being a woman in public [Archive]

bcbm

18th October 2013, 23:24

If the door-holder did speak to her, do you believe that would count as harassment?

well everything she says suggests she has no desire to talk to him, so, yeah.

I understand being concerned about harassment. But it seems frankly pathological to be anxious about it anytime it seems like somebody might talk to you.

its bigger than that. if you haven't yet, read the comments, seriously. i did for about half an hour last night and it is troubling to say the least. it isn't just 'oh no they are going to talk to me,' it is this in the context of a much larger pattern of generalized harassment from cat calling to nice comments not 'adequately' responded leading to enraged men yelling to actual assault.

What in your opinion are some practical things men can do to help stop this?

leave women alone who obviously do not want you to stare at them or bother them?

Well, I want to understand the article itself. If the point the writer was making can only be seen by reading the comments, that's just shoddy writing.

its from the 'group think' section of jezebel which i think is more of a sounding board than a place for full on journalism. but that so many women find this one incident resonates with their experience is telling and a lot of the stories are downright shocking. and commonplace.

Radio Spartacus

18th October 2013, 23:37

If the door-holder did speak to her, do you believe that would count as harassment?

I understand being concerned about harassment. But it seems frankly pathological to be anxious about it anytime it seems like somebody might talk to you.

What in your opinion are some practical things men can do to help stop this?

Well, I want to understand the article itself. If the point the writer was making can only be seen by reading the comments, that's just shoddy writing.

I think that the point here is that men come on to women so often that social anxiety can come up from such a simple situation. Male privilege gives us the perspective of "Oh, what's wrong with being approached in public?" but for a lot of women riding the metro I can perfectly understand being anxious about men hitting on you.

I've never have to worry about people honking at me and shouting "slut" when i walk alone at night. Many women do. I think this general level of harassment can lead to a justified fear of being approached by men with some creepy bullshit.

zoot_allures

18th October 2013, 23:41

well everything she says suggests she has no desire to talk to him, so, yeah.
If talking to somebody who doesn't want you to talk to them counts as harassment, then sure, she should be worried about harassment. I think it's kinda ridiculous to consider that harassment. (If we were talking about a guy following a woman who's explicitly told him to go away, constantly trying to get her to talk to him, that would be different.)

I'm not going to spend half an hour reading those comments. To me, this seems like a mental issue that she needs to sort out for herself. I'm open to changing my mind about that, but I'm not searching through all those comments to find one that might help me understand.

It's rude to bother people who aren't interested in talking to you (I say it's rude, I wouldn't say it's necessarily harassment). Unfortunately, body language isn't always so easy to read, and it's always clear whether somebody obviously doesn't want to talk to you. What I certainly don't advocate is people treading on eggshells in public to avoid causing mild irritation to someone else in public.

What would be interesting would be to see some good empirical research about how many other women have similar feelings in public.

Ele'ill

18th October 2013, 23:42

I'm open to changing my mind about that, but I'm not searching through all those comments to find one that might help me understand.

So then you don't really give a shit about other people's actual experiences? Whatever, fuck your shitty opinion.

zoot_allures

18th October 2013, 23:46

So then you don't really give a shit about other people's actual experiences? Whatever, fuck your shitty opinion.
Well, I'm not interested in reading all those comments. If there are any comments there you think are relevant, please post them.

I don't appreciate your nasty attitude. I think I've been perfectly civil.

zoot_allures

18th October 2013, 23:54

I think that the point here is that men come on to women so often that social anxiety can come up from such a simple situation. Male privilege gives us the perspective of "Oh, what's wrong with being approached in public?" but for a lot of women riding the metro I can perfectly understand being anxious about men hitting on you.
If a woman has had men frequently harass her, then of course I understand why she might be anxious about it happening again. (Although, as I said above, I don't agree that just talking to somebody who doesn't want to talk to you counts as harassment. It becomes harassment if you keep pushing it.)

Male privilege, perhaps. Perhaps location is also a factor here. Where I live, it's pretty rare for men to even approach, let alone harass, women on public transport. (Or maybe it's not rare, and I just haven't noticed it. I'm sure I would notice it though, since I tend to pay a lot of attention to fellow passengers when I'm on public transport (I have certain anxieties about particular social situations too...).)

Radio Spartacus

19th October 2013, 00:04

If a woman has had men frequently harass her, then of course I understand why she might be anxious about it happening again. (Although, as I said above, I don't agree that just talking to somebody who doesn't want to talk to you counts as harassment. It becomes harassment if you keep pushing it.)

Male privilege, perhaps. Perhaps location is also a factor here. Where I live, it's pretty rare for men to even approach, let alone harass, women on public transport. (Or maybe it's not rare, and I just haven't noticed it. I'm sure I would notice it though, since I tend to pay a lot of attention to fellow passengers when I'm on public transport (I have certain anxieties about particular social situations too...).)

This article is, as intended, a depiction of an event that is not the all encompassing gender inequality of our society but a reverberation of that social ill. It is intended to make us begin a conversation of this. I think an essential part of that conversation is to read the reactions to the article, and I doubt it will take a half hour of your time to find validating evidence (besides, this shit is interesting). There's an irony to a leftist not wanting to hear the people out, no? Shouldn't the opinion of women who responded to the article be at the FOREFRONT of the discussion?

zoot_allures

19th October 2013, 00:09

This article is, as intended, a depiction of an event that is not the all encompassing gender inequality of our society but a reverberation of that social ill. It is intended to make us begin a conversation of this. I think an essential part of that conversation is to read the reactions to the article, and I doubt it will take a half hour of your time to find validating evidence (besides, this shit is interesting). There's an irony to a leftist not wanting to hear the people out, no?
I'll read whatever comments you think are relevant. Just let me know which ones you have in mind, or post them here.

But anyway, as I said, I don't disagree that if a woman has been harassed before, or if harassment does in fact happen a lot in some situation, then it's understandable and reasonable to be worried about it happening again in that situation (in fact this is true for anyone, not just women).

Radio Spartacus

19th October 2013, 00:16

I'll read whatever comments you think are relevant. Just let me know which ones you have in mind, or post them here.

But anyway, as I said, I don't disagree that if a woman has been harassed before, or if harassment does in fact happen a lot in some situation, then it's understandable and reasonable to be worried about it happening again in that situation (in fact this is true for anyone, not just women).

I'm not going to filter the comments for you, that's not my job. How are we going to overthrow the social order if we don't have the effort to read a comment section? I'm telling you, the article was supposed to start a conversation and the comments should be viewed as an extension. Take the initiative, unless you're so deeply not interested in women's struggles that you're unwilling to scroll.

zoot_allures

19th October 2013, 00:20

I'm not going to filter the comments for you, that's not my job.
That's cool, no problem.

Ele'ill

19th October 2013, 00:27

Well, I'm not interested in reading all those comments.

I know.

If there are any comments there you think are relevant, please post them.

They already are posted, in the comments section.

I don't appreciate your nasty attitude.

I don't care.

I think I've been perfectly civil.

Did any portion of your brain recoil in terror when you typed this

zoot_allures

19th October 2013, 00:29

Did any portion of your brain recoil in terror when you typed this
None whatsoever.

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 00:43

I'll read whatever comments you think are relevant. Just let me know which ones you have in mind, or post them here.

That's a pretty dumb way of engaging in a thread. "Naw I'm not gonna even browse through any of the information in OP's link that might be pertinent to the discussion. Feed it to me like a baby bird please"

If talking to somebody who doesn't want you to talk to them counts as harassment, then sure, she should be worried about harassment. I think it's kinda ridiculous to consider that harassment. (If we were talking about a guy following a woman who's explicitly told him to go away, constantly trying to get her to talk to him, that would be different.)

We're talkin' about a dude who was just in a weird verbal altercation with someone and who would seem to be weirdly aggressive for no reason and started staring down a woman who probably doesn't feel like she'd be able to adequately defend herself. I think this is pretty obvious.

Also I think it's pretty fucked up that you implied the woman's got some brain problems or something for feeling uncomfortable with a dude who just displayed some weird aggression grilling her on a subway car. If anyone's got a problem it's grown adults who stare.

zoot_allures

19th October 2013, 00:46

That's a pretty dumb way of engaging in a thread. "Naw I'm not gonna read any of the information in OP's link that might be pertinent to the discussion. Feed it to me like a baby bird please"
I'm totally happy to read whatever you feel is relevant, whether on that site or another. As I said, just say which comments you have in mind, or post them here, and I'll read them.

Ele'ill

19th October 2013, 00:53

I'm totally happy to read whatever you feel is relevant, whether on that site or another.

just not what we feel is relevant or on that site

zoot_allures

19th October 2013, 01:00

just not what we feel is relevant or on that site
No, I'm happy to read what you feel is relevant on that site. Name the relevant comments. (Actually, you'll also need to let me know what they're relevant to - that is, what I've said that you disagree with that you think the comments in question will address.) If you feel that all the comments are relevant, I'll check out, say, the first five or ten or so.

Anyway, this is a silly tangent and there's no point derailing the thread with it. So you don't like my policy about reading comments. Okay, cool. :) Either you'll let me know what comments you have in mind or you won't; if you do, we can talk more, if you don't, I don't have anything more to say (at this point at least).

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 01:01

I'm totally happy to read whatever you feel is relevant, whether on that site or another. As I said, just say which comments you have in mind, or post them here, and I'll read them.

They're comments, dogg. Just browse through them.

To be honest though, you shouldn't really have to. I think it's plainly obvious why someone would feel uncomfortable having some aggressive dude on a subway grilling them until they leave. Especially if one is a woman having this experience, in a world where women are routinely harassed by dudes they don't know.
(http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/statistics/statistics-academic-studies/)
EDIT: Changed the link to a more appropriate aggregate of studies -- realized the one I linked which showed that women consistently report feeling "unsafe" in public places at night (http://www.gallup.com/poll/155402/women-feel-less-safe-men-developed-countries.aspx)across 143 countries didn't really show what I was trying to say.

La Comédie Noire

19th October 2013, 01:02

I remember when I was younger I didn't get the big deal about being a women in public. "Oh please" I'd say "I'd love to be told I'm pretty all day." Then one day this guy was staring at me with such a hungry look I instantly became uncomfortable. The way he looked me up and down there was something threatening and creepy about it. It was like I could feel his erection.

Then I found out he was actually staring at a woman directly passed me and I was just soaking up most of the creep glare. I've had a profound sympathy for women ever since.

