materialize. Dogmatic Eurocentric Marxism, applied without any sense of nuance or particularity, is a barrier, in this context, to developing class struggle.

As I mentioned in another thread, the mantra of the residential schools reframed as "Kill the Indian, save the worker" is no less vile.

blake 3:17
19th November 2013, 22:11
Nomadic and peasant indigenous groups still have plenty of potential in revolutionary activity, in my opinion. Generally, they would be much more open to collectivization; their own micro-societies are usually very collectivized, just not exactly in the Marxist manner.


One of the best political talks was from someone who'd been active as a sort of Guevarist guerrilla fighter in the late 60s. They were hoping to collectivize land which -- guess what? -- was already collective.

The main point being is that they had to learn from the indigenous peasantry, not try to lead or instruct them.

Venas Abiertas
19th November 2013, 23:12
Good posts from Sinister and Garbage Disposal above.

Indigenous people have their own "thang" which goes back thousands of years before Marx, Columbus, and even Moses. They are aware of Western thinking and they accept some of it and reject the rest. As Garbage said above, "Eurocentric Dogmatic Marxism" has little relevance or interest for them and in fact has driven many potential comrades away from leftist movements. Witness what happened to Che in Bolivia.

Many Westerners don't realize that the indigenous peoples of the Americas mounted a continuous resistance to colonialism for five hundred years. Wars against the oppressors continued unabated through the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th centuries, in most cases, with little or no assistance from outside. Indigenous peoples developed and lived their own versions of communalism or collectivism for millenium, all without benefit of Das Kapital or What is To Be Done? They have been the protagonists in the great social movements in Latin America in the last few decades, especially in Mexico, Ecuador and Bolivia, but also in Paraguay, Chile, and Brazil, and are making their voices heard in Honduras, (http://www.rightsaction.org/action-content/honduras-berta-caceres-and-other-copinh-members-targets-legal-political-persecution) Guatemala, and Colombia as well.

The "utopian horizon" of the Andean Amerindian is the concept of sumak kawsay, or "balanced living." It is the idea of developing a society where all aspects of life, including human work and leisure, artistic, cultural and spiritual experiences, and respect for nature, are all included and maintained in harmony with each other. This is not eco-freak, tree-hugger blather. It is a practical, working system that has been utilized for thousands of years and sustained several great civilizations. Indigenous leaders in the Americas have studied Marx and Engels and other Western socialist thinkers but do not believe that they are the sole source of ideas and authority on building alternatives to capitalist exploitation and alienation.

Here is a non-politically oriented webpage that discusses sumak kawsay:

http://www.pachamama.org/sumak-kawsay

Indigenous peoples conform a large percentage of the population of Latin America; in some countries they are a majority and we will be hearing a lot more about them in the future.

Venas Abiertas
19th November 2013, 23:27
I would also like to mention, although they are not a popular group on this forum for several reasons, a Marxist-Maoist inspired movement in Peru called Sendero Luminoso or "Shining Path." I mention it because although its founder was a white university professor, most of its adherents were Peruvian indigenous people and with no help whatsoever from any outside power, or even financial backers, and with an army composed of the poorest and most marginalized inhabitants of South America, it succeeded at one point in controlling over one-third of the national territory of Peru including about half of the nation's capital. It demonstrated, the same as in Algeria or Vietnam or Iraq, that huge sophisticated armies are not needed to bring a capitalist state to its knees.

Many reading this post may also not be aware that Sendero did a lot of base work in its communities both in urban and rural areas. In spite of its many defects, this movement shows that no capitalist state is invulnerable, not even with the help of the mighty USA and its billions in resources.

BBC 4 did an interesting report on Sendero back in 1990 which is worth watching if for no other reason that just to see how the group operated and what some of its integrants were like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aPCcC6tSUQ&list=PLho60tK-JerweYgggpDPiook_pbbnNqpt&index=30