Anti-White Hate Groups

[Bolshevik Sickle]

If there is one thing about hate and racism, is that there will always be sinister people on both sides. Hate is very contagious, but it is not incurable.

http://patdollard.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/new-black-panthers-600x350.jpg

The New Black Panthers makes it pretty clear they have a strong hatred for white people, and will not hesitate to take white life.
New Black Panthers call for a race war against all whites in heat of the Zimmerman case. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6uotLADch0)


I am no fan of racism FROM or AGAINST anybody. It is important to fight anti-white and anti-non-white racism at the same time, otherwise, it's pure hypocrisy.


Racism (as defined by MerriamWebster.com (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/racism))

a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
racial prejudice or discrimination


__________________________________________________ __________
Amerindian/Mestizo Supremacists
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_GwDYFxb8piY/R76OFjHf7gI/AAAAAAAABGg/5r4ptGX-tlc/s400/aztlan.gif
http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001396635/la_raza_get_out2_xlarge.gif

Chicano Nationalist in the Southern United States also make it clear that they have a sense of anti-white hatred and xenophobia. Which is hypocritically to say the least.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_KgBT8kIRgBo/SxVpziZT7RI/AAAAAAAAGFU/Le54gIU72Oc/s1600/neo-nazi-rally-004-400x300.jpg

American Neo-Nazis confront Brown Berets, both of whom are racist and chauvinistic.

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/1267/ojeu.jpg

Mexican immigrants show their frustration towards Anti-Mexican racism, however, the Brown Berets only fight the hate with more hate. Fighting fire with fire only makes the fire bigger.

Video of yet again combating Nationalism with Nationalism (Hate with Hate), which does not help at all. (http://youtu.be/lXsuVYsqCl8)

Can they be considered Fascist?


Fascism

a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition
a tendency toward or actual exercise of strong autocratic or dictatorial control


From Merriam Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fascism)

Fascism in simple terms - Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Fascism)



Yes!!

If we are anti-fascist and anti-racist, then we must combat fascism and racism from or against anybody.


http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/3016/ybkm.png

Waving Flags: What's appropriate and what is not. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=19025)

[synthesis]

But it is important to fight anti-white and anti-non-white racism at the same time

No it's not.

Why do you care who white racists choose to blame for their reactionary idiocy?

[Bolshevik Sickle]

No it's not.

Why do you care who white racists choose to blame for their reactionary idiocy?

No, I still want to combat hate-mongering groups like the NSM, and other Neo-Nazi groups in the USA/Europe.

[Zealot]

I almost shed a tear...

Not.

Anti-white racism is in no way a threat that we should expend resources to combat. Maybe they're fed up with white racists, concluded that whites are naturally incapable of having an intelligent conversation, and have decided to be racists themselves? Whatever the case, they should be no concern for anti-fascists.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

I almost shed a tear...

Not.

Anti-white racism is in no way a threat that we should expend resources to combat. Maybe they're fed up with white racists, concluded that whites are naturally incapable of having an intelligent conversation, and have decided to be racists themselves? Whatever the case, they should be no concern for anti-fascists.

I don't mean combat as in getting militant action, I'm just saying it should be condemned. You should not respond to hate and xenophobia with more hate and xenophobia. Of course you do have a point, anti-white racism is not that much of a threat, but it should still be looked at.

[#FF0000]

Of course you do have a point, anti-white racism is not that much of a threat, but it should still be looked at.

Naw, because it exists in one form: a group of dumb weirdos who no one cares about and who are entirely irrelevant. I extend this to "neo-nazi" groups too, generally, but the unfortunate reality is that those hate groups actually have a slight shred of legitimacy in comparison to groups like the NBPP, and certainly have more power, and are part of a loose worldwide network of fascist organizations.

The NBPP, the Black Israelites, etc. are side-show oddities by comparison. Yeah, what they say is wrong and odious in a lot of ways, but it doesn't actually hurt anyone. They don't have the capacity to do that.

EDIT: Oh hey, look at all those guests hovering over this topic.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

EDIT: Oh hey, look at all those guests hovering over this topic.

Makes you wonder.

[Lobotomy]

What white person actually gets their feelings hurt by this shit?

[Jimmie Higgins]

I don't think we should equate these two - related phenomena - or call seperatism or nationalism of this sort "racism" - at least not confuse it with the systemic racism that is a huge factor in maintaining the current class system.

The problems of the sort of nationalism that you are describing in terms of class struggle is that it is divisive in a class sense and ultimately is a dead end on it's own terms (ending white supremacy and oppression of X or Y group).

The way white supremacist groups and black nationalism of this sort are related is because they are responces to the much more fundamental and concrete systemic racism and racial inequalities of the system. However, it's the goal of white supremacists to defend or extend this inequality and oppression whereas black nationalism in all its forms emerges as part of a desire or effort to end or get away from that systemic racial oppression.

Marxist/Anarchist Revolutionaries should be in political competition with the ideas of these kinds nationalism and when possible try and create and push for more effective strategies based out of our understanding of how the capitalist system and oppression are linked. We agree with them that systemic racism should be smashed and the oppression of black people ended, but nationalism can not deliver that ultimately and the kinds of nationalism that blame white people abstractly for racism without any class understanding will ultimately be a dead end. White nationalists, however, seek to defend and bolster a state of affairs that we want to smash - we are not in competition with them, we are in direct opposition.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

While I do agree that these groups should be combatted (fuck the idiots in this thread who call these people 'misguided'. They're just as racist and insane as your usual nazi - black separatists included), the problem is that these groups are absolutely marginal compared to the massive number of supported, well funded hate groups that dot the western world. These racists are also propped up by the white American social atmosphere, in which african americans and other 'people of colour' suffer an enormous amount of discrimination (I read somewhere that a 1970s study concluded that many African-american children developed mental health problems associated with self-worth after only a few years at school in America, and they pinned the cause on racial discrimination). Also, a lot of those political motives of said marginal and miniscule groups you mentioned are actually used in faulty reasoning by nativist cockheads who try and demonize mesoamerican migrants. I'd bet that you can't get very far in the US' south without hearing some hysterical whitey screaming something to the effect of "THE HISPANICS ARE COMING! THE HISPANICS ARE COMING!'

I highly suggest the OP checks out this website (http://splcenter.org) to get in the know on hategroups in the US.


Also, to all the ignorant dickbags here who are still denying that human beings african-american political groups have ever been ultra-racist cult shitholes, I'd advise you to take a look at some of the shit Farrakhan, Khalid and others spewed about Hitler, the third reich and jews:


"The Jews don't like Farrakhan, so they call me Hitler. Well, that's a good name. Hitler was a very great man. He wasn't a great man for me as a black person, but he was a great German. Now, I'm not proud of Hitler's evils against Jewish people, but that's a matter of record. He raised Germany up from nothing. Well, in a sense you could say there's a similarity in that we are raising our people up from nothing."
— Louis Farrakhan, radio interview, March 11, 1984


"Jews have been conclusively linked to the greatest criminal endeavor ever undertaken against an entire race of people … the black African Holocaust. … The effects of this unspeakable tragedy are still being felt among the peoples of the world at this very hour."
— The Secret Relationship Between Blacks and Jews (NOI book), 1991


"Who are the slumlords in the Black community? The so-called Jews. … Who is it sucking our blood in the Black community? A white imposter Arab and a white imposter Jew."
— Speech by NOI national official Khalid Muhammad, Nov. 29, 1993


"These false Jews promote the filth of Hollywood that is seeding the American people and the people of the world and bringing you down in moral strength. … It's the wicked Jews, the false Jews, that are promoting lesbianism, homosexuality. It's the wicked Jews, false Jews, that make it a crime for you to preach the word of God, then they call you homophobic!"
— Louis Farrakhan, Saviours' Day speech, Feb. 26, 2006

[synthesis]

I think most Americans who have been involved in radical politics are aware of the SPLC. Anyway, I feel like groups like those mentioned in the OP take on "supremacist"/nationalist rhetoric because it's what they see as working for whites. So I think it's perfectly valid to call them "misguided," because at some level they're trying to counteract discrimination against their ethnic group, yet given that most of them are from places where racist discrimination is the worst, they've picked up on a shitty way to do that. Personally, I think it's counterproductive for white people to tell black and Latino people what they can and can't do politically, rather than just promote working class politics, but I guess that's a matter of opinion.

[Per Levy]

Anyway, I feel like groups like those mentioned in the OP take on "supremacist"/nationalist rhetoric because it's what they see as working for whites. So I think it's perfectly valid to call them "misguided," because at some level they're trying to counteract discrimination against their ethnic group, yet given that most of them are from places where racist discrimination is the worst, they've picked up on a shitty way to do that.

i very much agree with that, to me as a non-american it seems to me these groups are a reaction to the racism many people encounter every day. even though, i see it this way, that with pretty much copying white supremacy they arnt fighting it they enforce it, instead of combating racism they help to keep the status quo. anyway, i do agree that these groups are just to small and unlike nazi groups hardly hurt anyone to be much of a concern.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

The principle of any group, or even an individual, expressing hatred towards others on something as flimsy as race / creed etc is completely abhorent.
However, the 'anti-white' are only offensive, in my view, in a very limited sense and are not a direct threat to anyone. They can shout and 'preach' etc and cause annoyance but they are not in the same league as the groups and individuals who have repeatedly, for many years, targeted non-whites (from lynchings to workplace taunts and everything in-between). Their ideas / beliefs are not backed by overt state oppression or common-place attitudes towards perceived minorities.
Also, as Louis CK once said in a bit, 'I'm a white man; you can't even hurt my feelings!'

[Jimmie Higgins]

Also, to all the ignorant dickbags here who are still denying that human beings african-american political groups have ever been ultra-racist cult shitholes, I'd advise you to take a look at some of the shit Farrakhan, Khalid and others spewed about Hitler, the third reich and jews:

Is that a debate here? Bigotry or even ractionary ideas by specific black nationalists is not really the question imo. Garvey (though the movement vasselated) even claimed that Mussolini stole the idea of fascism from his movement at one point!

But to make an equivalency between people who want to defend systemic racism and people whose reaction to that systemic racism is to blame all white people is incorrect and leaves an understanding of this politics at a superficial level. So in terms of ideas in isolation from social realities, politics that claim that black people are superior to whites don't seem very different than politics that claim white people are superior to blacks. But in the context of a society where black people are systemically oppressed and endure an inferior social position to whites in general these politics occupy very different places.

The problems with blaming all white people for racism are more that it is a misunderstanding of where racism comes from in society, how it functions, and therefore what to do about it. In general nationalism by oppressed people (in a bigoted form or not) is problematic because it is a cross-class dynamic (a result of common oppression of, in this case, both black middle class people and black working class people). Generally it's middle class, not working class, concerns about oppression that "lead" these tendencies or groups but the appeal of fighting white supremacy attracts workers as well. So blaming all white people, rather than seeing the connection to capitalism and the need to keep people down and control populations and divide the working class, takes capitalism out of the equation -- and therefore black nationalists often argue for building up "black capitalism" as a counter to poverty and marginalization of black workers.

This middle-class issue is much more common among various black nationalist tradditions than black supremacy or bigotry is, and it's the bigger challenge for revolutionaries to try and counter and develop class-based organization and politics among oppressed groups.

[synthesis]

The problems with blaming all white people for racism are more that it is a misunderstanding of where racism comes from in society, how it functions, and therefore what to do about it. In general nationalism by oppressed people (in a bigoted form or not) is problematic because it is a cross-class dynamic (a result of common oppression of, in this case, both black middle class people and black working class people). Generally it's middle class, not working class, concerns about oppression that "lead" these tendencies or groups but the appeal of fighting white supremacy attracts workers as well. So blaming all white people, rather than seeing the connection to capitalism and the need to keep people down and control populations and divide the working class, takes capitalism out of the equation -- and therefore black nationalists often argue for building up "black capitalism" as a counter to poverty and marginalization of black workers.

Fully agree. The real problem for socialists isn't that they are "racist against white people" - and I'd argue that they are so insignificant that they're not really even "dividing the working class" as a whole - it's that they attempt to tie in the interests of the black and Latino working class with those of their respective bourgeoisies.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Is that a debate here? Bigotry or even ractionary ideas by specific black nationalists is not really the question imo. Garvey (though the movement vasselated) even claimed that Mussolini stole the idea of fascism from his movement at one point!

But to make an equivalency between people who want to defend systemic racism and people whose reaction to that systemic racism is to blame all white people is incorrect and leaves an understanding of this politics at a superficial level. So in terms of ideas in isolation from social realities, politics that claim that black people are superior to whites don't seem very different than politics that claim white people are superior to blacks. But in the context of a society where black people are systemically oppressed and endure an inferior social position to whites in general these politics occupy very different places.

I'm sorry - is this a defense of racial supremacy? Sorry buddy, but ethnic supremacism is reactionary and repulsive beyond belief no matter how you slice it. I honestly do not understand how not whitewashing racist groups means that I am apparently unaware of systematic racism suffered by African-Americans in the US and it's history of development (hint: I'm not).

I think the point here is this: what are you trying to imply from this?:


So in terms of ideas in isolation from social realities, politics that claim that black people are superior to whites don't seem very different than politics that claim white people are superior to blacks. But in the context of a society where black people are systemically oppressed and endure an inferior social position to whites in general these politics occupy very different places.

Is this supposed to be some kind of levy or adequate defense of these reactionary groups? Then I'm sorry, but beyond how powerful these groups are and where they spawn from, I can observe no major difference in their disgusting politics. As I already knew all of this information beforehand, I wonder what you are trying to prove here? That people who participate in black supremacist groups are just 'misguided individuals' and their political organisations should not be attacked? What ridiculous apologism.

Protip: Most hardcore islamist groups operating in the horn of Africa, sahel and the sahara do so through the form of islamic schools, where homeless children and/or orphans are invited in, given a place to stay and food to eat, and are made to study the Quran every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year. Give about a decade and the islamist pigs are offered up freshly brainwashed soldiers who have been doped under the guise of goodwill into becoming fundamentalist killing machines. While this is a truly heart rending phenomenon and can only be truly combatted by focusing on the social and economic source of said tragedy, at the end of the day you still have a bunch of insane, murderous al-shabaab recruits.




