DPRK/N. Korea

[RedGuevara]

Good evening/day comrades,
I just recently discovered the MRN youtube channel.. I watched his segment on Defend the DPRK. This was before I learned he was a homophobic phonie but I still wonder about something. All I've ever learned about North Korea, before coming to RL, was from the USA bias led media that paints North Korea as a isolated hell that has an entire population brain washed to follow the Kims as if they were gods.. My question is how much of this is true and what are the good aspects of the DPRK? I admit my ignorance when it comes to the Kims leadership and North Korea.

[Red_Banner]

MRN is bisexual.

How is he "homophobic"?

As for him and North Korea, he is too much of an appologist.

This "right to resist imperialism" nonsense only goes so far.

Juche is anti-communist rubbish.

[RedGuevara]

I've heard he likes to casually use the word faggot and has defended it's use.. I read an old thread in RL. I can try and find it but the word homophobic was thrown in there somewhere. Okay but getting back to North Korea. Are they actually socialist or do they use this as just title only?

[Red_Banner]

Kim Il Sung was kinda socialist, but his son and grandson abandonded socialism.

Ever since their Songun(Military first) policy, they've turned into a junta.

And in their latest constitution, although they retain mentions of socialism, they've abandoned any mentions of communism.

Not to mention their isolationist policies go against Internationalism.

[Comrade Samuel]

The fact of the matter is that there is nobody you can talk to who has even the slightest grasp on what life is like in North Korea. None of us have ever been there and the media IS full of shit but please keep in mind that there are the first hand accounts from people who have fled the country and that they seem to be fairly consistent with one another.

MRN is a failed cosplayer turned pseudo-intellectual who gets his kicks appealing to the concerns of white, upper-middle class 13 year old boys- if listening to him somehow serves as a mental stepping stone for you to produce your own intelligent thoughts on the matter then by all means keep doing what you're doing but please take everything with a grain of salt.

@Red Banner: they call him homophobic around here because he has certain fondness for words like 'faggot' and using 'gay' in a derogatory manner. I don't blame revleft for hating him, it's unbecoming for somebody who supposedly speaks for the oppressed masses to use language like that- you can still be one of those 'profane intellectuals of the new millennium' without using hate speech.

[tachosomoza]

The DPRK is a dynastic, nationalistic, kleptocracy that basically exists to serve the financial interests of the Kim Dynasty and that gullible Western apologists idolize.

[Chris Hansen]

The DPRK is a dynastic, nationalistic, kleptocracy that basically exists to serve the financial interests of the Kim Dynasty and that gullible Western apologists idolize.
I don't think so. It's more likely than not that the "Kim dynasty" and specifically Kim Jong Un are little more than mere figureheads, with real power residing in the hands of the upper echelons of the military and party leadership, who took almost completely in the last decade or so, when Kim ong-il's health problems intensified to the point where he was no longer capable of effectively exercising power.

[DasFapital]

The people who support the DPRK are generally hardcore anti imperialist who also gave uncritical support to Saddam's Iraq, Qaddafi's Libya, and currently sing the praises of Assad (eg Harpal Brar) . That said the US does bear quite a bit of the blame for the DPRK's current lunacy, having bombed the shit out of the country during the Korean War and then placing it undergo six decades of sanctions. Just like Saddam and Pol Pot, the Kim Dynasty is in many ways imperialism's monster.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

what are the good aspects of the DPRK?
Nothing really. It's an embarrassment that some communists defend the DPRK.

[MarxEngelsLeninStalinMao]

They have free healthcare, education and housing, a work for everyone and a secular government which allows religious freedom. And their economy has also gotten better since the Arduous March.

[tachosomoza]

They have free healthcare, education and housing, a work for everyone and a secular government which allows religious freedom. And their economy has also gotten better since the Arduous March.

Yeah, National Geographic had to take doctors over there to do eye surgeries on hundreds of people, the people are basically the Kims' playthings, people are routinely thrown into slave labor camps for trivialities, and the government is based around the god-worship of Kim Il-Sung, Kim Jong-Il, and Kim Jong-Un.

[Remus Bleys]

Yeah, National Geographic had to take doctors over there to do eye surgeries on hundreds of people, the people are basically the Kims' playthings, people are routinely thrown into slave labor camps for trivialities, and the government is based around the god-worship of Kim Il-Sung, Kim Jong-Il, and Kim Jong-Un.
To be fair, the national geographic had to do that with other third wrold countries.
The better criticism of the whole "free healthcare" spiel is that they do not have healthcare. Which is a result of being a third world nation isolated from the world. Not a result of being "Kims' playthings."

Someone earlier in this thread made an excellent point about how the Kims are just figureheads. Let's go with that, and not expect the DPRK to make miracles and not criticize them for having foreign specialists come in.

[Hrafn]

The fact of the matter is that there is nobody you can talk to who has even the slightest grasp on what life is like in North Korea. None of us have ever been there and the media IS full of shit but please keep in mind that there are the first hand accounts from people who have fled the country and that they seem to be fairly consistent with one another.

MRN is a failed cosplayer turned pseudo-intellectual who gets his kicks appealing to the concerns of white, upper-middle class 13 year old boys- if listening to him somehow serves as a mental stepping stone for you to produce your own intelligent thoughts on the matter then by all means keep doing what you're doing but please take everything with a grain of salt.

@Red Banner: they call him homophobic around here because he has certain fondness for words like 'faggot' and using 'gay' in a derogatory manner. I don't blame revleft for hating him, it's unbecoming for somebody who supposedly speaks for the oppressed masses to use language like that- you can still be one of those 'profane intellectuals of the new millennium' without using hate speech.

I have.

[Remus Bleys]

I have.
Care to elaborate on your experience?

[Hrafn]

Care to elaborate on your experience?

I went there early in April this year, at the height of the 'nuclear crisis' at the time, what with missile posturing, war preparations, industrial zone shutdowns, etc. The day I arrived, my country's foreign ministry made an official warning against entering the country. The trip, which only lasted a few days because I picked the absolutely cheapest option to spend my savings on, was arranged by Koryo Tours (excellent company, service-wise) and went very well. Except the time my contact lens cases were stolen. Heh.

