two members of golden dawn shot dead

[bcbm]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24780379

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

:lol:

http://global3.memecdn.com/you-came-to-the-wrong-neighborhood_o_2164891.jpg

Love it.

[adipocere]

:lol:

Love it.

"The co-rider got off [the bike] and in cold blood executed two young men at a distance of about half a metre. Before leaving the terrorists fired again … they literally emptied their weapons [of bullets] on top of them."


Yeah that is sooooo cool.... :unsure:

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

"The co-rider got off [the bike] and in cold blood executed two young men at a distance of about half a metre. Before leaving the terrorists fired again … they literally emptied their weapons [of bullets] on top of them."


Yeah that is sooooo cool.... :unsure:

Shit happens, c'est la vie.

[DasFapital]

lulz

[Goblin]

Ah, feels like Christmas :grin:

[Sinister Intents]

Hahahaha :D fuck the fash.

[Remus Bleys]

"The co-rider got off [the bike] and in cold blood executed two young men at a distance of about half a metre. Before leaving the terrorists fired again … they literally emptied their weapons [of bullets] on top of them."


Yeah that is sooooo cool.... :unsure:
Do you want us to cry over dead fascists?
I'm so sorry you got killed for beating up minorities and actively demanding an end to class struggle.

If you can't even accept "terorists" here, how can you be revolutionary?

[Yuppie Grinder]

"The co-rider got off [the bike] and in cold blood executed two young men at a distance of about half a metre. Before leaving the terrorists fired again … they literally emptied their weapons [of bullets] on top of them."


Yeah that is sooooo cool.... :unsure:

I was surprised by this comment until I saw CPUSA in your profile description, lol.

[adipocere]

I was surprised by this comment until I saw CPUSA in your profile description, lol.

Yes it's like gazing into a fucking crystal ball isn't it...

[Comrade Chernov]

The "Communist" Party of the USA? Oh yeah, totally a crystal ball of liberalism.

[adipocere]

Do you want us to cry over dead fascists?
I'm so sorry you got killed for beating up minorities and actively demanding an end to class struggle.

If you can't even accept "terorists" here, how can you be revolutionary?

Ok you're right. Cheering for what is, at best, reactionary gang violence is the correct position for revolutionaries.

[Remus Bleys]

Ok you're right. Cheering for what is, at best, revolutionary violence is the correct position for revolutionaries.
Fixed.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

"Every war has it's casualties"

[Magic Carpets Corp.]

Seems random. Shoot three low-ranking members guarding a party office? If it was political, someone higher in the hierarchy would have been killed instead. 9mm cartridges on the scene. Incidentally, the Hellenic Police's standard issue handguns are 9mm USPs and Model 910s. I bet the Golden Dawn members in the Hellenic Police force are responsible. Now the GD gets to play the victim, regain sympathy with the population they lost after the murder of that rapper, try to reverse their recent bad fortunes.

[synthesis]

Fixed.

Killing fascists isn't revolutionary violence. Now, I do think that the CPUSA would condemn actual revolutionary violence if and when it occurs, but this isn't it.

Not to say that there isn't a side of me that thinks this is awesome. "Communist drive-bys!"

[Creative Destruction]

Rooting on violence from the safety of your computer is pretty goddamn juvenile. No revolutionary should celebrate the death of a human being. I'm not going to lose sleep over the death of some fascists, but it's wrong to celebrate it, too. Just like when the Navy took out bin Laden and people all across the country had parties over it. That was disgusting.

With all that said, this was not revolutionary violence. This was low-level, retaliatory thuggery. You don't win the people over with shit like this. It's not smart, it's not effective, it's not revolutionary. It's cut from the same stupid, reactionary cloth that was the basis of the Weather Underground's violence.

[Taters]

Seems random. Shoot three low-ranking members guarding a party office? If it was political, someone higher in the hierarchy would have been killed instead. 9mm cartridges on the scene. Incidentally, the Hellenic Police's standard issue handguns are 9mm USPs and Model 910s. I bet the Golden Dawn members in the Hellenic Police force are responsible. Now the GD gets to play the victim, regain sympathy with the population they lost after the murder of that rapper, try to reverse their recent bad fortunes.

I'd like to kill this little conspiracy theory before it hatches and say, incidentally, 9x19mm is the most popular pistol round in the world. I also fail to see how killing low-ranking members of a political organization is necessarily apolitical.

[d3crypt]

Thats what these nazi fuckers get! Death to the nazi scum! :grin:

[Bala Perdida]

The death of any and every human being is a tragedy, this mainly applies to their family, friends, and in this case fascist sympathizers. I feel bad for the mourners having lost someone. I feel bad for the individuals because they died before their time and all they achieved was notoriety for their irrational discriminatory way of thinking.
And while I won't say they deserved it, I also won't say they didn't have it coming. We are all soldiers in a battlefield fighting for a cause. In the line of war there is no back story, there is only a target and a gun. So this is only a mission accomplished for our side. Please don't misinterpret this.
So I guess what I'm saying is I support the anti-fascists, but this is no different than the American people supporting their troops.

[synthesis]

I'd like to kill this little conspiracy theory before it hatches and say, incidentally, 9x19mm is the most popular pistol round in the world. I also fail to see how killing low-ranking members of a political organization is necessarily apolitical.

That's what I was thinking. Finding 9mm rounds anywhere isn't really evidence of anything. And yeah, it's just as political as the murder of the rapper - symbolic more than utilitarian. "Look what we can do and aren't afraid of getting caught for."


Rooting on violence from the safety of your computer is pretty goddamn juvenile. No revolutionary should celebrate the death of a human being. I'm not going to lose sleep over the death of some fascists, but it's wrong to celebrate it, too. Just like when the Navy took out bin Laden and people all across the country had parties over it. That was disgusting.

