Kanye West and the Confederate Flag

[Creative Destruction]

Kanye West has asserted that he has co-opted the Confederate flag as his own.


West also addressed one of the most controversial songs off his new album, "New Slaves," which is all about modern-day slavery and how racism is far from being dead. "I took the Confederate flag and made it my flag. It's my flag now. Now what are you going to do?" he said on AMP

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2013/11/04/kanye-west-confederate-flag-controversy

He didn't go beyond saying that in the interview, regarding the Confederate flag, but is this really something that Kanye West would be able to do -- to turn around the meaning of the flag, to convince the wider black community that this is cool? Or is that even a desirable thing to want to do?

The Young Patriots in the 60s tried this and failed. Kanye has the star-power and the bully-pulpit to do it, I'd suppose. I'm just not sure whether it's a desirable thing to do. It seems like it could make it easier for racists to go around saying it is acceptable for white people to go around flouting this racist symbol, because a black man is doing it. It's sort of the same cop that the Sons of Confederate Veterans use when they try to say that the Confederacy wasn't racist, and "look -- see, we have black people in our organization!"

[Red_Banner]

Well the CSA didn't care about the rights of poor white people either or the rights of whites in neutral states.

[G4b3n]

Keyne is an egotistical asshole who's music does nothing but worship and I mean worship bourgeois culture. With that being said, I don't think it is desirable for him to even take part in activism, unless we want to see more of the warped middle class view of social issues that is already so dominant.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

When he speaks I hear soft, warm air quietly being expelled from an anus

Sssssssssss pfft

[roy]

Keyne is an egotistical asshole who's music does nothing but worship and I mean worship bourgeois culture.

how so?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

People who have big egos like to hang out with Kanye because he makes them look humble.

http://img.timeinc.net/time/photoessays/2009/kanye_west/kanye_rolling_stone.jpg

Kanye probably thinks Jesus came to foretell the life of Kanye.

That said, Kanye's endorsement of things often shows how trashy they are, so perhaps it will drive southern white men away from CSA-pride.

[Camel]

Didnt jay z say Che is his hero?
Didnt lil wayne wear a communist T shirt and call himself a communist in a song


They're attention seekers looking to create controversy and stay relevant

Rappers glorify greed and the Get rich or die trying life style. I was brought up in a ''ghetto'' like place and most of my friends from childhood are into this culture and it just frustrates me. Cannot even talk politics with them as they start talking about the illuminati and anti christ

[RadioRaheem84]

I hope this thread doesn't disintegrate into an anti-rap thread. Not all hip hop is geared toward just the pursuit of attention seeking and money. Lots of rap is socially conscious. And I am not just talking about the pretentious rap styling of someone like NAS or Mos Def, two rappers I cannot stand what so ever, but even real hustler rap from Houston artists like Lil Keke and Z-Ro, who I love listening to because they paint a vivid picture of the streets and hustling through life, being pushed to do things they didn't want to do and wouldn't want to inflict on their kids. And those artists aren't total sellouts.

Kanye is an egotistical maniac who think that everything he produces is gold and thinks his record sales are a testament to his genius, not realizing he is just a media darling and his over exposure and over saturation is what leads to the bulk of his sales, i.e. the mainstreams market of rap doesn't know any other rappers.

Mainstream rap has been shitty for quite some time though.

[Thirsty Crow]

"It's my flag now".

So, welcome to the independent state of West Kanyeiria.

But really, what does that actually say about any attempted co-optation of the symbol? Nothing, absolutely nothing (unlike black people co-opting the "n word"), so why treat this as anything other than a weird publicity stunt (the passion of Kanye West indicates he's kinda good at it)?

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Why would you even want to expropriate a fucking slavemaster flag?

Wouldn't the more appropriate course of action be to use that shit as toilet paper?

[RedSonRising]

Kanye is an interesting figure. On the one hand, he's very conscious of cultural racism and how it relates to class and status ("Even if you in a Benz, you still a n****"), but at the same time, feels like putting a black face on the fashion industry and giving black designers access to that market as somehow being progressive, when it obviously doesn't strike at the heart of disenfranchisement that results from racism inherent in capitalism.

This flag shit is odd. I think he's trying to disempower racists by coopting the flag, but it won't be effective, the historical legacy is too strong. It's a noble effort though. Interested to hear the content of his new album and whether it makes him more class-conscious instead of turning his hatred of racism into a movement for blackened bourgeois culture.

[Blake's Baby]

I dunno. If it really annoys racists it might be good to do for a laugh.

