'25 Years Later, Poland Is Still Trying to Rid Itself of Communist Street Names'

[Popular Front of Judea]

Do any else beside me find a body called the National Institute of Memory that is dedicated to the erasing of all signs of the recent past to be rather odd?


Goodbye, Heroes of Vietnam Street. Farewell, Six-Year Plan Avenue. So long, Forty Years of the Polish People's Republic Estate. This year, Poland's Senate has moved to ban street names commemorating people and events celebrated by the country's former communist government. The group pushing for the changes is Poland’s Institute of National Memory, a body set up in 1998 to remove traces of the country's former communist rulers and promote the memory of their victims

25 Years Later, Poland Is Still Trying to Rid Itself of Communist Street Names | Atlantic (http://www.theatlanticcities.com/politics/2013/10/25-years-later-poland-still-trying-rid-itself-communist-street-names/7195/)

[argeiphontes]

No, you're not alone. Whatever I think about the PRL, its Orwellian.

[argeiphontes]

Ronald Reagan Square?? Fuck that.

[Red_Banner]

They'll probably name everyting after Reagan, Roman Catholic saints, and popes.

The country has been run by idiots for the past 20 some years

[argeiphontes]

The country has been run by idiots for the past 20 some years

There seems/seemed (maybe tuwix or someone can comment further) to be a big pro-American orientation, but "idiots" isn't the right word. The fall of the PRL was a good thing.

Also, the political spectrum in Poland is still much broader than in the US. But that could be because it's broader everywhere except in dictatorships ;)

I remember some of these names and them changing them, I was there in 1992 for a few weeks and a few times after that. I remember going to a bazaar that had been set up in the Stadium of the Tenth Anniversary (of the PRL) in Warsaw and other things. edit: We stayed in a hotel called Dom Chłopa, which means Peasant's House. I thought it was funny at the time.

[Red_Banner]

There seems/seemed (maybe tuwix or someone can comment further) to be a big pro-American orientation, but "idiots" isn't the right word. The fall of the PRL was a good thing.

Also, the political spectrum in Poland is still much broader than in the US. But that could be because it's broader everywhere except in dictatorships ;)

I remember some of these names and them changing them, I was there in 1992 for a few weeks and a few times after that.

Yeah, but most of these Eastern European countries just didn't get rid of the Soviet system to experiment with some sort of other leftism, they went to full blown capitalism.

Then they adopt monarchist symbols like putting the crown back on the Polish white eagle

[argeiphontes]

Yeah, the crown has my disapproval, that reflects 1000 years of nationalism. But most people's lives are arguably much better than under the dictatorship. (Not going to mince words.) Remember, there was not, and there still isn't, any other realistically available alternative, than "full blown capitalism" that people could fight for.

edit: There was some debate about the crown from several viewpoints IIRC.

[Red_Banner]

Remember, there was not, and there still isn't, any other realistically available alternative, than "full blown capitalism" that people could fight for.

Are you sure?

Some of these countries have gone far right, they aren't even social democracies.

And why can't they try something like anarcho-syndicalism?

There are other realistic alternatives other than selling out to capitalists.

[argeiphontes]

Are you sure?

Some of these countries have gone far right, they aren't even social democracies.

No. I haven't followed Polish politics for a while, and haven't been there in a few years.The PM, Tusk, has a background in Solidarnosc, which was reactionary. And Solidarnosc is, unfortunately, the closest Poland came to any kind of syndicalism.



And why can't they try something like anarcho-syndicalism?

There are other realistic alternatives other than selling out to capitalists.I agree that A-S is realistic in theory, but is not a "realistically available" alternative in practice, for the person on the street to want to fight for it.

edit: Also remember that the Eastern Bloc countries were subject to the same propaganda about what socialism and communism is as we are here. It was a nice collaboration between the two sides, beneficial for both.

[JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa]

I finally finished my latest book, The rise and fall of the third Reich it took quite awhile but it was well worth it.

If you look at the history of poland and what those people have been through you can understand why people would want to get rid of any of the names relating to the multiple regimes that massacred and tortured its citizenship.

I had read another book on world war two a year or so ago I got to one part where i had to walk away when these polish jews have been liberated from the death camps and in the next weeks were repeatedly raped by Soviet soldiers and some of them died from the attacks.