With all that said, this was not revolutionary violence. This was low-level, retaliatory thuggery. You don't win the people over with shit like this. It's not smart, it's not effective, it's not revolutionary. It's cut from the same stupid, reactionary cloth that was the basis of the Weather Underground's violence.

yawn

[Sasha]

no tears lost but neither an productive revolutionary act.

and while very much in the style of the "revolutionary struggle" group until we see an communique taking credit we shouldn't assume too much, dont forget that the GD is also an criminal enterprise deep into extortion and the drug, weapon and women trade. it could be just inter criminal gang warfare.

and last but not least, while i hate the "false flag" screamers as much as everyone else the strategy of tension is very much alive in greece, if this turns out to be claimed by RS or a similair group that doesnt mean that the secret police isnt deeply involved. this is the shit they love to steer armed groups they have their fingers in towards, "brutal war between the extremists" makes the law and order of the state looks good.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Good riddance.

Sympathy stops when people murder and terrorize human beings because of their looks and where they come from.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Yeah they don't deserve anything other than a shower of lead. That's what all fascists deserve, they're the enemies of all of humanity

That doesn't mean they should be dehumanized, I see them as human beings who may or may not have come to their views through various experiences, but still when they serve in their capacities as fascists they deserve whatever they get as far as I'm concerned. Although I guess it's nothing to celebrate...

[ВАЛТЕР]

Good! Fuck them and everything they love. I hope for more such actions.

[Tim Cornelis]

All I can say is I wouldn't be capable of doing such a thing. In the past when I did some sort of 'pranks' in high school, I saw a teacher's eyes before we threw water balloons into his class room -- kind of a shocked gaze. It didn't make me feel bad but if them had been bullets instead water balloons I could totally imagine such a look being branded into my memory haunting me forever. Killing random Golden Dawn members would constantly make me think that, maybe, in 20 years the person killed would have been a regular father and teacher voting PASOK or whatever, and now I snubbed out his chance to redeem himself. It would haunt me.

As's been said, a death is a tragedy. Tragic that his life's path lead him there. That doesn't mean no one ever deserves death, but it's still tragic.

The scenario of civil war would be different though. Then is no longer a question of redemption but of victory.

[Thirsty Crow]

Good riddance.

Sympathy stops when people murder and terrorize human beings because of their looks and where they come from.
How about some political perspective?

This action comes in the context of the Greek prime minister openly calling and announcing "intolerance" towards both "extremist" camps in Greek society, the other one being "anti-EU and anti-NATO". Now, you can take a wild guess just how the state might respond to this murder, and what kind of actions can be expected.

Anyone saying "I hope for more such actions" is an imbecile living in the past, pretending that 1) there is a mass of revolutionary workers and that 2) they, and communist militants, are equipped for a struggle that can take on the form of armed clash (both of which implies an open revolutionary situation). In short, you're all a bunch of deluded idiots.




and while very much in the style of the "revolutionary struggle" group until we see an communique taking credit we shouldn't assume too much, dont forget that the GD is also an criminal enterprise deep into extortion and the drug, weapon and women trade. it could be just inter criminal gang warfare.

and last but not least, while i hate the "false flag" screamers as much as everyone else the strategy of tension is very much alive in greece, if this turns out to be claimed by RS or a similair group that doesnt mean that the secret police isnt deeply involved. this is the shit they love to steer armed groups they have their fingers in towards, "brutal war between the extremists" makes the law and order of the state looks good.
All very good points. And no, it would not surprise me in the least if it turned out that this was a false flag op.

[Comrade Jacob]

How sad...;)

[Hrafn]

There is no tragedy in this, and to the day I day I'll claim that anyone who says otherwise is a bleeding-heart liberal.

[TheSocialistMetalhead]

Unsettling news and not necessarily good news (as far as someone dying can be good). Now let me put forward my own little conspiracy theory.
It goes like this: The GD party leadership decided they weren't doing good enough in the polls after the murder of the rapper by one of their members. They hired a couple of crooks to murder some low-ranking members of the party thereby causing a lot more people to sympathize with them and convincing even more voters the "far left" is not what they should support because they're the most obvious suspects.
At any rate, the victims' families have my sympathy.

[Red_Banner]

:lol:

http://global3.memecdn.com/you-came-to-the-wrong-neighborhood_o_2164891.jpg

Love it.

Um, have you read Engels' "On Authority"?

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm

[Lily Briscoe]

bleeding-heart liberal.
Bleeding-heart liberals* > ridiculous macho posturing and laughing over street executions (i.e. a huge proportion of the responses in this thread)

*also, I think when people in this thread talk about "liberals", it isn't meant as a political description, it's just a politically-correct way of calling someone a pussy.

[synthesis]

*also, I think when people in this thread talk about "liberals", it isn't meant as a political description, it's just a politically-correct way of calling someone a pussy.

I would argue instead that it is being used to describe people who describe themselves as revolutionary but oppose violence as a symptom of revolution for reasons rooted in bourgeois moralism rather than working class politics.


Bleeding-heart liberals* > ridiculous macho posturing and laughing over street executions (i.e. a huge proportion of the responses in this thread)

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg80/smurph31/yawn.gif

[Art Vandelay]

Oh man I'm late to the party, but to be honest, I don't care if this was productive or not from a class struggle perspective, I'm just happy there are two less wanna be nazi scumbags in this world. No platform to fascists, heh, more like no fascist left unfilled with lead.

[LiamChe]

I like the article's obligatory use of the word "terrorists," whenever GD murders a few immigrants, that's not what they're usually called. Anyways this is good news, hopefully the Greek people start to take more of these measures to get rid of their fascist problem :)

[Remus Bleys]

I like the article's obligatory use of the word "terrorists," “We stand for organized terror - this should be frankly admitted." Felix Dzerzhinksy

Any leftist would do well to be called a terrorist by the Bourgeoisie State.

