Question to all communists

[Y2A]

Do you think America deserved 9/11?

[Bolshevika]

Yes.

[Felicia]

no one derserves tragedy, but when a government such as the US causes so much death and suffering around the world, they deserve a wake up call.

[Intifada]

america got what it deserved, but the innocent people who died didnt.

[The Feral Underclass]

Go back through the archives of OI, you will find this same question somewhere quite close....

[Y2A]

I think I just lost any respect that I had for any of the posters on these boards.

[Pete]

America did not deserve it, no one deserves destruction or war, but it was a reaction to American policy. The two ideas are similar, but different at their core.

[dannie]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 11:15 PM
america got what it deserved, but the innocent people who died didnt.
my exact words

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 10:15 PM
america got what it deserved, but the innocent people who died didnt.
That's so much crap. Many people who worked at the trade centers were involved U.S business and it's economy. The same people you fools would love to see dead. Don't try and act as if now you actually care about americans.

[Bolshevika]

If Americans don't want to have people fight back against them, then maybe they should stop exploiting people? I feel sorry for the innocent people that died, like the undocumented workers and students who were working as waiters in the restaurant, however, every businessmen that died deserved it.

[Felicia]

Originally posted by Y2A+Jan 16 2004, 07:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Y2A @ Jan 16 2004, 07:25 PM)
[email protected] 16 2004, 10:15 PM
america got what it deserved, but the innocent people who died didnt.
That&#39;s so much crap. Many people who worked at the trade centers were involved U.S business and it&#39;s economy. The same people you fools would love to see dead. Don&#39;t try and act as if now you actually care about americans. [/b]
people are poeple, nationalities don&#39;t matter.

your government kills people out of greed and ignorance. What&#39;s so different if americans dies by way of someone else&#39;s ignorance?

it&#39;s all the same thing, the difference is that you only care about american casualties and that puts you at a greater risk of being victims. The US only cares about the US.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 10:29 PM
people are poeple, nationalities don&#39;t matter.

your government kills people out of greed and ignorance. What&#39;s so different if americans dies by way of someone else&#39;s ignorance?

it&#39;s all the same thing, the difference is that you only care about american casualties and that puts you at a greater risk of being victims. The US only cares about the US.
Yes because we all know naturally as an american I was for the war in Iraq <_<

And the difference is that this is a civilian target not a military one. At least if they would have attacked the pentagon, the CIA headquarters, etc... I could understand but attacking WTC is a disgrace and anyone who thinks it was a "good" thing is an idiot.

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 10:33 PM
And the difference is that this is a civilian target not a military one. At least if they would have attacked the pentagon, the CIA headquarters, etc... I could understand but attacking WTC is a disgrace and anyone who thinks it was a "good" thing is an idiot.
If you want to be technical here, neither of those buildings were civillian targets. And the civillians that were in them were just &#39;collatoral damage.&#39; Just like the Afghans who died under indiscriminate bombings. :rolleyes: Your reasoning is so amusingly hypocritical.

[BuyOurEverything]

I guess I&#39;m with ihatebush on this one. Did America deserve it? Ya. Did the innocent people who died dereve it? Absolutely not.


That&#39;s so much crap. Many people who worked at the trade centers were involved U.S business and it&#39;s economy. The same people you fools would love to see dead. Don&#39;t try and act as if now you actually care about americans.

Yes, I&#39;m sure there were a lot of people in those buildings that did deserve to die, but that doesn&#39;t justify the attacks. If I throw a bomb into a crowd, I&#39;m bound to kill some people that deserve it, but that doesn&#39;t make it right.

[monkeydust]

Of course America didn&#39;t deserve 9/11. But it didn&#39;t deserve to receive as much sympathy as it did for the tragedy.

Here in England the country had a minute silence, I don&#39;t mind respecting the dead in such a manner but why should 3,000 Americans get such sympathy when thousands of peple who die in thirld world atrocities receive so little.

Take the recent earthquake in Iran for example, how many died? Around 40,000, did as many people care as they did for 9/11, clearly not.

This leads me to believe that Americans feel they are superior people.

[canikickit]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 10:11 PM
Do you think America deserved 9/11?
Absolutely not.
I don&#39;t think that way at all, I don&#39;t really thin k that anyone "deserves" anything. I have felt quite sad at times thinking of the people killed by those planes.

I do think that the attacks on the world trade centre were, as Malcolm X said "the chickens coming home to roost", or you reap what you sew. This whole argument of jealousy doesn&#39;t float with me. The US is attacked because it interfere&#39;s in other people business. The US has always been selfish, acting in its own interests - manifest destiny and all that.

[Indysocialist]

No, no one deserves that kind of treatment.

Read Cani&#39;s post, that&#39;s basically my thoughts to.

[Ymir]

This whole argument of jealousy doesn&#39;t float with me.

Exactly...because I am jealous of someones new car doesn&#39;t mean I want to suicide bomb him

[Urban Rubble]

Y2A, we aren&#39;t all complete dipshits here, I do not think America deserved 9-11. If that building was filled with Bush and his pals, then maybe, but no, nothing can justify killing 4000 innocent people.


your government kills people out of greed and ignorance. What&#39;s so different if americans dies by way of someone else&#39;s ignorance?

There is no difference Felicia, it is all horrible. Justifying the attacks of 9-11 makes you no better than those pieces of shit in the White House ordering invasions and bombings. I cannot believe you would attempt to justify this.


it&#39;s all the same thing, the difference is that you only care about american casualties and that puts you at a greater risk of being victims. The US only cares about the US.

Are you talking about Y2A specifically or Americans in general ? Either way, I love seeing you generalize this way, it&#39;s fun. Hypocrites amuse me. How do you know he only cares about American casualties ? Do you know this kid ? I have actually heard him say that he didn&#39;t support the Iraqi war, why do you assume that he doesn&#39;t care about anything but American casualties ? Oh, I forgot, all Americans are idiotic heartless scumbags. "My bad".

[Bradyman]

Of course the people who died didn&#39;t deserve that. Y2A you seem to have the impression that we are all ruthless bastards. It&#39;s really just the opposite.

[redstar2000]

Do you think America deserved 9/11?

The terms of the question are too vague to permit a coherent answer.

America? It was three buildings that were specifically attacked, not "America".

Of course as symbolism, it was "America" that was attacked. Does "the symbol" of "America" "deserve" to be attacked? Of course.

Did it "deserve" to be attacked by Islamic fundamentalists? Clearly not...this was a case of a dog biting the hand that fed it for at least two decades. I&#39;m sure there was much "behind the scenes" bitterness at the CIA and other locations..."We made those motherfuckers out of nobodies and they stab us in the back&#33;"

Is it "ok" to attack civilian targets? By American standards, it certainly is...the U.S. has done so repeatedly throughout its history.

For American public figures to react in "shock" and "moral outrage" is utterly hypocritical.

Would communists do that, if they had the opportunity? Probably not...at least not on that scale. From our standpoint, causing massive civilian casualties is counter-productive.

