Dislike of Anna Gunn's "Skyler White" character on "Breaking bad"

[MarxSchmarx]

Anna Gunn, who portrays the wife of the protagonist of the American hit series "Breaking Bad", wrote an editorial

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/24/opinion/i-have-a-character-issue.html?_r=1&

in which she found that a lot of the viewer's ire was strangely directed her way because she was a women. Some of the more memorable lines from her editorial are that:


But I finally realized that most people’s hatred of Skyler had little to do with me and a lot to do with their own perception of women and wives. Because Skyler didn’t conform to a comfortable ideal of the archetypical female, she had become a kind of Rorschach test for society, a measure of our attitudes toward gender.


(the show's main writer) and the show’s writers made Skyler multilayered and, in her own way, morally compromised. But at the end of the day, she hasn’t been judged by the same set of standards as Walter.
and

(this discussion about her character) has illuminated some of the dark and murky corners that we often ignore or pretend aren’t still there in our everyday lives.

I am wondering what comrades who watch this show think. Do your perceptions accord with Gunn's treatment? Do you think Gunn has a point about how the writers portrayed her? What do you think is the reason for the vitriol directed at her character?

What I am also interested in are what specifically about television and perhaps this show may make people inclined to express such strong feelings against a character as to fail to distinguish between what is in the end a "make believe" environment and an IRL person? How is this level of investment possible under capitalism?

[Os Cangaceiros]

I haven't seen BB in a while, and I only watched the first four seasons (so far), but I remember not liking her character, esp. in the show's second season. I can't remember the specifics, but I remember feeling that her character didn't handle her deteriorating relationship with Walter in a mature, adult fashion. Like, her reaction to him wasn't explosive or anything, that would've been completely understandable given his behavior, but I remember it being just...really passive aggressive and stupid.

Then she got involved in his meth business, which I didn't like at first because I thought, if I was in WW's position I'd remember her annoying behavior & be vindictive and tell her where to shove it, but later in the show I had a more positive view of her character when she became more down with the ol' narcotics trade. Dunno what her character is like now.

[Creative Destruction]

Absolutely. The hate that is heaped upon Skylar and Gunn herself is atrocious and it isn't inordinate behavior for a lot of Breaking Bad fans, especially male fans. Vince Gilligan wanted this show to be a sociological experiment, and I think the most compelling thing to come out of it is how deeply misogynistic and backwards a lot of the people who watch this show are. And since it is one of the most watched television shows in American history, I can't help but take it as an attitude more generalized with the population; this kind of misogyny and patriarchy.

A big part of the show is male pride. This patriarchal idea that men need to be the sole providers of the family and do whatever it takes to provide for them, and men attach a lot of pride to that. It's used as a stick to beat other men over the head with (especially by white men done to black men who are down and out in the job market), but it also leads to self-destructive behaviors by men. A primary reason that guys kill themselves is because they feel like they're inadequate if they lose their job or what have you. So there's a lot tied up in that. And to have a female character come up and say "Hey, you can't do this. You're going to hurt yourself, this family and others," it pisses off a lot of guys because the reason he's doing it, ostensibly at first, was to make sure his family is provided for.

Breaking Bad is brilliant, in my opinion, because it does show how male ego, pride and patriarchy can be absolutely and totally destructive. And I find it frightening that there are male fans who identify with and sympathize with what Walt has done instead of looking deeper and seeing that ego and pride that they've hitched their wagons to could be extremely harmful to them, their families and those that surround them. I'd go as far as to say that Breaking Bad is a radical critique of patriarchy.

[Os Cangaceiros]

^Is the excuse of "he was just trying to provide for his family" really a valid defense of Walter White's character's behavior? Because as I remember the show made it pretty clear that he was someone who enjoyed being a criminal very much, in fact it seemed like that enjoyment of violence and intrigue was something that was latent in his personality the whole time, and was only activated by his newfound involvement in the drug trade. It seemed like the financial protection motive was only an extremely thin layer of bullshit esp in light of later plot developments (ie his former friend offering to give him top-notch health insurance, his successful remission, his first huge meth deal, etc)

I also think the show makes it pretty clear that Walter White is a scumbag narcissist, but he's kind of fun to root for as an anti-hero :grin:

[Creative Destruction]

The show is clear about who the relative bad characters and good characters are. Many fans of the show are not so clear on this point.

