Million Mask March

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

Anyone participate / witness one in your city?
Thoughts on it in general?

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/70934000/jpg/_70934644_70934434.jpg

[Anti-Traditional]

I hate them masks! I think a lot of the new aesthetics of protest is down to some activist-types who enjoy being part of a protest sub-culture as opposed to being one of the 'sheeple.'

Added to that, I think they are representative of a greater alienation permeating society, where the anonymous 'citizen' is the force for change, where we are all competing individuals who want nothing but to have our 'rights' respected. Its no coincidence that the masks are of Guy Fawkes, an conspiratorial terrorist.

[erupt]

Added to that, I think they are representative of a greater alienation permeating society, where the anonymous 'citizen' is the force for change, where we are all competing individuals who want nothing but to have our 'rights' respected. Its no coincidence that the masks are of Guy Fawkes, an conspiratorial terrorist.

In this age of mass globalization and surveillance, it's much more convenient to protest with a mask on, whether it's a a Fawkes mask, or a Scream mask.

Also, me being from the states, can you explain how Fawkes is a conspiratorial terrorist rather than an insurrectionist? I don't think he advocated continuous attacks to induce terror, but rather attempted to overthrow the King of England over Christian denominational differences. I'm not an expert on the matter, though.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

Is it antifa? They are protesting capitalism and central baking, so that's good.

[Anti-Traditional]

In this age of mass globalization and surveillance, it's much more convenient to protest with a mask on, whether it's a a Fawkes mask, or a Scream mask.

Also, me being from the states, can you explain how Fawkes is a conspiratorial terrorist rather than an insurrectionist? I don't think he advocated continuous attacks to induce terror, but rather attempted to overthrow the King of England over Christian denominational differences. I'm not an expert on the matter, though.

Perhaps insurrectionist would be a more appropriate word, but planning to blow up the House of Lords sounds like terror to me, and secretly plotting to do so in order that a new Catholic head of state can take the throne sounds pretty conspiratorial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_Plot

[Sam_b]

My thoughts on it in general were that it was an absolute heap of nonsense perpetuated by Assange fanboys and the like and has in instances included a dangerous conspiracy theorists and far right presences (ie see Glasgow conversations and so on). This article is pretty good (http://athousandflowers.net/2013/11/06/gunpower-treason-losing-the-plot-at-glasgows-millionmaskmarch/).

V for Vendetta rubbish can get to fuck as far as I'm concerned.

[reb]

I was watching a live stream and had a look at some websites. It just seemed to be a very bourgie thing with what appears to be a lot of students. Some of the rhetoric was ridiculous such as "billionaires corrupt politicians" and "return the government to the people" sort of thing. It was in a way reminiscent of the occupy movement and I wouldn't be surprised if it was mostly the same people involved. But to be fair, it's a lot more than nearly every left party/sect has accomplished. They do have genuine grievances but again, they are still stuck in the ideological structure of capitalist society. Why this is, I don't know. I don't know why they are following all of this conspiracy bullshit or libertarian propaganda but I suspect that it's from some of the reasons that I have implied above. But again, that has often always been the case.

[Red Commissar]

Most of the anon-types in my area tend to be ron paul fanboys, but they've never had much organization to do anything here beyond messing up some Kony posters when some group was really pushing that here.

I remember running across one when Occupy tried to make an event in Dallas before the cops came in after a few months. She sounded fine at first but it went into bizzare territory when she said something to the effect that "you know what's wrong with capitalism? There are too many lazy people". I thought that was ironic at first but she was dead serious, I found out later that at least with the major anon circle that many of them seem to be

That being said as far as turnout and numbers are concerned we shouldn't be the ones talking considering left groups own difficulties in getting people to turn out to their events.


Is it antifa? They are protesting capitalism and central baking, so that's good.

Unfortunately many of them might be coming from the position that it's not capitalism in of itself they are protesting, but crony capitalism or what ever adjective they want to describe as domination by corporations and collusion with the government. Ditto with the central banking bit, they usually approach it from a lolbertarian perspective (be wary of "end the fed" stuff).

As for anti-fa I don't think they are particularly active on that scene, though some of the internet "anon" groups did attack a far-right site once and leaked details of who was donating to that site (http://www.revleft.com/vb/ron-paul-exposed-t167388/index.html) (on a side note we found that one of our restricted/banned users was a donor). But the issue with "anon" in general is that it's pretty amorphous and not easy to pin down their beliefs- it all comes down to the people who'll organize the event and then show up.