Here, every year, there's a small fuss about St George's Day. It's not a national holiday, but there are some people who insist it should be celebrated because it's about 'Englishness'.

I sometimes adopt the position that celebrating a half-Turkish, half-Palestinian, Greek-speaking person who probably didn't exist, who's popular with Portuguese sailors and was introduced to this country by a gay Frenchman, is a great way of celebrating 'Englishness' (whatever that is anyway).

I quite like the idea of 'tainting' their symbols. There's something more subversive about a black man wrapping himself in the Confederate flag, than there is about a black man 'reclaiming' the n-word. The n-word refers to black people; it doesn't, in the end, matter so much to racists if black people try to reclaim it. The Confederate flag is for white people; if a black man takes it, that's stealing the white people's history and identity.

[RadioRaheem84]

I am sorry but all this stems from this pseudo-intellectual side a lot of rap artists from the coasts seem fit to put into their music. They think that by expanding their vocabulary and inserting some hot topic socio-cultural issues that they're somehow above the fray and above criticism.

I remember watching Mos Def on real time with Bill Maher and when pressed on issues by knee jerk Chris Hitchens, Def couldn't articulate a single thing found in his raps. He looked like a bit of a fool. I've always been utterly surprised by how dumb some of these artists end up looking, for instance Lauren Hill, Wyclef Jean (who's a corrupt as hell wannabe politician), NAS, some members of the Wu Tang Clan and more.

Kanye is just another example. He thinks that if he inserts some themes about race and includes a sample of Gil Scott Heron that he is now a champion of rights in America. I mean I really cannot stand this mentality that pervades the rap scene from the Coasts.

That's why I have just listened to Southern rappers like UGK, Three Six Mafia and Houston's Slim Thug, Z-Ro and Lil Keke, Scarface, etc etc etc. They're not trying to be pretentious and in the most vibrant way possible they describe what life is really like hustling in southern ghettos. They offer just straight narratives of life in these areas good or bad. That is why that brand of music is more popular than these moguls like P.Diddy, Jay-Z and Kanye among working class listeners of rap (especially in the heartland).

Rappers like Kanye and Jay Z are trying to win mainstream acceptance as a business enterprise. Trying to win ultimate respect from the establishment, no matter how ridiculously "anti establishment" they may appear.

[Blake's Baby]

OK; I'm not claiming it's radical. And I think Kanye West is a total fool. That doesn't mean I won't be slightly amused if he manages to annoy some racists. Perhaps 'subversive' is going a bit far. Really I meant 'amusing'. But being amusng for annoying racists is almost like subversive.

[RadioRaheem84]

OK; I'm not claiming it's radical. And I think Kanye West is a total fool. That doesn't mean I won't be slightly amused if he manages to annoy some racists. Perhaps 'subversive' is going a bit far. Really I meant 'amusing'. But being amusng for annoying racists is almost like subversive.

I think the closest you're going to get to "subversive" is the music I listed from artists like the ones I mentioned. Their rap pisses off the rap establishment for being too "thug" too "masochist" or what not. The dark lyrics coupled with the upbeat tunes offset the narrative of the dark ghetto under dealings.

If the rap game finds this work too "dark" or "too foolish" than they're doing something right. I mean can you believe the rap establishment saying that some rappers have gone too far by describing "thug life"??

Kanye's "get your mind correct" style of rap is just annoying and utterly repetitive. He's a buffoon capitalist that will not piss off any racists. Pissing off hardcore racists is hard to do when you attack their core.

Blacks going into a white establishment might anger them, but appropriating their flag won't. It's like calling white people crackers doesn't piss off a single white person in America. White people will just go on thinking that they're vindicated in their racist beliefs because a black man doesn't have a clue about the Confederate Flag and that he can appropriate it all he wants to, it will never demean the history of it to them.

It's a stupid stunt by Kanye. It's a move by another wannabe socially conscious rapper who is constantly revealed to be a hypocrite and a dumb ass, all the while telling other people to "get your mind correct". :rolleyes:

[RedHal]

chit chat material, it's difficult enough to avoid annoying egotistical pop icons in everyday life, don't need them showing up in the Politics forum. Political content of this publicity stunt is minimal, just trolling southern racists, which isn't too difficult.

[goalkeeper]

That said, Kanye's endorsement of things often shows how trashy they are

Erm...no, that is not true at all. Don't try and tell me VISVIM shoes are trashy.

[Brotto Rühle]

Whoa, God forbid the black guy take a racist symbol, and make racists angry by saying it's his now. God forbid.