[Ocean Seal]

I personally disagree. She wasn't wholeheartedly hated, and I think most of the characters on that show had at least a section of the viewers hate them.

[bcbm]

i always liked her character and appreciated that she saw through walt's shit and often called him on it. i think it is the fifth season (?) where she basically just gives up and acts passive-aggressive towards him all the time and smokes in the house? great stuff. i wasn't really aware of all the hatred towards her online but it doesn't really surprise me for the reasons she outlines in her editorial. disappointing though.

[Futility Personified]

I found her irksome as fuck, to be honest. But the anger directed towards the actress was completely out of order, the hate directed towards the character? When (SPOILERWalt does the phone call to her and starts calling her a ***** and shit for whatever purposeI thought that was the writers way of showing what the petty spiteful thoughts of the commentators sounded like actualised.

[Lily Briscoe]

I'm way behind on Breaking Bad, actually. My partner got me into it recently and we're watching it from the beginning on netflix streaming. I'm only on season 3. Thanks for the spoiler by the way, Os Cangaceiros... god!

Anyway, I really didn't like Skylar for awhile, because she just seemed like a goody-goody soccer mom type (the 'goody-goody' aspect of her personality is starting to fade out, so I'm beginning to like her a little bit more actually). I've hated Walter from the very beginning, though; I thought that was sort of the point? I don't know anything about the internet reaction to her character, but since when is the 'internet reaction' to anything, anything less than atrocious? In any case, I think part of the problem is actually that the leading parts written for women in a lot of these shows tend to be really irritating. I mean, jesus christ, Anna Gunn mentions Carmella Soprano as a 'strong woman'. Carmella Soprano, are you freaking kidding me? My favorite character in the Sopranos and Breaking Bad have both been females with bit roles, and definitely not of the Skylar White/Carmella Soprano 'soccer mom with a secret' model...at all. In the Sopranos, it was Adriana La Cerva (I literally never watched another episode of that show after she was killed, as ridiculous as that sounds lol) and Jane Margolis in Breaking Bad. Unfortunately, they were both relatively minor characters, and as soon as they started occupying a more central part of the storyline... killed.

[synthesis]

I think the point of the "strong woman" thing (vis-a-vis Carmella Soprano) is that they are women who interfered with the male protagonist's "self-affirmative behavior," to put it very generously, and therefore interfered with the audience's proclivity to live vicariously through them.

Personally, I just didn't find Skylar to be a very sympathetic character for the first couple seasons, which definitely changed once she began to deal with the situation on her own terms. It didn't really surprise me to learn that people vocally hated her character - I just saw it as yet another manifestation of all the free time people have on their hands - but death threats against Anna Gunn? How fucked up in the head do you have to be to do something like that?

[Skyhilist]

I can't really stand her to be honest, although I'm in the middle of the 4th season now and I don't think she's as bad as before. Really in the times where I find myself being frustrated with her it's because she's being completely controlling and immature.
For example in season 1:
That scene with the "talking pillow" where she completely freaks out and gets all angry just because someone disagrees with her. That's the kind of behavior I mean. And that was before she even knew anything about the meth.

[Il Medico]

I never really liked Skylar White to be honest. There were certain moments that made me think "Nah, yo, fuck you Skylar" though out the series (like when she pushed for Walt to kill Jesse this season), but nothing on the scale of the hate I felt for Walt. Honestly, I actively disliked or hated almost everybody on Breaking Bad (except Mike, Gus, Saul, Jesse, and Heull/cuby)

[Skyhilist]

Honestly, I actively disliked or hated almost everybody on Breaking Bad (except Mike, Gus, Saul, Jesse, and Heull/cuby)

What made you hate Walt Jr.?

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I never really liked Skylar White to be honest. There were certain moments that made me think "Nah, yo, fuck you Skylar" though out the series (like when she pushed for Walt to kill Jesse this season), but nothing on the scale of the hate I felt for Walt. Honestly, I actively disliked or hated almost everybody on Breaking Bad (except Mike, Gus, Saul, Jesse, and Heull/cuby)

This so much. I stopped thinking of Walt as a protagonist the moment he rejected Jesse's wish to retire.


What made you hate Walt Jr.?