It's a bit hard to summarise the whole thing, but feel free to ask anything.

[Brotto Rühle]

North Korea is isolated. Is a repressive state. Is a despotic state capitalist dictatorship. Starvation and poverty are still major issue. No, the people aren't brainwashed...for the most part. They just know if they don't clap or cry long enough, it's off to labour camps.

[Comrade Jacob]

I've heard he likes to casually use the word faggot and has defended it's use...

Big deal.

"Why do people hate gay people? Because they have sex with men. I'm bisexual I have sex with men..." - MRN

[Thirsty Crow]

All I've ever learned about North Korea, before coming to RL, was from the USA bias led media that paints North Korea as a isolated hell that has an entire population brain washed to follow the Kims as if they were gods..
They're hardly isolated. After all, the regime rents out workers to Russian capital (probably for purposes of military and political support) and operates SEZ's involving Chinese capital.
The main problem for the American state is the national source of capitals that are welcomed by the NK state.


They have free healthcare, education and housing, a work for everyone and a secular government which allows religious freedom. And their economy has also gotten better since the Arduous March.
Yeah, work for everyone. Just about the right thing communists should advocate. Spread out that exploitation and domination please.

[RedGuevara]

First and foremost I was just more intrigued with MRN's defend the DPRK segment and not his overall channel. Two I don't support the use of the word "faggot" or "gay" in a derogatory sense because as soon as it's used and supported then people are free to use words like "nigger" and "spook" in derogatory but casual senses and it's wrong and promotes bigotry and hatred.

Thank you for replying. I think I have somewhat of an understanding and I've seen the 60 seconds documentary on N. Korea and I've seen the doctor who had to perform the 1000 eye surgeries in mere days on National Geographics. Overall it's just too isolated to truly understand and only time will tell.

[Devrim]

First and foremost I was just more intrigued with MRN's defend the DPRK segment and not his overall channel. Two I don't support the use of the word "faggot" or "gay" in a derogatory sense because as soon as it's used and supported then people are free to use words like "nigger" and "spook" in derogatory but casual senses and it's wrong and promotes bigotry and hatred.

What does this term mean? I would use it to me intelligence operative.


"Why do people hate gay people? Because they have sex with men. I'm bisexual I have sex with men..." - MRN

Having watched that guy, I would say if he manages to find anyone to have sex with him, then there is hope for nerds everywhere.

Devrim

[Comrade Samuel]

I went there early in April this year, at the height of the 'nuclear crisis' at the time, what with missile posturing, war preparations, industrial zone shutdowns, etc. The day I arrived, my country's foreign ministry made an official warning against entering the country. The trip, which only lasted a few days because I picked the absolutely cheapest option to spend my savings on, was arranged by Koryo Tours (excellent company, service-wise) and went very well. Except the time my contact lens cases were stolen. Heh.

It's a bit hard to summarise the whole thing, but feel free to ask anything.

Well what are the odds? Never in all of my years did I expect somebody on revleft to start a thread like this and for somebody who has actually been there to show up. I believe it's relevant to what we're talking about here so do you mind if I give it a whack?

Where exactly did you go? A major city? a rural village? Pyongyang itself?

Did people know you came from outside? or did you not speak the language well enough to determine that? (How good is your Korean?)

Did you have a guide of some sort? If so was he/she from the government, Koryo or somewhere else?

[Hrafn]

Well what are the odds? Never in all of my years did I expect somebody on revleft to start a thread like this and for somebody who has actually been there to show up. I believe it's relevant to what we're talking about here so do you mind if I give it a whack?

Where exactly did you go? A major city? a rural village? Pyongyang itself?

Did people know you came from the west? or did you not speak the language well enough to determine that? (How good is your Korean?)

Did you have a guide of some sort? If so was he/she from the government, Koryo or somewhere else?

Pyongyang, with a short visit outside of the city to the birthplace of Kim Il-sung, and the trip back and forth between the airport. The countryside is... not a nice please. Nor is the outskirts of Pyongyang. The city centre reminds me much of urban milieus here in Sweden, albeit more broken-down and somewhat less colourful.

I don't speak Korean, but yes, it was rather obvious. Westerners, it would seem, is far from an unusual sight among the urban population of Pyongyang, far from it, based on the interactions we had with random people on the street, children roller-skating on Kim Il-sung Square, and the glances in the subway, so to speak.

We were at all times followed by two Korean governmental guides, one man and one woman, who led the tour (about 14 tourists in our group) and kept us in check. One guide from Koryo, to make sure everything went smoothly.

Edit:


What does this term mean? I would use it to me intelligence operative.

In certain parts of the US, it's a racial slur for people of African origin.

[RedGuevara]

Yeah "spook" is or was highly used in the south eastern part of the US that refers to African Americans. That's where I'm from so I probably should have thought to translate it. I'm sorry for that.
And your tour kind of reminds me of when the eye surgeon went to North Korea. They had a gentleman who was a journalist but because he was of Asian descent they weren't as suspicious of him. The group was from another part of Asia and the journalist was from Europe but had Asian parents so the North Korean tour guides weren't as suspicious of him and he took secret video of his interactions there.

[Stalinist Speaker]

Kim Il Sung was kinda socialist, but his son and grandson abandonded socialism.

Ever since their Songun(Military first) policy, they've turned into a junta.

And in their latest constitution, although they retain mentions of socialism, they've abandoned any mentions of communism.

Not to mention their isolationist policies go against Internationalism.

They are socialists, and isolation is to defend themselves against US-imperialism.

[Stalinist Speaker]

Nothing really. It's an embarrassment that some communists defend the DPRK.

and i am vary embarrassed that some communists aren't defending the DPRK.

[Lensky]

The DPRK, like Cuba is under an intense economic attack by the United States and its allies, forcing concessions to foreign capitalism (opening of the Rajin-Sonbong Free Trade and Economic Zone, or tourist resorts in Cuba). These are unfortunately completely necessary to avoid shortages in vital goods like food, electricity, and oil. (Again, caused by an intense embargo and covert activities, not failures of theory or practice from the ruling regimes). However they are also the first steps towards a restoration of capitalism, as a new class of Cubans and North Koreans citizens arises which must deal with foreign investors and speculators, also making them more savvy with profit driven schemes and structure.