[G4b3n]

This is entire event was near worthless. Why liberals have convinced themselves that the face of a theocrat ought to represent 'the people' is beyond me. This is what happens when working class movements disintegrate, the middle class convinces itself that it has some sort of duty to begin spewing quasi-revolutionary rhetoric while not challenging any real and existing power structures, only the idea and conception, which is a warped one to begin with.

[goalkeeper]

It seems to have been comprised of conspiracy theorists and sort new-age spiritual types (often to be found at "free parties" in the home counties) and sort of "anti-elite" types (often also very conspiratorial) moaning about corrupt politicians and corporations etc.

From watching videos, one thing that stood out was this guy yelling at the police to turn around and arrest the politicians. Now, not that I have any illusions about parliamentary democracy, but the prospect of the police (emphasis on the police as in the current police of the UK here, and not some hypothetical revolutionary organisation or whatever) arresting politicians doesn't sound like the route any revolutionary would want to go down.

[emilianozapata]

They should be commended for taking a stand against corruption, and a plutocratic government no matter what their political beliefs might be.

[Geiseric]

I hate them masks! I think a lot of the new aesthetics of protest is down to some activist-types who enjoy being part of a protest sub-culture as opposed to being one of the 'sheeple.'

Added to that, I think they are representative of a greater alienation permeating society, where the anonymous 'citizen' is the force for change, where we are all competing individuals who want nothing but to have our 'rights' respected. Its no coincidence that the masks are of Guy Fawkes, an conspiratorial terrorist.

Umm i'm not sure he was a conspiracy theorist. A lot of catholics in england and ireland were kind of oppressed by protestants...

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Why liberals have convinced themselves that the face of a theocrat ought to represent 'the people' is beyond me.
Honestly, I don't think most of them really know who he was beyond some dude who tried to blow up Parliament.

[o well this is ok I guess]

This is entire event was near worthless. Why liberals have convinced themselves that the face of a theocrat ought to represent 'the people' is beyond me. You could, you know, read the graphic novel or watch the movie they come from (V for Vendetta), you'd probably get a good idea of why Guy Fawkes masks are worn.
they aren't exactly hiding where they got the idea from.

[Remus Bleys]

You could, you know, read the graphic novel or watch the movie they come from (V for Vendetta), you'd probably get a good idea of why Guy Fawkes masks are worn.
they aren't exactly hiding where they got the idea from.The mask that Anonymous uses comes from the Epic Fail Guy meme from 4chan, and Anon adopted it for Project Chanology in order to symbolize the Fail of Scientology.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Umm i'm not sure he was a conspiracy theorist. A lot of catholics in england and ireland were kind of oppressed by protestants...

In all fairness, this is true. However it's important to mean that oppression does not give a blank slate of support. Of course Communists support the Irish in their struggle against British rule and oppose any discrimination against catholic insitutions; This doesn't mean that we support sectarian terrorists such as Guy Faux or defend the catholic church against the accusations of pedophilia

[Blake's Baby]

Umm i'm not sure he was a conspiracy theorist. A lot of catholics in england and ireland were kind of oppressed by protestants...

Anti-Traditional didn't say 'conspiracy theorist', he said 'conspiratorial terrorist'.

Which he was. He 'conspired' with other Catholics to blow up Parliament and put a Catholic on the throne.

It's the people who wear them that are conspiracy theorists (or at least, significant numbers of them are).

[Hrafn]

I've had one encounter with self-declared Anonymous. It was at a counter-protest against the Swedish Defence League. A bunch of 13-year olds turned up, waving their huge green-and-black flag in our faces, talking to the police, blocking the view, etc. One took off his mask to ask, "are you guys the Anti-Fascist Action?" Christ.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

I've had one encounter with self-declared Anonymous. It was at a counter-protest against the Swedish Defence League. A bunch of 13-year olds turned up, waving their huge green-and-black flag in our faces, talking to the police, blocking the view, etc. One took off his mask to ask, "are you guys the Anti-Fascist Action?" Christ.

That image has made my morning, thanks :laugh:

[Sam_b]

They should be commended for taking a stand against corruption, and a plutocratic government no matter what their political beliefs might be.

Oh really? So when some of the Glasgow event people are saying that "Zionist Jews run the banks" we should be congratulating them?

[goalkeeper]

They should be commended for taking a stand against corruption, and a plutocratic government no matter what their political beliefs might be.

That position would lead you to support a whole plethora of reactionary political movements.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

Nothing happened in my city - then again it rarely does.