In a period of proletarian insurrection, I could see attacks on police stations and vehicles, attacks on government buildings still held by forces defending the old order, and even summary executions of leading political and business representatives of the hated regime...things that might involve incidental civilian casualties.

Generally speaking, though, massacre makes no sense from a communist (or an anarchist) viewpoint...and therefore, if we have any sense, we won&#39;t do that.

I trust this answers your question.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[kylieII]

No. It was inevitable that something like this would happen, due to how the American government has acted. But the response did not target the American government it targetted the people who had been misrepresented. Neither the US administration nor those who set the attacks up cared about the actual people of the US.
And as has been said anyone who thinks its possible to generalise everyone who was a victim of the attacks, or Americans in general, is a fuckwit who has no proper understanding of how society functions, and only hinders Marxisms influence.

[UnionofSovietSocialistRepublics]

the US deserved it, to bring it down a peg or 2, however those poor unfortunate people in the building did not. Not only that but all the innocent people who lost friends and loved ones in it shouldnt have to put up with it.
The USA got far too much sympathy over it, if it happened in easter europe we would barely have heard of it.
It was poor from our point of view as it will make americans more patriotic and fiercely loyal to their current capitalist system.

[Sabocat]

And the difference is that this is a civilian target not a military one. At least if they would have attacked the pentagon, the CIA headquarters, etc... I could understand but attacking WTC is a disgrace and anyone who thinks it was a "good" thing is an idiot.

Yes, it&#39;s quite reprehensible targeting a civilian target.

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstatete...nHolocaust.html (http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/usgenocide/DresdenHolocaust.html)

http://free.freespeech.org/americanstatete...gyofTerror.html (http://free.freespeech.org/americanstateterrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html)


I wouldn&#39;t say the U&#036; deserved it. Let&#39;s just say it was inevitable.

[Urban Rubble]

I&#39;d say the U.S most definately deserved it, but not those people.

It&#39;s all irrelevant, I wouldn&#39;t support anything these religious fanatics do. If it were a communist that flew that plane, I would say the same, but I would applaud the general idea of attacking the U.S. on the grounds that we are the oppressors.

It doesn&#39;t matter how many pegs Al Qaeda takes the U.S down, it does nothing for our movement. It is religion vs religion.

[YKTMX]

No. But did the people who died in Afghanistahn, or Iraq, or the Sudan deserve it either? Now I know poor, brown people aren&#39;t people in the sense that Americans are "people", they&#39;re just liberation fodder after all.

If "America" reaped EVERYTHING it sowed, it would have been raised the ground decades ago. "Deserving" ain&#39;t got nothin&#39; to do with it.

[Urban Rubble]

No. But did the people who died in Afghanistahn, or Iraq, or the Sudan deserve it either? Now I know poor, brown people aren&#39;t people in the sense that Americans are "people", they&#39;re just liberation fodder after all.

Of course they didn&#39;t, but if you went around killing civilians in response to America killing civilians, we&#39;d have a pretty fucking bleak society, right ? Don&#39;t act as if I justify America&#39;s attrocities, I don&#39;t, I just don&#39;t think the answer is to kill people for working in an American building. Even if they are patriotic asshole Americans, they need education, not death.


If "America" reaped EVERYTHING it sowed, it would have been raised the ground decades ago. "Deserving" ain&#39;t got nothin&#39; to do with it.

Of course it would have, but again, killing innocent people just isn&#39;t very nice :lol:

[Intifada]

No. But did the people who died in Afghanistahn, or Iraq, or the Sudan deserve it either? Now I know poor, brown people aren&#39;t people in the sense that Americans are "people", they&#39;re just liberation fodder after all.

If "America" reaped EVERYTHING it sowed, it would have been raised the ground decades ago. "Deserving" ain&#39;t got nothin&#39; to do with it.

good post. did chile deserve 9/11? did japan deserve nagasaki and hiroshima? the list goes on...

[Osman Ghazi]

Isn&#39;t it eerie how it happened 28 years to the day since the actively American supported coup in Chile took the lives of 3000 people?

[moncadista]

true that osman. when i stand for that dumbass minute of silence, i think of chile. i remember the thousands that died on that day, and the dessenters that were slowly killed of in the months to come, including one of the greatest poets ever, Pablo Neruda. i think it is quite funny that me, being in a canadian school, have to stand and respect the deaths of a bunch of elites from the states.

[Don't Change Your Name]

well, 28 years after that...someone paid the price...

I really think that yankeeland deserved it and in fact it deserves more than that, but im sorry for those who have to die because of their imperialist country.

[Y2A]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 09:57 PM
Now I know poor, brown people aren&#39;t people in the sense that Americans are "people".
I&#39;m brown idiot. Don&#39;t think that you rich white communists are actually standing up for minorities in the U.S. because you aren&#39;t. I&#39;m tired of seeing you rich whites from smalltown U.S.A thinking you are actually doing something it&#39;s really pathetic.

[Hegemonicretribution]

No it wasn&#39;t deserved, yes America are hypocrites, yes I pitty the Americans that can&#39;t understand that as an alien I am not jealous. The saying "all is fair in love and war" well Hiroshima was "necessary" and Nagasaki also..rather than just a big test zone...so I guess hitting America where it hurts...the wallet only makes sense. Come on they have been hitting the bellow the belt for years, homogenous culture is not what is wanted in countries where they have little else.

[Pete]

Originally posted by Y2A+Jan 18 2004, 11:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Y2A @ Jan 18 2004, 11:24 AM)
[email protected] 17 2004, 09:57 PM
Now I know poor, brown people aren&#39;t people in the sense that Americans are "people".
I&#39;m brown idiot. Don&#39;t think that you rich white communists are actually standing up for minorities in the U.S. because you aren&#39;t. I&#39;m tired of seeing you rich whites from smalltown U.S.A thinking you are actually doing something it&#39;s really pathetic. [/b]
Come on don&#39;t fight back against a stereotype with another one. That is hypocritical and counterproductive.

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by Y2A+Jan 18 2004, 04:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Y2A @ Jan 18 2004, 04:24 PM)
[email protected] 17 2004, 09:57 PM
Now I know poor, brown people aren&#39;t people in the sense that Americans are "people".
I&#39;m brown idiot. Don&#39;t think that you rich white communists are actually standing up for minorities in the U.S. because you aren&#39;t. I&#39;m tired of seeing you rich whites from smalltown U.S.A thinking you are actually doing something it&#39;s really pathetic. [/b]
I&#39;m from a single parent family in Glasgow, Scotland.

Sanctimonious asshole.

[redstar2000]

I&#39;m tired of seeing you rich whites from smalltown U.S.A....

I was born and raised in a medium-sized city in the mid-west. My net worth is around &#036;2,500.

But I am "white"...so you got one right.

I do, however, share your fatigue; I am tired of people who can&#39;t outscore one-celled organisms on IQ tests cluttering up this board with their ignorant stereotypes and banal clichés.