Danielle Ni Dhighe

19th October 2013, 01:10

Congratulations, zoot_allures, you've derailed this thread and made it all about you.

zoot_allures

19th October 2013, 01:11

I think it's plainly obvious why someone would feel uncomfortable having some aggressive dude on a subway grilling them until they leave.
But I'm not talking about "some aggressive dude on a subway grilling them until they leave". In the story bcbm posted, the man never even approached the woman. Rather, she felt anxious because he might approach her.

zoot_allures

19th October 2013, 01:13

Congratulations, zoot_allures, you've derailed this thread and made it all about you.
I'll accept some responsibility for that, but certainly not all. I wasn't having a conversation with myself.

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 01:13

But I'm not talking about "some aggressive dude on a subway grilling them until they leave". In the story bcbm posted, the man never even approached the woman. Rather, she felt anxious because he might approach her.

Because he's staring at her. And he certainly seems aggressive to her after the brief verbal altercation he was just in.

Kinda blows my mind when I have to explain to grown adults that staring is rude and makes people uncomfortable. C'mon dogg.

zoot_allures

19th October 2013, 01:16

Because he's staring at her. And he certainly seems aggressive to her after the brief verbal altercation he was just in.

Kinda blows my mind when I have to explain to grown adults that staring is rude and makes people uncomfortable. C'mon dogg.
I already agree that staring is rude and makes people uncomfortable.

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 01:17

I already agree that staring is rude and makes people uncomfortable.

What is the issue here, then?

zoot_allures

19th October 2013, 01:22

What is the issue here, then?
Honestly, I'm not sure. It's not clear to me what people are disagreeing with at this point. (Hence my comment in my reply to Mariel that "you'll also need to let me know what they're relevant to - that is, what I've said that you disagree with that you think the comments in question will address".)

Quail

19th October 2013, 01:27

Well, I think people are disagreeing with the fact you can't even be bothered to read through the comments on the article to try and understand how women feel when they go out.

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 01:28

Honestly, I'm not sure. It's not clear to me what people are disagreeing with at this point.

Probably the fact that you said "sounds like she has problems" for feeling anxious about a dude staring at her. you were directed to the comments which would show you that it's not just this woman's one experience but a part of a general thing women have to deal with where they're regularly harassed by strangers in public. Because you don't want to read comments and I don't like anecdotes anyway, I linked a page with a bunch of studies that illustrate the issue of harassment faced by women all over the world.

So do you get it now?

zoot_allures

19th October 2013, 01:33

Well, I think people are disagreeing with the fact you can't even be bothered to read through the comments on the article to try and understand how women feel when they go out.
Yes, I'm aware that some people don't like my behaviour there. But presumably the comments are relevant to something else I've said that they dispute.

Probably the fact that you said "sounds like she has problems" for feeling anxious about a dude staring at her. you were directed to the comments which would show you that it's not just this woman's one experience but a part of a general thing women have to deal with where they're regularly harassed by strangers in public. Because you don't want to read comments and I don't like anecdotes anyway, I linked a page with a bunch of studies that illustrate the issue of harassment faced by women all over the world.
And I also said, a few posts later, that if harassment does in fact happen a lot in some situation, then it's understandable and reasonable to be worried about it happening again in that situation. So then the question becomes whether the woman who wrote the article has been harassed in on public transport before (or it's happened a lot to her friends or whatever), which of course I made no comment on (so nothing for people to disagree with there).

Edit - just using this post to let you all know I won't be responding to any more posts about my policy regarding reading comments. I do appreciate your point, synthesis, but when we're dealing with criticism of a particular view, in my view it's on those who give the criticism to make it specific (otherwise the discussion can just go all over the place, and people end up talking past each other, and so on).

synthesis

19th October 2013, 01:43

The problem, ZA, is that you've been looking at the story in the article as an isolated incident, while the comments give it more context and make it clear that it's not an isolated event. The issue with asking other people to pick and choose the comments they think are relevant is that you need to view them for yourself in order to see which stories make a difference to you - which no one else in this thread will be able to tell.

Astarte

19th October 2013, 02:05

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 02:10

Was it harassment for her to feel the eyes of a stranger on her?

Leering is harassment so uh I'm not sure what the point you're making here is.

The article is absurd liberal crap, frankly.

I am very interested in what makes this "liberal crap"

Astarte

19th October 2013, 02:12

Leering is harassment so uh I'm not sure what the point you're making here is.

I am very interested in what makes this "liberal crap"

I guess you will have to keep wondering. :ohmy: Secondly - I am not convinced he was "leering". How do relationships platonic or otherwise even begin? You see someone you are interested in interacting with. Perhaps he kept looking at her to figure out if she was open to talk or not - since she was giving off anti-social signals, she was not spoken to. Calling it leering is jumping to absurd conclusions.

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 02:14

I guess you will have to keep wondering.

"this is what i think and no i will not back it up. what the fuck do you think this is, a discussion???"

Decolonize The Left

19th October 2013, 02:15

People aren't mind readers, but she was giving plenty of signals she did not want to be approached, and she wasn't. Was it harassment for her to feel the eyes of a stranger on her? Most people who don't want to talk to random people in public make it abundantly clear, despite how attractive (she points out to herself she thinks she is the bee's knees) they are. The article is absurd liberal crap, frankly.

No one is saying that that woman was harassed on the train. What was being said is that the context of being a woman in society is not a comfortable one; it's another, perhaps more elegant as it involves a specific situation, explanation of how patriarchy and chauvinism impacts everyone, everyday.

Thirsty Crow

19th October 2013, 02:16

Sorry if I'm being obtuse, but I don't think I understand the point of that story. She's worried that the door-holder might talk to her?
No. The woman in the story was portrayed as experiencing a fear of a form of harassment - not that talking to someone constitutes this. Cues include incessant staring, the already built up tension (indicating the kind of personality) and knowledge of this general tendency of men hitting on women in less than pleasant ways ("I wish I was unattractive") and possibly assaulting them. The story is about that fear, and not harassment. So some reading with comprehension skills should enable people not to make an ass out of themselves with proclamations about the article being "liberal crap".

Quail

19th October 2013, 02:17

I guess you will have to keep wondering. :ohmy: Secondly - I am not convinced he was "leering". How do relationships platonic or otherwise even begin? You see someone you are interested in interacting with. Perhaps he kept looking at her to figure out if she was open to talk or not - since she was giving off anti-social signals, she was not spoken to. Calling it leering is jumping to absurd conclusions.
Uh, relationships very rarely begin with "leering"...

Astarte

19th October 2013, 02:22

"this is what i think and no i will not back it up. what the fuck do you think this is, a discussion???"

Attacking the content of patriarchy, which results from class society whilst ignoring class society as the root cause of patriarchical oppression is liberalism.

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 02:22

How do relationships platonic or otherwise even begin? You see someone you are interested in interacting with. Perhaps he kept looking at her to figure out if she was open to talk or not - since she was giving off anti-social signals, she was not spoken to. Calling it leering is jumping to absurd conclusions.

She said he was staring at her the entire time he was on the train, which isn't an uncommon thing for women to have to deal with by any stretch of the imagination.

Linksradikal really explained the entire thing very well in a post above -- I'm gonna direct you to that, since he said it better than I can now.

Attacking the content of patriarchy, which results from class society whilst ignoring class society as the root cause of patriarchical oppression is liberalism.

So you can never talk about sexism without shoehorning some explicitly marxist sloganeering in?

Quail

19th October 2013, 02:27

Attacking the content of patriarchy, which results from class society whilst ignoring class society as the root cause of patriarchical oppression is liberalism.
You can attack symptoms and causes simultaneously. To me, this sounds too much like, "You women should just wait until the revolution to do anything about your oppression - the glorious revolution will end patriarchy!" Fuck that, I want my life to be better in the short term too.

Astarte

19th October 2013, 02:27

Uh, relationships very rarely begin with "leering"...

The door-holder, who's already proven himself to have zero qualms about confronting strangers, is looking at you. You can see him in your peripheral vision and you can feel him looking.

"Looking at you" - he could have been looking at her because she accidentally had shit on the tip of her nose.

Definition of Leering:
leer
li(ə)r/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: leering
1.
look or gaze in an unpleasant, malicious, or lascivious way.

Only in her own mind was she convinced he was "leering" on account of how self-absorbed she is:

"You're at a distance, but your hair is pretty bright and you're wearing lipstick so you know he noticed you. Keep reading, keep looking down. You briefly wish you were less attractive or had mousy hair or had an invisibility cloak."

The leering is her own personal solipsism and is completely unsubstantiated by the reality of the events outside her own mind.

Thirsty Crow

19th October 2013, 02:28

Attacking the content of patriarchy, which results from class society whilst ignoring class society as the root cause of patriarchical oppression is liberalism.
Oh that's a shame that a story spanning I dunno half an A4 page didn't contain a well thought out analysis of the relationship between patriarchy and class division. But yeah, you're wrong anyway since it seems that you think you get to reinterpret the meaning of concepts in any way it suites what you want to argue, in this case, "liberalism".

"Looking at you" - he could have been looking at her because she accidentally had shit on the tip of her nose.

Maybe she had green complexion. And red shining eyes.

The leering is her own personal solipsism and is completely unsubstantiated by the reality of the events outside her own mind.
I think we've established much earlier that you are the last person who should be claiming something about material evidence. But hey y'know, it was maybe her occult capacities granting insight into a whole lot of stuff. Right?

Astarte

19th October 2013, 02:31

You can attack symptoms and causes simultaneously. To me, this sounds too much like, "You women should just wait until the revolution to do anything about your oppression - the glorious revolution will end patriarchy!" Fuck that, I want my life to be better in the short term too.

At anyrate, feminism whilst divorced from class conscious politics, as this article seems to be, is liberalism.

Quail

19th October 2013, 02:33

"Looking at you" - he could have been looking at her because she accidentally had shit on the tip of her nose.

Only in her own mind was she convinced he was "leering" on account of how self-absorbed she is:

The leering is her own personal solipsism and is completely unsubstantiated by the reality of the events outside her own mind.
You try having fucking arseholes leering at you all the time and harassing you and then tell me you don't feel intimidated when guys stare at you.

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 02:33

The leering is her own personal solipsism and is completely unsubstantiated by the reality of the events outside her own mind.

Even if it was, what does that have to say about our society and culture? Because this kind of anxiety is by no means unusual. There was a study done not long ago in which 100% of women surveyed in major metropolitan areas reported being harassed and made to feel uncomfortable by a male stranger while in a public place.

The point is sailing over your head, dogg.

Astarte

19th October 2013, 02:34

Oh that's a shame that a story spanning I dunno half an A4 page didn't contain a well thought out analysis of the relationship between patriarchy and class division. But yeah, you're wrong anyway since it seems that you think you get to reinterpret the meaning of concepts in any way it suites what you want to argue, in this case, "liberalism".

Are you honestly trying to claim the author is putting forward a Marxist analysis...? Or are you arguing it isn't a liberal article because it isn't putting a Marxist analysis forward because it is simply too short to put forward a Marxian analysis? Sounds like a dumb position to me.

