Optimism?

[Huey Prashker]

Are most people here optimistic about the future of class struggle? I don't know what to think anymore.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Are most people here optimistic about the future of class struggle? I don't know what to think anymore.Optimism is important and I don't think someone could be a revolutionary without it. Pessimissm and passivity go together; however high hopes without also antipating other options can cause demoralization and pessimissm. So looking for the best potential short-term possibility is a must IMO, but it also has to be balenced with the knowledge that there are always a range of possibilities in every situation and we need to be able to tactically retreat as well as charge, so to speak.

As for right, now, no one would be crazy to be discouraged. Class struggle is happening and it's happening in a more intense way even after a generation of more agressive ruling capitalist classes - it's just that the struggle is against us as a class. The real issue is, as workers, if we have organization and the ability to assert ourselves in the struggle and to push back or maybe even advance against the moves by the capitalists. We don't right now, and I think our main task, as radicals, is to try and change that equation by trying to help build up independant class politics and militancy.

[Art Vandelay]

Optimism is important and I don't think someone could be a revolutionary without it.

This is false; anyone who claims that being both an optimist and a Marxist are somehow compatible, has a serious misunderstanding of the concepts. 'Optimism' is characterized as a world view which views situations as being optimized. It runs along a similar line of argumentation as the 'principle of stationary action,' (at least when applied as a methodology, which is the only sense it can be honestly interpreted as) and is an entirely faith based conviction. Whether or not one (through an act of cognitive dissonance) considers themselves both a Marxist and a optimist, is no more relevant, then whether or not one considers themselves both a Marxist and a scientologist; the two use incompatible and fundamentally antagonistic methodologies.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'd actually go as far to say, that anyone who claims that being both an optimist and a communist are somehow compatible, has a serious misunderstanding of the concepts.Oh are we talking about some academic philosophical concept of optomism or "optomism of the will" or something? Or are we talking about being optomistic, as in looking for the best potential outcome?

[Art Vandelay]

As the edit in my post clarified (which I'm guessing you didn't see before responding), I'm referring to 'optimism' in the sense of what it actually means as a term; irregardless of how it's used in our societal terminology, it refers to something specific.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

This is false; anyone who claims that being both an optimist and a Marxist are somehow compatible, has a serious misunderstanding of the concepts.
I’m a pessimist because of intelligence, but an optimist because of will. - Gramsci

[Art Vandelay]

Gramsci was a hack, culture is pure superstructure. Again though, I'm not talking about 'optimism' as is it generally used, but rather what it refers to as a methodology. If Gramsci was seriously attempting to put forth the idea that optimism represents anything but a negation of materialist analysis, then he has a whole lot of argumentation left before him.

[Blake's Baby]

... irregardless ...

You realise, while you argue about what 'optimistic' means, that this isn't a word?

The word you are looking for is 'regardless', from 'regard' and 'less', meaning 'without care'. 'Irregardless' would mean (if it existed) 'the opposite of without care' - which implies that you're neologising in order to say that you do care about non-scientific definitions of 'optimism'.

[Art Vandelay]

You realise, while you argue about what 'optimistic' means, that this isn't a word?

The word you are looking for is 'regardless', from 'regard' and 'less', meaning 'without care'. 'Irregardless' would mean (if it existed) 'the opposite of without care' - which implies that you're neologising in order to say that you do care about non-scientific definitions of 'optimism'.

Excuse my grammatical error, its late (make that early) here. In my defense, its a rather common mistake.

[Jimmie Higgins]

You realise, while you argue about what 'optimistic' means, that this isn't a word?

The word you are looking for is 'regardless', from 'regard' and 'less', meaning 'without care'. 'Irregardless' would mean (if it existed) 'the opposite of without care'.It's actually correct terminology even though it's a double-negative: "regardless of regard". I looked it up:lol:. Then again, literally literally means "figurativly" according to some definitions now:glare:.

At any rate, "optomism" is in the common form is, I think, what the OP was asking about: are people optomistic (i.e. is there possibility, hope) for class struggle.

In the panglossian sense of optimism, no, you can't really be any kind of materialist and think that things will work out for the best by wishing it.