Like yourself.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Y2A]

I do, however, share your fatigue; I am tired of people who can&#39;t outscore one-celled organisms on IQ tests cluttering up this board with their ignorant stereotypes and banal clichés.

Oh you mean like communists that think that stereotype capitalists as greedy, racist, heartless people.

Like yourself.

I agree.

:redstar2000:

[Al Creed]

No innocent person ever deserves to day, let me say that.

Now, I have a few questions about September 11th, to ask:

-Do you know what a Kidney Dialysis Machine is? Osama does, because he needs one to live. How is it, that Osama bin Laden can escape your clutches so diligently, if he&#39;s barely alive to begin live?

-Even at that, how is it possible that he was able to personally oversee September 11th, which happened 10 000 miles away, while on Dialysis?

-Why was it known for 20 minutes before those planes slammed into the Towers, that they were hijacked? The acceptable time limit to respond to a highjacking is 10 minues. Why did they not do anything?

-On September 11th, why did Bush, when told about the attacks while reading about Goats, do nothing? "I didn&#39;t want to scare the children&#33;" Would it have been so hard to whisper "Take the plane down"?

-Why did President Bush spend most of the day, hiding? Why did it take him until 8 pm EST to respond to the attacks and address his people, and actually act like a leader?

-Why, in the days immediately following September 11th, were members of the House of Saud, rulers of Saudi Arabia, AND members of the bin Laden Family, allowed to leave the country via private Jet, before they could be investigated by the FBI?

-Why were 28 pages of the Congress-Issued "9/11 Report censored out, that dealt with Saudi Arabia&#39;s role in the attack?

-Do you know how hard it is to hit a 5-story building at 500 miles per hour(The Pentagon)? Where do you learn a skill like this? Playing a Stupid Flight simulator game at a buh-league pilot school, or a Military, professional air force?

That&#39;s all I could think of. I&#39;ll let This (http://www.takebackthemedia.com/true911.html) cover anything I missed.

[bombeverything]

They created the whole situation. By &#39;they&#39; I am referring to the American government, not it&#39;s people. There is a difference. The civilians who died did not deserve it, although the attack was hardly a surprise. It is sad that so many innocents had to die. Still it is always the innocent who get caught up in the power games of politicians and other powerful individuals.

This question is very vague.

[Felicia]

Originally posted by Y2A+Jan 16 2004, 07:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Y2A @ Jan 16 2004, 07:33 PM)
[email protected] 16 2004, 10:29 PM
people are poeple, nationalities don&#39;t matter.

your government kills people out of greed and ignorance. What&#39;s so different if americans dies by way of someone else&#39;s ignorance?

it&#39;s all the same thing, the difference is that you only care about american casualties and that puts you at a greater risk of being victims. The US only cares about the US.
Yes because we all know naturally as an american I was for the war in Iraq <_<

And the difference is that this is a civilian target not a military one. At least if they would have attacked the pentagon, the CIA headquarters, etc... I could understand but attacking WTC is a disgrace and anyone who thinks it was a "good" thing is an idiot. [/b]
They did hit the pentagon. And the WTC is a symbol of capitalism and US imperialism, it&#39;s still a political target.

[Urban Rubble]

They did hit the pentagon. And the WTC is a symbol of capitalism and US imperialism, it&#39;s still a political target.

So you support a symbolic attack by religious fundamentalists that killed 4000 people ? Nice, real compassionate. I knew you hated Americans but I didn&#39;t think even you would be this callous.

[Jesus Christ]

NOBODY deserves a dastardly attack like those of 9/11, you are just stooping to their level.
All those innocent people, its such a shame.

[Germanator]

No violence is excusable, but all violence is explainable. No one in the WTC deserved to be killed, but you would have to be one blind and ignorant fool not to see it coming. It doesn&#39;t matter how many bombs we drop on the Middle East, terrorism will continue as long as America&#39;s foreign policy is aimed at exploitation.

[Pete]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 19 2004, 09:20 PM

They did hit the pentagon. And the WTC is a symbol of capitalism and US imperialism, it&#39;s still a political target.

So you support a symbolic attack by religious fundamentalists that killed 4000 people ? Nice, real compassionate. I knew you hated Americans but I didn&#39;t think even you would be this callous.
You twisted her words. Don&#39;t be a bastard and try to pull flame wars out of thin air UR. Its fucking pointless and you know it.

Learn to read or fuck off.

[Comrade Zeke]

No one Deserves to be attacked and I hope that the people who attacked the trade center burn in Hell but............How many Native Americans have we Americans killed.........how many inocents Jappeness people have we killed Millions&#33;&#33;&#33; In one flash of light I say that Karma has taken its affect and America as a nation deserved it. <_<

[Comrade Ceausescu]

To answer the original question of the subject.....This is one of the few things I don&#39;t have an opnioin on.

[Felicia]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 19 2004, 11:20 PM

They did hit the pentagon. And the WTC is a symbol of capitalism and US imperialism, it&#39;s still a political target.

So you support a symbolic attack by religious fundamentalists that killed 4000 people ? Nice, real compassionate. I knew you hated Americans but I didn&#39;t think even you would be this callous.
of course, you didn&#39;t read what I was responding to did you? You seem to only like getting half the story, the half that you think you can insult me with. Well, let me tell you what it was.... he was saying how the areas hit were civillian targets, I was merely saying that they all had political significance. I&#39;ve already stated up front that no one deserves it, the US government just needed a wake-up call, and unfortunately that&#39;s only caused more harm than good for the rest of the world. Like Pete said, "learn to read or fuck off"

thanks Pete, I appreciate it. :)

[kylieII]

No one Deserves to be attacked


In one flash of light I say that Karma has taken its affect and America as a nation deserved it
America as a nation is a collection of individuals. There was not one large consensus to do any of the actions that you list. In some cases people there weren&#39;t even around when those attacks occured. You&#39;re being hypocritical. The actions of the US military are not affected by the individuals in the US, look at the anti-war demonstrations recent effects to see this. Their actions reflect the wishes of a small group in the US who act mostly based on their own views, and for themselves.
Oh wasn&#39;t it the British who displaced and persecuted the Native Americans the most?

(just realised the middle quote reffered to those who did the attacks, not those in the WTC like i thought)

[Pete]

Oh wasn&#39;t it the British who displaced and persecuted the Native Americans the most?

The Americans, like the Canadians, did more injustice to the native peoples than the British (minus the blatant germ warfare used by the British in the 7 Years War to spread small pox to their enemies and the French&#39;s burnt earth campagain which destroyed the Iroquois, lead by Frontenac, and the destruction of the Huron by the Jesuit preists carrying European diseases) did, mostly for the fact that the British were limited to a smaller territory, and as the Americans pushed their frontiers forward they brought their genocide and slaughter with them. Canada was a bit more subvert in their torture, but the assimilation practice (definitoin of status indian, residential schools, ect) were just as harsh, and destroyed many cultures, replacing them with alcohol and glue.

[cubist]

i am against un necassary loss of life, and 4000 dead is unessacary how ever the reasons behind al qaeda&#39;s actions are fairly just even if i disagree with the actions taken why couldn&#39;t they do it at night time.

were the french the best assasins too Pete?