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 02:35

At anyrate, feminism whilst divorced from class conscious politics, as this article seems to be, is liberalism.

It's a woman's personal account of feeling uncomfortable on a subway. I don't think someone needs to shoehorn in a treatise on patriarchy and class society when they're writing a half-page article about an experience they had and how it made them feel.

Astarte

19th October 2013, 02:39

Even if it was, what does that have to say about our society and culture? Because this kind of anxiety is by no means unusual. There was a study done not long ago in which 100% of women surveyed in major metropolitan areas reported being harassed and made to feel uncomfortable by a male stranger while in a public place.

The point is sailing over your head, dogg.

No, the point is not sailing over my head. I am a genetic male. For a long time I considered myself transgender and have gone out in public, sometimes "passing", some times not as the female gender more times than I can count. I know the feeling of being leered at, yelled at and taunted by men and women alike due to gender identity. I just think the article is liberal and though it demonstrates, yes, women suffer from anxiety due to patriarchy, it fails to explain WHY that is in terms of a class context - no one on this thread has pointed this out besides myself.

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 02:44

No, the point is not sailing over my head.... I just think the article is liberal and though it demonstrates, yes, women suffer from anxiety due to patriarchy, it fails to explain WHY that is in terms of a class context.

Naw, that point is still up there. I think what they were going for was to give an example of what a woman might experience in flatly human terms without theory or anything behind it to get the reader to empathize with what women experience or for other women to feel less alone in their experiences. You're looking at this like it's supposed to be a political treatise (liberal, marxist, or otherwise) and it's simply not.

If a person writes up a post about a situation in which were racially profiled, or about their problems at work or paying their bills and don't include a write-up on racism and the accumulation of capital or the exploitation or labor, are they just being liberals?

synthesis

19th October 2013, 02:52

It seems like there's no point in describing it as liberal or Marxist or anything else because it's not a political analysis and it doesn't put forward prescriptive political conclusions. It's just a plainly written story that illustrates a particular instance of a broader social phenomenon. If someone physically shows you a page from their diary about an experience they had, are you really going to lambast them for a lack of class consciousness in a half-page story about riding the light rail?

edit: Shit, #FF0000's post says basically the same thing. FML

Decolonize The Left

19th October 2013, 02:53

No, the point is not sailing over my head. I am a genetic male. For a long time I considered myself transgender and have gone out in public, sometimes "passing", some times not as the female gender more times than I can count. I know the feeling of being leered at, yelled at and taunted by men and women alike due to gender identity. I just think the article is liberal and though it demonstrates, yes, women suffer from anxiety due to patriarchy, it fails to explain WHY that is in terms of a class context - no one on this thread has pointed this out besides myself.

No one pointed it out because it didn't need to be pointed out. Jezebel isn't a Marxist, or even a leftist, website. The writer clearly isn't approaching the topic from that perspective. That isn't the point... in the slightest.

You are taking issue where there is none.

Astarte

19th October 2013, 02:56

Naw, that point is still up there. I think what they were going for was to give an example of what a woman might experience in flatly human terms without theory or anything behind it to get the reader to empathize with what women experience or for other women to feel less alone in their experiences. You're looking at this like it's supposed to be a political treatise (liberal, marxist, or otherwise) and it's simply not.

If a person writes up a post about a situation in which were racially profiled, or about their problems at work or paying their bills and don't include a write-up on racism and the accumulation of capital or the exploitation or labor, are they just being liberals?

The problem is, what kind of audience is the article being written for? Is it being written for people who are already class conscious, or people who think patriarchy, rather than class stratification and or statism is the ultimate source of coercion? As far as I can tell the article was written by a liberal website, for a predominately liberal audience. I do not think you can divorce the texts someone writes from their political consciousness which is ultimately drawn from their material conditions - i think their writings and their thought processes inherent in the writings will reveal their type of consciousness. The problems you mention, of paying bills and problems at work are constantly written about from the standpoint of liberals, social democrats and trade unionists without proletarian political consciousness - they ultimately result in moralizing and blaming personality traits of people as prime causes - like the article in question does "The door-holder, who's already proven himself to have zero qualms about confronting strangers" the whole issue reduces down to the faulty and chauvinistic personality of the boisterous "door-holder" rather than the "1000 cuts" that is life in capitalist society, of which patriarchy, though a prime and deep gash, is only one. Likewise, racism stems from imperialism, and has been written about quite often from a nationalist or even national liberationist perspective - so, mind you, I am not saying the article is reactionary - I am just calling it out as what it is "progressive liberalisms" - nothing more, nothing less... a liberal anecdote if you will. I will concede "liberal crap" was overly harsh - simply "liberal" would have been sufficient.

Thirsty Crow

19th October 2013, 03:13

It seems like there's no point in describing it as liberal or Marxist or anything else because it's not a political analysis and it doesn't put forward prescriptive political conclusions.
Can't stress this enough. Pretty much sinks all this "liberal crap".
Liberalism is a real thing. Talking about liberal articles in the sense of the one outlined here is obfuscatory.

And another thing, it took me some 20 minutes to reach a post outlining the deal with holding the door in Washington metro, and the way it is an asshole thing to do. So that's definitely another cue.

Astarte

19th October 2013, 03:15

Can't stress this enough. Pretty much sinks all this "liberal crap".
Liberalism is a real thing. Talking about liberal articles in the sense of the one outlined here is obfuscatory.

And another thing, it took me some 20 minutes to reach a post outlining the deal with holding the door in Washington metro, and the way it is an asshole thing to do. So that's definitely another cue.

It is absurd and frankly, idealist, to think anything human, even opinion, can exist in a vacuum free from political sentiments...

synthesis

19th October 2013, 03:33

It is absurd and frankly, idealist, to think anything human, even opinion, can exist in a vacuum free from political sentiments...

Just because it can't necessarily be pigeonholed as "liberal" or "Marxist" or whatever doesn't mean it's not political. Just that it's not political in the way you'd like it to be.

Radio Spartacus

19th October 2013, 03:37

It is absurd and frankly, idealist, to think anything human, even opinion, can exist in a vacuum free from political sentiments...

It's also absurd to point out every time an article that isn't explicitly Marxist is posted. There are plenty of things written that aren't Marxist that I enjoy reading and learn from. It's honestly a bit condescending to come in and point out that you're the first to mention the class factors of patriarchy in the thread. I'm fairly certain we all know about class and the patriarchy, there's a reason it hasn't come up.

Additionally, your earlier attempt to portray women who feel uncomfortable on the subway as solipsist lunatics is pretty thinly veiled victim blaming.

Thirsty Crow

19th October 2013, 03:37

It is absurd and frankly, idealist, to think anything human, even opinion, can exist in a vacuum free from political sentiments...
Ironic, you accusing someone of idealism. But we all know by now that consistency is only a deadweight.

And do please show me where I claim, of even imply that opinions exist in a vacuum free from political sentiments.

To help you out, I'll quote synthesis again:

It seems like there's no point in describing it as liberal or Marxist or anything else because it's not a political analysis and it doesn't put forward prescriptive political conclusions.And also back to my earlier comment about people's skills in reading with comprehension.

Astarte

19th October 2013, 03:58

Just because a text does not overtly speak in political language and is only anecdotal does not mean that the political and class sentiments of the writer are not embedded in it, even by way of the seeming absence of those things. To think that apolitical anecdotes can even be separated from the political and class consciousness of their authors is idealism, and anti-dialectical.

It seems like there's no point in describing it as liberal or Marxist or anything else because it's not a political analysis and it doesn't put forward prescriptive political conclusions.

Its an anecdotal analysis - that is the point - liberalism relies on anecdotes, moralisms, and "non-political analysis" - I suppose by this line of thinking there is no point in describing anything that alleges to be "non-political" in a Marxian light. I suppose if I were to call Walt Whitman's poetry, or Charles Dicken's novels "liberal/bourgeois sentimentalism" you would also take issue with that, since those things are "non-political!!!!".

Radio Spartacus

19th October 2013, 04:00

Just because a text does not overtly speak in political language and is only anecdotal does not mean that the political and class sentiments of the writer are not embedded in it.

Its an anecdotal analysis - that is the point - liberalism relies on anecdotes, moralisms, and "non-political analysis" - I suppose by this line of thinking there is no point in describing anything that alleges to be "non-political" in a Marxian light.

Yes, every discussion of oppression must start out by INSTANTLY addressing class issues. These discussions operate on different levels, you seem pretty out of touch here.

Astarte

19th October 2013, 04:05

Yes, every discussion of oppression must start out by INSTANTLY addressing class issues. These discussions operate on different levels, you seem pretty out of touch here.

Perhaps I am not out of touch with Marxism so much as you are "in touch" moreso with the liberal methodology of presenting arguments as anecdotal and moralizing, rather than relying on historical materialism and class analysis? It doesn't need to start out "INSTANTLY" addressing issues from a historical materialist basis - but if it just ends, and never gets there, it is hard to call it, at best, anything other than liberal without blushing - especially when it is being published on a liberal website, for a liberal audience taking the form of an anecdote, and employing a moralistic critique of the event presented.

Halert

19th October 2013, 04:12

At first my reaction was very similar to that of zoot_allures, but after reading some comments i got it, it's not about this single case but about the general anxiety woman feel in public because men feel the need to come on to them all the time.

However i'm not so sure what we can do about this. Apart from fighting the patriarchy, the problem is destroying the patriarchy takes a while and doesn't help women now.

Radio Spartacus

19th October 2013, 04:32

Perhaps I am not out of touch with Marxism so much as you are "in touch" moreso with the liberal methodology of presenting arguments as anecdotal and moralizing, rather than relying on historical materialism and class analysis? It doesn't need to start out "INSTANTLY" addressing issues from a historical materialist basis - but if it just ends, and never gets there, it is hard to call it, at best, anything other than liberal without blushing - especially when it is being published on a liberal website, for a liberal audience taking the form of an anecdote, and employing a moralistic critique of the event presented.

You're assuming a lot about my politics based on the fact that I think that this article can be valuable without containing class analysis. This article simply provides a woman's perspective on feeling discomfort in public. Is that all we need to know about women's struggles? Of course not. Without theory based on class analysis and materialism the women's movement is going to be stuck with bourgeois feminism and neither of us sees that as productive.

That said, I can pair my primary Marxist arguments with the fact that as a human being I don't like that my fellow human beings are being made uncomfortable. I also appreciate that there is a forum for them to discuss this fact in a manner that isn't necessarily Marxist, just as I sometimes will talk about a bad day I had in college without bringing up that college is a system of social stratification and such. The article does not need to examine every facet of the issue.

human strike

19th October 2013, 16:34

But what does that have to do with being a woman specifically? Anxiety in social situations is, unfortunately, fairy pervasive in both genders.