[Hrafn]

Bleeding-heart liberals* > ridiculous macho posturing and laughing over street executions (i.e. a huge proportion of the responses in this thread)

*also, I think when people in this thread talk about "liberals", it isn't meant as a political description, it's just a politically-correct way of calling someone a pussy.

So I guess liberal humanism is to be left uncritiqued.

[Os Cangaceiros]

The possibility that two Golden Dawn members shot dead outside party offices in northern Athens on Friday were killed by members urban guerrillas is being treated by the police as the most likely explanation for the attack.

The raid left two men, 22-year-old Manolis Kapelonis and 26-year-old Giorgos Fountoulis, dead and a third, 29-year-old Alexandros Gerontas, fighting for his life. Gerontas was hit by a bullet and underwent a splenectomy on Friday night. He was then transferred to an intensive-care unit, where his condition was described as critical.

The three men were shot outside Golden Dawn’s offices in Neo Iraklio. Police said that two men wearing crash helmets were involved in the attack, although it is possible that there were accomplices at the scene. The two men got off a motorbike they parked across the street from the neo-Nazi party’s offices, walked up to the victims and one of the pair opened fire. Twelve bullet casings were recovered from the scene. It is believed that the assailants used a Zastava semi-automatic revolver.

Kapelonis and Fountoulis were struck in the chest and head, suggesting that the gunman intended to kill. Police sources said that the only terrorist group that had committed these kinds of murders in Greece recently was the Sect of Revolutionaries, which claimed responsibility for killing policeman Nektarios Savvas in June 2009 and journalist Sokratis Giolias in July 2010.

The group has not made an appearance since then but officers note that a proclamation signed by the imprisoned members of another urban guerrilla group, Conspiracy of the Cells of Fire, last month called for the formation of a “united front” with other terrorist organizations, including the Sect of Revolutionaries.

Police are also investigating if the shooting could be connected to Nikos Maziotis, a member of another group, Revolutionary Struggle, who is currently on the run from authorities. Last month, police linked Maziotis to an armed bank robbery. The fugitive issued a statement via the Indymedia website denying he was involved.

Officers recovered a motorcycle some 2 kilometers from the shooting and are conducting tests to find out if it was the one used by the attackers. Golden Dawn also said it had provided authorities with a copy of footage from its CCTV cameras, which allegedly captured the attack.

Golden Dawn MP Eleni Zaroulia, the wife of leader Nikos Michaloliakos who was remanded in custody last month on suspicion of heading a criminal organization, blamed Public Order Minister Nikos Dendias for the murders. Zaroulia and two more of the extremist party’s lawmakers handed in their gun licenses and weapons at Pefki police precinct in northern Athens. They said they received a request a few days earlier from the Public Order Ministry to do so.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_02/11/2013_525979

welp no surprises there

[Os Cangaceiros]

I seem to remember the Sect of Revolutionaries murder being almost certainly a false flag. IIRC that was the only act the supposed group committed, and it was the murder of a journalist who was known for exposing organized crime.

[Lily Briscoe]

So I guess liberal humanism is to be left uncritiqued.


I would argue instead that it is being used to describe people who describe themselves as revolutionary but oppose violence as a symptom of revolution for reasons rooted in bourgeois moralism rather than working class politics.
As bizarre as some of the politics on this website can be, I can't imagine anyone actually believes there is a revolution underway in Greece right now. So, since there is quite obviously no revolution to speak of, I doubt anyone here sees this as "violence as a symptom of revolution". I tend to agree with adipocere's comment on the first page that this is more akin to gang violence (that the gangs in question have a flimsy political veneer seems very much beside the point). And I think gross macho behavior/hardman posturing is endemic to this sort of thing and to people who support it, and berating people as "liberals" for failing to see the humor in street executions seems like a pretty clear example of that. (I know, I know: yawn.jpg -- how terribly boring to not derive pleasure from reading about people being killed)

And while maybe one or two of the comments in this thread could arguably be described as 'bourgeois moralism' or 'liberal humanism' (e.g. 'each and every death is a tragedy'), it seems fairly politically innocuous, particularly in comparison to sexually-frustrated weirdos vicariously sating their bloodlust through far-away violence.

[Tim Cornelis]

There is no tragedy in this, and to the day I day I'll claim that anyone who says otherwise is a bleeding-heart liberal.

Of course it's tragic. It's tragic that someone lives a life of hate and dies because of it, how is that anything but tragic?


“We stand for organized terror - this should be frankly admitted." Felix Dzerzhinksy

Any leftist would do well to be called a terrorist by the Bourgeoisie State.

Bourgeois state*

[#FF0000]

On one hand the posturing in this thread is hella lame but on the other, how many people do you think these fascists have done serious harm to in their lives?

[Flying Purple People Eater]

What 'posturing' is going on in this thread? People expressing the fact that they show no remorse for a couple of nazi savages who go around murdering and terrorising migrants (and accuse said migrants of murder and terror, ironically)?

That's not posturing. That's stating a view on a topic. I could say that the majority of the people lauding this as 'tragic' are reprehensible fucking idiots who are posturing as the 'neutral sea' in which far-right boneheads, who belong to an organisation known for the murder, abuse and pressure of migrants, participation in the sex slave industry, the oppression of non-heterosexual people and thick connections to both the police and the previous neo-nazi military junta that destroyed Greeces' communist movement, somehow deserve to be mourned after getting shot.


Tell me, do you shits think a member of the pre third-reich SA, who terrorized jewish neighborhoods and spread racist insanity, should have been mourned if some smart-minded individual ended them with a round of bullets? Didn't think so.