I thought he acted really childish for his age. I mean, I was aware of shit like this going down at age nine - surely he'd get a clue. I've got nothing against his acting but it came off to me as really cheesy how they made him come off as 'the model young boy', and downplayed his thinking or decisions in the show.

[Lily Briscoe]

I'd go as far as to say that Breaking Bad is a radical critique of patriarchy.

I actually came to the exact opposite conclusion about the show's 'political orientation'. Ever since the first couple episodes I had the impression that the writer/producer/creator guy was coming from a conservative perspective (whether it's the portrayal of cops/DEA as 'good, honest, heroic people who sometimes use excessive force due to the unbearable psychological trauma of their thankless jobs', or jesse pinkman's repeated "what kind of a mother are you?!?!?!" tirades directed at 'bad mothers' where the audience is clearly intended to share his absurdly hypocritical moral outrage, or the poor innocent small businessman who is being unjustly pressured to comply with environmental protection laws which are really just fronts for corrupt druglords who want to destroy competition, etc. etc.).

So I googled it just as I was typing this, and I found this interview with the show's creator (I can't post links but you can google + copy/paste if you want the source):


Interviewer: How do you identify yourself politically?
Vince Gilligan: I’m not real comfortable talking about politics. I’m probably more conservative than most folks in the business. But the best way I can put it to you is, here at age 46, I am less interested in politics than I’ve ever been in my life. Politics don’t serve a lot of good. I’m not talking about government—government serves a lot of good. But politics don’t seem to be reaping a lot of positive benefits these days.

Interviewer: What do you think of the drug laws in the U.S.?
Vine Gilligan: I understand why a drug like meth would be illegal, but I don’t spend a lot of time thinking about our laws. Our country is run by good people, more or less, who want the best for their own families, but as with most things that pass through the filter of politics, things get messed up.
lol what a visionary. surely a true warrior against The Patriarchy.

and really this is why I think the article in the OP is bullshit. Skyler White isn't real; she is a fictional character created by an, apparently conservative, dude. And if you write female characters who are basically nagging, boring, one-dimensional (even the supposed 'multi-dimensionality' of skyler white is totally one-dimensional) domestic appendages of more interesting male characters - women whose entire existence and interaction with the world seems to be defined in relation to their more important male partners - of course they are going to be disliked. But the 'sexism' is in the audience's inevitable failure to identify with them? Really? You guys do know that real female human beings don't actually behave like bad tropes on a television show, right...?

To be clear, I like the show enough to keep watching it. but fortunately I'm the type of person who can enjoy mindless entertainment without feeling the need to justify it to myself politically.

[synthesis]

Vince Gilligan's personal views aside, I think the fact that Breaking Bad can be read as both "a radical critique of patriarchy" and that it's coming from "a conservative perspective" is really a testament to how well done the show is. Art shouldn't be easy to pin down, message-wise, and the more possible interpretations of it the better, in my opinion.

Again, I don't know that her criticism of the audience reaction has to do with her character as a "real female human being," but as a foil for the protagonist. I'm thinking of Michael Shannon's wife in Boardwalk Empire - I won't spoil anything, but suffice it to say that she does not exactly disapprove of what her husband does. Unfortunately, as with a lot of female characters, "strong" is sometimes expressed by the writers as a synonym for simply "opinionated" and "antagonistic" - whether those characteristics can be attributed to Skylar is up for debate, but I think it's a reasonable criticism from Anna Gunn, that those characteristics would not be seen to be as negative in a male character.

[Lily Briscoe]

Vince Gilligan's personal views aside, I think the fact that Breaking Bad can be read as both "a radical critique of patriarchy" and that it's coming from "a conservative perspective" is really a testament to how well done the show is. Art shouldn't be easy to pin down, message-wise, and the more possible interpretations of it the better, in my opinion.


Again, I don't think the show is hard to 'pin down' politically at all. To me, the suggestion in this thread that it is a 'radical critique of patriarchy' represents the need that some people here apparently feel to try to politically justify their entertainment choices, as opposed to any sort of objective interpretation of the show's 'message'.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Anna Gunn, who portrays the wife of the protagonist of the American hit series "Breaking Bad", wrote an editorial I haven't seen the show, so I don't know the character or any of the bile directed towards the character or actor, but I did actually hear something about this editorial and I think as a larger phenomena it holds up with other shows and movies that I am familiar with.