Ultimately, the Left has only themselves to blame for the failures of the last remaining communist states - as an isolated capitalist regime in a communist world would also not last long without becoming deformed or overthrown.

[RedGuevara]

I'm not sure you can completely compare the Kim government to Cuba. Cuba actually has quality healthcare and more doctors per GDP than the USA. Even with the US embargo, Cuba has made more contributions to the medical field then North Korea. Their carbon foot prints is one of the lowest in the world. Their infant mortality rates are much lower than compared to the US. Cuba doesn't believe their dictators are gods and the US is more to blame for Cuba's situation than Cuba itself.

[Lensky]

Yeah, North Korea is definitely more bureaucratic than Cuba although that is a reflection of the more developed heavy industry in the DPRK.

[Comrade Samuel]

Pyongyang, with a short visit outside of the city to the birthplace of Kim Il-sung, and the trip back and forth between the airport. The countryside is... not a nice please. Nor is the outskirts of Pyongyang. The city centre reminds me much of urban milieus here in Sweden, albeit more broken-down and somewhat less colourful.

I don't speak Korean, but yes, it was rather obvious. Westerners, it would seem, is far from an unusual sight among the urban population of Pyongyang, far from it, based on the interactions we had with random people on the street, children roller-skating on Kim Il-sung Square, and the glances in the subway, so to speak.

We were at all times followed by two Korean governmental guides, one man and one woman, who led the tour (about 14 tourists in our group) and kept us in check. One guide from Koryo, to make sure everything went smoothly.

Edit:



In certain parts of the US, it's a racial slur for people of African origin.

Thanks you so much for taking the time to answer my questions, At first I would have been inclined to say you were a troll but your fairly reasonable account of things coupled with a quick google search of Koryo seems to point to the contrary. I imagine that without an understanding of the language your recounting of the visit couldn't be as complete as some of us would like it to be but I still really appreciate what you have given us- you should consider starting your own thread as there are probably a lot of people who have better questions than I do.


and i am vary embarrassed that some communists aren't defending the DPRK.

...and I'm embarrassed that there are people who use the acronym 'DPRK' when there is absolutely no evidence supporting the claim that North Korea is democratic or a republic (the 'people's' part has some questionable implications as well).

What kind of communist supports a monarchy? What kind of communist supports ultra-nationalism? What kind of communist supports an autocratic regime that imprisons thousands of innocent people as part of '3 generations of punishment' and starves countless more on the outside?

[Stalinist Speaker]

...and I'm embarrassed that there are people who use the acronym 'DPRK' when there is absolutely no evidence supporting the claim that North Korea is democratic or a republic.

What kind of communist supports a monarchy? What kind of communist supports ultra-nationalism? What kind of communist supports an autocratic regime that imprisons thousands of innocent people as part of '3 generations of punishment' and starves countless more on the outside?

DPRK is not an monarchy, it doesn't claim it is and it cant be a monarchy, its not ultra-nationalists, and it does not in prison millions of people. And go and look up what types of democracy that exists before you call something non democratic, (there are more than just western bourgeoise democracy) And please consider changing news sources from the Main bourgeoisie media to something that doesn't make up ridiculous lies against the DPRK. I know that 1st world people have problem with that, but please try.

[Hrafn]

Thanks you so much for taking the time to answer my questions, At first I would have been inclined to say you were a troll but your fairly reasonable account of things coupled with a quick google search of Koryo seems to point to the contrary. I imagine that without an understanding of the language your recounting of the visit couldn't be as complete as some of us would like it to be but I still really appreciate what you have given us- you should consider starting your own thread as there are probably a lot of people who have better questions than I do.

No problem.

I doubt an understanding of the language would've helped me much - we had very limited opportunities for communication that couldn't be done through sign language and body language, and during those opportunities we did have to talk to "normal" people (i.e. not tourist staff), such as when bowling (of all things), people generally spoke a minimum of English at least. I wouldn't have had to ask for translations of gigantic signs in Korean, that's about it, I'd say, given the limited opportunities.

Maybe I'll start a thread, I suppose.

[Comrade Samuel]

DPRK is not an monarchy, it doesn't claim it is and it cant be a monarchy, its not ultra-nationalists, and it does not in prison millions of people. And go and look up what types of democracy that exists before you call something non democratic, (there are more than just western bourgeoise democracy) And please consider changing news sources from the Main bourgeoisie media to something that doesn't make up ridiculous lies against the DPRK. I know that 1st world people have problem with that, but please try.

I dunno friend, 3 people from the same family leading a country in succession sounds a lot like a monarchy to me... or do the people just love the lineage so much that they keep democratically electing the Kims on their own free will?

They also look pretty ultra-nationalist portraying Americans, South Koreans and really just about anybody who isn't North Korean as sub-human in their propaganda. But hey, if claiming to be the best country on earth every 12 god damn seconds doesn't make someone a nationalist by your logic then you'll be glad to hear that the citizens of the U.S are now among the least patriotic in existence as well.

I don't deny coming from a 1st world country nor do I deny that there are insane lies circulating throughout the world about North Korea but that does not justify your blatant disregard for evidence. Western bourgeois democracy is broken and must be replaced, bourgeois news outlets do indoctrinate the masses but what they don't do is give people like you the right to defend non-internationalist, non-socialist, authoritarian hell holes. Anti-imperialism ceases to be relevant when communists flock to deference of foreign bourgeoisie and forget to combat the bourgeoisie in general, Stalinist Speaker.

[motion denied]

Do the workers exercise political power? Do the workers control the factories at some level? How is the surplus-value appropriated? Do people really think of Kim Il-Sung as a 'great leader' etc? How come 'socialism' is a war economy armed to their teeth?

[Remus Bleys]

How come 'socialism' is a war economy armed to their teeth?
To be fair, they are still technically in the Korean War.

