Scenario that highlights major flaws of Communism

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

Surely a group of workers could set up a Commune in which they have a Capitalist system?

Surely a group of workers could set up a Commune in which only White people are allowed?

Surely a group of workers could set up a Commune, form an army, invade other Communes, then declare their own state?



These may seem silly at first glance, but they are a very real (and very likely, if not inevitable) possibility.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Theoretically they could, but such communes likely wouldn't last long. Besides, society would essentially be completely transformed by that point that I think it would not even occur to many people to even use the capitalist mode of exchange.

[Remus Bleys]

How could this theoretically work?
The Dictatorship of the Proletariat fundamentally destroys the current culture and replaces it with something new.
The economic basis for racism is dead.
Capitalism by the time of socialism is impossible.
Nationalism will be destroyed.

Also, communism will be highly central. So I fail to see how any of this is possible.

[Slavic]

I do not understand what flaws he is portraying.

None of these scenarios are communist scenarios, in fact they seem like a reaction to communist society forming. Each of these scenarios retains a class separation; bourgeoisie/proletariat, white/non-white, state/subjects.

Could you explain why these scenarios are actually a flaw in the formation of a communist society because I'm not seeing your logic.

[Bala Perdida]

I do not understand what flaws he is portraying.

None of these scenarios are communist scenarios, in fact they seem like a reaction to communist society forming. Each of these scenarios retains a class separation; bourgeoisie/proletariat, white/non-white, state/subjects.

Could you explain why these scenarios are actually a flaw in the formation of a communist society because I'm not seeing your logic.

I think what's being said is that we can't be sure these people and these thoughts are going to be completely gone in a Communist/Anarchist/Socialist society. Look at how all the attempted Marxist states where corrupted. When we reach statelessness, there could be bourgeoisie that have been in hiding, or suddenly a radical fascist activist might appear. Their not saying this will happen, but that we can't ignore the possibility. I agree with that.

My idea is that if there is no harm being done to us outside that commune and all inside the particular commune give consent, than they can be left alone. However, if they start to oppress, abuse, or invade than I predict people from various other communes will unite as a liberation army and putting an end to the regime. Hopefully not through a bombing, then that would just bring us back to NATO.

The communes will not be isolated defenseless villages, the will cooperate and communicate to solve problems. Problems like defense, this, and well bein, so food, clothes, ect.

[#FF0000]

Surely a group of workers could set up a Commune in which they have a Capitalist system?

Which would require a state to set the borders of the commune, the laws that protect property, and to enforce those laws.


Surely a group of workers could set up a Commune in which only White people are allowed?

Which would require a state to set borders and raise an army to enforce that arbitrary law.


Surely a group of workers could set up a Commune, form an army, invade other Communes, then declare their own state?


A strange scenario, here. "Well a bunch of workers who have established a stateless and classless society could just willingly give up their freedom and comfort in exchange for none of the freedom and a minimal amount of the comfort just to give power to an individual or a handful of people, right!?"

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

These may seem silly at first glance, but they are a very real (and very likely, if not inevitable) possibility.

Surely a group of workers could set up a commune, build a spaceship, go in to orbit, and nuke the earth from orbit!

Surely a group of workers could set up a commune, and hold weekly beat-each-other-to-death with a baseball bat full of nails events!

Surely a group of workers could set up a commune where everyone is required to have sex with sheep!

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

The economic basis for racism is dead.
Nationalism will be destroyed.

You're incredibly naive if you think that racism/nationalism would disappear, or that racism has an entirely economic basis.


Which would require a state

The workers could collectively decide to set up a state. It's not an impossible or even unrealistic scenario.

In fact, it wouldn't even require a state. The commune could just collectively decide to not allow gays, non-whites, etc in. There would be nothing to stop them.

[Per Levy]

The workers could collectively decide to set up a state. It's not an impossible or even unrealistic scenario.

well since communism is a classless society, its very unrealistic. if there are workers then there are classes, if there are classes there is no communism.

