Should you get homework in school?

[Stalinist Speaker]

Simple question, yes or no?

If yes: how often should you get homework? how hard should it be?

if no: why so? wouldn't that decrease the amount the children learn in their youth?

Can you change it somehow to make it for educating purposes only? if you can should there be homework then?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

No. Of course not. Home work is, as many teachers and educational personnel will admit, not intended for learning at all but to teach work ethics and discipline to children, and such rubbish we want nothing of. Home work was introduced in order to foster discipline and dedication to work, and therefore is counter-revolutionary and reactionary and must be destroyed.

[RedSunrise]

Kinda...

Yes. You should get homework in school
No. It should not count towards your grade, but teachers still have to check/grade it.

Homework should be for learning. If you don't need to use it don't, but if you do then do. Test/Exams are where your grade should come from

Homework is a tool like a hammer, but you don't need a hammer if you want to put a screw in. To each his own, as long as you achieve your goal.

[Stalinist Speaker]

No. Of course not. Home work is, as many teachers and educational personnel will admit, not intended for learning at all but to teach work ethics and discipline to children, and such rubbish we want nothing of. Home work was introduced in order to foster discipline and dedication to work, and therefore is counter-revolutionary and reactionary and must be destroyed.

So you cant have homework to educate people?

[helot]

I think the education system itself needs to be abolished in favour of a collaborative environment focussed on instilling an enjoyment of learning in children so no, i don't support homework. It's harsh on the kids and harsh on the teachers who thus end up with even less free time outside of work.



Oh and fuck national testing. There's way too much and here in the UK there's even talks of getting 5 year olds to do it! Fucking 5 year olds!

[Stalinist Speaker]

I think the education system itself needs to be abolished in favour of a collaborative environment focussed on instilling an enjoyment of learning in children so no, i don't support homework. It's harsh on the kids and harsh on the teachers who thus end up with even less free time outside of work.

well couldn't you have a little bit less harsh homework? cant homework be enjoyable in any way?

[Comrade Jacob]

Optional homework should be optional.

[helot]

well couldn't you have a little bit less harsh homework? cant homework be enjoyable in any way?


As it currently stands no, it can't be due to the purpose of the education system.

Of course there is forms of learning at home that would be beneficial but as far as i'm aware this rarely if ever coincides with what homework generally is. For the most part homework is paper-pushing busy work.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

I found a study a few years ago that cast doubts on the usefulness of homework in terms of actual learning, and it also pronounced that it's mostly set to instil a "work ethic" and to get students used to doing drudgery.

On a purely anecdotal level, my mum (who has been a teacher since the early eighties) has often said that she doesn't really believe in the utility of homework as a learning device (though she still made me do all my homework at school :mad: )

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

So you cant have homework to educate people?

Why would you have that? Can't you learn during the time you have to spend at a educational institution? Why does it have to go over the "free time"? And if the educational time became less rigid and less work-training oriented, there'd be even less need for that sort of rubbish; this is why home-work exists, to create a time-discipline, so that children learn that work is constant, to make them obedient and accept authority; you have to do it, etc. Of course such rubbish doesn't chime well with communism.

[RedSunrise]

well couldn't you have a little bit less harsh homework? cant homework be enjoyable in any way?

That's why I think it should be optional...

No kid is going to find homework enjoyable vs. video games (And if they do :ohmy:), but that doesn't mean it isn't necessary for them to achieve their educational goals. That's why parents should be involved with their child's education, and the child should care about their OWN education. If I know that to be what I want to be (say a doctor), I know I have to get this ____ grade. If I find my homework fun or needed, I will do it.

[Stalinist Speaker]

As it currently stands no, it can't be due to the purpose of the education system.

Of course there is forms of learning at home that would be beneficial but as far as i'm aware this rarely if ever coincides with what homework generally is.

so cant you make the homework for education purposes only?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Kinda...

Yes. You should get homework in school
No. It should not count towards your grade, but teachers still have to check/grade it.

Homework should be for learning. If you don't need to use it don't, but if you do then do. Test/Exams are where your grade should come from

Homework is a tool like a hammer, but you don't need a hammer if you want to put a screw in. To each his own, as long as you achieve your goal.

Rubbish. Homework is a tool like a slap on the arse to get back to work. Tests and exams are rubbish way of measuring a students knowledge. Patient and well-mannered teachers in small classes with flexible methodology would be conscious enough of their students abilities and alert enough to their needs that any arbitrary worthless testing would be superfluous (besides being utterly misguided and giving poor results).

[helot]

so cant you make the homework for education purposes only?


In the abstract yeah it should be possible but under prevailing conditions i doubt it. It wouldn't be homework as we know it, it'd be play.

[RedSunrise]

Homework is a tool like a slap on the arse to get back to work. Tests and exams are rubbish way of measuring a students knowledge. Patient and well-mannered teachers in small classes with flexible methodology would be conscious enough of their students abilities and alert enough to their needs that any arbitrary worthless testing would be superfluous (besides being utterly misguided and giving poor results).

For the current system it is! But when Homework is optional it will be that: an optional slap in the "arse"

Tell me... Is EVERY teacher like this? No. How will we make sure that EVERY teacher is perfect? We can't, so tests are a sad and disgusting but needed part of education.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

For the current system it is! But when Homework is optional it will be that: an optional slap in the "arse"

Tell me... Is EVERY teacher like this? No. How will we make sure that EVERY teacher is perfect? We can't, so tests are a sad and disgusting but needed part of education.

The educational system needs to be destroyed and reconstituted. Why are tests needed?

[Stalinist Speaker]

The educational system needs to be destroyed and reconstituted. Why are tests needed?

For statistics maybe?

i wasn't referring to the education in the capitalist society, but the question is should there be any type of homework?

[RedSunrise]

The educational system needs to be destroyed and reconstituted. Why are tests needed?

100% agreed. The system is flawed and needs to be killed.

In the current system (pre-reconstitution), the test is needed, because there is no reliable way to determine a student's understanding of a concept. Why is there no way? Because it is a bad system that needs to be killed. Until the day we change it, the only way is testing. If you, of course, have a different idea to replace testing without replacing the system: I am all ears

I.M.O. Re-constitute. Steps to take before then: optional homework

[Stalinist Speaker]

For the current system it is! But when Homework is optional it will be that: an optional slap in the "arse"

Tell me... Is EVERY teacher like this? No. How will we make sure that EVERY teacher is perfect? We can't, so tests are a sad and disgusting but needed part of education.

but if the homework was optional wouldn't the lazy students that don't have as much knowledge as other students just skip it and not learn as much?

[RedSunrise]

but if the homework was optional wouldn't the lazy students that don't have as much knowledge as other students just skip it and not learn as much?

That is what testing is for.

[Stalinist Speaker]

That is what testing is for.

yes and if they fail the test then what?

[Creative Destruction]

Finland is the top most rated school in the world -- they barely have any homework and the only testing they do is to gauge how well the student knows the material, but it is not counted toward their scores. There's also somewhat of an unspoken social obligation for the high performing students to help the ones who aren't doing so well.

