Che's View of Trotskyites

[ernestolynch]

Speaking over radio and television on November 9,1962, Fidel Castro said: "During all these difficult times we had to live through, during all the attacks by the Yankees, and during the economic aggression consisting of the elimination of the sugar quota and the halting of oil deliveries, in the face of all these successive acts of aggression of which we were the victim, the Soviet Union held out a steady hand to us. The Soviet Union was always with us. We are grateful for this and should state so publicly."

The opinion held by the leader of the Cuban revolution was supported by Ernesto Che Guevara in a conversation with American students, published in Revolución on August 2, 1963.

Che denounced the provocative actions of the Trotskyites who demanded an invasion of the American base Guantánamo during the crisis. He declared that the Trotskyites had nothing in common with the Cuban revolution, that they were idlers and gossips and that the government had no intention of allowing them to publish their own journal as they were demanding.

In a speech years later, on the occasion of the Centenary of Lenin's birth, Fidel Castro quite clearly expressed the attitude of the Cuban revolutionary leadership towards the "left" extremists:

"Today, as we know, there are arch-revolutionary extreme 'left' theorists, real "supermen", if you want to find a name for them, capable of disposing of imperialism with just two words. Many such arch-revolutionaries who haven't an inkling of what reality is or of the problems and difficulties of revolution are overflowing with a terrible hatred constantly fanned by imperialism. It is as if they can't reconcile themselves with the very existence of the Soviet Union....

"They forget about the unbelievable difficulties experienced by the Soviet Union at the outset of the revolutionary process ... about the terrible problems caused by the blockade, isolation and fascist aggression. Their eyes are closed to facts, and they consider the very existence of the Soviet Union as something nearly criminal. And all of this from a "leftist position"—isn't this true baseness!"

:lol: :lol:

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Great Post!!!Truth hurts guys,eh?

[ernestolynch]

They seem to have no answer at all.....

[Monty Cantsin]

Just cos che hated Trotskyites doesn’t mean he was in support of the crimes that Stalin was guilty of.
As for the good of your fellow man all Stalin did was create his own ruling class and state capitalism.
Stalin was an opportunist that betrayed the revolution, I’m not a Trotskyite but I know that much.

[redstar2000]

It would seem that the Trotskyists find the Che quote a bit embarrassing; that happens now and then in politics.

But it's hardly a "crushing blow"...more a bit of needling.

Don't you have anything real to talk about?

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Scottish_Militant]

Personally I couldn't bother my arse about "What so and so said about him/her"

Lynch, you would be better suited to joining my Grans knitting club, your mind numbing gossip would go down much better there. I'm still waiting on you making a political contribution to this forum, it is after all a politics forum.

For once I agree with Redstar, do you have anything real to talk about?

I doubt it...

[Edelweiss]

I'm so sick of this childish, eternal Stalin vs. Trotzy debate, sadly it seems to be more important than todays's real political issues to "leftists" like Lynch. The debate is leading nowhere, and totally irrelavant for today's struggles.

Nevertheles I can't resist to provide the follwing quote by Che, which not proofs him to be a Trotzyist, but rather undogmatic, and not even Marxist-Leninist, as our Stalinist friends here are constantly claiming (no, I don't wanna start another "who belongs the holy Che" debate!):


I don't want to be a Castro, no Bolivar, no Chruschtschow, I would like to be the Mao of my continent. I'm a man who is able to nurse somebody for free, and I was doing that most of the time, but not for all gold in the world I could be out to kill somebody.

One may think I'm a communist, but I don't want anybody to say that, because I fear to be lumped together with those who call themself communist, and who I despise. There are no more communists, especially since they use this word systematicly for the Russians. The Russians have abused those word, and made a petty-bourgois, stinking ragout out of it. It's the socialist larvas who swell with noble words, but who are lauching out nothing than sour milk.

Oh, when i think about how Fidel now lining up the same, rotten future; when I think about how he seriously making efforts to reach exatly this, I'm getting sick!