[Remus Bleys]

You're incredibly naive if you think that racism/nationalism would disappear, or that racism has an entirely economic basis.You dare laugh at my post, you stupid piece of worthless shit? You dare insult my intelligence you imbecile?
Racism is actively combated by the proletarian state, and yes, racism does have an entire economic base. What do you think race is biological? Then it is you, you fuck, who is naive.
Under the active destruction of racism by the proletarian state and the fact that the economic base of racism is no more, how the hell does racism continue to persist?
Fucking twat. Learn to fucking think before you drink up your Kool Aid.

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

You dare laugh at my post, you stupid piece of worthless shit? You dare insult my intelligence you imbecile?
Racism is actively combated by the proletarian state, and yes, racism does have an entire economic base. What do you think race is biological? Then it is you, you fuck, who is naive.
Under the active destruction of racism by the proletarian state and the fact that the economic base of racism is no more, how the hell does racism continue to persist?
Fucking twat. Learn to fucking think before you drink up your Kool Aid.

You're delusional.

[Remus Bleys]

You're delusional.
Fucking reply to me you wothless piece of fuck.
Oh! I am so delusion!
How the hell does that address any of my points?
You have no fucking argument.

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

Fucking reply to me you wothless piece of fuck.
Oh! I am so delusion!

How the hell does that address any of my points?
You have no fucking argument.

Pot, kettle, black.

You didn't address a single one of my points; you just repeated your original point and had a tantrum.

[Remus Bleys]

Pot, kettle, black.

You didn't address a single one of my points; you just repeated your original point and had a tantrum.
What points? Calling me delusional?
Fucking respond to me you goddamn troll.

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

What points? Calling me delusional?
Fucking respond to me you goddamn troll.

My point about you being incredibly naive if you think that racism will magically disappear.

You should take some time to work on your ego, buddy. No need to act all tough online.

[Remus Bleys]

My point about you being incredibly naive if you think that racism will magically disappear.
How the fuck is "the proletarian state will actively attack racism" sound anything like "hurr durr it just goes away"
you're fucking stupid


You should take some time to work on your ego, buddy. No need to act all tough online.
Do not baselessly attack me. Show how I am being conceited.

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

How the fuck is "the proletarian state will actively attack racism" sound anything like "hurr durr it just goes away"
you're fucking stupid

"the economic basis for racism is dead"
"racism does have an entire economic base"

Don't play stupid. We both know exactly what you were saying & implying.


Do not baselessly attack me.

I haven't baselessly attacked you once. You, on the other hand...

[Remus Bleys]

"the economic basis for racism is dead"
"racism does have an entire economic base"

Don't play stupid. We both know exactly what you were saying & implying.
One of the many jobs of the proletarian state is to impose its culture. That is the point of it. I have always believed that.

Now, tell me how racism does not have an economic base you filthy scum.


I haven't baselessly attacked you once. You, on the other hand...
Evidence. Back yourself up.

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

One of the many jobs of the proletarian state is to impose its culture. That is the point of it. I have always believed that.


Again, you are extremely naive if you think this will actually happen.


Now, tell me how racism does not have an economic base you filthy scum.

Strawman.

[Remus Bleys]

Again, you are extremely naive if you think this will actually happen.
What, communist revolution is naive?
lulz



Strawman.

You're incredibly naive if you think ... that racism has an entirely economic basis.
How is that a strawman? How does race not have an economic foundation?
Fucking idiot, explain yourself.


It appears you know I am not egotistical, as you have dropped that.

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

What, communist revolution is naive?

I believe so, yes, but that's not we're talking about.

I'm specifically talking about the bizarre and unbelievably naive concept of what you refer to as "proletarian culture" (which itself is a laughable and nonexistant concept) taking over.


How is that a strawman? How does race not have an economic foundation?
Fucking idiot, explain yourself.

Because I have not made the argument that racism doesn't have an economic foundation. Thus, it is a strawman.

I suggest you go back and read my posts to avoid making such mistakes again.


It appears you know I am not egotistical, as you have dropped that.

You are incredibly egotistical, as well as immature & impolite.

What drives you to be such a nasty person towards others? Do you have some kind of mental illness, or are you just a vile person in general?