It just seems to me that being worried that somebody might talk to you is a mental issue that you need to sort out for yourself, rather than anything to do with your gender. I don't mean to be rude, and I still feel like I'm missing something here...

It's clearly not general social situations that are making her anxious but situations with men she doesn't know. I can't speak for women but I don't think it's too much for me to say that all interactions women have with men are backed up with the threat of violence. This isn't simply social anxiety because it is gendered and reflects societal power relations. It's a privilege to be blind to the gendered way in which people relate to each other; it means you're probably on the winning side of the power relation.

JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa

19th October 2013, 16:49

OK, I am just going to say this. I hold the door for everyone, because I am a nice person. If you want to be a complete socially awkward ass because someone was nice enough to hold the door open for you, you need to stop blaming your own shit on other people.

Where I work women hold doors for me, I hold them for them, it is normal, the only place I know of where ive been that people don't hold doors is in America. Then again i was mostly in a casino so maybe I shouldn't judge America because some degenerate Gambler had a bad day and slammed the door on me.

Seriously though I get alot of things about the article, one would be women in the weight room, her scenario would work there, another would be in crowds, like football matches. But I think alot of stuff put out like this is basically making their shitty social awkwardness, or situation out to be directly correlated to their Gender, which I don't hate them for, I jut disagree.

I for example am a social nightmare, I can go to kickboxing all happy and I can go on a date and be all confident and fuck and be secure but if I am in a social situation with a stranger, like oaying on my card to fill up my tank, I start panicking and stumbling over my words and feel terrified.

I used my position as a minimum wage worker for a lot of my problems and insecurities but I think the truth is we make alot of our problems ourselves and this shit right here, where you try and find reasons to decry patriarchy and find a self-righteous angle in every situation is just idle, useless nothingness.

My mother getting paid less to do the same jon she is more proficient at than others she works with is an example of patriarchy.

My girlfirend being told not tp go out in a short dress is.

My Nana being kept at home and then marrying and being a subservient housewife for 50 years is.

Me holding a door open for you is me trying to be nice to a person, whether I hold it for a guy or a woman.

By the way I just want to say that was one of the better feminist pieces I have read and appreciate the viewpoint. I am honestly a bit of a meathead in alot of ways but I did think the article was very good at conveying the female POV without being too preachy.

My only problem with these things is they seem to lump all women together, one of my exes was a clothing model, big breasts, long blonde hair, stunning, wore skimpy clothes and loved flirting with people, loved being what would be a stereotypical girly girl and having the man look after me kinda think in her life.

She would not get nervous if men stared at her, she was insanely hot and knew men would stare, she liked it. She liked what is thought of as patriachal chivalry even, so my question is, was she sexist or was she supporting patriachy and if lots of girls like patriarchal social constructs is patriachy always bad in your opinion?

I know guys for example who aren't into bdsm or cuckolding or any of that sexual fantasy stuff but just like and are drawn to dominant, women, they like women who make decisions and are the primary partner, so to speak.

If the majority of guys were into that and I wasn't but women still hit on me all the time and said I had a nice ass, I don't really see how that would affect me. then again I am not dealing with it on a daily basis, however, honestly its not a fair comparison because men don't see being sexually touched, being called sexy or having their ass spanked as violating or wrong, but would love it.

I have had a coworker rub her hand on my ass the first week I was there and I fucking loved it, I was like bragging about it at work and acting like I was Patrick Swayze in road house.

If I had done that to a girl I would of been fired. And I get being fired for it, but when she did it to me I never dreamed of getting her fired for acting like she wanted to fuck me, I would like a place I can go and ask all these manlet questions to a feminist where I wouldn't be banned or deemed a rapist in waiting, because I think the number one reason guys think feminism is bullshit is because we don't ask questions because we can't be bother with the typical response from feminists or men online who call themselves male feminists. Which is the creepiest fucking thing I have ever hear :D

Thirsty Crow

19th October 2013, 16:59

human strike

19th October 2013, 17:24

OK, I am just going to say this. I hold the door for everyone, because I am a nice person. If you want to be a complete socially awkward ass because someone was nice enough to hold the door open for you, you need to stop blaming your own shit on other people.

Where I work women hold doors for me, I hold them for them, it is normal, the only place I know of where ive been that people don't hold doors is in America. Then again i was mostly in a casino so maybe I shouldn't judge America because some degenerate Gambler had a bad day and slammed the door on me.

Seriously though I get alot of things about the article, one would be women in the weight room, her scenario would work there, another would be in crowds, like football matches. But I think alot of stuff put out like this is basically making their shitty social awkwardness, or situation out to be directly correlated to their Gender, which I don't hate them for, I jut disagree.

I for example am a social nightmare, I can go to kickboxing all happy and I can go on a date and be all confident and fuck and be secure but if I am in a social situation with a stranger, like oaying on my card to fill up my tank, I start panicking and stumbling over my words and feel terrified.

I used my position as a minimum wage worker for a lot of my problems and insecurities but I think the truth is we make alot of our problems ourselves and this shit right here, where you try and find reasons to decry patriarchy and find a self-righteous angle in every situation is just idle, useless nothingness.

My mother getting paid less to do the same jon she is more proficient at than others she works with is an example of patriarchy.

My girlfirend being told not tp go out in a short dress is.

My Nana being kept at home and then marrying and being a subservient housewife for 50 years is.

Me holding a door open for you is me trying to be nice to a person, whether I hold it for a guy or a woman.

By the way I just want to say that was one of the better feminist pieces I have read and appreciate the viewpoint. I am honestly a bit of a meathead in alot of ways but I did think the article was very good at conveying the female POV without being too preachy.

My only problem with these things is they seem to lump all women together, one of my exes was a clothing model, big breasts, long blonde hair, stunning, wore skimpy clothes and loved flirting with people, loved being what would be a stereotypical girly girl and having the man look after me kinda think in her life.

She would not get nervous if men stared at her, she was insanely hot and knew men would stare, she liked it. She liked what is thought of as patriachal chivalry even, so my question is, was she sexist or was she supporting patriachy and if lots of girls like patriarchal social constructs is patriachy always bad in your opinion?

I know guys for example who aren't into bdsm or cuckolding or any of that sexual fantasy stuff but just like and are drawn to dominant, women, they like women who make decisions and are the primary partner, so to speak.

Do you really think that you as a man have any right to tell women that their anxieites are not caused by gender when they've explicitly told you that they are? How the fuck do you know?

If the majority of guys were into that and I wasn't but women still hit on me all the time and said I had a nice ass, I don't really see how that would affect me. then again I am not dealing with it on a daily basis, however, honestly its not a fair comparison because men don't see being sexually touched, being called sexy or having their ass spanked as violating or wrong, but would love it.

This is a myth and gender stereotype that maintains masculinity and oppressive gender relations. The few times I have been violated by strangers in this way I have not loved it in any respect and fucking hated it actually. Never touch anyone without their consent, especially in a sexual way!

Also, way to ignore the experiences of anyone who isn't heterosexual.

JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa

19th October 2013, 17:36

Do you really think that you as a man have any right to tell women that their anxieites are not caused by gender when they've explicitly told you that they are? How the fuck do you know?

This is a myth and gender stereotype that maintains masculinity and oppressive gender relations. The few times I have been violated by strangers in this way I have not loved it in any respect and fucking hated it actually. Never touch anyone without their consent, especially in a sexual way!

Also, way to ignore the experiences of anyone who isn't heterosexual.

So if a guy grabs your ass and a woman grabs mine, are we equal victims?

Did you even read what I said ?

I had my ass grabbed at work and liked it, though she had no consent to do so, should she be charged with sexual assault?

Also, the idea I am a man so I can not comment on what makes women uncomfortable??/ I believe I have the right to make you feel uncomfortable by staring at you. That is not up for debate that is not against the law anywhere.

Also, believe it or not its not only women who get stared at, women do stare at sexy men you know. It is pretty common to gawp at sexy people. Women stare at guys in clubs or a big shredded guy on the train all the time. Why is one being an insensitive asshole the other is not?

JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa

19th October 2013, 17:54

Do you really think that you as a man have any right to tell women that their anxieites are not caused by gender when they've explicitly told you that they are? How the fuck do you know?

Do you have any right to tell nationalists they are not second class citizens in their own country now that muslims are here, even though they've told you they are? How would you know?

See how that rationale works, it is what people throw up when they have crap arguement abilities.

It is the non Vietnam reiteration of, you don't know man, you weren't there!!!

Also yes I do have the right to tell anyone I want, whatever I want. It is called free speech. Do you think I don't have the right to say anything I want? That is hardly a very progressive attitude is it, rather authoritarian, like patriarchy, some might say. Do you have the right to say I don't have the right to say?

JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa

19th October 2013, 17:57

This is a myth and gender stereotype that maintains masculinity and oppressive gender relations. The few times I have been violated by strangers in this way I have not loved it in any respect and fucking hated it actually. Never touch anyone without their consent, especially in a sexual way!

Also, way to ignore the experiences of anyone who isn't heterosexual.

I just told you I was sexually assaulted but I liked it, A woman ran her hands over my arse, no consent, she c=acted like I was an object to grope. How is that different from me slapping a womans arse, you did not address it.

Most men would not see a woman slapping their ass as sexual harassment and would feel horrible if a woman got fired for grabbing their ass.

human strike

19th October 2013, 18:07

I never said they were the same. Obviously the context of patriarchy and male domination and violence against women changes the dynamic. This is also why your analogy of telling nationalists they're wrong is stupid - nationalists are not oppressed, women are and by men like you and myself which is why we shouldn't ever tell them they're wrong about their own experiences of sexism.

And so what if leering at people isn't illegal - something doesn't stop being oppressive simply because it's legal and this board isn't for discussing issues within that kind of a bullshit context. Fuck you and your rights given to you by patriarchal legal institutions.

JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa

19th October 2013, 18:17

I never said they were the same. Obviously the context of patriarchy and male domination and violence against women changes the dynamic. This is also why your analogy of telling nationalists they're wrong is stupid - nationalists are not oppressed, women are and by men like you and myself which is why we shouldn't ever tell them they're wrong about their own experiences of sexism.

So if a woman sexually assaults another woman, what is that?

This categorising the exact same fucking act as more or less bad on someones gender or race is fucking stupid. How about you judge a person on what the fuck they do?

Thirsty Crow

19th October 2013, 18:19

I just told you I was sexually assaulted but I liked it, A woman ran her hands over my arse, no consent, she c=acted like I was an object to grope. How is that different from me slapping a womans arse, you did not address it.Your personal experience is irrelevant here since sexual harassment is predominantly experienced by women, and it is reasonable to assume that it is received as really terrifying practically every time it occurs. The difference is to be found in diffuse and non-institutionalized male dominance.