Basicly it's not the the revoution which actually is my cause. Of course, I will never have a very personal vision for the future, because in my own way, I'm all at the same time: Christian, Marxist, Trozkyist, Maoist, but I'm fighting for that man will find justice and equality in comparison with it's fellow man one day.

Source (http://www.wissen.de/xt/default.do?MENUID=40,156,538,547&MENUNAME=InfoContainer&OCCURRENCEID=.WD002180933497808001.TM01-FullContent&WissenID=P3mj8GM3lNA3I1ETM0KvW74eC1JSwgfyOJMNckI2H T2SJ0vlJe1w|-2565812980452920623/182718475/6/7062/7062/7003/7003/7062/-1|-4580702985895023074/182718489/6/7062/7062/7003/7003/7062/-1|1064936432572)

Sorry about my poor translation. This quote has been published by German news magazine "Der Spiegel" in 1968, probaply originating from aninterview in Bolivia.

[ernestolynch]

There are no more communists, especially since they use this word systematicly for the Russians. The Russians have abused those word, and made a petty-bourgois, stinking ragout out of it. It's the socialist larvas who swell with noble words, but who are lauching out nothing than sour milk.


Enver Hoxha and Mao said the same thing about the decline of Soviet Socialism after 1953. That is why Che Guevara turned away from the liar Khrushchev and his 'Destalinisation', and towards the anti-revisionist line of Mao.

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 05:04 PM

There are no more communists, especially since they use this word systematicly for the Russians. The Russians have abused those word, and made a petty-bourgois, stinking ragout out of it. It's the socialist larvas who swell with noble words, but who are lauching out nothing than sour milk.


Enver Hoxha and Mao said the same thing about the decline of Soviet Socialism after 1953. That is why Che Guevara turned away from the liar Khrushchev and his 'Destalinisation', and towards the anti-revisionist line of Mao.
Maybe, but nevertheless he calles himself a Trotzkyist, beside a Christian (!), and beside criticizing Castro harshly, your strange little world must fall apart to you now I guess :D

[Monty Cantsin]

i just thought i'd have a ***** seeing people were about the trotsky vs stalin thing. but i posted some topics in the ernesto forum, about the ideas of che in regards to warfare, economics and others but people would rather talk about his star or how cool his hair was. i just dont get some people.

[Scottish_Militant]

You'd best take up that offer to join the knitting club then Lynch....

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[ernestolynch]

Che Guevara was asked whether he had read Khrushchev's report to the Twentieth Congress (the so-called 'Secret Speech'). Che replied that it was nothing but imperialist propaganda.

Che also vigorously defended the Soviet intervention in Hungary in 1956.

[Don't Change Your Name]

not again...

Please stalinists stop posting the same things every day...this is so boring

[RedCeltic]

"...I have expressed opinions which could be closer to the Chinese side...and also those mixed up with Trotskyism have come up. They say that the Chinese are fractionalists, also the Trotskyists and me as well. Opinion which must be destroyed with batons is opinion which brings us an advantage. It is not possible to destroy opinions with batons and it is precisely this that is the root of intelligence...it is clear that you can get a series of things from Trotsky's thought."

Ernesto "Che" Guevara, While defending himself after attacks for being Trotskyite, from the Cuban embassy in the USSR

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 05:51 PM
Che Guevara was asked whether he had read Khrushchev's report to the Twentieth Congress (the so-called 'Secret Speech'). Che replied that it was nothing but imperialist propaganda.

Che also vigorously defended the Soviet intervention in Hungary in 1956.
I do not doubt that Che was somewhat "anti-revisionist", he was obvisiely against Khrushchev politics. But shurely he was "anti-revisionist" in a much diferent way than you and your Stalinist buddies are.

[ernestolynch]

In the early 1960s, “The Cuban Trotskyists, for example, were ruthlessly repressed, their leaders jailed and their press smashed. The island has long held one of the largest number of political prisoners of any country in the world, not a few of them Castro's former comrades in the July 26 movement.” - Bill Vann, of the Trot WSWS sect.

Now what kind of Trotskyite would do a thing like that? Are you really saying that Fidel, Raul and Che were 'Trots'?