[Hermes]

maybe he just doesn't know you're only here to aggravate people yet

no one else noticed UKIP?

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

maybe he just doesn't know you're only here to aggravate people yet


Well, I'm here solely to debate with you lot. Not sure if that classes as aggravating or not, although, as evidenced by this thread, some of you don't handle logical debate very well...

I am an ex Anarcho-Communist, by the way. Now a Libertarian.

[Remus Bleys]

I believe so, yes, but that's not we're talking about.
goddamn reactionary.


I'm specifically talking about the bizarre and unbelievably naive concept of what you refer to as "proletarian culture" (which itself is a laughable and nonexistant concept) taking over.whine about strawman and then tell me I believe in proletarian culture taking over. I am not a workerist, nor would that make any sense, as the proletariat is gone under communism, so why the fuck would I advocate for that?

Because I have not made the argument that racism doesn't have an economic foundation. Thus, it is a strawman
I suggest you go back and read my posts to avoid making such mistakes again.


you said racism is not entirely economic. Meaning some racism is not economic. What caused that part of racism then you fuck?

You are incredibly egotistical,You have yet to show this to be true.

as well as immature & impolite.
I will never understand this argument. I am a revolutionary, you are a reactionary. I would have you killed. I would brutally suppress you and your ilk.
Yet you want me to be nice to you on the internet?


What drives you to be such a nasty person towards others? Do you have some kind of mental illness, or are you just a vile person in general?what drives you to be such an anti communist? Do you hate exploited minorities, imeprialized peoples, your fellow worker? Do you have some kind of a mental illness, or are you just a vile person in general?

[Remus Bleys]

maybe he just doesn't know you're only here to aggravate people yet

no one else noticed UKIP?

I am playing along for the sake of the argument. I know he's a troll, and I am exaggerating my posts.

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

whine about strawman and then tell me I believe in proletarian culture taking over. I am not a workerist, nor would that make any sense, as the proletariat is gone under communism, so why the fuck would I advocate for that?

Care to explain what you meant then?


you said racism is not entirely economic. Meaning some racism is not economic. What caused that part of racism then you fuck?

I imagine that there are also biological, cultural and psychological reasons, although I am no expert (neither are you) - I am merely stating that you are incredibly naive if you think racism is solely caused by one variable.


I am a revolutionary, you are a reactionary. I would have you killed. I would brutally suppress you and your ilk.

Do you ever wonder why virtually nobody takes you lot seriously?

[Remus Bleys]

Race is biological.
There he said it. I have successfully shownlibertarians are racist.

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

Race is biological.
There he said it. I have successfully shownlibertarians are racist.

Your ignorance is unbelievable. You really are delusional. I'm going to stop responding to you.

If anyone wants to have a logical debate, feel free to address any of my points raised.

[#FF0000]

In fact, it wouldn't even require a state. The commune could just collectively decide to not allow gays, non-whites, etc in. There would be nothing to stop them.

Yeah, to enforce that you'd need a state.

Your scenarios here basically all boil down to "what if in communism, society decides to stop being communist?"

[#FF0000]

remus the way you get worked up doesn't make you look like ultra militant hella cool guy

it looks dumb and childish and makes you look bad even when compared to dummies w/ even more childish and ill-developed worldviews.

[Remus Bleys]

Care to explain what you meant then? That the culture under which communism will be will be forced and started by the dictatorship of the proletariat.




I imagine that there are also biological, cultural and psychological reasons, although I am no expert (neither are you) - I am merely stating that you are incredibly naive if you think racism is solely caused by one variable. Show me these other variables. Culture and psychology are determined by the economic. Which leaves us with economic and biological. Biological makes no sense, as racism is different from place to place, and the DNA isn't all that different. In addition, by viewing race as not being a social construct, you are fundamentally upholding racism, and thus are racist. The UKIP tipped it off plenty, however.




Do you ever wonder why virtually nobody takes you lot seriously?Because we are not in a revolutionary time, git. "Our lot" has been taken seriously before, see the October Revolution.