The soviet Regime actively made deals with Germany to expand its "spheres of influence" and they engaged in similar plans to what Germany ironically, had planned for Russia and its satellites. Forced export of all food production and let the entire population starve, keeping a percentage alive to work in a vassal state.

People who downplay what the Soviet union did compared to what Britain did in its empire, or what Germany did to "expand or die" as the Nazis put it are really every bit as misguided and in my opinion, as horrible as the anti semites who deny the holocaust.

The fact Stalin could hug Ribbentrop at the train station while the man was busy planning to track down and exterminate jews and conquer foreign lands for his reich and doing away with any workers rights throughout the occupied zones really says how much Stalin cared about the working class and its situation in europe, let alone his complete aopathy for the jews he rounded up and sent to the Germans to be killed.


Also to even call the soviet Union Communist is ridiculous, was it a state? Then it was not communist, did it have wage slavery? Indeed!

People from America or England or France acting like Polish people are stupid for wanting to get rid of "communist" street names are either totally unaware of Poland's recent history or are being malicious and rewriting history.

None of the sides in world war two were fighting for humanity, the working class or to defend the right of small nations.

My country, England, fought to maintain its dominance via colonial Hegemony and monopoly capitalism.

American politicians despite the majority of americans not wanting to fight an Imperialist war went to war to become a great power, for the glory of the nation and all that expansionist bullshit thats been going on since the Phillipines.


Most importantly the ruling class pushed this war, made billions and then after the world was reduced to rubble they made even more building it back up.

[rednordman]

People who downplay what the Soviet union did compared to what Britain did in its empire, or what Germany did to "expand or die" as the Nazis put it are really every bit as misguided and in my opinion, as horrible as the anti semites who deny the holocaust.No one down plays what the SU did, just some take exception to the current tirade of bullshit getting thrown at us trying to make the SU sound like the worst dictatorship in the history of mankind. Also, the polish ridding there streets of these names sadly says more about their political stances as a nation rather than wanting to break away from the past. Hell it wouldn't surprise me if some places there try to rename their streets after the Nazis and i can definitely see them using names with russophobic sentiment.

[JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa]

No one down plays what the SU did, just some take exception to the current tirade of bullshit getting thrown at us trying to make the SU sound like the worst dictatorship in the history of mankind. Also, the polish ridding there streets of these names sadly says more about their political stances as a nation rather than wanting to break away from the past. Hell it wouldn't surprise me if some places there try to rename their streets after the Nazis and i can definitely see them using names with russophobic sentiment.

Why wouldn't you want people saying the soviet union was the worst dictatorship ever?

Would you ridicule and shout at jews saying they shouldn't make the nazis out to be the worst conquering force in history because the mongols skinned people and force-fed them their skin till they died, why are you putting effort into defending the honour of the soviet union that was every bit as responsible for Human misery as Britain or Germany?

Defending the soviet union that killed millions of people in labour camps (read gulag boss, the journal of a Gulag administrator who was a marxist lenninist till the day He died and later after his gulag experience became a diplomat for the USSR) , banned strikes and outlawed homosexuality and abortion is as bad as defending British forced starvation of Indian peasantry or the German labour laws that banned collective bargaining and gave special treatment (hanging) for union organisers.

[JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa]

No one down plays what the SU did, just some take exception to the current tirade of bullshit getting thrown at us trying to make the SU sound like the worst dictatorship in the history of mankind. Also, the polish ridding there streets of these names sadly says more about their political stances as a nation rather than wanting to break away from the past. Hell it wouldn't surprise me if some places there try to rename their streets after the Nazis and i can definitely see them using names with russophobic sentiment.

Also, this conformation bias that makes you defend something you associate with is such a problem amongst the left, even in Anarchist circles too, to be honest.

It is like saying the europeans were worse than the Native tribes that were killing, warring and enslaving each other. The whole liberal white revisionist image of the natives using every part of the animal and being environmental loving noblemen kinda gets shattered after you do some rudimentary research and find out about incidents where the native would kill thousands of buffalo and just cut out heir tongues, or when they were capture rival tribe members and eat them or when they would ensalve huge ammounts of people, just like europeans did to black people.

I had the same racist white guilt revisionism until I had a good woman in my life who told me to cut the shit and stop patronizing her and explained how her ancestors and my ancestors were both run by oppressive systems and beliefs and just because one side won and the other lost does not make a moral distinction between the two.