Homework should be largely abolished. Adequate class time should be given to complete work. If a student can't finish their assignment within that day, then there should be some more time set aside for that student the next class period.

[Stalinist Speaker]

Finland is the top most rated school in the world -- they barely have any homework and the only testing they do is to gauge how well the student knows the material, but it is not counted toward their scores. There's also somewhat of an unspoken social obligation for the high performing students to help the ones who aren't doing so well.

Homework should be largely abolished. Adequate class time should be given to complete work. If a student can't finish their assignment within that day, then there should be some more time set aside for that student the next class period.

yes sweden also have a very high rated school but the students don't know shit, so i don't trust when some one says that they have a good school system

[Sam_b]

No. Of course not. Home work is, as many teachers and educational personnel will admit, not intended for learning at all but to teach work ethics and discipline to children, and such rubbish we want nothing of. Home work was introduced in order to foster discipline and dedication to work, and therefore is counter-revolutionary and reactionary and must be destroyed.

Your last sentence here is complete parody, and I wish it was so simple as to give a black-and-white response to something such as education. TBH, I doubt you've ever spoken to teachers and 'educational personell'. Of course, you're only saying this because you view something like 'homework' as being just filling out sheets and so forth. So why don't we consider how important it is to nurture the concept of independent learning and critical enquiry away from the classroom environment. Independent work and research are essential to a fully-serving and knowledge-driven educational environment. This is something critical, for instance, in higher education. However, the problem is that not all students wish to be drilled into this way of working, are more practical-skills oriented and so on, and thus there needs to be an overhaul of most conventional systems which sadly stick to a rigid 'curriculum' without being adapted for the student's (and not the states) need.


Adequate class time should be given to complete work. If a student can't finish their assignment within that day, then there should be some more time set aside for that student the next class period

Which would, in current conditions, rapidly decrease the amount of face-to-face time that students already have with teachers.

Sorry but the whole sentence of 'homework is counter-revolutionary' just sounds like some baseless Socialist Meme Caucus drivel, and I can't seriously imagine anyone saying it without me thinking of them as a complete stereotype of the worst parts of the left.

[helot]

In the current system (pre-reconstitution), the test is needed, because there is no reliable way to determine a student's understanding of a concept.


but testing doesn't. I went through the education system without doing any work, barely turning upto classes (and when i did i was stoned as fuck and giggling away with my mates). I got through with good grades because i know how to manipulate examinations. It's really easy. You don't actually need to learn anything to pass.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

yes sweden also have a very high rated school but the students don't know shit, so i don't trust when some one says that they have a good school system

Where do they know shit? They can recite the names of worthless dead kings & queens and memorised enough useless numbers and equations?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

If 8 hours 5 days a week is not a sufficient amount of time to teach your subjects then there's something wrong with the curriculum

[Stalinist Speaker]

Where do they know shit? They can recite the names of worthless dead kings & queens and memorised enough useless numbers and equations?

no most people (mostly males) don't know shit of basic knowledge for example history, there are many that even can't do 9th grade math, they are not specifically god at grammar and don't even think they know anything about philosophy and other important knowledge

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Your last sentence here is complete parody, and I wish it was so simple as to give a black-and-white response to something such as education. TBH, I doubt you've ever spoken to teachers and 'educational personell'. Of course, you're only saying this because you view something like 'homework' as being just filling out sheets and so forth. So why don't we consider how important it is to nurture the concept of independent learning and critical enquiry away from the classroom environment. Independent work and research are essential to a fully-serving and knowledge-driven educational environment. This is something critical, for instance, in higher education. However, the problem is that not all students wish to be drilled into this way of working, are more practical-skills oriented and so on, and thus there needs to be an overhaul of most conventional systems which sadly stick to a rigid 'curriculum' without being adapted for the student's (and not the states) need.


Legislation when home-work was introduced in the Scandinavian countries in the late 1800's general spoke of it as a "fostering" thing, which was repeated during the restructuring of the educational systems between the 40's and 60's, which shows the paternalistic origins of homework. Fuck does it matter what I have spoken to? I know you like to be a condescending little shit and all but still... They were interviewed in newspapers, and at least one headmaster and two teachers said so - not that it counts for much.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

So why don't we consider how important it is to nurture the concept of independent learning and critical enquiry away from the classroom environment. Independent work and research are essential to a fully-serving and knowledge-driven educational environment.

I agree that it would be very lovely indeed if homework actually served this purpose. To some extent, I think that some of the stuff I currently do at home for my coursework at University does serve this purpose.

However, my experience of homework for let's say, the first fourteen years of my education was nowhere near that ideal. It conformed more or less to what Takayuki and others have mentioned - by that I mean it was almost always an unpleasant excercise purely designed to "test" me and get me used to repetetive drudgery. I am perfectly confident in saying that homework never helped me one bit through my full-time education - i'd actually argue that it served to demotivate me and rob me of my enthusiasm for certain subjects.

[Sam_b]

If 8 hours 5 days a week is not a sufficient amount of time to teach your subjects then there's something wrong with the curriculum

This in a nutshell is for me why we've got such huge problems in English-speaking countries of effectively learning a second language.


Fuck does it matter what I have spoken to?

It does when you make an assumption that most teachers 'will admit' to what you're saying. It's just posturing.


They were interviewed in newspapers, and at least one headmaster and two teachers said so

Absolutely huge sample size right there (source?) which encapsulates 'many teachers'.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Homework is bullshit. The idea that it somehow "fosters independent learning" is nonsense, because it's compulsory. When people are forced into a task they think is boring or unpleasant, they're hardly likely to want to repeat the experience voluntarily, no matter how merit-worthy the activity may actually be. Those who don't need to be compelled to do homework already have that drive. Independent learning is a good thing, but homework is at best a counter-productively blunt instrument and at worst actively discourages independent learning.


This in a nutshell is for me why we've got such huge problems in English-speaking countries of effectively learning a second language.

Or maybe it's because the dominance of English as a global language means that there's no meaningful pressure to learn. Besides, you don't need to do homework to learn a second language, something which can be done at school, or best of all, by actually living in the country and having the opportunity to learn in the kind of contexts that native speakers do.

[Creative Destruction]

yes sweden also have a very high rated school but the students don't know shit, so i don't trust when some one says that they have a good school system

lol. What do you mean "they don't know shit"? They're in the top 10 in OECD/PISA countries for Reading and in the top 15 for Science and Math. They outrank the United States significantly, not to mention Belarus. Finland is #1 in all of those rankings.

If you're going to make a seemingly spurious claim like that, you're gonna have to give some evidence for it.

[Sam_b]

Nobody going rah rah rah in this thread actually going to throw up a half-decent definition of what they see as 'homework'?

[Red_Banner]

I'm with Emma Goldman and Anarchist Free Schooling in regards to education.

And I do not like homework.

I got too much homework when I was a kid.

So much my backpack was breaking from the weight.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Nobody going rah rah rah in this thread actually going to throw up a half-decent definition of what they see as 'homework'?

Why? What's wrong with the common definition of the term?