On the other hand, if the US wanted to invade North Korea again, it would have.

[Stalinist Speaker]

I dunno friend, 3 people from the same family leading a country in succession sounds a lot like a monarchy to me... or do the people just love the lineage so much that they keep democratically electing the Kims on their own free will?

They also look pretty ultra-nationalist portraying Americans, South Koreans and really just about anybody who isn't North Korean as sub-human in their propaganda. But hey, if claiming to be the best country on earth every 12 god damn seconds doesn't make someone a nationalist by your logic then you'll be glad to hear that the citizens of the U.S are now among the least patriotic in existence as well.

I don't deny coming from a 1st world country nor do I deny that there are insane lies circulating throughout the world about North Korea but that does not justify your blatant disregard for evidence. Western bourgeois democracy is broken and must be replaced, bourgeois news outlets do indoctrinate the masses but what they don't do is give people like you the right to defend non-internationalist, non-socialist, authoritarian hell holes. Anti-imperialism ceases to be relevant when communists flock to deference of foreign bourgeoisie and forget to combat the bourgeoisie in general, Stalinist Speaker.

The whole reason why they have the leaders from 1 family and portraying americans e.t.c, ( i would disagree that they portray south koreans as bad people, they only portray the south korean government as bad) is if the people stop looking up to the leaders as they were gods and being so much anti-american the DPRK would be crushed by US imperialism, If the people of the DPRK stop being patriots, the dissents obviously going to rise and if dissent rises the doors opens to US imperialism and in a short time DPRK will fall, thats also why they have restricted internet and e.t.c because that is whats holding the country up.

[Stalinist Speaker]

Do the workers exercise political power? Do the workers control the factories at some level? How is the surplus-value appropriated? Do people really think of Kim Il-Sung as a 'great leader' etc? How come 'socialism' is a war economy armed to their teeth?

As far as i understand Workers gets to exercise political power, but its more limited then it was in 1950-1990 due to the big threat o US imperialism.
Kim il-sung is one of the most important people in the country and pretty much everyone looks up to him in some degree
Due to their threat of US-imperialism if they wouldn't have been armed they wouldn't have existed today.

[motion denied]

The whole reason why they have the leaders from 1 family and portraying americans e.t.c, ( i would disagree that they portray south koreans as bad people, they only portray the south korean government as bad) is if the people stop looking up to the leaders as they were gods and being so much anti-american the DPRK would be crushed by US imperialism, If the people of the DPRK stop being patriots, the dissents obviously going to rise and if dissent rises the doors opens to US imperialism and in a short time DPRK will fall, thats also why they have restricted internet and e.t.c because that is whats holding the country up.

This makes no sense at all. Utter, complete rubbish. You're saying that if north-koreans stop worshipping the dear leader the country will fall (whatever that is).

Socialists don't fight to maintain 'countries up'. On the contrary, socialists are against borders and countries.

Man, what the hell.


As far as i understand Workers gets to exercise political power, but its more limited then it was in 1950-1990 due to the big threat o US imperialism.

How? Is it the workers or the party? Or else, a family?

[Stalinist Speaker]

To be fair, they are still technically in the Korean War.

On the other hand, if the US wanted to invade North Korea again, it would have.

No it would not invade them just like that, first of all they wouldn't be allowed by the UN due to china and russian voting against it. And if they still did they would make themselves look bad. The DPRK has the 4th biggest army (if i'm not mistaken) in the world and that would make some huge issues for the US, especially if you look how hard it is for them to deal with the Taliban.

[Stalinist Speaker]

This makes no sense at all. Utter, complete rubbish. You're saying that if north-koreans stop worshipping the dear leader the country will fall (whatever that is).

Socialists don't fight to maintain 'countries up'. On the contrary, socialists are against borders and countries.

Man, what the hell.



How? Is it the workers or the party? Or else, a family?

You know that US wants The DPRK to fall right? the end goal of socialism is to dissolve the borders. but it would be impossible to have such a stateless society when there is imperialism.
it is mixed it is controlled by workers with a influence of the state

[Remus Bleys]

No it would not invade them just like that, first of all they wouldn't be allowed by the UN due to china and russian voting against it. And if they still did they would make themselves look bad. The DPRK has the 4th biggest army (if i'm not mistaken) in the world and that would make some huge issues for the US, especially if you look how hard it is for them to deal with the Taliban.
Then what the fuck is up with all the army worshiping?

How do you *spits* Juche-ists explain that away?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

As far as i understand Workers gets to exercise political power, but its more limited then it was in 1950-1990 due to the big threat o US imperialism.
There's always an excuse, isn't there?

[argeiphontes]

The DPRK has the 4th biggest army (if i'm not mistaken) in the world and that would make some huge issues for the US, especially if you look how hard it is for them to deal with the Taliban.

The Taliban are motivated. The North Korean military could simply evaporate, but not before much loss of life due to Fearless Leader's lack of qualms about sending his people in for slaughter, and propaganda about their chances, if anyone there is *that* naive and isolated. On the other hand, there could be party cadres eager to offer up his head in exchange for some time to snatch up capital before or during the process of liberalization and eventual reunification.

Remember, this is a society held together by force and the relative privilege of a few in the major city. Which they can't even fully light at night. Once people realized it was the end, the whole house of cards would collapse.

[Stalinist Speaker]

The Taliban are motivated. The North Korean military could simply evaporate, but not before much loss of life due to Fearless Leader's lack of qualms about sending his people in for slaughter, and propaganda about their chances, if anyone there is *that* naive and isolated. On the other hand, there could be party cadres eager to offer up his head in exchange for some time to snatch up capital before or during the process of liberalization and eventual reunification.

Remember, this is a society held together by force and the relative privilege of a few in the major city. Which they can't even fully light at night. Once people realized it was the end, the whole house of cards would collapse.

No way, the North koreans are extremely patriotic and they would resist a war with US whatever it takes, and i'm not talking about the army only this includes the civilians to

[#FF0000]

The DPRK has the 4th biggest army (if i'm not mistaken) in the world and that would make some huge issues for the US, especially if you look how hard it is for them to deal with the Taliban.