Most men would not see a woman slapping their ass as sexual harassment and would feel horrible if a woman got fired for grabbing their ass.Which means....what exactly?
But to counter this, I would, as a non-macho, somewhat atypical man, definitely feel uncomfortable in that position. Care to claim something on my gender identity?

JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa

19th October 2013, 18:24

JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa

19th October 2013, 18:42

Your personal experience is irrelevant here since sexual harassment is predominantly experienced by women, and it is reasonable to assume that it is received as really terrifying practically every time it occurs. The difference is to be found in diffuse and non-institutionalized male dominance.

Which means....what exactly?
But to counter this, I would, as a non-macho, somewhat atypical man, definitely feel uncomfortable in that position. Care to claim something on my gender identity?

You Identify as A woman? Is that what you are saying? If so I don't care, what people do to their body or how they view themselves is none of my fucking business.

Also I am hardly macho, if that is what you are implying, I just don't see someone grabbing my arse as bad. Now I understand why it would be for women becuase men are physically superior to women n general so men can rape women where as for the most part women can not rape a man. Although recently a guy did, I thing he was a black German dude who claimed some woman forced him to have sex for 11 hours.

See I just laughed at that, I laughed at rape, but as men most of us who read that article laughed, yet I find men raping women horrendous.

Same when a guy had his cock chopped off and put in a waste processor, if that had been a giy chopping a womans titty off and throwing it into a bladed sink to be ripped up it would be horrific, but me and all the guys I know laughed our ass off at the woman throwing dudes dick away.

I just find the difference in how violence is horrendous when aimed against women but I can watch a dude being beheaded on the internet and it barely even fazes me. Yet when I watch something like a rape scene on TV i Get angry at the rapist. but pulp fiction rape scene made everyone in the room openly laugh when I watched it.

Its almost like pussy is way more valuable than cock, any woman can get cock but its hard to get pussy.
I think just like the bourgeoisie had sewn the seeds of its own distraction, males have sewn their seeds of destruction by inflating the value of vagina way above the the Value of penis.

I think with the demise of religion and the full embracement of sex, women will for the first time have the most power in society.

baronci

19th October 2013, 18:42

I just told you I was sexually assaulted but I liked it, A woman ran her hands over my arse, no consent, she c=acted like I was an object to grope. How is that different from me slapping a womans arse, you did not address it.

Most men would not see a woman slapping their ass as sexual harassment and would feel horrible if a woman got fired for grabbing their ass.

this anecdote is completely irrelevant since our society is made so that women are made to feel inferior to men

JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa

19th October 2013, 18:44

You still did not answer whether or not a woman grabbing another womans ass was as bad as a man grabbing a womans ass.

If they are both women and none have "gender dominance" is there now a victim, if she gropes a female instead of a man, is she now a sex offender?

JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa

19th October 2013, 18:48

this anecdote is completely irrelevant since our society is made so that women are made to feel inferior to men

Where the fuck do you live? England 1855?

Women do not feel inferior, they know they are sexy, smart and have power over men because we will do anything to fuck them.

What you said is sexist, you are saying all women feel the same!

All the young women I know don't feel inferior to men, they don't compare themselves to men because they are normal people with lives. You ask most women what a feminist looks like, she will tell you ugly or has problems.

Most women like to fuck, like to get a good education and do not feel inferior. Don't put your political dogma on them.

I have an aunty Helen and she is this outspoken feminist, all the women in my family take the piss because she can't get man, can't get her life together and she is bitter and this is the reason she rails against patriarchy, yet she doesn't have any experience with men because men aren't interested in her out of shape old ass.

Why are the majority of feminists people who have shitty lives or are overweight, or have mental health issues.

Why is it never the normal, likes to go out and have fun woman who gets attention off the boys who is a feminist?

Nina Hartley is the only cool feminist and most feminists hate her.

Thirsty Crow

19th October 2013, 18:59

You Identify as A woman? Is that what you are saying? If so I don't care, what people do to their body or how they view themselves is none of my fucking business.
I'm a male, and a mostly heterosexual male at that. But boy did I actually know that this kind of crap is coming.

Also I am hardly macho, if that is what you are implying,Well, I'm not implying, but actually stating that you're under the influence of a specific kind of cultural and ideological pressures which structure the way you think about these issues.

I just don't see someone grabbing my arse as bad. Fine and dandy. But do understand that this is completely irrelevant.

I understand why it would be for women becuase men are physically superior to women n general so men can rape women where as for the most part women can not rape a man. Although recently a guy did, I thing he was a black German dude who claimed some woman forced him to have sex for 11 hours.
There is more to it than this. You'd do yourself a favor if you read the comments in the article posted.

And of course men can be raped.

See I just laughed at that, I laughed at rape, but as men most of us who read that article laughed, yet I find men raping women horrendous.Did you laugh about a hypothetical where a man rapes a woman or vice versa? Anyway, there's nothing to laugh about here, in any case.

Same when a guy had his cock chopped off and put in a waste processor, if that had been a giy chopping a womans titty off and throwing it into a bladed sink to be ripped up it would be horrific, but me and all the guys I know laughed our ass off at the woman throwing dudes dick away.
That's just fucked up. Both the assault and your reaction.

I just find the difference in how violence is horrendous when aimed against women but I can watch a dude being beheaded on the internet and it barely even fazes me. Try having your neighbors bombed to pieces, try to talk to their parents and siblings, and then come here again with these comments.

Anyway, I'm done. Too depressed to continue since I might say something like "fuck off you piece of shit and rot", and we would not want that.

Taters

19th October 2013, 19:06

Where the fuck do you live? England 1855?

Women do not feel inferior, they know they are sexy, smart and have power over men because we will do anything to fuck them.

What you said is sexist, you are saying all women feel the same!

All the young women I know don't feel inferior to men, they don't compare themselves to men because they are normal people with lives. You ask most women what a feminist looks like, she will tell you ugly or has problems.

Most women like to fuck, like to get a good education and do not feel inferior. Don't put your political dogma on them.

I have an aunty Helen and she is this outspoken feminist, all the women in my family take the piss because she can't get man, can't get her life together and she is bitter and this is the reason she rails against patriarchy, yet she doesn't have any experience with men because men aren't interested in her out of shape old ass.

Why are the majority of feminists people who have shitty lives or are overweight, or have mental health issues.

Why is it never the normal, likes to go out and have fun woman who gets attention off the boys who is a feminist?

Nina Hartley is the only cool feminist and most feminists hate her.

I'll give you a 5/10 for trolling. Also, you're fucked in the head.

JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa

19th October 2013, 19:06

I'm a male, and a mostly heterosexual male at that. But boy did I actually know that this kind of crap is coming.

Well, I'm not implying, but actually stating that you're under the influence of a specific kind of cultural and ideological pressures which structure the way you think about these issues.

Fine and dandy. But do understand that this is completely irrelevant.

There is more to it than this. You'd do yourself a favor if you read the comments in the article posted.

And of course men can be raped.

Did you laugh about a hypothetical where a man rapes a woman or vice versa? Anyway, there's nothing to laugh about here, in any case.

That's just fucked up. Both the assault and your reaction.

Try having your neighbors bombed to pieces, try to talk to their parents and siblings, and then come here again with these comments.

Anyway, I'm done. Too depressed to continue since I might say something like "fuck off you piece of shit and rot", and we would not want that.

funny thing is, pretty much all the working class men of the world share the same disgusting sense of humor, the same view on women and life, I don't know any man you would find not in need of rotting and dying.

I am being myself on here and talk like I do in real life, but you wouldn't dare tell someone to fuck off and rot in real life because we just said what we said. You are a coward, who hides behind a keyboard, like all the stalinists and liberals, but if you started spouting that shit at the pub you would get the hsit beat out of you so in real life you just sit there quiet.

Also, you just capitulated the point when you pretty much said fuck off and die, so, go on www.imright.com and find something that backs up your argument and come back.

Thirsty Crow

19th October 2013, 19:17

funny thing is, pretty much all the working class men of the world share the same disgusting sense of humor, the same view on women and life, I don't know any man you would find not in need of rotting and dying.
Except the ones who'd been to war, seen their friends brutally murdered, were themselves dismembered or so psychologically scarred as to commit suicide. And yeah, all of this comes from the vault of personal experience you imbecile piece of crap.

I am being myself on here and talk like I do in real life, but you wouldn't dare tell someone to fuck off and rot in real life because we just said what we said.Try me.

You are a coward, who hides behind a keyboard, like all the stalinists and liberals, but if you started spouting that shit at the pub you would get the hsit beat out of you so in real life you just sit there quiet.You mean, at the pub in my hometown where most of the veterans gather? Maybe the one that was bombed by a guy diagnosed with PTSD?

Also, you just capitulated the point when you pretty much said fuck off and die, so, go on www.imright.com (http://www.imright.com) and find something that backs up your argument and come back.That's sweet honey.

JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa

19th October 2013, 19:23

Except the ones who'd been to war, seen their friends brutally murdered, were themselves dismembered or so psychologically scarred as to commit suicide. And yeah, all of this comes from the vault of personal experience you imbecile piece of crap.

Try me.

You mean, at the pub in my hometown where most of the veterans gather? Maybe the one that was bombed by a guy diagnosed with PTSD?

That's sweet honey.

LOL what does war have to do with my point?

Also, soldiers go kill people for a wage, rape, steal, generally brutalise, and you are complaining I don't agree with certain feminist points. You gave up your right to breath oxygen when you took part in the murder of a whole people, I wouldn't be able to live with myself had I done that, I would probably kill myself.

The entire third world hates you, you go and kill their children for money, don't you feel ashamed? Is that why you compensate now trying to be the good woman protector? Because you are so guilt riddled about all the women raped and murdered because of people like you?

FYI, in the street, you don't have an m16 to stop someone taking you down and choking your lights out.

Thirsty Crow

19th October 2013, 19:30

LOL what does war have to do with my point?Your point is that workers worldwide share that imbecile sense of humor you seem to groom. While the truth is they did murder each other, and lived with the consequences, or killed themselves, and didn't find that crap funny.

Also, soldiers go kill people for a wage, rape, steal, generally brutalise, and you are complaining I don't agree with certain feminist points. You gave up your right to breath oxygen when you took part in the murder of a whole people, I wouldn't be able to live with myself had I done that, I would probably kill myself.
You're really a stupid being, aren't you?

To make it clear, I was 4-8 years old at that time. But talking to people and attending funerals of those who did that and committed suicide afterwards makes you think a bit differently than people like you.