[Stalinist Speaker]

lol. What do you mean "they don't know shit"? They're in the top 10 in OECD/PISA countries for Reading and in the top 15 for Science and Math. They outrank the United States significantly, not to mention Belarus. Finland is #1 in all of those rankings.

If you're going to make a seemingly spurious claim like that, you're gonna have to give some evidence for it.

well i have lived in both sweden and Belarus for a long time and i can easily say that sweden's average student is not well educated at all (especially males) Belarusians do have more knowledge then a swede (example as i see it Belarusians are a lot better at math then swedes) and students get horrible grades and have a lot of issues learning math in sweden so no i don't believe it for a second.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

Nobody going rah rah rah in this thread actually going to throw up a half-decent definition of what they see as 'homework'?
i would have thought it was pretty self-explanatory myself.


Joking aside, on a fundamental level it is simply school work done at home. In my experience, what this meant at school was being handed a sheet of questions to answer and rarely anything more. The questions themselves were usually of the "recall a fact and write it down" in, say, English, history and R.E or "endlessly demonstrate that you know the handful of formulas you got taught in class" in the sciences and maths.

Not exactly inspiring stuff.

[Creative Destruction]

Which would, in current conditions, rapidly decrease the amount of face-to-face time that students already have with teachers.

What do you mean here? It may reduce the amount of time the teacher spends in front of the class, but you can compensate that by not requiring teachers to spend a little over half their period going over standardized test questions, which is what most teachers do in the U.S. education system. Instead of going over a useless standardized test, they'll actually be working on assignments that will help them.

The only other way to build more face-to-face time with kids and teachers right now, without sacrificing the personal freedom and free time of the kids after school by just giving them homework, is to stretch out the school day, which, the way it is right now, is unacceptable.


Sorry but the whole sentence of 'homework is counter-revolutionary' just sounds like some baseless Socialist Meme Caucus drivel, and I can't seriously imagine anyone saying it without me thinking of them as a complete stereotype of the worst parts of the left.

Well, speaking for myself, I don't think it's "counter-revolutionary" and I don't see how it could be. It is counter-productive. Recent studies have been done that question the efficacy of homework, and it's done at the detriment to the student's wellbeing. Not only that, but students are doing more homework in Primary school than previous generations. It is quite oppressive and counter-productive to current day students, especially when, in the case of the United States, you're not doing homework to actually learn the mechanics of anything. You're doing homework to ensure you can take a test well enough to pass. That's not a good measure of knowledge.

Tying student performance to homework (25% of your grade will be HW or whatever) is absolutely fucking horrible for oppressed black and brown communities here. It's already rough dealing with jaded teachers, a system that doesn't spend nearly as much as it should and having to deal with run-down schools, but they have to contend with doing homework in an often hostile home and neighborhood environment. It's about as fucking ridiculous as tying teacher evaluations to student test scores.

[Creative Destruction]

well i have lived in both sweden and Belarus for a long time and i can easily say that sweden's average student is not well educated at all (especially males) Belarusians do have more knowledge then a swede (example as i see it Belarusians are a lot better at math then swedes) and students get horrible grades and have a lot of issues learning math in sweden so no i don't believe it for a second.

Sorry dude. I'm not going to take anecdotal evidence from RevLeft forums poster "Stalinist Speaker" over the data that's been presented. If you've got something that's actually convincing showing the overall idiocy of Swedes and how, despite that, they're able to rank in the top of the world's best education systems, then I'd like to see it.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

no most people (mostly males) don't know shit of basic knowledge for example history, there are many that even can do 9th grade math, they are not specifically god at grammar and don't even think they know anything about philosophy and other important knowledge

You're awful at English. Did you pick that up in Belarus? Your education system must suck. This is now a nationalist dick-measuring contest of sorts.



Absolutely huge sample size right there (source?) which encapsulates 'many teachers'.

I didn't say it was a huge sample size. I think you're a contrarian arsehole, and you are probably a teacher or some shit and like giving home work assignments. I could transcribe and translate the article but that's too much work for me to bother for your sake.

[Sam_b]

Why? What's wrong with the common definition of the term?

Because there is no definition of the term aside from work outside of school hours?


I think you're a contrarian arsehole, and you are probably a teacher or some shit and like giving home work assignments. I could transcribe and translate the article but that's too much work for me to bother for your sake.

You are a global moderator and should not be flaming.


What do you mean here? It may reduce the amount of time the teacher spends in front of the class, but you can compensate that by not requiring teachers to spend a little over half their period going over standardized test questions, which is what most teachers do in the U.S. education system. Instead of going over a useless standardized test, they'll actually be working on assignments that will help them.

Except this isn't in relation to anyone's opinion on testing. This is why in my post I specifically mention in current conditions - that is what I was addressing.

Also, to people in this thread, it's really good practice to actually cite the sources you're using rather than abstractly referring to some 'study'. It's how you actually prove a point.

[DasFapital]

Do your damn homework

[Stalinist Speaker]

You're awful at English. Did you pick that up in Belarus? Your education system must suck. This is now a nationalist dick-measuring contest of sorts.

well i'm not exactly reading through my posts before i post them since there is no reason for it, i just write an fast answer and post it. and i wouldn't really call it that bad, i haven't detected any major flaws in my english in the latest posts, so i take it as your just joking.

and if i now were so bad at english shouldn't it be good that i did more english homework so i could get better at it?

well i looked through some of your posts to and you didn't spell correctly either, for example memorized (you spelled memorised) way to go. Maybe its the education system that sucks in your country, and i have a big feeling that you are from sweden.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

well i'm not exactly reading through my posts before i post them since there is no reason for it, i just write an fast answer and post it. and i wouldn't really call it that bad, i haven't detected any major flaws in my english in the latest posts, so i take it as your just joking.

and if i now were so bad at english shouldn't it be good that i did more english homework so i could get better at it?

I wouldn't think it would make you better. Reading English in school never taught me anything at all. Many Russians I have encountered will have a very stilted and poor English because their method of learning is excessively bookish, they might be able to use it technically correctly, but will tend not to understand idioms and expressions well, and will be afraid of creatively applying the language; this is because the Russian educational system stresses rote learning and not organic adaptation and absorption.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

No. Of course not. Home work is, as many teachers and educational personnel will admit, not intended for learning at all but to teach work ethics and discipline to children, and such rubbish we want nothing of. Home work was introduced in order to foster discipline and dedication to work, and therefore is counter-revolutionary and reactionary and must be destroyed.

Not sure if serious...

If it is, you really don't know what you're talking about. Homework is designed because generally there aren't enough hours in the day to teach the students, and so they need extra hours after school designated to enable further learning.

It is also a vital assessment tool - it is absolutely pointless to set, for example, extended written tasks in a lesson as that is boring and a waste of time. Homework is a perfect opportunity for extended writing tasks, and for more creative tasks such as planning group presentations, independent research etc.

To say that enabling students to learn independently and foster their creativity is 'reactionary' shows a lot of ignorance on your part about the role of education in a young person's development.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Homework should be largely abolished. Adequate class time should be given to complete work. If a student can't finish their assignment within that day, then there should be some more time set aside for that student the next class period.