Fighting a standing army and an insurgency are entirely different things. An insurgency is always difficult (read: damn near impossible) to defeat unless your plan is to commit genocide or wait until they quit. The North Korean army would fall like wheat to the reaper in a stand up war -- and I wouldn't be surprised if morale shattered pretty much instantly, with swaths of the military surrendering to the first person with a gun or a camera who could spirit them over the DMZ.

Seoul would probably be engulfed in a blaze of atomic fury, tho, seeing as it's close enough that Pyongyang could toss a nuke with a water balloon launcher and deny the world a massively important center of commerce.

[Japan]

The DPRK's slowly been opening up, if anyone has noticed. Well, not really slowly, but yeah. However, if anything, I'd say North Korea's closer to Nazi Germany than to heck, even the Soviet Union. North Korea legalized private farms called sotoji back in 2002, but this was more of merely recognizing their existence and trying to tax them. However, most people haven't registered their sotoji, IIRC.

Good aspects of the DPRK? Well, naengmyeon is pretty delicious. It's a dish that originated in North Korea, but has since become popular throughout all of Korea. However, I don't like cucumbers, and ask to have them removed, hehehe. North Korea also has some beautiful Buddhist temples and architecture. Geography-wise, there's excellent beaches along the Sea of Japan, as well as lots of mountains. If you like cold weather and snow, then Korea during the winter is just for you! Weather in Korea in general is pretty extreme, with it often being in the high 80's during the summer, and then sinking to low single digits during the winter. Well, that was me living a bit south of Seoul anyway. If you go north, it's colder.

North Korea is pretty isolated, but it's not as isolated as a lot of people think now. Roughly 20% of the population have access to foreign media, which is often smuggled through from China. In this way, a lot of North Koreans actually have actually watched things such as South Korean dramas, and have knowledge of the better living standards there. Since the collapse of the North Korea's economy (and subsequent collapse of its information cordon), things have gotten a lot less strict, especially when it comes to smuggling things across the border. However, I've heard that they've been cracking down more on people crossing the border with China under Kim Jong-un now.

Also, a huge amount of North Koreans possess cellphones, which might seem odd for some.

@Comrade Samuel
No, they actually don't present South Koreans as subhuman. They present them as members of the pure Korean race who are being exploited and are living in an American puppet state.

On the other hand, SK propaganda a few decades sort of did present North Koreans as subhuman. They were called "ppalgengi," which I guess means "reds" in Korean. It also sort of sounds like naked people. But yeah, a lot of kids actually thought that North Koreans were naked red people.

[Japan]

The fact of the matter is that there is nobody you can talk to who has even the slightest grasp on what life is like in North Korea. None of us have ever been there and the media IS full of shit but please keep in mind that there are the first hand accounts from people who have fled the country and that they seem to be fairly consistent with one another.
Actually, a lot of people do generally have a good idea of what life is like there, and we draw more than from simply just the accounts of defectors. North Korea, I think, allows tourists from every country other than South Korea, even the US (since 2010). There are, however, some pretty heavy restrictions on what you can and can't do, although these have gotten more lax recently (for example, you can now bring your phone, and take pictures of/film pretty much everything other than military equipment). However, the tour guides aren't really a good representation or show of what life in North Korea is like.

But yeah, on the media, I say that in general it does a pretty horrible job in representing North Korea in any kind of accurate manner.

I remember a defector came as a speaker to our school once during middle school, and apparently things made in China are held in high prestige, and a lot of other stuff.

[Hrafn]

No way, the North koreans are extremely patriotic and they would resist a war with US whatever it takes, and i'm not talking about the army only this includes the civilians to

And your evidence for this is, what, government-held opinion polls showing a 99.9% support rate for martyrdom?

[Japan]

No way, the North koreans are extremely patriotic and they would resist a war with US whatever it takes, and i'm not talking about the army only this includes the civilians to

They would resist a war, or do you mean that they would resist the US? If resisting the US, I think that following a Korean reunification, or at least normal contact between the North and South, the people of North Korea will feel like they've been duped.

Millions of North Koreans are weak from starvation, addicted to drugs such meth, and I'm pretty sure most care more about their lives and families than dying fighting a futile fight. I mean, South Korea alone could easily take on North Korea, and when it comes to patriotism, North Korea's won't be so high when they're fighting their fellow Koreans.

[Stalinist Speaker]

And your evidence for this is, what, government-held opinion polls showing a 99.9% support rate for martyrdom?
Go and look at videos from the DPRK (Stimmekorean on youtube) there are always people putting flowers on kim il-sungs monument almost every one has paintings of them on their walls, this includes foreigners, (go and check the DPRK embassy if you have it in your country and ask the same question about the DPRK.

[Stalinist Speaker]

Fighting a standing army and an insurgency are entirely different things. An insurgency is always difficult (read: damn near impossible) to defeat unless your plan is to commit genocide or wait until they quit. The North Korean army would fall like wheat to the reaper in a stand up war -- and I wouldn't be surprised if morale shattered pretty much instantly, with swaths of the military surrendering to the first person with a gun or a camera who could spirit them over the DMZ.

Seoul would probably be engulfed in a blaze of atomic fury, tho, seeing as it's close enough that Pyongyang could toss a nuke with a water balloon launcher and deny the world a massively important center of commerce.

as i said (but it might have been unclear there would be both army and insurgence fighting and, it is the US that has bad morals, last year they had more suicides (military active on duty) then soldiers dying in combat so that pretty much speaks for itself.

[Hrafn]

Go and look at videos from the DPRK (Stimmekorean on youtube) there are always people putting flowers on kim il-sungs monument almost every one has paintings of them on their walls, this includes foreigners, (go and check the DPRK embassy if you have it in your country and ask the same question about the DPRK.

I've been at the monuments, yes. Plenty of people putting flowers there. I'm not sure how purely visual evidence of some reverence to the leaders adds up to the entire population being fanatically devoted.

[Devrim]

Go and look at videos from the DPRK (Stimmekorean on youtube) there are always people putting flowers on kim il-sungs monument almost every one has paintings of them on their walls, this includes foreigners, (go and check the DPRK embassy if you have it in your country and ask the same question about the DPRK.