The entire third world hates you, you go and kill their children for money, don't you feel ashamed? Is that why you compensate now trying to be the good woman protector? Because you are so guilt riddled about all the women raped and murdered because of people like you?That's really interesting. So you assume I'm an American or from the core European countries? Nice try, and nice pose by the way.

But no, you're just rambling.

JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa

19th October 2013, 19:34

Your point is that workers worldwide share that imbecile sense of humor you seem to groom. While the truth is they did murder each other, and lived with the consequences, or killed themselves, and didn't find that crap funny.

You're really a stupid being, aren't you?

To make it clear, I was 4-8 years old at that time. But talking to people and attending funerals of those who did that and committed suicide afterwards makes you think a bit differently than people like you.
That's really interesting. So you assume I'm an American or from the core European countries? Nice try, and nice pose by the way.

But no, you're just rambling.

My brother is in the British Armed Forced going on 12 years, He watches the same shit as me and laughs at the same shit as I do.

And yes, if he dies in Afghanistan fuck him, He knows he's murdering for money and is willing to take the chance.

Thirsty Crow

19th October 2013, 19:40

My brother is in the British Armed Forced going on 12 years, He watches the same shit as me and laughs at the same shit as I do.
A psychopath or a reservist training the Afghan forces.

So yeah, why don't you fuck off already?

synthesis

19th October 2013, 19:45

See I just laughed at that, I laughed at rape, but as men most of us who read that article laughed, yet I find men raping women horrendous.

Same when a guy had his cock chopped off and put in a waste processor, if that had been a giy chopping a womans titty off and throwing it into a bladed sink to be ripped up it would be horrific, but me and all the guys I know laughed our ass off at the woman throwing dudes dick away.

I just find the difference in how violence is horrendous when aimed against women but I can watch a dude being beheaded on the internet and it barely even fazes me. Yet when I watch something like a rape scene on TV i Get angry at the rapist. but pulp fiction rape scene made everyone in the room openly laugh when I watched it.

Its almost like pussy is way more valuable than cock, any woman can get cock but its hard to get pussy.
I think just like the bourgeoisie had sewn the seeds of its own distraction, males have sewn their seeds of destruction by inflating the value of vagina way above the the Value of penis.

Wow, well, uh, thanks for being honest, I guess. But this really has more to do with the sexist concept of "chivalry" than any supposed state of liberation for women.

JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa

19th October 2013, 20:12

Wow, well, uh, thanks for being honest, I guess. But this really has more to do with the sexist concept of "chivalry" than any supposed state of liberation for women.

Heres the thing, I am not claiming not to be something I am not. I am probably ignorant on alot of subjects on feminism, I don't deny this. I am also not going to lie about my views, which most feminists would claim to be offensive. I just want an actual discussion about it with being told to fuck off and die, most feminists, well, nearly all have been men saying they are feminists, can not understand that people disagree on things and if you don't say i agree with all the points they just shout fuck off and tell you what an asshole you are. This is because the anonymity of the internet makes people act like fucking assholes and talk to people like they never would in real life.

Another problem I have is the fact that feminism seems more about left wing politics than it does about advancing the struggle for female equality. It is the same with the trans community. I fully support the right of someone to have a sex change, I will call you a woman/man, I won't treat you in a nasty way because you did what the fuck you want to do with your life.

But then it becomes you can't say that trans women are any different than a "cis" woman. Then it becomes, fallon fox should be able to get a sex change and fight "cis" women, despite having a huge advantage based on bone structure, bone, density, reaction rates etc that she has over these other women.

This trans fighter did not inform the athletic commission she was a transwoman, she knocked opponents out in seconds, no technique, just ragdolled them, it was ridiculous to see her frame ragdolling these women.

Then everyone found out she used to be a man, and the women she beat the fuck out of were pissed, the entire MMA community was pissed at her for this. Yet a large percentage of the trans community came out saying she should not be made out to be anything other than a female and her surgery was not an issue.

Apparently anyone saying she should have had to disclose the fact she has a massive advantage is a transphobic asshole and needs to fucking die yada yada

Now, endocrinologists have come out and refuted the claims of the trans community who were saying all here advantages were reversed because of the HRT, which these endocrinologists have shown with measured bone density reduction, reaction times etc which does not drop off anywhere near as much as the trans community bleated out with zero evidence.

Now they are saying it doesn't matter because it is not important because she is a woman and has to be seen as that, this is the problem, a lot of the and I hate this phrase because it downplays the struggles but "identity politics" or LGBT groups are not operating or debating with facts or truth but its arguing for a certain ideological line which is just bullshit.

I feel a lot is the same with feminist arguments, it always comes to something either improve able or an "unreported statistic" or a grand old culture to censor comedians or get someone fired.

human strike

19th October 2013, 20:54

I am probably ignorant on alot of subjects on feminism.

You don't say?

This is because the anonymity of the internet makes people act like fucking assholes and talk to people like they never would in real life.

I hope this is true of you.

Another problem I have is the fact that feminism seems more about left wing politics than it does about advancing the struggle for female equality.

...

I feel a lot is the same with feminist arguments, it always comes to something either improve able or an "unreported statistic" or a grand old culture to censor comedians or get someone fired.

But you admitted yourself that you know fuck all about feminism so shut the fuck up and start listening to women, you might learn something and get over your sense of entitlement to an opinion on stuff that affects people oppressed by you that you know shit all about.

JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa

19th October 2013, 21:05

You don't say?

I hope this is true of you.

But you admitted yourself that you know fuck all about feminism so shut the fuck up and start listening to women, you might learn something and get over your sense of entitlement to an opinion on stuff that affects people oppressed by you that you know shit all about.

Way to prove my point. stop talking for women you paternalistic weirdo. I admitted women, not you, women, have a much better debating skill set than creeps like you who try and play white mans burden with women.

I don't want your opinion. I want to talk to a woman feminist. You are so desperate for meaning in your life you are derailing a thread with insults and imbecilic stings of swear words with zero insight.

Go away and have fun instead of making everyone uncomfortable in your desperate bid to make people on the progressive team like you.

Someone posts a nice, well mannered post and you jump in to derail it, because why let feminists discuss feminism when you can huh guy. Invalid.

JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa

19th October 2013, 21:07

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 21:08

I had my ass grabbed at work and liked it, though she had no consent to do so, should she be charged with sexual assault?

Nope, but even though some people don't consider something an invasion of personal space in certain situations doesn't mean everyone will, obviously. And no one's saying all women feel a certain way here (though it's easy to express something like that without realizing it in these kinds of discussions).

But the fact of the matter is that women, by and large, feel a lot less safe in everyday public places than men do. I posted some studies back on the second page that demonstrated this, showing a huge (~30%) difference in the amount of women who said they felt safe walking outside at night compared to men, and another roundup of studies that show how prevalent harassment is on the street.

Of course, no one's saying that all women feel this way or that men are never made to feel uncomfortable in public spaces, but there is a clear trend here, with women dealing with harassment way more often (specifically from men, as well) and feeling made to feel uncomfortable in public spaces. So yeah, of course it's a gender issue.

funny thing is, pretty much all the working class men of the world share the same disgusting sense of humor, the same view on women and life, I don't know any man you would find not in need of rotting and dying.

Naw there's just a lot of dopey motherfuckers who happen to be working class dudes.

There's a lot of dopey motherfuckers in general.

Women do not feel inferior, they know they are sexy, smart and have power over men because we will do anything to fuck them.

There are people who are that confident in themselves and their femininity or whatever, but I don't think people who feel like they have power would avoid walking certain routes (well populated, in a "good, safe neighborhood" or not) or walking alone.

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 21:10

thread also kinda demonstrates what I hate re: talking about gender politics, with how being wrong = being a bad person and makes it okay to go into personal attacks rather than address points (points that are pretty easy to address imo).

JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa

19th October 2013, 21:23

Nope, but even though some people don't consider something an invasion of personal space in certain situations doesn't mean everyone will, obviously. And no one's saying all women feel a certain way here (though it's easy to express something like that without realizing it in these kinds of discussions).

But the fact of the matter is that women, by and large, feel a lot less safe in everyday public places than men do. I posted some studies back on the second page that demonstrated this, showing a huge (~30%) difference in the amount of women who said they felt safe walking outside at night compared to men, and another roundup of studies that show how prevalent harassment is on the street.

Of course, no one's saying that all women feel this way or that men are never made to feel uncomfortable in public spaces, but there is a clear trend here, with women dealing with harassment way more often (specifically from men, as well) and feeling made to feel uncomfortable in public spaces. So yeah, of course it's a gender issue.

Naw there's just a lot of dopey motherfuckers who happen to be working class dudes.

There's a lot of dopey motherfuckers in general.

There are people who are that confident in themselves and their femininity or whatever, but I don't think people who feel like they have power would avoid walking certain routes (well populated, in a "good, safe neighborhood" or not) or walking alone.

You see yeah I agree that women are discriminated against in society, I also agree they are fit into a box that stereotyped roles are expected of them and yes this is patriarchal. However men are fit into a box b y patriarchy and in my opinion women are not exactly second class citizens in my country.

Women enjoy massive advantages in the courts for divorce and custody and generally because men have testosterone and will basically pay rent, pay for dinner, pay for everything because we need to have sex and women have a certain power over us with that.

Now obviously women are far more likely to be raped, to suffer domestic abuse and those are fucking awful. Again none of my points were that these things are not horrific or that those doing these things are not wankers.

I just thing it would be honest if we could accept the double standards.

If I called my ex a twat she could run over and leg kick me and punch me in the face (damn womens kickboxing cardio classes) and I am not a poor victim who its never ok to hit

But if my girlfriend called me a twat and I ran over and uppercutted her I would be a monster.

Just because men are physiologically stronger lets men get away with a lot of shit and create a double standard.

Same with cheating, same with divorce, the rates that women take men to the cleaners is fucking disgusting. Same with women getting priority for council housing etc etc.

I swa=ear to god if I could choose I would take the cons women have to get the pros they enjoy. I don't see why saying this is at odds with saying women are also discriminated with in other areas.

Quail

19th October 2013, 21:29

Well... this escalated quickly... :rolleyes:

You Identify as A woman? Is that what you are saying? If so I don't care, what people do to their body or how they view themselves is none of my fucking business.

Also I am hardly macho, if that is what you are implying, I just don't see someone grabbing my arse as bad. Now I understand why it would be for women becuase men are physically superior to women n general so men can rape women where as for the most part women can not rape a man. Although recently a guy did, I thing he was a black German dude who claimed some woman forced him to have sex for 11 hours.

See I just laughed at that, I laughed at rape, but as men most of us who read that article laughed, yet I find men raping women horrendous.