[RadioRaheem84]

Whoa, God forbid the black guy take a racist symbol, and make racists angry by saying it's his now. God forbid.

Oh come on. It's not his and he won't piss off a single racist. You think they're that dumb to get agitated over a useless publicity stunt?

[Creative Destruction]

Didnt jay z say Che is his hero?
Didnt lil wayne wear a communist T shirt and call himself a communist in a song


They're attention seekers looking to create controversy and stay relevant

Rappers glorify greed and the Get rich or die trying life style. I was brought up in a ''ghetto'' like place and most of my friends from childhood are into this culture and it just frustrates me. Cannot even talk politics with them as they start talking about the illuminati and anti christ

You're a goddamn idiot. Shut the fuck up.

[Creative Destruction]

I remember watching Mos Def on real time with Bill Maher and when pressed on issues by knee jerk Chris Hitchens, Def couldn't articulate a single thing found in his raps. He looked like a bit of a fool. I've always been utterly surprised by how dumb some of these artists end up looking, for instance Lauren Hill, Wyclef Jean (who's a corrupt as hell wannabe politician), NAS, some members of the Wu Tang Clan and more.

I think that's being a bit too harsh. I write well enough and I can speak well enough to people in casual conversation, but if you get me in a stand up debate and I have no prepared remarks, then I'd be stumbling like hell all over everything. I'd look like a goddamn fool. That doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about, though. Just as well, it doesn't make these guys 'pseudo-intellectual' or whatever.

For all the shittiness that Hitchens became in the last decade of his life, he was still an extremely gifted orator. I would have felt extremely intimidated by him. Same could be said if I was put side-by-side with someone like Michael Eric Dyson or Cornel West. The pressure is all the more added when you're being filmed.

[Camel]

You're a goddamn idiot. Shut the fuck up.

why so hostile and insulting brother? you couldnt just reply to me stating why you think im wrong?

Fellow comrades are much more friendlier and easier to talk to in real life it seems.

[Alexios]

For all the shittiness that Hitchens became in the last decade of his life, he was still an extremely gifted orator. I would have felt extremely intimidated by him.

i cant get intimated by brits

[Firebrand]

Mainstream musicians in general are incapable of being truly subversive because the interests of those in charge of disseminating their music are fundamentally in favour of the status quo, you have to bear in mind who the kingmakers are. The mainstream form of any genre will always ultimately conform to the interests of the ruling class. The odd allegedly subversive artist will get through on the strength of public opinion and the fact that the individual interest of a particular record label (making shitloads of money) might conflict with the overall interests of capital (keeping the plebs in their place), but the overall tone of mainstream music will always serve the interests of the ruling classes.

Most genres will have radical and subversive artists, on their fringes even if the mainstream seems increasingly mindless and apolitical. For example in rap on one end of the scale you have people like Kanye West who act as advocates for soulless consumerism and on the other end you have people like Akala who use their music to make deep and incisive commentary on the misery caused by capitalism.

[Quail]

You're a goddamn idiot. Shut the fuck up.
Verbal warning for flaming. If you think someone has said something stupid, explain why instead of name-calling, especially if it's someone who only just joined the forum.

[#FF0000]

why so hostile and insulting brother? you couldnt just reply to me stating why you think im wrong?

Your statement was pretty dumb one way or another. Really typical "i hate rap becuz" that betrays total ignorance of the genre with a lil bit of latent racism mixed in. What, people in rock aren't known for the same shit that rappers are criticized for?

[Os Cangaceiros]

We got this new thing called classism. It's racism's cousin. This is what we do to hold people back. This is what we do. And we got this other thing that's also been working for a long time when you don't have to be racist anymore. It's called self-hate. It works on itself. It's like real estate of racism.

^I thought that was a pretty good quote of his recently.

Unfortunately all the other shit he said in the interview that was taken from was more-or-less incoherent nonsense about poor pitiful Kanye and what a burden it is being really wealthy and famous, people just don't understand :crying:

[ed miliband]

i went to watch a documentary about the underground hip hop (and experimental music) label stones throw last night. kanye was one of the people interviewed and he spoke quite extensively, intelligently and passionately about j dilla - for those who know their hip hop, that means something.

the thing is, kanye started out a conscious backpacker - the kind of hip hop leftists can happily nod along to and proclaim to be thoughtful and smart and intelligent. not like those other nasty rappers! people slagging him off for being rich and successful ignore that. his production hasn't changed (in fact, it's gotten better) and lyrically people really don't know what they're on about if they think he only talks about money and fame. you're missing the point a lot.

someone up there denounced kanye for being "in love with bourgeois culture", a) what does that even mean? like, i'd love to have lots of money and shit too, i don't blame kanye for loving that, and b) again - missing the point: kanye hates that shit as much as he loves it, that's the contradiction at the heart of his music, it's precisely what makes him so ridiculous and arguably hateable tbh.

as for this? it's just kanye trolling. why can't we just appreciate that.