The problems with blaming all white people for racism are more that it is a misunderstanding of where racism comes from in society, how it functions, and therefore what to do about it. In general nationalism by oppressed people (in a bigoted form or not) is problematic because it is a cross-class dynamic (a result of common oppression of, in this case, both black middle class people and black working class people). Generally it's middle class, not working class, concerns about oppression that "lead" these tendencies or groups but the appeal of fighting white supremacy attracts workers as well. So blaming all white people, rather than seeing the connection to capitalism and the need to keep people down and control populations and divide the working class, takes capitalism out of the equation -- and therefore black nationalists often argue for building up "black capitalism" as a counter to poverty and marginalization of black workers.

This middle-class issue is much more common among various black nationalist tradditions than black supremacy or bigotry is, and it's the bigger challenge for revolutionaries to try and counter and develop class-based organization and politics among oppressed groups.

This had nothing to do with my post, and I claimed none of this - you seem to be reading off whatever you thought my post implied. All I made clear is that I don't look at racist fuckwads with soppy eyes just because they are of an ethnic group on the receiving end of institutional racism, unlike some other sellout leftists in this thread.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Fully agree. The real problem for socialists isn't that they are "racist against white people" - and I'd argue that they are so insignificant that they're not really even "dividing the working class" as a whole - it's that they attempt to tie in the interests of the black and Latino working class with those of their respective bourgeoisies.

Yeah if you look at the NOI, for example, their personal moral codes are like puritain work-ethic and the male-dominated nuclear family, their structures are often based around petite-bourgois enterprises. Without a working class based alternative or movement, this has an appeal to many workers because families get all dysfuntional (and that's a main default area of support) and our lives are chaoitic -- and for black workers who face job discrimination they think that black bosses might actually hire them and maybe treat them better (of course this is not true in general - at least outside of specifcally nationalist-oriented businesses).

On the "divide the working class" I think you're right, maybe divissive is better. Society is already divided but black nationalists who take a strong hostile stance against non-blacks are at least accomodating to these divides if they agree that, for example, jews and blacks or blacks and latinos are in competition.


This had nothing to do with my post, and I claimed none of this - you seem to be reading off whatever you thought my post implied.I'm sorry - don't take it personally as I did not mean to suggest that you were making that argument - it was a general point on the issue to try and broaden it out. I quoted you and agreed that in terms of ideas of this sort of nationalism can be quite repugnent. But that I think it's wrong to equate it with white supremacy because of the different social dynamics involved (i.e. supporting white supremacy like racists or reacting against it in a dead-end way like black nationalists) and there are different problems in terms of practice too. To put simply, again, I think the necissary approach as I see it shows the difference: white supremacists require hulk-like smahsing; black seperatists/supremacists require out-organizing and building a working class alternative to fighting racism.


Is this supposed to be some kind of levy or adequate defense of these reactionary groups? Then I'm sorry, but beyond how powerful these groups are and where they spawn from, I can observe no major difference in their disgusting politics. As I already knew all of this information beforehand, I wonder what you are trying to prove here? That people who participate in black supremacist groups are just 'misguided individuals' and their political organisations should not be attacked? What ridiculous apologism. I think it would be ridiculous and an accomodation to the dominant post-racial racism in the US (that excuses white supremacy by arguing that racism=bigotry and is an induvidual matter, not a structural and social issue) for groups of multi-ethinc (but mostly white probably) radicals to go out and treat ("attack") a black seperatist group like we would a neo-nazi group. First, often nazis rally as a public show to try and initimidate people, whereas black seperatists organize within black communities and don't go to white suburbs to initimidate white people (because they would be arrested on the spot). Secondly, and again, I think the thing is that we are in competition with these ideas of how to end the condition of oppression. We are not in competition with white supremacists about how best to manage a racial caste system in the US. We are in direct conflict and opposition to them.

This doesn't mean we should aim to try and recruit black seperatists or accomodate to them (I doubt they would have any interest in listening to a multi-ethnic group) but we are competing in communities over what is the best way to deal with (and end) racial oppression.


Protip: Most hardcore islamist groups operating in the horn of Africa, sahel and the sahara do so through the form of islamic schools, where homeless children and/or orphans are invited in, given a place to stay and food to eat, and are made to study the Quran every hour of every day of every week of every month of every year. Give about a decade and the islamist pigs are offered up freshly brainwashed soldiers who have been doped under the guise of goodwill into becoming fundamentalist killing machines. While this is a truly heart rending phenomenon and can only be truly combatted by focusing on the social and economic source of said tragedy, at the end of the day you still have a bunch of insane, murderous al-shabaab recruits.I am trying to learn more about Africa because I really only know bits and pieces of various modern histories there, so I don't know enough about specific social and political contexts there to even guess how African revolutionairies might best respond or deal with these tendencies or groups. I am only confident to speak to the US situation in regards to the specific question of North American Black Nationalism and more specifically black seperatism.

Since I think these ideologies are a dead-end in terms of actually combating white supremacy in US society, I don't think there is any chance of a black ruling class emerging and systematically oppressing white people or training "killing machines" - the US military turns many more black (and other) workers into killing machines. I might as well worry about Sharia law being implemented in Kansas or wherever it was that they passed a law banning it.


I'm sorry - is this a defense of racial supremacy?No, it was an attempt to put black nationalism and then more specifically ideas of black superiority into the social context as I see it. White supremacy can also be put into a context: the ruling class needs to control the laboring population (and in the US control of the black population has been there from early-on in a series of different ways); the middle class because they have some local power but not power over the system tend to want to control the behavior of workers and the poor to make their lives and livelyhoods more stable and secure; because of economic competition for jobs in capitalism, some white workers see more immediate benifit in trying to maintain a racial order where they have it slightly better in terms of job access etc, than other groups of workers. It doesn't mean I'm apologizing for white racists.

[the debater]

It is important to fight anti-white and anti-non-white racism at the same time, otherwise, it's pure hypocrisy.

Agreed. I don't think we should necessarily view the NOI or the Black Panthers as allies simply because we have a common enemy in white supremacists. Fascists, Zionists, Black Panthers, any and all racist groups should be opposed.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Agreed. I don't think we should necessarily view the NOI or the Black Panthers as allies simply because we have a common enemy in white supremacists. Fascists, Zionists, Black Panthers, any and all racist groups should be opposed.You mean the New Black Panther Party, right?

Ironically the NOI didn't oppose white supremacists and in the early 60s basically said they were "truthful" white people and counter-posed them to white liberals (who were correctly identified as giving lip service to the problems of black oppression). The overlap is NOT in them being against white supremacist groups or racist white induviduals, the overlap is that they offer an ALTERNATE explanation and prescription for systemic racism in the US (capitalist) system to oppressed people. That says to me that we are organizationally and ideologically in competition with them in terms of fighting systemic racism - prisons, police brutality, systemic under-employment, disenfranchisement, etc.

The NOI and New Black Panthers aren't allies, though some times we may have to figure out how to negotiate and compete with them in movements. Just to give one example, the NOI (who are generally apolitical) was involved in coalitions around protesting a police murder.

How would we oppose them "like all racist groups"? While they are saying white anti-racists just use blacks for their own ends and tell them what to do and ultimately betray them (and there's real history behind this from liberals and famously the CP), multi-racial left groups should surround them on the street corner where they are organizing or rallying and shout them down, physically confront them? Who'd need the KKK to intimidate black folks from organizing if that's the sort of left we had? It would validate their arguments and isolate the multi-racial radicals!

But if the KKK was holding a rally, I think we should surround them, shout them down, and try and chase them away if possible.

[Aleister Granger]

http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/forum.php
Black supremacy dominates here

Yt's, read at your own discretion!

[Creative Destruction]

Amerindian/Mestizo Supremacists

jesus christ :rolleyes:

[tachosomoza]

Non-white "hate" groups wouldn't exist if not for the determination of the white bourgeoisie to maintain a state of non-white peonage and subordination. The Nation of Islam was founded in the 1920s, a time in which black people were forced into slums in the North and onto plantations in the South, where they lived just a hairbreadth from the slavery of their ancestors. Yeah, they called white people devils, because they acted like (and many would argue, still act like) devils by the non-white community. If anything, white people's failure to let well enough alone after the Civil War (instead, founding the KKK and lynching black teachers, etc) was the cause of the current state of the African descended community and the eventual rise of groups like the NBPP and Nation of Islam. You don't like non-white "hate groups"? Stop making them hate you and actually try to listen when they're trying to talk to you. People don't like talking to brick walls, especially when the ancestors of those brick walls enslaved and tortured the ancestors of the people they criticize and demean. Non-whites don't have a stranglehold on political and economic power in the United States. White people do. Whatever happens to non-whites here, white people are responsible for it. If non-whites hate whites in the United States, they have cause to. They didn't just decide to get up one day and hate white people, it's the result of lifelong, generationally handed down oppression and sickening behavior on behalf of whites.

[khad]

This is about as laughable as some bloods on hoodup trying to talk about wiping out Latinos and going up against the cartels. There aren't enough NBPP goons to even take on the militia movement, let alone all white people.

If they are really capable of committing to a race war, they would have done it already.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

If I was a black person in the USA, knowing the history of that country as I do, I think i'd use similar language to the black panthers tbh. They've suffered so much, is it any wonder that their language is cloaked in aggression and the idea of 'race war'?

Much like we talk about class war, because class is our primary focus as marxists and revolutionary anarchists, so for black liberation groups, race is their main focus. They've been put in prison, murdered, lynched, stopped from going certain places, held down in terms of wages and civil rights, not even allowed to drink at the same fucking water fountain as others - is it any wonder that their main focus is racial liberation?

It is impossible for a black person in the US to be institutionally racist against white people, since black people are one of the most oppressed groups in the US, and have been since that country's inception.

They have every fucking right to be aggressive against the white races IMO. It doesn't mean they are, or should be, literally aggressive to every white person just for being white, but it does mean that a large component of black liberation theory (and praxis) in the US should incorporate the understanding of white privilege, and the need to use militant means to achieve the liberation of black people in the US.

[Aleister Granger]

There's a difference between black liberation (which is a branch of proletarian liberation), black power (a stronger branch of racial proletarian pride standing against and calling out racial oppression), and black supremacy ("white 'people' are not human, so blast all crakkas' brains with a shotgun").

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

There's a difference between black liberation (which is a branch of proletarian liberation), black power (a stronger branch of racial proletarian pride standing against and calling out racial oppression), and black supremacy ("white 'people' are not human, so blast all crakkas' brains with a shotgun").

True, but in my experience, many white people are quick to lump many groups in the latter camp, wrongly.

I can see why black people in the US are bitter in terms of their treatment by white people from across the political spectrum.

[Creative Destruction]

so blast all crakkas' brains with a shotgun

Stop. Please. For the love of god, please fucking stop.

[tachosomoza]

Also, we need to differentiate between the original Maoist Black Panther Party for Self Defense and the New Black Panther Party. They have nothing in common but the name, and the remaining members of the original BPP have repudiated the tactics, rhetoric and behavior of the NBPP.

[Aleister Granger]

Stop. Please. For the love of god, please fucking stop.

[Obviously] not my words. From the site itself.

[#FF0000]

what a dumb thread can we please trash it lol

[Aleister Granger]

It's not dumb at all. It's just acknowledging that racism is not indigenous to whites and is commonly confused for racial liberation by those unfamiliar to it.

[#FF0000]

It's not dumb at all. It's just acknowledging that racism is not indigenous to whites and is commonly confused for racial liberation by those unfamiliar to it.

Except no one on the planet says that only white people can have racial prejudices and the New Black Panther Party being dumb is news to nobody.

[Aleister Granger]

Except no one on the planet says that only white people can have racial prejudices and the New Black Panther Party being dumb is news to nobody.

Have you been to America? From what I've gathered, there's this mindset that only whites can truly be "racist" and everyone else who uses racial epithets "are not being serious about it." Some people even say it's 'cute' to hear when non-whites racially hate other non-whites, but 'wrong' when it's white on nonwhite.
That's what I've gathered. I think more people than we're willing to admit believe only white people can have racial prejudices, mainly because they're not willing to think, or are so brainwashed by the liberal media into accepting white liberal doctrines.

Then again this is America we're talking about. America is so, so, so backwards compared to other 1st world countries that I can't even laugh about it. Somedays I don't think America was an experiment but a joke.

[tachosomoza]

Have you been to America? From what I've gathered, there's this mindset that only whites can truly be "racist" and everyone else who uses racial epithets "are not being serious about it." Some people even say it's 'cute' to hear when non-whites racially hate other non-whites, but 'wrong' when it's white on nonwhite.
That's what I've gathered. I think more people than we're willing to admit believe only white people can have racial prejudices, mainly because they're not willing to think, or are so brainwashed by the liberal media into accepting white liberal doctrines.

Then again this is America we're talking about. America is so, so, so backwards compared to other 1st world countries that I can't even laugh about it. Somedays I don't think America was an experiment but a joke.

You sound like one of those white victimist types.

[Aleister Granger]

You sound like one of those white victimist types.

You're besides the point yourself. The fact is, in America, the view of race is so skewed by liberal media and conservative apologism that no one knows how to discuss it properly, so they assume whites are racist, no one else is, and that it's only racial hate when it's white on black and not the other way around or another race on another race. Perhaps Asians as well, but the Zimmerman trial is an example of that. The man was half-white, half-hispanic. The media blew up his white ancestry because it's too messy to talk about Hispanic-on-black attitudes because, according to white liberals, there are unfortunate implications involving an African American racist or a Hispanic racist.

By purposely making non-white racial ultranationalism synonymous with "black liberation" or "Native American liberation", you make whites seem to be the main propagator of it and thus make whites reactionary. More than they already are, I mean.

Am I making sense or do I need to restate it?

Americans don't understand race or racial attitudes, is what I'm trying to say so they rely on black and white interpretations, no pun intended, which simplifies the problem far too much. And liberals, more in an attempt to preserve bourgeois ideals than actually solve racial problems, decide to make it a black and white issue.

You don't hear too much about civil rights abuse between whites and hispanics or Asians outside immigration. America's race problem is just a bit... off. No one sees it as a class problem.

[Creative Destruction]

That's what I've gathered. I think more people than we're willing to admit believe only white people can have racial prejudices, mainly because they're not willing to think, or are so brainwashed by the liberal media into accepting white liberal doctrines.

No, you just misunderstand key points and arguments regarding white racism vs. racism coming from people of color.

[#FF0000]

Have you been to America?

lol


From what I've gathered, there's this mindset that only whites can truly be "racist" and everyone else who uses racial epithets "are not being serious about it."