[Tim Cornelis]

What 'posturing' is going on in this thread? People expressing the fact that they show no remorse for a couple of racist savage thugs who go around murdering and terrorising migrants (and accuse said migrants of murder and terror, ironically)?

That's not posturing. That's stating a view on a topic. I could say that the majority of the people lauding this as 'tragic' are reprehensible fucking idiots who are posturing as the 'neutral sea' in which far-right boneheads, who belong to an organisation known for the murder, abuse and pressure of migrants, participation in the sex slave industry, the oppression of non-heterosexual people and thick connections to both the police and the previous neo-nazi military junta that destroyed Greeces' communist movement, somehow deserve to be mourned after getting shot.


Tell me, do you shits think a member of the pre third-reich SA, who terrorized jewish neighborhoods and spread racist insanity, should have been mourned if some smart-minded individual ended them with a round of bullets? Didn't think so.

I don't think you understand what 'tragic' is, or at least not how it's used here in this thread. For instance, with the Boston bombings the younger perpetrator was a seemingly normal guy like you and me, listening to rock and pop, smoking weed, and then his older brother dragged him into a spiral of hatred. If the younger brother had been shot and killed, he would have deserved to be shot and killed, but it would still be tragic that his life had become a spiral of hatred culminating in the death of three innocent people. That's why it's tragic. Deserving to die and it being tragic are not mutually exclusive.

Similarly, the guys shot were not somehow genetically fascist, they were people like you and me, whom had made the awful choice of a life of hatred, and it's tragic that this was all their life was. I don't mourn the death of fascists one bit, but I do consider it tragic they had to die this way.

[bcbm]

i'm generally wary of anyone who celebrates murder with too much glee even when it is a couple of nazis, though i would be lying if i said the headline didn't bring a smirk to my face. i think it is important to examine this critically though because at this point i don't think it serves much purpose to go around blowing away individual nazis in isolation. our war is not a traditional war measured in force of arms and it is more important to build a counterpoint to the nazis in the streets and prevent their provocations rather than simply assassinate them. right now i think it is important to expose the falsehood of the state publicly trying to be 'antifascist,' in 'taking down' this party it has fostered for years, which a hail of lead does with little effect.

[synthesis]

As bizarre as some of the politics on this website can be, I can't imagine anyone actually believes there is a revolution underway in Greece right now. So, since there is quite obviously no revolution to speak of, I doubt anyone here sees this as "violence as a symptom of revolution". I tend to agree with adipocere's comment on the first page that this is more akin to gang violence (that the gangs in question have a flimsy political veneer seems very much beside the point). And I think gross macho behavior/hardman posturing is endemic to this sort of thing and to people who support it, and berating people as "liberals" for failing to see the humor in street executions seems like a pretty clear example of that. (I know, I know: yawn.jpg -- how terribly boring to not derive pleasure from reading about people being killed)

And while maybe one or two of the comments in this thread could arguably be described as 'bourgeois moralism' or 'liberal humanism' (e.g. 'each and every death is a tragedy'), it seems fairly politically innocuous, particularly in comparison to sexually-frustrated weirdos vicariously sating their bloodlust through far-away violence.

What bores me is people who try to shame others into believing that their opinion is morally wrong not because it's counter-productive or because it misses the point but because "no revolutionary should celebrate the death of a human being" and because the way they reacted to a news item is "bullshit macho hardman posturing." After everything that Golden Dawn members have done that outraged and disgusted people here, you can't blame people for engaging in a little schadenfreude - okay, a lot of schadenfreude - because of it. I'm not judging the comments themselves for outright bourgeois moralism - I don't even disagree with the statement that "each and every death is a tragedy." What is bourgeois moralism is attacking people for their reactions to and opinions of an attack on professed reactionaries, not because of any objective effect those reactions and opinions have but because of your desire to push your own morals onto them.

[The Feral Underclass]

Out of interest, on what basis is "every death a tragedy"?

[synthesis]

Out of interest, on what basis is "every death a tragedy"?

The argument could be made that in a perfect world (i.e. equitable distribution of resources, i.e. the closest to a perfect world we can get) these people would have been raised in a better environment and therefore wouldn't have made the life choices that led them to the time and place where they got killed. The tragedy, then, would be that we don't live in a perfect world. I don't think it's an argument for pacifism, just something to keep people grounded in times of violence.

[Delenda Carthago]

Its incredible how stupid you people are. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

With that execution, GD got back in the political game. Now they have martyrs to show.Now they can regroup their people on the street again,after they were completely vanished during the last month. And now, the ideology of equating the Left with the extreme right has something fresh to show. If that is not a State's provocation, I cannot imagine what can be.


Stop acting based on your emotions you fuckin idiots. Start using the brain nature gave you. The fact that they were nazi scums doesnt make their execution by some asshole desperandos a help to our cause.

[adipocere]

Its incredible how stupid you people are. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

With that execution, GD got back in the political game. Now they have martyrs to show.Now they can regroup their people on the street again,after they were completely vanished during the last month. And now, the ideology of equating the Left with the extreme right has something fresh to show. If that is not a State's provocation, I cannot imagine what can be.


Stop acting based on your emotions you fuckin idiots. Start using the brain nature gave you. The fact that they were nazi scums doesnt make their execution by some asshole desperandos a help to our cause.

Sure it does, if you don't think too hard about it. In Vox Populli's defense, she was just "lazy and high and didn't feel like getting into all of that" so I'm not sure what the excuse is for all the other critical thinking going on in this thread. It is too early to know too many details about what happened, but it sure as hell wasn't revolutionary.

The perspective that I have from the US is that this is about the political equivalent to shooting up a Tea Party rally. It's just a resounding win for the State who can use it as an excuse to further crack down on social out-groups and continue to entrench their rule. Already the Greek police are making noises about the killers being from an "anti-establishment far-left group" As you said, it also creates a martyr for GD and paints them as victims.