"The Walking Dead" is another example of implied-mysogeny directed towards the main female cast members from a section of fans (hmm, the show is one of the most popular in the young-males ratings category).

In part I think the anger is due to poorly written female characters (at least on Walking Dead - if Breaking Bad lives up to the media hype, it would be interesting if well-written characters also get this treatment) who seem to have little of their own agency and are defined by their relation to male characters and/or children. Not that the fans in question are angry about the flatness of the character: instead, with Walking Dead they'd blog and create fan-art about killing off the character. Other characters are just as flat and stupid, but there seems to be a special anger at female characters.

[synthesis]

Again, I don't think the show is hard to 'pin down' politically at all. To me, the suggestion in this thread that it is a 'radical critique of patriarchy' represents the need that some people here apparently feel to try to politically justify their entertainment choices, as opposed to any sort of objective interpretation of the show's 'message'.

I don't think what he says in that quote means what you think it means, but I suppose that's beside the point. Basically, to me it seems like you're reading your own views into both the show and that interview just as much as anyone else, with just as much validity. Saying it has a consciously conservative agenda is as eisegetical as saying it's consciously critiquing patriarchy. It's a show that's deliberately designed not to force you to think a certain way about what's going on; Anna Gunn's analysis of Breaking Bad as a "Rorschach test" in the OP's article is very apt, in my opinion.

As a more minor issue, I don't agree at all with what you say about cops in Breaking Bad. Hank is supposed to be sympathetic as a family member of the protagonist, and supposedly the guy on the "right side" compared to Walt, but I still always thought he was a patronizing dick, and both the DEA office he gets transferred to and Mike are very ostensive examples of cops who aren't "good and honorable." I think it's also significant that Vince Gilligan was put off by how much people sympathized with Walt, especially towards the end of the run.

[#FF0000]

I don't really see how one could dislike Skylar. Her reactions to just about everything are entirely understandable, imo. The only point I didn't like her during the entire "SHOULD WE BUY A CAR WASH" thing, but I think I was just getting tired of that plot point (just buy the fucking car wash)

[Lily Briscoe]

I don't think what he says in that quote means what you think it means, but I suppose that's beside the point. Basically, to me it seems like you're reading your own views into both the show and that interview just as much as anyone else, with just as much validity. Saying it has a consciously conservative agenda is as eisegetical as saying it's consciously critiquing patriarchy. It's a show that's deliberately designed not to force you to think a certain way about what's going on; Anna Gunn's analysis of Breaking Bad as a "Rorschach test" in the OP's article is very apt, in my opinion.

My own views are not in the least bit conservative, so no, I am clearly not reading my own views into it. I guess you could make this argument if I was saying that I hate the show (and therefore trying to smear it as conservative), but I don't hate it all (so what possible reason would I, as someone with communist political views, have for reading conservative views into a show that I like watching?). I just don't think it is in any way, shape or form a 'radical critique of patriarchy' (conscious or otherwise). Unless the bar for what constitutes such a critique has just been set so unbelievably low that any depiction of men taking dangerous risks ostensibly to provide for their family constitutes a 'radical critique of patriarchy', in which case most popular American television shows in the same vein as Breaking Bad would fall under that banner (including, even more absurdly, the Sopranos). and if you actually believe this, then you are beyond hope IMO.

Also, I have never once said that the show has a "consciously conservative agenda", and I don't think that it does at all. But I think, like any television show, it implicitly reflects a certain worldview (which is primarily the worldview of whoever the creator is and--with mainstream television programs-- will tend to be some variant of the dominant worldview). And in this case, it is most certainly not a 'radical' worldview at all.

[synthesis]

My own views are not in the least bit conservative, so no, I am clearly not reading my own views into it. I guess you could make this argument if I was saying that I hate the show (and therefore trying to smear it as conservative), but I don't hate it all (so what possible reason would I, as someone with communist political views, have for reading conservative views into a show that I like watching?).

I would have thought it pretty obvious that I wasn't saying you're a conservative and are therefore reading conservative messages from the show. It's more that you've first decided the show is conservative and then gone back for the evidence, in the same way that someone who wants to present the show as progressive might do the same. I'd say that The Sopranos is definitely a conservative show; I really don't think this is the case for Breaking Bad.