Maybe decisions like this should be left to people who study education, who work with students every day.

Blanket statements like this are incredibly unhelpful. Different students, groupings and classes have different needs. Some require more out-of-class help and tasks than others, some require different types of homework.

To blithely throw your weight around and recommend some blanket strategy based on nothing but your own whims is unhelpful and totally irrelevant to reality.

[Stalinist Speaker]

I wouldn't think it would make you better. Reading English in school never taught me anything at all. Many Russians I have encountered will have a very stilted and poor English because their method of learning is excessively bookish, they might be able to use it technically correctly, but will tend not to understand idioms and expressions well, and will be afraid of creatively applying the language; this is because the Russian educational system stresses rote learning and not organic adaptation and absorption.

russian and belarusian educating systems is way different the belarusian is more like the soviet system, learning english in russia is optional those who learn it get a good result (usually) and the rest doesn't speak it that well at all,
it is an another story in belarus

[Creative Destruction]

Except this isn't in relation to anyone's opinion on testing. This is why in my post I specifically mention in current conditions - that is what I was addressing.

Yeah, and I addressed you argument in current conditions. Homework doesn't help kids learn, it doesn't help them get better marks. They're doing homework to prepare for a standardized test.


Also, to people in this thread, it's really good practice to actually cite the sources you're using rather than abstractly referring to some 'study'. It's how you actually prove a point.

Source. (https://news.virginia.edu/content/study-homework-doesn-t-mean-better-grades-maybe-better-standardized-test-scores)


Contrary to much published research, a regression analysis of time spent on homework and the final class grade found no substantive difference in grades between students who complete homework and those who do not. But the analysis found a positive association between student performance on standardized tests and the time they spent on homework.

“Our results hint that maybe homework is not being used as well as it could be,” Maltese said.

Tai said that homework assignments cannot replace good teaching.

“I believe that this finding is the end result of a chain of unfortunate educational decisions, beginning with the content coverage requirements that push too much information into too little time to learn it in the classroom,” Tai said. “The overflow typically results in more homework assignments. However, students spending more time on something that is not easy to understand or needs to be explained by a teacher does not help these students learn and, in fact, may confuse them.

“The results from this study imply that homework should be purposeful,” he added, “and that the purpose must be understood by both the teacher and the students.”

The purposefulness of homework is how much it might help a kid come test time at the end of the year. It doesn't have any bearing on how well the child has learned and what they took away from that class.

If we're cool with limiting our kids and giving them shitty educations and less free time to do what they want, then have at it I guess. Otherwise, if you want to give kids a quality education and maximize their freedom, homework isn't going to further that in the least.

[Creative Destruction]

Maybe decisions like this should be left to people who study education, who work with students every day.

Blanket statements like this are incredibly unhelpful. Different students, groupings and classes have different needs. Some require more out-of-class help and tasks than others, some require different types of homework.

To blithely throw your weight around and recommend some blanket strategy based on nothing but your own whims is unhelpful and totally irrelevant to reality.

Comparisons to other systems that do without much homework are helpful, though. That's what I'm basing my opinions on -- from people who do work with kids every day.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Comparisons to other systems that do without much homework are helpful, though. That's what I'm basing my opinions on -- from people who do work with kids every day.

From which systems, though?

Different countries have different social conditions, different cultures, different population sizes, different resources. You cannot transplant these across and expect results, which is why I am attacking those who are advocating these blanket reactions without backing them up, without detailing anything at all.

As far as i'm concerned, it's just conjecture. I work with 'kids' every day and, whilst i'm certainly a beginner and no expert in the field of education, I can see exactly how silly it is to suggest we just abandon homework en masse. It's a silly suggestion.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Because there is no definition of the term aside from work outside of school hours?

What's wrong with that definition?


Not sure if serious...

If it is, you really don't know what you're talking about. Homework is designed because generally there aren't enough hours in the day to teach the students, and so they need extra hours after school designated to enable further learning.

How do we know that the lack of sufficient hours is not down to crappy teaching methods that make an inefficient use of school time?


It is also a vital assessment tool - it is absolutely pointless to set, for example, extended written tasks in a lesson as that is boring and a waste of time. Homework is a perfect opportunity for extended writing tasks, and for more creative tasks such as planning group presentations, independent research etc.

So don't set extended written tasks in the classroom. Set them in the library, where it's meant to be quiet, where resources for independent research are closer to hand and more extensive than at home, and where there aren't a million and one distractions.


To say that enabling students to learn independently and foster their creativity is 'reactionary' shows a lot of ignorance on your part about the role of education in a young person's development.

This is based on the assumption that homework does as you say, but there is no basis for this assumption.

[Tim Cornelis]

no most people (mostly males) don't know shit of basic knowledge for example history, there are many that even can't do 9th grade math, they are not specifically god at grammar and don't even think they know anything about philosophy and other important knowledge

It's the same here in the Netherlands, which ranks quite high in terms of education. Now imagine how much worse off, say, Brazil is. History is not all that important and philosophy is not important at all. Some people are simply not interested in history and will become something completely different so they wont need it anyway.

I think that higher education should remain broadly the same. Presently, institutions of higher education allow those over 21 years old to take a test if they lack the proper papers for regular entry. Similarly, this test should be administered to anyone at their request over, say, the age of 16. Then whatever a student may wish to become he needs to learn those specific subjects and can ignore all else he finds useless. For instance, my current study (something with public policy, there's no English equivalent of the word) I didn't need geography, or art, or biology, or physics, or chemistry, or even maths (I did need economics). If I had been left to my own devices I would have probably studied less around the age of 14, but gradually came to realise I need to study more for admission to higher education. I would still have studied far less than I have done in real life, but without the useless subjects the net result would have been about the same I believe.
I think teachers should facilitate and motivate students to work toward these goals, rather than bother them with subjects they'll never need anyway.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Not sure if serious...

If it is, you really don't know what you're talking about. Homework is designed because generally there aren't enough hours in the day to teach the students, and so they need extra hours after school designated to enable further learning.

No, it isn't. The Swedish school cirriculum plan of 1962 opined that homework "is a form of work-fostering". The 1969 revision established that homework ought to be voluntary ancillary work, but in the 1980 revision they returned as mandatory work. In the 1990 revision, homework was abolished in the curriculum and law, but remained in practice.


It is also a vital assessment tool - it is absolutely pointless to set, for example, extended written tasks in a lesson as that is boring and a waste of time. Homework is a perfect opportunity for extended writing tasks, and for more creative tasks such as planning group presentations, independent research etc.

Fuck group presentations. Independent research ought to be undertaken on subjects the students are interested in, or they will simply be turned off from that entirely. Are you also some kind of educational system professional?


To say that enabling students to learn independently and foster their creativity is 'reactionary' shows a lot of ignorance on your part about the role of education in a young person's development.

Oh, whatever. There's nothing wrong with fostering their creativity - is this what home work is, though? In what way? "Complete the math equations No. 210 to 275 in the book." "Read pages 75-79 in School Book 21, and answer the following questions related to the passages." "Write a comment on random news story." Homework is not something teaching "independent learning", independent learning cannot be taught by mandated assignments.

