American Stupidity, Idiocy, and Ignorance

[Zealot]

Before I get accused of racism or whatnot please hear me out.

From what I've seen on television and from personal experiences it appears that a large majority of Americans are stupid, ignorant, and/or arrogant. I'm aware that many other countries around the world have a similar view of Americans but I had previously assumed that American ignorance and stupidity was confined to the uneducated, conservative or lower-classes of American society. But having heard similar idiocy from college-educated Americans I've been forced to reconsider my assumptions. Some of them were even critical of American patriotism and exceptionalism but were still very stupid and/or ignorant when it came to specific social and political issues. Even when attempting to correct this ignorance in the nicest possible way, and attempting to explain why "issues" in their country are simply puzzling to the rest of the world (such as gun control or healthcare), it's as if they have some mechanism that automatically switches off the brain and all auditory processing. This is extremely frustrating and merely confirms my suspicions about why Stockholm Syndrome is so rampant among the American working class. I have heard from one American that politics is a compulsory class from 7th grade and that mathematics is compulsory even up to college. This isn't even the case in my own country. This just leaves me absolutely perplexed at why Americans seem so stupid, ignorant and politically illiterate. As an outsider, this clearly appears to be the work of carefully crafted bourgeois propaganda and brainwashing on a level that would be inconceivable in my own country.

I would like to hear from American Revlefters particularly. Is this ignorance and stupidity as widespread as I am led to believe? Is propaganda and brainwashing very obvious in the education system (examples/personal experiences if possible)? Or have I simply had unlucky encounters?

[Red Flag Waver]

We Americans are a business-oriented people who look askance at unnecessary education. We're not stupid, but we do have a proud tradition of anti-intellectualism. I always hear alarmist reports about Americans who can't find the United States on a map, or who think that our war of independence was waged against China, but I've never personally met anyone that ignorant.

[Comrade Samuel]

Every country has idiots, the only thing that sets America apart is that our media likes to parade ours around like circus animals.

It's not so much that Americans are dumber than most of the world but rather our upper-class has just sort of developed a Paris Hilton mentality. I personally know some truly enlightened Americans, there are certanly fewer of them than I'd like but rest assured there are some out there.

Please just don't buy into stereotypes- it's unbecoming of a revolutionary leftist to make such general statements about any nationality.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

This thread reminded me of this:

DJ3RrqBqk14

[Zealot]

Every country has idiots, the only thing that sets America apart is that our media likes to parade ours around like circus animals.

It's not so much that Americans are dumber than most of the world but rather our upper-class has just sort of developed a Paris Hilton mentality. I personally know some truly enlightened Americans, there are certanly fewer of them than I'd like but rest assured there are some out there.

Please just don't buy into stereotypes- it's unbecoming of a revolutionary leftist to make such general statements about any nationality.

No I'm well aware not all Americans are like this which is why I've made this thread so I can get an idea of the extent of this problem. I realise that this might be overhyped by the media but as I said this is also based on personal encounters I've had with Americans and anecdotes I've heard from others. What really puzzled me were claims of a rigorous education curriculum in American schools, which made me wonder why I meet and hear of Americans overwhelmed by ignorance. But it's not just that I think they're "dumb". For instance, school shootings seem a very weird phenomenon to me and pretty much everyone in this country because they never happen. In America it seems to have become some sort of recreational activity that they probably think is also rampant in other countries and a necessary evil for constitutional freedoms to bear arms. Apparently if gun control laws are implemented American citizens will become "controlled" by the government (:lol: as if that hasn't already happened). To point out another example, American presidents speak openly about their faith and what missions they think God has ordered them on. Now as an American this might seem normal to you even if you disagree with it, but if our Prime Minister said anything remotely resembling that he/she would be laughed out of the room probably even by most religious people. Americans aren't just dumb, they have a completely different Weltanschauung that the rest of the world finds hard to comprehend. Now this is understandable but it really amazes me how serious this problem seems to be and how difficult it would be to ever change it.

[synthesis]

I find it amusing that you label Americans as "stupid" and "ignorant" while being a Marxist-Leninist in an industrialized country.

That is all.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

No I'm well aware not all Americans are like this which is why I've made this thread so I can get an idea of the extent of this problem. I realise that this might be overhyped by the media but as I said this is also based on personal encounters I've had with Americans and anecdotes I've heard from others. What really puzzled me were claims of a rigorous education curriculum in American schools, which made me wonder why I meet and hear of Americans overwhelmed by ignorance. But it's not just that I think they're "dumb". For instance, school shootings seem a very weird phenomenon to me and pretty much everyone in this country because they never happen. In America it seems to have become some sort of recreational activity that they probably think is also rampant in other countries and a necessary evil for constitutional freedoms to bear arms. Apparently if gun control laws are implemented American citizens will become "controlled" by the government (:lol: as if that hasn't already happened). To point out another example, American presidents speak openly about their faith and what missions they think God has ordered them on. Now as an American this might seem normal to you even if you disagree with it, but if our Prime Minister said anything remotely resembling that he/she would be laughed out of the room probably even by most religious people. Americans aren't just dumb, they have a completely different Weltanschauung that the rest of the world finds hard to comprehend. Now this is understandable but it really amazes me how serious this problem seems to be and how difficult it would be to ever change it.