I just don't think it is in any way, shape or form a 'radical critique of patriarchy' (conscious or otherwise). Unless the bar for what constitutes such a critique has just been set so unbelievably low that any depiction of men taking dangerous risks ostensibly to provide for their family constitutes a 'radical critique of patriarchy', in which case most popular American television shows in the same vein as Breaking Bad would fall under that banner (including, even more absurdly, the Sopranos). and if you actually believe this, then you are beyond hope IMO.

Also, I have never once said that the show has a "consciously conservative agenda", and I don't think that it does at all. But I think, like any television show, it implicitly reflects a certain worldview (which is primarily the worldview of whoever the creator is and--with mainstream television programs-- will tend to be some variant of the dominant worldview). And in this case, it is most certainly not a 'radical' worldview at all.

You'll notice that rednoise never said that the "radical critique of patriarchy" was a conscious inclusion either.

[Creative Destruction]

Yeah, that's an important point. I didn't know what Vince Gilligan's politics were until you posted that interview, Strix, but I was pretty sure he wasn't reading bell hooks or anything. It didn't strike me as a show written by someone who really cares about politics, and that's how it comes off in the interview. He just says he is "more conservative" than most in the industry, and that could mean a whole host of things.

I view it as a radical critique of patriarchy. There are some valid criticisms to be made of how Skyler was written in the first season, season-and-a-half, but even then I saw her character as doing something different from other female characters in most male-driven shows. She actually, up until the last part of the series, imbued it with a moral center. Seeing past her status as a suburban soccer mom, and getting past that trope in general, makes the character better, especially when you look at her in the surroundings she's in.

But, synthesis is right. This is what makes Breaking Bad good art and a good litmus test for society. It doesn't take any inherent political stance. It isn't really a political show. It allows you to project your worldview onto it and look at things a different way, which is why seeing the male audience react to Walt's character was fascinating and disturbing for the time I was following the show. They saw it as a guy who was just trying to provide for his family, and all these fucking people were just getting in his way. I saw it as a guy being destroyed by his own ego, and in the process, destroying the world around him...and I find that attitude in a lot of men, and I find that attitude is often linked to patriarchal ideas, like the idea of the man as the head of the household and sole provider of women and children. And a show has never confronted that idea as head on as Breaking Bad did.

[Creative Destruction]

Also, I don't need to justify shows to make them politically palatable. I get a kick out of Beavis and Butthead and King of the Hill, which A Real Serious Marxist probably would never watch (if they needed to politically justify shows themselves.)

[La Comédie Noire]

Here's the thing about Skyler. She acts passive aggressive and nagging because she still loves and sees the good in a man she's been married to for 20 years. She's doing everything she can to not turn Walt in, which in the end results in her morally compromising herself. She's a stay at home mom and a woman in a largely sexist society, so besides turning Walt in she has a very limited number of options in how to help her family.

And here's where the dimensionality comes in. She sees the big ole pile of cash and is like "wait a minute." Which I think speaks to the American ideal of wealth and providing for one's family. The money is both attractive and reassuring. 600,000 is enough for the rest of their lives.

Skyler and Walt are weary of crossing lines. The whole show is people drawing lines in the sand and then crossing them a few episodes later. Mostly either from outside circumstances or the attraction to money and power.

What's the difference between the two? Skyler redeems herself in the end. She moves into a shitty apartment on the bad side of town and begins working a menial job to in the show's opinion help her family honestly. There's the easy way and then there's the hard way.

So was Skyler a nag? Yes, but only because she didn't want to turn Walt in or have her family suffer the consequences of Walt's decision to cook meth.

Did she end up compromising herself? Yes, but no more than the male characters.

Is Breaking Bad sexist? A bit, but I truly do believe the writers sat down to make a character that was on the one hand realistic and on the other good dramatic fodder for 5 seasons. We could have had her turn in Walt immediately, but then we'd only have 3 seasons.

I think the best thing about the show is they stuck to their guns and kept Skyler one of the heros of the story. They made her flawed yes, but they wouldn't give in to the rampant sexism of some of the fans ( and interestingly enough I met a lot of woman who disliked Skyler too.)