Nah, I mean if you talk to anyone this is just false, since most people have a very basic idea of racism that means "individual racial prejudice". The people who say some variation of "anti-white racism doesn't exist" are activisty university types who are using a different definition that says racism is "prejudice backed up with power", the latter of which non-white groups wouldn't have by virtue of being marginalized. Which is true. White people don't suffer from institutional or structural racism, even though any one can be mean to someone based on their skin.


Some people even say it's 'cute' to hear when non-whites racially hate other non-whites

lmao what

i think you're just dealing with some out-of-touch people if they don't think there's hate that goes on between groups that aren't white.


I think more people than we're willing to admit believe only white people can have racial prejudices, mainly because they're not willing to think, or are so brainwashed by the liberal media.

I don't think you've ever spoken to anyone about these issues, tbqh.

[Aleister Granger]

No, you just misunderstand key points and arguments regarding white racism vs. racism coming from people of color.

I think I didn't use the right words. This is what I meant: America is screwy when it comes to race and many people assume it's black and white because Americans are largely conditioned against thinking of it in class terms.
Non-white racists are on the right track (they at least realize a bourgeois preference for those of European decent) but go too far and adopt the same reactionary bullshit ideology that white racists do, such as "white people were created by Dr. Satan in a lab". But in America, there are too many unfortunate implications in the idea of a non-white racist, in pop culture. I'm very sure the common America knows everyone regardless of race has the capacity for racism, but I doubt that most think about it in terms of class.
Some are even offended that class should be a part of it, pointing to the co-exist of rich whites and rich non-whites, without considering the social conditions that work against rich non-whites.

Hmm...

Actually, thinking about it, it makes more sense that some non-whites would adopt racist beliefs when you factor in all social conditions working against them such as racists and fascists being condemned by pop culture but ultimately given free reign otherwise when non-whites do not submit to white culture, but I still want to think that the reason that most Americans are so obsessed with race is because they're actually trying to focus on class but can't quite make that leap, because bourgeois propaganda has left discussion of class as being "anti-American." So racism, since it's so intrinsically tied to American culture, is basically a masked discussion of class with reactionary elements. Most non-white racists reject atheism, I've noticed, as do most white racists.

I'm wondering if there are any deeper insights into this.

[#FF0000]

Discerning anti-white hate groups, pop culture denies they exist because only whites can be racist in pop culture. Americans love pop culture, and the basic idea is that non-whites can't be racist. So the more lackadaisical, don't-wanna-think-about-it types just go with it

This would be immediately shattered by actually talking to someone though, because virtually anyone will tell you that black people can be racist against white people. But people don't talk about it or mention it in media because, surprise surprise, it's not an issue white people deal with beyond maybe running into a Black Israelite preaching on the corner.

EDIT: Ah, you edited your post but I think what I got here is still relevant to the new content.

[Aleister Granger]

This would be immediately shattered by actually talking to someone though, because virtually anyone will tell you that black people can be racist against white people. But people don't talk about it or mention it in media because, surprise surprise, it's not an issue white people deal with beyond maybe running into a Black Israelite preaching on the corner.

EDIT: Ah, you edited your post but I think what I got here is still relevant to the new content.
Yeah, I know. I'm really off my game today for some reason. It must've been that...

Anyway, what you said is what I'm trying to say, poorly. Americans acknowledge all forms of racism (though some can't imagine other forms), but in America, where whites and blacks form the ethnic majority but blacks are not considered privileged or form any meaningful part of the ruling class, blacks being racist towards whites is treated more like "revenge racism" or "reverse racism" than just "racism." Not that it's not treated like racism, just that it's treated as if it's a different kind of racism than white racism. I suppose it is, but I also suppose that racism is fucking racism, end of discussion!

Like I said, I've met some ignorant-ass Americans so what I said might fall apart with the crowd you crash with, but...

[the debater]

http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/forum.php
Black supremacy dominates here

Yt's, read at your own discretion!

I've actually skimmed through this forum. It's about as crazy as Stormfront.

[the debater]

Stop. Please. For the love of god, please fucking stop.

Surely you don't believe that there are no racist blacks in the U.S. using this type of language? There are a lot of problems facing black Americans, but institutionalized racism is not necessarily one of those problems in the 21st century. More important issues to worry about when it comes to the black community in America are issues like profane rap culture, black on black crime rates, the instability of black families, drug issues, and similar others. Institutionalized segregation is no longer the issue it once was.

[#FF0000]

words

deep sigh

edit: wait a fucking minute


There are a lot of problems facing black Americans, but institutionalized racism is not necessarily one of those problems in the 21st century. More important issues to worry about when it comes to the black community in America are issues like profane rap culture, black on black crime rates, the instability of black families, drug issues, and similar others. Institutionalized segregation is no longer the issue it once was.

Haha hooooly shit.

Listen I'm gonna go return some library books and then I'm gonna come back to this. This is industrial grade bullshit.

[Aleister Granger]

Surely you don't believe that there are no racist blacks in the U.S. using this type of language? There are a lot of problems facing black Americans, but institutionalized racism is not necessarily one of those problems in the 21st century. More important issues to worry about when it comes to the black community in America are issues like profane rap culture, black on black crime rates, the instability of black families, drug issues, and similar others. Institutionalized segregation is no longer the issue it once was.

....

.....
.... Um......
........ .....................

[synthesis]

I think "the debater" has been spending a little too much time on whatever Stormfront's equivalent of OI is.

[tachosomoza]

I think Alester and the debater are conservatives who need to be exiled to the peanut gallery.

[Jimmie Higgins]

There are a lot of problems facing black Americans, but institutionalized racism is not necessarily one of those problems in the 21st century.More black people in prison system today than were held in slavery in 1850. No, no problem with institutionalized racism... just a huge chunk of one race institutionalized.


More important issues to worry about when it comes to the black community in America are issues like profane rap culture, black on black crime rates, the instability of black families, drug issues, and similar others. Institutionalized segregation is no longer the issue it once was.Schools have recently become just as segregated as they had been under Jim Crow. But segregation and segregation laws are no longer an official function of racism, now it is mainly through the massive repressive apparatus of the police and courts. Jim Crow was used to control the black laboring population in agricultural areas. Northern segregation helped divide the labor force (which was also true for white ethnic immigrants and Asians at various points) and to maintain and control a 2nd class labor pool. In the neoliberal era, "color-blind" racism or "the New Jim Crow" is based around maintaining surplus labor which means that as blue collar jobs moved or changed in urban areas and capitalism restructured, blacks (due to housing discrimination) couldn't follow the jobs to the suburbs as quickly and ate the brunt of neoliberal lean-ness.

Racial oppression in general, but specifically of black folks, is a huge weight around the neck of the entire working class.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Have you been to America? From what I've gathered, there's this mindset that only whites can truly be "racist" and everyone else who uses racial epithets "are not being serious about it." Some people even say it's 'cute' to hear when non-whites racially hate other non-whites, but 'wrong' when it's white on nonwhite.
That's what I've gathered. I think more people than we're willing to admit believe only white people can have racial prejudices, mainly because they're not willing to think, or are so brainwashed by the liberal media into accepting white liberal doctrines.

Then again this is America we're talking about. America is so, so, so backwards compared to other 1st world countries that I can't even laugh about it. Somedays I don't think America was an experiment but a joke.

Well I think the important distinction is if someone means "racist" in the sense of having bigoted ideas about anyone, or if they mean "racist" as in someone who supports a system of racial oppression. I don't think any black person can be racist in this second sense unless they are supporting jim-crow or harsher policing of black people. So now that I think about it, there can be "black racists" in that sense. But bigotry, or the individual attitudes of someone... yeah anyone can hate any group irrationally (or with some anecdotal reasons or whatnot).

So some extreeeemly PC people might believe there are no black bigots, but they just aren't familiar with US society in general then - people are so alienated and frustrated that you can find someone who hates just about anything if you look hard enough. There's someone right now who's probably cursing to himself saying, "God damn postal workers.... getting to wear SHORTS on the JOB! I don't get to do that. Those entitled moochers of knee tans!"

But really that's not the dominant sentiment about race in the US imo. In fact I think it's quite the opposite. Color-blindness is probably the biggest attitude about race currently among white people (and many blacks... though annecdotally, I feel like the economic crisis and demoralization about Obama may have changed that). Color-blind or post-racial ideas are what legally allow systemic racism (to proove racial profiling, you have to have evidence of a cop explicitly saying he's arresting people only because of his race), but as a general attitude it acts to just excuse and ignore racial inequalities in the US. This is why I think the distinction between someone having a racist attitude is different from systemic racism. Anyone can be a bigot, but hating people with mustaches doesn't aid the systemic oppression of Tom Selleck... because no such systemic oppression exists.

Think about it this way. If workers say: "I hate my boss" it doesn't matter. If a boss says: "I hate my workers" well the workers better start sending out resumes. Obviously not all white people are like "bosses" of oppressed people, but the point is that a black bigot is just some guy with a bad attitude, but white racism helps support a whole system with real power over the lives of black people.... which in turn increases the power of the ruling class and makes us all less powerful.

[the debater]

I think "the debater" has been spending a little too much time on whatever Stormfront's equivalent of OI is.

Okay my mistake. When I was thinking institutionalized racism, I was thinking about segregation, not about the prison-industrial complex. My mistake. I just minced terminologies.

[the debater]

I think Alester and the debater are conservatives who need to be exiled to the peanut gallery.

All the time and effort I put into that Refutations thread, and this is the thanks I get? :thumbdown: Has anyone here actually put more effort into online-debating than myself? I hate to go on the defensive, but apparently I have no choice but to go over my positions:

I am:

-pro gay marriage
-pro choice
-pro libertarian socialism
-pro separation of church and state
-pro taxing the rich, pro public education, pro union, etc, etc
-pro gun regulations, in the sense that I believe guns should be legal, but strictly regulated

Yes, I admit I'm not 100% liberal. But there's nothing wrong with that. If anything, it means that I'm a more complex thinker relatively speaking, no offense towards anyone. And once again, when I was referring to institutionalized racism, I was referring to enforced racial segregation in schools and restaurants.

[the debater]

deep sigh

edit: wait a fucking minute



Haha hooooly shit.

Listen I'm gonna go return some library books and then I'm gonna come back to this. This is industrial grade bullshit.

How much success have you had debating with white supremacists?

[synthesis]

All the time and effort I put into that Refutations thread, and this is the thanks I get? :thumbdown: Has anyone here actually put more effort into online-debating than myself? I hate to go on the defensive, but apparently I have no choice but to go over my positions:

I am:

-pro gay marriage
-pro choice
-pro libertarian socialism
-pro separation of church and state
-pro taxing the rich, pro public education, pro union, etc, etc
-pro gun regulations, in the sense that I believe guns should be legal, but strictly regulated

Yes, I admit I'm not 100% liberal. But there's nothing wrong with that. If anything, it means that I'm a more complex thinker relatively speaking, no offense towards anyone. And once again, when I was referring to institutionalized racism, I was referring to enforced racial segregation in schools and restaurants.

We're not "liberals." We're for the self-emancipation of the international working class and the abolition of exploitation and the bourgeoisie. Liberals are our enemies just as much as "conservatives" if they're promoting bourgeois politics.

Also - you're "a more complex thinker"? LOL

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/1/18183/1277819-gtfo.barker.jpg


How much success have you had debating with white supremacists?

I would wager that most people here don't see that as a very good barometer of the validity of one's politics.

[#FF0000]

Well this is going to be a project. One of those times where you honestly just don't know where to start, but I'm gonna do my best.


There are a lot of problems facing black Americans, but institutionalized racism is not necessarily one of those problems in the 21st century.

The United States is a country where black people are imprisoned at a disproportionate rate, where black men are stopped, questioned, and searched at a disproportionate rate, where black convicts receive, on a whole, harsher sentences than white convicts found guilty of the same crime, where black communities are specifically targeted by law enforcement when they're looking for drugs, despite the fact that white people and black people use, sell, and carry drugs at the same rate (that is to say: cops will find drugs wherever they want to look for them), where poverty is often more extreme and more concentrated in black communities, where schools are more segregated than they were when segregation was an actual law, where having a "black" name means being less likely to get a call back for a job even when that name is on an application or resume that shows one is more qualified than the applicant with a "white" name, and so on and so on and so on, and a country where black people are preyed upon by predatory lenders who take advantage of the fact that these groups have less access to educational resources than other groups. And so on, and so on, and so on.

This is all just touching on the issues of race and racism at play in America today, and it's stunning that someone that supposedly keeps themselves up to date on "current events" or "the issues" would be ignorant of these things.

I'm just slapping at keys right now to outline the situation to you here. I trust you'll be able to use google to explore these issues (and I seriously encourage you to), but if you want me to provide you the sources and studies then feel free to ask.


More important issues to worry about when it comes to the black community in America are issues like profane rap culture, the instability of black families, drug issues, and similar others. Institutionalized segregation is no longer the issue it once was.Now this is some laughable shit. Let me break it down "issue" by "issue".


More important issues to worry about when it comes to the black community in America are issues like profane rap cultureNow this is bullshit because "rap" and "rap culture" are no more profane than any other genre of music or culture in general. Sure, there's some questionable shit re: women and homosexuals in hip hop, but that's not by any means unique to hip hop, but hey, no one's gonna call a shitty middle-of-the-road radio jock-rock band like Nickelback on their overtly sexist and demeaning lyrics. People are quick to put down Biggie and ODB for their treatment of women (which is fair play, to be sure) but when's the last time you heard someone talking shit on John Lennon for beating Yoko Ono until she miscarried or Jimmy Paige for kidnapping and raping a 14 year old girl? If hip hop is so uniquely "profane" then what the fuck is up with "sex, drugs and rock and roll"?

The idea that "rap culture" is uniquely "profane" or regressive or whatever is just a modern rehash of the same old racist bullshit. The exact same, in fact. Go take a glance at what hand-wringing ivory tower white racists had to say about jazz musicians way back when and compare it to what our contemporary hand-wringing ivory-tower white racists have to say about rappers. It's the same damn thing.


black on black crime rates,Hey, just like the last issue, this is some old bullshit. Now, it's true that most of the victims of black criminals are black themselves, but that's not something unique. Most of the victims of white criminals are white themselves as well, but we don't hear any hand-wringing over "white on white" crime, do we now? Add to that the fact that violent crime has been on a downward spiral in the last decadeacross the country, including in the inner-cities, thanks in large part to all of the community organizations that have sprouted up to deal with crime before it happens.


the instability of black familiesAgain, this isn't a unique issue to the black community. Divorce has been on the rise for decades for every demographic, and we know that this puts a heavy burden on working class single parents who have to work and take care of children. If this is a "black" issue, then it's because that poverty is more concentrated in the black community.