I would imagine that it is quite possibly the law that you have to.

Devrim

[RedHal]

Fighting a standing army and an insurgency are entirely different things. An insurgency is always difficult (read: damn near impossible) to defeat unless your plan is to commit genocide or wait until they quit. The North Korean army would fall like wheat to the reaper in a stand up war -- and I wouldn't be surprised if morale shattered pretty much instantly, with swaths of the military surrendering to the first person with a gun or a camera who could spirit them over the DMZ.

Seoul would probably be engulfed in a blaze of atomic fury, tho, seeing as it's close enough that Pyongyang could toss a nuke with a water balloon launcher and deny the world a massively important center of commerce.

Atomic weapons are far more complicated than nuking Pyongyand and losing Seoul:rolleyes: You have China and Russia who wouldn't be at all pleased with Nukes being set off near their boarders, this isn't some video game.

[Stalinist Speaker]

They would resist a war, or do you mean that they would resist the US? If resisting the US, I think that following a Korean reunification, or at least normal contact between the North and South, the people of North Korea will feel like they've been duped.

Millions of North Koreans are weak from starvation, addicted to drugs such meth, and I'm pretty sure most care more about their lives and families than dying fighting a futile fight. I mean, South Korea alone could easily take on North Korea, and when it comes to patriotism, North Korea's won't be so high when they're fighting their fellow Koreans.

1. N.koreans are not addicted on drugs they dont have problems with drugs and that story is a made up lie. 2. south korea does not stand a chance the
DPRK's army is twice as big as South has and North also got 8 million people in reserve so no way. 3. that they have lack of food will just increase their morale because they will be very happy to fight the imperialists that deny them food (from trade(sanctions)) 4. would the south koreans have a high morale against north, that argument can be used by both sides, so its basically invalid argument.

[Stalinist Speaker]

I would imagine that it is quite possibly the law that you have to.

Devrim

well it isn't a law in other countries, as i said check their embassy if you have one in you country, in my country they have pictures of their leader in for their homes (ambassadors, other people)

[Stalinist Speaker]

I would imagine that it is quite possibly the law that you have to.

Devrim

just go and watch 10 or more videos about the DPRK you'll se how much they look up to Kim il-sung.

[Devrim]

well it isn't a law in other countries, as i said check their embassy if you have one in you country, in my country they have pictures of their leader in for their homes (ambassadors, other people)

Of course there are laws similar to this in other countries. In Turkey, for example, every classroom, every workplace, every bar or café is legally obliged to have a picture of the first president, around who the personality cult is constructed on the wall. It is true that it doesn't extend to people's homes.

Devrim

[RedHal]

They would resist a war, or do you mean that they would resist the US? If resisting the US, I think that following a Korean reunification, or at least normal contact between the North and South, the people of North Korea will feel like they've been duped.

Millions of North Koreans are weak from starvation, addicted to drugs such meth, and I'm pretty sure most care more about their lives and families than dying fighting a futile fight. I mean, South Korea alone could easily take on North Korea, and when it comes to patriotism, North Korea's won't be so high when they're fighting their fellow Koreans.

in case of war, the South Korean military will fall under the command of the US military, that's how much of a US puppet South Korea is.

[Brotto Rühle]

They looked up to Kim jong il too...I mean, crying or clapping for like 15 straight minutes? So glorious to see the love for dear leader. Ive seen the videos where the north Korean people all take 5 minutes our of their 4 hour work days to all gather in their Soviets to discuss ways to make sure Kim is doing good and help him crush the Yankees. It's beautiful to see when they keep electing Kims. North Korea, certainly is best Korea.:laugh:

[Stalinist Speaker]

Of course there are laws similar to this in other countries. In Turkey, for example, every classroom, every workplace, every bar or café is legally obliged to have a picture of the first president, around who the personality cult is constructed on the wall. It is true that it doesn't extend to people's homes.

Devri

i am not talking about in north korea i'm talking about north koreans living in other countries and don't have the laws of DPRK.

[Devrim]

i am not talking about in north korea i'm talking about north koreans living in other countries and don't have the laws of DPRK.

Sorry for misunderstanding.


well it isn't a law in other countries, as i said check their embassy if you have one in you country, in my country they have pictures of their leader in for their homes (ambassadors, other people)

So people who are state functionaries have a picture of the head of state in their homes. What a surprise.

Devrim

[Japan]

-snip double post-

[Japan]

in case of war, the South Korean military will fall under the command of the US military, that's how much of a US puppet South Korea is.

What makes you think that?

[Stalinist Speaker]

Sorry for misunderstanding.



So people who are state functionaries have a picture of the head of state in their homes. What a surprise.

Devrim

and ones again i didn't only say ambassadors, i was talking about regular people to, (they are most common in russia and china) they have nothing to do with the state but they have lived in the DPRK before and moved out (most likely before 1991) and they also have pictures of them at home (sometimes)

[Japan]

and ones again i didn't only say ambassadors, i was talking about regular people to, (they are most common in russia and china) they have nothing to do with the state but they have lived in the DPRK before and moved out (most likely before 1991) and they also have pictures of them at home (sometimes)

Proof, please.

[Brotto Rühle]

and ones again i didn't only say ambassadors, i was talking about regular people to, (they are most common in russia and china) they have nothing to do with the state but they have lived in the DPRK before and moved out (most likely before 1991) and they also have pictures of them at home (sometimes)

Not sure what's so special about nationalists with daddy issues.

[Stalinist Speaker]

Not sure what's so special about nationalists with daddy issues.
thats was my point from the beginning! the people of the DPRK (most of them) are very patriotic.

[Japan]

1. N.koreans are not addicted on drugs they dont have problems with drugs and that story is a made up lie. 2. south korea does not stand a chance the
DPRK's army is twice as big as South has and North also got 8 million people in reserve so no way. 3. that they have lack of food will just increase their morale because they will be very happy to fight the imperialists that deny them food (from trade(sanctions)) 4. would the south koreans have a high morale against north, that argument can be used by both sides, so its basically invalid argument.