Same when a guy had his cock chopped off and put in a waste processor, if that had been a giy chopping a womans titty off and throwing it into a bladed sink to be ripped up it would be horrific, but me and all the guys I know laughed our ass off at the woman throwing dudes dick away.

I just find the difference in how violence is horrendous when aimed against women but I can watch a dude being beheaded on the internet and it barely even fazes me. Yet when I watch something like a rape scene on TV i Get angry at the rapist. but pulp fiction rape scene made everyone in the room openly laugh when I watched it.

Its almost like pussy is way more valuable than cock, any woman can get cock but its hard to get pussy.
I think just like the bourgeoisie had sewn the seeds of its own distraction, males have sewn their seeds of destruction by inflating the value of vagina way above the the Value of penis.

I think with the demise of religion and the full embracement of sex, women will for the first time have the most power in society.
The way that people respond to the rape of men vs the rape of women is probably down to patriarchal gender stereotypes. Men are expected to be always up for sex, and if that were truly the case then what kind of man would be a rape victim?

Way to prove my point. stop talking for women you paternalistic weirdo. I admitted women, not you, women, have a much better debating skill set than creeps like you who try and play white mans burden with women.

I don't want your opinion. I want to talk to a woman feminist. You are so desperate for meaning in your life you are derailing a thread with insults and imbecilic stings of swear words with zero insight.

Go away and have fun instead of making everyone uncomfortable in your desperate bid to make people on the progressive team like you.

Someone posts a nice, well mannered post and you jump in to derail it, because why let feminists discuss feminism when you can huh guy. Invalid.
Actually, I'm a woman feminist and although I don't like people speaking for me, I really do appreciate my male allies, especially in a place like Revleft which consists mostly of men and has something of a "boys' club" atmosphere.

funny thing is, pretty much all the working class men of the world share the same disgusting sense of humor, the same view on women and life, I don't know any man you would find not in need of rotting and dying.

I am being myself on here and talk like I do in real life, but you wouldn't dare tell someone to fuck off and rot in real life because we just said what we said. You are a coward, who hides behind a keyboard, like all the stalinists and liberals, but if you started spouting that shit at the pub you would get the hsit beat out of you so in real life you just sit there quiet.

Also, you just capitulated the point when you pretty much said fuck off and die, so, go on www.imright.com (http://www.imright.com) and find something that backs up your argument and come back.
There are a hell of a lot of working class people who buy into a variety of reactionary bullshit. Does that mean we should put up with all of that?

Where the fuck do you live? England 1855?

Women do not feel inferior, they know they are sexy, smart and have power over men because we will do anything to fuck them.

What you said is sexist, you are saying all women feel the same!

All the young women I know don't feel inferior to men, they don't compare themselves to men because they are normal people with lives. You ask most women what a feminist looks like, she will tell you ugly or has problems.

Most women like to fuck, like to get a good education and do not feel inferior. Don't put your political dogma on them.

I have an aunty Helen and she is this outspoken feminist, all the women in my family take the piss because she can't get man, can't get her life together and she is bitter and this is the reason she rails against patriarchy, yet she doesn't have any experience with men because men aren't interested in her out of shape old ass.

Why are the majority of feminists people who have shitty lives or are overweight, or have mental health issues.

Why is it never the normal, likes to go out and have fun woman who gets attention off the boys who is a feminist?

Nina Hartley is the only cool feminist and most feminists hate her.
I'm not even sure how to respond to this. I'm a feminist, and yes I have mental health issues - one of the things that greatly contributed to my mental health problems also opened my eyes to patriarchy and got me into feminism. But I don't think it's appropriate to claim feminism is invalid because feminists have mental health problems (which is a. a stupid generalisation and b. kind of discriminatory against people with mental health problems).

There is also a whole host of evidence showing that "women's work" is undervalued and underpaid (if paid at all), that women's knowledge and opinions are taken less seriously, etc., so to claim that society doesn't treat women as inferior is complete bullshit.

You still did not answer whether or not a woman grabbing another womans ass was as bad as a man grabbing a womans ass.

If they are both women and none have "gender dominance" is there now a victim, if she gropes a female instead of a man, is she now a sex offender?
Um... sexual assault is sexual assault, and also happens in the LGBT community. There is always a victim, but I think the power dynamics matter. A man assaults a woman in the context of a society where it's somewhat acceptable to dominate women and where women feel unsafe in public. There isn't that same context when a woman assaults a man, though it is of course still a serious violation.

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 21:34

Women enjoy massive advantages in the courts for divorce and custody and generally because men have testosterone and will basically pay rent, pay for dinner, pay for everything because we need to have sex and women have a certain power over us with that.

I'd have to see numbers for this, tbh. Because in the States it's the same way if you glance at the surface -- with women getting custody especially. But then when you look at the specifics of it and find something like the detail that most of these cases (again, in the States -- I don't know the issues in the UK) are settled out of court and very often without a mediator, between the two parents themselves.

Now obviously women are far more likely to be raped, to suffer domestic abuse and those are fucking awful. Again none of my points were that these things are not horrific or that those doing these things are not wankers.

I just thing it would be honest if we could accept the double standards.We do acknowledge the double standard, tho. We just attribute it to patriarchy and its gender roles.

If I called my ex a twat she could run over and leg kick me and punch me in the face (damn womens kickboxing cardio classes) and I am not a poor victim who its never ok to hit

But if my girlfriend called me a twat and I ran over and uppercutted her I would be a monster.I dunno. It'd probably be a little harder for you to get help, but people think domestic abusers are pretty monstrous one way or the other.

I swa=ear to god if I could choose I would take the cons women have to get the pros they enjoy. I don't see why saying this is at odds with saying women are also discriminated with in other areas.I don't think it is, but I think it's massively short sighted. Like, damn dude. You'd be cool with dealing with hella sexual harassment, a 20% (at least) chance of getting sexually assaulted during your life time, occupational discrimination outside of anything but a low-paying pink collar job, so you could get a priority for a council house or maybe get some money out of a divorce or something?

That sounds pretty ridiculous tbh.

EDIT: I mean, those "perks" given to women are there specifically because women are relatively disadvantaged in society. You'd be accepting a disadvantage in life to get perks that might help you get the same opportunities as a man would.

synthesis

19th October 2013, 21:36

Way to prove my point. stop talking for women you paternalistic weirdo. I admitted women, not you, women, have a much better debating skill set than creeps like you who try and play white mans burden with women.

I don't want your opinion. I want to talk to a woman feminist. You are so desperate for meaning in your life you are derailing a thread with insults and imbecilic stings of swear words with zero insight.

Go away and have fun instead of making everyone uncomfortable in your desperate bid to make people on the progressive team like you.

Someone posts a nice, well mannered post and you jump in to derail it, because why let feminists discuss feminism when you can huh guy. Invalid.

To be fair, with a lot of discussions like this (with regards to race or gender or sexuality or whatever) there is a certain value in having someone who isn't from the group in question try to argue from their perspective, as (and this is just a personal observation) sometimes people from that group don't really express themselves against things they disagree with just because they don't want to be seen as being too aggressive or divisive. (This obviously isn't saying anyone should feel that way, just that they sometimes do.)

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 21:37

Why are the majority of feminists people who have shitty lives or are overweight, or have mental health issues.

Why is it never the normal, likes to go out and have fun woman who gets attention off the boys who is a feminist?

lmao holy fucking shit I didn't even see this oh my god.

man this isn't even like a reasoned thing to say so don't be offended when I tell you you're a fucking idiot for saying this lol

hooooly shit man.

Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages

19th October 2013, 21:38

I'm late, but reading the article in the op really freaked me out, yikes.

e; me grammar bad

synthesis

19th October 2013, 21:41

lmao holy fucking shit I didn't even see this oh my god.

man this isn't even like a reasoned thing to say so don't be offended when I tell you you're a fucking idiot for saying this lol

hooooly shit man.

I was wondering when someone was going to point this out. The board generally frowns on short posts saying "inb4 shitstorm," so...

Thirsty Crow

19th October 2013, 21:41

What fucking perks? The idea that women plot and fuck men over, getting everything they want, since it is only men that seriously need to get laid? And this is reality we're talking about, and not idiotic Hollywood movies?

And the guy must have some view of these perks when he'd trade in the fear of harassment, assault and rape, with rape itself, for those magnificent cons.

So, yeah. Fuck off matey (and probably should be restricted)

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 21:43

What fucking perks? The idea that women plot and fuck men over, getting everything they want, since it is only men that seriously need to get laid? And this is reality we're talking about, and not idiotic Hollywood movies?

specifically he pointed out preferential treatment in divorce/custody cases (which is questionable) and priority in council housing. both of which seem to be really, really specific things and kind of minor in the grand scheme of things.

JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa

19th October 2013, 21:46

Well... this escalated quickly... :rolleyes:

The way that people respond to the rape of men vs the rape of women is probably down to patriarchal gender stereotypes. Men are expected to be always up for sex, and if that were truly the case then what kind of man would be a rape victim?

Actually, I'm a woman feminist and although I don't like people speaking for me, I really do appreciate my male allies, especially in a place like Revleft which consists mostly of men and has something of a "boys' club" atmosphere.

There are a hell of a lot of working class people who buy into a variety of reactionary bullshit. Does that mean we should put up with all of that?

I'm not even sure how to respond to this. I'm a feminist, and yes I have mental health issues - one of the things that greatly contributed to my mental health problems also opened my eyes to patriarchy and got me into feminism. But I don't think it's appropriate to claim feminism is invalid because feminists have mental health problems (which is a. a stupid generalisation and b. kind of discriminatory against people with mental health problems).

There is also a whole host of evidence showing that "women's work" is undervalued and underpaid (if paid at all), that women's knowledge and opinions are taken less seriously, etc., so to claim that society doesn't treat women as inferior is complete bullshit.

Um... sexual assault is sexual assault, and also happens in the LGBT community. There is always a victim, but I think the power dynamics matter. A man assaults a woman in the context of a society where it's somewhat acceptable to dominate women and where women feel unsafe in public. There isn't that same context when a woman assaults a man, though it is of course still a serious violation.

Sorry but the idea that women are taken less seriously is again a bullshit stereotype. I have a great mother who I take seriously and love and get advice from.

I have had a martial arts coach who was female and respected and valued their teaching and their opinions as much as any man I know.
Also was Margaret Thatcher taken less seriously? The majority of the population voted for her, how was she not taken seriously?

I respect my girlfriends, debate with them, have meaningful debate with them etc etc.

Stupid womens opinions are treated as less seriously. Smart women are taken seriously. If you are a woman who has zero intelligent things to say, loves the xfactor and is just not deep or smart, then yeah you are not taken seriously.

More women can get away with being dumb because men want to fuck them, thus they don't need to develop a sense of humour, or an interesting personality, like guys do.