And as for the drugs, that, again, isn't a uniquely "black" issue. Black and white people use drugs at the same rate.


Has anyone here actually put more effort into online-debating than myself? I hate to go on the defensive, but apparently I have no choice but to go over my positions:

I am:

-pro gay marriage
-pro choice
-pro libertarian socialism
-pro separation of church and state
-pro taxing the rich, pro public education, pro union, etc, etc
-pro gun regulations, in the sense that I believe guns should be legal, but strictly regulatedHoly shit you are a living, breathing parody of yourself.

[#FF0000]

I knew when this thread was on page one that it was gonna be a cringe riot but I never expected this.

[the debater]

The United States is a country where black people are imprisoned at a disproportionate rate, where black men are stopped, questioned, and searched at a disproportionate rate, where black convicts receive, on a whole, harsher sentences than white convicts found guilty of the same crime, where black communities are specifically targeted by law enforcement when they're looking for drugs, despite the fact that white people and black people use, sell, and carry drugs at the same rate (that is to say: cops will find drugs wherever they want to look for them), where poverty is often more extreme and more concentrated in black communities, where schools are more segregated than they were when segregation was an actual law, where having a "black" name means being less likely to get a call back for a job even when that name is on an application or resume that shows one is more qualified than the applicant with a "white" name, and so on and so on and so on, and a country where black people are preyed upon by predatory lenders who take advantage of the fact that these groups have less access to educational resources than other groups. And so on, and so on, and so on.

This is all just touching on the issues of race and racism at play in America today, and it's stunning that someone that supposedly keeps themselves up to date on "current events" or "the issues" would be ignorant of these things.

I'm just slapping at keys right now to outline the situation to you here. I trust you'll be able to use google to explore these issues (and I seriously encourage you to), but if you want me to provide you the sources and studies then feel free to ask.

I am familiar with these issues. Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion of the TV show, The Boondocks?


Now this is bullshit because "rap" and "rap culture" are no more profane than any other genre of music or culture in general. Sure, there's some questionable shit re: women and homosexuals in hip hop, but that's not by any means unique to hip hop, but hey, no one's gonna call a shitty middle-of-the-road radio jock-rock band like Nickelback on their overtly sexist and demeaning lyrics. People are quick to put down Biggie and ODB for their treatment of women (which is fair play, to be sure) but when's the last time you heard someone talking shit on John Lennon for beating Yoko Ono until she miscarried or Jimmy Paige for kidnapping and raping a 14 year old girl? If hip hop is so uniquely "profane" then what the fuck is up with "sex, drugs and rock and roll"?

I did not mean to imply that profane music was only limited to black communities, just that it was a major problem for the black community regardless of whether it was a problem for other racial communities as well. We need to stress the importance of getting a good education in the black community, to the level of where education is stressed in Asian-American communities. This has already happened to a certain extent with African immigrants, especially I believe from Nigeria. Also, remember how Huey Freeman would always disapprove of Thugnificent's actions in Boondocks? We need to get more black youth thinking like Huey Freeman does.




Again, this isn't a unique issue to the black community. Divorce has been on the rise for decades for every demographic, and we know that this puts a heavy burden on working class single parents who have to work and take care of children. If this is a "black" issue, then it's because that poverty is more concentrated in the black community.

Family instability I think has been more significant for blacks, more so than whites. We need to tackle the issues of poverty and family instability at the same time, if possible.


Holy shit you are a living, breathing parody of yourself.

Chill out.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

I think "the debater" has been spending a little too much time on whatever Scumfront's equivalent of OI is.

Fixed that for you ;)



How much success have you had debating with white supremacists?

I have, and they're just too close-minded and intolerant. They don't want to change their views. Most are just intolerant assholes, and some are traumatized after having a few bad experiences with non-whites. Racism is the product of xenophobia, paranoia, cynicism, bigotry, and hate. Sure they promote "oh yeah white pride but not racist or neo-nazi" but then they turn around saying "oh screw n****rs and jews, and Hitler should have won WW2".

[the debater]

I would wager that most people here don't see that as a very good barometer of the validity of one's politics.

Why the hell not? So if I debate and try to argue against white supremacy and white nationalism, that still doesn't mean that I'm an anti-racist? :confused:

[synthesis]

Why the hell not? So if I debate and try to argue against white supremacy and white nationalism, that still doesn't mean that I'm an anti-racist? :confused:

Honestly, it seems that in "debating against white supremacy and white nationalism" you've conceded many points to them that you shouldn't have. It's hard for me to separate your comments in this thread and the fact that you're backing up your argument with lines from The Boondocks from this line of argument you took in a different thread a little while ago:


Although I haven't had a lot of black friends, (unless Ace High counts, assuming he's black), I still find it hard to believe that there are black people out there who actually get offended by something so trivial.

[#FF0000]

I am familiar with these issues. Just out of curiosity, what is your opinion of the TV show, The Boondocks?

good stuff i think.


I did not mean to imply that profane music was only limited to black communities, just that it was a major problem for the black community regardless of whether it was a problem for other racial communities as well.

It's not a problem for anyone because music doesn't have to be "conscious" or political or uplifting or positive. There's been plenty of "sex drugs and rock and roll" but for some reason when it's hip hop, there's a moral panic. If there's an issue, it is not an issue particular to, or especially for black communities.


We need to stress the importance of getting a good education in the black community, to the level of where education is stressed in Asian-American communities.

Except that "model minority" stereotype is bullshit too -- typically Asian immigrants that are successful in America are immigrants who came here with wealth, with an education. There is limited to no social mobility for poor Asian immigrants.

[Fakeblock]

How much success have you had debating with white supremacists?

If you've succeeded in that endeavour I think it's time to reevaluate your politics.


Anyway, I think that the reason that a lot of people (me included) view white supremacist ideology as 'worse' than black supremacism is that white supremacists, like men's rights advocates, actually reinforce existing oppressive relations, whereas black supremacists are just a bunch of guys who are wrong and say silly things. Having wrong beliefs is of course regrettable, but in the greater scheme of things it's inconsequential. Golden Dawn fascists terrorising immigrants in the streets while still enjoying legitimacy and parliamentary seats, or white closet-racists murdering young, black men for 'looking like thugs' and getting away with it are whole nother stories. When you boil racism down to just an issue of hate (individual opinions) you miss the whole point of why racism should be combatted.

I've only skimmed the thread so apologies if I'm just parroting other users here.

[Yuppie Grinder]

How much success have you had debating with white supremacists?

damn bruh is yr name I'm Hella Dumb cuz yr Hella Dumb bruh wow

[Aleister Granger]

Holy shit, the debater, and I thought my daily-drunk-arse comments dug me into a hole.

[RedGuevara]

I agree. I think white racist groups need to be panned out and eradicated but any nationalists group that judges based on race should not be given any credibility. They're along the same thought line as any white racist group. I understand the need to help raise the quality of life for all minorities in the world but no one should ever judge based on race. These groups that claim nationalism for one race take the international struggle two steps backwards and no one benefits. As Marxist, we should never sympathize with nationalists groups of any kind.

[G4b3n]

I for one think its a miracle that there has not been more radical anti-white movements in the west. Like many have already said, it is not desirable but it is also not something that we ought to be concerned about. What we ought to be concerned about is racism that is in support of ruling class interests, which is all other types of racism quite frankly.

[Aleister Granger]

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/AssataShakur.org
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Model_Minority

They do nothing to help the revolutionary cause if all they do is hate... Hate is one of the things that left our mighty crimson arses in this situation. :(

*Reads deeper* Sweet mother of GOD!

I understand that the African man is repressed over something genetic, a trait that humans share, and that the exploiters will capitalize on this repression. But this is not the right kind of mindset! If all you want is to brutally skullfuck your oppressor, then I don't know what I can say to you but...
The only reason I call for liberation is for peace amongst all humans. If all we're going to do is turn around and lynch white people for no other good reason than being white (or, apparently, Asian, Hispanic, Arabic, and mixed-race) then fuck it, it's not worth genocide!

Oh, and what was that bullshit I was saying in a drunk fervor about USican not knowing about non-white racists?

* mod break, image macro removed, verbal warning* - psycho

[the debater]

damn bruh is yr name I'm Hella Dumb cuz yr Hella Dumb bruh wow

You need to have proper grammar comrade. Otherwise I may be forced to give you negative rep, if possible.

[the debater]

Holy shit, the debater, and I thought my daily-drunk-arse comments dug me into a hole.

Who says I was drunk!? :ohmy: I've never been drunk ever.

[the debater]

If you've succeeded in that endeavour I think it's time to reevaluate your politics.


Anyway, I think that the reason that a lot of people (me included) view white supremacist ideology as 'worse' than black supremacism is that white supremacists, like men's rights advocates, actually reinforce existing oppressive relations, whereas black supremacists are just a bunch of guys who are wrong and say silly things. Having wrong beliefs is of course regrettable, but in the greater scheme of things it's inconsequential. Golden Dawn fascists terrorising immigrants in the streets while still enjoying legitimacy and parliamentary seats, or white closet-racists murdering young, black men for 'looking like thugs' and getting away with it are whole nother stories. When you boil racism down to just an issue of hate (individual opinions) you miss the whole point of why racism should be combatted.

I've only skimmed the thread so apologies if I'm just parroting other users here.

If you're basically trying to say that white supremacists are a bigger threat than black power types, then I agree with you. My main point I'm trying to make is that there are racist black people out there, and that the white race isn't the only race capable of racism.

If I've succeeded in the endeavor of debating with white supremacists, why the heck would I re-evaluate my politics?

[the debater]

Honestly, it seems that in "debating against white supremacy and white nationalism" you've conceded many points to them that you shouldn't have.

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. If anything, they've had to concede points to me.

Are you referring to the fact that I've "conceded" meaningless facts such as West Virginia having a low crime rate, and Scandinavians and Eastern Europeans being over-represented among strongman competitors? These are facts that are true, but still meaningless in pertaining to white supremacy.

[synthesis]

If all we're going to do is turn around and lynch white people for no other good reason than being white

Seriously?

[synthesis]

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. If anything, they've had to concede points to me.

Are you referring to the fact that I've "conceded" meaningless facts such as West Virginia having a low crime rate, and Scandinavians and Eastern Europeans being over-represented among strongman competitors? These are facts that are true, but still meaningless in pertaining to white supremacy.

For one thing, all your conservative talking points ("profane rap music," "single-parent families," "drug abuse") about the supposed deficiencies of "black culture."

[#FF0000]

The only reason I call for liberation is for peace amongst all humans. If all we're going to do is turn around and lynch white people for no other good reason than being white (or, apparently, Asian, Hispanic, Arabic, and mixed-race) then fuck it, it's not worth genocide!

yo you realize you are dealing with isolated and thoroughly powerless groups when you talk about folks like the NBPP and these (lol) internet forums, right?

[Rusty Shackleford]

Lol, i stood on a line with some Brown Berets, last time i checked, i wasnt threatened or assaulted.

[bcbm]

We need to stress the importance of getting a good education in the black community, to the level of where education is stressed in Asian-American communities.

because if they just tried harder they would learn more, there isn't an issue like a huge defunding of schools, etc going on here.


Family instability I think has been more significant for blacks, more so than whites. We need to tackle the issues of poverty and family instability at the same time, if possible.

modern family 'instability' is a direct result of the de-industrialization that hit america in the 70s and 80s. when the jobs go so do families.


My main point I'm trying to make is that there are racist black people out there, and that the white race isn't the only race capable of racism.

great, who cares?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

1. This thread is garbage.
2. Racism is liberal PC politesse for white supremacy. In instances where there are subjectively "racist" ideas expressed by POC, indigenous peoples, etc., we need to trace it back to its roots in the white supremacist order.
3. Call me when anti-white hate groups have a Prison Industrial Complex.
4. "RationalWiki" is like a first year university PoliSci course. Citing it should warrant never getting asked on a date ever again.

[Le Socialiste]

You need to have proper grammar comrade. Otherwise I may be forced to give you negative rep, if possible.

Oh ffs...

I knew I shouldn't have clicked on this thread. Holy shit.

I'll come back when I have more time - and I'm coming for you, Debater.

[DasFapital]

When I was in elementary school a black kid called me a stupid white man. That is totally on the same level of injustice as mass incarceration right?

[Marshal of the People]

I personally think that the white supremacists and the anti-white supremacists and all supremacists are as bad as each other (because I hate racism and discrimination in all shapes and forms) though I can actually sympathise with the black supremacist (who I don't see as a threat and just feel sorry for them because they are usually driven to this by discrimination) in America because they have been persecuted for hundreds of years by the white majority and I feel very sorry for them just like how the Aboriginals were and still are being treated here in Australia.

EDIT: I think that the black supremacist groups are not nearly as bad as the white supremacist groups because they want liberation, freedom and equality for their people unlike the oppression and genocide wanted by the white supremacists. Though I am not fond of nationalism or racism at all so that is why I don't really like any supremacist groups (though I can sympathise with the black supremacists and some of their goals e.g. freedom from discrimination and oppression etc.)

And here is a little question to anyone who can answer this; Are black supremascist groups actually racist because I just feel that they are sick of being discriminated against and I genuinely feel sorry for them?

[tachosomoza]

And here is a little question to anyone who can answer this; Are black supremascist groups actually racist because I just feel that they are sick of being discriminated against and I genuinely feel sorry for them?

Groups like the Nation of Islam believe that white people are the result of an experiment by a mad scientist and that the African peoples are the true rulers and inheritors of the Earth, by decree of God. It's a really bizarre and sad ideology that is a unique testament to how oppression warps the minds of a people. Many of their members have been in prison, so you stack incarceration on top of it and voila, you have a member of a black supremacist, nationalist cult. Some parts of their program are vaguely socialist (free education, exemption from taxation for black workers), but most are nationalist and separationist.

http://www.noi.org/muslim-program/


1. We want freedom. We want a full and complete freedom.


2. We want justice. Equal justice under the law. We want justice applied equally to all, regardless of creed or class or color.