Your ignorance is unbelievable.Show me how I am ignorant fuck. You act like I am so fucking egostical, but all you have done was call me ignorant with no reason to back you up.

You really are delusional.Tell me how I am delusional fuckwit.

I'm going to stop responding to you.Because you can't handle it. The arguments will not be different you reactionary filth.

If anyone wants to have a logical debate, Most people on here are dialectical magicians and don't believe in logic you imbecile.


feel free to address any of my points raised. No one else wants to converse with trolls.

[Remus Bleys]

remus the way you get worked up doesn't make you look like ultra militant hella cool guy.
Neither does saying hella in every post.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Buddy, if you're seriously asking these questions, you were never an anarchist.

For one, you seem to entirely lack an historical understanding of race that situates vis-a-vis class, and the re/production of race. Point being, race is not static, but is produced by capital and its attendant institutions (the state, etc.). The process wherein capital is abolished implies overcoming white supremacy as a necessity - ie you can't overthrow capital without overthrowing white supremacy, since it is, along with patriarchy, mutually constitutive with class.

Secondly, the scenarios you're positing are utterly absurd, ahistorical, nonsense. I can come up with more, if you'd like:

Surely a group of workers could set up a commune, declare it a monarchy, and attempt to feudalism!

Surely a group of workers could set up a commune, grow coca, manufacture crack, and travel around to other communes, forcing their children to smoke it at gunpoint!

Surely a group of workers could set up a commune, build a large hadron collider, and cause a black hole to swallow earth!

Surely a group of workers, duped by well-heeled capitalists, could be form the grunts of a party that objectively aims to smash their ability to organize as class by riffing on white supremacist narratives and fostering narrow-minded bigotry by dressing the whole shebang up as an acceptable critique of the European Union.

Oh, wait, sorry, that last one is a thing that is real.

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

In addition, by viewing race as not being a social construct, you are fundamentally upholding racism, and thus are racist.

You guys do a great job of desensitising things like racism, sexism, homophobia, rape, etc.

Someone who believes that racism is not entirely caused by economics is a racist? Laughable, my friend. Laughable.

I know I said I wouldn't respond, but this shit is golden.

[Remus Bleys]

You guys do a great job of desensitising things like racism, sexism, homophobia, rape, etc.

Someone who believes that racism is not entirely caused by economics is a racist? Laughable, my friend. Laughable.

I know I said I wouldn't respond, but this shit is golden.
Racism, such as lynching, slurs, hate crimes, and all that other deplorable shit is caused by the economic conditions of minorities.

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

Surely a group of workers, duped by well-heeled capitalists, could be form the grunts of a party that objectively aims to smash their ability to organize as class by riffing on white supremacist narratives and fostering narrow-minded bigotry by dressing the whole shebang up as an acceptable critique of the European Union.

Oh, wait, sorry, that last one is a thing that is real.

You really like cracking jokes at UKIP, don't you?

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Surely a group of workers could set up a Commune in which they have a Capitalist system?

Surely seedy old kings and moldy queens will bring back feudalisms.


Surely a group of workers could set up a Commune in which only White people are allowed?

That's impossible because white people will all be killed during the revolution.


Surely a group of workers could set up a Commune, form an army, invade other Communes, then declare their own state?


Surely, I better have a unicorn with a blinged horn after the revolution, too.

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

That's impossible because white people will all be killed during the revolution.

As is currently happening in South Africa and has been happening since the African National Cockfest took over.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

As is currently happening in South Africa and has been happening since the African National Cockfest took over.

Boohoo.

IxcwlW3rrkg

Race is a myth, btw.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

As is currently happening in South Africa and has been happening since the African National Cockfest took over.

Not that it wasn't apparent before-hand but now that's a definate TROLL ALERT!

CEASE AND DESIST ALL COMMUNICATION WITH THE TROLL. STARVE IT OF IT'S 'OH DID I OFFEND YOU? HE HE' OXYGEN.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

http://i.imgur.com/Jx1LJlB.jpg

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

Race is a myth, btw, but only when it suits me.