I probably would have gone along if something had in the hope of maybe talking to a few people and helping them take their ideas to the logical conclusion, so to speak (it's not the banks and billionaires, it's the system itself etcetera.)

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Those masks are so fucking stupid. Nothing like enshrining a product of 3rd world sweatshops as a symbol of revolt and freedom. Not to mention time fucking warner gets royalties everytime some neckbeard buys one. The updated che shirt.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Sometimes I think about how the left needs to reach out to these people. I say, "I should go down there with my red and black flag, and start some discussions."

Then I have horrible flashbacks to the neckbeards I've met at stuff like this showing up at my house, getting high, and making inappropriate passes at my roommates, and addressing them as "M'lady".

I step back, I say, "You know, let the libertarian party have them."

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

OK, my frivolous post above aside, I think that these situations are complicated.
Often, these things are dominated by misogynistic white men who are convinced the NWO is why girls won't date "nice guys" - but that's not everyone. In any case, it's possible that even some of those men aren't write-offs and could be won over. Consequently, I've got two serious questions:

1. How do we find the diamonds in the rough in these situations? What is the best way of picking out solid folks, and not getting derailed in silly arguments about non-violence and the Bilderdurg Group?

2. In the case that we find our positions starting to resonate with "Why-can't-these-sluts-see-how-sensitive-and-sweet-I-am?" man-child libertarians, how do we engage them without creating situations where they will be utter liabilities? I mean, seriously, have you ever been in a meeting that has been derailed by a five minute rant about "memory metal"? Shit is awful.

[adipocere]

Yes the protesters are inarticulate and vague - American protesters tend to be particularly timid - but the fact that young people continue to come out in large numbers in the midst of relative stability indicates that there is genuine unrest and resentment building in society as a whole. These protests might be tame and kind of juvenile, but there is no reason to ridicule them - we should be reaching out and empowering these people, not dismissing their frustrations as memes and pop culture.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

This strikes me as more of a social gathering for a specific subculture rather than a protest. These people are not simply inarticulate, they're completely depoliticized. I mean, I assume the goal of this was to recreate the ending scene from v for vendetta right? This is role play, it's worse than a lot of the stupid shit leftist groups do.

[Sam_b]

These protests might be tame and kind of juvenile, but there is no reason to ridicule them

These protests are full of conspiracy theories and anti-semitism. Why should we be taking a position of supporting that sort of nonsense?

[Leftsolidarity]

I think most of these folks are useless anti-Semites, conspiracy theorists, and overall politically backwards.

There are some, though, who are simply confused, misguided, and not reached by socialist forces. As to how to find those folks, I'm not too sure but I know some and they come around some of the stuff we organize locally. They have some weird stuff sometimes but are genuine in their opposition to oppression and exploitation, their issue is that they aren't guided by a real revolutionary and anti-capitalist ideology.

This kind of stuff should be a symbol for Leftists as to why the ideology struggle is important.

[adipocere]

In all seriousness, what are some examples of antisemitism in these protests?

[Sam_b]

One of the Glasgow organisers, after being challenged on his assertion that "Zionist Jews run the banks":

http://s18.postimg.org/uck5fbh7d/1394262_624636857598759_1126511221_n.jpg

The fact that hundreds of these groups and the people who post on them link to mad Rothschild 9/11 inside-job conspiracy videos, that this stuff gets carried over to the megaphones on the streets...

You're telling me you've never heard any of this from Anonymous-y types before?

[Comrade Jacob]

It is sadly amusing to watch liberals attempt to be revolutionary.

That pretty much sums it up.

[adipocere]

One of the Glasgow organisers, after being challenged on his assertion that "Zionist Jews run the banks":

http://s18.postimg.org/uck5fbh7d/1394262_624636857598759_1126511221_n.jpg

The fact that hundreds of these groups and the people who post on them link to mad Rothschild 9/11 inside-job conspiracy videos, that this stuff gets carried over to the megaphones on the streets...

You're telling me you've never heard any of this from Anonymous-y types before?
I'm sure there are more examples of antisemitism so I'm not accusing you of cherry picking...but how representative are internet comments of anything? It's impossible to know who really said made that comment, it could very well have been people trying to discredit that particular protest. There is an well funded Zionist front group in Glasgow that has been whipping police into a jackbooted frenzy over antisemitism (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-18087379). (There is a very deliberate and disingenuous campaign to silence and discredit critics of Israel by crying antisemite at every chance. )

But yes, and I do think anonymous is bullshit. I do think the people are mostly well-intentioned however. They need information and it's clear they are receptive to whatever they can grasp at which is unfortunately crap like Inforwars. We should be reaching out to them, not marginalizing them further.

edit - would also point out that police and law enforcement infiltration and co-opting "anonymous" has been acknowledged.