3. We want equality of opportunity. We want equal membership in society with the best in civilized society.

4. We want our people in America whose parents or grandparents were descendants from slaves, to be allowed to establish a separate state or territory of their own–either on this continent or elsewhere. We believe that our former slave masters are obligated to provide such land and that the area must be fertile and minerally rich. We believe that our former slave masters are obligated to maintain and supply our needs in this separate territory for the next 20 to 25 years–until we are able to produce and supply our own needs.

Since we cannot get along with them in peace and equality, after giving them 400 years of our sweat and blood and receiving in return some of the worst treatment human beings have ever experienced, we believe our contributions to this land and the suffering forced upon us by white America, justifies our demand for complete separation in a state or territory of our own.


5. We want freedom for all Believers of Islam now held in federal prisons. We want freedom for all black men and women now under death sentence in innumerable prisons in the North as well as the South. We want every black man and woman to have the freedom to accept or reject being separated from the slave master’s children and establish a land of their own.


We know that the above plan for the solution of the black and white conflict is the best and only answer to the problem between two people.

6. We want an immediate end to the police brutality and mob attacks against the so-called Negro throughout the United States. We believe that the Federal government should intercede to see that black men and women tried in white courts receive justice in accordance with the laws of the land–or allow us to build a new nation for ourselves, dedicated to justice, freedom and liberty.


7. As long as we are not allowed to establish a state or territory of our own, we demand not only equal justice under the laws of the United States, but equal employment opportunities–NOW!
We do not believe that after 400 years of free or nearly free labor, sweat and blood, which has helped America become rich and powerful, so many thousands of black people should have to subsist on relief or charity or live in poor houses.


8. We want the government of the United States to exempt our people from ALL taxation as long as we are deprived of equal justice under the laws of the land.


9. We want equal education–but separate schools up to 16 for boys and 18 for girls on the condition that the girls be sent to women’s colleges and universities. We want all black children educated, taught and trained by their own teachers. Under such schooling system we believe we will make a better nation of people. The United States government should provide, free, all necessary text books and equipment, schools and college buildings. The Muslim teachers shall be left free to teach and train their people in the way of righteousness, decency and self respect.


10. We believe that intermarriage or race mixing should be prohibited. We want the religion of Islam taught without hindrance or suppression.

[Rusty Shackleford]

And not all people who are in NOI are strict in their fulfilling guidelines. i mean seriously.


lets not forget though that the aztecs were colonizers as was the mexican government. this continent has a strange history, but im not going to start saying mexicans dont have a right to resit bullshit laws or that aztec culture should not be celebrated.

[tachosomoza]

And not all people who are in NOI are strict in their fulfilling guidelines. i mean seriously.



They have a record of using violence to ensure that their members tow the party line, so to speak. Malcolm X left their organization after making Hajj and started his own organization, and as a result they had him murdered. The NOI does a lot of good work in communities of color, Louis Farrakhan is especially good at visiting countries such as Grenada, Barbados, and other Caribbean islands populated by the descendents of Africans to build solidarity, but their belief system and how they view all people of European descent as being less than human and descendants of grafted Yacubian devils is very shitty. Still, their belief system is the direct result of oppression at the hands of extremely cruel whites and their power structure.

[Marshal of the People]

Groups like the Nation of Islam believe that white people are the result of an experiment by a mad scientist and that the African peoples are the true rulers and inheritors of the Earth, by decree of God. It's a really bizarre and sad ideology that is a unique testament to how oppression warps the minds of a people. Many of their members have been in prison, so you stack incarceration on top of it and voila, you have a member of a black supremacist, nationalist cult. Some parts of their program are vaguely socialist (free education, exemption from taxation for black workers), but most are nationalist and separationist.



Thanks that answered my question.

[Yuppie Grinder]

You need to have proper grammar comrade. Otherwise I may be forced to give you negative rep, if possible.

oh shit b
neg rep
grammar
too much 4 me 2 handle

[Bolshevik Sickle]

For those that say "Well they don't really have any power or big numbers right now, so don't worry about them.", well I'm sure during the 1930s the Jews in Germany thought the Brown Shirts weren't too much of a big deal, right? Think about it.

Now you can say "Well these groups have a reason to be angry", and I certainly agree. However, as I mentioned before, there is always bad apples in each group who have sinister intentions.

[bcbm]

For those that say "Well they don't really have any power or big numbers right now, so don't worry about them.", well I'm sure during the 1930s the Jews in Germany thought the Brown Shirts weren't too much of a big deal, right? Think about it.

uh no i'm pretty sure they were worried by the growing harassment and violence directed at them that more and more people seemed to be lining up behind. what an asinine comparison.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

uh no i'm pretty sure they were worried by the growing harassment and violence directed at them

By them do you mean the Jews, or the Black Panthers?

[bcbm]

the jews in 1930s germany, obviously.

[human strike]

Am I the only one who thinks anti-white racism isn't a thing or even possible in the United States?

[Klaatu]

Fucking ridiculous. I fail to understand how one can be judged good-or-bad, simply by their ethnic background, or the color of their skin.
If anything, black, brown, white, etc should unite against The Rich Ruling Class.

[synthesis]

Am I the only one who thinks anti-white racism isn't a thing or even possible in the United States?

How is it possible anywhere else? I'm assuming "anti-white racism" means "discriminated against just for being white," not for other factors like being white and Hispanic or Muslim or whatever.

I mean, I know British media often discusses the supposed persecution of white farmers in South Africa and Zimbabwe, but would you really call that "racism"? Or am I misunderstanding your post? (Also not to say that we don't have an equivalent of that kind of shit here, just trying to anticipate what your response might be.)

[human strike]

How is it possible anywhere else? I'm assuming "anti-white racism" means "discriminated against just for being white," not for other factors like being white and Hispanic or Muslim or whatever.

I mean, I know British media often discusses the supposed persecution of white farmers in South Africa and Zimbabwe, but would you really call that "racism"? Or am I misunderstanding your post? (Also not to say that we don't have an equivalent of that kind of shit here, just trying to anticipate what your response might be.)

How is it possible anywhere? I really have no idea and I generally assume that it isn't, but that is pretty much just an assumption on my part so that's why I added 'in the United States.'

[human strike]

You tell me.

Every group, ethnicity or people has been oppressed by another at some point. Personally, I don't want to see the persecution or oppression of any group by anybody.

Holding a prejudice is not the same as oppressing someone. Are you going to claim that the New Black Panthers are oppressing white people? Because you see, there's this thing called white supremacy, maybe you've heard of it...? Racism isn't people being mean to other people based on the colour of their skin, it's systematic oppression and exploitation. That is why I say reverse racism isn't a thing and isn't possible.

EDIT: So the post I replied to was deleted?

[Jimmie Higgins]

For those that say "Well they don't really have any power or big numbers right now, so don't worry about them.", well I'm sure during the 1930s the Jews in Germany thought the Brown Shirts weren't too much of a big deal, right? Think about it.This analogy takes for granted that social relationships are neutral in capitlaist states, and reduces structrual issues to just beefs between various equal groups: Palistinians hate Israel, and Israelis hate Palistinians -- they're both equal, eh? No, only one has the actual power and force in the situation.

White supremacists are not the same as the worst anti-white group of Black seperatists or extreeme nationalists, because AT WORST, such a group could only be capable of isolated acts of terror that impact induviduals. This would not result in the mass incarceration of white people, the mass disenfrancizement of white people, underfunding of white schools, disproportionate lay-offs and unemployement for white workers, all backed up by the ruling class. On the other hand, white supremacy seeks to bolster the EXISTING systemic oppression and "keep people in their place".


Now you can say "Well these groups have a reason to be angry", and I certainly agree. However, as I mentioned before, there is always bad apples in each group who have sinister intentions.It's not about "oh people have a reason to be angry" because tea party people have reasons to be angry, reactionary Germans had reasons to be angry after WWI, etc. I'm not concered with the moral aspects of this. Why this is important is because of locating the source of this tendancy and sentiment causing organizations like this. If you mean by "every group has bad apples" that every racial group has sinister people, then I think this is, again, treating things abstractly. Anti-white sentiment in US society comes not form just bigotry for the sake of it; the reason this becomes a common sentiment is because of the ongoing systemic racism and racial inequalities in society which is sometimes attributed to all white people resulting in these anti-white views. So if you want to fight this sentiment, you can not fight these views because it doesn't solve the source of it: white supremacy/systematic oppression. So to try and reduce this sentiment the focus must be on fighting white-supremacy and racial inequality. Anti-black groups on the other hand are not reacting to oppression against them, but are trying to strengthen existing oppression - so confronting them and trying to make them unable to expand or support an inequal state of affairs is actually part of taking on systemic racism.

[Aoibh]

I agree completely. Hate is hate no matter who it comes from. However, at the moment the whites in the USA hold more power and as a result dealing with anti- non- white racism is more urgent. Anti- white racism also needs to be condemned.

[RedBen]

I've actually skimmed through this forum. It's about as crazy as Stormfront.
i went through some of the forums, i didn't get that at all, maybe i missed those threads.

[the debater]

i went through some of the forums, i didn't get that at all, maybe i missed those threads.

Here's one example: http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/open-forum/52554-white-women.html

Read it carefully.

[RedHal]

Here's one example: http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/open-forum/52554-white-women.html

Read it carefully.

the OP in that thread is probably a troll or some white cuckhold. Everyone who replied disagreed.

Who fears these black surpremacists, where are they going to get the economic and political support to realize their fantasies? Only the most paranoid white racists pay them any attention.

[RedBen]

the OP in that thread is probably a troll or some white cuckhold. Everyone who replied disagreed.

Who fears these black surpremacists, where are they going to get the economic and political support to realize their fantasies? Only the most paranoid white racists pay them any attention.
the replies disagreed with race mixing with whites, not disagreed with the OP's racism. still, however reactionary those messages are, black power and white are very different. both wrong, but at least i can understand why some black people would be so distrustful. personally, i'm not anti-white. i'm not anti any race.

[Comrade Chernov]

Anti-white racism doesn't exist, sorry folks. Anti-white "racism" is the vented frustrations of the oppressed towards their oppressor. It'll disappear when the revolution overthrows the current institutions in place, for then there won't be an institution to oppress them.

[#FF0000]

Anti-white racism doesn't exist, sorry folks. Anti-white "racism" is the vented frustrations of the oppressed towards their oppressor. It'll disappear when the revolution overthrows the current institutions in place, for then there won't be an institution to oppress them.

Nah I personally don't think this is a good way of going about it, to be honest. Like yeah, anti-white racism doesn't exist in the sense that white dudes, being the "default" in our society, don't face any sort of structural and systemic racism.

But to go on and say "well yeah that guy can be a dick to that guy because he is oppressed and is venting frustration because of oppression" is a shitty and counterproductive attitude. Yeah, sure, as an individual, any given white guy is most likely better off as a white guy than he would be if he were black, but someone shouldn't have to put up with abuse for a system they are, on their own, powerless to control. On the flip side, white folks need to understand that people who ain't white have to deal with a whole lot of extra shit just because they aren't white. There has to be understanding and solidarity. And that is why prejudice against white people is dangerous -- not because it harms "white people" as a group, but because it stands as a barrier to solidarity between working class people.

Philadelphia is one huge fucking shining example of this.

[Comrade Chernov]

The oppressor tormenting people of color is a LOT more important to deal with than the oppressed trying to defend themselves against the slur of hatred slung at them. It's as simple as that.

[#FF0000]

The oppressor tormenting people of color is a LOT more important to deal with than the oppressed trying to defend themselves against the slur of hatred slung at them. It's as simple as that.

well yeah obviously in the big picture, but black working class people identifying white working class people as the "oppressors" is as much a barrier to solidarity among the working class as white working class people identifying non-white working class people as enemies.

[Blake's Baby]

By 'as much a barrier to solidarity', do you mean that in the cases of the individuals with these views, it's as much of a barrier, or do you mean that in the working class as a whole, it's as much of a barrier?

The first I absolutely agree with; the second, I'm not so sure. Seems like the numbers game stacks up with the 'white workers who regard black workers as enemies' being a much larger component of the equation than 'black workers who regard white workers as enemies'.

Or I could be completely wrong about that.

[#FF0000]

The first I absolutely agree with; the second, I'm not so sure. Seems like the numbers game stacks up with the 'white workers who regard black workers as enemies' being a much larger component of the equation than 'black workers who regard white workers as enemies'.

Yeah, big picture I think you're most likely right -- but I'm thinking of the situation in my area(s) e.g. Philadelphia where there's some real depressing/difficult and multifaceted tension between white workers, black workers, immigrant workers, etc and I don't know how we should deal with that.

I don't disagree with these analyses of racism in the US. I think I have a problem with the (lack of) specific solutions.

[Klaatu]

Fucking ridiculous. I fail to understand how one can be judged good-or-bad, simply by their ethnic background, or the color of their skin.
If anything, black, brown, white, etc should unite against The Rich Ruling Class.

Quoting myself here. I will add that it is possible that the ruling class has a vested interest in dividing us, the working class, so they can retain their hold on power. For example, consider Wayne LaPierre, who claims that "Obama is going to take away all of our guns." Simple-minded people fall for this crap every day. There are many ways the Capitalist class tries to fool us with propaganda, such as this mistaken notion that "raising the minimum wage will cause unemployment" (which is complete balderdash) So they manage to convince some voters to vote against their own best interests! WTF???

[Remus Bleys]

Im fucking sick and tired of liberals with ultra left rhetoric thinking they are all that.

Quoting myself here.
There is a reason no one paid attention. What the fuck do you mean "Rich'? That has nothing to do with being a ruling class or not. Many Bourgeoisie were richer than aristocrats.

I will add that it is possible that the ruling class has a vested interest in dividing us, the working class, so they can retain their hold on power. No shit. However, these divisions have a real world effect. The way "races" are divided is economic, which is unfortunately very real. Y
Post-racialism is objectively speaking, racist.

For example, consider Wayne LaPierre, who claims that "Obama is going to take away all of our guns." Simple-minded people fall for this crap every day. Unlike liberals like you, your so smart parading Obamacare around.

There are many ways the Capitalist class tries to fool us with propaganda, such as this mistaken notion that "raising the minimum wage will cause unemployment" (which is complete balderdash)Do you honestly believe you are "educating" anyone here.

So they manage to convince some voters to vote against their own best interests! WTF??? :laugh::laugh::laugh: As compared to "voting in your best interest"?