[Creative Destruction]

From which systems, though?

Different countries have different social conditions, different cultures, different population sizes, different resources. You cannot transplant these across and expect results, which is why I am attacking those who are advocating these blanket reactions without backing them up, without detailing anything at all.

From all the systems that are doing it better than the U.S.

Look, I don't think you can transplant an entire system into an entirely different culture. You're right about that. However: the United States is still the richest country in the world and we actively look for ways to cut that spending and to kill a teacher's ability to actually teach -- standardized testing included. This whole bullshit corporate reform crap going on is only making it worse...we're going in the exact opposite direction of where we should be going.

But this is the topic: homework doesn't help. At the very least, evidence for it being effective is conflicting, and, IMO (certainly from being a student) it only serves to restrict the after-school freedom of students. Piling on homework on an already overburdened generation isn't helping a damn thing.


As far as i'm concerned, it's just conjecture. I work with 'kids' every day and, whilst i'm certainly a beginner and no expert in the field of education, I can see exactly how silly it is to suggest we just abandon homework en masse. It's a silly suggestion.

It really isn't. There are probably some kids that it helps. Fine. Target it, specifically. But if you're pushing something that only generally helps a student test well -- rather than spend time with them in the classroom, helping them learn the material -- then it's not worth doing. It's not worth restricting a student's freedom and tying their marks to it.

[Sam_b]

Fuck group presentations.

God forbid we should be using schools to try and get people to work together and improve communication and teamwork skills, and attempting to create environments where everyone tries to help each other out.


Are you also some kind of educational system professional?

The question really is, are you? Because otherwise this pretending to be the authority on education schtick isn't really working for you.

[adipocere]

I think the education system itself needs to be abolished in favour of a collaborative environment focussed on instilling an enjoyment of learning in children so no, i don't support homework. It's harsh on the kids and harsh on the teachers who thus end up with even less free time outside of work.



Oh and fuck national testing. There's way too much and here in the UK there's even talks of getting 5 year olds to do it! Fucking 5 year olds!

I saw a bit on local news about a $60k school program to teach financial responsibility to 4 and 5 year old (mostly) black kids. They had no clue what was going on. Imagine about 30 bored, fidgeting children sitting on a floor under harsh fluorescent lights, while a man explains what savings accounts are.
Reporter to Teacher: well...what the is the point? do they even know what is going on?
Teacher: Well we don't know, were getting statistics on that.
Reporter to small girl: What is a quarter?
4-5 year old girl: (mumbling, looks tired) um...it something you use to talk?

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

The question really is, are you? Because otherwise this pretending to be the authority on education schtick isn't really working for you.

I was pretending I was an authority on it? You and The Boss are the ones who are doing that -- you work in those fields, so you must be right! Defend the status quo! More home work, preserve the educational systems!




well i looked through some of your posts to and you didn't spell correctly either, for example memorized (you spelled memorised) way to go. Maybe its the education system that sucks in your country, and i have a big feeling that you are from sweden.

It's spelled that way you fucking illiterate.

[Fourth Internationalist]

I personally find homework enjoyable (I'm in 10th grade). Homework is designed to help students practice what they learned in class that day, which I think it does quite well if one is receiving a good education (of course, in many cases this may not be the case). :)

[Sam_b]

you work in those fields

I don't work in school education, no. Unless we're just going to make a huge generalisation about all education now.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I don't work in school education, no. Unless we're just going to make a huge generalisation about all education now.

That depends, I suppose. Why are you defending the system?

[Red_Banner]

I was pretending I was an authority on it? You and The Boss are the ones who are doing that -- you work in those fields, so you must be right! Defend the status quo! More home work, preserve the educational systems!



It's spelled that way you fucking illiterate.


In American English and British English, there are different spellings.

[Sam_b]

Why are you defending the system?

Please highlight where I've defended the current education system. You'll notice (first post):

and thus there needs to be an overhaul of most conventional systems which sadly stick to a rigid 'curriculum' without being adapted for the student's (and not the states) need.

Also I'm sorry but I think it's out of order and highly suspect to be calling out someone from Belarus as a 'fucking illiterate' on his second/third language irregardless if English is your first language or not. It reeks of privilege.

[Red_Banner]

I wouldn't think it would make you better. Reading English in school never taught me anything at all. Many Russians I have encountered will have a very stilted and poor English because their method of learning is excessively bookish, they might be able to use it technically correctly, but will tend not to understand idioms and expressions well, and will be afraid of creatively applying the language; this is because the Russian educational system stresses rote learning and not organic adaptation and absorption.

What I get annoyed with so many Russians is they expect you to know their language perfectly.

English may be commonly taught in Russia, but here in the USA Russian is not commonly taught.

The Russian I've learned is by myself.

[Tim Cornelis]

Who decided making Takayuki a moderator was a good idea?

[Sea]

It's spelled that way you fucking illiterate.Actually you're both full of shit. The difference between 'memorise' and 'memorize' is precisely the same as the difference between 'color' and 'colour'. Stalinist Speaker is probably a 'Merican, with a 'Merican spellchecker. You're probably Bri-ish, with a Bri-ish spellchecker. By the way. in My opinion your missing a comma.
Who decided making Takayuki a moderator was a good idea?I wanna be a moderator!! Pretty pretty please!

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

How do we know that the lack of sufficient hours is not down to crappy teaching methods that make an inefficient use of school time?

Currently, schools in the UK are mandated to provide Special Educational Needs students with 30+ hours per week of individual guidance and help. Given that there are generally only around 25 or so hours per week of in-class teaching, i'd say that gives you an idea of the hours of learning it is necessary for all students to do in a week.

Teaching can always be improved, but students won't learn much if they aren't encouraged to work outside the classroom. In my school we set homework between once a week and once every fortnight. It builds on the work they do in the classroom, it's generally useful either insofar as it is interesting for the students to research something that's interesting for them, or to work as a group with each other independent of the teacher, or it gives them the chance to express themselves in the form of an extended written task.


So don't set extended written tasks in the classroom. Set them in the library, where it's meant to be quiet, where resources for independent research are closer to hand and more extensive than at home, and where there aren't a million and one distractions.

I think you're vastly over-estimating the resources a school has. At my school there are over 1,500 students. The library can't seat everyone. Besides, students seem to like homework that, as I said above, is set with a purpose and allows students to be creative and express themselves.




This is based on the assumption that homework does as you say, but there is no basis for this assumption.

It's not an assumption. It's been well researched. Homework that is interesting, well-planned, well-marked, where the teacher is clear with their intentions and gives good feedback, has a positive effect on a student's development. See:

http://educationendowmentfoundation.org.uk/toolkit/approaches/homework-secondary

[Stalinist Speaker]

Actually you're both full of shit. The difference between 'memorise' and 'memorize' is precisely the same as the difference between 'color' and 'colour'. Stalinist Speaker is probably a 'Merican, with a 'Merican spellchecker. You're probably Bri-ish, with a Bri-ish spellchecker. By the way. in My opinion your missing a comma.I wanna be a moderator!! Pretty pretty please! To bad friend i'm not an american and i don't live in an english speaking country, I am from Belarus. also i thought that every computer has a spellchecker.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Fuck group presentations.

