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Edelweiss
18th January 2004, 07:42
Most of you probaply have no idea about what's going on in the radical Left here in Germany, and probaply don't really care, but nevertheless I think it's interesting for you to know what is going on here, also I'm curious for your reactions.

First, the situiation is truely fucked up. The radical Left is splitted into two wings, both leaded by hardliners of their faction. On the one side the so called "Antideutsche", the "anti-Germans". I guess most of you will be already very irritated by that name alone, but the German radical Left is tradionally very anti-national since WWII, for good reasons IMO. The German nation, it's values, generally the "Deutschtum" ("Germanhood"?), German national pride was always fought and pushed back, the Left saw it as their historical duty to fight German nationalism from within. A "tradional" leftist slogan is "Deutschland verrecke" (Germany puke off) for example. So the radical Left in Germany always had been kind of "anti-German", but the faction which is now known as the anti-Germans here goes far further than that.
They have developed out of relics of the Maoist/Stalinist sects of the 70s after the unification of Germany, and as direct result of it and new German ambitions to become a great power, their first organized group was called the "Anti-German Communists", but in the meanwhile they also get support from the anti-fascist/AFA spectrum. What is making them so unique, probaply worldwide within the radical Left (and so more German than they would ever admit...), is that they are uncompromisingly pro-zionist and pro-American. Many leftists in Germany (including myself) supporting the right of Isreal to exist as a result of the holocaust, but the anti-Germans not only supporting the right of Isreal to exist, they are supporting the current foreign politics of Isreal by Sharon in Palistine, and they are also supporting the US war on Iraq (!). They are justifyng that with the alleged anti-semitic nature of the worldwide anti-imperialist resististance against the war, for them the war is fully justified, because it's fought against an "enemy of Israel". (Their argumentation reminds me very much of the argumentation of the American right wingers here in the discussion at Che-Lives in OI...) They are totally focusing their ideology on the Palestine-Isreal conflict, for them the Palestinians are one fascist, anti-semitic mob who's only interest it is to drive the Jews in the sea. Everyone who shows the slightest support or even solidaity for the rights of the Palestinians is called an anti-semite, also anti-zionism is the same as anti-semitism for them, they have a truely paranoid world view. Another justification of their pro-US standing is the role of the USA as a liberator from Nazi fascism.
Admitingly they are rightfully criticising anti-semitic tendencies within the Left, and also the unbalanced anti-American attitude of parts the German Left, who often totally ignores the growing German imperialism, and which also often representing a rather narrow minded criticism of capitalism. But their conclusions in supporting the US imerpialism are of course more than outrageous. Nevertheless in their analyses and theory the pretty profound and intecutal, they are heavily influenced by the Frankfurt school and Theodor W. Adorno. A less superficial, and much more indeep and complete description about the anti-German theory can be found HERE (http://volkerradke.looplab.org/sonderweg-en.html).
A short experpt on how they explain their support of the US as communists:

At present, there is no chance of a system change towards a new, better socialism. There are however the USA, with a bloody history behind and probably before them, who have however never sunk as far as to lead "total wars" or to exterminate complete peoples. America - its economic, political and military power and its "cultural imperialism", which has influenced the highly nazified East German youth far too little - still forms the most important obstacle against German ambitions. This is the best hope which anti-fascists presently have, which shows how far we are distant from conditions where humans can be more than "a degraded, an enslaved, an abandoned, a miserable being" (Marx).


On the other side we have the "AntiImps", which are pretty much like the (communist) radical Left probaply is in most western countries. In a few "anti-pro" terms: anti-zionist, anti-imperialist, pro-Palestinian, anti-American, and of course with support of national(ist), anti-imperialist freedom struggles in the 3rd world. Like I already said, the anti-Germans are often rightfully criticising the "AntiImps", but they are going much too far with their criticism, and come to the wrong conclusions IMO.

To illustrate you the situation, a few pics from a anti-fascist counter action to a Nazi march, just a few days ago (I took those from a Nazi site, that's why the faces of the fascist scum are disguised):

http://www.che-lives.com/malte/antifa1.jpg
The Anti-Germans

http://www.che-lives.com/malte/scum.jpg
the Nazi march

As you can see the anti-Germans are waving US and Isreal flags, the fascists are waving Palestian flags, that support of the German fascist for Palestine is an important reason for the alligations of anti-Germans that there is a common anti-semitic mob of the radical German Left and Right, but for the anti-Germans everyone outside their sect is part of that "anti-semitic mob". The waving of US flags was ourse not only a provocation against the Nazis, but also against all non-anti-German anti-fascists at the counter-action, and it actually came to physical confrontations beween the anti-fascists.
Although the anti-Germans rightfully say they are not and they don't want to be part part of the German left anymore, the conflict between the two factions is paralyzing the German radical Left, it's now in a disastrous condition, the discussion doesn't seem to be about solving the actual issues, mainly Isreal-Palestine, but about vanities and "who is right". That it actually comes to physical fights bewen the factions is a new quality and an escalation of the conflict.