Wake up, people - it's all a big scam!!! :rolleyes:

WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!!1111!

You buying into the notion that race has no sociological meaning is condemnable, insane, moronic. The internet cannot possibly convey the immense hatred I have for people like you.


Klaatu, this forum isn't for you. Maybe you should just stay on "I Acknowledge Class Warfare Exists."

[Klaatu]

There is a reason no one paid attention. What the fuck do you mean "Rich'? That has nothing to do with being a ruling class or not. Many Bourgeoisie were richer than aristocrats.

If you're from DENMARK, you HAVE NO CLUE of what things are like here in the USA, do you.



The way "races" are divided is economic, which is unfortunately very real.


Races are not "divided" BECAUSE of economics, that is just a symptom. There are other reasons.



Post-racialism is objectively speaking, racist.


That makes no sense.



Unlike liberals like you, your so smart parading Obamacare around.


WTF does this have to do with "Obamacare?"



Do you honestly believe you are "educating" anyone here.


Doesn't look like you are either



Quote:
So they manage to convince some voters to vote against their own best interests! WTF???
As compared to "voting in your best interest"?




You buying into the notion that race has no sociological meaning is condemnable, insane, moronic.

How is it that I am "buying into the notion?" Explain this for us.

Lastly, do not call me a "liberal."

[Remus Bleys]

If you're from DENMARK, you HAVE NO CLUE of what things are like here in the USA, do you.
Yes. Foreigners don't have the foggiest clue on what life is like in other countries.
And that doesn't exactly respond to " There is a reason no one paid attention. What the fuck do you mean "Rich'? That has nothing to do with being a ruling class or not. Many Bourgeoisie were richer than aristocrats. "




Races are not "divided" BECAUSE of economics, that is just a symptom. There are other reasons.wtf wtf wtf wtf
So economics didn't cause something? Economics is a symptom? wtf are you even doing here?
Lern2marx




That makes no sense.To believe that races no longer matter is to deny institutional racism. To deny institutional racism means to not fight it. To not fight it means to allow it to continue. To allow institutional racism to continue is objectively racist. Post-racialism, the belief that race no longer matters, is objectively speaking, racist.




WTF does this have to do with "Obamacare?"You fall for crap like Obamacare helping people.




Doesn't look like you are either
I never claimed to be anything other than a bloodthirsty asshole.




How is it that I am "buying into the notion?" Explain this for us. You believe that race is not important, and that minorities should just stop fighting for minority rights. You buy into post racialism.

I'll say this again, you obviously HAVE NO CLUE of what life is like here in the USA. The only other country I have ever been in was Canada for like half a day. I'm born and bred Ohio. I have Denmark listed as my country as an inside joke.
I thought putting "apparently" would be a tip-off.

Lastly, do not call me a "liberal."
Stop being liberal.

[Klaatu]

You believe that race is not important, and that minorities should just stop fighting for minority rights. You buy into post racialism.
Man did you get the wrong idea of what I meant!

I will fill you in on a bit of U.S. history. There has been a horrible past in this country since it's creation, and even before.

The economic setbacks that black people have endured in this country are due to racism, that is true, but there are
actually many more WHITE people in this country that are poor (by actual numbers) than black. And it irks me when
some of the right-wing politicians try to single out and disparage black people for "being lazy" etc (such dialogue still does happen;
that's why I did not know what you meant by "post-racialism")

I point out that it is the ruling class that is responsible for dividing the people of this country, both white AND black!!!

I don't get where I have said "racism no longer exists..." How did you possibly deduce THAT?

[Remus Bleys]

I will fill you in on a bit of U.S. history. There has been a horrible past in this country since it's creation, and even before.
Are you... patronizing me?


The economic setbacks that black people have endured in this country are due to racism, that is true, but there are
actually many more WHITE people in this country that are poor (by actual numbers) than black. How bout proportions?


And it irks me when
some of the right-wing politicians implying there are left wing politicians.


try to disparage black people for "being lazy" etc (yes this still happens; that's why I
did not know what you meant by "post-racialism")
This was not what your post conveyed, you're post conveyed that you believe that the difference between the white working class and the black working class was simply propaganda. Then, you say dumb shit like "The economic is a symptom" or whatever.



I point out that it is the ruling class that is responsible for dividing the people of this country, both white AND black!!! You didn't actually. Your conclusion, this is right, your reasoning for it being the case (purely propaganda, economic being only a part) is wrong.


I don't get where I have said "racism no longer exists..." How did you possibly deduce THAT?
Before I go any further, what is your stance on affirmative action and why.

[Klaatu]

This was not what your post conveyed, you're post conveyed that you believe that the difference between the white working class and the black working class was simply propaganda.
The ruling class (at least the talking heads in the media do this) you need to listen and read more; there is a lot of propaganda.
And it is dangerous.



You didn't actually. Your conclusion, this is right, your reasoning for it being the case (purely propaganda, economic being only a part) is wrong.
Not JUST ONLY propaganda; of course not!



Before I go any further, what is your stance on affirmative action and why.
I do not take a position on this.

[Remus Bleys]

The ruling class (at least the talking heads in the media do this) you need to listen and read more; there is a lot of propaganda.
And it is dangerous.
Irrelevant.


Not JUST ONLY propaganda; of course not!BUT MOSTLY, OF COURSE!


I do not take a position on this.
why not

[Klaatu]

Irrelevant.
Not irrelevant!!!


BUT MOSTLY, OF COURSE!

Do not put words in my mouth.

This is getting ridiculous


why not
For the same reason I do not take a position on abortion, for the same reason I do not take a position on a lot of things.

People do not HAVE TO take positions on every issue, you know?

[Remus Bleys]

Not irrelevant!!!

Do not put words in my mouth.

This is getting ridiculous

For the same reason I do not take a position on abortion, for the same reason I do not take a position on a lot of things.

People do not HAVE TO take positions on every issue, you know?
Okay, everyone can see I tried.

[BUSHCHENEY2016]

I point out that it is the ruling class that is responsible for dividing the people of this country, both white AND black!!!

But it is not solely the ruling class that it is responsible. As shameful as it is, the white working class has historically taken an active role defending and perpetuating white supremacy for its own benefit.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

The oppressor tormenting people of color is a LOT more important to deal with than the oppressed trying to defend themselves against the slur of hatred slung at them. It's as simple as that.

Agreed. Being called the N-Word (or any racial slur for that matter) has many more negative connotations than being called "cracker" or "honkey". The N-word refers to a time when blacks were treated less than human and taught to hate themselves. It doesn't compare to simple elementary slurs like cracker (which was meant for slave owners).

[Flying Purple People Eater]

If you're from DENMARK, you HAVE NO CLUE of what things are like here in the USA, do you.

As someone who has never set foot in America and knows a lot about it's regional demographics and politics, I beg to differ.

[Klaatu]

Okay, everyone can see I tried.

You "tried?" Tried to do what? Educate me? Sorry, comrade, but I do think that you yourself may be the victim of the very propaganda I have been talking about. And I am not sure you have understood my point at all. So I will repeat it: We, the working class, are subjugated and exploited by the ruling class... and they divide us by means of propaganda. Consider Fox News and radio-hate-talking heads such as Glenn Beck, Mike Savage, and Rush Limbaugh, not to mention the ultra-right wing (so-called) "Christian" hate-groups out there... they hate gays, Jews, blacks, Muslims, immigrants, you-name-it... Don't you disagree?

[Remus Bleys]

comrade
I'm not your comrade.


but I do think that you yourself may be the victim of the very propaganda I have been talking about
How? What? What? What propaganda do you think I have fallen for?

. And I am not sure you have understood my point at all. So I will repeat it: We, the working class, are subjugated and exploited by the ruling class... and they divide us by means of propaganda.
No. to say that racism is solely spread by propaganda is idiotic
Maybe you should read this guy, his name is Karl Marx.

Consider Fox News and radio-hate-talking heads such as Glenn Beck, Mike Savage, and Rush Limbaugh, not to mention the ultra-right wing (so-called) "Christian" hate-groups out there... they hate gays, Jews, blacks, immigrants, you-name-it... Don't you disagree?
What the fuck?
Look, the liberal just references how dumb conservatives are! HOW FUCKING RADICAL!!!!!!!111111111!!!!!!!!!

[xxxxxx666666]

If I recall Karl Marx's view on racism, it was that Blacks (and others) became the "lower class" because it better serves the capitalist interests, hence, racism was the consequence of historical slavery to better serve the capitalist.

What's your view exactly, Remus Bleys?

[Remus Bleys]

If I recall Karl Marx's view on racism, it was that Blacks (and others) became the "lower class" because it better serves the capitalist interests, hence, racism was the consequence of historical slavery to better serve the capitalist.

What's your view exactly, Remus Bleys?
Minority groups aren't a separate class. However, they are an oppressed group and our in the lower strata most certainly.
A Black bourgeois is lower in status than a White Bourgeois, but a White Proletariat is infinitely more exploited than a Black Bourgeois.

Racism happens for various reasons. In America at least, it was created to justify slavery, and later on it was created in order to give lower wages to the proletariat, (I cant be real nuanced cuz im outta time) but leads to the white proletariat looking for a scapegoat.

[Klaatu]

I'm not your comrade.


How? What? What? What propaganda do you think I have fallen for?

No. to say that racism is solely spread by propaganda is idiotic
Maybe you should read this guy, his name is Karl Marx.
[B]
What the fuck?
Look, the liberal just references how dumb conservatives are! HOW FUCKING RADICAL!!!!!!!111111111!!!!!!!!!

Your profile says you are just 16 years old. You have a lot to learn, grasshopper. As you grow up, you will (hopefully) learn, because you just don't get how things work, do you. For one thing, try to be more civil to others.

[Klaatu]

This discussion is veering off-topic. Perhaps a new thread needs to be started:

Does media propaganda influence and misinform public opinion? (in the "Learning" forum)

[xxxxxx666666]

Your profile says you are just 16 years old. You have a lot to learn, grasshopper. As you grow up, you will (hopefully) learn, because you just don't get how things work, do you. For one thing, try to be more civil to others.

LOL :laugh: Manners are dying, comrade (you are my conrade right?) soon, we shall all talk in rude language to all who we perceived to disagree with us!

Just kidding, or at least I hope I am. (But then again, on some other sites *some* people are freakishly rude to each other, so maybe not.)


This discussion is veering off-topic. Perhaps a new thread needs to be started:

Does media propaganda influence and misinform public opinion? (in the "Learning" forum)

Ask and you shall receive:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/does-media-propaganda-t184601/index.html?p=2682941#post2682941
(Yeah! I can post links now!)

[Klaatu]

Thanks, I think it is something that merits discussion. While it is a good thing to read Marx, et al, one cannot distance oneself from the happenings-of-the-real-world. To know what is going on in The Media is to know one's enemy, and not to just live in a fantasy world of
"The Revolution" (as certain people seem to do here on this thread) hoping for change. (how else can positive change happen?)

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Your profile says you are just 16 years old. You have a lot to learn, grasshopper. As you grow up, you will (hopefully) learn, because you just don't get how things work, do you. For one thing, try to be more civil to others.

Hopefully one of the things he'll learn is that people who dodge questions by complaining about age differences have the deductive capacity of a six year old.

Honestly buddy, rattle the sagely stick all you want, but all you responded to Bleys with was a tantrum cloaked in superciliousness. Right now he looks a lot more mature than you do, personality-wise.

[Klaatu]

Hopefully one of the things he'll learn is that people who dodge questions by complaining about age differences have the deductive capacity of a six year old.

Honestly buddy, rattle the sagely stick all you want, but all you responded to Bleys with was a tantrum cloaked in superciliousness. Right now he looks a lot more mature than you do, personality-wise.

How easy it is to say that I make a tantrum (go back and carefully re-read HIS posts too and try really hard to figure out who is the immature one --- he disagrees with my premise yet offers no counterpoint, only babbling criticism --- he name-calls --- he does not understand the real world (few sixteen year-olds do) Someone that insulates themselves from what other's views are is a fool that will not accomplish a thing, other than whining on some obscure discussion forum. Maybe he would learn something about public discourse if he joined his high school debate club?
And you?

[Remus Bleys]

Your profile says you are just 16 years old.
So?

You have a lot to learn, grasshopper. Orientalism.

As you grow up, you will (hopefully) learn,Learn what? Learn liberalism?


because you just don't get how things work, do you.
Actually, I think I have a lot of understanding of how things work. Of course, I'm very ignorant, for instance, on race issues, I'd be asking Star Linn for information.
I can admit that.

For one thing, try to be more civil to others.
Why?

How easy it is to say that I make a tantrum (go back and carefully re-read HIS posts too and try really hard to figure out who is the immature one --- he disagrees with my premise yet offers no counterpoint, only babbling criticismActually this isn't true. You've simply not addressed them.

--- he name-calls ---
I call it like I see it

he does not understand the real world
I understand it more than your liberal idealism.

(few sixteen year-olds do)
Why is this a talking point? Does this make what I say invalid?
It appears Klaatu thinks shooting the messenger makes the message go away.

Someone that insulates themselves from what other's views are is a fool that will not accomplish a thing,
Actually, I have learned that it is "debates" that do not accomplish a thing


other than whining on some obscure discussion forum.
Tell me oh wise Klaatu of your activism.

Maybe he would learn something about public discourse if he joined his high school debate club?

How about the Speech Class I took at the College I have been going to for the past three years?

[Klaatu]

OK I will try to be "civil," since some people think I am not :rolleyes: :lol:


Minority groups aren't a separate class.
However, they are an oppressed group and our in the lower strata most certainly.

correct


A Black bourgeois is lower in status than a White Bourgeois, but a White Proletariat is infinitely more exploited than a Black Bourgeois.

that is a racist viewpoint (by your standards) as well as being untrue.


Racism happens for various reasons. In America at least, it was created to justify slavery,

wrong again. The early slaveholders did not hate the black race, but they exploited them because they were not able to resist (Europeans had better weapons, armies, etc) and Africans were well-suited to work in hot climates (according to researchers) Racism = Hatred (did not become prominent until after the civil war)


and later on it was created in order to give lower wages to the proletariat,
ALL proletariat endure low wages, nothing racist about it

Now why not stop being facetious and get back to intelligent discussion?