My brother asked my girlfriend where king kong was buried joking and she goes "I don't know, where was He buried, he was from one of those Islands"

Women on average, in my experience of life so far, are far less funny, interesting and intelligent than men.

They have tits and pussy and for most men that is enough, this is similar to the talent v skill aspect of athletics, however I have met women smarter than me, funnier and better than me in different ways.

Also, the only two lesbians I know both say the exact same thing about women, which makes me laugh, they are fun as shit and have lesbian parties in the Garden. They invite girls over and they frolic in the paddling pool and drink Stella. I want that...... someday.

JoeHoganSmokyDaHeefa

19th October 2013, 21:52

specifically he pointed out preferential treatment in divorce/custody cases (which is questionable) and priority in council housing. both of which seem to be really, really specific things and kind of minor in the grand scheme of things.

I don't really see how it is at all questionable. I have had relatives where my cousins had to live with their alcoholic, mentally abusive mother who cheated on their dad numerous times and was the reason for the divorce, she got the house and kids. Now my cousins are grown up they don't speak to their mother and love their dad. The courts sided with the woman. She got the house, she got pretty much everything and monthly fucking payment while she sat on her arse and didn't work.

All he got to keep was his car, so he could work and keep paying her. Every family nearly, has similar situations because women do get massive massive priority, even when clearly complete horrible mothers and people in general.

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 21:56

Sorry but the idea that women are taken less seriously is again a bullshit stereotype. I have a great mother who I take seriously and love and get advice from.

That's cool, but I'm not really interested in anecdotal things and personal experience -- especially when there are comprehensive studies that contradict them. For example there was this (http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109#aff-1) study that showed that men were favored over women with the exact same qualification when it comes to jobs. Now, unless there's reason to believe the folks doing the hiring in STEM fields are more sexist than the general population (and there isn't any that I've seen), I think it's fair to say that this probably reflects the opinions of the general population at least somewhat, right?

And by the way, the men were favored even when it was a woman approving the applications, so.

Women on average, in my experience of life so far, are far less funny, interesting and intelligent than men. That sounds like it might be a "you" problem, bruh. Especially considering women outperform dudes in school in general...

EDIT: yo have you considered the possibility that your personal experiences might not reflect the aggregate of human experiences? I mean, at this point, when I find myself talking about a social problem and all I can come up with "well in my own experience" then I'm usually pretty sure that whatever I'm gonna say is about to be wrong or missing some huge part of the issue.

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 21:57

I don't really see how it is at all questionable

I responded to it directly above. I'll copy/paste it.

I'd have to see numbers for this, tbh. Because in the States it's the same way if you glance at the surface -- with women getting custody especially. But then when you look at the specifics of it and find something like the detail that most of these cases (again, in the States -- I don't know the issues in the UK) are settled out of court and very often without a mediator, between the two parents themselves

Quail

19th October 2013, 21:58

Sorry but the idea that women are taken less seriously is again a bullshit stereotype. I have a great mother who I take seriously and love and get advice from.

I have had a martial arts coach who was female and respected and valued their teaching and their opinions as much as any man I know.
Also was Margaret Thatcher taken less seriously? The majority of the population voted for her, how was she not taken seriously?

I respect my girlfriends, debate with them, have meaningful debate with them etc etc.

Stupid womens opinions are treated as less seriously. Smart women are taken seriously. If you are a woman who has zero intelligent things to say, loves the xfactor and is just not deep or smart, then yeah you are not taken seriously.

More women can get away with being dumb because men want to fuck them, thus they don't need to develop a sense of humour, or an interesting personality, like guys do.

My brother asked my girlfriend where king kong was buried joking and she goes "I don't know, where was He buried, he was from one of those Islands"

Women on average, in my experience of life so far, are far less funny, interesting and intelligent than men.

They have tits and pussy and for most men that is enough, this is similar to the talent v skill aspect of athletics, however I have met women smarter than me, funnier and better than me in different ways.

Also, the only two lesbians I know both say the exact same thing about women, which makes me laugh, they are fun as shit and have lesbian parties in the Garden. They invite girls over and they frolic in the paddling pool and drink Stella. I want that...... someday.
Um... okay, so you basically just said that in your experience of life women are inferior to men. Then you claim sexism doesn't exist.

Tim Cornelis

19th October 2013, 22:00

I don't really see how it is at all questionable. I have had relatives where my cousins had to live with their alcoholic, mentally abusive mother who cheated on their dad numerous times and was the reason for the divorce, she got the house and kids. Now my cousins are grown up they don't speak to their mother and love their dad. The courts sided with the woman. She got the house, she got pretty much everything and monthly fucking payment while she sat on her arse and didn't work.

All he got to keep was his car, so he could work and keep paying her. Every family nearly, has similar situations because women do get massive massive priority, even when clearly complete horrible mothers and people in general.

Gee, perhaps that has anything to do with that patriarchical mentality favours women to be child caretakers.

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 22:01

woah you know you're fuckin up when tim cornelis isn't taking some weird contrarian iconoclast stance on a thing and agreeing with some dumb shit just because

synthesis

19th October 2013, 22:02

Um... okay, so you basically just said that in your experience of life women are inferior to men. Then you claim sexism doesn't exist.

It's kind of similar to how Stormfront people will say shit like, "It's not racist if it's true." Or something to that effect.

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 22:05

Um... okay, so you basically just said that in your experience of life women are inferior to men. Then you claim sexism doesn't exist.

Since we're pointing out blatant contradictions there's also the part where he said "hey you're saying all women are the same!!!" and then said "women don't feel inferior!"

EDIT: i think this guy's wrong but i feel like he's able to engage in discussion in an honest way though so let's keep that going pls.

#FF0000

19th October 2013, 22:07

Or... can we get this split or something since he's restricted now

Quail

19th October 2013, 22:09

Okay I have moved the thread to OI so that he can continue the discussion. I just thought his latest posts were easily within restriction territory.

Thirsty Crow

19th October 2013, 23:03

woah you know you're fuckin up when tim cornelis isn't taking some weird contrarian iconoclast stance on a thing and agreeing with some dumb shit just because
Hands off Tim! :lol:

The Garbage Disposal Unit

19th October 2013, 23:36

Dear Neckbeard McThisisn'tMarxist(tm)enoughforme,
If you actually stepped back for two seconds and took a materialist look at how patriarchy operates to control women's reproductive labour, you would understand the relationship male supremacist behaviour (including leering) has vis-a-vis capital as a whole. Think "boss looking over my shoulder". Does the author put forward this analysis? No, but that's not the point. If this were an article describing management techniques of supervision and control in the workplace from the lived experience of a prole, you wouldn't subject it to this pretentious criticism. The fact is, you obviously have a "Marxism" that was pulled from books that have been gathering dust for the past 50+ years, and haven't bothered to grapple in any serious way with understanding women's unpaid domestic and affective labour.

For fuck's sake.

Tim Cornelis

19th October 2013, 23:51

woah you know you're fuckin up when tim cornelis isn't taking some weird contrarian iconoclast stance on a thing and agreeing with some dumb shit just because

Now, this may be a sort of tongue in check comment but it is revealing in a way. I can completely imagine what you mean when you call me contrarian, to which I'll reply saying that the level of scientific and critical thinking amongst supposed scientific socialists is pathetically low. This alleged contrarianism is nothing more than applying the scientific method and upholding skepticism in place of postulation. Take a thread about marriage some time ago. My position is that I see no reason why marriage will discontinue or why it should. The arguments against marriage were unscientific, fallacious, and emotivist. Supposedly marriage enforces the bourgeois family structure and nuclear family, while non-traditional marriages are usually accepted in the West. It's a fallacy because it assumes that since marriages under bourgeois society are bourgeois that therefore marriage is inherently bourgeois. And so forth. Such thinking is unscientific and Marxist unworthy. For instance, classless hunter-gatherer societies had marriages, and were usually -- as far as I know -- monogamous. So what reason do we have to believe marriage will disappear? None has been provided in the thread in question. Does the existence of marriage in primitive communism mean it will exist in 'civilised communism'? No, that'd be a fallacious argument, but the burden of proof is not with me.

Take the overpopulation argument. I believe the world to be overpopulated. The response, other resources will be used under communism as the social structure changes. We still need computers and we still need the resources to do that. Saying we will have other resources because of a different social structure but without providing any evidence is wishful thinking -- a fallacy. It's not scientific.

This is why I appear contrarian, because I apply the scientific method and don't postulate something within a framework of wishful thinking.

#FF0000

20th October 2013, 00:14

nerd talk

didn't read

bcbm

20th October 2013, 00:56

For instance, classless hunter-gatherer societies had marriages, and were usually -- as far as I know -- monogamous.

cite

Tim Cornelis

20th October 2013, 00:58

didn't read

That's just obnoxious... At the risk of sounding like I take this way too serious, but you kinda questioned my integrity on an unsubstantiated basis -- fine, not really a problem. Then I respond, with what I think, was a cohesive argument (which is what a forum is for), and you're then sorta being insulting saying you're not interested, you're too cool for it. Which is fine as well, just obnoxious.

cite

The Hadza live in a savanna-woodland habitat in northern Tanzania. They
number about one thousand, of whom 300-400 are fUll-time foragers and
among whom this study was conducted. Women dig wild tubers, gather
berries, and collect baobab fruit, while men primarily collect wild honey
and hunt mammals and birds with bows and arrows. When medium to large
game is brought into camp it is shared quite evenly across households
(Hawkes et al. 2oolb), and despite the fact that some men are much beller
hunters than others, there is no clear dominance or status hierarchy. Males
bring into camp about 43% of daily calories, but among married couples
about 50% and among those with nursing infants about 65% (Marlowe 2003).

Median age at first marriage is 21 years for men and 17 years for
women. Marriages are not arranged so both sexes are free to choose their
spouses, though they do seek the approval of their parents. Marriage means
simply that a couple has begun living together, which usually follows a
brief, somewhat discreet courtship. When females are about 17 or 18, and
before they get married for the first time, they may be courted by more
than one male. When this happens, it can lead to a violent, even fatal,
conflict. Because of the danger, others sometimes get involved and ask
the woman to choose one suitor rather than keep stringing both along, but
young women appear to want to shop before marrying.

Monogamy is the norm, with only about 4% of men having two wives
at once, and those marriages often do not last long (Marlowe 2003). The
divorce rate is fairly high, especially in the first marriages (Blurton Jones
et al. 2000), so serial monogamy is the best way to describe the mating
system. However, perhaps 20% of Hadza stay married to the same person
their whole life. Divorce often results when a man is pursuing an extramarital
affair that his wife will not tolerate.

http://www.unl.edu/rhames/courses/readings/Marlowe-hadza-mate-selection-criteria.pdf