Now you have an imagination about how fucked the Left in Germany is, it must all sound pretty ridiculous to you. As you can imagine I'm very frustrared about it, and don't have much ambitions to get active anymore, as many Leftists who are kind of beween the two fronts (which is still the majority). A few dogmatic fuckers are totally ruining the Left, and that in times where radical leftist resistance against government politics is more important than ever. It's a shame.

(*
18th January 2004, 07:59
Whoa.

I started a thread in theory a while back...
circular or linear? (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=6&t=18995&hl=linear)
I figured that some people can be so far l"eft", that then end up being "right"

No offense, but some of the so called leftists there are confused. What are the reasons behind the Pro-Israeli/Zionism/American fervor?

Edelweiss
18th January 2004, 08:03
Originally posted by (*@Jan 18 2004, 10:59 AM
No offense, but some of the so called leftists there are confused. What are the reasons behind the Pro-Israeli/Zionism/American fervor?
I think I'm giving an explaination in my post, it's a very German phenomen I guess.

革命者
18th January 2004, 09:09
Holy Sh*t!!

You should move to Belgium-- not as radical, in a way, and with the "socialists"(what's left of their id.) in government. PVDA is also good in Belgium.
Plus they were anti-war with the whole Iraq issue.

Or Holland-- probably too radical for you, but still good.
GREAT potential!

Edelweiss
18th January 2004, 09:16
Originally posted by æ@Jan 18 2004, 12:09 PM
Or Holland-- probably too radical for you, but still good.
GREAT potential!
LOL, to radical for me...? Why do you think that? I very much doubt that the dutch Left is more radical than the German BTW...at least if you judge that based on the amount of militant action.

Monty Cantsin
18th January 2004, 09:24
And I always thought that european left parts had it worked out. You hear a lot of stuff about the greens being in power but then I don’t really know what there like in germany and other places in europe.

Edelweiss
18th January 2004, 09:42
Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 12:24 PM
And I always thought that european left parts had it worked out. You hear a lot of stuff about the greens being in power but then I don’t really know what there like in germany and other places in europe.
Don't won't to desillusionize you, the German Greens are the founder of the worldwide Green party movement...but probaply the American Greens are that what the German Greens where 20 years ago, now they have went the way that nearly every leftist party goes which is in power in a western bourgois state: they have become a bunch of reactionary, neo-liberal fuckers. They are backing crimes like the war on Kossovo, or the current abolishment of the German welfare state. There are some expetions, some Green politicians in the national patliamant and at the root of the party are respectable, but overall they are a lost case. The only thing you could give them some credit for is some aspects the enviromental politics which they are in charge for with their minister, like the abolishment of nuclear power and the support of alternative energy, or the conistent support of the Kyoto climate protocol.

革命者
18th January 2004, 09:45
Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 12:24 PM
And I always thought that european left parts had it worked out. You hear a lot of stuff about the greens being in power but then I don’t really know what there like in germany and other places in europe.
Most Greens choose for a more moderate ideology (since protecting the environment alone isn't one, obviously ), one which does nothing to fight the neo-liberals, and refered to as social-liberal. A contradiction in terms IMO.

What i mean by radical, Malte, (not by any means more radical than in Germany itself) is that they do, to a great extent, condemn Israel, for not only being religious imperialists, but also for existing as a autonome state in former Palestine.

Although that's of course quite different from driving them in the sea. :)

Also, you can see some - good - lessons from Mao brought in action.

But there's a discipline which goes further than the german (parlementarian) left, as i see it. But i could be wrong.

And to top it of. Our biggest communist party isn't embarassed to say they want to make all big bussiness state-owned.

YKTMX
18th January 2004, 23:49
And I thought British politics were confusing :unsure:

redstar2000
19th January 2004, 01:46
Most of you probably have no idea about what's going on in the radical Left here in Germany, and probably don't really care...