The overzealous nationalism in America is actually quite terrifying to me. The idea of schools making children make a 'pledge of allegiance to the country' is absolutely fucking bonkers in the first place. It's almost like children are force-indoctrinated from a young age into a very non-critical and nationalist sentiment, which leads to ridiculously chauvinistic depictions of the world (e.g. 'we don't care about indigenous American history because it isn't important!' or 'I've never heard of your country, so why should I know about it?'), and an enormous lack of critical thinking with regards to politics. For an example, a poll stated that around 60% of Americans still believed that Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the 9/11 attack, something which has been proven completely and utterly false. Another is the video I linked above: look at the god-damn 'reasoning' those Texans use to justify invading a country they've never even bloody heard of?

[Zealot]

I find it amusing that you label Americans as "stupid" and "ignorant" while being a Marxist-Leninist in an industrialized country.

That is all.

Are you trolling or have I hurt your feelings? How is my tendency in any way relevant to the points I've made in this thread?


The overzealous nationalism in America is actually quite terrifying to me. The idea of schools making children make a 'pledge of allegiance to the country' is absolutely fucking bonkers in the first place. It's almost like children are force-indoctrinated from a young age into a very non-critical and nationalist sentiment, which leads to ridiculously chauvinistic depictions of the world (e.g. 'we don't care about indigenous American history because it isn't important!' or 'I've never heard of your country, so why should I know about it?'), and an enormous lack of critical thinking with regards to politics. For an example, a poll stated that around 60% of Americans still believed that Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the 9/11 attack, something which has been proven completely and utterly false. Another is the video I linked above: look at the god-damn 'reasoning' those Texans use to justify invading a country they've never even bloody heard of?

Good point, I was actually going to bring up the whole Saddam-9/11 connection that many Americans seem to believe in. In most of Europe and, well, pretty much everywhere outside of the US, this would be an absurd statement to make. But most Americans assumed that Saddam had something to do with 9/11 when war was declared on Iraq and pretty much no one, including the media, bothered to challenge this clearly unfounded assumption. I mean, if aliens landed on earth right now their greatest minds would probably struggle to work out just how America rules most of this planet.

[La Comédie Noire]

Americans are infuriatingly provincial, arrogant, and at times willfully ignorant. Being an American I see it everyday, but they can also be alright. So I guess it varies from person to person?

You know what's really strange? I've never encountered rampant anti-Americanism from non Americans, sure they'd agree with the above estimation, but on the whole they'd see us as alright. It's other Americans who display the most anti-Americanism, like the blood thirsty, flag burning, lynch the decadent bastards anti-Americanism.

Which gets really funny when they go to other countries and expect to find ultra leftist, super intellectuals, only to find people just as indifferent and incapable at Geography as anybody else.

[Jimmie Higgins]

In terms of intellectual capabilities, I'd assume americans are no different or less sophisticated than anyone else. What we do have is a terrible public school system that is more of a class filtering sive than an educational institution; an extreemly narrow mainstream political spectrum which includes everything from neoliberal Democrats to neoliberal Republicans who mearly debate the speed of locking people up or implenting austerity; massive and demoralizing inequality which results in working class americans working more for less with minimal safty-nets in terms of unemployment. Since the recession (and occupy), the way that worker wages have stagnated and shrunk compared to (and resulting in) the massive expansion of productivity and corporate wealth is no longer as much of a hidden truth in US society, what most people don't realize is that that's just the most easily mesurable feature of neoliberalism. The other part of it is that we have less free-time, less holidays, more ridged working conditions compared to many European and some Latin American countries.

All this adds up to a very pessimistic situation where workers can't vote even for reforms and repression of unions (and the bad politics of the union leadership) means that avenue for having some control over our daily conditions is also massively reduced. There's lots of anger... but it's directionless without much of a class movement.

In terms of provincialism - it's very true too. The US mainstream mainly only talks about other countries if our rulers are in competition with them and/or want to bomb them. But I think Americans also don't know their own country and are presented a very distorted picture full of myths about ourselves and out history.

[DasFapital]

Well stupidity is a global problem but I think American imperialism gives our population a "we're number 1" that causes them to disregard external sources of information. I know some very well educated who reject evolution, believe in the existence of Bigfoot, think the Democrats are commies, that vaccines cause autism, really all sorts of shit.

[Aleister Granger]

We Americans are a business-oriented people who look askance at unnecessary education. We're not stupid, but we do have a proud tradition of anti-intellectualism. I always hear alarmist reports about Americans who can't find the United States on a map, or who think that our war of independence was waged against China, but I've never personally met anyone that ignorant.

In the other thread, I discuss my meetings with USicans who think that only whites can be racist as well as those who say that whites have never been racist, ever.
I've even said this, that it sounds impossible, that I must be making it up. No, I've met USicans who seriously think these things.


Well stupidity is a global problem but I think American imperialism gives our population a "we're number 1" that causes them to disregard external sources of information. I know some very well educated who reject evolution, reject revolution (unless it's to set up a "pro-American" right wing government) believe in the existence of Bigfoot, think the Democrats are commies, that vaccines cause autism, really all sorts of shit.

Added something for you since we've had similar experiences.

[Red_Banner]

Americans generally aren't very Worldly.

They think on their side the grass is the greenest.

Despite all the problems, people still buy the patriotism, chauvanism, and exceptionalism.

And although alot more Americans are becomming irreligious, religious organizations are becomming more aggressive.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Well stupidity is a global problem but I think American imperialism gives our population a "we're number 1" that causes them to disregard external sources of information. I know some very well educated who reject evolution, believe in the existence of Bigfoot, think the Democrats are commies, that vaccines cause autism, really all sorts of shit.

Excuse me?