[Red_Banner]

C38xSRpZqzo

[Sam_b]

.but how representative are internet comments of anything?

In Facebook events? With people who are going?


It's impossible to know who really said made that comment, it could very well have been people trying to discredit that particular protest

Funny because I know most of the people from opposing their unsafe and rape-apologising Occupy Glasgow endevours.


There is an well funded Zionist front group in Glasgow that has been whipping police into a jackbooted frenzy over antisemitism. (There is a very deliberate and disingenuous campaign to silence and discredit critics of Israel by crying antisemite at every chance. )


Giffnock isn't in Glasgow, and no, they have not been 'whipping police into a jackbooted frenzy' in Glasgow based on one incident from last year. You'd have thought being a Palestine activist in Glasgow I'd know all this stuff already right? Though maybe you've been on the same demos and stalls I have and know exactly what we've been up against over the past couple of years. You've just made something up based on a Google search.


We should be reaching out to them

So, we should be 'reaching out' to a den on antisemitism, conspiracy theories and the like? Because this has been tried hundreds of times here already, and all we have got to show for that is a very, very damaging statistic of abuse, victim-blaming and sexual assaults from them. So no, fuck them.

[Leftsolidarity]

I'm sure there are more examples of antisemitism so I'm not accusing you of cherry picking...but how representative are internet comments of anything?

I've talked to a number of folks of this type that have said anti-Semitic shit. I've been told that Jews are actually alien species. There are some real nutters out there.

[adipocere]

In Facebook events? With people who are going?

Funny because I know most of the people from opposing their unsafe and rape-apologising Occupy Glasgow endevours.

Giffnock isn't in Glasgow, and no, they have not been 'whipping police into a jackbooted frenzy' in Glasgow based on one incident from last year. You'd have thought being a Palestine activist in Glasgow I'd know all this stuff already right? Though maybe you've been on the same demos and stalls I have and know exactly what we've been up against over the past couple of years. You've just made something up based on a Google search.


So, we should be 'reaching out' to a den on antisemitism, conspiracy theories and the like? Because this has been tried hundreds of times here already, and all we have got to show for that is a very, very damaging statistic of abuse, victim-blaming and sexual assaults from them. So no, fuck them.
Wipe the foam off your mouth. All you are offering is one screenshot of people condemning a racist commenter to prove that they are all rape-apologizing antisemitic reactionary conspiracy theorists and fuck them. Ok, whatever.

On the side note: From my experience, police don't raid peoples homes due to complaints by special interest groups over racist comments made on the internet...however where I live, the targets of racism are mostly black. Maybe police are just more enlightened in Scotland and would kick in the door of any facebook bigot. However, focusing on that one incident is a strawman either way and has nothing to do with antisemitism on the street, which you probably have experienced and figures into your position.

Regardless, I think it's a shitty attitude to have about people who demonstrated all over the place, in several countries, for a variety of reasons and I think blanketing people with dismissive stereotypes is unhelpful.

[adipocere]

I've talked to a number of folks of this type that have said anti-Semitic shit. I've been told that Jews are actually alien species. There are some real nutters out there.

I'm not entirely surprised, but I haven't heard much of it myself. On the whole, people around here don't tend to have weird ideas about Jewish people. They're too busy blaming blacks for everything.

[Sam_b]

Ok, whatever.

Do you want more? I can give you more. Please forgive me for foaming at the mouth, considering the last time these very same people amassed a woman was gang raped (http://libcom.org/news/open-letter-glasgow-womens-activist-forum-occupy-glasgow-01112011) , they refused to leave when faced with an outcry from womens groups and much of the Glasgow left on this, were overrun by anti-semitic conspiracist elements, and basically fucked up a lot of the rep of Glasgow activists who had not far long finished one of the most successful occupations in student history (and we had to kick a bunch of these folk out too). These people are the same people, the same political culture and same ringleaders we've seen here for a couple of years who create an unsafe space. I don't know if you grasp how serious this is or not.