I had no idea and I think your report, Malte, was fascinating. I very much urge you to update us from time to time in the future. The "English-speaking" left is very ignorant of European politics...often all we know is what gets "filtered" through the bourgeois media like the BBC. Sometimes, I get a bit of news from Italy and Spain through the Anarchist News Service translations. But yours is the first sensible summary of the German situation that I have read.

I do have some questions.

Are there message boards in Germany "like" Che-Lives? If not, would it be practical to set one up?

Are there any "promising" left groups there...perhaps in the Luxemburg tradition? Even if very small, such a group could offer an "alternative" to this dismaying situation.

Is there a decent left newspaper...one that could be properly critical of both of these tendencies? Are there people that could establish such a paper?

Do the "anti-Germans" also exist in Austria and/or German-speaking Swiss cantons?

Do the "anti-Germans" concentrate in particular parts of Germany, or are they spread out over the whole country? Who is stronger in Berlin and the other major German cities? And who is getting stronger and who weaker?

How does the German bourgeois media handle this spectacle of pro-U.S. imperialism "leftists"? What effects do these displays of American flags have on ordinary German workers?

How has the old East German "Party of Democratic Socialism" reacted to this development?

I could probably bother you with some more questions...I think the situation of the left in your country is extremely important--much more so than the still marginal left in the U.S.

The more you write about this stuff, the better I'll like it.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

Saint-Just
19th January 2004, 12:36
http://www.kommunistische-partei-deutschlands.de/

That is the Communist Party of Germany. If I could read their site I could tell if they were pro-imperialist or not, but I doubt they are.

Its a good idea for one to reject national chauvanism, however the manner in which it is being done in Germay seems rather extreme. On one hand it will destroy any German national chauvanism, by supporting the U.S. and Israel. However, it restricts or removes entirely most other left-wing ideas.

Edelweiss
19th January 2004, 12:55
Originally posted by Chairman [email protected] 19 2004, 03:36 PM
http://www.kommunistische-partei-deutschlands.de/

That is the Communist Party of Germany. If I could read their site I could tell if they were pro-imperialist or not, but I doubt they are.

Its a good idea for one to reject national chauvanism, however the manner in which it is being done in Germay seems rather extreme. On one hand it will destroy any German national chauvanism, by supporting the U.S. and Israel. However, it restricts or removes entirely most other left-wing ideas.
This is NOT the real, historical KPD, but some stupid, tiny, little "anti-revisionist" Stalinist sect which was founded by SED (DDR state party) cadres after the German unification. The real KPD was entirely banned in the 50s, and re-founded as DKP (http://www.dkp.de/) with a modified party progame which confesses to the German constitution. They are still the biggest German communist party, but nevertheless lost about about 60% of their members after the fall of the USSR, which pretty much funding the party.

redstar: I'll reply to your questions later...

Saint-Just
19th January 2004, 12:59
Yes, I had a good idea that they would be anti-revisionists.

Anyway, in your view is there a problem with the DKP? Surely they are AntiImps.

In what way are the anti-German's criticisms of the AntiImps relevent to what you regard as progressive?

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr
19th January 2004, 13:23
I took a look at the site through Babelfish. It doesn't to have appear to have been updated in some time...

Edelweiss
20th January 2004, 02:36
Are there message boards in Germany "like" Che-Lives? If not, would it be practical to set one up?

There are, most of the Internet discussion is going on on Indymedia Germany I would say, although it's not really a discussion board. But there are a lot of smaller leftist boards like Che-Lives, the by far biggest political discussion forum is Dol2Day (http://www.dol2day.com), I'm posting there sporadicly. Although it's not really a exlusive leftist community, it's also more an online game, a "democracy simulation", where you can join parties of the whole political spectrum, from communist to almost fascist.


Are there any "promising" left groups there...perhaps in the Luxemburg tradition? Even if very small, such a group could offer an "alternative" to this dismaying situation.

I don't know of any significant leftist group in the Luxemburg tradition in Germany, maybe some very small council communist sects. As I already wrote, the situtation is fucked up currently within the Left, also within bourgois politics, the PDS is out of the parliament since the last national election. A small hope for me is an anti-globalisation (or globalisation critical) group called Attac (http://www.attac.org), which is reformist, but nevertheless unifies a very big leftist spectrum from bourgois to communists. They have become a non-parliamantal political power with significant societal recognition, the bourgois media is reporting a lot about them.


Is there a decent left newspaper...one that could be properly critical of both of these tendencies? Are there people that could establish such a paper?