1. Bigfoot is real
2. Vaccines cause Democrats
3. Bigfoot is a commie and that's why no one thinks she exists
4. And I never read the National Enquirer. As you well know: I don't know how to read.


OK, yeah there are lots of myths and it's frustrating and exists across the spectrum of political ideas. What's worse is when people who are formally well educated who think they know something because they heard it on NPR or read about it: "I don't think we can make a judgement about if Israel is mistreating people... it's a very complex situation, you know." "BART train union workers make 200,000 a year!" "we have no money to pay for all these programs" "we can't just throw money at the public schools to fix them... we need to throw that money at banks who lost all their money"

[synthesis]

I think the real issue here, besides the public school factor that JH mentions, is that British people can be just as "stupid and arrogant" but in a way that perhaps culturally makes more sense to other British people than "stupid and arrogant" Americans. I believe the other political tendencies can be explained by the fact that the U.S. is a dominant empire and therefore needs to keep a tight grip on information for propagandistic purposes; I think you'd have seen the same thing in England before the sun set on the British Empire.

[Lily Briscoe]

Americans generally aren't very Worldly.

I think this is a huge part of it.

There is an extremely insular culture in America, and you'd almost think people don't realize there is even a world outside US borders.

[Lily Briscoe]

Also, it's irritating when people get so defensive about it. I'm American and the observation doesn't offend me; I think it's basically true, unfortunately. So you can do the whole "NO, PEOPLE IN YOUR COUNTRY ARE JUST AS STUPID!!!" thing, but the reality is that this is how Americans come across to a lot of the rest of the world, and it's pretty understandable why people feel this way, particularly considering how arrogant so many people in this country are in their ignorance.

[Aleister Granger]

I remember there being an uproar in the right, when they had gotten angry when a woman with slightly darker skin than pale was crowned Miss America. They said "why can't an American win Miss America?"
So even if you're born in America and have ancestry in America, if you're not whit- er, look "American" enough, you're not American?

[Per Levy]

well the way i see it, us-americans arnt more stupid or more idiotic than any other people in the world, ignorant though? yes i see that and i see that it is largly because the of society seems to be like "america is number 1" "america is the best" "america is the strongest" all the time, wich probally helps. since im not a us-citizen i cant say much about the education system but from what i heard, especialls in history class, its about how amazing the usa is. so i see how stuff like this helps to breed ignorance quite a lot. anyway, i know to little and feel free to correct me if im wrong.

[synthesis]

Also, it's irritating when people get so defensive about it. I'm American and the observation doesn't offend me; I think it's basically true, unfortunately. So you can do the whole "NO, PEOPLE IN YOUR COUNTRY ARE JUST AS STUPID!!!" thing, but the reality is that this is how Americans come across to a lot of the rest of the world, and it's pretty understandable why people feel this way, particularly considering how arrogant so many people in this country are in their ignorance.

I honestly think that anyone who attaches these broadly negative traits to an entire culture - even and perhaps especially people from that culture - hasn't actually seen very much of the world themselves.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Americans aren't the only ones with "stupid" attitudes about a variety of subjects...I witnessed this first hand in a variety of interactions I had overseas, from an Australian tourist I travelled with for a bit making the claim that everyone should just speak English everywhere and that travelers should not put any effort into learning anything about local languages, to a Dutch Red Cross worker I had a long conversation/debate with on a train about nationality, culture and gypsies (a "dirty people" according to him)

So why you may find certain things mystifying about America and all it's absurdities, I'm sure that there are Americans who are mystified by, say, sports fans screaming racial slurs and throwing bananas from the stands when they see black players.

[RedHal]

yeah there are ignorant ppl all over, but because the US is the global hegemon that loves to bomb poor countries, having a population so ignorant and patriotic is very troubling.

[edwad]

I'm from Alabama, which is the best state in the United States, and honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about. *shoots red, white, and blue fireworks into the air while riding on a dirt bike through an ocean of mud chasing a hog and flexing my arms, watching my "God , Guns , And Glory" tattoo dance on my giant bicep*

[synthesis]

If we're sharing anecdotes, here's one: about ten years ago, I lived in Ghana for awhile, and for the first month or two I was there I had to associate with a group of maybe twenty Europeans, mostly about my age, mostly British. They were, without exception, some of the most frustratingly racist, arrogant and insular people I've ever met. I was basically persona non grata because I was dating a "local" woman, and I didn't voluntarily associate with other Westerners for some time. It was so refreshing when I came across some American students at the University of Accra a couple months in, and it wasn't just because I was a teenager and could relate to them more on a cultural level; they didn't look down on people for dating "locals," they didn't constantly complain about the country and the people living there, and while their interest in the culture came across as patronizing sometimes, at least they weren't just completely contemptuous of the culture and everyone who composed it. That's an example of a reason why I find attitudes such as those in the OP to be irritating.

[Aleister Granger]

I'm from Alabama, which is the best state in the United States, and honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about. *shoots red, white, and blue fireworks into the air while riding on a dirt bike through an ocean of mud chasing a hog and flexing my arms, watching my "God , Guns , And Glory" tattoo dance on my giant bicep*

Every true American knows Ohio is the greatest state in the Union, so I'm not a true American or an American at all

[Lily Briscoe]

I honestly think that anyone who attaches these broadly negative traits to an entire culture - even and perhaps especially people from that culture - hasn't actually seen very much of the world themselves.