Why did Che lay some flowers for Stalin when he visited the USSR on a state visit?

Why did he sign his name on a letter to his mother, 'Stalin II'?

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 06:09 PM
In the early 1960s, “The Cuban Trotskyists, for example, were ruthlessly repressed, their leaders jailed and their press smashed. The island has long held one of the largest number of political prisoners of any country in the world, not a few of them Castro's former comrades in the July 26 movement.” - Bill Vann, of the Trot WSWS sect.

Now what kind of Trotskyite would do a thing like that? Are you really saying that Fidel, Raul and Che were 'Trots'?

Why did Che lay some flowers for Stalin when he visited the USSR on a state visit?

Why did he sign his name on a letter to his mother, 'Stalin II'?
Noone is claiming that Fidel, Raul and Che were Trots. You fail to understand that a communist can have a opnion beyond Stalinism and Trotzyism. Che obviesly supported some aspects of Trotzyism, as well as he supported aspects of Maoism/Stalinism and Anarchism. Unlike you, who is repeating the party line of todays's remaining Stalinist sects like a robot, Che could think for himself. See the truth lynch, Che never would have supported your stupid, fanatical anti-Trot cussade, espesiaclly not while sitting on fucking armchair in front of a computer.

[ernestolynch]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 04:19 PM
Che obviesly supported some aspects of Trotzyism, as well as he supported aspects of Maoism/Stalinism and Anarchism.
So Che didn't head a crackdown on Cuban Trots then? Were the offices of the Cuban Trots not closed down and their printing press not smashed up? Weren't the Cuban Trots jailed?

Where on earth can you possibly back up your claim that Che supported Anarchism?

Anarchists HATE Che.

[Scottish_Militant]

"Che also vigorously defended the Soviet intervention in Hungary in 1956."

You have a bloody cheek to talk about 'counter-revolutionaries' Lynch, this 'intervention' was one of the most counter-revolutionary acts in world history. The Hungarian revolution was a socialist revolution, workers comitees were set up, for a very short time Hungary was directly under workers control. One giant statue of Stalin was smashed into millions of peices as thousands of prisoners were realesed from the torture chambers and secret prisons under budapest.

You are to blind to see these things as you foam rabidly at the mouth about 'trots', swimming about in your own drool, you are one of the most pathetic creatures ever to grace any internet forum!

[The Feral Underclass]

I do not hate che. He was a revolutionary, not an ideologist.

What I also find interesting is the fact I posted a thread where the leading British Torskyist Tony Cliff gives a talk on state capitalism, a theoretical attack on your precious stalin, and you have not replied to it. Instead, you start sensationalist shit like this in some childish attempt to discredit trotskyists. Try debating issues instead of pandering to these petty arguments about whether che liked torskysists or not...God it sounds stupid typing it.

[ernestolynch]

Cliff was a moron. In the pay of the MI5 no doubt.

Hungary was a Fascist/Trotskyite/Nationalist counter-revolutionar egged on by the Yanqui Radio Free Europe. Nagy, although a decent chap, was misled by the snakes.

I agree with Che Guevara on this one.

[ernestolynch]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 05:37 PM
You are to blind to see these things as you foam rabidly at the mouth about 'trots', swimming about in your own drool, you are one of the most pathetic creatures ever to grace any internet forum!
Personal abuse is contrary to the rules of this forum.

[BOZG]

Che, a Stalinist???

Who would have thought? Now let's get back to something relevant.

[ernestolynch]

Discussions re the beliefs of Che Guevara are, in your opinion, not 'relevant', on a forum called 'Che-Lives'....?

Bizarre. :blink:

[Comrade Ceausescu]

You have a bloody cheek to talk about 'counter-revolutionaries' Lynch, this 'intervention' was one of the most counter-revolutionary acts in world history. The Hungarian revolution was a socialist revolution, workers comitees were set up, for a very short time Hungary was directly under workers control. One giant statue of Stalin was smashed into millions of peices as thousands of prisoners were realesed from the torture chambers and secret prisons under budapest.