[Pete]

Assassins? I don&#39;t really know what you are talking about... they fought native style war fare against the British for the most part (until the failed &#39;containment&#39; strategy that led to the downfall of New France). Is that what you mean?

[Hegemonicretribution]

Just out of interest...how many support a violent revolution? I know this has been done many times but it seems kind of appropriate.

[Felicia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 04:04 PM

Oh wasn&#39;t it the British who displaced and persecuted the Native Americans the most?

The Americans, like the Canadians, did more injustice to the native peoples than the British (minus the blatant germ warfare used by the British in the 7 Years War to spread small pox to their enemies and the French&#39;s burnt earth campagain which destroyed the Iroquois, lead by Frontenac, and the destruction of the Huron by the Jesuit preists carrying European diseases) did, mostly for the fact that the British were limited to a smaller territory, and as the Americans pushed their frontiers forward they brought their genocide and slaughter with them. Canada was a bit more subvert in their torture, but the assimilation practice (definitoin of status indian, residential schools, ect) were just as harsh, and destroyed many cultures, replacing them with alcohol and glue.
fuck yeah, my native ancestors kicked major ass though, killing more non-natives than any other tribe in north america.


*smells the air*

sweet revenge for my people came and went, and will come again&#33;

:D :P

[Pete]

Which tribe?

[Felicia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 06:53 PM
Which tribe?
I just told you on MSN :P

[Urban Rubble]

You twisted her words. Don&#39;t be a bastard and try to pull flame wars out of thin air UR. Its fucking pointless and you know it.

I wasn&#39;t trying to pull anything out of thin air. She impied support for the attack (not in that post), I think that is wrong.


Learn to read or fuck off.

Nice, implying that I can&#39;t read. Learn to not make obviously false statements or fuck off.


of course, you didn&#39;t read what I was responding to did you?

Uh, yes, I did.


the half that you think you can insult me with.

I didn&#39;t insult you at all. I said I didn&#39;t think you would be so callous as to not care about the deaths of 4000 people.


Well, let me tell you what it was.... he was saying how the areas hit were civillian targets, I was merely saying that they all had political significance.

I understand this. And by the way, you said yourself it was a symbolic attack. If they hit the Statue of Liberty would that be political as well ?


I&#39;ve already stated up front that no one deserves it, the US government just needed a wake-up call, and unfortunately that&#39;s only caused more harm than good for the rest of the world.

I didn&#39;t say that you said anyone deserved it. What you did was attempt to understate the tradgedy of this event.

[Pete]

No Urban, you obviously cannot read properly, or you would not have come to the conclusion you did. You either ignored some points or words, or you purposely twisted them. Knowing the history between the two of you it is clear that you are trying to make some bullshit reason to reignite them. If not, then I suggest you change your wording.

[Comrade Zeke]

The French and Indian War was a violent war,mainly involving raids across the border......Now I supported the French in that war because they did one thing that the British didn&#39;t do they stayed in their settlements like Montreal and Qubec&#39; and they didn&#39;t expaned into Indian territory and they treated the Native Americans like they were humans.They married Indian woman lived with them loved them. Here is what the British and Americans did gave them more deiseses,took away the lands and treated them likme dogs.So that is why I say Vive La New France&#33; I wish it had one the french and Indian war.
Zeke

[Guest1]

Felicia didn&#39;t say she thinks the attacks were deserved. She said it was symbolic, and the targets were political. She clearly said she doesn&#39;t think the people deserved to die.

Leave her alone.

There were others here who said that, others who said that while no one deserved to die, the chickens came home to roost. There were some who even said they think America has gotten too much sympathy.

I wonder why you don&#39;t attack them so ruthlessly :rolleyes:

[Felicia]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 21 2004, 12:31 AM

You twisted her words. Don&#39;t be a bastard and try to pull flame wars out of thin air UR. Its fucking pointless and you know it.

I wasn&#39;t trying to pull anything out of thin air. She impied support for the attack (not in that post), I think that is wrong.

Oh? You just said that I didn&#39;t support the attack in that post, but yet yoiu went on to critisize that post as if I said I was in support of it. Don&#39;t you make a lot of sense. :blink:

oh, as for the "learn to read" bit, it&#39;s more like "learn to interpret what Felicia&#39;s saying", is that better for you to understand, rubble? That&#39;s one thing that you always seem to fuck up on.


of course, you didn&#39;t read what I was responding to did you?

Uh, yes, I did.
If you did, you would&#39;ve understood what I was talking about



I didn&#39;t insult you at all. I said I didn&#39;t think you would be so callous as to not care about the deaths of 4000 people.
Not care about the deaths&#33;? Where did I say "I don&#39;t care that the american&#39;s died"? Also, why should I care more for the WTC deaths than I do for any other mass killings in other parts of the world? There&#39;s no reason why I should care any more, or any less. And I haven&#39;t give any indication of my opinion being either in this thread.



I understand this. And by the way, you said yourself it was a symbolic attack. If they hit the Statue of Liberty would that be political as well ?
First off, the statue of liberty was not a target, how am I to know in which manner they would see that statue? And what that would represent to them? I&#39;m not muslim nor have I lived in the middle east, and through the hardships they&#39;ve had to face in their lives. I don&#39;t know first hand about their culture and I don&#39;t know what they&#39;ve gone through in their lives to make the "attackers" who they were as people. I don&#39;t know them, nor do I have first hand contact with al queda so it&#39;s not like I can ask bin laden what he would&#39;ve thought about making the statue of liberty a target, and what kind of american symbol it was to him.

The stature of liberty was a peace offering (so to speak) form the french.


I didn&#39;t say that you said anyone deserved it. What you did was attempt to understate the tradgedy of this event.

Than what&#39;s the point of you arguing with me? We both didn&#39;t condoan those actions, so why the fuck are you arguing with me? Thia is really quite petty. Talk about being an instigator.

**** THANKS CHE Y AND PETE :)

[Urban Rubble]

You&#39;re right Felicia, I was being a dick, I&#39;m sorry.

[Felicia]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 21 2004, 01:07 PM
You&#39;re right Felicia, I was being a dick, I&#39;m sorry.
well, I don&#39;t see why you have to apologise to me.

lets just put this behind us :)

[Pete]

Live the peace.

[LuZhiming]

Anyone who reads these and concludes that the September 11th attacks were planned has a completely ludicrous reasoning. The answer on the matter is obvious: The U.S. was aware of the large possibility of attacks like that happening, and they simply didn&#39;t care.


Now, I have a few questions about September 11th, to ask:

-Do you know what a Kidney Dialysis Machine is? Osama does, because he needs one to live. How is it, that Osama bin Laden can escape your clutches so diligently, if he&#39;s barely alive to begin live?

Maybe because he fled soon after the attacks? What did you expect? Did you think Osama would still be sitting at the Tora Bora mountains months later?