Yeah, students hate those. :rolleyes:


Independent research ought to be undertaken on subjects the students are interested in, or they will simply be turned off from that entirely. Are you also some kind of educational system professional?

I see where this is going. Independent research into the works of Marx, Engels et al.?

Students love doing research on stuff they're interested in. A good teacher makes a subject relevant to students. If they tune the students into that topic, then I promise you, the students will engage with the work and will learn.

I don't really need your opinion on the subject to see that it generally works. And if by 'education system professional' you mean someone who spends all day and night learning about what makes kids tick and what helps them to learn best, what fosters their creativity and how to teach with a sense of social justice then yes, that is me.



Oh, whatever. There's nothing wrong with fostering their creativity - is this what home work is, though? In what way? "Complete the math equations No. 210 to 275 in the book." "Read pages 75-79 in School Book 21, and answer the following questions related to the passages." "Write a comment on random news story." Homework is not something teaching "independent learning", independent learning cannot be taught by mandated assignments.

As i've said, the key to any plank of teaching - including homework - is that it has a purpose, is clear, targeted and engages the students. I don't think anyone denies this.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

From all the systems that are doing it better than the U.S.

Look, I don't think you can transplant an entire system into an entirely different culture. You're right about that. However: the United States is still the richest country in the world and we actively look for ways to cut that spending and to kill a teacher's ability to actually teach -- standardized testing included. This whole bullshit corporate reform crap going on is only making it worse...we're going in the exact opposite direction of where we should be going.

I don't disagree with any of this. Don't confuse my attacking the nonsense of 'ABOLISH HOMEWORK NOW' with a defence of the current educational system. In the UK, the education system is bullshit, and from what I know it's worse in the US. I'm in full agreement there.


But this is the topic: homework doesn't help. At the very least, evidence for it being effective is conflicting, and, IMO (certainly from being a student) it only serves to restrict the after-school freedom of students. Piling on homework on an already overburdened generation isn't helping a damn thing.

The evidence isn't conflicting. Check the link I posted a few posts up. Crap homework from a crap teacher obviously won't help. But to then conclude that homework should be abolished is missing the point. Good teaching includes engaging students, setting tasks that stimulate them and encourage them to learn - learn about themselves, their subjects and the environment around them. Homework is a very useful tool in this regard.

[Remus Bleys]

Yeah, students hate those. :rolleyes:
Student presentation always turns into one person doing all the work. They are terrible.
edit: No one organizes anything and it's always shit, and everyone fails.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Also I'm sorry but I think it's out of order and highly suspect to be calling out someone from Belarus as a 'fucking illiterate' on his second/third language irregardless if English is your first language or not. It reeks of privilege.

How so? It was an mockery of the attempt to claim I was spelling memorise wrong because I did not use the american spelling, where the user was trying to be clever, and pointing out the spelling errors at all was in turn a response to the idiotic remarks about "hurr shitty swedish education blargh" - not a serious concern as regards the user's ability to type.


Who decided making Takayuki a moderator was a good idea?

Oh, yeah, what's that for? Fuck you too Tim, you're an arsehole as well. Not as if I have been using any powers wrong or so, so what? Just been keeping spambots away, not bothering anyone with warrantless bans or abuses of power.

[Stalinist Speaker]

It's spelled that way you fucking illiterate. well it doesn't say that in on my computer so to bad for you, it spells like that in british, well you can probably spell them on both ways when i really think about it.

[Tim Cornelis]

To bad friend i'm not an american and i don't live in an english speaking country, I am from Belarus. also i thought that every computer has a spellchecker.

Too bad*. Virtually every browser has spell check (computers don't), but you missed the point about British English versus American English.


Yeah, students hate those. :rolleyes:
.

Are you from a parallel universe where people enjoy homework and like group presentations?

[Red_Banner]

To bad friend i'm not an american and i don't live in an english speaking country, I am from Belarus. also i thought that every computer has a spellchecker.

I keep the spell checkers off.

It gets too annoying when they mark words in other languages as wrong.

[Stalinist Speaker]

Yeah, students hate those. :rolleyes:
I.

got to be honest with you, i hate group presentations, especially if it has anything related to politics and i have idiots in my group.

[Sea]

Yeah, students hate those. :rolleyes:I hated those when I was a wee lad. That's because, for me and those I hung out with, school was about bullshitting. However, weren't very good at bullshitting so presentations always got to us.
To bad friend i'm not an american and i don't live in an english speaking country, I am from Belarus. also i thought that every computer has a spellchecker.Well, nonetheless both spellings are accepted.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Are you from a parallel universe where people enjoy homework and like group presentations?

No, maybe i'm just in a school where the teaching is good, the environment is calm and the students respond to that?

[Remus Bleys]

No, maybe i'm just in a school where the teaching is good, the environment is calm and the students respond to that?
What is this mythical school where group presentations are fun and likeable?

[Stalinist Speaker]

What is this mythical school where group presentations are fun and likeable?

well hey, some people seem to like school and that type of presentations, so he is right in some way.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

My point is that anything needs to be done well to be effective.

I'm sure, given the broken nature of education systems in places like the UK and US, there is homework set, classes given, group presentation tasks given, that are thoroughly un-inspiring, boring, and do not engage the students, and that in some areas this is widespread.

My point is that the evidence with regards to homework, and my own experience, points to results of a factual nature that show good teachers, setting homework well, can hugely increase a student's learning and engagement through homework. You would really be throwing the baby out the bathwater to get rid of homework, when much of the problem with education today lies elsewhere (internal factors being testing, streaming, poor teaching etc., external factors being school funding and the wider nature of society, i.e. education is a means to a job in this world).

[Sam_b]

What is this mythical school where group presentations are fun and likeable?

It's probably down the road away from where other posters make huge generalisations about all school students?

[Per Levy]

since we're all here posting our personal anecdotes, homework was so boring and often times even stressful, and there was never anything there with creativity involved. it was always "read these pages" "do this math stuff" "see you tomorrow". and while we're at it, i hated school, im still a sociophobic mess because of it. also why are there grades in art class? i mean we're supposed to be artistic and than the teacher grades us for our art? isnt art super subjective anyway?

[Tim Cornelis]

Oh, yeah, what's that for?

For this:


Fuck you too Tim, you're an arsehole as well.

Your militant and aggressive conduct against everyone else who has opinions different from your own is obstructive while the tasks of moderators is to minimise obstructive conduct and facilitate debate.

[waqob]

No. Of course not. Home work is, as many teachers and educational personnel will admit, not intended for learning at all but to teach work ethics and discipline to children, and such rubbish we want nothing of. Home work was introduced in order to foster discipline and dedication to work, and therefore is counter-revolutionary and reactionary and must be destroyed.



Are you being sarcastic

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

For this:



Your militant and aggressive conduct against everyone else who has opinions different from your own is obstructive while the tasks of moderators is to minimise obstructive conduct and facilitate debate.