The only non-borgouis daily newspaper is the 'Junge Welt' (http://www.jungewelt.de), the former officall newpaper of the FDJ, the DDR youth cadre organisation. I would call it a decent newspaper, although it's clearly more on the "AntiImp" side than on the "Anti-German" side, one of their comentators is one of the ideological heads of the "AntiImps, he is an total idiot, but overall there are a pretty pluralist and independent leftist newspaper, and reports many issues you can't find in he corporate media. Beside that there are plenty of weeky or monthly leftist newspapers, some good, some bad. The biggest national weekly and monthly newspapers are all "Anti-German" though (Konkret and Jungle World).


Do the "anti-Germans" also exist in Austria and/or German-speaking Swiss cantons?

There are a probaply few who probaply ideolocally follow the "Anti-German" theory in Sitzerland and Austria, but I really don't know much about the Left in those countries.


Do the "anti-Germans" concentrate in particular parts of Germany, or are they spread out over the whole country? Who is stronger in Berlin and the other major German cities? And who is getting stronger and who weaker?

Yes, the Anti-Germans mainly concentrate on Berlin and some other areas.


How does the German bourgeois media handle this spectacle of pro-U.S. imperialism "leftists"? What effects do these displays of American flags have on ordinary German workers?

I would say the buorgois media is nearly totally ignoring the Anti-Germans. I think the ordinary worker doesn't really care much about US flag waving leftists, it's not that you see them every day on the streets...I guess this is mainly a conflict whcih is recognized by the Left itself, but outside the Left hadly anybody knows and cares about it. It seems the Left is only dealing with itself, instead of doing anything worthwhile...


How has the old East German "Party of Democratic Socialism" reacted to this development?

I know of some local PDS associations which are hijacked by the Anti-Germans, but generally this conflict mainly is happening within the radical Left, the PDS has become pretty moderated and Social Democratic. Since they are in power in the city of Berlin together with the SPD, where they are respnsable for nearly neo-liberal politics, they have lost support of many leftists.

synthesis
20th January 2004, 03:26
Whoa, I was under the impression that pro-Fascist demonstrations were banned under German law.

redstar2000
20th January 2004, 03:35
At present, there is no chance of a system change towards a new, better socialism. There are however the USA, with a bloody history behind and probably before them, who have however never sunk as far as to lead "total wars" or to exterminate complete peoples. America - its economic, political and military power and its "cultural imperialism", which has influenced the highly nazified East German youth far too little - still forms the most important obstacle against German ambitions. This is the best hope which anti-fascists presently have, which shows how far we are distant from conditions where humans can be more than "a degraded, an enslaved, an abandoned, a miserable being" (Marx).

If somebody accepts that first premise, then by a weird but consistent logic, the conclusion naturally follows.

The parallel here would be that of some American "communist", utterly despairing of any hope for communism, who then decided to support Ben Ladin and Islamic fundamentalism as "the main obstacle against American ambitions".

I don't think we have that...yet.

The anti-Germans must be a very strange group of people...living in a mental twilight of utter despair. Their "main hope" is in the world-wide absolute victory of U.S. imperialism...something that is almost certain not to happen.

I would find confronting an articulate anti-German on a message board an interesting experience. I think I'd start by asking them on what grounds they assert that "there is no chance of a system change".

That's where the error begins.

Anyway, thank you very much and I certainly urge you to write more about the political situation in Germany whenever you think it appropriate.

Now, if we could get someone to write from France, Italy, etc., we wouldn't be such total ignoramuses about the European left.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

FAB
4th February 2004, 19:53
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 03:46 AM


Do the "anti-Germans" also exist in Austria and/or German-speaking Swiss cantons?

There are splitts in austria. in switzerland they call themsleves "anti-swiss" but they are not relevant in this country.

In germany they are a real problem because the most german leftist like Malte have no real anti-imperialistic few, they are reformists. and that use the proimp "left".

last year in berlin there were fights between pro-imperialist germans and antiimperialists because the pro-imperialist left attack demonstrations against the irak war. and i think this confrontations will became stronger...

Edelweiss
4th February 2004, 20:10
Originally posted by FAB+Feb 4 2004, 10:53 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FAB @ Feb 4 2004, 10:53 PM)
[email protected] 19 2004, 03:46 AM


Do the "anti-Germans" also exist in Austria and/or German-speaking Swiss cantons?


In germany they are a real problem because the most german leftist like Malte have no real anti-imperialistic few, they are reformists. and that use the proimp "left".

[/b]
:o Hey, I&#39;m not a reformist&#33; I&#39;m a convinced anti-capitalist&#33;