This isn't actually a counterpoint at all, but I'll oblige: I haven't seen any of the world beyond the US and Canada. I have no idea what this is supposed to prove, considering that a) "seeing much of the world" isn't a privilege that most people have (just to add, a handful of American students at the University of Accra...yeah, that's definitely a representative sample of Americans), and b) there are most certainly well-traveled people with a dim view of American culture.

At any rate, I've known enough people who aren't from this country to have encountered the view of Americans as generally ignorant and arrogant. And I've been around the US enough (including living for extended periods of time on both sides of the continent) to know that this impression isn't some totally baseless misconception, and at the very least deserves to be addressed rather than arrogantly dismissed or turned into some national dick-measuring contest. The influence of the US (and particularly the US military) throughout much of the world makes this all the more important. None of this is to say that America is the only country on earth with an inward-looking culture, but I assume that goes without saying.

[Marxaveli]

While perhaps the OP overstates things a bit, he has a point about the 'stockholm syndrome' that American workers seem to be under. As an American myself, I see it everyday - and it is pretty frightening. To many of these people, white is black and black is white, up is down and down is up. And while I haven't traveled to other nations, I have discoursed with many people from around the world online and there is little doubt that Europeans and Latin Americans are far more open to leftism than US citizens are. I would say that if class consciousness isnt the lowest here on the planet, it sure as hell comes close.

[synthesis]

This isn't actually a counterpoint at all, but I'll oblige: I haven't seen any of the world beyond the US and Canada. I have no idea what this is supposed to prove, considering that a) "seeing much of the world" isn't a privilege that most people have, and b) there are most certainly well-traveled people with a dim view of Americans.

I had a feeling. It proves that you can't possibly have a nuanced view on this position that Americans are somehow exceptionally stupid and arrogant beyond the qualities induced by our terrible education system and our imperial triumphalism.

[Lily Briscoe]

I had a feeling. It proves that you can't possibly have a nuanced view on this position that Americans are somehow exceptionally stupid and arrogant beyond the qualities induced by our terrible education system and our imperial triumphalism.

Right, going to University abroad and being picked on by some British people certainly gives you a fountain of worldly knowledge which puts you above actually addressing any of the content of my comment.

[synthesis]

I should specify that I wasn't in college (yet); I was working a 9-to-5. Anyway, people like you are the flip side of the people who go on about how great the U.S. is even though they haven't ever been outside the country for more than a week or two at a time - or the people who complain about "average Americans" despite never having been here or met more than a handful of Americans in their lives. You all just look for anecdotes that support your perspective and reject those that don't, this thread being a case in point. You also missed the point of my anecdote, which wasn't just that the Americans I met were all decent people, but also that all the Europeans I met were fucking terrible people; you also don't seem to understand that as an anecdote it's not supposed to be evidence of anything, just a story that reflects why I've come to have the outlook I have today. I'm eagerly awaiting your furiously scripted reply.

[Lily Briscoe]

Right, so again, not actually addressing anything I said. You know I've noticed this when I had some discussion with you on another thread; you don't actually seem to read the posts you respond to.

[synthesis]

I admit that sometimes I leave threads when I lose interest in them. The real difference between you and me, however, is that when I talk about your perspective and experiences, it pertains to the content of the thread and isn't just a silly, vindictive personal attack.

[Radio Spartacus]

Greetings, from AMERICA! The land of the free, now featuring the world's highest incarceration rate.

I don't buy into the idea of my fellow Americans being the caricature seen on TV, but the concentration of bourgeois bullshit in our culture is disproportionate to the rest of the industrialized world and I kind of want out.

This is one of the main power bases of the neoliberal social order in the world, and the American media is really good at controlling opinion. The bourgeoisie has been incredibly innovative as far as controlling the opinion of the American population to the point that they dominate morality, for material reasons I'm sure we can all reach without explanation.

[Lily Briscoe]

I admit that sometimes I leave threads when I lose interest in them. The real difference between you and me, however, is that when I talk about your perspective and experiences, it pertains to the content of the thread and isn't just a silly, vindictive personal attack.Except that you don't, which is the entire point I just made. All of your responses to my posts in this thread have consisted of "people like you have probably x" and "people like you are just y"--basically making assumptions about what I think (which aren't supported by anything I've actually said) and then addressing those assumptions, rather than engaging with anything I actually say in my posts.

But since this is all really off-topic bickering, I'll leave it here and just make a mental note to avoid engaging you in threads going forward.

[synthesis]

Except that you don't, which is the entire point I just made. All of your responses to my posts in this thread have consisted of "people like you have probably x" and "people like you are just y"--basically making assumptions (which aren't supported by anything I've actually said) and then addressing those assumptions, rather than engaging with anything I actually say in my posts.

But since this is all really off-topic bickering, I'll leave it here and just make a mental note to avoid engaging you in threads going forward.

Dude, you don't actually have any evidence for your assumptions - about this supposed discrepancy between American culture and the rest of the world that can't be explained through materialist phenomena - besides these vague anecdotes that you don't even go into detail about. Because you're not actually making real points for me to address - aside from trying to say that my own anecdote isn't evidence of anything (no shit!) - I'd rather go into the reasons why I think this tendency exists among Americans who don't have a lot of cultural experiences to which they can compare their life in the United States.