-Even at that, how is it possible that he was able to personally oversee September 11th, which happened 10 000 miles away, while on Dialysis?

Anyone who asks this question is probably suffering from their failure not to bother studying Osama bin Laden. Most honest people that know a great deal about Osama bin Laden(Most notably Robert Fisk) say that they don&#39;t believe Osama bin Laden planned the attacks. They say he is the voice, and that his words merely influenced others. That conclusion sounds more realistic to me.


-Why was it known for 20 minutes before those planes slammed into the Towers, that they were hijacked?

Sudan had already given them intelligence that that attack would happen. The U.S. was probably expecting it after that. And shocking as it seems (sarcasm), they noticed.


The acceptable time limit to respond to a highjacking is 10 minues. Why did they not do anything?

They simply didn&#39;t care.


-On September 11th, why did Bush, when told about the attacks while reading about Goats, do nothing? "I didn&#39;t want to scare the children&#33;" Would it have been so hard to whisper "Take the plane down"?

Hmm, I don&#39;t know maybe because he is an ignoramos that relies on his advisors to make decisions? He could have even been a coward.


-Why did President Bush spend most of the day, hiding? Why did it take him until 8 pm EST to respond to the attacks and address his people, and actually act like a leader?

Anyone that pays attention can tell Bush has almost no leadership abilities.


-Why, in the days immediately following September 11th, were members of the House of Saud, rulers of Saudi Arabia, AND members of the bin Laden Family, allowed to leave the country via private Jet, before they could be investigated by the FBI?

That doesn&#39;t prove much. One could blame it on incompetence. One could blame it on the U.S. simply not caring. However, concluding that it is because they planned the attacks is absurd.


-Why were 28 pages of the Congress-Issued "9/11 Report censored out, that dealt with Saudi Arabia&#39;s role in the attack?

Saudi Arabia was a great U.S. ally and collaborator. I don&#39;t understand why this question is even taken seriously. For it to be taken as such, one would have to believe that maybe U.S. leaders might actually care for their people. :lol:


-Do you know how hard it is to hit a 5-story building at 500 miles per hour(The Pentagon)? Where do you learn a skill like this? Playing a Stupid Flight simulator game at a buh-league pilot school, or a Military, professional air force?

A profession air force maybe? It isn&#39;t hard to pick up training somewhere considering the corruption of the militaries all over the world.


It is religion vs religion.

You are very niave if you believe that crap.

[FistFullOfSteel]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 10:11 PM
Do you think America deserved 9/11?
Do you think Chile deserved 9/11?

[mia wallace]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 10:15 PM
america got what it deserved, but the innocent people who died didnt.
i totally agree with this. i&#39;m really sorry for the people who died and their families, but i&#39;m glad that someone showed to americans that they&#39;re not invincible ^_^

[Y2A]

Originally posted by El Medico+Jan 21 2004, 10:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (El Medico @ Jan 21 2004, 10:07 PM)
[email protected] 16 2004, 10:11 PM
Do you think America deserved 9/11?
Do you think Chile deserved 9/11? [/b]
Actually, no.

[Urban Rubble]

Do you think Chile deserved 9/11?

Obviously not. What does that have to do with anything ?

The CIA&#39;s actions in the whole Chile affair were sickening, but don&#39;t act as if it was completely coordinated and planned by the U.S. Have you ever read up on this whole thing ?

The conditions for overthrowing Allende were already there. The election that Allende won was basically tied 3 ways, kind of like Florida in 2000. The Chilean congress eventually declared Allende president, and immediately the opposition began planning his removal. The only reason the miliatary didn&#39;t take him out is because General Schneider didn&#39;t want to piss all over the Chilean constitution. The CIA took care of that by providing the weapons to kill him. They also armed several groups to take Allende out, but none of them were quite succesful, this was 3 years before the coup.

I&#39;m not defending the CIA&#39;s actions, all I&#39;m saying is that it wasn&#39;t a CIA operation, it was already happening, they just made sure it would not fail. I realize this may come of as justifying it, I&#39;m not trying to. I am just as outraged as you about the decade of murder that followed.

[Guest1]

I&#39;ll have to say, it is rediculous to think the US planned it, though it wouldn&#39;t be past them.

They didn&#39;t have to plan it, they just had to sit back, relax and let it happen.

It&#39;s not that they didn&#39;t care, it&#39;s that it&#39;s exactly the pearl harbour they needed. They definitely didn&#39;t organize it, but they very likely let it happen and grounded their fighters to ensure it would get through.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

My post will probably seem quite outdated to this discussion, since I only read the first page.
So in reponse to the capitalists who do not accept our codolences to the people who tragicaly died, while we still enjoy the fact that America was wounded by this:
Most of you support the bombing of Hiroshima and nagasaki in WWII that killed tens of thousands of civilians, yes? I know that most Americans do. So why can&#39;t we support this? We obviously don&#39;t like the fact that many died and we wish they never had. We regret the fact that this even happened, but we undestand why they would do this and we agree with their struggle against imperialism, even though we may not have dealt with it like this. They did this out of spite for American imeprialism which has unfairly come into their lands and claimed their resources and labour as a capitalists&#39; comodity. They did it out of spite for the American culture which breeds and caters to corporate America, whose interests are imposed upon them at the expense of these poor people. Certainly you don&#39;t support the killing of thousands of japanese civilians in WWII, but you underatnd America&#39;s struggle and believe it had to be done. We don&#39;t necessarily believe that 9/11 had to be done, but we sympathise with their struggle against American imperialism.

[Guest1]

Hiroshima did not have to be done.

Sorry, I don&#39;t believe that.

If they actually had to use nukes, they could have nuked off the shores of tokyo, into the water, detonating it just before it reaches the water. The explosion would have been viewable from tokyo, and along with the tidal waves would have scared the fuck out of japan.

[LSD]

Most of you support the bombing of Hiroshima and nagasaki in WWII that killed tens of thousands of civilians, yes? I know that most Americans do.

That is quite a sickening comment.

Not only, as CyM pointed out, did they not have to kil hundreds of thousands, but recent documents show that Japan had offered to surrender prior to the bombinb. Theire sole request was that they be allowed to keep the emporer, which the US allowed in the end&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

Nuking Hiroshima/Nagasaki was nothing more than an attempt to scare Stalin (which it didn&#39;t because his spies had already imformed him about the bomb test)

[Guest1]

I didn&#39;t know that, but even if that had not been the case, hundreds of thousands of deaths are never justifiable. There is always another option when it comes to nuclear weaponry.

Anyways, for the same reason, I also find the following comment disgusting:


So in reponse to the capitalists who do not accept our codolences to the people who tragicaly died, while we still enjoy the fact that America was wounded by this

Please don&#39;t say we, Urban Rubble knows I am no friend of america, but I teared up on September 11th. Those people did not deserve to die, and no nation, no matter how disagreeable its leaders, deserves a Hiroshima, a WTC attack, or anything of the sort.

We are here to liberate people from the criminals that rule over them, not to relish the moment when they suffer because of the crimes of their masters. Who, by the way, are rewarded by actions like this.