[Remus Bleys]

OK I will try to be "civil," since some people think I am not :rolleyes: :lol:
Who implied that?



that is a racist viewpoint (by your standards)
How?

as well as being untrue.
How?

wrong again. The early slaveholders did not hate the black race, but they exploited them because they were not able to resist (Europeans had better weapons, armies, etc) and were well-suited to work in hot climates (according to researchers) Racism = Hatred (did not become prominent until after the civil war):laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
Are you serious? Are you fucking serious? God, I seriously hope you're a troll.
"I don't hate you, I'm only going to break up your family and work you to death!"
Racism is institutional. Even if this was true (and it is soooooooooooooooooo historically inaccurate) it means nothing. So what if the slave wasn't hated? They were still a slave.


ALL proletariat endured low wages, nothing racist about it
"ALL proletarians endured low wages, nothing sexist about it"
Also, what is with the past tense Klaatu?


Now why not stop being facetious
How am I being facetious?

and get back to intelligent discussion?lulz

[Klaatu]

"I don't hate you, I'm only going to break up your family and work you to death!"
Racism is institutional. Even if this was true (and it is soooooooooooooooooo historically inaccurate) it means nothing. So what if the slave wasn't hated? They were still a slave.

Perhaps we have different views on racism; I view it as being a hatred of a race.

That is different than exploitation. For example, one uses a horse to do work (at least they did back then) that does not mean the horse is hated, but it is certainly being exploited. I think your view is that it is the exploitation factor that constitutes racism. If this were true, then proletariat whites are being "racially" treated as well. I think you need to separate racism from exploitation. Yes there are certain threads of connection, but there is much difference also.

[Remus Bleys]

"I don't hate you, I'm only going to break up your family and work you to death!"
Racism is institutional. Even if this was true (and it is soooooooooooooooooo historically inaccurate) it means nothing. So what if the slave wasn't hated? They were still a slave.

Perhaps we have different views on racism; I view it as being a hatred of a race.

That is different than exploitation. For example, one uses a horse to do work (at least they did back then) that does not mean the horse is hated, but it is certainly being exploited. I think your view is that it is the exploitation factor that constitutes racism. If this were true, then proletariat whites are being "racially" treated as well. I think you need to separate racism from exploitation. Yes there are certain threads of connection, but there is much difference also.
you're so liberal
i'm so done

[Klaatu]

you're so liberal
i'm so done

I didn't want to say this, but I really think you are a Conservative, masquerading as a Marxist... LOL :laugh:

Good night, Bill O'Reilly

[Comrade Chernov]

It's genuinely hilarious to see people using Liberal and Conservative as if they were some of the dirtiest words on the planet... :lol:

[Klaatu]

It's genuinely hilarious to see people using Liberal and Conservative as if they were some of the dirtiest words on the planet... :lol:

I think you're right. These are powerful labels! (perhaps even offensive, if used with malice)

[BUSHCHENEY2016]

So racism = hate and the slaveholders did not hate slaves and racism didn't occur till after the Civil War? So I take it you don't view slavery as a racist institution? That is 100% rubbish. Slavery was justified as natural because the African race was seen as inferior. It was justified through racism. I am having a hard time seeing how you can say it was not racist.



ALL proletariat endure low wages, nothing racist about it


Black workers receive less than white workers for the same occupation, how is that not racist? Black workers do not have access to the same jobs as white workers, how is that not racist? Black workers are exploited not only for being workers, but also because of their race. White workers are not "racially" oppressed, because they do not face oppression for being white.

African Americans have higher rates of unemployment, poverty, incarceration than White Americans. They have less access to decent schools, housing, and healthy food than White Americans. They receive tougher jail sentences, are more likely to be charged as felons, more likely to be arrested by police, and so on and so forth. White Workers are oppressed and exploited, of course, but, because America is a white supremacist state, they "enjoy" privileges that black workers simply don't have access to. To say, "Black and White workers are not different economically" or to wash the differences away by chalking it up to propaganda, is to do a great disservice to the working class movement in America.

[Blake's Baby]

Klaatu uses a personal definition of racism that isn't in any way scientific.

Racism as it's generally understood is the belief that humanity is divided into different genetic 'races', that can be identified by physical characteristics, but also encompasses psychological or moral characteristics; and that, furthermore, these differences can be measured and ranked.

One may 'hate' other 'races'. One may, on the other hand, admire them. Both are racist attitudes in that they divide humanity into 'races' an place them in an order of merit of some kind. It's not the hatred that makes it racist; it's the division of humanity into genetic groups, and the ranking of these groups into a hierarchy, that makes it racist.

[Fakeblock]

wrong again. The early slaveholders did not hate the black race, but they exploited them because they were not able to resist (Europeans had better weapons, armies, etc) and Africans were well-suited to work in hot climates (according to researchers) Racism = Hatred (did not become prominent until after the civil war)

This isn't true at all, even by your shoddy definition of racism.

[Klaatu]

Not saying any of you are wrong, I am just presenting my own opinion of racism as being a form of hatred, (by the individual) based of what I've seen and experienced in my lifetime. Yes, Remus, dividing people into "races" may seem unfair and unscientific.

Frankly, I do not see what we are all arguing about--- we are all against racism, albeit for perhaps different reasons.

[Remus Bleys]

Not saying any of you are wrong, I am just presenting my own opinion of racism as being a form of hatred, (by the individual) based of what I've seen and experienced in my lifetime. Yes, Remus, dividing people into "races" may seem unfair and unscientific.

Frankly, I do not see what we are all arguing about--- we are all against racism, albeit for perhaps different reasons.

No we are not. You deny institional racisms existence.

[Klaatu]

You deny institional racisms existence.

Like I said in your message box, people make up institutions. Are you saying there is still lawful discrimination? Is that what you mean?
Or are you alluding to the OP article? Be specific.

Remus, if you had been around in the 1960s, like I have, you would have witnessed first-hand the civil rights marches. You would have seen and been near rampant racism. Let me assure you that these things are in fact diminishing. They are improving. I do not deny there are fragments of institutional racism (especially in the American South) but I can also say that I have personally seen positive change in my lifetime.

No, racism has not gone completely away. But then these things are slow to change, unfortunately.

[Remus Bleys]

Like I said in your message box, people make up institutions. Are you saying there is still lawful discrimination? Is that what you mean?
Or are you alluding to the OP article? Be specific.

Remus, if you had been around in the 1960s, like I have, you would have witnessed first-hand the civil rights marches. You would have seen and been near rampant racism. Let me assure you that these things are in fact diminishing. They are improving. I do not deny there are fragments of institutional racism (especially in the American South) but I can also say that I have personally seen positive change in my lifetime.

No, racism has not gone completely away. But then these things are slow to change, unfortunately.

Economic determines the political idiot. I'm saying racism exists as an economic realtity.
Racism is still rampant today, do you knw how many times secuirty guards have acussed my cousins of shoplifting only to let it go when they saw me with them?
Hate crimes go on. Racist attitudes are the norm. People get called nigger (used in a derogatory way) all the fucking time.
And no, not just in the south. Racism is alive and well, it simply has a new, "nicer" form this time around.
Gradual change in a capitalist system shows how liberal you are

[Klaatu]

WOW what part of the city do you live in? We do not see this in the suburban areas. It is unfortunate that you must live with such nonsense.
I am sorry for your situation. Thanks for sharing your experience.

[Remus Bleys]

WOW what part of the city do you live in? We do not see this in the suburban areas. It is unfortunate that you must live with such nonsense.
I am sorry for your situation. Thanks for sharing your experience.

I live in the suburbs.

[RedWaves]

Anti white stuff is in no shape or form as threatening as the white hate groups are. I cannot even take this crap seriously, probably because I live in the south and people do absolutely nothing about the KKK down here.

[Orange Juche]

I don't worry about splinters when I have a horribly punctured artery.

[Leftsolidarity]

Like I said in your message box, people make up institutions. Are you saying there is still lawful discrimination? Is that what you mean?
Or are you alluding to the OP article? Be specific.

Remus, if you had been around in the 1960s, like I have, you would have witnessed first-hand the civil rights marches. You would have seen and been near rampant racism. Let me assure you that these things are in fact diminishing. They are improving. I do not deny there are fragments of institutional racism (especially in the American South) but I can also say that I have personally seen positive change in my lifetime.

No, racism has not gone completely away. But then these things are slow to change, unfortunately.

Racism is far from going away when we live in a society founded and supported by the oppression and super-exploitation of people of color. This is honestly strange to hear from a communist and sounds like a very liberal interpretation of what racism and national oppression is.

The working masses might be less bigoted (though many still are) but that doesn't mean that racism is any less powerful or prevalent. Reparations have never been given for the vast wealth stolen from the Black nation which still gives super-profits to banks and corporations.

[Niall]

I dont think that racism against whites should be ignored or not looked at, its just with the vast majority of racism being perpetrated by whites then the vast majority of our resources should be used to combat this type of racism. Of course combat anti-white racism as and when you see it but I think there are bigger threats to worry about for the time being

[Bolshevik Sickle]

I dont think that racism against whites should be ignored or not looked at, its just with the vast majority of racism being perpetrated by whites then the vast majority of our resources should be used to combat this type of racism. Of course combat anti-white racism as and when you see it but I think there are bigger threats to worry about for the time being

Yeah but these anti-white hate groups only build to the racial tension. You think when the NBPP says "kill cracka babies" it
makes white people and the KKK want to hide in caves? Of course not, it makes white people feel victimized, and the anti-white hate groups spitting anti-white rhetoric only serves as a propoganda source for White Supremacist groups.

To make sure there is no need for groups like the Aryan Nations to exist, or groups like the Black Panthers to exist, every group must be equally protected under hate speech and hate crime laws.

[Logical seal]

Damn, I fucking hate nazis.

[#FF0000]

Of course not, it makes white people feel victimized

No it doesn't because nobody gives a shit about the NBPP. They are literally a joke.


every group must be equally protected under hate speech and hate crime laws.

They already are, which I think kind of misses the point of why "hate crimes" are particularly bad but I don't think it makes much of a difference either way.

[bcbm]

someone with 'bolshevik' in their name advocating that 'hate speech laws' protect whitey, what is the world coming to

[Igor]

one thing that kinda bothers me about this thread is how american the narrative here is

like every time threads like this one pops up you get people saying that "racism against white people doesn't exist" or that you shouldn't take whiteys complaining seriously but i think that's a gross over-simplification and again, quite strictly american point of view on the matter

racism erupts everywhere with large immigration movements and ever since the eastern bloc fell, eastern and northern europe has seen huge amounts of people from eastern europe looking for a better living and slightly before that, yugoslav war refugees: all of these people are objectively white, but it doesn't stop the society at large discriminating against them in an institutionalized manner. anti-polish sentiment in uk, anti-russian sentiment in finland et cetera are serious problems and having an eastern european name and/or accent will likely make your life more challenging in western europe. yugoslavians are in an especially bad status because of their refugee status as opposed to those who come to work - while usually in fields such as construction where they tend to get paid less and work in worse conditions than local workers. this is actual discrimination, not the "but he called me a cracker" kind of that's common for those who cry anti-white discrimination

the general talk here shouldn't be strictly about white and black because definitions for both can be extremely versatile. a more useful and accurate narrative is generally that minority being anti-majority is absolutely nothing compared to when the tables are turned. in countries with multiracial population like usa the most common way this is seen is white/black but in different parts of the world it easily can be black/black or white/white. "black people being racist doesn't matter" would be quite the statement when discussing rwanda. race is not the big defining thing here, it's specific power structures in whatever part of the world and whatever era we're discussing.

but i seriously can't think of a situation where black people would in a serious manner be systematically discriminating against the whitey and western european whites made their particular brand of racism a global phenomenon, so it's perfectly well and ok to ridicule the types who think black discrimination of whites is a problem or even a thing and i don't disagree with the basic sentiment behind fuck the whitey but on a global scale, the issue isn't always that simple

[Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores]

http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/forum.php
Black supremacy dominates here

Yt's, read at your own discretion!

"HUMUS: LATIN FOR EARTH, GROUND; A BROWN OR BLACK SUBSTANCE OF PARTIALLY OR WHOLLY VEGETABLE OR ANIMAL MATTER (WHEN DECAYING) THAT PRODUCES NUTRIENTS FOR PLANTS AND INCREASES THE ABILITY OF SOIL TO RETAIN WATER (SYMBIOTIC RELATIONSHIP).

HUMAN: EARTHLY BEING FROM THE EARTH (BLACK-BROWN SOIL) OR GROUND!

I HAVE ALREADY REVEALED THAT THE CAUCASOID PEOPLES' (ARTIFICIAL HYBRID RACE) ORIGIN/GENESIS IS FROM 'UNDERWORLD,' (ANCIENT ATLANTIS) INNER-HOLLOW EARTH, WHO INVADED THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH THRU THE CAVES OF THE CAUCASUS MOUNTAINS OF SOUTHERN RUSSIA!

THEY ARE A GENETICALLY-ENGINEERED PSEUDO-SPECIES (HYBRID RACE), ENGINEERED TO RECEIVE 'HIVE' CONSCIOUSNESS (RACISM/WHITE SUPREMACY) DIRECTION/CONTROL FROM THEIR 'UNDERWORLD' UBER-ARYAN MASTERS/CREATORS!"

Uuuuuhhhhhh

[the debater]

"HUMUS: LATIN FOR EARTH, GROUND; A BROWN OR BLACK SUBSTANCE OF PARTIALLY OR WHOLLY VEGETABLE OR ANIMAL MATTER (WHEN DECAYING) THAT PRODUCES NUTRIENTS FOR PLANTS AND INCREASES THE ABILITY OF SOIL TO RETAIN WATER (SYMBIOTIC RELATIONSHIP).

HUMAN: EARTHLY BEING FROM THE EARTH (BLACK-BROWN SOIL) OR GROUND!

I HAVE ALREADY REVEALED THAT THE CAUCASOID PEOPLES' (ARTIFICIAL HYBRID RACE) ORIGIN/GENESIS IS FROM 'UNDERWORLD,' (ANCIENT ATLANTIS) INNER-HOLLOW EARTH, WHO INVADED THE SURFACE OF THE EARTH THRU THE CAVES OF THE CAUCASUS MOUNTAINS OF SOUTHERN RUSSIA!