I don't think my posts are off-topic at all. They deal with the roots of these homegrown assumptions about the broadly negative aspects of American culture and how they all originate in the same sense of American exceptionalism that produces our well-publicized jingoism. It's ignorant in exactly the same way that people are saying American "patriotism" is ignorant, but I can't prove that to you because I can't force you to have the same experiences I've had. But I used to say the same kinds of things before I spent time overseas (and noticed the same tendencies in other countries as in my story above, about Americans actually being more culturally tolerant than Europeans, perhaps because we feel like we have something to prove in that respect) and I still notice people IRL saying the same kind of shit and they all, without exception, very obviously don't have the base of experience that would give them credibility in these matters.

edit: I actually have to say that this kind of bothers me:


Right, going to University abroad and being picked on by some British people certainly gives you a fountain of worldly knowledge which puts you above actually addressing any of the content of my comment.

The point was that I was "picked on" for having a relationship with an African woman. And at the time it certainly didn't bother me any more than the other racist shit they said and did; that part was simply supposed to be a contrast to the American students who freely dated African men and women without being ostracized from their group. Was I wrong to include this information?

[Ocean Seal]

Before I get accused of racism or whatnot please hear me out.

From what I've seen on television and from personal experiences it appears that a large majority of Americans are stupid, ignorant, and/or arrogant. I'm aware that many other countries around the world have a similar view of Americans but I had previously assumed that American ignorance and stupidity was confined to the uneducated, conservative or lower-classes of American society. But having heard similar idiocy from college-educated Americans I've been forced to reconsider my assumptions. Some of them were even critical of American patriotism and exceptionalism but were still very stupid and/or ignorant when it came to specific social and political issues. Even when attempting to correct this ignorance in the nicest possible way, and attempting to explain why "issues" in their country are simply puzzling to the rest of the world (such as gun control or healthcare), it's as if they have some mechanism that automatically switches off the brain and all auditory processing. This is extremely frustrating and merely confirms my suspicions about why Stockholm Syndrome is so rampant among the American working class. I have heard from one American that politics is a compulsory class from 7th grade and that mathematics is compulsory even up to college. This isn't even the case in my own country. This just leaves me absolutely perplexed at why Americans seem so stupid, ignorant and politically illiterate. As an outsider, this clearly appears to be the work of carefully crafted bourgeois propaganda and brainwashing on a level that would be inconceivable in my own country.

I would like to hear from American Revlefters particularly. Is this ignorance and stupidity as widespread as I am led to believe? Is propaganda and brainwashing very obvious in the education system (examples/personal experiences if possible)? Or have I simply had unlucky encounters?

In many ways you are correct. Americans are more backwards politically than the rest of the developed world across a series of issues. We are not taught politics from the 7th grade. We are taught history, a history which places America as a somewhat abusive power (esp. towards blacks and native americans) towards the beginning of its history, but places emphasis on how we were the first democracy in the modern world and how we fought for everyone's rights.

Our constitution (a reactionary document by most standards) is upheld as godspel and criticism is literally not allowed. The question of whether we should get rid of the constitution is never brought up, and the historical abuses that were facilitated because of the constitution are never addressed.

Once someone mentions that something is unconstituional, they appear to have the higher ground. Many students memorize the constitution especially those who have an interest in politics.

Here is a list of other things that might contribute to American exceptionalism

1.Anti-government groups are completely glossed over.

a.Not even mentioned (and I mean not even once)-Black Panthers, Young Lords, Puerto Rican independence movements, IWW, International Workers Day and its history, Rainbow coalition, Sanitation Workers strike, etc.

b. Barely mentioned (once a year in a US history class perhaps a subject of less than five minutes of one class)- Filipino independence movements, workers movements, Eugene V. Debs, Free Silver movement, Sacco and Vanzetti, Radical Republicans, John Brown, etc.

c.Whitewashed-civil rights movement, women's rights figures, Civil War

2.Innovation is described by a great man theory (ie: John D. Rockefeller wasn't a nice guy, but without him all of this great progress in the oil business never would have happened).

3. We are taught that we have the best government in the world. Literally, and it becomes to commonplace that we accept it as being true. It seems almost absurd to contradict. We actually don't study any, and I mean any other countries method of government. Not even the W. Euroepean one's. I still to this day have a pretty weak understanding of parliamentary democracy.

4. We are taught that pretty much every place that we don't like is a shithole. In every way. Hence we are invading them to make them better. Even if our motives can be denied (ie: most people don't believe that we are liberating anyone) what is undeniable is that we are going up against the bad guys.

5. We are taught to hate the Middle East. Plain and simple more than any other region in the world.

6. We are taught that we have amended for all of our sins as a nation. We no longer have slaves and we no longer force Native Americans onto reservations. The Unions have outlived their purpose of curtailing the greedy capitalists of the past. Every thing is okay.

That is our revisionist history. And this is without even getting into world history.

[Ocean Seal]

Oh and here is a quick summary

1. England Attacks and We get Democracy

2. England Attacks again

3. We liberate Texas from that Mexican dictator (who we don't mention wanted to abolish slavery in Texas)

4. We had the Civil War. kk Slavery is done.

5. Gilded age ends with New Deal. Capitalism works and workers have it good.

6. WWII- We are the greatest. We beat the Nazis.

7. Civil Rights-- okay this time we are actually not racist.

8. Berlin Wall Falls- commies lose because people want freedom.

9. Don't talk about current events.

[Zealot]

I honestly think that anyone who attaches these broadly negative traits to an entire culture - even and perhaps especially people from that culture - hasn't actually seen very much of the world themselves.

I haven't actually been to America but I have spent several years overseas in various countries and consider myself well-traveled.


You all just look for anecdotes that support your perspective and reject those that don't, this thread being a case in point. You also missed the point of my anecdote, which wasn't just that the Americans I met were all decent people, but also that all the Europeans I met were fucking terrible people; you also don't seem to understand that as an anecdote it's not supposed to be evidence of anything, just a story that reflects why I've come to have the outlook I have today. I'm eagerly awaiting your furiously scripted reply.