I think it says a lot about the left that we can be reduced to gravedancing and spittle slinging at the mere mention that members of some amorphous enemy were "punished", regardless of why or by whom or what the ultimate consequences for leftists in Greece will be. And another thing, when Pavlos Fyssas was murdered the Scumfront community wasn't this thrilled. Great Job.

[LiamChe]

Sure it does, if you don't think too hard about it. In Vox Populli's defense, she was just "lazy and high and didn't feel like getting into all of that" so I'm not sure what the excuse is for all the other critical thinking going on in this thread. It is too early to know too many details about what happened, but it sure as hell wasn't revolutionary.

The perspective that I have from the US is that this is about the political equivalent to shooting up a Tea Party rally. It's just a resounding win for the State who can use it as an excuse to further crack down on social out-groups and continue to entrench their rule. Already the Greek police are making noises about the killers being from an "anti-establishment far-left group" As you said, it also creates a martyr for GD and paints them as victims.

I think it says a lot about the left that we can be reduced to gravedancing and spittle slinging at the mere mention that members of some amorphous enemy were "punished", regardless of why or by whom or what the ultimate consequences for leftists in Greece will be. And another thing, when Pavlos Fyssas was murdered the Scumfront community wasn't this thrilled. Great Job.

It seems to me like you feel sorry for GD or is it just the overt liberalism. Leftists in Greece are fully capable of defending themselves from GD. It doesn't matter what the scenario is, the Greek Bourgeoisie will always try to glorify the Fascists. We should welcome this event and hope that more people try to get these murdering Fascist thugs off the streets of Greece.

[Hermes]

The perspective that I have from the US is that this is about the political equivalent to shooting up a Tea Party rally. It's just a resounding win for the State who can use it as an excuse to further crack down on social out-groups and continue to entrench their rule. Already the Greek police are making noises about the killers being from an "anti-establishment far-left group" As you said, it also creates a martyr for GD and paints them as victims.

I think it says a lot about the left that we can be reduced to gravedancing and spittle slinging at the mere mention that members of some amorphous enemy were "punished", regardless of why or by whom or what the ultimate consequences for leftists in Greece will be. And another thing, when Pavlos Fyssas was murdered the Scumfront community wasn't this thrilled. Great Job.

I don't really understand this reasoning, to be honest.

I don't really know that many Tea Party members who go out and kill or harass Greek citizens, or are actually any real threat to large swathes of people. To compare the GD to the Tea Party is to severely downplay the differences between the two groups.

Are you hoping that one day the state won't "crack down on social out-groups and continue to entrench their rule"? It seems pretty unlikely that the state will ever come around to our point of view. Is the characterization of the killers as "anti-establishment far-left" members really that unbelievable? Would you expect anything else of the police, especially in Greece?

I'm not entirely sure where you get the idea that the GD won't always be favored over "far-left anti-establishment groups", especially by the police, and to perhaps a lesser extent, the state. If it weren't for martyrs, it would have been something else. While I'm not going to argue that the killing of these two was particularly productive, I wouldn't really argue that sitting around and waiting for the state or the police to come around to your point of view is, either.

I wouldn't really call the GD "some amorphous enemy". Like the comparison to the Tea Party, it downplays a lot of what the GD is. I don't know whether this was intentional or not on your part. I don't see any good outcomes for leftists in Greece, regardless of whether it's a 'revolutionary situation' or not.

I'm not sure what your point about Scumfront was supposed to be.

To just reiterate some of what I said above, I'm not defending the killings, I just think it's really... odd, especially the reasoning some here use to justify it, to attack the killings themselves.

[synthesis]

And another thing, when Pavlos Fyssas was murdered the Scumfront community wasn't this thrilled.

In our defense, they didn't have something like the murder of Pavlos Fyssas to motivate them.

[Delenda Carthago]

I think it says a lot about the left that we can be reduced to gravedancing and spittle slinging at the mere mention that members of some amorphous enemy were "punished", regardless of why or by whom or what the ultimate consequences for leftists in Greece will be.
+1

[The Feral Underclass]

Political retribution is perfectly justified.

If you revolutionaries were doing your jobs properly and winning arguments there would be no negative backlash from the execution of two Nazis.

The consequences on "leftists" by the state as a result of this is par for the course of struggle against capital, fascism and the state. This is what happens when you confront structures of power and domination. Why are you so surprised? But more importantly, why is confrontation with these structures of power and domination not something you actively seek?

Your response to it is organise and defend yourselves. Instead of whining about people taking matters into their own hands, why don't you better prepare yourself for the confrontations with the state that will come as a result of their repressive measures -- repressive measures that will come irrespective of whether these two Nazis died or not.

[Ravachol]

With that execution, GD got back in the political game. Now they have martyrs to show.Now they can regroup their people on the street again,after they were completely vanished during the last month.


lol, you really think the Greek state's shoddy excuse for a "look at us crack down on the far right menace" posturing was anything but a publicity stunt, railing in its rabid dog for the time being? Do you really for a second believe that GD would have been eliminated if not for this 'desperado act'? That is, aside from the fact that this robs leftists of the statisfaction of claiming the moral high ground of being the perpetual victim, which seems to suit most just fine.


a help to our cause.

You assume there's a common cause between the perpetrators of this act (who could be located outside of the political milieu for all we know, given GD's tight connections to the criminal sphere) and you. Or a common cause between everybody on this forum.

[Sasha]

Can we make this not in another sectarian shit fest, keep it on toppic or I'm going to trash and infract....
Verbal warnings all around.

[Delenda Carthago]

Can we make this not in another sectarian shit fest, keep it on toppic or I'm going to trash and infract....
Verbal warnings all around.
You are right. Sorry on my behalf.

[Sasha]

Comrades, there's nothing that a good friendly handshake can't solve!