1. Really? Just google "North Korea meth."

2. North Korea's numbers don't really matter much when you realize that North Korea can't afford to call up 40% of its population to fight, while South Korea can largely afford to call up more troops, with its larger population (more than twice NK's size), larger economy, and larger industrial and war-making capacity.

I mean, what about the food? Who'll work on the collective farms, the sotoji, or the factories? North Korea's supplies would run out in a flash, and the current food situation would turn just abysmal.

Not to mention, the rate of desertion would just as horrible for the North Koreans, particularly for those that come from areas which speak the Seoul and Gangwon dialects, who would likely be able to blend in with the rest of society. Many North Koreans know that the South has much better living standards, and especially once actually seeing how much better life is in the south, wouldn't hesitate to trade having to fight a futile fight for a better life.

The DPRK doesn't have sheer numbers on its side unless the PRC directly intervenes with millions of troops.

3. What?.. I don't even...

4. Where did I say that?

[Remus Bleys]

thats was my point from the beginning! the people of the DPRK (most of them) are very patriotic.
Why is this a plus?
We as communists are anti-nationalist, correct?

If anything, it proves the anti-socialist nature of the Korean government.

[Red_Banner]

Why is this a plus?
We as communists are anti-nationalist, correct?

If anything, it proves the anti-socialist nature of the Korean government.


I thought we were internationalist.

[Stalinist Speaker]

Why is this a plus?
We as communists are anti-nationalist, correct?

If anything, it proves the anti-socialist nature of the Korean government.

Patriotism is a very important factor in a war (thats what made the soviets win) that is the reason why they can defend itself against US imperialism because people are going to fight for their country whatever it takes, sometimes Patriotism/nationalism is necessary, otherwise you cant uphold a country against imperialism, If you have a to high dissent your people will rather support other countries than their own (Like the US) and that my friend if people in the DPRK started being anti-government then it wouldn't take long before imperialism comes to their doorstep with their so called liberation. that is what holds the DPRK up. it wouldn't be nationalist, it wouldn't have borders and it would be pure socialism if not due to imperialism. The answer is looking on a big picture and using dialectical materialism and you would understand why they are nationalist e.t.c thats the same with almost everything for example the KPRF using a bit of nationalism, try to figure it out yourself why they do it. Remember its all about contradiction.
You have to deal with one problem at the time and the biggest problem today is imperialism and its literally impossible to abolish borders and the state if imperialism exists.

! Keep in mind we are talking about left wing nationalism, big difference to right wing nationalism

[Stalinist Speaker]

I thought we were internationalist.

that is the final goal but it cant be since the presence of imperialism, and also we have to defend ourselves against other countries. its a big contradiction.
Read above^

[Red_Banner]

that is the final goal but it cant be since the presence of imperialism, and also we have to defend ourselves against other countries. its a big contradiction.
Read above^

North Korea's xenophobia isn't getting them anywhere.

[Stalinist Speaker]

North Korea's xenophobia isn't getting them anywhere.

what other option do they have? just give up? i would say they are waiting for socialism to grow, probably the rise of communism in russia in the future, that would relive the situation for them a lot.

[Remus Bleys]

I thought we were internationalist.

Which neccesates antinationalism.

[#FF0000]

what other option do they have? just give up? i would say they are waiting for socialism to grow, probably the rise of communism in russia in the future, that would relive the situation for them a lot.

I don't know why you'd assume that -- seeing as North Korea is not socialist.

Tell me, who decided that Kim Jong Un should come to power?


Atomic weapons are far more complicated than nuking Pyongyand and losing Seoul:rolleyes: You have China and Russia who wouldn't be at all pleased with Nukes being set off near their boarders, this isn't some video game.

Er, I don't think I said anything about nuking Pyongyang. The US wouldn't need to, frankly. A war between SK/US and NK would result in the end of North Korea as an independent nation, and seeing as that's the case, I don't think it's beyond possibility that they would nuke Seoul as a parting shot.

Then again, I can't really see any of this happening under Kim Jong Un.

[Stalinist Speaker]

I don't know why you'd assume that -- seeing as North Korea is not socialist.

Tell me, who decided that Kim Jong Un should come to power?





as i already stated lots of times already that family is an important picture for the north koreans, they give them hope and strength, that a big source of the north korean patriotism which is very important for the DPRK if it wants to exist.

[#FF0000]

as i already stated lots of times already that family is an important picture for the north koreans, they give them hope and strength, that a big source of the north korean patriotism which is very important for the DPRK if it wants to exist.

So all power has to be concentrated into the hands of the Kim dynasty and the military leadership for N Korea to survive. Power in the hands of the people would be the end of North Korea?

[Stalinist Speaker]

So all power has to be concentrated into the hands of the Kim dynasty and the military leadership for N Korea to survive. Power in the hands of the people would be the end of North Korea?

have you read what i wrote earlier? did i ever claim that people didn.t have power, no i said the opposite that people have power but its more limited then what it is used to be due to the big threat fo US imperialism.

[Durruti's friend]

have you read what i wrote earlier? did i ever claim that people didn.t have power, no i said the opposite that people have power but its more limited then what it is used to be due to the big threat fo US imperialism.
C'mon, give an example of how the people have control over NK. I won't even ask for you to prove that the proletariat has control over the means of production (which would be necessary for socialism), I'll be satisfied by proof of regular parliamentary democracy if it includes free elections.

Also, don't you think that if a regime needs blind obedience, deification of leaders and blatant nationalism to survive, that something is really wrong with it?

[#FF0000]

no i said the opposite that people have power

How do they have any power? Over what? Exercised how?

[Per Levy]

have you read what i wrote earlier? did i ever claim that people didn.t have power, no i said the opposite that people have power but its more limited then what it is used to be due to the big threat fo US imperialism.

really? i mean if the NK people actually held power they more than likely would defend NK from anything that threaten to take that power away from, but you tell me since NK is threatend that the NK leadership took away most of the power from the NK people? doesnt make much sense.