You are to blind to see these things as you foam rabidly at the mouth about 'trots', swimming about in your own drool, you are one of the most pathetic creatures ever to grace any internet forum!


You know nothing about this.

[YKTMX]

Cliff was a moron. In the pay of the MI5 no doubt.

That is offensive.

The idea of a snivelling little weasel like you calling Tony Cliff, who fought for Socialism IN THE REAL WORLD his whole life, a MORON is totally ridicilous.

In the pay of MI5?

Fucking idiot.

[BOZG]

It's quite obvious he was Stalinist leaning. This debate will just turn into another irrelevant Stalin/Trotsky/Lenin's successor debate which have become completely irrelevant. That was the 1920s, this is now, arguing about who was actually Lenin's successor is a waste of time. It is not a popularity contest.

[ernestolynch]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 07:55 PM

Cliff was a moron. In the pay of the MI5 no doubt.

That is offensive.

The idea of a snivelling little weasel like you calling Tony Cliff, who fought for Socialism IN THE REAL WORLD his whole life, a MORON is totally ridicilous.

In the pay of MI5?

Fucking idiot.
This is your second warning for personal abuse today.

[YKTMX]

That post was my first for today :)

Warned by who anyway?

[BOZG]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 06:50 PM
Hungary was a Fascist/Trotskyite/
So Trotskyites are fascists these days....intelligent stuff.



X,

You know all the filthy liberal Trots are double agents for MI5. I thought you'd have known better.

[Scottish_Militant]

You know nothing about this.


Comrade, I must fall down on my knees in awe at your debating skills :lol:

ever heard of a man called Peter Fryer? He was a communist and long serving journalist for the UK paper the dailly worker. He was sent by his employers to Hungary to report back on the 'counter-revolution' and 'white terror' in Hungary.

Of course when he arrived he did not see any of this 'counter revolution' or 'white terror', he simply saw a brave and determined working class fighting back against years of brutal suppression by the soviet secret police!

Like I said, the workers look power, albeit only for a matter of days before they were crushed, but they set up in those few days a true workers republic which contained many good traditions of bolshevism. When Fryer reported back however his stories were not published, he was told to 'get in line', of course he wanted to tell what was really happening and eventually he had no option but to resign from his job and report independantly.

But of course, no doubt Fryer was an 'M15 Trot', or perhaps he was a 'fascist' eh. Seriously guys, you are unbeleivable, stick to making your tacky 'humerous' websites, maybe one day you might find an interest in politics.

[Edelweiss]

Originally posted by ernestolynch+Jan 18 2004, 06:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ernestolynch @ Jan 18 2004, 06:30 PM)
[email protected] 18 2004, 04:19 PM
Che obviesly supported some aspects of Trotzyism, as well as he supported aspects of Maoism/Stalinism and Anarchism.
So Che didn&#39;t head a crackdown on Cuban Trots then? Were the offices of the Cuban Trots not closed down and their printing press not smashed up? Weren&#39;t the Cuban Trots jailed?

Where on earth can you possibly back up your claim that Che supported Anarchism?

Anarchists HATE Che. [/b]
It&#39;s pointless to discuss wth you, when you can&#39;t even reply to the actual things I&#39;m saying, and when you can&#39;t even slightly comprehend my point, which I have clearly proofed now, about the stand of Che towards Trotskism. I&#39;m out of this debate, I&#39;m regereting to ever take part in it.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Comrade, I must fall down on my knees in awe at your debating skills

ever heard of a man called Peter Fryer? He was a communist and long serving journalist for the UK paper the dailly worker. He was sent by his employers to Hungary to report back on the &#39;counter-revolution&#39; and &#39;white terror&#39; in Hungary.

Of course when he arrived he did not see any of this &#39;counter revolution&#39; or &#39;white terror&#39;, he simply saw a brave and determined working class fighting back against years of brutal suppression by the soviet secret police&#33;

Like I said, the workers look power, albeit only for a matter of days before they were crushed, but they set up in those few days a true workers republic which contained many good traditions of bolshevism. When Fryer reported back however his stories were not published, he was told to &#39;get in line&#39;, of course he wanted to tell what was really happening and eventually he had no option but to resign from his job and report independantly.