I don't believe in debate. Debate is useless, a perfunctory worthless circle-jerk that devolves into regurgitated nonsense invariably, that brings nothing forward and changes no one's minds. And you're an obnoxious contrarian arse yourself, anyway.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

All schoolwork as it exists should be reformed. Homework isn't necessarily the evil which some are presenting it however. It helps to break down the barrier between school and home. It can be changed without getting thrown out altogether. Perhaps instead of throwing it out, the way in which it is used could be changed.

I didn't enjoy doing 2 hours of math problems every night, but reading great novels was fun. It gave me an appreciation of literature which has lasted. Reading about history was interesting too, even though the content was quite often ideologically biased. One good thing about homework is that it allows kids to learn to take what they're learning out of the classroom and into their home. It can also help kids to review material learned in class to help gain greater mastery of it.

As for group presentations, while it felt awkward at first, I think I learned how to speak in front of people without being gripped by deep social anxiety.

Edit - takayuki is right about one thing, which is that smaller class sizes and a more dynamic pedagogy are more useful than most kinds of homework. I don't think it's a zero sum game though.

[Crabbensmasher]

No. Of course not. Home work is, as many teachers and educational personnel will admit, not intended for learning at all but to teach work ethics and discipline to children, and such rubbish we want nothing of. Home work was introduced in order to foster discipline and dedication to work, and therefore is counter-revolutionary and reactionary and must be destroyed.

I don't even know if this is sarcasm or not.

Still, hold on a second here, don't you think we're demonizing homework a bit too much?
Obviously, some people probably have biases when it comes to homework. Of course nobody likes getting homework. A lot of us are students too.
Can I just argue for the concept of homework though?
Here are two things. Let's just think about this rationally.

1. Somehow, I don't care what method you are for, but somehow, children must be taught. If you want to disagree with this, then I'd gladly appreciate an explanation of your views.

2. There will always be some form of undesirable tasks that have to be done in society.

Now, basically, let's put two and two together. What everyone's argument is coming down to is that homework teaches you, and instills in you the idea of performing unsatisfactory tasks.

I want to know, what's wrong with that?

If you think that in a communist society, there will be no undesirable tasks at all, you are detached from reality. There will always be things that require patience, time management, and dedication. I don't know, fixing a toilet, painting a room, learning a new language. There are TONS of those things.

Discipline and dedication to work really don't have to be bad things! Why are they being demonized? Yes, in a capitalist system, these can be used for malicious purposes, but don't you think we need discipline and dedication to work just in our everyday lives? Aren't these necessary to complete various day to day tasks? Without them, we would have short attention spans, lethargy, apathy, laziness, etc. Wouldn't you agree?

[Tim Cornelis]

I don't believe in debate. Debate is useless, a perfunctory worthless circle-jerk that devolves into regurgitated nonsense invariably, that brings nothing forward and changes no one's minds.

I'm well familiar with your angsty hipster position on debate, and it is why you're not suited for being a moderator. (In fact, it makes you unsuited for being a member of a forum because the sole purpose of a forum is debate -- incidentally, debate is the opposite of circle jerking).


And you're an obnoxious contrarian arse yourself, anyway.

Aahh. You got your feelings hurt so you lash out :crying: . What is it that makes me a contrarian? I agree with you, so then you must be a contrarian. Or is it that I have nuance which you lack?

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I reckon I've come into the debate late but I'll try and contribute regardless.

I feel like we approach education very much in the way capitalism has established. By this I mean, capitalism percieves time in structured segments (you're a baby then you're in school then you're in work then you're retired/you sleep then you work then you relax etc) so for capitalist society education is structured in an artificial manner. Homework could potentially be percieved as a means of breeching this by ensuring that learning is a constant act, a part of our everyday life and something we enjoy, but the reality is different as many in the thread have suggested. I see homework more along the lines of this assumption of some jobs that you will continue your work outside of paid hours in order to, essentially, make the next day more efficient for the bosses to extract more from your work.

[Sam_b]

Tim Cornelis can I remind you that this thread and the Learning forum is not for debating the merits of why somebody should or should not be moderator. Please keep this in mind.

[Zanthorus]

I think the 'point' of homework is to teach kids how to engage in self-directed learning and seek out information to complete a task by themselves rather than being fed information by a teacher.

I don't think this is a bad thing to learn, it's how I learned everything I know that I didn't subsequently forget after being tested on it. And it's how I learned about Marxism.

And I learned how to do it by procrastinating from doing homework.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I reckon I've come into the debate late but I'll try and contribute regardless.

I feel like we approach education very much in the way capitalism has established. By this I mean, capitalism percieves time in structured segments (you're a baby then you're in school then you're in work then you're retired/you sleep then you work then you relax etc) so for capitalist society education is structured in an artificial manner. Homework could potentially be percieved as a means of breeching this by ensuring that learning is a constant act, a part of our everyday life and something we enjoy, but the reality is different as many in the thread have suggested. I see homework more along the lines of this assumption of some jobs that you will continue your work outside of paid hours in order to, essentially, make the next day more efficient for the bosses to extract more from your work.

Two questions:

One - why, do you think, do the children of the bourgeoisie need to do homework as well?

Two - do you think its use in our current economic and educational system is the only possible use of it?

[Remus Bleys]

the tasks of moderators is to minimise obstructive conduct
Did you forget you are on Revleft or something?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

No (http://libcom.org/library/pedagogy-oppressed-paulo-freire), seriously (http://www.davidtinapple.com/illich/1970_deschooling.html), fuck (http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm) school (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/ferrer/originX.html).

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Two questions:

One - why, do you think, do the children of the bourgeoisie need to do homework as well?
Historically, the major bourgeois families (at least in Britain) sent their children to boarding schools so the concept of homework emerged in the schools of the working class families who would have once had their children working to earn a living to support their family and then were taught in a way that prepared them for work in the future. I think because of the gains made by the working class in the past, particularly parliamentary labour movements etc, and because of the apparent flaws and contradictions in boarding schools the educational programme of working class schools was adopted virtually universally.

Maybe. I'd have to look into it more but this fits my head sense. If anyone has anything to contradict this then I would more than welcome the... education.


Two - do you think its use in our current economic and educational system is the only possible use of it?
No, obviously, and even in out current education system I'm sure that some individuals probably gain a lot from it.

[Marshal of the People]

I think homework is silly, how dare they make me do school work in my free time! Various studies have shown that homework doesn't improve the academic performance of students (in some studies it has shown to decrease performance).

The whole education system in most countries around the world was designed to destroy creativity and the ability to question authority and instil obedience and discipline.

[Quail]

In the current education system, yeah homework is bullshit and often totally unnecessary. When I was a teenager I remember being set really pointless tasks just because the teacher was obliged to set some form of homework, whether they thought it would be worthwhile or not. I also remember homework being used as punishment. We got extra homework if we didn't behave. That is not what learning should look like.