The human capacity to cause suffering, over and over again, in an endless orgy of bloodshed, will not end through more bloodshed.

My capacity to believe this madness will someday end, on the other hand, is winding down because of more bloodshed.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I hope you guys don&#39;t think that I support the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If you think I do, did you even read my last post? :unsure:

I used it as an example of how Americans accept the killing of thousands of civilians as long as there is a reason.

[Guest1]

Sorry, I seem to be turning ultra-sensitive these days. It&#39;s a wicked world that we live in, and it makes me very snappy.

This is the second apology I&#39;ve written today :P That&#39;s how bad this past week or two has been.

[LSD]

Most of you support the bombing of Hiroshima and nagasaki in WWII that killed tens of thousands of civilians, yes?

Certainly you don&#39;t support the killing of thousands of japanese civilians in WWII, but you underatnd America&#39;s struggle and believe it had to be done.

These two comments certainly seem to imply that you support America&#39;s actions, you definetly assume that most people here do.

[synthesis]

Well, which do you think is going to appeal more to a capitalist willing to hear the opposite side of the story?


Certainly you don&#39;t support the killing of thousands of japanese civilians in WWII, but you underatnd America&#39;s struggle and believe it had to be done

Or:


You douche-bags support Hiroshima, 9/11 was your motherfucking karmic jurisdiction

Sometimes you want to convert, sometimes you want to debate. When you are trying to convert, it is wise to lessen your tone.

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 22 2004, 02:33 AM

Do you think Chile deserved 9/11?

Obviously not. What does that have to do with anything ?

The CIA&#39;s actions in the whole Chile affair were sickening, but don&#39;t act as if it was completely coordinated and planned by the U.S. Have you ever read up on this whole thing ?

The conditions for overthrowing Allende were already there. The election that Allende won was basically tied 3 ways, kind of like Florida in 2000. The Chilean congress eventually declared Allende president, and immediately the opposition began planning his removal. The only reason the miliatary didn&#39;t take him out is because General Schneider didn&#39;t want to piss all over the Chilean constitution. The CIA took care of that by providing the weapons to kill him. They also armed several groups to take Allende out, but none of them were quite succesful, this was 3 years before the coup.

I&#39;m not defending the CIA&#39;s actions, all I&#39;m saying is that it wasn&#39;t a CIA operation, it was already happening, they just made sure it would not fail. I realize this may come of as justifying it, I&#39;m not trying to. I am just as outraged as you about the decade of murder that followed.
You are missing some significant details. Mainly the fact that the CIA had intervened in both of Allende&#39;s elections to keep him from winning. :rolleyes:

[Osman Ghazi]

Most people don&#39;t realize that 9/11 was nothing. 12,000 Americans get murdered every year by other Americans. In comparison 3000 doesn&#39;t seem to be that staggering. Also, i dont seem to recall any War on Murder . . .

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by Lysergic Acid [email protected] 21 2004, 11:10 PM
These two comments certainly seem to imply that you support America&#39;s actions, you definetly assume that most people here do.
When I say most of you, I&#39;m referring to most capitalists.

And I don&#39;t support the bombing.

[Dirty Commie]

Did america deserve a wake up call?, definatly, did three thousand people need to die in the process, no.

But for how much shock americas civilian population showed, it was amazing, knowing that the usa supported Osama in the soviet-afghan war and know supported a regime in Saudi Arabia that he clearly despises, shows a clear sign of bad foreign policy, and a lack of planning after the Taliban took over.

[AC-Socialist]

Its all relative isnt it? I mean we all know the US has never been at all pragmatic about there foregen policy which is as far from prudency as humanly possible. They seem to jump and destroy issues ASAP every time which we should be glad of as it shows them as weak and short-sighted.

[commieboy]

no one deserved somthing like that...and to hell with all of you who disagree&#33;

Fuck the business men...what about the firefighters that died trying to save lives?

You guys are just fuckin&#39; internet tough guys and would never have the balls to talk to survivors or any New Yorker like that.....you guys fucking have a 747 fly into a building filled with innocent people in your area and see how it feels...

so in other words....go fuck yourself....you dont know what you&#39;re talking about

[Urban Rubble]

You are missing some significant details. Mainly the fact that the CIA had intervened in both of Allende&#39;s elections to keep him from winning.

No I am not missing any details. I know all about the election subversion, I didn&#39;t feel I needed to write a 10 page essay containing every detail.

My intent was not to understate the CIA role, my intent was to show that it was not soley a CIA operation. The conditions were already there for Allende&#39;s ouster, it was already happening. The CIA noticed this and took actions to make sure it did not fail.

Horrible, sickening, and totally wrong ? Of course. Was it soley the CIA/U.S&#39;s plan ? No, anyone who says that has not studied it at all.

[Urban Rubble]

One last thing


Most people don&#39;t realize that 9/11 was nothing. 12,000 Americans get murdered every year by other Americans. In comparison 3000 doesn&#39;t seem to be that staggering. Also, i dont seem to recall any War on Murder . .

There is a bit of a difference between 12,000 deaths spanning an entire year and 3,000 deaths spanning a half an hour. Am I wrong ?

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 23 2004, 03:42 AM
Am I wrong ?
Yes you are. If there had been more September 11ths, your point may have merit. But there was only one, thus the crime is more devastating. Not that I necessarily agree with that users point....

[Guest1]

The point is it&#39;s all at the same time.

It&#39;s a shock, whereas continuous murder can&#39;t be.

Don&#39;t try to belittle the events, why reduce the lives of those lost to a statistic? That is America&#39;s strategy, not ours. We should be here to make sure that those lives weren&#39;t taken for nothing. We are here to trumpet the cause of those victims on Sept. 11th and make sure it never happens again, to any nation. We are the ones who will ask the question "why did thousands of innocents have to die?". We are the ones out to end humanity&#39;s continuous bloodlust. Greed, war, tyranny, inequality, racism, these are all factors that led to 9/11, and it doesn&#39;t serve our fight against them to belittle this tragedy.

How can you hope to build a society based upon respect for human life, if you don&#39;t practice it yourself?

[mia wallace]

you really think that just 3000 people died in wtc on 9/11? i know tgat&#39;s not a small number, but there was 10 000 people in there, and if you&#39;re saying that 7000 of them survived... i find that a little hard to believe. <_<
don&#39;t get me wrong, i don&#39;t want people to die and i would like that didn&#39;t happen at all, but...

[Vladimir I. Kropotkin]

Do you think America deserved 9/11?

Yes and No.

Yes, the US govt and even perhaps US society as a whole needed a wake up call..

Do i endorse terrorism in this form? no

Did the people in the towers deserve to die? no

I have to also say that i 100% understand the reasoning and justification for the attack, i understand but will never say that im glad those 3000 people died, i would have been much happier if the buildings could have been destroyed without a single death, impossible, but the act would have still had the same meaning, to me anyway, and would have meant no one had to die so horribly.

edit:

I also think that americans need to realise that hundreds and thousands of people have died in the last century in acts of terror, many of which were at the hands of the US army, and many at the hands of US Dollar militias. This is what i mean when i say that reasoning and justification, i think EVERYONE needs to put the attack in historical context, without condoning it. I certainly dont condone the murder of US foreign policy, neither should US citizens.