But in optimism vs. cynacism or pessimism, I think revolutionaries need to have this and project this (as long as the optimism is within a realistic range of possibilities). Sober optomism? The mood of the neoliberal era is steeped in pessamism and cynacism and I think that helps keep general expectations low and maintains an atmosphere where people feel they have no option but to accomodate to the demands of capitalism.

[Blake's Baby]

It's actually correct terminology even though it's a double-negative: "regardless of regard"...

OK - Mr.Populi wasn't neologising. But 'irregardless' (from 'not + regard + without') can't mean 'caring about not caring' (or not caring about caring). 'Regardless' means 'without regard'. 'Irregardless' means 'not without regard', ie 'with regard', ie 'regarding'.

[Art Vandelay]

OK - Mr.Populi wasn't neologising. But the word still means the opposite of what he's using it to mean, regardless of how some people misuse it. I said would mean 'the opposite of without care' (= your 'regardless of regard').

And I've already stated that my usage of it was mistaken, can we forgive my less then perfect grasp of the English language?

[Blake's Baby]

Oh, missed that bit.

And then realised I'd misunderstood what Jimmie was saying anyway and then completely changed my post.

[Jimmie Higgins]

OK - Mr.Populi wasn't neologising. But 'irregardless' (from 'not + regard + without') can't mean 'caring about not caring' (or not caring about caring). 'Regardless' means 'without regard'. 'Irregardless' means 'not without regard', ie 'with regard', ie 'regarding'.:laugh:

Yeah I think this is completely logical (I have used the term without thinking about it, and someone mentioned it to me and I realized that it was a total non-word). But language is also flexible, terms take on a life of their own, and English isn't very logical anyway - Regardless, it's now considered "correct" english. The misuse (and now acceptable misuse) of "literally" bothers me more personally because it's not a dounble-negative or non-word, it's literally something that means something significantly different.

But don't blame me - save your fire for the Big Biblio Jesus aka the O.E.D.!


According to the Oxford English Dictionary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_English_Dictionary) (OED), Irregardless was first acknowledged in 1912 by the Wentworth American Dialect Dictionary (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wentworth_American_Dialect_Diction ary&action=edit&redlink=1) as originating from western Indiana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana),[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless#cite_note-murray-2) though the word was in use in South Carolina before Indiana became a territory.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless#cite_note-gazette-1) The usage dispute over irregardless was such that, in 1923, Literary Digest (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_Digest) published an article titled "Is There Such a Word as Irregardless in the English Language?". The OED goes on to explain the word is primarily a North American colloquialism.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irregardless#cite_note-murray-2)


And I've already stated that my usage of it was mistaken, can we forgive my less then perfect grasp of the English language? No forgiveness needed, it's no big deal. Anyway, I'm much worse :grin:.

Sorry for the digression/derail.

[Blake's Baby]

... But language is also flexible, terms take on a life of their own, and English isn't very logical anyway - Regardless, it's now considered "correct" english...

Not in England it's not. But you're right that language changes. And there are many more speakers of American English than British English. Numbers are on your side. On the other hand, there are more speakers of 'Indian English' than American English, so you better learn it Mumbai-style, homeys.

[Thirsty Crow]

Are most people here optimistic about the future of class struggle? I don't know what to think anymore.
I'm not, as far as the country where I live goes, and beyond in fact.

But optimisim is usless. Who gives a fuck how I feel after all.

[Alonso Quijano]

This is false; anyone who claims that being both an optimist and a Marxist are somehow compatible, has a serious misunderstanding of the concepts. 'Optimism' is characterized as a world view which views situations as being optimized. It runs along a similar line of argumentation as the 'principle of stationary action,' (at least when applied as a methodology, which is the only sense it can be honestly interpreted as) and is an entirely faith based conviction. Whether or not one (through an act of cognitive dissonance) considers themselves both a Marxist and a optimist, is no more relevant, then whether or not one considers themselves both a Marxist and a scientologist; the two use incompatible and fundamentally antagonistic methodologies.
On the other hand, I see that Marx did claim that communism is inevitable, and favoured capitalist revolutions as they hurry the formation of two classes.