THEY ARE A GENETICALLY-ENGINEERED PSEUDO-SPECIES (HYBRID RACE), ENGINEERED TO RECEIVE 'HIVE' CONSCIOUSNESS (RACISM/WHITE SUPREMACY) DIRECTION/CONTROL FROM THEIR 'UNDERWORLD' UBER-ARYAN MASTERS/CREATORS!"

Uuuuuhhhhhh

I think these Assata Shakur folks have lost their goddamned minds.

[Leftsolidarity]

one thing that kinda bothers me about this thread is how american the narrative here is

like every time threads like this one pops up you get people saying that "racism against white people doesn't exist" or that you shouldn't take whiteys complaining seriously but i think that's a gross over-simplification and again, quite strictly american point of view on the matter

racism erupts everywhere with large immigration movements and ever since the eastern bloc fell, eastern and northern europe has seen huge amounts of people from eastern europe looking for a better living and slightly before that, yugoslav war refugees: all of these people are objectively white, but it doesn't stop the society at large discriminating against them in an institutionalized manner. anti-polish sentiment in uk, anti-russian sentiment in finland et cetera are serious problems and having an eastern european name and/or accent will likely make your life more challenging in western europe. yugoslavians are in an especially bad status because of their refugee status as opposed to those who come to work - while usually in fields such as construction where they tend to get paid less and work in worse conditions than local workers. this is actual discrimination, not the "but he called me a cracker" kind of that's common for those who cry anti-white discrimination

the general talk here shouldn't be strictly about white and black because definitions for both can be extremely versatile. a more useful and accurate narrative is generally that minority being anti-majority is absolutely nothing compared to when the tables are turned. in countries with multiracial population like usa the most common way this is seen is white/black but in different parts of the world it easily can be black/black or white/white. "black people being racist doesn't matter" would be quite the statement when discussing rwanda. race is not the big defining thing here, it's specific power structures in whatever part of the world and whatever era we're discussing.

but i seriously can't think of a situation where black people would in a serious manner be systematically discriminating against the whitey and western european whites made their particular brand of racism a global phenomenon, so it's perfectly well and ok to ridicule the types who think black discrimination of whites is a problem or even a thing and i don't disagree with the basic sentiment behind fuck the whitey but on a global scale, the issue isn't always that simple

I don't think anyone denies that people deemed "white" have been oppressed throughout the centuries. Russia was the jailhouse of nations and many of them 'white'.

That is different than "Black racism" or white people being oppressed for being white. I'd like you to give me some solid examples of national oppression committed against a 'white' nation by Black/Arab/Latino/Asian oppressor nations.

I can't think of any.

So we can safely say that racism against white people is indeed not an issue and is simply a diversion to play into a white victimization mentality and undermine support for the liberation struggles of truly oppressed nations.

The material conditions of the world are one of an established white imperialist supremacy brought about through a long history of colonialism and imperialism that has stolen resources and people from oppressed nations to solidify their profits and power. So white supremacy comes from centuries of development while there has been absolutely no development of Black supremacy or something of the sort.

So I feel pretty safe saying fuck whitey I don't care if you feel victimized because you're not. I'd rather not debate about some alternate reality where white conquerors didn't establish a global system of slavery, debt, and oppression against non-whites. One where racism against white people can hence actually exist.

It's not reality.

[Was tun, wenn's brennt?]

Anyone, regardless of race is capable of of racial prejudices. Racial prejudices are stupid. The anti-white groups do not have the numbers, power or influence to pose any legitimate concern. If some non-white person wants to spout some anti-white, racist bullshit in front of me they'll certainly catch a slap across the face but -- and this is no big surprise -- I've never had occasion to come across any members of the anti-white crowd.

[Red Commissar]

Racism is bad in any case, but I highly doubt white people in the states face the same kind of structural racism present in society that minorities do. A poor, working-class white is in that position because of capitalism, not because *insert group* or a local government is ghettoizing them on the basis of their appearance.

[RedWaves]

Racism is bad in any case, but I highly doubt white people in the states face the same kind of structural racism present in society that minorities do. A poor, working-class white is in that position because of capitalism, not because *insert group* or a local government is ghettoizing them on the basis of their appearance.

Exactly, couldn't have said it better.

[MarxSchmarx]

I don't think anyone denies that people deemed "white" have been oppressed throughout the centuries. Russia was the jailhouse of nations and many of them 'white'.

That is different than "Black racism" or white people being oppressed for being white. I'd like you to give me some solid examples of national oppression committed against a 'white' nation by Black/Arab/Latino/Asian oppressor nations.

I can't think of any.

So we can safely say that racism against white people is indeed not an issue and is simply a diversion to play into a white victimization mentality and undermine support for the liberation struggles of truly oppressed nations.

The material conditions of the world are one of an established white imperialist supremacy brought about through a long history of colonialism and imperialism that has stolen resources and people from oppressed nations to solidify their profits and power. So white supremacy comes from centuries of development while there has been absolutely no development of Black supremacy or something of the sort.

So I feel pretty safe saying fuck whitey I don't care if you feel victimized because you're not. I'd rather not debate about some alternate reality where white conquerors didn't establish a global system of slavery, debt, and oppression against non-whites. One where racism against white people can hence actually exist.

It's not reality.

I get what you are saying, I really do, but I think Igor's point, however clumsily made, about the fact that this critique is incredibly American-centric is still valid. Actually, it's not just for America, but any country where whites or mixed are in power, including most of Latin America, Europe, Australia and parts of Africa that your polemic is restricted to.

Indeed, there is still institutionalized racism and bigotry against "white" people. For instance, several decades since colonialism ended Amerasians in both Koreas to this day (and to a lesser degree in Okinawa) suffer immense barriers to social advancement. I think this is a complicated story, but it is "racism" in a very real sense. In Taiwan photos are required on resumes, and for many positions I'm told there is routine discrimination against people who aren't of pure Han descent or can't pass as such.

Other Asian countries have long struggled with this. But compare the policy towards people of white-Asian descent in places like the Philippines or mainland China to the discrimination that exists in, say, Vietnam or the commercialization of "halfs" in parts of Japan. I think it's fair to say that Amerisians in Vietnam, for instance, would benefit considerably from protections afforded the "white" Russian minorities in China. Some rights which, curiously, were denied to Russian minorities in Mongolia when Mongolia was a soviet satellite state which to its credit the Mongolian government has sought to rectify.

I'm not saying that whites don't perpetrate racism. They do. But they are not alone.

Where whites don't have power (as in Vietnam) they suffer discrimination that most leftists in Europe and North America choose to ignore for reasons I can only attribute to basic Euro-centrism. Is their plight any worse than other minorities in places like Vietnam? I doubt it, in fact it is probably marginally better than, say, Khmer or offspring of black or South Korean soldiers or even foreign-born Vietnamese. But I think it's important that the ideas of white racism are very real, but only in certain contexts, and that the notion that whites suffer discrimination can only be dismissed if one is so fixated on countries where whites rule.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

That site that Aleister linked is disgusting. How dare they use Assata for the picture figurehead of their disgusting flipside right-wing racist forums.


I get what you are saying, I really do, but I think Igor's point, however clumsily made, about the fact that this critique is incredibly American-centric is still valid. Actually, it's not just for America, but any country where whites or mixed are in power, including most of Latin America, Europe, Australia and parts of Africa that your polemic is restricted to.

Indeed, there is still institutionalized racism and bigotry against "white" people. For instance, several decades since colonialism ended Amerasians in both Koreas to this day (and to a lesser degree in Okinawa) suffer immense barriers to social advancement. I think this is a complicated story, but it is "racism" in a very real sense. In Taiwan photos are required on resumes, and for many positions I'm told there is routine discrimination against people who aren't of pure Han descent or can't pass as such.


The same in Japan. If you have curly hair then you are a target for discrimination in schools and public life - looking slightly ethnically different will set the racist savagery going. If you don't look like a cardboard cut-out Japanese person, then you're 'alien' or even 'subhuman'. If you think the 'perpetual foreigner' racist garbage is strong in America, trust me, the US hasn't even got a thing against Japan and South Korea.

Though I must criticise you on the racism experienced in Japan as this: while it's true that institutional racism happens to white people in S. Korea and Japan, the fact is that African Americans, people from S-East Asia (Indonesia and the Phillipines) and Melanesians get it much, much, much worse. White people are for the most part seen as 'querky' or 'different', and even interesting, in said countries, but if you're Papuan or African the attitudes echo Klan-friendly 1930s white shit America. People will actually not let their family associate with you because of your skin colour, TV shows that would be outright banned in America showing Koreans dressing up in makeup to look Afro-American and acting stupid on purpose are broadcast daily, everybody thinks that people with dark-skin are rapists, etc. . I remember an account by an African-American English teacher working in Korea remarked that his first class consisted of students who repeatedly called him 'ape' and 'monkey', and by another African-American teacher in China who lost his job because students complained that they 'didn't like being taught things by a black'.

In short, Japan and Korea in terms of general racial abuse have the potential to be much worse than the US (one of the reasons why I'm never setting foot in them), but the racism suffered by people who look 'white' doesn't come close to the racism towards Visayans, Javans, Papuans, Afro-Americans, etc.

[Bolshevik Sickle]

In short, Japan and Korea in terms of general racial abuse have the potential to be much worse than the US.

Yeah, but with Japan's fertility rate dwindling they will see a wave of immigrant soon enough. However, I do not support racism from or against the would-be immigrants entering Japan.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Yeah, but with Japan's fertility rate dwindling they will see a wave of immigrant soon enough. However, I do not support racism from or against the would-be immigrants entering Japan.

Tough chance of that. Japanese society is ridiculously conservative and the leading party basically wants migrants to the country on spikes.

I mean, the Japanese government has not even given citizenship to ethnic Koreans who have been living in the country for hundreds of years based on them 'not having Japanese blood', and have only a few years ago recognised the Ainu as the original indigenous people of Japan - and basically only after a UN human rights guy came back from Japan and called it a racist shithole (which it is). I doubt that such racist positions are going to change with an influx of migrants (though it would likely give at least some people in isolated Japan a slap to the face about their fellow humans).

[Yuppie Grinder]

Racism is a systematic thing, individuals who hold prejudiced views against white people are not the same sort or size of problem as institutionalized white supremacy.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Racism is a systematic thing, individuals who hold prejudiced views against white people are not the same sort or size of problem as institutionalized white supremacy.

Err, Japanese, Malay and South Korean supremacy are institutionalised in their respective countries.

This isn't just about white people (and people from the South-East Asian isles, India and PNG mores) being racially abused (which does play into institutional racism). This is about non-Japanese people not even being able to get a job because of their ethnicity - about people being treated as subhuman and deprived of rights under the farcical Grecan idea of freedom, not being able to enter a store because they are not 'pureblood Japanese/Korean/etc' (fucking foul) and there being no laws whatsoever against said segregational implementations.

Malay supremacy against ethnic Chinese people in Malaysia is explosively bad - it is easily as problematic as that facing African-Americans in the US today, and possibly even mores. Chinese people are segregated out of Malay schools, threatened with deportation constantly by the government, have to pay ridiculous amounts for schooling supplies that Malay people get at much lower prices, and for universities that Malay people are let into free. Chinese people who have accidentally caused some kind of incident, such as a car crash, are sometimes even beaten to death. The dogs I posted a thread about earlier this year that focussed on Malay Neo-Nazis wasn't a joke. Those people weren't silly kids who didn't know about Hitler and just wanted to look cool - they were the real deal; bonehead thugs that most definitely terrorise ethnic Han people throughout the city.

[MarxSchmarx]

That site that Aleister linked is disgusting. How dare they use Assata for the picture figurehead of their disgusting flipside right-wing racist forums.


The same in Japan. If you have curly hair then you are a target for discrimination in schools and public life - looking slightly ethnically different will set the racist savagery going. If you don't look like a cardboard cut-out Japanese person, then you're 'alien' or even 'subhuman'. If you think the 'perpetual foreigner' racist garbage is strong in America, trust me, the US hasn't even got a thing against Japan and South Korea.

Though I must criticise you on the racism experienced in Japan as this: while it's true that institutional racism happens to white people in S. Korea and Japan, the fact is that African Americans, people from S-East Asia (Indonesia and the Phillipines) and Melanesians get it much, much, much worse. White people are for the most part seen as 'querky' or 'different', and even interesting, in said countries, but if you're Papuan or African the attitudes echo Klan-friendly 1930s white shit America. People will actually not let their family associate with you because of your skin colour, TV shows that would be outright banned in America showing Koreans dressing up in makeup to look Afro-American and acting stupid on purpose are broadcast daily, everybody thinks that people with dark-skin are rapists, etc. . I remember an account by an African-American English teacher working in Korea remarked that his first class consisted of students who repeatedly called him 'ape' and 'monkey', and by another African-American teacher in China who lost his job because students complained that they 'didn't like being taught things by a black'.

In short, Japan and Korea in terms of general racial abuse have the potential to be much worse than the US (one of the reasons why I'm never setting foot in them), but the racism suffered by people who look 'white' doesn't come close to the racism towards Visayans, Javans, Papuans, Afro-Americans, etc.

I think this is on a basic level true. But I wonder if you read the rest of my post where I noted:


Is their (i.e., the children of white-vietnamese couplings) plight any worse than other minorities in places like Vietnam? I doubt it, in fact it is probably marginally better than, say, Khmer or offspring of black or South Korean soldiers or even foreign-born Vietnamese.The west's racist attitudes do carry over, and in Vietnam children of White soldiers had it a lot easier than children of black soldiers as well as other minorities such as children of Korean soldiers or arguably the Khmer minority.

Actually I'd argue that this is not restricted to south/south east asian and black people, but at least in Japan's case being discovered to be Korean/Han Chinese is even more detrimental than being white or half-white. The exceptions might be Koreans who have completely assimilated, but I think there are also economic issues where people of European decent in Japan tend to be wealthier than people of Korean decent. And as you (and I) noted the pogroms against Chinese in Vietnam were horrifying and their legacy is deep.

So I don't disagree that "non-whites" have it worse in a lot of Asia, including Japan, when it comes to racism. This doesn't mean racism doesn't exist, just is in places like America or Brazil, arguably "non-black" minorities suffer less than black groups.

FYI, the curly hair thing I am not so sure about (there are people like ex prime minister Koizumi who have natural curly hair but people with artificial perms or tattoos are associated with gang membership so that is a bit different I think). But I think the fact that both Japan and Taiwan among others demand photos on resumes is telling about the persistence of racism in both societies in a way that it does not exist in say North America.