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-H27337,_Moskau,_Stalin_und_Ribbentrop_im_Kreml.jpg/img]

Ok, I trashed every sectarian flame, infraction to reb for this one though.

[Delenda Carthago]

My answer to Ravachol was not flame.

[Thirsty Crow]

The question is not whether this is justifiable and justified. I don't intend to engage in morally shaming people who do such things or defend them.

On the other hand, the discussion so far has been almost disastrous in its approach to this, and by that I mean the lack of political perspective.

This seems to result in a dichotomy between the militant anti-fascism of the attacks and the established politics of the forces like KKE. This is a completely false dilemma.

I think, as a matter of fact, that this act might have some nasty consequences:

1) the question of violence and the class - it is clear that this is a minority action, and it is also clear that the initiative needs to be taken away from the faux "anti-fascist" state by the broad layers of the working class and communist militants. This is something that is simply not happening due to this act which is revanchist and isolated from the broader perspective of class struggle.

2) as I said, the political context is that of the state hinting at very similar measures against the left - which includes class militants, not only political organizations. I remember reading somewhere (excuse my lack of reference, but honestly I can't recall where I read it) that state officials have already "discovered" criminal ties in the case of SYRIZA and/or KKE, and announced the possibility of the same criminal charges (criminal conspiracy I think).

And as a "methodological" remark, it is the standpoint of class struggle - only possible as escalating through class unity - that is the stick by which any political action should be measured.

[Sasha]

My answer to Ravachol was not flame.

Sorry, I'm working from my phone here. Feel free to repost/quote from the trash if it was indeed an worthwhile contribution.

[Delenda Carthago]

lol, you really think the Greek state's shoddy excuse for a "look at us crack down on the far right menace" posturing was anything but a publicity stunt, railing in its rabid dog for the time being? Do you really for a second believe that GD would have been eliminated if not for this 'desperado act'? That is, aside from the fact that this robs leftists of the statisfaction of claiming the moral high ground of being the perpetual victim, which seems to suit most just fine.



As I already have stated here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/www.revleft.com/vb/greek-police-arrest-t183575/index.html?t=183575), after the arrests


Yeah, its not like Hitler did a 10 month jail before the authority was given to him.



This is a fuckin dealing between parts of greek Capital. The construction and partly industrial part of it, against the shipping capital that GD was supporting. We have nothing to celebrate about. Only the people's movement can give a full stop to authoritarianism, with swastiga or not.
I am curious how exactly you got the impression that I believe the state's attack on GD was the solution to the fascist problem.

[Ravachol]

As I already have stated here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/www.revleft.com/vb/greek-police-arrest-t183575/index.html?t=183575), after the arrests

I am curious how exactly you got the impression that I believe the state's attack on GD was the solution to the fascist problem.

That seems reasonably fair enough, I don't get where you get the notion that GD 'was on its back until this happened' from then though. I mean, within your own analysis, the State's operation against GD didn't scatter them at all so what are the terrible consequences of this 'desperado act' (for the moment assuming its not internal rivalry or related to the criminal milieu) re.: GD's position apart from leftists not being able to claim the moral highground of being perpetual victims (a position which is only useful if you wish to pressure public opinion into pressuring the state to take action for you anyway)?

I don't think a "people's movement" is capable of stopping the state from turning authoritarian, nor from fascism marching on (http://endnotes.org.uk/articles/9) (even though I don't think GD represent a fascist movement in the same sense fascism operated in the interbellum, they operate more as an auxillary to the Greek state and certain parts of Greek capital) and tbh I think it's nothing more than a rethorical device used by leftists to a) wash their hands off anything that could make them lose the victim narrative b) to say, in other words, 'we need to swell the ranks of the party'. None of these things, in and of themselves, have any power to stop the state from turning increasingly authoritarian, that's pure idealism.

[Delenda Carthago]

That seems reasonably fair enough, I don't get where you get the notion that GD 'was on its back until this happened' from then though. I mean, within your own analysis, the State's operation against GD didn't scatter them at all so what are the terrible consequences of this 'desperado act' (for the moment assuming its not internal rivalry or related to the criminal milieu) re.: GD's position apart from leftists not being able to claim the moral highground of being perpetual victims (a position which is only useful if you wish to pressure public opinion into pressuring the state to take action for you anyway)?

I don't think a "people's movement" is capable of stopping the state from turning authoritarian, nor from fascism marching on (http://endnotes.org.uk/articles/9) (even though I don't think GD represent a fascist movement in the same sense fascism operated in the interbellum, they operate more as an auxillary to the Greek state and certain parts of Greek capital) and tbh I think it's nothing more than a rethorical device used by leftists to a) wash their hands off anything that could make them lose the victim narrative b) to say, in other words, 'we need to swell the ranks of the party'. None of these things, in and of themselves, have any power to stop the state from turning increasingly authoritarian, that's pure idealism.
Because apart from the relationship with the State, for example the repression and such, there is another thing, even more important, called "social dialogue" and this is where the politics play. That is, what society thinks and prefers.

Before that thing happened, not only GD lost some votes(not many though, because the people supporting GD do it exactly because thats the kind of shit they are into), but more importantely GD got isolated by the greek society. They couldnt stand anywhere, they couldnt spread their word,the people that support them were ashamed to be seen in a rally, they were politicaly mutilated. And with the correct moves, for example the tension of the class antifascist and anticapitalist struggle, they would vanish from the face of the Earth. Now, you see people feeling like these two goons where "innocent victims". Like the Left(in general) is just as murderous and blood thirtsy as the nazis, so people that dont like all that crap, will be coiled in the "democratic center".

Now, to you and me, perhaps these two might have been enemies and we dont care about their deaths, OK. But this isnt you and me that we need to convince in order for the revolution to happen. Its the class itself. And in order to do that, we have to stand above the situations and give the example by our stance.