The soviet union did not help the working class it oppressed it, shit I would of had more freedom under the archaic American constitution than I would of under the soviet system.
When you make capitalism and western statism look appealing, you are probably doing it wrong.

Also, I know 4 elderly eastern european people, some family others not, every single one describes the soviet union and horrendous, it is not a conspiracy that the soviet union was a horrible dictatorship.

The jews who tell of the German gas chambers get called liars by neo nazis
The workers of eastern Europe get called lying defamers of the soviet union which FYI wasn't the worst ever dictatorhip ever.

Do you enjoy the company you share?


Let me ask you who was responsible for the Katyn massacre:)

[Leftsolidarity]

Yeah, the crown has my disapproval, that reflects 1000 years of nationalism. But most people's lives are arguably much better than under the dictatorship. (Not going to mince words.) Remember, there was not, and there still isn't, any other realistically available alternative, than "full blown capitalism" that people could fight for.

edit: There was some debate about the crown from several viewpoints IIRC.

Yeah, just had to destroy those pesky workers' states so people could fight for capitalism again. :rolleyes:

Monarchist symbols, capitalist restoration, and even trying to destroy the memory of anything more progressive than capitalism; that is so great. It sure beats socialism because apparently it's the only "realistic" thing they could fight for.

[Crabbensmasher]

Are you sure?

Some of these countries have gone far right, they aren't even social democracies.

And why can't they try something like anarcho-syndicalism?

There are other realistic alternatives other than selling out to capitalists.

Why can't they just, you know, try something like anarcho-syndicalism?

1: Hey man, you wanna try out that whole new 'Anarchism' thing?
2: Yeah, that sounds like fun. Capitalism was getting a bit stale anyhow
1: Quite true. It'll be nice to have a change of scenery
2: Splendid. I'll just sign over a few forms ... and ... there we have it. Anarchism
1: Wonderful! I'll see at work on Monday?
2: As usual. Cheerio

I'm sorry, but the way you worded that... I just had to.

[Red_Banner]

Why can't they just, you know, try something like anarcho-syndicalism?

1: Hey man, you wanna try out that whole new 'Anarchism' thing?
2: Yeah, that sounds like fun. Capitalism was getting a bit stale anyhow
1: Quite true. It'll be nice to have a change of scenery
2: Splendid. I'll just sign over a few forms ... and ... there we have it. Anarchism
1: Wonderful! I'll see at work on Monday?
2: As usual. Cheerio

I'm sorry, but the way you worded that... I just had to.

No, no, you misunderstand me.

I am not a utopian.

I'm just saying there are other leftist ideologies to adopt and strive for than to go so far right like these countries did in a short amount of time.

Like Ukraine had the sense to be neutral, but most central and eastern European countries over night became NATO and EC/EU *****es.

[Crabbensmasher]

No, no, you misunderstand me.

I am not a utopian.

I'm just saying there are other leftist ideologies to adopt and strive for than to go so far right like these countries did in a short amount of time.

Like Ukraine had the sense to be neutral, but most central and eastern European countries over night became NATO and EC/EU *****es.

Haha, sorry I just had to. But yeah, I understand what you're trying to say.

The way I see it, after the fall of the SU, there were a few very opportunistic politicians who took over. Suddenly, all the pro-free market, pro-western reformers became famous even though they were still from the old institutions. It's why you saw people like Boris Yeltsin gain popularity in Russia as well as Lech Walesa in Poland. People just kind of looked up at them and said "What now?".

[rednordman]

Why wouldn't you want people saying the soviet union was the worst dictatorship ever? Because for one, it wasn't. People who say that from eastern europe probably are too young to remember fascism. And two, all that ever get achieved by saying that is empowering the right-wing and extremists. It does nothing at all to help the left and is basically used as a generic knee-jerk slur against anything that is remotely progressive let alone left-wing (or even centrist nowadays) in the modern world. Look at the amount of republicans who love to compare Barack Obama to Stalin (or even Hitler now, because they are being brainwashed into thinking he was a communist too). You'd think they where joking, and they may try and put it across that way, but deep inside they actually believe it. And they do this because they know they can even if they know themselves that its is wrong.