[Looter]

September 11 showed that Imperialism is a paper tiger. You poor Americans can dish it out, but you sure cant take, it will take take many more 9/11 to make the World safe, but you&#39;ve had fair warning, you have only yourselves to blame if you dont change your evil ways, because you are so soft and weak and cowardly and useless, its quite funnny. You, who are only capable of thinking of yourselves, why should the World care one whit about you?

[Osman Ghazi]

Originally posted by [email protected] 23 2004, 02:04 PM
September 11 showed that Imperialism is a paper tiger. You poor Americans can dish it out, but you sure cant take, it will take take many more 9/11 to make the World safe, but you&#39;ve had fair warning, you have only yourselves to blame if you dont change your evil ways, because you are so soft and weak and cowardly and useless, its quite funnny. You, who are only capable of thinking of yourselves, why should the World care one whit about you?
True that. 3000 bodies is nothing compared to the millions the Americans have slaughtered.

As for the innocence of the people in those towers, well, ignorance of the law is no defence so why would ignorance of your country&#39;s foreign policy be one.

A child who does not think about what happens around him and is content with living without wondering whether he lives honestly is like a man who lives from a scoundrel&#39;s work and is on the road to being a scoundrel. - Jose Marti

[Guest1]

Ok, let&#39;s get a moderator in here and close this thread before anyone gets anymore idiotic and gets themselves banned.

No one deserves to die, don&#39;t reduce those who died to statistics.

[Felicia]

*lock*

EDIT : It was requested that this thread be reopened.

[Felicia]

WELL?

MAKE A POST YOU WHINNY ASSES&#33;

YOU GOT YOUR THREAD BACK&#33;

[Urban Rubble]

WELL?

MAKE A POST YOU WHINNY ASSES&#33;

YOU GOT YOUR THREAD BACK&#33;

Damn Felicia, I was at work, sorry, here is my post.


September 11 showed that Imperialism is a paper tiger. You poor Americans can dish it out, but you sure cant take, it will take take many more 9/11 to make the World safe, but you&#39;ve had fair warning, you have only yourselves to blame if you dont change your evil ways, because you are so soft and weak and cowardly and useless, its quite funnny. You, who are only capable of thinking of yourselves, why should the World care one whit about you?

Who in the fuck are you even talking to ? The government ? Americans in general ? You&#39;re an idiot kid, I don&#39;t even know what else to say. This comment can&#39;t be refuted because it is completely idiotic. Killing innocent people that have nothing to do with our foreign policy isn&#39;t going to accomplish anything, except make people feel sorry for the U.S and therefore support them even more. 9-11 only made those assholes in the Whitehouse stronger. I repeat, you&#39;re a complete fool.

Oh, and "paper tiger" ? Why don&#39;t you put down your copy of the Little Red Book and come up with your own terms.


you really think that just 3000 people died in wtc on 9/11? i know tgat&#39;s not a small number, but there was 10 000 people in there, and if you&#39;re saying that 7000 of them survived... i find that a little hard to believe.
don&#39;t get me wrong, i don&#39;t want people to die and i would like that didn&#39;t happen at all, but...

Uhhhh, there was millions of people in Iraq when the U.S bombed it, and they aren&#39;t all dead. Most of them though. :lol:

Why make a statement that is obviously false ? The death toll of 9-11 was somewhere around 4000. Just because there were 10,000 people in there doesn&#39;t mean they all died. There was quite a period of time before the plane hit and the building collapsed.


As for the innocence of the people in those towers, well, ignorance of the law is no defence so why would ignorance of your country&#39;s foreign policy be one.

I honestly didn&#39;t think that people were this stupid.

Assuming every person in that building was ignorant of U.S foreign policy, what does that have to do with anything ? Sure, that is very wrong that they ignore the U.S&#39;s crimes, but does that mean they deserve to die ? Do you realize that the U.S government is the worlds largest propaganda machine ? Do you honestly believe that ignorance (due to propaganda) is deserving of death ?

Also, even if they were fully versed on U.S policy, do you believe that makes them psycic ? How were they supposed to know that an attack would occur in that exact location on that exact day ? So all the people that know of the U.S&#39;s horrible foreign policy are expected to know exactly when and where terrorists will strike ? Do you realize the idiocy of the statement you just made ?

Here&#39;s a story. My aunt&#39;s best friend&#39;s son was a really great guy. He wasn&#39;t a Socialist, but he was completely opposed to the U.S government. He read Chomsky and Zinn, attended protests. He was very aware of the U.S government&#39;s attrocities. That day he went into work at the Trade Center and was killed when the building collapsed. Are you actually trying to tell me that he should&#39;ve known that those terrorists were planning an attack ? Ignorance of U.S policy has nothing to do with it you fucking callous fool.

[Looter]

"U.S. imperialism invaded China&#39;s territory of Taiwan and has occupied it for the past nine years. A short while ago it sent its armed forces to invade and occupy Lebanon. The United States has set up hundreds of military bases in many countries all over the world. China&#39;s territory of Taiwan, Lebanon and all military bases of the United States on foreign soil are so many nooses round the neck of U.S. imperialism. The nooses have been fashioned by the Americans themselves and by nobody else, and it is they themselves who have put these nooses round their own necks, handing the ends of the ropes to the Chinese people, the peoples of the Arab countries and all the peoples of the world who love peace and oppose aggression. The longer the U.S. aggressors remain in those places, the tighter the nooses round their necks will become." Mao Ze Dong

[Felicia]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 23 2004, 10:28 PM

WELL?

MAKE A POST YOU WHINNY ASSES&#33;

YOU GOT YOUR THREAD BACK&#33;

Damn Felicia, I was at work, sorry, here is my post.

Sorry, I&#39;ve got a temper :D

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 01:37 PM
"U.S. imperialism invaded China&#39;s territory of Taiwan and has occupied it for the past nine years. A short while ago it sent its armed forces to invade and occupy Lebanon. The United States has set up hundreds of military bases in many countries all over the world. China&#39;s territory of Taiwan, Lebanon and all military bases of the United States on foreign soil are so many nooses round the neck of U.S. imperialism. The nooses have been fashioned by the Americans themselves and by nobody else, and it is they themselves who have put these nooses round their own necks, handing the ends of the ropes to the Chinese people, the peoples of the Arab countries and all the peoples of the world who love peace and oppose aggression. The longer the U.S. aggressors remain in those places, the tighter the nooses round their necks will become." Mao Ze Dong
:lol: Mao is right to criticize the U.S.&#39; actions in Taiwan. The dictator they supported was very brutal. But that&#39;s very imperialistic of him to claim Taiwan is China&#39;s territory. :rolleyes:

[Intifada]

Sorry, I&#39;ve got a temper

if you piss her off enough she&#39;ll throw you down the stairs&#33;

[Osman Ghazi]

Assuming every person in that building was ignorant of U.S foreign policy, what does that have to do with anything ? Sure, that is very wrong that they ignore the U.S&#39;s crimes, but does that mean they deserve to die ? Do you realize that the U.S government is the worlds largest propaganda machine ? Do you honestly believe that ignorance (due to propaganda) is deserving of death ?