What? I'm not saying that all Americans are stupid or ignorant or that every non-American is super smart. But there definitely is a disproportionate amount of stupid and/or ignorant citizens in the US. Despite never having visited your country, I get the feeling that I literally know more about America than 90% of the Americans that I come into contact with. You do yourself no favours by denying the epidemic of stupidity and ignorance among Americans.

Again, let me emphasise that I believe this definitely has a material reason and that this goes much deeper than mere stupidity - there is also a peculiar worldview that permeates the American consciousness, which does not affect the rest of the world. For instance, I have no reason to believe my country is particularly exceptional or special and most of my fellow citizens feel the same way. When I'm walking the street, I struggle to find our national flag anywhere except perhaps at the front of a handful of government buildings that most people wouldn't notice anyway. Therefore, I have less reason to be as ignorant, as arrogant, or as stupid as the average American with their peculiarly American-consciousness. I have less reason to believe that knowing about other countries is irrelevant, or that our constitution is god-inspired scripture. This is actually a particularly important point because I think that one of the most important goals of the American left should be to expose the Americentric-consciousness that permeates American conservatism, liberalism, and even leftism to some extent. If you deny this you simply demonstrate that you yourself are a victim of this.

[synthesis]

This is actually a particularly important point because I think that one of the most important goals of the American left should be to expose the Americentric-consciousness that permeates American conservatism, liberalism, and even leftism to some extent. If you deny this you simply demonstrate that you yourself are a victim of this.

The funny thing is that you assume this has never come up in our domestic political dialogue despite the fact that you've never been here. The funnier thing is that you say this after going on about how ignorant Americans are about other countries. It's also funny that you keep going on about "the epidemic of stupidity and ignorance" in America, barely tying this to materialist causes, while also stereotyping Americans as arrogant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection).

Well, although a lot of us are, the real explanation for all this is that out of all the developed nations, the U.S. has the most areas, geographically speaking, that are comparable to developing countries in terms of living conditions, education and so on. When you don't make exceptions for this, you're worse than the people you're talking about because you're blaming the victims in this respect.

The other factor, however - not that I'd expect you to be able to distinguish the two - is that these areas exist on the soil of the most powerful empire on the planet (well, China's coming up on us) and it is this dichotomy that produces cognitive dissonance on a widespread scale.

[Zealot]

The funny thing is that you assume this has never come up in our domestic political dialogue despite the fact that you've never been here. The funnier thing is that you say this after going on about how ignorant Americans are about other countries. It's also funny that you keep going on about "the epidemic of stupidity and ignorance" in America, barely tying this to materialist causes, while also stereotyping Americans as arrogant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection).

Well, it does have material causes dating back to at least the war of independence but I didn't bother writing an essay-post on that for obvious reasons. Some of the American left still suffer from the same problems I've been talking about so how can you say that I'm "assuming" things? And I'm not stereotyping Americans as arrogant. I'm pointing out the arrogance inherent in American exceptionalism and the American consciousness - which is widespread but not necessarily a holy doctrine - and how this leads to overwhelming arrogance that is not found elsewhere. Are you really prepared to deny this?


Well, although a lot of us are, the real explanation for all this is that out of all the developed nations, the U.S. has the most areas, geographically speaking, that are comparable to developing countries in terms of living conditions, education and so on. When you don't make exceptions for this, you're worse than the people you're talking about because you're blaming the victims in this respect.

So now you admit it but condemn me for noting this fact. While it may have something to do with geography I doubt that this has been the most important factor. Frederick Jackson Turner's observations on the significance of the frontier on the American psyche and later theorists who noted its impact on American imperialist expansion would be a much more important factor I would think.


The other factor, however - not that I'd expect you to be able to distinguish the two - is that these areas exist on the soil of the most powerful empire on the planet (well, China's coming up on us) and it is this dichotomy that produces cognitive dissonance on a widespread scale.

Your insults are unnecessary, especially considering that you've failed to understand my points thus far and continue to create strawman arguments.

[Zealot]

Also, lol at your argument that Americans only seem arrogant because of my own psychological projections :lol: So apparently when your president says with a straight face that America is the best country in the world carrying out the work of god and everyone claps for him, these are just my psychological projections. I hate to say it, but rather than defend Americans you seem to have dug the hole even deeper :laugh:

[Thirsty Crow]

I can't help but chuckle when remembering that documentary a guy from Croatia made about Americans. Somewhere in California, he pulled up a couple of people on the street and asked them which were the capitals of Italy and France respectively. The answers were "France" when asked about Italy and "Italy" when asked about France :lol:

[Stalinist Speaker]

i wouldn't only point it at america only but to pretty much the whole first world

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I think there are a combination of factors at work here.

First is the prominence of American culture and viewpoints on the world stage, which means that American exceptionalism and ignorance gets wider broadcasting than say, Chinese or British exceptionalism and ignorance, which is more limited to audiences in those respective countries. I know from personal experience that plenty of British people hold shitty opinions (look at the Daily Mail, for fuck's sake), and from the sounds of it Chinese nationalists are fucking batshit. It's just that the rest of the world doesn't get to hear so much about it.