From my experience, the majority of the eastern Europeans I have spoken with about those times, generally enjoy getting rid of the repression and restrictions on travel, but very much regret loosing the social welfare and very high employment which is all but gone in eastern Europe now. It may have seemed very tempting at the time, but frankly capitalism has not provided them with the answer and has caused even more problems. In essence the grass wasn't all greener on the other side like they where led to believe it was.

[Raskolnikov]

There seems/seemed (maybe tuwix or someone can comment further) to be a big pro-American orientation, but "idiots" isn't the right word. The fall of the PRL was a good thing.

Also, the political spectrum in Poland is still much broader than in the US. But that could be because it's broader everywhere except in dictatorships ;)

I remember some of these names and them changing them, I was there in 1992 for a few weeks and a few times after that. I remember going to a bazaar that had been set up in the Stadium of the Tenth Anniversary (of the PRL) in Warsaw and other things. edit: We stayed in a hotel called Dom Chłopa, which means Peasant's House. I thought it was funny at the time.

The Fall of the PRL was a good thing in the same sense the First Rzeczpospolita was a good thing and the 2nd Rzeczpospolita was the bestest thing ever.

[rednordman]

Defending the soviet union that killed millions of people in labour camps (read gulag boss, the journal of a Gulag administrator who was a marxist lenninist till the day He died and later after his gulag experience became a diplomat for the USSR) , banned strikes and outlawed homosexuality and abortion is as bad as defending British forced starvation of Indian peasantry or the German labour laws that banned collective bargaining and gave special treatment (hanging) for union organisers.But the epic problem with that its that NO ONE knows about the crimes of the British Empire and when they find out, the either swipe it under the carpet, or sadly more likely, defend it. Heck, its so so easy to make the Soviet Union sound even more awful, when we are never told about the exploits of our own.

[JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa]

But the epic problem with that its that NO ONE knows about the crimes of the British Empire and when they find out, the either swipe it under the carpet, or sadly more likely, defend it. Heck, its so so easy to make the Soviet Union sound even more awful, when we are never told about the exploits of our own.

So we should lie because the working class are too dumb to get it.

Seriously dude don't pretend you are on my side or can help my class by downplaying the murder of millions of workers because, it hurts your political allegiance. Leftism does not need to be defended, the supposed leftist states were every bit as worse as the "right" ones.

You need to go read some books from opposing view points. Go on sites with different political groups, go outside and lastly stop being a condescending old man to the workers you pretend to want to help, you crusty old wanker.

If you defended slavery on here you would get tracked
You defend the gulag killing millions and handing over of jews and communists to Germany by the Soviets you are treated as normal, this is fucking insane.

[rednordman]

If you defended slavery on here you would get tracked
You defend the gulag killing millions and handing over of jews and communists to Germany by the Soviets you are treated as normal, this is fucking insane.Ok then if everyone is as bad as each other, why are the Soviets much worse? Your making the huge mistake of accusing me of defending their crimes. I don't really understand why you have done that to be honest. I haven't tried to say the Russians did or didn't do stuff or defend it (not the really bad things anyway) Just I think this whole idea that the SU was the worst ever thing to happen to man, has more to do with the right-wing trying to smear the left as a whole, not just communism. Its like they want us all to say 'we'll Nazism isn't so bad, because at least it wasn't communism'. I could understand you having that view point..if your a neo-conservative or something like that.

OK, so cry about how it was one of the worst things to happen to man, not the worst. But at least with all the bad things, there was some progressive things about it. Or at least they tried. That's a hell of a lot more than what could be said about the rest of the world with the exception of Scandinavia and even those nations are just a well funded welfare states.

By saying that I am in no way trying to defend the Soviet unions crimes. Heck, if it wasn't for those crimes who knows how things would have turned out?

[rednordman]

You need to go read some books from opposing view points. Go on sites with different political groups, go outside and lastly stop being a condescending old man to the workers you pretend to want to help, you crusty old wanker.
:laugh:You fucking elitist, how cute.

[JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa]

Ok then if everyone is as bad as each other, why are the Soviets much worse? Your making the huge mistake of accusing me of defending their crimes. I don't really understand why you have done that to be honest. I haven't tried to say the Russians did or didn't do stuff or defend it (not the really bad things anyway) Just I think this whole idea that the SU was the worst ever thing to happen to man, has more to do with the right-wing trying to smear the left as a whole, not just communism. Its like they want us all to say 'we'll Nazism isn't so bad, because at least it wasn't communism'. I could understand you having that view point..if your a neo-conservative or something like that.