[Per Levy]

How do they have any power? Over what? Exercised how?

through the kims and the military of course, the kims are the people or the only people that count anyway.

[revolutionarymir]

I went there early in April this year, at the height of the 'nuclear crisis' at the time, what with missile posturing, war preparations, industrial zone shutdowns, etc. The day I arrived, my country's foreign ministry made an official warning against entering the country. The trip, which only lasted a few days because I picked the absolutely cheapest option to spend my savings on, was arranged by Koryo Tours (excellent company, service-wise) and went very well. Except the time my contact lens cases were stolen. Heh.

It's a bit hard to summarise the whole thing, but feel free to ask anything.

That's quite interesting. What would you say, based off of your trip, is the most widespread Western misconception about it?

[Hrafn]

That's quite interesting. What would you say, based off of your trip, is the most widespread Western misconception about it?

The isolation. In Pyongyang, that is, I can't speak for the rest of the country.

[#FF0000]

through the kims and the military of course, the kims are the people or the only people that count anyway.

the Kims are just the will of the north korean people made manfiest, kind of like Captain Planet.

[Pleb]

Discuss Kim dynasty and Confucianism.

is Confucianism relevant? I mean, does it explain anything about the Kim dynasty?

[Japan]

what other option do they have? just give up? i would say they are waiting for socialism to grow, probably the rise of communism in russia in the future, that would relive the situation for them a lot.

Yeah, no. They're slowly adopting capitalist reforms, and I doubt that the country's elite would want to give up their luxuries and privileges by advancing onto communism.

[Japan]

the Kims are just the will of the north korean people made manfiest, kind of like Captain Planet.

Not really, no.

What makes you think that?

[#FF0000]

Not really, no.

What makes you think that?

That was jokes.

[Japan]

That was jokes.

Oh, oops. :o

[Old Bolshie]

C'mon, give an example of how the people have control over NK. I won't even ask for you to prove that the proletariat has control over the means of production (which would be necessary for socialism), I'll be satisfied by proof of regular parliamentary democracy if it includes free elections.


Regular parliamentary democracy is an example of people's control over a country?

[Japan]

Regular parliamentary democracy is an example of people's control over a country?

You mean single candidate elections without a secret ballot?..

[Old Bolshie]

You mean single candidate elections without a secret ballot?..

If that is what regular parliamentary democracy means to you...

[Japan]

If that is what regular parliamentary democracy means to you...

Oh, oops, interpreted your post incorrectly. Gah, what is up with me today? :lol:

[Durruti's friend]

Regular parliamentary democracy is an example of people's control over a country?
No, but I understand that I have expressed myself badly. What I meant to say is that when there is already no proof of actual people's control over the country (via worker's councils, soviets, delegates, etc.) it would be nice to give at least proof of such limited, parliamentary democracy, whether one or multi-party.

Because, as much as I understand it, parliamentary democracy is still a step ahead for the proletariat from oligarchical rule of the military and/or Kim family, in NK's case. Ergo, I don't think parliamentary democracy is people's rule, but it allows the people (workers) some, albeit very limited, control over the bourgeois state, which simply doesn't exist in a country ruled by the military and worshiping the dogma of the Eternal President. Or maybe it does exist, but I am yet to see evidence for that.

[Old Bolshie]

No, but I understand that I have expressed myself badly. What I meant to say is that when there is already no proof of actual people's control over the country (via worker's councils, soviets, delegates, etc.) it would be nice to give at least proof of such limited, parliamentary democracy, whether one or multi-party.

Because, as much as I understand it, parliamentary democracy is still a step ahead for the proletariat from oligarchical rule of the military and/or Kim family, in NK's case. Ergo, I don't think parliamentary democracy is people's rule, but it allows the people (workers) some, albeit very limited, control over the bourgeois state, which simply doesn't exist in a country ruled by the military and worshiping the dogma of the Eternal President. Or maybe it does exist, but I am yet to see evidence for that.

And parliamentary democracies aren't oligarchical rules?

And how a parliamentary democracy gives to workers a control (even limited) over the bourgeois state?

[Durruti's friend]

And parliamentary democracies aren't oligarchical rules?
You could call them such, yes. But a democracy presupposes some sort of people's control, which can limit (slightly) the bourgeois oligarchical rule. There are systems in which the (national) bourgeoisie can rule without such weak limits imposed on them, like fascism or, well, juche.


And how a parliamentary democracy gives to workers a control (even limited) over the bourgeois state? Through referendums and petitions on one side and protests and strikes on the other. I'd even dare to say through regular elections. We can't fully control the state, but we can make it accept some of our demands, even through such 'legal' means. And the North Korean proletariat doesn't really have such options.

Of course, as neither western style capitalism, nor the North Korean jucheist regime can be taken down by the means of parliamentary politics, a revolutionary movement of the proletariat is needed in both cases.

[Old Bolshie]

You could call them such, yes. But a democracy presupposes some sort of people's control, which can limit (slightly) the bourgeois oligarchical rule. There are systems in which the (national) bourgeoisie can rule without such weak limits imposed on them, like fascism or, well, juche.

Democracy exists for the ruling class and presupposes control for the ruling class only. Voting between candidates of the ruling class to take the government is not a limit of any kind to the bourgeois oligarchical rule.


Through referendums and petitions on one side and protests and strikes on the other. I'd even dare to say through regular elections. We can't fully control the state, but we can make it accept some of our demands, even through such 'legal' means. And the North Korean proletariat doesn't really have such options.

We don't make them accept any of our demands. They give us as much as they (ruling class) are willing to give and they can at any time remove it like they are doing now in Greece and Portugal.

Referendums, petitions or the right to protest are nothing more than empty and illusory political forms which are put in place by the ruling class to legitimize its rule over the people as the rule of the people. There is no control over the bourgeois state at all.

[Marshal of the People]

Some of the things said about North Korea are just false like US propaganda (like them eating babies for example) though a lot of it is true (like treating their people as if they are cattle). North Korea is neither socialist nor communist it is an absolute monarch where the leader (currently Kim Jong Un) owns every single thing in the nation including the people. (well that's just my opinion on it anyway)