[adipocere]

Do you want more? I can give you more. Please forgive me for foaming at the mouth, considering the last time these very same people amassed a woman was gang raped (http://libcom.org/news/open-letter-glasgow-womens-activist-forum-occupy-glasgow-01112011) , they refused to leave when faced with an outcry from womens groups and much of the Glasgow left on this, were overrun by anti-semitic conspiracist elements, and basically fucked up a lot of the rep of Glasgow activists who had not far long finished one of the most successful occupations in student history (and we had to kick a bunch of these folk out too). These people are the same people, the same political culture and same ringleaders we've seen here for a couple of years who create an unsafe space. I don't know if you grasp how serious this is or not.

Thanks for the link.
What a mess about the rape, and then this gem in the comments: "The Occupiers cannot be expected to police the homeless who hover around the square."
No matter how you look at that statement...Jeez...:unsure:

[Five Year Plan]

Do you want more? I can give you more. Please forgive me for foaming at the mouth, considering the last time these very same people amassed a woman was gang raped (http://libcom.org/news/open-letter-glasgow-womens-activist-forum-occupy-glasgow-01112011) , they refused to leave when faced with an outcry from womens groups and much of the Glasgow left on this, were overrun by anti-semitic conspiracist elements, and basically fucked up a lot of the rep of Glasgow activists who had not far long finished one of the most successful occupations in student history (and we had to kick a bunch of these folk out too). These people are the same people, the same political culture and same ringleaders we've seen here for a couple of years who create an unsafe space. I don't know if you grasp how serious this is or not.

I can point to rapes and other crimes that took place in occupy encampments, and to the large middle class milieu that gravitated toward occupy protests, including a very large chunk of libertarian types who would rail on and on about the federal reserve and the Bilderberg group. Were you up in arms about Occupy protests, and how worthless they were? How is it different than this million mask march?

Nobody is saying rape isn't a big deal, so please don't go there. We're saying that large amorphous movements like Anonymous and Occupy shouldn't be pigeonholed because of what some pecentage, certainly a minority, do or think. What revolutionaries ought to do is work with them on the streets toward shared pro-working-class goals (where they exist) while encountering reformist illusions and reactionary ideological baggage like sexism and racism participants might have.

[Sam_b]

I can point to rapes and other crimes that took place in occupy encampments, and to the large middle class milieu that gravitated toward occupy protests, including a very large chunk of libertarian types who would rail on and on about the federal reserve and the Bilderberg group. Were you up in arms about Occupy protests, and how worthless they were? How is it different than this million mask march?

Yes, actually, yes I was - because they were worthless within the UK context. Occupy has understandably been a significant thing within the context of the US but the mass mobilisations were never going to be seen here. As such, the majority of Occupy, in particular in Scotland, was merely small groups of these dangerous people in Anonymous masks who catastrophically fucked up numerous times with regards to women, LGBT politics and class politics in general.


Nobody is saying rape isn't a big deal, so please don't go there

No, no no. I will fucking go there when the Occupy protest on my doorstep has a gang-rape happen within it, amongst other instances; and the Occupy Edinburgh an hour along the road engaged in sexism and racism.


What revolutionaries ought to do is work with them on the streets toward shared pro-working-class goals (where they exist) while encountering reformist illusions and reactionary ideological baggage like sexism and racism participants might have.

This applies to the US but absolutely does not to the so-called 'movement' in Scotland.

[Five Year Plan]

Yes, actually, yes I was - because they were worthless within the UK context. Occupy has understandably been a significant thing within the context of the US but the mass mobilisations were never going to be seen here. As such, the majority of Occupy, in particular in Scotland, was merely small groups of these dangerous people in Anonymous masks who catastrophically fucked up numerous times with regards to women, LGBT politics and class politics in general.

This applies to the US but absolutely does not to the so-called 'movement' in Scotland.

What do you think the differences are between Occupy in the US and Occupy in the UK? That one was a mass movement and the other wasn't?


No, no no. I will fucking go there when the Occupy protest on my doorstep has a gang-rape happen within it, amongst other instances; and the Occupy Edinburgh an hour along the road engaged in sexism and racism.

The "there" I was telling you not to go to was the idea that people somehow don't care about rape just because they don't go along with your decision to decry an entire movement on the basis of one event involving a handful of people. The seriousness of rape isn't in question. What's in question is whether it's fair to take the anti-social actions of a few in a highly decentralized movement as representative of the propensities of a much larger group. Repeating over and over again where the rape you're referring to happened might explain why you feel particularly angry about the event, but it doesn't bear on the issue of whether it's fair to generalize your anger onto the entire movement in your country.

[Sharia Lawn]

I hate the self-congratulatory bullshit of Anonymous, honestly. They show up at every march and protest and desecrate them with their stupidity. No one likes them or wants them at their events, yet they show up with at every function with their cringe-worthy masks and awkward political language.