OK, so cry about how it was one of the worst things to happen to man, not the worst. But at least with all the bad things, there was some progressive things about it. Or at least they tried. That's a hell of a lot more than what could be said about the rest of the world with the exception of Scandinavia and even those nations are just a well funded welfare states.

By saying that I am in no way trying to defend the Soviet unions crimes. Heck, if it wasn't for those crimes who knows how things would have turned out?

The british empire is not the worst thing ever. The British Empire helped to push out feudal spheres in regions and put in place capitalism, compodor capitalism mostly but it still revolutionised production there.

Genghis kahn ran the worst empire known to man. He also ope ned up trade routes, his areas had enforced religious tolerance etc.


You are doing a revisionist trick that Dan Carlin calls repainting the historical arsonist. 100 years from now historians will start doing it about Hitler, how his war unified Europe, how it ended the old germanic states and ultimately lead to a united Germany post cold war. How it advanced technology.

Hitler started those figurative fired for domination without regards to Human suffering, just because something good came out the ashes is not a reason to defe d them.

And yes you are defending, if i started a thread saying :

why do people make out the slave trade was the worst thing ever?

what would your reaction be? what would revlefts reaction be? would you class that as defending privilege, racism or downplaying genocide?

[argeiphontes]

Yeah, just had to destroy those pesky workers' states so people could fight for capitalism again. :rolleyes:

Monarchist symbols, capitalist restoration, and even trying to destroy the memory of anything more progressive than capitalism; that is so great. It sure beats socialism because apparently it's the only "realistic" thing they could fight for.

More progressive than (non-state) capitalism? In some parallel universe maybe. In this universe, there are many members of my family, and my ex-wife's family, and the whole Polish community inside and outside of Poland, who would love to tell you how progressive the PRL was. Not just when it comes to material things, but the rights of workers to address grievances and so forth. The factory bosses and the party bosses ran it all for themselves.

It's easy to see how progressive it was in 1989. A worker's paradise would have been defended by the workers themselves. People knew exactly what they were doing--trying to free themselves from their oppressors.

edit: If you think 1989 was some kind of bourgeois activity, you should check Wikipedia to see who the members of Solidarnosc were.

[Sea]

"idiots" isn't the right word
He wasn't referring to the Poles in general, but to the country's leaders, so I think "idiots" is actually the right word.

[argeiphontes]

^ My point, which I should have made clearer, is that they are acting in their interests, not just being idiots. I wouldn't say the Tea Party are idiots, even though Ted Cruz and Michelle Bachman could just be "useful idiots" or "true believers" to the ideologues/demagogues that are behind them and financing the whole shebang.

[rednordman]

why do people make out the slave trade was the worst thing ever?

what would your reaction be? what would revlefts reaction be? would you class that as defending privilege, racism or downplaying genocide?My reaction would be...your just a fucking troll.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I've no love for the SU but comparing the Eastern Bloc to the transatlantic slave trade is absolutely fucking moronic and insulting.

[SoMarks]

- I think that there is also a old started nationalistic component in rejection of communism in Poland that was not brought into discussion. From about XV century, Szlachta, a minority of polish landlords, ruled ruthlessly over russian peasants on western territories of Ukraine (Galicia). Even in roumanian vocabulary, "şleahta" means polish nobility but also a bunch of greedy bastards or a gang of bandits. When they could, russians, also took back territories but with some polish population included, see Polish–Ukrainian War (1918-1919) and Operation Vistula. In Roumania it is a very similar situation of much more nationalistic origin than class related, both with Hungary (that one is not communism related) and especially USSR (russians) in rejection of communism and renaming of the streets.

- Transylvania, with a majority of roumanian population, was exploited for centuries by hungarian landlords (grofi, şleahta equivalent) when it was captured by Austrian-Hungarian empire. The resentments of both sides are present even today, exploited by nationalistic parties. Historically, russians, communists or not, took parts of Roumania several times. It's understandable that because them, somehow forcefully brought communism and not a country like France that roumanian people consider friendly or latin related, roumanians and obviously polish people, more easily associate communism with something bad or even evil. Could, if such be the case, someone more knowledgeable in history or a polish shed some more light about these aspects?