Last but not least, there is the fundamental core problem with individual terrorism. That is, the replay of the Messiah role. Even to people that are class consious. What these type of actions learn the public is that instead of the masses, the working class, to get in the struggle against the nazis, people are learning that all it takes is a group of people that will grab a gun and "punish" those that need to be punished. A Zoro type of social relationship. We need to put an end to this. No social liberation is gonna come through that kind of behaviour.


I m telling you, and everyone else in the movement tells it, no matter the ideology: The only one who was profited by that move, was GD. And of course the State. I m sure that when Michaloliakos found out(if that wasnt his own scheme), he partyed in his cell. I posted EEK-Trotskyists, I posted Anarchist Archive, I can post ANTARSYA, SYRIZA, everyone. Noone was happy about that incindent.

[Ravachol]

Before that thing happened, not only GD lost some votes(not many though, because the people supporting GD do it exactly because thats the kind of shit they are into), but more importantely GD got isolated by the greek society. They couldnt stand anywhere, they couldnt spread their word,the people that support them were ashamed to be seen in a rally, they were politicaly mutilated.


And that somehow changes when two members are gunned down? People rally en-masse to a cause because their adherents are the target of violence? I don't think so.



And with the correct moves, for example the tension of the class antifascist and anticapitalist struggle, they would vanish from the face of the Earth.


Why is that? You say that like it's a fact but there's nothing that indicates GD would vanish simply because they have made themselves unpopular in certain segments of society. Besides, the role GD fullfills can be easily fullfilled by any other nationalist paramilitary with a slight tweaking of rethoric.



Now, you see people feeling like these two goons where "innocent victims". Like the Left(in general) is just as murderous and blood thirtsy as the nazis, so people that dont like all that crap, will be coiled in the "democratic center".


These people, whether you like it or not, are already within the orbit of the 'democratic center'. If what puts them of is acts like these, then how do you think they will respond to a generalized revolutionary situation, with the looting of supermarkets, assaults on police stations and a complete breakdown of conventional social order? I get why you say what you say because it makes sense within your politics, but I don't believe in a politics of huddeling everyone together under the lowest common denominator and cross fingers for 'the rev'.



Now, to you and me, perhaps these two might have been enemies and we dont care about their deaths, OK. But this isnt you and me that we need to convince in order for the revolution to happen. Its the class itself. And in order to do that, we have to stand above the situations and give the example by our stance.


And that's where we differ. I don't believe "the class" (even tho there is no such thing as a monolithic working class subject anymore) can be convinced into supporting the revolution (which is an event that will involve quite some more pandemonium than a desperado shooting) through this typical leftist balancing act of sheperding the flock to the 'right positions'. Its a historical dead end and so I care little for it.



Last but not least, there is the fundamental core problem with individual terrorism. That is, the replay of the Messiah role. Even to people that are class consious. What these type of actions learn the public is that instead of the masses, the working class, to get in the struggle against the nazis, people are learning that all it takes is a group of people that will grab a gun and "punish" those that need to be punished. A Zoro type of social relationship. We need to put an end to this. No social liberation is gonna come through that kind of behaviour.


So what does the action of those masses consist of? What mystical object is that 'mass' (and what is the quantative threshold) that acts without any of the individuals composing the mass taking action? Is a minority of strikers to refrain from initiating a strike because they are, at that point, a minority? If so, most massive wildcat strikes would never have occured in the first place. I'm not even talking about this action in and of itself (which, for all I know, is completely unrelated to the political game) but about the logic that keeps shouting about "the mass", "the people" without ever clarifying that mystification.



I m telling you, and everyone else in the movement tells it, no matter the ideology: The only one who was profited by that move, was GD. And of course the State. I m sure that when Michaloliakos found out(if that wasnt his own scheme), he partyed in his cell. I posted EEK-Trotskyists, I posted Anarchist Archive, I can post ANTARSYA, SYRIZA, everyone. Noone was happy about that incindent.

That's not what i'm talking about tho, i don't buy into this binary "it's either a stupid act or something to applaud" thing. What i'm doubting is the logic of those who see "revolution" as a careful navigating act between scylla and charybdis until they've pushed enough people to the correct ideological point and then, and only then, can 'the revolution' occur.

But if I have to be completely honest, I don't consider most people on this forum my allies, nor do I consider them communists so this debate will probably go back and forth between positions coming from points of departure that are so radically divergent that it'll end up nowhere.

[The Feral Underclass]

Trigger Warning:

There is a video circulating alleging to be of the execution.

(I don't condone the views of the article)

http://www.zougla.gr/greece/article/ntokoumento-frikis

[Tim Cornelis]

Trigger Warning:

There is a video circulating alleging to be of the execution.

(I don't condone the views of the article)

http://www.zougla.gr/greece/article/ntokoumento-frikis

Seems to conform to a description of the attack:


One of the attackers then dismounted the bike and ran towards them, opening fire at a distance of 15m before moving closer.

The police sources added that the shooter was wearing a baseball cap – not a helmet as claimed in initial media reports – and took just seven seconds in which to discharge a total of 13 bullets and fatally wound two of the four people he was firing at.

The sources said that Alexandros Gerontas was hit by one of the first two bullets fired. Although badly injured, Gerontas managed to escape by running away, before collapsing on the ground, which possibly saved his life. He remains in critical condition at Athens general state hospital, where he underwent emergency surgery over the weekend.

A fourth man also escaped by initially running to the right towards the nearby Megalou Konstantinou street. But in a moment of shock, the authorities say, he ran back, passing in front of the attacker, who fired twice at him, missing his target by just 2.5m. This man then managed to slip into the entrance to his party's offices and was not pursued by the shooter.