[Os Cangaceiros]

i went to watch a documentary about the underground hip hop (and experimental music) label stones throw last night. kanye was one of the people interviewed and he spoke quite extensively, intelligently and passionately about j dilla - for those who know their hip hop, that means something.

the thing is, kanye started out a conscious backpacker - the kind of hip hop leftists can happily nod along to and proclaim to be thoughtful and smart and intelligent. not like those other nasty rappers! people slagging him off for being rich and successful ignore that. his production hasn't changed (in fact, it's gotten better) and lyrically people really don't know what they're on about if they think he only talks about money and fame. you're missing the point a lot.

someone up there denounced kanye for being "in love with bourgeois culture", a) what does that even mean? like, i'd love to have lots of money and shit too, i don't blame kanye for loving that, and b) again - missing the point: kanye hates that shit as much as he loves it, that's the contradiction at the heart of his music, it's precisely what makes him so ridiculous and arguably hateable tbh.

as for this? it's just kanye trolling. why can't we just appreciate that.

I mean, c'mon, he says a lot of shit that's just completely stupid. Like (paraphrasing) "I see homeless people and wonder who is really more free?" Are you fucking kidding me? That's the kind of shit only a rich ignorant person would say. There's nothing even remotely liberating about being poor and homeless, and it's ignorant to romanticize it.

[ed miliband]

I mean, c'mon, he says a lot of shit that's just completely stupid. Like (paraphrasing) "I see homeless people and wonder who is really more free?" Are you fucking kidding me? That's the kind of shit only a rich ignorant person would say. There's nothing even remotely liberating about being poor and homeless, and it's ignorant to romanticize it.

i think my penultimate point covers that when i say he's "ridiculous and arguably hateable" though. fact is the leftists slagging him off on here probably would have more respect for him saying that shite than if he was just like "i fucking love being rich and want more money", which they have the mistaken impression he's like. y'know?

no doubt he says a lot of stupid shit to be criticised for, most people on here manage to miss the point though.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

The Young Patriots in the 60s tried this and failed. Kanye has the star-power and the bully-pulpit to do it, I'd suppose. I'm just not sure whether it's a desirable thing to do. It seems like it could make it easier for racists to go around saying it is acceptable for white people to go around flouting this racist symbol, because a black man is doing it.

If they're already idiots and believe Kayne is the voice of all black people, I guess? Regardless, it's different for say Kayne, to take the CSA flag and say it's 'his' than some fat old white guys down south aka these Sons of the Confederate groups or whatever saying the confederacy wasn't this or that. Like, a lot different. He's saying, essentially, the CS flag now means whatever Kayne says it means so sayeth Kayne in the name of his Son, Lord Christ Kayne and has erased all power or legitimacy it may have had for racists for that is for Kayne due to it now being the property, intellectually and literally of Kayne...kayne. No more outlandish than his imperialist attempts at owning the North West, either tho.

[RedWaves]

It don't take much to piss off racists in America.

What's hilarious is how rednecks use that stupid flag, when the Confederacy didn't even last a decade. So in all reality they are waving a flag of failure. They ***** about anyone waving the flag of the Soviet Union but it sure lasted a lot longer than their stupid Confederacy. :laugh:

The Attitudes are all that is left from the old south and by the grace of Gawd they want to keep that hateful heritage alive no matter what.

To be quite real with you, you only see that stupid flag in the south, which is where I live. I don't like Kanye West, but more power to him for taking their symbol and rubbing it in their faces.

[Ocean Seal]

Oh come on. It's not his and he won't piss off a single racist.

I guarantee you this has pissed off a number of racists.


You think they're that dumb to get agitated over a useless publicity stunt?
Let me stop you there: yes.
If life experience has taught me anything its that racists are very stupid and will get mad regardless of what people do provided they aren't of the same race.

[The Jay]

When will he OD on some yey so that I won't have to hear anything else that this guy rambles on about incoherently? Sure, some of the things he says are correct but a broken clock blah blah blah. Between he talking about classism while supporting reactionary behaviors and Jay Z wearing a mao coat I think that I've just about finished with that shit.