Having said that, homework is really important for learning mathematics. I do as much of the homework I get from uni as possible because doing problems is how you really get to understand it. Obviously the kind of mathematics I am studying is different to the stuff you do in school, but I think it is worthwhile for students to go away and tackle problems on their own. I don't think it should be compulsory though - some people don't like mathematics and are never going to be interested in it or pursue it as a hobby, and those people shouldn't be forced to sit and do problems in their free time. If anything, compulsory homework probably puts people off actually learning certain things because, for example, if you're forced to copy a whole page of text with 3 blanks to fill in (something I actually had to do) for your chemistry homework, you're just going to end up resenting the subject instead of coming to appreciate how interesting it can be.

[RevolucionarBG]

I voted no, because not everyone have resources or conditions to do homework at home.

You can't expect from everyone to learn everything great at school, and then to use that at home, alone, to do something.
Or, maybe that family doesn't have money to provide everything that child need to learn/do homework at home, so it's another reason why there shouldn't be homework.
Not to mention that some parents even do homework for their children too...

So in general, I'm completely against that kind of idea.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

No (http://libcom.org/library/pedagogy-oppressed-paulo-freire), seriously (http://www.davidtinapple.com/illich/1970_deschooling.html), fuck (http://www.wesjones.com/gatto1.htm) school (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/ferrer/originX.html).

How can you say "fuck school" by citing Paolo Friere, who taught at adult schools? Friere had an issue with the theories underpinning bourgeois education, not education as such.


Historically, the major bourgeois families (at least in Britain) sent their children to boarding schools so the concept of homework emerged in the schools of the working class families who would have once had their children working to earn a living to support their family and then were taught in a way that prepared them for work in the future. I think because of the gains made by the working class in the past, particularly parliamentary labour movements etc, and because of the apparent flaws and contradictions in boarding schools the educational programme of working class schools was adopted virtually universally.

Maybe. I'd have to look into it more but this fits my head sense. If anyone has anything to contradict this then I would more than welcome the... education.


This makes a lot of sense as far as the British experience is concerned. Spending some time in bourgeois American public schools (fyi "public school" in the American, not British sense), I can attest to the fact that American bourgeois parents seem to push their kids to take on more homework than necessary, as if it's something that prepares them for a life in the elite.



No, obviously, and even in out current education system I'm sure that some individuals probably gain a lot from it.

I think this is a good point - in fact, the hard work and discipline needed for homework is arguably the kind of hard work and discipline activists need to organize too. The issue seems to be less with what people get from homework than the real life ramifications that come from students not doing it ever.


In the current education system, yeah homework is bullshit and often totally unnecessary. When I was a teenager I remember being set really pointless tasks just because the teacher was obliged to set some form of homework, whether they thought it would be worthwhile or not. I also remember homework being used as punishment. We got extra homework if we didn't behave. That is not what learning should look like.

Having said that, homework is really important for learning mathematics. I do as much of the homework I get from uni as possible because doing problems is how you really get to understand it. Obviously the kind of mathematics I am studying is different to the stuff you do in school, but I think it is worthwhile for students to go away and tackle problems on their own. I don't think it should be compulsory though - some people don't like mathematics and are never going to be interested in it or pursue it as a hobby, and those people shouldn't be forced to sit and do problems in their free time. If anything, compulsory homework probably puts people off actually learning certain things because, for example, if you're forced to copy a whole page of text with 3 blanks to fill in (something I actually had to do) for your chemistry homework, you're just going to end up resenting the subject instead of coming to appreciate how interesting it can be.

I find this nuanced view to be the kind which Socialists should take regarding education. Homework is important in math and science for practice, and important in literature and art for exposing students to the act of reading. In that sense, homework isn't necessarily this great evil.

What does seem to be problematic is the way that teachers will overload their students on homework, leaving them little time to fraternize and screwing over students who work more slowly than others. If a school plans for students of "average ability" to need to spend 2-3 hours on homework a night, dyslexics, people with ADHD, etc will spend up to twice that time.

Worst of all, it encourages social inequality, because bourgeois parents are best suited to help tutor their kids in their homework, while working class kids who have parents that are either busier or more poorly educated (or both) have to survive on their own.

[RedMaterialist]

Did Marx and Engels have homework?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Did Marx and Engels have homework?

Marx wrote a dissertation which is like a homework assignment on steroids. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1841/dr-theses/)

[Return_Of_The_Mac]

You need homework. I didn't do my maths homework ever, and I am really crap at maths because of that. Don't even know my times tables.

I did do my Latin homework (from time to time) and because of that I remember many of the grammar tables, and as such I did well in that part of my exam.

Tests are needed, most of the time. If you weren't tested in English (or your native language) and you leave school with no language skills whatsoever, you're not going to do too well. You need basic skills.

[BIXX]

When I was wrestling, I learned quicker and better how to do everything than in school. Of course, part of that was that I was doing physical activity, but another part that I consider far more important was that I was given encouragement and not made to feel bad when I didn't do as well. The coaches made sure to try and make everyone have a good time.

This was why my coaches sent kids to the Olympics. They taught out of love for teaching. And their wrestlers didn't need homework.

If school were structured in a way like that more, where you'd go to the people who did what you wanted and learned from them through actual experience and real life, I think students would learn far better. Also, students should be able to switch whenever they want until they find something they like.

This is a post-system idea.

However, no, homework should not be required. Many students know how to do the work but are simply dragged down by not doing homework.

[Sabot Cat]

I believe that homework isn't a matter of ethical or political principles, but a question of educational science. Does empirical research show that homework conducive to learning? Although the maintenance of institutions of compulsive learning, and the curriculum thereof are indeed policy questions, this is not.

[RO17]

Homework teaches discipline and it covering the things you learned several times a day helps you develop a better understanding and you will be able to see if you thoughts and inquiries are correct, if not, you will have questions that will be receptively answered.

[Orange Juche]

No. Of course not. Home work is, as many teachers and educational personnel will admit, not intended for learning at all but to teach work ethics and discipline to children, and such rubbish we want nothing of. Home work was introduced in order to foster discipline and dedication to work, and therefore is counter-revolutionary and reactionary and must be destroyed.

I agree with where you're coming from - I think school is nothing but a 12 step brainwash camp and it's mostly about discipline and molding new cogs for the machine - but I disagree that homework is reactionary and "must be destroyed" (that's awfully strong language for something like... homework, by the way).

I do think schooling should be radically different, class sizes, how students are taught, what they are taught, why they are taught it. It should be about both fostering whatever intellectual interests a student might have - from art, to reading, to science, to anything that really can be taught - as well as creating a literate population so as to have adults who can create a healthy functioning society. (Having a scientifically literate population is really important, for example, not to mention historically, etc etc).

School, as I imagine it, would be something we wouldn't recognize really today it would be so drastically different, and be student focused and driven - in such a way that students enjoy learning (as humans typically do, they just regiment it in such a way to make it painful). Homework, at times, could be necessary as far as what the student is taking. If someone is doing something Calculus related, doing work outside of the classroom is likely needed. Although, even homework would probably be different.

But altogether saying "people will go to school, then that's it" I think is unreasonable and unrealistic. I think we need to radically transform the education system into something far more positive, proactive, and encouraging.

This thread makes me feel old. :blink:

[Korin]

I do homework all the time.
-Autodidact.