Instead, the gunman turned on Yiorgos Fountoulis, 27, and Manolis Kapelonis, 22, who were "frozen" on the spot, firing two bullets at each of them.

One of the victims put his hands of his face in an effort to protect himself.

The perpetrator then approached one of the victims, who had collapsed on the pavement, shooting him twice in the head from a distance of a half a metre.

He then returned to his second victim, who had collapsed in a pool of his own blood after being shot in the head while standing up, firing two more rounds into his body.

http://www.enetenglish.gr/?i=news.en.home&id=1584

However, the impression given in this description is that there was more distance between the victims (as this picture also illustrates:

http://www.enetenglish.gr/resources/2013-11/3_grafima-thumb-large-thumb-large.jpg

(same source)

Even if they were deserving of death (which I think is dubious) I would feel so guilty gunning that one "frozen" defenceless guy down.

[Sasha]

wow, thats some cold shit... that guy was completely paralyzed by shock

[Tolstoy]

Normally im absolutely opposed to violence that is unprovoked, even if the people involved are complete scum. However, this was not murder this was an action against a group that has declared war on minorities and leftists throughout Greece and created a hostile situation and have killed numerous people. Let the streets run red with Fascist Blood!

I hope they start doing the same with russian nazis and the Nashi

[RevolucionarBG]

It's great news to hear, but the real problem is that people there (I mean for workers) actually join and support this neo-nazi party!

So celebrating of murderers of workers, even if they support neo-nazism, is something bad for me. The real thing that KKE, or anarchist groups in Greece should do, is to speak to, and explain members of the golden dawn, why it's bad to be their members, and why attacking immigrants and other ethnic minorities won't change anything...

[Alonso Quijano]

Usually I would be against, because it doesn't necessarily help regarding public opinion.

That being sad,
I understand that this is a response for the murder of an anti-racist rapper by neo-Nazi activist.

If so - to quote RATM - "action for reaction". The Golden Dawn are the terrorists in this case, not the victims.

[Delenda Carthago]

Some "anarchomaoists" claimed responsibility. Their communique reminded a lot those of 17November.

[The Feral Underclass]

Some "anarchomaoists" claimed responsibility. Their communique reminded a lot those of 17November.

Do you have a link to it?

[The Feral Underclass]

Apparently they are called the People's Revolutionary Forces.

[Futility Personified]

The Militant People's Revolutionary Forces, according to the groddian. Would like to have a look at the communique if someone can make it available on here?

[Delenda Carthago]

The communique begins with a quote from Durruti and then goes to this weird "left patriotic" rant, they even used a sentence that was exactly the same with a text from a far right blog. That shit stinks of state provocation from day one, now even more.

[The Feral Underclass]

The communique begins with a quote from Durruti and then goes to this weird "left patriotic" rant, they even used a sentence that was exactly the same with a text from a far right blog. That shit stinks of state provocation from day one, now even more.

Do you have a link to the communique?

[EverythingNothing]

Interesting fact that I read today: After the killing of the two members of Golden Dawn,the popularity of the party rose with 2,2 % and now is 8,8% (In June the score was 10.8 %) according to a study published saturday...

[Delenda Carthago]

Do you have a link to the communique?
http://www.real.gr//Files/Articles/Document/276629.pdf

[hatzel]

That shit stinks of state provocation from day one, now even more.

Naaaaah if it was a false flag they'd come up with some laughably bad cliche of a leftoid name...


The Militant People's Revolutionary Forces

...oh...

[Rafiq]

How disappointing it would be if it were a false flag operation, here I was beginning to think the left was becoming militant.

[Orange Juche]

The bloodlust here kind of concerns me. I mean, like others have said, I'm not losing sleep over it - but I don't relish in the idea of people dying. I'd much prefer we had two less fascists because they defected, realizing the absolute insanity of Golden Dawn.

[Yuppie Grinder]

http://www.real.gr//Files/Articles/Document/276629.pdf

This is suspicious but there are some people out there with really out there politics so it's possibly legitimate.

[o well this is ok I guess]

Naaaaah if it was a false flag they'd come up with some laughably bad cliche of a leftoid name...



...oh... This indicates nothing
leftists are perfectly capable of coming up with laughably bad cliche names on their own

[Alonso Quijano]

How disappointing it would be if it were a false flag operation, here I was beginning to think the left was becoming militant.
I don't think the left has to become militant everywhere. The left first needs major support in order for being militant to have some point. We don't want to frighten people to saying communism is right, do we? We want them to truly believe in it.

Violence should always be the undesired solution, one to go for because it's the only possible solution.
When the right is militant and practices terrorism, it's can only be justifiable to murder one back before they terrorise everyone, especially when I am sure they are a political minority, especially in relation to the radical left.

Being militant in France, Italy or Germany can just alienate the people from our cause.

[Alonso Quijano]

http://www.real.gr//Files/Articles/Document/276629.pdf
Can this be translated, please?

You live in Greece and surely know your local political climate better than I do. Could you please try and explain to me, in stages/points, who did/does what, according to your understanding, and who's the one to profit?

Because I'm honestly lost here with what you're saying.

[Logical seal]

HehehehahahahahahahahAHAHAHAH!


most of us leftys been getting soft latetly, About damn time we did somthing about the facist menace.

[Ravachol]

The communique begins with a quote from Durruti and then goes to this weird "left patriotic" rant, they even used a sentence that was exactly the same with a text from a far right blog. That shit stinks of state provocation from day one, now even more.

Not excluding that possibility but is it that weird though? Especially given the pretty virulent left-nationalism within the Greek left eg with, as you you pointed out yourself, groups such as 17N?

All the blabla about "the people this" and "the people that" already pointed toward those more within the orbit of leftist politics (as opposed to nihilist groups or whatever kind of insurrectos), a firm dash of nationalism isn't alien to maoism at all.