But of course, no doubt Fryer was an &#39;M15 Trot&#39;, or perhaps he was a &#39;fascist&#39; eh. Seriously guys, you are unbeleivable, stick to making your tacky &#39;humerous&#39; websites, maybe one day you might find an interest in politics.


My dad is a strong anti-communist and he was there.He is Hungarian.I trust him over your Trotskyite journalist. He says the protestors were anti-communist students.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Jonas Kadar,who became General Seceratary after the revolt was a good man. Again,my Dad the defector has nothing against him and says he wasn&#39;t a bad guy.

[Scottish_Militant]

Since when did &#39;my journalist&#39; become a trotskyist?? He was working for the Dailly Worker&#33;

Do you think he went to Hungary to make thousands of lies? Do you think he wanted to lose his job etc?

But yes, &#39;your Dad says&#39;, well anytime a socialist uses this one against the crimes of Stalin they are shot down in flames, I think you wont mind if i take this with a little pinch of salt (perhaps a whole barrel) :lol:

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Can you go a topic without bringing Stalin up?The fact is,nothing bad happend to my dad in the uprising.He has nothing to lie or exagurate about.Those old grandparents with failing memories do.

[kylieII]

Malte, BornOfZapatasGuns, YouKnowTheyMurderedX, Communist_revolutionary, it seems pretty obvious to me that you&#39;re all Trotskyist-fascist-anarchists, and therefore the real communists like comrade_ceausescu and ernestolynch can just ignore your posts and repeat the same thing over and over again.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by ernestolynch+Jan 18 2004, 07:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ernestolynch @ Jan 18 2004, 07:58 PM)
[email protected] 18 2004, 07:55 PM

Cliff was a moron. In the pay of the MI5 no doubt.

That is offensive.

The idea of a snivelling little weasel like you calling Tony Cliff, who fought for Socialism IN THE REAL WORLD his whole life, a MORON is totally ridicilous.

In the pay of MI5?

Fucking idiot.
This is your second warning for personal abuse today. [/b]
Who gives a shit, how many warnings you give? Your an ass, no one cares&#33;

[synthesis]

You fail to understand that a communist can have a opnion beyond Stalinism and Trotzyism.

Gone undetected in this whole mess is the most truthful statement of any of it.

It is time for socialism to move out of the 20th century and into the 21st.

[Scottish_Militant]

My dad is a strong anti-communist and he was there.He is Hungarian.I trust him over your Trotskyite journalist. He says the protestors were anti-communist students.


Ok, so your own father is a counter-revolutionary anti-communist, why then do you trust his accounts over a communist journalist??


Jonas Kadar,who became General Seceratary after the revolt was a good man. Again,my Dad the defector has nothing against him and says he wasn&#39;t a bad guy.

Well of course, you just admitted he was anti-communist&#33;&#33;

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Ok, so your own father is a counter-revolutionary anti-communist, why then do you trust his accounts over a communist journalist??
Most people say that it was anti-nist and counter revolutionary.My dad has nothing to gain by making this up.Funny how a Trotskyite can call anyone counter-revolutionary.


Well of course, you just admitted he was anti-communist&#33;&#33;
You are saying that Kadar was anti-communist?Thats absurd. Is there anyone other then Trostky you support?

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 03:38 AM

You fail to understand that a communist can have a opnion beyond Stalinism and Trotzyism.

Gone undetected in this whole mess is the most truthful statement of any of it.

It is time for socialism to move out of the 20th century and into the 21st.
Oh darn&#33; And look, they were having so much fun playing up the whole stupid arguments that kept so many 20&#39;th centery communists from doing something useful. :lol: :lol:

[marsell]

You have been misquoting che guevara. He opposed the soviet union and stalin, partly because of what they did to Trotsky. that is why cuba never joined it, as fidel and che were not happy with how stalins betrayal of the revolution was occuring.

[b]for revolution against the stalinist beurocracy&#33;