Fixed it for you

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I have no idea what I am doing and I eat farts

Yep, fixed. :)

[Blake's Baby]

Fixed it for you

Why do you think that you fixed it? What gives you the idea that Vox was advocating any belief in 'race'?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

You really like cracking jokes at UKIP, don't you?

Cracking jokes?
I mean, I just spelled out what UKKKIP is - if you read that as a joke, think of what that says about your party.

Honestly, I don't think it's a joke at all - I believe that organized ignorance is extremely dangerous.

[Tim Cornelis]

Will people stop labeling anyone who is not a revolutionary leftist a troll?

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

Anything that isn't Communism is ultimately racist to you lot, so it's a pointless debate.

[Thirsty Crow]

Anything that isn't Communism is ultimately racist to you lot, so it's a pointless debate.
Many liberals aren't racist. So no, but thanks for trying.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Surely a group of workers could set up a Commune in which they have a Capitalist system?

Why would they do that?


Surely a group of workers could set up a Commune in which only White people are allowed?

Why would they do that?


Surely a group of workers could set up a Commune, form an army, invade other Communes, then declare their own state?

A minority attempting to rule over a forcefully conquered majority that has become used to controlling its own economic destiny, is not a scenario that is going to end well for the would-be conquerors. At least kicking the asses of those who would try to install themselves as rulers would serve to underline to the current generation the supreme importance of the revolution and its gains.


These may seem silly at first glance, but they are a very real (and very likely, if not inevitable) possibility.

If communism has been achieved, then the counter-revolutionaries have already lost.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Anything that isn't Communism is ultimately racist to you lot, so it's a pointless debate.

LOL. Worst defense of belonging to a party run by racist turds I've ever heard.

If you sincerely don't get this, you've been duped buddy. Duped hard.

[reb]

Why should anyone actually care what a UKIP supporter believes? They're just the BNP without Nick Griffin and more expensive suits.

If I was to elaborate here, I would have to point out that communism isn't an ideology to be implemented nor is it a set of plans to be followed. It is the objective movement that abolishes capitalism which is inherent within capitalism.

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

Many liberals aren't racist. So no, but thanks for trying.

The vast majority of people, regardless of ideology, aren't.

You even have the cheek to baselessly call anyone who disagrees with you a racist whenever you get the chance

[Sic Semper Tyrannis]

LOL. Worst defense of belonging to a party run by racist turds I've ever heard.

I couldn't care less mate. Your opinion is irrelevant to my political convictions.

[BIXX]

I couldn't care less mate. Your opinion is irrelevant to my political convictions.

Then stop wasting your time here. You are clearly a racist for believing that race is more than a myth, and you have no interest in anarchist or communist or any other radical ideas, as we have no interest in your reactionary ideas. So why do you stay?

Race is a myth because there is no biological grounding for it. I know this because students of several races (including myself, I'm white) were selected to obtain samples of their DNA, and compare them, to prove there is no evidence for race. My girlfriend and I met during this experiment (we are 100% verified not related Hahahahaha) and we both had more similar DNA to white students than we did to one another. So, no such thing as race.

[reb]

You even have the cheek to baselessly call anyone who disagrees with you a racist whenever you get the chance

It's hardly baseless if you have UKIP listed as your organization.

[#FF0000]

The vast majority of people, regardless of ideology, aren't.

You even have the cheek to baselessly call anyone who disagrees with you a racist whenever you get the chance

arguing with the straw-leftists in your head isn't a good way to engage in a discussion btw


Fixed it for you

"race is a myth but only when it suits me"

what do you mean by that comment?

[Comrade Chernov]

How could this theoretically work?
The Dictatorship of the Proletariat fundamentally destroys the current culture and replaces it with something new.
The economic basis for racism is dead.
Capitalism by the time of socialism is impossible.
Nationalism will be destroyed.

Also, communism will be highly central. So I fail to see how any of this is possible.

Uh...isn't the entire purpose of Communism that it isn't highly central?

[Thirsty Crow]

The vast majority of people, regardless of ideology, aren't.

You even have the cheek to baselessly call anyone who disagrees with you a racist whenever you get the chance
Yo buddy, lay your hands off that booze, would you?

You're imagining things.