Another is a culture of anti-intellectualism, which has been mentioned by others in this thread. While the US is a world leader in things like the physical and applied sciences, the skeptical approach to "softer" subjects appears to be commonly regarded with a deep suspicion at the best of times. There are anti-intellectual streaks in other countries as well of course, although it seems to manifest differently; for example, in Britain anti-intellectualism takes the form of condescension rather than suspicion, e.g. referring to scientists and academics as "boffins", with the implication that they're scatterbrained navel-gazers rather than Marxist subversives.

Finally, the sheer size of the US in terms of both geography and population fosters the development of insular worldviews, and it wouldn't surprise me if this was the case for similarly large countries as well.

[synthesis]

Your insults are unnecessary, especially considering that you've failed to understand my points thus far and continue to create strawman arguments.

The problem I have is that posting a thread like this in the Learning forum is like me posting a thread in the Learning forum asking, "Why is there such an epidemic of nationalism and conservatism among Marxist-Leninists and Maoists?" It's dishonest in that it restricts the discussion to people commiserating about the reactionary elements of those tendencies and consequently doesn't allow for discussion about the extent to which those tendencies actually exist. You have people condescendingly dismissing any suggestion that there could be a reason for the prevalence of the stereotype beyond the seed of truth of it, which I certainly will concede is both real and significant. It's not even a sober analysis of the material reasons for these tendencies, it's just shitting on people for being born where they were born out of spite. There is a way to describe the negative cultural traits of a country without disrespecting everyone in it by association; there has to be, because Ocean Seal and NoXion have both managed it.

[Alexios]

"I'm not elitist, but everyone besides me sure is DUMB!"

[Zealot]

The problem I have is that posting a thread like this in the Learning forum is like me posting a thread in the Learning forum asking, "Why is there such an epidemic of nationalism and conservatism among Marxist-Leninists and Maoists?" It's dishonest in that it restricts the discussion to people commiserating about the reactionary elements of those tendencies and consequently doesn't allow for discussion about the extent to which those tendencies actually exist.

Again, trying to turn it back on me because of my tendency. Not gonna work. But let me jog your memory about why this thread exists:


Is this ignorance and stupidity as widespread as I am led to believe? Is propaganda and brainwashing very obvious in the education system (examples/personal experiences if possible)? Or have I simply had unlucky encounters?


...I've made this thread so I can get an idea of the extent of this problem...

You admit in a previous post that you would "rather go into the reasons why I think this tendency exists among Americans" but have thus far refused to do so despite this very point being the entire reason for the thread.

Which brings me to your next protest:


You have people condescendingly dismissing any suggestion that there could be a reason for the prevalence of the stereotype beyond the seed of truth of it, which I certainly will concede is both real and significant. It's not even a sober analysis of the material reasons for these tendencies, it's just shitting on people for being born where they were born out of spite. There is a way to describe the negative cultural traits of a country without disrespecting everyone in it by association; there has to be, because Ocean Seal and NoXion have both managed it.

See above; I was seeking first-hand knowledge and experiences on why this problem exists in the United States. Unfortunately, you've taken this thread as a personal attack upon yourself rather than respond intelligently as have Ocean Seal and NoXion, as you have noted. You've admitted that there are acute problems suffered in the American consciousness. But you feel disrespected, perhaps offended, but I'm not sure if this is because I've hit a nerve or if you suffer from latent Americonsciousness. Whatever the case, I hope to see some more substance in your next post.

[synthesis]

You seem to believe, amusingly, that your posts in this thread have any sort of genuine materialist substance that makes them worth responding to in depth. Your bigger problem is that you've conflated the questions, "Why and to what extent does ignorance and arrogance exist in American culture?" and "Why is American culture so much more ignorant and arrogant than the rest of the world?" And the part about the conservatism and nationalism of Marxism-Leninism was an analogy for the intellectual dishonesty of your original post in this thread, not a personal attack on your tendency, which you seem to have missed.

I just think it's funny that people who go on and on with these uninformed and more importantly unproductive diatribes about how stupid, ignorant and arrogant Americans are, almost always are either non-Americans who have never lived here or Americans who have never lived anywhere else. All I'm asking for is a little nuance to your criticism; it's really not that difficult.

For all America's problems and sins - and it would be an understatement to say that there are many - it's still where I'm from. It's where a lot of the people I grew up with are from. Criticize the United States as much as you want - please, do it - but if people engage in uninformed hypocrisy, as you have done, or uninformed self-hatred, as Strix has done, I think it's important that they be called out on it.

And I don't feel the need to respond to the posts of Ocean Seal and NoXion, because I don't disagree with what they have to say. They have somehow managed to offer solid critiques without being incredibly judgmental in the process.

[goalkeeper]

tbh americans seem much more aware of history, even if just foundational myths. talk of the magna carta, civil war, glorious revolution of 1688 and stuff hardly features in 'lay' public discourse or debate in britain in the way the us revolution, constitution etc does in america. not that this historical consciousness (which is often rather distorted) necessarily leads to good or any politics, but i think its worth noting to the elitist "ahaha dumb american" crowd. i don't think its fair to call the average person in any country stupid though. no they don't give a shit about your hobby-politics but remember that you are a nerd.

didnt american teenagers and smug europeans (especially british comedians) get over this "american is sooo dumb" thing after Bush left office?

[RadioRaheem84]

Americans aren't stupid, they're just under-educated, mis-informed or mis-directed by our public school system, the media or any other institution with a bullhorn.

I do, as an American, resent this overly defensive attitude my countrymen (even on this forum) have against any criticism labeled at the country. I know they're trying to be broadminded by saying that every country has stupid people, but not every country as this extremely propagandist media and information distribution that blurs the lines between absolute falsehoods and "balance". Americans certainly are trying to be educated, there is no doubt about that but the distribution of information in this country is skewed, the access to better info limited, and the time to actually sit down and get informed even less.