Now why would that be? Well In American society there is an emphasis on achieving wealth and power. Walt's rise to power is both exhilarating and full of fuck yeah moments. Skyler... not so much, she has a lot of victories, yes, but It's mostly defensive maneuvering. There's "fuck yeah I just blew up a meth king pin's den... with science!" and "I fucked Ted... my husband is crazy this is the only way I can make him see it's over. Oh shit, it didn't work. F..ffuck yeah?"

I mean it really says something when she would go to such great lengths to protect her husband and her family that she'd make herself look like a crazy vindictive asshole and I really think the writing staff started doing this to draw a parallel with the fans and the people on the show. The people on the show think Skyler is petty and childish and shame her because thy have no idea who her husband is, but the fans do have this information and still react the same way. What doe's that say about us?

It's unfortunate, but she sacrifices one of the most important things a woman in a sexist society has to worry about. Her reputation and while it's sad she should have to worry about something in this day in age, it's also true to life.

I mean say what you want about Batman, but Skyler White is really the hero Albuquerque deserves, but not the one it needs right now.

[revolutionarymir]

I was a big fan of the show, if only for the fact that it showed that what is moral and what is legal are not necessarily the same thing, and it was leaning in the right direction politically if only for the fact that it showed the unnecessary depths an otherwise intelligent, nay, brilliant man had to sink to just to afford some damned healthcare and leave his family something behind other than bills and debt. So, in that sense, it could be viewed as having some sort of left-wing message, despite Vince's personal admissions about his own political leanings.

I did find the hate towards Skylar ridiculous; the only time I agreed with it was when she cheated on Walt, given the fact that (at least in the beginning) he was putting his life and liberty on the line solely to give his family an ostensibly better future, in addition to the fact that Ted was a bourgeoisie piece of shit. The character most deserving of hate, however, was invariably Hank, who routinely violated peoples' rights, was obviously racist (seen as early as S1,E1), and just an all around misogynist asshole. The scene with Walt Jr. and the hooker in the motel parking lot was particularly atrocious. How someone could view him as the "good guy" and a guy just trying to provide some cash for his family as the "bad guy" is beyond me, really. Sure Walt went a little (ok, a lot) overboard but at least he didn't pride himself on locking working class people in cages for victimless crimes.

[Creative Destruction]

Sure Walt went a little (ok, a lot) overboard but at least he didn't pride himself on locking working class people in cages for victimless crimes.

No, he only contributed to producing a drug that destroys many working class people's lives.

[revolutionarymir]

No, he only contributed to producing a drug that destroys many working class people's lives.

He did what he had to, and had there been proper programs in place, he wouldn't have had to worry about what his family would have after he was gone, thus destroying his entire life and his families' lives in the process.

[Two Buck Chuck]

Skyler annoyed me the first couple seasons, but I could understand why she acted the way she did. Once she found out about Walt's meth empire and started helping him out with his lies to other people, she became much more sympathetic and I was fully on her side by the start of season four.


There were certain moments that made me think "Nah, yo, fuck you Skylar" though out the series (like when she pushed for Walt to kill Jesse this season)

I loved it when she did that, pure Skysenberg.

[Creative Destruction]

He did what he had to, and had there been proper programs in place, he wouldn't have had to worry about what his family would have after he was gone, thus destroying his entire life and his families' lives in the process.

Sure, I agree. But that doesn't absolve him from what he did or make him some kind of hero, especially since the backdrop in which Walter is operating is not forcing him, particularly, to start cooking and distributing meth. A brilliant chemist could probably find some other ways of making income beyond a high school teacher's salary. Hell, Elliot had nearly twisted Walt's arm into taking a damn job with Grey Matter in one of the early seasons.

Cooking meth was a choice and pride played into it. That's why it was so refreshing for him to actually cop to it. He didn't hide behind his family anymore. Arguably, if he had some sort of life insurance policy, his family would've been covered to some extent.

IOW, the quandary that Walter White found himself in wasn't some ambiguous decision related to morality or to whether he needed to provide for his family. It was immoral, done for pride and power, and he destroyed lives in doing so. There are no two ways about it. We're not talking about the kinds of situations where, say, in Mexico, scores of people are pretty much forced into a life of crime by the cartels (one popular saying of the cartels is "You can take our gold, or you can take our lead.")