I&#39;m not quite sure what you are trying to say here. All I said is that people were saying that the people in those towers who died were innocent. I say that commiting a crime without knowing it is still commiting a crime. (Ignorance of the law is no defence) Therefore, anyone who through ignorance gives support or aquesence (sp?) to unjust actions is an accomplice to those actions and deserves to be punished accordingly.

[Felicia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 24 2004, 03:17 PM

Sorry, I&#39;ve got a temper

if you piss her off enough she&#39;ll throw you down the stairs&#33;
wouldn&#39;t be the first time.....

[dopediana]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 24 2004, 01:28 AM
Here&#39;s a story. My aunt&#39;s best friend&#39;s son was a really great guy. He wasn&#39;t a Socialist, but he was completely opposed to the U.S government. He read Chomsky and Zinn, attended protests. He was very aware of the U.S government&#39;s attrocities. That day he went into work at the Trade Center and was killed when the building collapsed. Are you actually trying to tell me that he should&#39;ve known that those terrorists were planning an attack ? Ignorance of U.S policy has nothing to do with it you fucking callous fool.
there are some people who can remain cold to the facts of 9/11 but have some sort of perverse justification, such as having family or friends killed by the US. then there are those who remain cold because they figure that two wrongs do make a right. then there are those who sympathize, and there&#39;s no one single reason for that. thousands died, bush ignored terrorists up till then and allowed it to happen, a family member or friend died in the WTC, they&#39;d maybe visited there once, or just out of plain and simple human compassion which is as it should be. what i lament is why that same compassion can&#39;t be applied to anything else and all has to be focused on 9/11. i was at school in the morning in brazil when i found out about it from this girl from the US embassy who i really disliked because she was an arrogant and pretentious *****. "some planes hit the pentagon and the world trade center" she told me. i was like "who did it?" "they don&#39;t know"

at first i thought "touche" but then i realized that was so sick and disgusting of myself. i had no notion of politics until after 9/11 and then i started reading about it, both sides&#39; cases for what they did and that&#39;s how i went left. i think the US had just pushed the world too far and an attack of this sort was inevitable.

[Ahura Mazda]

I am not a communist, but I am compelled to respond to the question anyways.

This may surprise some people on the U-P boards, but I actually think that 9-11 was brought upon us by our government and its willingness to interfere in things that we had no business interfering with. Doesn&#39;t mean I like it (well, duh...I am American and a capitalist), but the reasons for such horrible actions do not have to be liked to be true. Sure, jealosy of our position of power in the world may have been part of it, and I will say that I doubt that that didn&#39;t play a part in the action, but honestly it mostly had to do with this ridiculous "pragmatic imperialism" that I believe our government DOES practice and has practiced in the past.

[Osman Ghazi]

Yes well, we all know that it was brought on by American foriegn policy. That is a fact. The question is whether or not they deserved it. Personnally i think so. And i think the millions the Americans killed would agree with me.

[Urban Rubble]

I&#39;m not quite sure what you are trying to say here. All I said is that people were saying that the people in those towers who died were innocent. I say that commiting a crime without knowing it is still commiting a crime. (Ignorance of the law is no defence) Therefore, anyone who through ignorance gives support or aquesence (sp?) to unjust actions is an accomplice to those actions and deserves to be punished accordingly.

What crime ? What crime were they committing ? Working their jobs ? I guess they were supporting the U.S economy by working there, but damn, I help the economy by working in America, do I deserve to die ?

You are inable to distinguish between a government and it&#39;s citizens. Did the U.S government deserve to be attacked ? Of course. Did the people in the towers deserve to die ? Of course not, only a fool would believe that. What the U.S has done to other nations has nothing to do with them.

[Solace]

A government is not innocent because it&#39;s murdered citizens were so. The same way, most citizens are not be guilty of the government&#39;s crime.

[Osman Ghazi]

Really? They didn&#39;t vote for the governments that commited these crimes?

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing" (paraphrase)
(Burke?)

So by doing nothing, they are as responsible for the crimes committed as the U&#036; government is. However, that is just my opinion. I have no problem whatsoever if that isn&#39;t what you believe.

PS: Also, id appreciate it if you didn&#39;t tell me what im capable or incapable of doing.

[Solace]

Really? They didn&#39;t vote for the governments that commited these crimes?

Meh. No. I&#39;m not too much for the elections first off, it&#39;s all the same shit. You are choosing among capitalist parties. I don&#39;t know for you, but I think that the state hardly represent the people and their ideas.


So by doing nothing, they are as responsible for the crimes committed as the U&#036; government is. However, that is just my opinion. I have no problem whatsoever if that isn&#39;t what you believe

I understand what you mean. But I still don&#39;t agree. I would say they are responsible is they know what is going on without giving two shits about it or even if they encourage it. Besides, the state is such a powerful device. The actions of regular citizens rarely give concrete and positive results. And if it&#39;s related to foreigh relationships, they is nearly impossible to change a government&#39;s mind. Just look at the thousands of people who protested against the war in Iraq around the world. Bush or Blair didn&#39;t bat an eyelid.


PS: Also, id appreciate it if you didn&#39;t tell me what im capable or incapable of doing.

I was not going to do so. Turning arguments and debates on a more personal thing is quite lame. Not to mention that&#39;s what people do when they are out of good points. :P

[Urban Rubble]

Really? They didn&#39;t vote for the governments that commited these crimes?

Ummm, I don&#39;t know, do you ? Stop making assumptions, perhaps some of the people didn&#39;t support the U.S government.

At any rate, voting and trying to choose who you think would do the best job is hardly deserving of death, is it ? You&#39;re saying they should be killed because they support the American way of life ?


So by doing nothing, they are as responsible for the crimes committed as the U&#036; government is. However, that is just my opinion. I have no problem whatsoever if that isn&#39;t what you believe.

So when an attrocity is committed and I don&#39;t do anything about it, I deserve to die ?

[Osman Ghazi]

Mostly the statement that i am relating this back to is this: &#39;Ignorance of the law is no defence&#39;
To me, ignorance of the American foreign policy is also no defence. I think that when you are a silent accomplice to the crimes that are committed, you too should be punished.

[Urban Rubble]

I think that when you are a silent accomplice to the crimes that are committed, you too should be punished.

So everyone in Nazi Germany deserved death ? All the people who suffered under Stalin&#39;s Soviet Union deserve to die ?

Being ignorant of American foreign policy is very easy to do when you live here. You are bombarded with propaganda everyday. You are raised to believe your country is the greatest of all time and that they only want to promote peace. People do not deserve death because they have failed to break through and see those views for the bullshit that they are.