Plus our thinking is so fucking insular sometimes that it's maddening. You could sit there and talk to a right wing conservative and he will tell you that death is a consequence of not being personally responsible enough to afford healthcare, he will also tie it in to a universal philosophy about incentives and taking personal responsibility for yourself and worse yet; the freedom to choose. All this while eliminating the option to choose universal healthcare or completely missing the point that just above the country there is another developed country that provides universal healthcare and dying from a treatable disease is nearly non-existent.

The thing that separates Americans from the rest of the world is that for many Americans that world order, what constitutes order in this world is heavily vested on American exceptionalism. This mentality is assumed by the average working American to an Ivy educated ivory tower professor. Even watching a Frontline episode on universal healthcare I was floored at how the show tried to show a balanced approach to all the universal plans in the world and with the American system, as if there was any comparison, as if these things needed to be weighed out before we have a rational discussion on providing people who cannot afford healthcare with care. Educated people have these "balanced" discussions all the time when in most other nations these discussions would seem like non-issues.

Americans tie their experiences in America as universal experiences people face everywhere. They will think one poorer ethnic minority group (largely Latinos and African Americans) are "dirty" because their "culture" doesn't promote cleanliness but would exalt another minority group for being cleaner and hardworking(usually Asians), totally skipping over the fact that in their mother countries they have extreme poverty where the streets in Mumbai, Manilla and even Seoul can look just as dire as the streets that they accuse the former of being. You don't have to be a right wing racist either to think those things but I've heard casual liberal say this all the time too.

Has anyone even made mention that class has all been amputated from the political discussion in America, and if it is it's usually income based; poor, middle, upper, wealthy? That in the average Americans view, you can talk about how unfair things are but talk about redistributing is akin to fascism or you're exhibiting traits of "class envy"? Also the notions that people accept about public assistance or public programs being inefficient when they're usually not and can be life or death to some people, or this notion that's been drilled in their head that business runs things much smoother than the public sector?

Reagan and Thatcher completed their mission of turning the US and to some extent the UK maybe, to think like entrepreneurs and not workers anymore. The political and economic discourse in the US is so fried that I cannot see how anyone can have a remotely decent conversation with some madness being slipped in and assumed as universal logic.

So yes, what our foreign comrades are witnessing is true, they're not blind or being stereotypical, I disagree that Americans are stupid, they're just like I said before, badly educated and misinformed. But this phenomena is scary to other people because we hold such sway politically economically and militarily. In some ways we come off as a giant religiously fundamentalist and nationalistic nation.

[Firebrand]

When people discuss politics the logic of the discussion is dependent on them sharing a series of assumptions which are taken as self evident truths that do not require explanation. This is especially true of people who hold mainstream views. Radicals of any sort are used to having to start from scratch with their listeners, but people with mainstream views tend to rely on an existing scaffolding of commonly held beliefs. For example here in england, a belief that would be held as self evident, would be that the NHS is fundamentally a good thing. There may be disagreements about the precise way is should be organised, but not even the most right wing nutjobs would publicly come out against it. So any discussion of the healthcare system would start from the point that "of course we need an NHS but..." from that point people will say different things depending on their politics but the discussion starts with an implicit acceptance of the NHS principle. For a discussion to make sense as a rational and coherent things there must be a common starting point, a basic agreement on the boundaries of the discussion. There have to be things that you don't need to argue to form a basis for the things you do argue.

The reason america often comes across as arrogant/ignorant to people from other countries, is that the series of assumptions that american political dialogue is based on, are extremely america specific, and generally a lot more right wing than most other countries, that the discussions then make very little sense to people from outside america. For example, most americans will implicitly take the constitution as a starting point, rendering any further discussion based on that assumption lacking in foundation to anyone not bound by the american constitution. In other words americans argue things that a lot of other countries consider unarguable (healthcare is a big one), and consider unarguable a lot of things other countries consider arguable (e.g that private property is sacred). This makes it hard for people from some countries to understand how americans can make the arguments they do without being horribly ignorant.

[RadioRaheem84]

Exactly. I also feel that a lot of Americans even lack a foundation for basic things in a political, economic or even social debate. Lots of the things Americans presuppose are so blatantly wrong they're not even in the same boat of rational presumptions that people in other countries think. I mean the healthcare example is a great one. We have a sizable portion of the population who protests against universal healthcare, they protest OBamacare, could you imagine the mini-riots from extremists if an actual universal healthcare plan was administered? People protest, and promise violence in this country, if things are enacted that would be in their best interests! That's scary and shows the level of propaganda that has seeped into the discourse. At the other end of the spectrum the liberals weigh in and have to consider the ramifications of a universal healthcare system as if that is necessary when other nations have proven it's success and poorer nations like Cuba have proven that it's massively effective. Americans will argue and tell other Americans that Brits and Canadians are suffering because of the healthcare there, if a Canadian or Brit tells them otherwise, they will think that they're lying or just too afraid to tell the truth.
Americans will believe that we cannot side with anyone in the Israeli conflict because it's complex and they've been battling over there since the Biblical age so why bother. That the problems in the middle east are solely cultural and due to their religion. Many people in Europe probably believe this but I bet not to the extent that Americans do.
No where else in the world has libertarian and conservative propaganda so skewed the debate to North Korea levels of control.

So yes the problem is uniquely American. That cannot be denied.