I think they need to be exposed to revolutionary perspectives, and so revolutionaries should try to engage with them at events and such, cooperating toward ostensibly common goals while exposing them to the program of revolutionary socialism in order to bring to light the juvenile essence of this silly organization and re-channel the invested human energy in it into revolutionary politics.

[Sam_b]

Repeating over and over again where the rape you're referring to happened might explain why you feel particularly angry about the event, but it doesn't bear on the issue of whether it's fair to generalize your anger onto the entire movement in your country.

Thirty people in a few towns in Scotland is not a fucking movement! It's not the student demonstrations, the anti-bedroom tax movement, the labour movement which recently showed strength in the UCU strike, it's a handful of seriously dangerous people that have been hurting real working-class efforts for change here. You absolutely cannot see this as just some sort of extension of what has happened in the United States. We do not work with people when it is an unsafe environment for our comrades, and we don't encourage it either.

[Blake's Baby]

... the people who wear them ... are conspiracy theorists (or at least, significant numbers of them are).

I stand by this; but don't you see any reason to engage with them Sam b? The local manifestation of Occupy here was substantially filled with your comrades from the SWP (you were still in the SWP in late 2011 weren't you?)

There is certainly a strong strain of NWO-ZOG idiocy in (especially) the net-based forms of Occupy/Anonymous; I've not seen any manifestations of sexism beyond what what is sadly the norm in society, though obviously I'm aware of the rape in Glasgow and the concerns of female comrades in London and elsewhere about safety at Occupy protests; I think you're right that it's ridiculous to seriously consider Occupy in the UK to be 'movement' like the student protests (except in so far as the wave of occupations at the UK universities preceded the 'Occupy Wall Street'-inspired movement); and the recent shenanigans at the Anarchist Bookfair in London, where Anonymous-masked supporters of Assange (?) were 'agressively' photographing female comrades who told them in no uncertain terms to stop (they didn't) was pretty sickening (on the other hand, anyone can buy a mask).

But do you really think anyone connected to Anonymous/Occupy is lost?

[Sam_b]

The local manifestation of Occupy here was substantially filled with your comrades from the SWP (you were still in the SWP in late 2011 weren't you?)

No I wasn't. And again, I am not operating or working in a place that is dangerous to women, where friends and comrades of mine have been attacked.

[Blake's Baby]

That's not really an answer, though.

'Is everyone connected with Occupy/Anonymous lost, in your opinion?'

[Os Cangaceiros]

That would be pretty sad if that was someone's actual opinion. A lot of people in Occupy, at least in the states, had come to the conclusion that there was a chronic sickness within the political economy of this country, pitting those who own the country's resources and money against those who don't. Granted they weren't "communists", but as far as fertile ground for planting your own ideas, there's a hell of a lot more potential in that than there is in the vast majority of situations that a leftist may find him or herself in.

(And I mean spreading broad ideas, not just trying to gather or steal members for your little left-wing org)

[Sam_b]

'Is everyone connected with Occupy/Anonymous lost, in your opinion?'

Fuck the lot of them.

edit - also not an answer to the things you insinutated and didn't want to hear but w/e.

[Blake's Baby]

For fuck's sake Sam, what are you on? I'm not 'insinuating' anything. If you want to take my question about the SWP as a snide 'oh but you're a rape supporter too', then good luck to you.

Occupy Leicester (the city I live in) was mostly SWPers. All I was asking was, were you in the SWP at the time the SWP here was in Occupy Leicester?

I'm aware that you split from the SWP, at some point in the last few years, that's all. I don't know when you left. Strangely enough, the history of your political positions is not uppermost in my mind.

Straight question: is everyone connected with Occupy/Anonymous lost?

Straight answer: fuck the lot of them (I take it that means 'yes').

Thanks, that's all I was after.

[Sam_b]

This isn't a discussion about the SWP trying to take over things.

[Blake's Baby]

Oh my monkeys.

You are an ex-SWPer. The SWP are (or were) involved in a campaign. You criticise that campaign. I'm trying to determine if your criticisms of that campaign include your ex-comrades being in it, and at what time you might have left the SWP.

It's got nothing to do with 'the SWP taking over a campaign'. I don't know if they did anywhere else; I don't even think they did here. From what I can tell, Occupy was established by SWPers here. But as I say, this isn't about take-overs. It's about the relationship between the SWP being involved (just involved) in a campaign, and that campaign being criticised by an ex-SWPer.